Measles without the panic: Dr. James Lyons-Weiler challenges the MMR narrative

0:00I'm Stephanie Coxon and I'm Kathy Anderson Martin and we are two women influencing real live. So let's twirl. It is all over the news. Lauren, I am sure you have heard. Everyone is running in fear of measles. There is no one that is not talking about it. And I don't know. I thought it might be a good idea to bring someone on who actually knows a lot about the measles. How do you feel? Are you afraid of yourself? No, I'm not. I don't know. I don't know. But I should I be. I'm like, I don't fear anything anymore. I'm like, well, if the pangolins in China didn't get me and the bats at the market, I figured like, well, what else can hurt me at this point? Now, I've heard about the measles and I'm like, what is it next?

1:00What is next? But I do. I know a lot of people that are concerned and people that have kids and yeah, I do think this will be helpful. Yeah. I hope this show helps all those people with their questions. So I am Stephanie Coxon. I'm Lauren Muglamp. And we are two women inspiring real life. So let's twirl. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Dr. James Lyons Wiler. You are a molecular biologist. And you've been on the show a couple of times. We always really enjoy you. But give us a, for anyone who's new, could you just give them a little bit of your background? Sure. I'm an evolutionary biologist who went into clinical research in the year 2000. So I'm happy to say I've got 26 years of biomedical and clinical research. Those of you who know me know me very well. And I've been called a polymath. I study very, very hard for everything that I want to understand. And the question of the hour I suppose is, should we be afraid of measles?

2:03And if you look at the news from 2015, 2014 until 2020, the only case fatality rate that is the probability that you're going to die if you have a measles infection at any age, it's cited by US news outlets, sites third world countries, sorry, if anybody's going to be offended that I use the world third world, developing, emerging, however you want it, countries that have poor nutrition, countries that have poor infrastructure for taking care of their loved ones when they do get sick. So if you look at the US surveillance, you'll see some numbers being thrown around these days by Paul Offett, he's trying to push one in 200 as an elevation over one in 400. We can't take that bait either. One in 400 has nothing to do with anything. Listen, I'm not going to get down to the math of why it has nothing to do with anything. But do you know anybody who has had a severe case of measles just as yourself?

3:06Yeah, I don't. But I did recently talk to someone where his whole family had measles. And he said basically, it was three days, no big deal, adults and children, super easy, you know, like that was it. He's like, oh, yeah, it's fine. Everyone had it. It was great. Yeah, the backdrop here is that the left wants to hype up the fear and they use fear porn over infectious disease to make people afraid so they rush out to get the vaccines so that they people that are funding the Democratic National Convention, which is the pharmaceutical companies and big medicine are paid off in massive profits as a result of people being afraid. And so as long as they can keep the public afraid over infectious disease, then we're going to see the DNC pumping, you know, fear pumped by money from big pharma. You know, it's really clear. It's so obviously clear, but Josh Shapiro has done in Pennsylvania in this regard specifically

4:09I want everybody to go to say or g sub stack and read the two or three articles, many are only more articles than that. But you know, six months ago, this organization comes out and, you know, it's like it's an organization designed to what is it save our treatments or something like that. And some organization that is sensibly is about saving medical care as if it's under some kind of threat. There are a mix of a 501 C3 and a 501 C4. There's some questions about where their funding comes from, but they are not making science based recommendations over anything that they've told Josh Shapiro. And when you look at what his people end up saying is completely unwarranted to, you know, I mean, what better way? This is I was talking with the doctor here in Michigan. He said, what better way to remind ourselves that if you give the Democratic National Convention power, the kind of public health messaging that you're going to have over every little

5:13sniffle and, you know, they nearly drove our country right into the ground with lockdowns and everything else over COVID. Now there's a little backstory with Josh Shapiro on this question. He was the lawyer who tried to litigate that, you know, Governor Wolfe could go ahead and shut everything down. The court shoved him down on that, right? And so now he's governor and there's apparently some legislation that says, hey, you know what? More police powers is better when it comes to, you know, monitoring, surveilling the public for infectious disease. So we want to be able to come into your house. We want to be able to talk to people. We want to be able to take samples. All the violation of Fourth Amendment rights. Which the court's correctly recognized. And so now he's trying to push this legislation. And I think that's why they rolled out this, you know, two measles deaths. So there's facts on the ground. I know what I know.

6:13You guys know what you know. I want to leave some space for what the real, what's really happening in Pennsylvania. You know, I just want to add on to what you're talking about that legislation. I would actually, can I read you what section three of that legislation says word for word real quickly? This to me this is shocking. It says, it says section three, pregnancy, venereal disease and other reportable diseases. Any minor, now there's no age to this minor. Any minor may give effective consent for medical and health services, determine the presence of or to treat pregnancy, venereal diseases and or other diseases, reportable under the act of April 23, 1956. Notice the disease prevention and control law of 1955 and the consent of no other person shall be necessary. This means that your 12 or 13 year old could make their own medical decisions go and get an abortion or the HPV vaccine or anything else or the COVID vaccine or the code. That's right.

