Man Therapy - Is Life Hard?

0:00This episode of the sportsman's empire is brought to you by interstate batteries. Since 1952, interstate batteries has been evoking compassion and a trustworthy spirit into the surrounding communities. Interstate batteries is a mission driven company fueled by purpose and guided by their values. If you need help locating a specific battery, stop into your local interstate batteries retail store and speak with a battery specialist. They even offer cell phone repairs. Interstate batteries outrageously dependable. All right, ladies and gentlemen, his name is Kyle. My name is Dan and this is the man therapy podcast. I don't even know how many episodes we've put out and I honestly don't even know who's listening to this Kyle. But I will say this, that this is my weekly therapy session, and so it's good to connect with another human adult who has children and jobs and the stressors of life to connect

1:01on that level. Yeah. Absolutely. How was your week? Good. It was good, honestly. Everybody's healthy. That's the main thing, right? But during this time of the year, if everybody's healthy, then you're lucky and if somebody's not, then it can really suck and bring down the whole family. Especially if it's a parent. If a parent's not healthy, that can really suck. Yeah, that's a fact, especially when the kids are used to hanging out and playing with you and then they want attention that you can't give them, but it's also kind of, I look at it. It's like, that's a little bit of a learning experience, where you're like, okay, you've got to learn how to build legos by yourself, buddy, or you know what I mean, give me, just give me a day. It's all like. Yeah. That's right. My kids played the joke on me this morning. So they came in to like wake me up early and like just like begging me to get up, begging me to get up. And I'm like, I didn't want to get up early, but they begged me, begged me, so drug my ass out of bed. And then my wife was like, these kids won't get ready for school, blah, blah, blah, blah,

2:04they won't brush their teeth. They won't get dressed, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, you know, I'd go in a dad mode like, all right, guys, come on. Let's do it. And I'm trying to like make them do it. And they weren't doing it. And they're dragging their feet. And everybody's, my wife's acting all huffy puffy and then they'll just stop, stop and just start staring at each other and like trying to hold back smiles. And I was like, what? School got canceled today. Drug me out of bed. Funny joke, guys. Haha. I made this big to do around the kids wouldn't get ready for school and then my wife pretend I actually, my wife usually doesn't joke like almost at all. She never jokes about anything. And so I was actually really impressed that she got in on the joke. I was, I was happy with her for that. That's awesome, man. It was a fun way to start the day even though I don't, I, I hate getting out of bed in the morning. It's my, it's my worst thing. Yeah. It does. I'm always up right at six o'clock. The kids have to be on the bus at seven. There's some day, I'm up just a little bit earlier. So I, you know, I get out there and I start getting breakfast ready, start the coffee,

3:06all that stuff. And when I got the text, I think the text came out real early this morning or late last night. I was, I knew I could sleep in a little bit. So I was in bed till about seven and everybody else was kind of slow to get up except my wife. My wife is, um, I had to get up because she had some deadlines and stuff to, well, yeah. Okay. No, it's no date for work. No, no, no, no days for work. Now let me, I gotta, I want to go through a series of questions that I was in the shower this morning. Oh, okay. Here we go. Yeah. That's where all the best contact comes from the shitter or the shower. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Okay. I want it. If I ask you a question that could be answered in a yes or no answer, answer in a yes or no answer. Okay. Okay. And then if I ask the question, why I want you to explain your, your thoughts on, on

4:11that. You understand how we're going here? Yeah. Okay. All right. Is life easy? No. No. Life is not easy. Okay. All right. Why is life not easy? Hmm. Why is life not easy? Uh. Hmm. Life is not easy because you can't predict the future. Mm-hmm. You can't always make the best decisions, so you don't know what the best decision always is. And you don't have control over all of the variables you wish you had control over. Yeah. That's one major reason. And then another major reason is that, you know, for the, if there's seven billion people on the planet, there's seven billion different aims, really hard to like have the same aim as somebody else, so not everybody is hard to get a group of people pulling in the

5:13same direction. They usually are always kind of trying to stray away in one way or another. And then my next thought is that the, everything we build is always trying to fall into disrepair and humans are unique in that, you know, we're, we're constantly trying to keep things up and constantly trying to maintain things instead of just like going with the flow of the world. Like I feel like more, more animals just go with the flow of the world and if something happens, then, you know, whatever they just move on, but we hold on to things. And I think that causes us a lot of, a lot of pain too. Yeah. Why do you think, let's just, because most of the people who listen to this podcast come from North America, mostly in the United States, why do you think people tend to make life harder than it needs to be? I, it seems to me that people make life harder than it needs to be because they haven't

