Mayor Mamdani's Push to Build at Sunnyside Yard

0:00Bray and Lairr on WNYC. So in May of M. Donnie visited the White House recently. The big news was that President Trump offered his support for a big new housing development in sunny-side queens. But how do people in the neighborhood feel about it? Our housing reported David Brand joins us now to explain the pros, the cons, and the politics of the sunny-side yards project. We'll also touch on a court ruling Friday that will allow landlords to discriminate. Yes, I said allow landlords to discriminate against people using government housing vouchers to pay their rent. Hi, David, always good to have you on the show. Hey, Brian, thanks for having me. For the uninitiated, what is sunny-side yards? Well, I think a lot of people have probably passed sunny-side yards and never really thought twice about it, except maybe questioning how there's this massive train yard, this massive open space

1:06surrounded by these giant skyscrapers of Long Island City. And you've seen all of the development take place in Western Queens right around the rail yard and in LIC and in parts of sunny-side. And then there's just this huge open train yard, one of the biggest and busiest in the country. So this plan that M. Donnie went to DC to talk to Trump about would be to build a giant platform over this rail yard and add thousands of new apartments and other elements of a city neighborhood. Can you walk us through the proposal? This goes back to the de Blasio administration, doesn't it? Yeah, so about six or seven years ago, I was running a daily paper in Queens called the Queens Daily Eagle, and I was covering the master planning process that de Blasio's economic development corporation was having with neighborhood residents, neighborhood groups in around sunny-side. And then finally, in March 2020, they released this plan for this proposed project with 12,000

2:09affordable homes, so homes apartments with rents cap for low and mostly middle income renters. About two weeks later though, you know, something else happened in March 2020. The COVID pandemic hit, Queens became the epicenter, and this project just kind of died. And now the Mondadi administration is reviving it, bringing it back from the dead after about six years or so. 12,000, that's a lot of homes, and I know one of the things that people in the neighborhood are raising, and I'll read a quote or two from things I've seen, is that this place is too much infrastructure pressure on one neighborhood that already doesn't have a lot of, let's say, transportation in the city. You try to get on the subway, multiple people who live there have told me. You try to get on the subway at like 46th and Bliss on the 7th train to go to work in the morning. You're already often have to wait for two, three trains to come by before you can

3:10even, you know, squeeze yourself onto one of the cars, and there aren't a lot of other ways to get into Manhattan. So you're going to add 12,000 more homes there, and then there's the area being considered a flood zone because of how it's set. So 12,000 new homes, is that the big issue? Well, I think we shouldn't look at this as like this is a done deal, and this is what's going to happen. You know, there was a planning process, they had a pretty elaborate planning documents from six years ago. A lot has changed. Most of all, the biggest change has been the price tag back then in 2020. They said it would, they estimated it would cost $14 billion. Now Mamdani administration estimates this, you know, pretty amorphous project. We don't have like concrete details here would cost $21 billion, and I imagine that price tag would rise. They would factor in transportation. All of the infrastructure required just to build this platform over this massive open train yard. You

4:11know, they say it's about 160 square acres. Before I came on, I was like, you know, we always talk about these project in acres, but maybe people comprehend that if they're talking about like farming corn or something, like how many city blocks would that be? I think the average city blocks about five acres. So this would be adding like 30 or 40 new blocks. I think the potential beauty of the project is it would be over a train yard, and simultaneously as there's been conversations about decking over to build housing, you know, they used to think about building a football stadium or office buildings. And all along, they've talked about adding new transit infrastructure. So it would be hard to imagine adding a new residential neighborhood without improving or adding transportation as well. But again, I think we just step back and this is so far away from becoming a reality that there's going to be a lot of opportunities to, I think, negotiate or debate what else should go there besides housing. And I think, you know, this isn't like a done deal, and not going to happen in the first term of the mom tidy administration. That's for sure.

5:15Maybe they would get closer to some type of plan or some type of financing or funding. And the news coverage, you know, was that photo op for the most part of Mamdani and Trump at the White House together and Trump holding up that mock daily news cover, along with the real ancient daily news cover from 1973, the famous one that said forward to city, drop dead. And then they made this fake one, you know, Mamdani and Trump together, I guess, with Trump holding the two of them side by side, the new one, the mock one saying, Trump to city, let's build instead of forward to city, drop dead, which made it look, I think, to the general public like this was only between Trump and Mamdani or only needed to be between the president and the mayor. But council member Julie Warren, city council member from the area, said the community deserves a seat at the table and seems to indicate that she doesn't think they have one yet.