7:14Like they are literally taken away all the parental rights in this and I do believe you're right that this is what they're trying to do. I think they are manufacturing this scenario in order to push their agenda. But I say slowly, say slowly, they're trying to open a market. That's all they're trying to do. Right. Yes. It does another debate that I had with another doctor over what's happening with Josh Shapiro is, you know, he's like, what is he? Is he stupid? The doctor's like, is he stupid? No, he knows what he's doing. He knows who he answers to. He's executing according to protocol. Okay. And it's really clear that his staff has already put out there that he would like a vice presidential bid. What a better reminder that we cannot allow. And I'm not advocating for the GOP. We just cannot allow the DNC to get control of public health. That's all I'm saying. What you guys all do about that with your political parties and everything else. I'm totally independent. Like you can believe how independent I am.

8:14So take it from a scientist who has to stick by the data. If Josh Shapiro was up for an oral exam for an ecological PhD defense, dissertation defense, he would fail on causality. So can we, let's talk about measles and should people not be afraid, be afraid? Perhaps, for example, from my understanding, people with high vitamin A levels tend to have very, very mild cases of measles. Can we just talk about why we should not be afraid of measles? What do you know the actual numbers of severe side effects of having the actual virus versus the vaccine, all that kind of stuff? Major kids, well, if your kids are fed well, if they have proper nutrition, they're not going to have a severe case of measles almost certainly. You want me to cite some magical number that's like really, really tiny and small.

9:17What's the point? The error bars on those are going to be so big. It's, you know, here's what I want to say. Vitamin A is recognized by the World Health Organization. It's recognized by the CDC. It's published on the website, two large doses of vitamin A reduces the severity in measles and people who have nutrient compromise. That is, they're nutritionally deficient. Okay. Why are they nutrient compromise and nutrient compromise because they're poor? In the omniscommunities that Josh Shapiro is so concerned about, these kids are very well fed for the most part, right? The community takes care of the family, takes care of everything else. Do they take multivitamins? Do they take gummy vitamins? I doubt it. All right. They get their food naturally through natural sources. But once in a while, you have a kid who's immunocompromised and they'll get measles and it'll be severe. But once in a while, you also have a kid who knows it's all too immunocompromised and they'll get the MMR and it will be severe, right? And so how do those numbers compare? I don't even want to have a conversation on the numbers of what happens with measles. Unless on the other hand, I have what happens with the MMR vaccine.

10:18So when measles hits, and it hits every three or four years, right? And it's actually shifting. It used to be longer, right? It happened every four or five years. It's now three or four. It might go down to two or three. There's a cycle, a natural native cycle of the virus. And the human population has been known for years. And that's all we're seeing. We're seeing an uptick. And of course, whoever's doing the wrong thing or saying the wrong thing, whether Bobby Kennedy is the president of CHD at the time, or whether he's a HHS director at the time, whatever he's saying must have caused this measles spike, which is absolutely ridiculous. The measles comes and the measles go and will always do that forever and ever and ever. There's no way to eradicate from the population. And there's no way to make sure that the vaccine that you take is actually going to stop you from getting the infection the same way with COVID. That might shock a lot of people. But it is a well-known fact. And the Japanese scientists published it first. And we're seeing it now with breakthrough infections of measles in the vaccinated that

11:19people who are vaccinated with MMR can become infected with measles to the point where they can shed it. But not that not I'm spread it. I don't mean to say shed shed is from the vaccine. So what are we doing with the fear porn? What we're doing is we're trying to reverse who has the reins of power in government. All right. We're trying to make sure that the people who are handling the huge magnificent $30 billion dollar budget at HHS is not rubberative Kennedy Jr. But one of their patsys, right? Well, somebody that's going to answer to pharma, anybody with Kennedy. And so because Bobby won't play along with him and he never will play along with him, just be really grateful that there are doctors that are out there on social media who are actually talented using our talking points saying, I suppose the so-called anti-vexers are going to say this. And my response to that is, oh, you've been listening. That's good. It's starting to get in there, right? It means that you're actually capable of learning. That's a good thing. When the measles outbreak happened a few years ago, I think it was two cycles ago in the

12:22state of Washington, I actually did a small public donation collection of money to buy vitamin A for the people in Washington state. So I could send the governor of the state of Washington a case of vitamin A capsules that he could distribute to the families that had measles because all he has to do is go to the CDC website. If you have two high doses of vitamin A, it reduces the severity. So it's kind of silly to talk about it in a vacuum, not knowing that people can go down to the drug store and give vitamin A. Right. Interesting. I'm just thinking back too. If I remember correctly to the outbreak in California, they found that patient zero was a vaccinated person who was actually shedding it. And that's where that measles outbreak started. Do you, are you familiar with that? I know that a huge percentage of people in the Disneyland outbreak actually had vaccine

13:24type measles like rash. So they had an active infection from the live attenuated MMR vaccine, whether they shed it or not, I don't know, but patient zero, you know, I don't have that on recall. But when you get a diagnosis of measles, if the medicine, I think it was something like 38% or some huge percentage, and I don't quote me on, I might have been somewhere on there, of the so-called measles cases were actually rashes that looked so much like measles that the doctors misdiagnosed it. And so, you know, we're kind of talking in generalities here, but I do want to point out that we know something about these, at least one of the cases in insulin, that I think it's very important if people haven't paid attention to. The child in question who died did not qualify for MMR vaccination. So anybody that's on social media, they're so young, right? There's a newborn, still born, really. They didn't qualify for that, right?