6:18been, they don't have a lot of experience being around people who don't, like often they came from chaotic backgrounds. It's kind of, it's kind of, we're creatures of habit and so we do what we know. And even if we've seen people do it better, that doesn't mean that we have been like immersed in that. Like if I see somebody have a good habit, that doesn't mean I have that same habit. I've just been exposed to the habit, which is cool, but it's not enough to make me do the habit. Yeah, I think, I think, I think too many people in myself included are too short-sighted and we're just kind of like, act based on our emotion at the moment instead of acting based on what would be best for us in the long term. And so I think we're constantly like stepping in holes that we could have avoided if we would have just like looked up and looked down the road.

7:19Yeah, what do you think? Yeah. This is all coming from a place of frustration, okay? And honestly, it's a pet peeve of mine. But also, I'm trying to be empathetic with those who have not had the same life experiences as me. Okay? Yeah. So when my parents got divorced, shit got chaotic, like real chaotic for a very long period of time, pretty much all through my schooling and I just stressed to the max and to the point where like I just wasn't ever comfortable sleeping in my own house, okay, as a kid, right? That's my little boo-hoo story. But I kind of came out of that a stronger person, I feel, right? I've been in high pressure situations and now I know how to handle them as an adult. So I went through them as a kid and now as an adult, I'm like, okay, you know what?

8:20I got this. It's more of a positive attitude towards things. So when shit hits the fan, I just get extremely frustrated with people who are not of my same mindset because of lack of experience or what is worse yet, in my opinion, is people who don't even try to handle it in an adult way. Who adults, who get wound up about something and then they blame shit on other people. And instead of just going, let's go, let's handle it, right? It's all blamed on somebody else. It brings the entire workplace down and or house down. And the next thing you know, you have a very big negative situation to get out of. People are starting to throw ultimatums around like if you don't do this or if they don't do this, then I'm going to do this and then it's just like holy shit. Here we go. And then usually it takes one strong person to pull the group out of that.

9:26And that person probably has the most experience with dealing with the, dealing with the shit, so to speak. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that mixed with the victim mentality that a lot of people throw around like, oh, it must be nice or no one ever says congratulations on working your ass off, right? They see you succeed or they see you handle a high pressure situation in a way. And then they, they criticize you for doing being good at something. Doesn't ever make sense to me, right? And so though, I don't know why I'm thinking about that today. It's just something that popped into my head and I was just like, dude, it is my biggest pet peeve. And even be in the same room with people like that. And sometimes it's really hard. Yeah. You know, it's, it's, it's really rough. I have a number of thoughts about that. So like, maybe you've heard the story about like two, two brothers that come from the same

10:28household with the, you know, absent father and a drug addicted mom and one goes on to be like a super successful businessman and the other goes on to be a drug addict. And they interview both of them and they say, they say to the drug addict, like, why, why did your life turn out this way? And he says, how could it, how, how could I have done anything else? Like, look at my situation, my, my dad left and my mom was a drug addict. Like, of course, I was going to become a drug addict. And then the other brother that went on to be a successful business person and they said, why, why did your life go that way? He said, how could my life have gone anywhere else? Look where I came from. My dad ran away and my mom was a drug addict. Like, I had to, I had to pull myself up and work hard, right? So like, I do think there's, you've also heard of the classic, you know, debate of nature versus nurture. I think that, I think there's a lot of truth to the, to the idea that each of us have our own innate characteristics. And some people are born with more, with, with more ability to like be strong and stand

11:34up to things. And some people aren't born with this much of that. And then it's the people that are stronger. It's their, it's their task, essentially, to take care of the others. I think, I maybe you've also heard the, I'm sure you've heard this saying before, that hard times create tough men, tough men create easy times, easy times create weak men, weak men create hard times, hard times create strong men around and around and around and around and around. And so sometimes, sometimes when I'm interacting with somebody, I try, like, I don't think that's all, I mean, that there's, there's a lot of common sense to that. I don't know how scientific it is, but there's a lot of common sense to that. So sometimes when I'm meeting with somebody that's like easily frazzled, then, you know, I would consider them weak and I don't necessarily mean that in a super shady judgmental way, but just like, wow, you're like, you can't really handle life. Sometimes I do, or I do think like, geez, what's your nervous system like and what's your brain chemistry like and what, what characteristics were you born with?