6:20So how much of this process do you think is going to officially involve the local community? And really David, a larger question, you know, we're in this moment where supposedly there are so many forces who might have been opposed in a local NIMBY way, even for decent local NIMBY reasons, who now are kind of exceeding to the, you know, necessity of building many more housing units in New York City overall, that some of the old objections are either starting to fade or being pressured out. So I wonder how you see Julie Warren as a local council member, who might otherwise have, you know, in the old days, meaning last year, have had veto power over this. Where does she stand now? Well, Julie, one, I think her main argument to get, not against the project because she said, you know, she supports building affordable housing and

7:23wants to see something get built. But her initial stance here is that the community has to be involved and there was a lot of community workshops and involvement leading up to that 2020 master plan. But even then, a lot of organizations that a lot of residents and civic groups said they still felt left out. So I think any plan just to become more politically palatable and gain the support of people in the area would definitely need to have some type of community engagement portion. I mean, it is a huge plan. You know, you asked what would the, what would that look like though? What would the process for getting this approved and getting this built actually be? And that's something we don't know. You know, the city's typical land use process does require a lot of pre-planning and then a formal review process for anything that requires a rezoning ballot measures that voters approved in November. Change that so that even if the local council member, who used to, as you say, have veto power over a project like that, that could now go before an appeals panel

8:29with the mayor, the local borough president, who in this case Donovan Richards says he supports it and the city council speaker who could then override of that kind of veto or a no vote. But we don't even know if this would go through the city's typical land use review process. What happens and what we've seen in a lot of major projects, including at Hudson Yards, another project to deck over a train yard and build housing and then a less successful project Atlantic Yards, where 20 some years ago they said they were going to deck over and much smaller rail yard and build housing on top. They haven't even completed the platform there two decades later. Those both went through a state process called the General Project Plan, where that bypasses a typical community input in city land use review process. So we could see that here. We could see some combination. They might break this into parcels based on what entity owns it, Amtrak versus MTA or maybe they identify a place where it would be much easier to build instead of going over

9:32the entire platform or I'm sorry the entire train yard and one fell swoop. So we're going to see as more details emerge here, but we don't know that much yet. Anybody from sunny side listening or one island city or any other place that might be directly affected by this what's starting out as a Trump bomb Donnie agreement to try to build around 12,000 housing units. Many of them below market rate over the sunny side yards there. 212433 WNYC or anyone else? 212433 9692. Call or tax for a housing reported David Brand. And yes, we will still touch on the court ruling on Friday that will allow landlords to discriminate against people using government housing vouchers to pay their rent. Anybody listening in that position? 212433 WNYC went to or landlord? 212433 9692. Call

10:37or text here on WNYC and Pia in Long Island City here on WNYC. Hello, Pia. Hi, my name is Pia. I'm running for a assembly district 37, which includes the sunny side yard. I believe our community voice must be heard. When WNYC was being planned, there were multiple town halls and real community feedback and that process matters. I moved to Queens after living in front of Atlantic yards in Brooklyn where the years of construction and traffic it had such a huge impact on me and other residents. We do need more affordable housing but it has to come with a clear plan, a strong vision and real input from the community. So with the rapid growth of sunny side yard and we need thoughtful development that works for the people who already live here. So for you running for the state assembly to represent people in that district,

11:39what would that look like? I think you're trying to be open to new affordable housing because you know the city needs new affordable housing. You're saying it has to be sustainable for the people who live there. What would that look like to you to meet that standard? We need to have a community town hall or we need to hear what the community wants to be open to. I think this project was kind of pulled where a lot of when I was talking to a lot of people who live in sunny side that they were not aware that this was going to happen. They are worried about being priced out. They're worried that they can't live here long term. So I believe that we should be having input from our community. When De Blasio floated this, Pia, back in his administration when this first was introduced, some Queens elected officials, including AOC, the way I understand it, and

12:43then City Council Member Jimmy Van Braemer pushed back hard over gentrification concerns. Is that a concern of yours? Yes, absolutely, but I do think we need more housing, but we have to make sure that the people who live here are not going to be priced out. I went, I lived in front of Atlantic Yards on Pacific Street, and now sunny side yard will be behind me in Long Island City and the resident that I live at. And with these rapid growth of developments, it pushes out people. And we need to think of a thoughtful process where and a clear plan and a strong vision that gets real community input. When I lived in some of Atlantic Yards, there was so much traffic and so much construction in the middle of the morning that I couldn't live there anymore, it became unbearable. And that's why I moved to Queens.