14:25And so somebody's out there saying, this is the responsibility here is the anti-vaxxers because this child was unvaccinated. It's ridiculous to call a newborn or a stillborn, an unvaccinated individual. They're not even lifting a finger to get facts on the ground. They're just going with the hype and trying to get it out there, but I can't take them seriously. Now, what about those people who will say, well, this is why everyone should be vaccinated because that child cannot be vaccinated. Measles comes and goes in the United States like it does all around the world every three to four years, vaccine or no vaccine. So it doesn't matter. We're not going to get the vaccine. We just talked about how the vaccine actually allows you to have an infection and you can spread it. The Japanese actually said, this is vaccine-induced booster that I have a vaccine. So I got an infection and I'm sitting next to a kid in another school. I have measles and that kid just got a booster in their natural immunity at the time they were thinking because they got my measles virus again for me with an eye-mace symptomatic.

15:31So we have a serious problem here in the United States. I don't think Bobby Kennedy is dealt with it. I don't think anybody at FDA is dealt with it. Certainly nobody at CDC is dealt with it. The fact is, before 2020, we were seeing a 2017-18-19-20, this massive surge of months outbreaks in whole vaccinated schools. And then we saw the case where Mark allegedly admitted in court and the government said it's okay for them to do that. They spiked the Vax, the MMR vaccine, results with rabbit antibodies to make sure that the mumps portion of the immunogenicity, the actually was high enough to be accepted by the FDA. It's outright fraud that the U.S. government at the time said we're on their side. And that court case was all sealed. That went on for years and years and years. And they actually just dismissed it and said, no, we're going to find that it's okay that they did that because the executive branch of the government said it was okay that they did that.

16:31And so what are we really talking about here when it comes to what about the people who say that you should be vaccinated to get it? They don't know anything about the vaccine failure that's happening. If you go to popular rationalism and sub-stack or if you go to the Brownstone Institute who recently republished it, I have a whole analysis of what is happening to the MMR vaccine. There, if the efficacy and effectiveness of the MMR vaccine is dropping to the point where people are going to have breakthrough infections and they're just going to blame the anti-vaxxers, then the real responsibility here are the people that are trying to sell a fraudulent, flawed, ineffective vaccine. I can't say that anymore clearly. Why should I take on the risk of having an adverse reaction from this MMR, which has measles, mumps, and rupella, when I might get the disease anyway and they're going to say, well, it immediately errates the severity of the symptoms. Well, so let's find out what's the vitamin A, right? So let's find out what's the vitamin A.

17:31So listen, we need some head-to-head comparisons. I'm a scientist. There's never been a head-to-head comparison of Vax versus UnVax. I say, let's do 100,000 people who are vaccinated and see who's healthier when it comes to being exposed to vitamin A doses or MMR vaccine. What do you think the outcome of that trial is going to be? I would go with vitamin A, any other example. Before we could say anything. I'm not going to lie. I was reading some stuff where measles reduces certain types of cancers and apparently a portion of cardiovascular risk. And I'm like, hmm, I wonder if I could go hang out with some of these measles. And found out people. I mean, it's not off the table. I'm just saying. I'm just going to ask you. Here's the problem with those. Here's the problem. Again, that's not an experiment. That's just observational data from a big population study, right? There are also finding things like shingles vaccine reduces vascular dementia and other kinds of dementia, like Alzheimer's apparently. How do we know this is not survivor bias? How do we know that that's not due to the fact that the people who got the shingles vaccine

18:34actually got sick and died later on that we're going to have dementia? Because it's not a controlled trial, we can't know. If we're going to have science-based policy, then let's have science-based policy. The best way for public health to gain respect again as a scientific endeavor is to do science for the first time. Let's actually have real science behind our public statements about what's happening to individual patients, what's happening in studies. Why isn't Josh Shapiro saying that he's going to contract UPMC to do Vax versus Unvex studies and look at the outcome too. So he has something to back him because they don't want those kinds of studies. I would love to see a head-to-head comparison of vitamin A versus un-MMR. I think that's really high priority for our country. This is only going to get worse. It's going to happen over and over and over again. We're going to have vaccinated people that are finally upset that they got beat measles like they did with COVID. Now, what's going to happen when you have a vaccinated kid that dies when they had measles? All right? Because that's not going to be in the news. They're not going to let that happen. What's going to happen to that person, to that family?

19:35They're going to be very upset. They're going to come out and say, this vaccine killed my child or this virus killed my child after even though they're vaccinated and public health is going to deny, deny, deny, deny. The only safe place for this kind of discussion is in the context of randomized clinical trials. Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. So I'm going to go ahead. No, I'm just going to ask, so I'm the least intelligent person on this spot just right now by a long shot. Can I have to ask the, the, well, I'm just going to ask, so I say the goofy question. How does exactly, because we were having this discussion recently, how does measles manifest? How do I know I have the measles? What does it look like? All I know is I got my vaccine. I was kind of doctor. So don't know what he, please diagnose yourself. No, no, no, no, I just don't know what it means. But it's an important question, Lauren. And here's why people don't realize measles is a respiratory infection. Okay. Okay. And then you end up with little dots on your skin and it might spread all over.