12:35I do think that. And then sometimes I also think like, I wonder where you're at in that, in that, in that, in the, that system of hard men, you know, hard times create strong men, strong men create easy times, easy times creates weak men, weak men create hard times like, where are you at in that, because I kind of wonder sometimes if like, if a person like that is the result of being spoiled or coddled or life was too easy or, you know, they didn't have things to contend with as a kid. I cannot, you know, I'm 43 years old. I've known a lot of people in my lifetime and people that have, I know some people that have been through a lot and they're stronger for it. If they have the right and eight characteristics, so like, if you take somebody that's like born to be strong anyway and put them through a lot, they're going to end up being really strong. And if you make somebody that didn't have those innate characteristics and you put them through a lot, their outlook might not be as good. So I think there's a number like a clash of a number of variables that results in who

13:40you are and who I am and who everyone else is. So to me, that's an explanation of where somebody ends up, but I still think from that point, like any given second a person could go, well, even though my life's been shit up to this point, it is now my responsibility to take care of things and to take care of myself. You know, you said that it's usually the person, like the strongest person has to lead everybody else. And I think that's true. A thing that I've noticed in counseling is whoever has the most insight has the most responsibility. And it's not fair. It's just like whoever can see the problem is in charge of it. You know, have you ever, have you ever run into a scenario where that person, who has the insight, who has the, he can withstand the pressure and he can, you know, he or she can withstand the pressure, has reached their point and they want to walk

14:41like whether it's from a job or from a relationship or they're just like, dude, I just can't live in this anymore because the person who I am, maybe it's a control thing or trying to quote unquote, fix a person, right? They just go, dude, I just can't do this anymore. I'm all for being in the pressure, but I don't want to be in the pressure 24, 7365. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, that's, that is a reason why people leave jobs and that is a reason why people leave relationships and that's a, it's a personal decision for each, each person involved. It's a, you know, it's some people, some people leave a job that even a really good job, but it just was like, it's just sucked in that way that you're talking about and they left and they're like, hey, even taking a pay cut, taking a demotion, working somewhere else or going and scrapping and starting my own thing, you know, it wasn't as cushy and easy as that old job that I love, but holy shit, it's way better, you know, and same with somebody leaving a relationship, like, you would have to, that person would

15:44have to decide what's right for them if, if, if walking away is the right thing and if it is, often they don't look back and regret, like this was, this is what I needed to do. The writing was on the wall. I tried for years. I actually think it was, it was holding me back as a person. I think that if I, if I could be on my own, I could be a better person, you know, some people, some people feel like they, some people stay together for the kids and that's the right decision for them. Some people separate because they think that they see that they're together for the kids and life still isn't good. So they're like, well, shit, this isn't even, this isn't worth it either. And so they think, well, if I separate from my spouse, then at least my kids will have one side of the equation that's, you know, happy and healthy and, and, you know, every other week they'll be able to come to my place and it'll be chill. The scary part about that for me is like the other side of the coin, which would be bullshit

16:46than the other, the other half of their lives, they're in a chaotic home in a chaotic environment. I also, I, I hope that I never get divorced. I don't want to divorce my wife. I've never wanted to divorce my wife. She and I have gotten into our own fights and stuff and, and, and had our major disagreements and whatnot. Man, the, the, the thing that terrifies me is, dude, I don't want another guy raising my kids. Yeah. I don't want another guy in the household. I don't want, I don't, I don't ever want to see my daughter set on another guy's lap. I don't, I don't want, I would be hard for me to believe that another guy would get along with my son. Yeah. You know, I think that if, I think that if we divorced and my wife started dating, I, I think that my, that, that guy and my son would be really likely to lock horns because I get really pissed and frustrated at my son and I love him to death.