13:47And I think with this, we just need real thoughtful development and a timeline and making sure that the people who live here their whole lives are not priced out. Pia, thank you very much for your call. David, there's the eternal or one of the eternal contradictions in affordable housing development plans, right? That whatever percentage of something, if it's not 100%, being below market rate housing, there's going to be some market rate housing that comes with it and it's going to be new and it's going to be attractive. And so even though it's sold to communities as adding more affordable housing there, the net effect might be to push out property values there and that gentrifies the area. Are you hearing that a lot with respect to this? Definitely hearing that in the opposition. And that comes up with a lot of major projects.

14:53But I think there has been somewhat of a change since 2019, which I think can help explain why a lot of people on the left have begun to embrace this kind of development. And that's because the protections for tenants are so much stronger now than they were even in early 2019. We have rent stabilization protections at the state level that were enacted that really get rid of the incentives for landlords to evict tenants or try to get tenants out of their building so that they could raise rents significantly. And I think that plays in here. So if you're a tenant and rent stabilized apartment in the area, there's not such a risk that the landlord's going to see dollar signs and say, all right, if I can get this tenant out, I can raise the rent. And then I could get that rent to a certain threshold and deregulate the apartment and then make as much money as the market will bear. I think that's one thing. And then more recently, there's another law called the Good Cause Eviction Law, which offers protections to tenants who don't live in

15:54rent stabilized apartments where they can challenge what's in the law is called egregious rent increases basically above like 9%. So there are definitely more protections. And I think at the same time, there's also more of an understanding of the city really does need housing. All that being said, if you make an area more desirable, it definitely will raise property values in the surrounding area and definitely make it harder for to buy a home or to pay rising property taxes or if you're not in an apartment that's covered by those protections that your rent could increase. Listener writes, Sunnyside resident here in favor of the plan to redevelop the Sunnyside train yard would love to see additional park land included in the project. Love a development project that uses space above ground similar to Riverside Park developed above the Amtrak tunnels. And here's Mark in Sunnyside Gardens on I think a similar point, though I don't know if he's going to support the project. Mark you're on WNYC. Hello. Hello, Brian. I am neighbors in Sunnyside

17:00Gardens for for 50 years with your sister in law, Judith Sloan, multicultural artist. My feeling is that we have this is how she happens. I know him. I know him. So there's a dearth of park land and open space in western Queens. We have very few recreational areas or parks. We're limited to playground kind of environments. Sunnyside yards is perfect for soccer fields and tennis courts and big walking areas and running areas. So whatever there is, you see the sky. We don't want just more tall buildings. We should also have low rise home ownership, moderate and low income. Similar to the Nia Maya plans in Brooklyn that were so effective, it shouldn't just be big apartment buildings. And then in terms of transportation, these are rail yards for God's sake. There's the ability to build some kind of a station that's

18:03associated with the MTA in the Long Island Railroad that would affect improving that as well. So there's a lot to do that goes well beyond low income housing and can really utilize this open space on sky that is so needed in western Queens. I also heard that sewage infrastructure might be an issue in that neighborhood. Is that something that you're aware of? I'm aware of it only in the sense that in the parts of Long Island City closer to the water, there have been horrible problems. I'm not an engineer. I don't have that effect what this project would be. Mark, thank you for your call. David, is there a plan to add? I guess it would be a Long Island Railroad station above the yards and that would or along the rail tracks there. It does pass through there, the LIR. I think every branch of the LIR as it's coming from woodside into the city.

19:04So that would ease the pressure on the seven train for people living sort of on that side of Queens Boulevard and everything. Is that part of the plan? That is part of the plan. I think it's something that Long Island Railroad has been talking about and thinking about for a long time. Another part of the plan would be to add more park space on top of this platform so it wouldn't just be like high-rise housing. There would be parks, new parks as well. I also want to get back to something that Pia said. Caller was running for State Assembly. She had said how the neighborhood just did a lot of community planning for this rezoning proposal that was approved by the council last year called one LIC and that was a plan to rezone 54 blocks in Long Island City. We think along on the city like around the perimeter, around the waterfront there's all these new high rises but there actually is a lot of there was a lot of lower level zoning in the interior of the