20:41Just like think about the Brady bunch with all the dots, right? Yeah. My son Ben actually, when he was very young, we heard about measles. And so he took red dots stickers and put them all over his body. And he said, I want to have the measles now. So I don't have to worry about it. It was like three years old, right? He's giving you something. That's fantastic. Like brilliant. It is brilliant. You can have a cough and a fever and all the rest of you feel malaise for three to five days or whatever. But if you look at the Merck manual, look at the Merck manual anytime before 1986, measles is a mild non-series childhood illness that has a pro-dromal period of three to five days and then a symptomatic period of three to five days. And then mom or dad can go back to work after about a week. That's what the vaccine program has done. It's caused parents to be used to not having to go to stay home with their kids when they have these mild childhood illnesses like chickenpox and like, oh, by the way, another symptom

21:42of measles infection, lifelong immunity. But that's it. That's what. No, no, no. No one said, I had the MMR. I'm hearing the measles right now, right? So what's going to happen? That's exactly right. And measles can be very, very serious with the tauts. So make sure that you get proper nutrition and take care of yourself and. Why do we lump measles, mumps, rubella, all in to one? Why? You know, let me just throw this out here. We've got one minute to break. We may need more time to answer that particular question. Oh, maybe not. That's too complicated. Look, I don't know. Can you get it done in a minute? I think it's my fourth grade. Yeah, I can get it done in about a minute since we took 30 seconds of it to talk about whether you have time to talk about. I'm sure that the reason why they lumped it together was because they saw an economic opportunity to outcompete all the other companies that were going to produce a rubella vaccine, a mumps vaccine, and a measles vaccine, they lumped them all together and they could say, they just licensed us for all of it. This is a three for one.

22:42It's really that is that I wasn't even expecting that. I was not expecting that. So there's no actual benefit to them being together. It was just putting it all because I know one study that showed that it's not going to be better to do all three or then one. Yeah. Very. Yeah. Definitely. It is kind of fascinating. I'd love to get in some of the Andrew Wakefield stuff because that's kind of what kicked off a lot of stuff in 1998. And it kind of goes with our question of these three going together. So maybe after break, we can get in that just a little bit in case people have not heard how that, you know, how his kind of research came out and why he got so much trouble, let's say. Let's hold on there. We'll go to break, come back and answer that question. Tired of news that lectures you instead of informing you, America out loud is the network that still believes that you can handle the truth. Doctors, Constitution, scholars, patriots who won't swallow the script, many voices one freedom united in the First Amendment.

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26:49use AI for weapons or surveillance? They promised they agreed to in 2018. When American people have seen Google's track record prompt in the question, is Google and untrustworthy player in the AI race? Now is our time, my fellow Americans, America out loud.news, liberty, and justice for all. Okay, let's dive into, because it's okay, into the MMR vaccine, 1998, and the concerns that came about that kind of kicked off people becoming aware that maybe vaccines are not as great as we thought they were. Yeah, thanks for the opportunity on that. So if you put me and Andy in the room, I'm going to say he's the smartest kid in the room. If you haven't seen Andy Wakefield give his presentation, I think it was an autism

27:54one conference many years ago now. It has a paper on measles, right? He is absolutely a true blue scientist physician. His man's reputation has been castigated. Everybody assumes that he's like some kind of a fraud or this or that. And Mary Holland has written an opus on the real story of Andrew Wakefield. So I'm going to point people to those two so we can keep this relatively brief. But Wakefield study along with, I think the six or seven co-authors, when he did that study, it was a result of parents, mostly moms coming to him and saying there's something happening in the GI tract of our kids with autism after the MMR. That was the question. And if you go and actually read the paper, if you talk about Wakefield on social media and have them read the paper, just don't even show up on my account. I don't want to talk to you. Go read the paper, okay? Because he actually never posed and his co-authors never posed that MMR causes autism in the paper, not even in the paper.

28:56So what did the Lancet retract for? The Lancet retract for it retracted that there was some discussion of autism around the MMR exposure, something about autism and MMR together being in the same room through the fear of God into work and the national health service over in the UK. Now why would they react that way? When you come up to somebody and you make an accusation and you're getting close to the truth and they get violently defensive, what does that tell you? Right? Yeah, I mean, brown to something. Yeah. There's an appropriate reaction of somebody accuses you of killing your own loved one. Yeah. You say, of course, no one do that. Of course, you know, immediately reject what these guys did is they hired, I presume, I don't have the actual paper, paper works. So they hired a guy to write an article about Andrew Wakefield that dragged his name through the mud. So they were daring to answer one of the press's questions. You think that there's some possible link between the vaccine and autism and he said, yeah,

29:59the problem that possibly could be because he's an objective scientist. The question had never been studied, right? So the argument was, well, he's a fraud because he actually gave kids some compensation for coming to a birthday party consented by the parents to take blood draws so they could be part of the study. Recompensating the children, it's routine, matter of routine, my IRB just reviewed a proposal just now today where people were going to be compensated for being part of a study, right? At that time in the UK, it was like, oh my God, that's unethical, unethical. Another one of the allegations of Andy was that he actually, he was accused of being party to or working for some lawyers that were working out some lawsuit or something like that. And then the actual US government pays doctors to be witnesses to defend vaccines and lawsuits, right? So there's the entire double standards and tire double standards. And so Andy's solution wasn't stop vaccination.