17:48I can't even imagine like him locking horns with some other guy because my son does not back down. Once he gets activated like that, it's like you, you better love that, that kid or you're going to want to go shove him in the trash can. So yeah, it's, it's tough. Yeah, it's weird out there because, and you could even take this into the business world, right, where it's like, I love the money, but I have ulcers because of how stressful my job is or, or, I, I've stopped working out because all I do is work so much or, now I have health problems or whatever the case is. And so it just kind of comes, it, it, I don't know, I've been going through, you know, I've, I've been going through this like phase in my life where I'm trying, I don't know, I'm trying to figure it all out, like what's the best, right? And so I'm trying to walk this path that is the most positive and I want to say least resistant path, meaning I'm trying to stay away from bullshit, like whether that's my

18:54kids bullshit or some, something far removed from my house, like I'm just trying to avoid all drama, I'm trying to avoid all bullshit, but as you know, in life, that shit just seems to find people, you know what I mean? Yeah, I want to ask you this question, and you can talk to it from a counselor's perspective or a dad or a husband, however you want to, however you want to talk about it. What do you think of when I say so and so is making a mountain out of a mole hill? What does that mean to you? Yeah, it means that they're taking something small and making it really big, a small little issue and magnifying it and making things, making things more stressful than they need to be. And you know, if that happens every once in a while, no big deal, but if that's a, if that's a habit or if that's just a way of being, then it's just such a drain on mental and emotional resources, it's just really, really hard to be around someone like that.

19:57Yeah. When, when you have a client, maybe you identify it or they identify it and that's why they're there, what are any type of best practices or advice that you give to them to, it's like, dude, this is something so small. Nobody gives a shit because this is one thing that I talk about with my kids. I say to my kids, oh, you're having a bad day. Guess what? Nobody cares, right? Nobody cares about your bad day. When you're an adult, nobody gives a shit. The guy driving down the road next to you who doesn't know you, he doesn't give a shit. So you're going to have to learn how to handle your problems by yourself, right? And I don't mean I'm throwing my kids to the wolves, but I am, but I am having to teach them that life is not easy. And you're going to have to find ways to figure it out, right? And figure it out without being so, oh, I'm having a bad day. Oh, my God. It sucks. So you know what I mean? Yeah.

20:57Absolutely. Well, with kids, it's training over the course of years because they're not even capable of having it click right away. But right now, I'm thinking about adults that I've worked with over the years. When I talk about anger and irritation, irritability, almost I get, it's going to make a no before I thought so as I mind. When I talk about with adults about anger and irritation, irritability, stuff like that, I don't, I don't jump directly to like, you know, nobody cares. I more come at it from like an empathetic position in which I basically say like, yeah, I hear you. You are as mad as about that as you are and you are frustrated about that. And it makes sense that you are, that you care about that and it makes sense to what,

22:00how, how irritated you've become and how all of that frustration has built up and you feel completely justified to be as upset about that thing as you are, right? And they're like, yeah, right. I'm like, okay, well, all of that's true. And still look, where does that get you? Like, like, talk to me about the benefits that you get from being so mad about that. And they're usually aren't any. It's like, okay, so you're just sitting in your anger, okay, fair. So then I basically talk with them about just because you are justified to be that angry, it doesn't mean that it's your best course of action. So then I try to boil it down to like, I hear you, you feel completely justified to be, to be as upset as you are. What's the next step after that or are you just stopping in frustration? Because if you're, if you're just stopping in frustration and you're going to have to sit there, but what do you ultimately want out of this and what do you think would be a good solution to this? What would be a good, what would be one percent better than what you're doing?

23:05And another thing that I talk with them about is like, your emotions might be justified, but they're also your responsibility. Like I like that. Like, have you ever, have you ever read the book to your kids? What if everybody did that? There's a book called What If Everybody Did That? And it's all about like, you know, kid throws a candy wrapper out the window and they're like, oh, then the parents are like, hey, don't do that. That's bad. And the kids like, well, it's no big deal. I was just one candy wrapper and they're like, well, what if everybody did that? It's just a scenario after scenario after scenario of things that don't seem like a big deal, but it's like, what if everybody did that? And it's like, oh, yeah, things would fall to shit real fast if everybody, if everybody did that. Yeah, you feel justified to be so huffy, puffy and be so mad and so irritated all the time. Okay. Yep. Fair. But Jesus, what if everybody did that? What if your spouse did that? What if your kids did that? What if every person at work did that? The world would be a complete mess, wouldn't it? Yeah.