20:05neighborhood. So after many years of planning they did a big rezoning for 54 blocks to add what the city expects to be about 14,000 new apartments there. So this sunny side yards project would be coming on the heels of that and I think was praised for the community planning and community input so that could be a template. And we should say about the Long Island Railroad even though that stop would be that close to Manhattan it's still unless they change something for that stop. It's still more expensive than getting on the subway. We really should do a whole separate segment on the other story that I wanted to touch on with you. The new development since we booked you to talk about sunny side yards because it's really worth it and it affects a lot of people but I'm going to take one other call on this other story which is the court ruling on Friday that will allow landlords to discriminate against people using government housing vouchers to pay their rent in New York City. And Sean and Manhattan I think is one of those people. Sean you're on

21:11WNYC. Hello. Hello. Hello. Thank you for taking my call. Staten Island native and descendant of the Sandy Ground Farmers of Rossville on Staten Island. It's astonishing and shocking the discrimination for folks holding vouchers. I'm new to the voucher community and grateful that it is available. But I'm finding that brokers will set up an appointment, even give a tour and then I'm ghosted. So I've gone forward to be forthcoming in the email contact or text message contact that I do have a voucher. This is the amount it covers. I'll get a tour but for the most part I'm ignored and this is either through street easy, corporate and other representatives of certain housing buildings and I'm a single person that I feel for the folks who might have families going through these struggles and this new court ruling doesn't seem to shed any light on it.

22:11Thank you, Sean. Thank you very much. And I think Sean's anecdote David is just the kind of thing we hear, right? They will show people the apartments then when they find out that their payment method would be all our part through these vouchers or if they're upfront like Sean said he would, you know, then then they just don't even get responded to in the other scenario. They get ghosted in round two. Why would landlords be hesitant to take voucher paying rentals? You know, that seems like a guaranteed source of income via the government whereas somebody who has a job who might lose their job would be in theory less reliable. So what's the issue? Unfortunately, Sean's experience is very common in New York City and I think across the area and country and it's what prompted first the city and then the state to specifically pass laws that prohibit that type of discrimination. It's called source of income discrimination. You can't

23:16go someone or deny them apartment and apartment just because they use government assistance voucher to pay a portion of their rent to your question about why a landlord would or a broker or property manager refuse to work with a tenant with a voucher. I think it's probably two reasons. The first is could just be straight up discrimination. You know, there's a lot of stereotypes that co-along with having section eight or a tenant with a government assistance voucher who by definition is low income. It could be discrimination by proxy. You know, maybe Sean mentioned he's a single person and worried about families or people with children. A lot of property owners don't want to rent to people with children and so that's you can't say that because that's against the law but if you don't take the voucher that kind of has the effect of denying someone with kids and apartment. And then there's a third reason and I hear this from a lot of landlords who say, you know, we're not discriminatory. We just don't want to deal with all of these government regulations that come with accepting a housing voucher. And so

24:22I think you make a great point. It's kind of guaranteed steady income especially at a time when a lot of tenants have fallen behind on rent and over rent and landlords have a really hard time getting through housing court and getting that money. Here's a steady form of income but it also does come with requirements that they don't want to deal with. And why did the court say it's illegal? I mean, it's not illegal to discriminate in this way. Essentially is what they said. So just a step back back in 2020 to tenants in Ithaca who were looking for an apartment from a pretty prominent property owner, ran a number of buildings. They were told that the company he owns doesn't accept section eight vouchers. They brought that complaint to the state attorney general, attorney general, Patricia James sued in 2022. She actually lost in the lower court, which in New York, we call the Supreme Court. She appealed to an appellate court in upstate New York. It's the third judicial department. Three years later, they issued their ruling just last week saying

25:24actually the landlord doesn't have to accept the voucher and doesn't have to participate in section eight because those requirements that go along with the section eight program such as inspections and having to share your financial records, those constitute a legal search and seizure or warrantless searches. And so they violate the landlord's fourth amendment rights. Now attorney general James could still appeal to the state's highest court, the court of appeals to try to overturn that ruling. She hasn't yet made that determination, but that's still an option. David Brand housing reporter for WNYC and Gothamists. Thanks David. Thank you Brian. Since WNYC's first broadcast in 1924, we've been dedicated to creating the kind of content we know the world needs. Since then, New York Public Radio's rigorous journalism has gone on to win a P-Body Award and a Dupont Columbia Award among others. In addition to this award-winning reporting, your sponsorship also supports inspiring storytelling and extraordinary music that is free and

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