31:04His solution was maybe there's too much antigen at one time if there's a there. So if you asked him at the time, maybe there's a there there on vaccines and other MMR and autism, he would have said, well, we don't know, but you know, what can we do about it? He would say, well, we have to do randomized clinical trial. Well, what can we do if we are not going to do randomized clinical trial? They said them break them up. Okay. So as that period of molecular biology was coming of age and people were being involved in vaccines and everything else, another accusation was he had a conflict of interest because he had some interest in a potential vaccine that only had like that had broken up the MMR. Now to the extent that everybody in biomedicine might have some interest. And doing something that helps public health. If he thinks of breaking them, breaking it up might be safer. Why wouldn't he have some interest in doing that? You know, I'm going to defend him to that because everybody I know on biomedical research has some conflict of interest.

32:04But you know, this was the heaven going on for a long time, 1971, the MMR is introduced in the introduced and the combined MMR in the United States in the UK. And this is why that period of time is interesting. The MMR entered the routine sheltered immunization schedule replacing the single measles vaccine in 1988. So the reason why the parents came and said, hey, wait a minute, this is new. I've asked these people over here who had the single MMR, sorry, the single, the measles only vaccine, they don't have GI tract issues. My sister, her kids around the old program, they don't have GI tract issues. So it was literally the UK population coming up with observations and all science starts with observations that says, hey, there may be a thing here. Who do we turn to? Oh, by the way, they have serious gastroenteritis, gastrointestinal. And yeah, so that's how Andy got involved. And I think, you know, to twist what he got, by the way, there was a co-author who managed

33:06to afford to keep lawyers long enough to get his reputation back and get his, get his license to practice medicine back. So same paper, same issues, it was, it was heard in a court in the UK and he won. So that means that if Andy just had enough money and stayed with the program and fought in the court, he would have won too. So we have a real problem with misunderstanding and or, and or wake field. But I haven't heard anybody blame wake field this time for anything, right? What's going on? Well, and I would say this, this is a normal in medicine. If you look at the guy who was healing cancer using proteolytic enzymes back in the late, late 1800s, early 1900s, he was taken out of medicine. The doctor who insisted on hand washing to prevent disease spread between birthing mothers kicked out of, kicked out of medicine. You started up coldly's toxins and you're talking about some wise and you're talking about

34:07go ahead, continue. Yeah, and then, and then of course we have the doctor who said, oh, wait a second, sugar's not good for you, okay? Also kicked out of medicine. So this, this is, this is not a new strategy for our, for our medical society or our medical association, right? This is something that they do routinely to prevent these doctors for thinking, from thinking outside of the box. Now, all of these doctors have been proven later on to, to be correct. So we now know that within 10 minutes of eating sugar, your, your T cell response drops significantly, right? So, so all of these guys have been proven correct, just not within their time. There are those examples. I have no idea about how many people were kicked out of medicine for doing things that were weren't quite crazy, right? So, you know, there's a balance on that equation, but I'll tell you what, I've looked at Andy in the eye, I know him, I consider him a close personal friend now. And one of my favorite moments was when I just sat there with my jaw open, watching him present his talk on the natural history of measles.

35:11It's a wonderful paper. We should put the paper in the show notes. If you want to understand measles, learn from Dr. Wakefield, he's an amazing person. So, so what do we do about it going going from here? Josh Shapiro is, is going to stick to his guns. He's going to try to say by by some twist of logic that this person that died from a spleen of injury, who knows where that came about? Is that a vaccine injury? No, is that damage to the baby, the way that they were born? Who knows? But with the belly was filled with blood and it was a spleen of injury. Our hearts go out to the parents for whatever, you know, the family and the community, but whatever the cause of death, no doctor that I've talked to said that that's consistent with a measles infection. Right. So where do we go from here? You know, we're going to have to have some determination on who has the final say in the cause of death in people that have infectious infections at the time that they die.

36:11And how dare big medicine think that they're any good at that when over 90% of the people who died on a ventilator from COVID died from bacterial pneumonia or sepsis. Yeah. They know this in the hospital. So they couldn't even get the diagnosis in the cause of death right for all of those people who died from COVID because they're going to cash in their $30,000 check from, you know, the protocol, the Fauci protocol, you have to follow the Fauci protocol or you don't get paid. So I don't want to hear from people that are saying somehow Bobby Kennedy is responsible for this. It's a good thing we have Bobby in office. They tried to see an end, tried to bring out the old Somoa story again, like they've got some goods on him or something when he was invited there to go do a medical informatics question about, you know, what's happening? Are there people that are dying here from measles that they shouldn't be dying from? And look into how they could track and differentiate that. Now in Bobby's mind, I was actually party to actually getting him invited to Somoa.