24:05It totally would. That was sucks. So, okay. So even if you're justified to be upset, maybe it's time to grow and figure out how you can manage your irritation better, and maybe it's time to dive to look more into problem solving and see what wiggle room there is. And so then I'll ask them, like, what steps have you taken to try to solve the problem? Like complaining is a thing that you can do, for sure, and I won't even take complaining away from you, but now tell me what else you've done to try to solve the problem. Yeah. And if they have some things that they've done, then I say, okay, good job for trying to solve it. Let's talk about other solutions that we could do. And also sometimes I haven't heard any attempts at solving the problem. They just complain. Yeah. So then I'm like, oh, well, sounds like there's some fertile ground there. There's some areas of the map that are unexplored, like, let's try to see what some possible steps you could take to get out of this could be. Then I ask them, like, what are your options as you see them, or what are some things, what are some steps that you could take that you haven't tried yet, or what are some

25:06things that you know you could do, you've just haven't given yourself permission to do it yet. And I ask them, who do you have on your team? Who's on your side? Who else would be invested in trying to, like, help you make this better? And then they tell me, I said, go to them. Go to them and say, hey, I recognize I've been frustrated and irritated about this. And I don't want to live like this anymore. What can we do differently? Yeah. Because I basically tell them, like, if you're not willing to make any changes, you're just going to stay upset, right? And it sounds to me like you don't want to be upset. Yeah. So then, so that means that it sounds like it's time to start dabbling and making changes. Yeah. It sounds to me like a lot of those people just want the problem to be solved by somebody else, even when solving the problem is in fact their responsibility, part part of their responsibility. That can be the case. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But some, that personality, that type of personality probably just doesn't click very

26:15well in, let's just say a natural setting with the person who's like, screw it. Let's go. Let's get it done. Let's just, you know, yep, this sucks, but it's going to, let's just suck it up and let's do it. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And actually, you remind me of another metaphor that I use with clients really often. And the metaphor that I use is, all right, so you, you are hiking up a mountain with another person. And the goal is to reach the top of the mountain. And it's a, it's a hard hike if you don't know the way you're figuring out as you go. And some sections of the trail are really, really hard, some are confusing, but it's you in this other person. How would you feel if you and this other person accidentally took a wrong turn and you hiked 30 minutes in the wrong direction and then you realized it and you had to turn around and walk 30 minutes back to get on, back on track? How would you feel if that person broke down, sat down in the middle of the trail and

27:17just pouted and wind and complained? How would you feel about that? Would you, would that be a good hiking partner or a bad hiking partner? If your goal is to get to the top of the mountain and the daylight is burning, like it's going to get dark in a while and what you really need to do is get back on track. And even if you took a wrong turn and you need to go shit, that sucks and get back on track and keep going, but, but your hiking partner breaks down and sits cross-legged in the middle of the trail and starts pouting. What would you think of them with that be a good hiking partner and like, no, that wouldn't be a good hiking partner. I'm like, don't be that person. Don't be that person. I basically say, you are your own partner in life. You are a partner to yourself. And if you are allowing part of yourself to break down and sit down in the middle of the trail and pout, then you are doing yourself a disservice because you're holding yourself back from moving forward. Yeah. Alright, so, I want to, I want to talk to you about this scenario because I see this

28:20a lot in the world where there are people who, they are hard workers. When pressure does come, they do handle business, right? But they complain the entire time that they're doing it. Alright. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know. There's probably days where I fall into that category where I'm having to fix something that somebody else broke or fix something that could have been prevented from being broken in the first place. And I'm just like, I'm going to do it, but I'm going to bitch while I do it, right? What are the, what are the problems with that? Well, so, so there's a, a number of ways to look at that actually. One way to look at that is that like, if, if you're bitching the whole time you're doing something, there's a, there's a chance that you are betraying your own boundaries, so to speak that you actually, you shouldn't be doing that thing.