37:15In Bobby's mind at the time, I'm not speaking for the man, but in Bobby's mind at the time, it was an open question. What was going on there? Why were people dying? Well, it turned out in Somoa, do you know how hard it is to get properly refrigerated MMR vaccine deep into the, you know, I can imagine. Yeah. Yeah. And so the actual provenance of the vaccine was a problem and there were people that were coming like Edward Tumisees, who came out very wealthy plantation owner, wanted to protect his people saying these doctors are vaccinating people who are infected. They're giving them MMR while their immune suppression is suppressed by the measles virus. What are you doing? Right. So, and then he actually got in trouble at Edwin got in trouble. But you know, here's the thing. I was in medical research for many, many, many years and I did over a hundred studies with researchers. Most people in medicine that I worked with, I did over a hundred studies. They really want to help their patients.

38:17I always try to say this because they sound like I'm just some kind of crazy man, ranting against maybe got a chip on my shoulder, maybe I'm pissed off about what happened. You know, they're no longer working there. Belonie. Most of these people at UPMC in Pittsburgh and at Allegheny, general, you mass men, all of these people that are worked with and their collaborators, universities, San Francisco, all the Harvard University are working people there. They care about their patients and they want to find good medicine that they can commercialize in this capitalist society, bring it to market and help where medicine falls down is confronting and being honest and having high integrity about adverse events is not just vaccines. We absolutely must reform all of medicine when it comes to adverse events. I received Chicago should apply at HHS right now and call Bobby and say, I want to set up a center for Ayurge and a killness. I want to study the best way to reduce these side effects from drugs.

39:17Why not? You know, I think part of the issue, I'll be honest, I saw, you know, a recent experience, my daughter needed to take something very in the hospital. She had a very bad side effect from the medication. The doctor said that could not possibly be from the medication only, you know, if you take a certain way, she didn't get that way. And I said, but she's having it. Well, no, it doesn't work that way. So there's like the plausible deniability. It's right there in front of the doctor's face and he said, oh, no, that's not it. That's definitely not it. She knows it's great. Somebody they have to have a prescription for a treatment. They have to have a diagnosis. He wasn't willing to give a false diagnosis. Okay. Here's what I'm proposing. And Michigan has a bill. I wrote the bill. Ohio might pick it up. If anyone vaccinate anyone in the United States of America, this should be something all states pick up on. The person vaccinating has to explain if you have any of these acknowledged adverse events that we have.

40:17This is the medicine for that. So come back to me. That's it. Just practice medicine. We're not asking you to go through the whole informed consent and list all the adverse events. We just want you to reassure the patients that you have medicine for the adverse events that HHS recognizes that science recognizes right. It's on the product information sheet that the FDA has said have to be there and on the joint published CDC and FDA vaccine information. She's why won't doctors do that because the law doesn't require them to every state, including Pennsylvania, Commonwealth of Pennsylvania should pass a law that if you give a vaccine, you have to know what you're going to do about a vaccine injury. It's very, very important. That actually does seem very important and recognize it. I think one of the big issues is that not only does the doctor not recognize the side effect, but the patient also does not necessarily recognize the side effect because they're not taught what the side effects could possibly be. So you have two parties going and completely blind with a medication.

41:19And that to me is disturbing because we're trusting these doctors to know all of this. That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. So we codify it so that medical boards who answer to the governor's right under the law have to make sure that doctors that are giving vaccines and pharmacists that are giving vaccines give full information over what to do if you experience adverse events. If you experience X, Y, or Z come back to us because we have these medicines or supplements, I don't care what the treatment is. And I think that leads into the other question is because pharmacists are allowed to give vaccines in some states. And if that's the case, does the pharmacists have the ability to treat the side effects once the vaccine is given? No, they have the ability to fill the script and remember pharmacists have taken upon themselves to be another gatekeeper on what pharma will and will not give to the public, right? They would not fill Ivermectin scripts, right? So if you're going to profit, if you're practice or your pharmacy profits from vaccines, then the law would state you have to know what to do if somebody has an adverse reaction.

42:21It's the most natural thing in the world. Oh, there's a lot that needs to be done. It's uphill battle. I know one of my frustrations in watching this whole measles issue, I'm going to say manufactured issue is that the secretary of the DOH should know better, right? Full doctor standing before all of Pennsylvania who as constituents want to trust in the system and her delivering false information, flat out false information creates such a distrust for everybody and everything and everything. And it's just such a disservice. So if I assume that Josh Shapiro has good intentions, right, let's just assume, you know, he's

43:23not a medical doctor, he really doesn't know, he's just listening to other people. This person is in a position to be that authority, to be calm and help people understand what to do, not put them into panic. Let's be clear about this. We were talking about his doctor Deborah Bogin and Josh Shapiro's only hope politically of saving any face is to fire her for misleading him and dump it on her because this was a really, really bad, bad thing to happen to Shapiro right now. I mean, it couldn't have played out worse for him politically, right? And this is assuming that he has good intentions. I'm just going to throw it. I was going to say this does not assume that he has good intentions. This assumes he's a draconian politician actually. Okay. If you put yourself in Josh Shapiro's whether you're a good guy who according to one of my articles on popular rationalism, go and find it where he and his wife believe that you should have choice over vaccines. Did you know that?