29:21And you're doing it even though you don't want to be doing it. And you just weren't strong enough to stand up for yourself and say, I'm not, I'm not doing that. Like, yeah. You guys, you figured out you did this. This is your problem. This is not on me, but instead you're doing it. So you're kind of, you're betraying your own boundaries there. That's, that's one possibility. The, the, the other possibility, I'm not sure there's lots, but another possibility is that you're, you're doing the thing, but you haven't, you haven't done the, you're too zoomed in and like, how, how inconvenient this is and, and how much this sucks and how, how much you wish you were doing something else. And you're not zoomed out enough to, to recognize this is just one of those things. This is just a little bump in the road. I'm actually like, like, if it's something that you know is your responsibility and you know you're going to do anyway, then you're actually just adding self torture to a thing you were going to do anyway. Yeah. And that's where a person could make a, make a, basically a 180 and be like, all right,

30:24well, if I have to do this super shady thing, I'm going to fricking rock out to some tunes while I do it. Yeah. You know, or, oh, I'm going to call my best friend. I'm going to chat on the phone while I do it or whatever, you know, I'm going to try to try to make this fun in some way or, oh, well, at least I get to go buy a new tool or, you know, that's, that's a place to try to find the silver lining, so to speak. And that's, that's the part that we do control. Like, that's how we can get mentally stronger is if there's a thing that you know you're going to do anyway, figure out how to do it with a good attitude. Yeah. I love, I love the mindset of some of these people who are almost, they think life is boring unless there's an obstacle, right, where it's like, God, I've been pretty stagnant this week. Let's go find something to do. Let's go find a problem to fix. Instead of having a problem come to you, they're going and looking for a problem to solve. I wish I had a mentality like that, but I just feel like there's so many other problems

31:26and things to address in a given week that I just want to like, I want five minutes on a couch without being interrupted, right? Yeah. That's all I want. Right. Right. Yeah, absolutely. I also think like people's, it's, Dan, I will say this too, it's hard to understand someone else's nervous system if you haven't lived in it, you know, it's kind of need to be like, yeah, God, they shouldn't be like that, but if you were inside the storm that's, that is their body, you might be like, oh, I get it. You might, you might have a better understanding of why they're always seeking tension or always seeking problems. They might not even realize they're doing it. They might not mean to do it. It's just because they've been doing it so long and people have accepted it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they've, yeah, it's become there normal and they don't know how to be any way other than how they are. Yeah. And then, and then critiquing them feels like an attack. Yeah. 100%

32:27Yeah. Well, actually, a super benefit that I have being a, being a counselor versus like being somebody's spouse is that if they're coming to me for counseling, they're often like ready to hear my perspective and this won't surprise you at all to, to hear that sometimes when I give my feedback, even if it's challenging feedback, the person that I'm meeting with will often say, yeah, that's, that's what my wife said. Yeah, that's what my husband told me, but they won't hear it from their fricking spouse. Yeah. I was just talking about this with my wife the other day, how like that I'd just actually happened the other day in counseling, how like I said a thing and the, and the client was like, yeah, that's what my spouse said, but they were willing to hear it from me. And I was like, dude, it's, it's one of the most frustrating things to be a spouse or a parent or someone that loves someone else and be like, just do this or just do it this way to stop doing that. And it's definitely the right advice, but the person just won't hear it from you.

33:30Yeah. Yeah, they've got to hear it from somebody else. You got to pay for that. You got to pay for getting better. Oh my gosh, dude, it's, it's ultimately frustrating, but it's, it's weirdly human nature. Yeah. Is there a problem with someone like that saying, I guess that's just who I am? You know what I mean? And then I look at, because I've run into these people before who are ultra negative, are assholes who make mountains out of mole, mole hills, like just live in that. And when people try to talk to them about that, like, you know, we had a friend group in college and this one person was just like, always a downer. And we're, and he's like, I guess that's just who I am, guys. And we're like, yeah, a self-loathing asshole. Yeah. Who wants to be around that? And eventually we just stopped inviting him to places, man. Yeah. Right? And it's just like, when I hear, I guess that's just who I am.

34:30I hear, I don't want to be around you unless that thing of which you are is a pat is positive. Yeah. Well, yeah, but that's, so that is your, that's your decision. I always say we vote with our behaviors, you know, you get to, you get to walk away from friends like that, but friends are quote, you get to walk away from people like that as much as, as much as you're able to, um, I, I do think, I think it's worth it. If you're close enough to someone, it's worth it to say like, look, this is how this is affecting me. And are you willing to try to do this differently? Because it's really taking a toll on me. And you, you say you love me and I'm telling you, this is taking a toll on me. Yeah. Like, can you find it in your heart to work on this? Because you care about me. Yeah. You're not an alchemydom. That's a plea. Yeah. You know, there's, there's no saying I'm going to do this if you don't none of that. Like a person could do that. I don't know how to even say you shouldn't. I'm just saying like, you know, in a marriage, in a friendship, maybe at work, I don't

35:30know, but, you know, the idea of like, hey, I have to really level with you. I know that you feel justified to be the way that, the way that you are, but man, it's really taking the huge toll on me. Can you find it in your heart to try to be different? Because here's all the negative results. Like you say, you say I am who I am. This is just me. Here's all the results from that. Yeah. And are you okay with those results? Because if you are, that's a major problem. But if you admit that you're not okay with those results, can we please, please try to do something differently? And I, I won't, I won't be a mean to you. I won't be a jerk to you. I won't ride your ass about it. I won't judge you. I won't put you down. I'll be on your team. Yeah. Like we, we, we need to do better. This isn't, this is not going well. Yeah. Yeah. I feel that. Okay. What else? What else in this type of conversation of victimhood and negative energy do we need to talk about? Hmm. I, I mean, to me, gently helping the person see the toll is taking on everyone else, gently

36:37helping the person who has the negative behaviors, see how they're negatively affecting people and saying like, if you're, if you're choosing to continue to be like this, then you're literally choosing for these outcomes for the people that you love. Yeah. You, you're choosing that. Yeah. And I would say, hey, like I actually think you're stronger than that. Yeah. You know, I, I think I don't expect a night and day change or an overnight change, but like, man, it'd be nice if things were one percent better. Yeah. Like what would be some things that we could change like so, so like, I don't know, turn this around on yourself, like what if you were that person, what do you think would work for you? If you were, if there was something you were doing that really pissed your wife off, say, um, something about you that you didn't like that she doesn't like, something about you or the way you do things or your attitude or your behavior is that that she thinks brings the family down or is negative in some way, um, but you feel totally justified to be how you are.

37:38Yeah. I mean, I think it would come down to just a, a non aggressive form of communication. You know what I mean? Just like, hey, um, can we, can we talk about this just a second? Like one of the things that really drives me crazy is when the dishes are just stacked up in the dishwasher and I'm, I'm busy and I don't like to have them, you know, in the sink overnight or I don't like to have them do, you know, or something like that. And, and let's say something like for, for a personality like mine, I'm just real chill. I'm going to get to them. I'm going to clean the kitchen, but just not on the schedule that they want them to be done, right? So that's one, that's just an example in our household where I've really tried to, I guess step up and, and make sure that the dishes in the sink are, are not there during

38:41the dishwasher or in the cupboard. Yeah. Something simple, I guess, like that. You'd want to be approached in a simple way in a, in a, in a nut and a grit tone. Yeah. Instead of, instead of like, and I'm sure there's people out there, they just, they just get mad, instead of communicating, like, I'm mad because this doesn't change. Well, I don't know what you want changed. If you don't tell me you want to change, right? Right. I'm willing to help in any way I can, but I'm not a mind reader, you know what I mean? Yeah. So those types of things. And then the other thing, the other thing would just be, is it realistic? Is what you're wanting me to do realistic with my schedule and, and or your schedule or the schedule of the house or, or things like that? And I would want to talk it out and just be like, okay, yeah, sure. Let's figure out, let's figure it out. That's just me, but I can't put my, it's hard for me to put myself in the shoes of a person

39:44who carries stress and anxiety further than they need to. Because when I was a kid, I carried stress and anxiety a very long way and I felt like it was just a bag of bricks. So eventually I just set it down. You know what I mean? And then you don't carry that weight anymore. And so I, I don't know, I like, there, I can't be stressed about what you're stressed about. Because if I'm stressed about what you're stressed about, that's two people being stressed about something that, in my opinion, just isn't a huge issue. Yeah. You know, another thought that comes to my mind is, I'm thinking about when I, there's, there's been a couple of jobs that I've left because I felt like they were kind of poisoning me. Yeah. And, you know, both of them were like, you know, good jobs and actually it's like so good that it was hard to leave them. The benefits were awesome and vacation time was awesome and all these awesome things,