44:25I did not know that. Well, not a quantum legislation. He's pushing, but go ahead. But his spoken words in an interview where that the party that left is the party of choice and left is the party of freedom. You should be able to read the books that you want to read and take or not take the vaccines you don't want. That's the same Josh Shapiro when the last year who said that. I have an article on that. Well, if he's going to put up a viable front where he's going to get any votes from the Democrats, sorry, the moderate Democrats. And Pennsylvania is a very funny state, right? Are you going to John's town? Find a John's town Democrat. You're talking to a Republican state, right? So you take a look at this. If he's going to have any political viability in Pennsylvania or beyond, he's going to have to save some face. And I would challenge him to try to do this without finding somebody's head to chop off from misleading him because Stephanie's point is so correct. He's a lawyer. He has no business knowing what the cause of death means versus, you know, probable, likely, you know, he has a, that's not his job.

45:26His job is governor. So his advisors misled him and he actually did harm to the public's confidence and public health. He's going to have to let Dr. Brogan go. Yeah, I think that's actually in order to rebuild trust. It's almost necessary. You just can't do it. Yeah, I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. This could be his, this could be his demise. I, you know, he's caught so red handed, so red handed. I mean, you know, and you're right, Lord, I don't disagree. I don't think it will happen. But he's already trying to. Let's start a poll is it's betting legal on on action. I can't. I'm telling you what I'll tell you what, tell you what, tell you what, I'll put, I'll place a wager right here to make it real. I will come to both of your houses and wash your windows. Oh, they need it. They need it. He does it. That's how low likelihood you will not be cleaning my windows. I promise you. Okay.

46:26No, if he does it, if he fires Deborah Bogan, yeah, that's what I mean. Windows it. You're safe. You're safe. Okay. No, because it still means it still means he has to shoulder that error. It's firing her. It still means he has to admit. If you're the president of the United States, if somebody does something and there's a gun on your face, you either wear it yourself or you fire somebody. You should. He's not going to wear it himself. He's not going to go out with the show. So who, so who is it? So we don't think Deborah is going to be going and we know that Josh has to do something to save, to save himself. Who is the fall guy? Probably going to believe Andrew Wakefield, actually. That's all he's got. I mean, this is the thing, right? To them, they're going to want to bring in some other event in Pennsylvania. Watch my, mark my words. There'll be some other big event that will steal the news cycle. It'll be medical. One of the reasons. It'll be some other tragedy catastrophe. Hold on to your hat, Spencer, because it's coming.

47:27This is the remote. When people said to me, what, what, when we, when the rest of the world figures out what we know about COVID, how are they going to dig themselves out of this? I said, because it's going to be a war. Next thing you know, Ukraine. Boom. There you go. Oh boy. Yeah. Oh boy. He's her head spinning and they can't figure it out. Don't let them think for a minute. Your peace of mind is so important. Now for anybody who's lost a loved one to measles ever, I looked up the rates for you. Okay. It's like one and a thousand and that's a stretch. But one and a thousand is like point two point one percent. It's a tiny, tiny percentage. So anybody who's lost measles, lost a loved one to measles, my heart goes out to you. Anyone who's lost a loved one to MMR, any other vaccine, my heart goes out to you. That's the conversation that we need every American citizen to adopt and have right now. So these politicians can stop dividing us on these nonsense issues. It's absolutely critically important that the Democrats who I know love and trust use

48:32the brains that God gave them. Use the brains that God gave them and say I am being manipulated to think that those people on the other side are evil because they're actually using their brains and they figure things out. That doesn't make us evil. But when I'm not on the other side, I'm right in the middle. It makes sense. You know, I find it interesting on my Facebook page. I, for some reason, I don't know why this would be, but I swear I have every doctor who is blaming the anti-vaxxers right now on, on everything, right? I mean, absolutely everything. And I don't believe that's by accident. And I know that the pro-vaxxers are getting all the anti-vaccine messages right now as well. And I believe that's just all by design to make sure that we all hate each other. And I just wish that people would wake up to that and say and realize what they're doing, right? This is all purposeful and it's to divide. And it's because they know that the majority of people really cannot distinguish the truth, right? There's so much information coming at us.

49:35It is almost always propaganda and most of us cannot discern which is real and which is not real. I like Jack's term. I don't know how I haven't heard fear porn before. That's really what everybody is scared. Nobody wants to look. I know people and we have this discussion. Did you, I always am amazed when somebody says, did you get vaccinated? I'm like, just a ball. I don't really know if that's your business or not. No, I didn't. But did you? Did you? What did you think about this? How many times did you get the booster? Have a bravala. Everybody, from most of the people that I know did what they did because they were scared. And that's that whole mantra that builds and builds. That's the sad part. That's what makes me sad about all this. I feel for you and that's a hard place to be. No one's going to put yourself on a healing journey except for you. You have to put yourself on a healing journey where you have to know the difference. If somebody's gaslighting you, that means that they're telling you one thing on Wednesday and on Thursday they tell you the opposite.

50:35They're trying to tell you back and forth. Your reaction should not be, you're so much smarter than me just tell me what to do. Right. If you find yourself doing that, that's the clue to you. That itself is the clue to you for you to stop, look at that person and say, stop gaslighting me. Yep. Yep. That in that moment, you take control of the situation. You don't know the answer yet, but you at least have defeated the gaslighting. So now you can think. You're entitled to figure it out for yourself. You guys know where to find me. Popular rationalism. I'm packing to you dot online. Come on. It's a social media setting where we're not going to have any baloney in there. It's all learning. It's all about teaching and learning and research and science. It's wonderful. You know, I have a completely different method when someone approaches me and asks me inappropriately of any medical history. Like they used to ask me, you know, are you going to get the Vax or did you get Vax or whatnot? And my response is always, do you have herpes? Yeah. Or did you tell me what to do to the bathroom this morning?

51:36That's why I was. It I hate to say it. Most people don't want to hear the truth. They don't want to know. But when you give them a little bit of a shock, like, oh, they actually back down. And for me, the worst ones during COVID were the, I'm good. Look, I'm going to stereotype here every single one of them. When someone's yelling at me, it was a tall white man. I don't know why these people thought that it was appropriate to approach me and get within my six feet. I mean, they're the ones that were scared. Not me. I'm happy to give you a hug as you yell at me. I don't care. But the only they didn't care about science. The only thing they cared about was when I said, okay, Karen, thank you. Then they would stop. So that's how I started dealing with these irrational people. I have to confess. I'm scratching my head here because I have to confess. I don't remember anybody ever asking me if I took the shot. Oh, I don't know why. I don't know why. Maybe it's because I was the guy that came out and said that there was 21% adverse event reactions after the shots.

52:38And the press tried to shut me down and fact check me and I fact checked them back and I was right and they were wrong. I mean, maybe it's because I decided to actually speak up when I saw that something was wrong really, really loudly, right? And maybe they just read my mind and they know that I'm going to say, hell no, I didn't take the shot. But it's also done in their business. And I wouldn't want anybody to follow me just because what my choices are. That's the other thing. Yeah, for sure. That's what I said. I was always amazed when I was asked. And like, I really, I don't care. I just, I always had to laugh. I know many people that got the shot. And my, my mantra the entire time was, you got to do you do whatever you feel is right. I don't care when we are the other. Like, it's your life. But when they ask, they're like, I don't really care if you did or not. I'm just very curious. Did you? And I'd say, no, I didn't. Well, why? And then it was immediate hatred, like immediate hatred because I didn't. And I was like, well, this is why I didn't really want to discuss it.

53:39And I just, I just didn't see the need. Well, why? Why do you think you're smarter than I am? I don't. I just didn't really. Honestly, I laughed at a lot of it. If it ever happens again, you can say I was concerned about pathogenic priming and then go look it up. Okay. There you go. I have these terms when I need it. I think I said you have two new terms to walk out. I know. I'm going to change your life. Pathogenic priming. I've got to get that on my license plate. Pathogenic priming. Exactly. Yeah. So, you know, I would like, I would like to see Deborah put under the spotlight about and maybe maybe there would be a interest on the in Harrisburg to have some kind of a hearing or an investigation about how she got us wrong. It's very important. These are, these are serious times to do this to the American public after they've just kind of got their back, back on their feet over COVID to try to pull this. Yeah. And actually, I think that's a great idea. Do you think there needs to be hearing that is a public record that people can see?

54:40Questions can be asked and answered. You know, this needs to be a public form when people can see all the questions and things are not twisted, turned into AI, chopped up or anything else, right? Because they're in there. No, no, they'll still twist it. When I gave public testimony in the Allegheny County Board of Pulse, you should have seen how they mangled our side of the testimony. They would leave out half sentences. They would get our names wrong. They would state an opposite of what we said that that note taker, whoever took the notes was just horrible when it came to our. Oh, I met a mistake. It was just a mistake. We're so sorry. Yeah. Right. Right. And the apologies on page 20. If there's a process, is there a populist process in Pennsylvania for having a public hearing on something? You know, I don't, I don't think so. I think it's really up to either a senator or you reach out. You know, you reach out. Like I actually did. They reached out to my state legislator and just asked like, what are the chances of this? Whether you do the hearing, whether you open it, you know, whether you make it a public

55:43hearing or, well, I don't think it should be. Of course, it should be a problem. But yeah. 100%. Well, whoever, whoever the, I think they set their own rules in our state. So the senator, whoever's in charge of the hearing actually sets the rules for the hearing, whoever the majority gets to actually set the rules, which is kind of interesting. So, you know, I think it's also a fair statement to say, not just head hunting and heads have to roll. That's Shapiro's political move. Yeah. But how did she get it wrong? What went wrong with her evidence collection, the inference, what references she was looking at? How did she get it wrong? Did she not know what she was supposed to say? I mean, this is an important series of questions that have to be answered. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on the show. We have to wrap it up. I want everyone to know to go to popular rationalism. You can follow all of this. You know, Dr. James Lonswiler is amazing on, staying on top of all of this stuff. It's important. Don't walk out of your house in fear.

56:44Make good logical decisions based on true science. And you know, like we say, every single week, stand up, step forward and speak out.