40:49you know, obviously the money was like secure for my family and whatnot. But like the job was just like, it was like, it was like drinking poison every day and trying to stay healthy. And it's like, well, how come you're not healthy? It's like, well, fucking, I'm drinking poison to like keep, keep everything going here. And it's like, well, how come you're not in a good mood when you come home? Well, because I just drank poison all day, it's not, it's very hard to like come home and be in a good mood when I just like eight shit all day long. And I know, I know in my head, I'm going right back there tomorrow, I ended up leaving those jobs. And also like it took me a lot longer than I wish I wouldn't have stayed at those places for so long. But I understand why I did because I'm afraid of change. And also like once you have a family, then you're just so responsible for so much that it's like, well, yeah, I'll need a shit sandwich every day to keep my family afloat. And it's like, yeah, that's true. And that's exactly what you should do. You can make the better move. You don't have to do it forever, hopefully, but yeah, I ended up leaving those jobs.

41:50And every time I left a job, it was definitely the right thing to do. But every time I left a job, it was really, really hard to do. But I can relate to a person whose job is so stressful that like, if you think of it in terms of like, you have 100 units of patients, okay, you have 100 units of patients. If 100 units of mental health, so to speak. And let's say you go to work and your job sucks so much that it burns 95% of those units of mental health. You only have five units left for the rest of your life that day or that week. Like that's not good. You're going to get frazzled easily at home and little things are going to like, it's usually not somebody that just has a chill life that is so easily irritated. It's usually somebody who's like, if this is the, let's say you have like a really big threshold for stress, but let's say that your job like takes you right up to like just

42:51below your threshold or sometimes you're teetering, well, then little things can set you past that. And it can look to others like, holy shit, why are you getting so stressed out about little things? And it's like, well, all you're seeing is that little thing, the straw that broke the camel's back because I'm actually always just beneath my stress level because my job or my parents' health or my kids' health or whatever the thing is that's taking up all of the, all of their units of mental health, so to speak, that's the part that you're not being. Right. And so then we've made the person for overreacting when they have, when they're really just like you're seeing the, you're seeing when they finally break the surface of their, of their stress level. Yeah. What about, you know, we talked a little bit about the mountain out of the Mole Hill and maybe tie that in with someone who, you know, like me and you, we could look at a person's life who we may think is overreacting.

43:51We don't get to see their whole life or what actually causes them the most stress in this world. And they may, it may look to them like, or look to us like they're, they're making a bigger deal than it needs to be. How do you tell someone like that? Like, dude, your life is not as bad as you think it is. How do you have a conversation with someone like that? Um, I, I don't know that that would be fruitful. Yeah. There's a chance that it could be, but I don't know that, I don't assume that that would be. Usually all that would do, potentially all that would do would be, they would still have all of their same upsetness. They would just then have invalidation and shame on top of it. Um, this is, this is a little paradoxical for me because I'm, I'm probably closer aligned to you, which is like, hey, like suck it up and do better and like figure out when things

44:52aren't going well and do what you have to do to make them better. Like that makes a lot of sense to me. But man, I think I've been beaten over the head by this lesson mainly in my professional career. And then I've had to like overlay it on in my personal life. And that is that, that people need to feel understood first. Like I have been so guilty so much of my life and it still is a thing that happens that I have to check myself on of, of too quickly jumping to solutions and not, not spending enough time like really understanding the other person's position. Like, yeah. Why do you feel the way you feel from your perspective? Why is it so justified for you to feel the way you feel and not listening to them so that I can combat it, but listening to them to, to really, truly understand it and that's a big difference. Like, especially if we, if we're in opposition to that person, which I think, you know, like a husband and wife can be oppositional to each other, like I just want you to be in a better mood.

45:53Um, I've, I've really learned people have to be understood first and, and they, they can tell you can tell if someone genuinely understands you or if they're just pacifying you. Yeah. So like, I've really learned you have to like work to generally understand that other person and make them, make them feel understood like for real. And so then they feel like you're on their team and, and not against them and, and only then will they get up and follow you. All right. Try to follow me on this, on this question then. How do you, how can I try to understand someone that I cannot understand? Is that, that seems like a dumb question? I, I, yeah, one, one, yeah, yeah, yeah. One exercise I like for that is to basically say, hey, tell me, tell me, tell me, everything, tell me everything that's frustrating you, tell me everything that sucks about

46:54your life, tell me everything that is, that is weighing on you about work, about home, about relationships, tell me about all of those things. And I'm not going to say a single thing back to you. I'm not going to tell you, I'm not going to give you any advice. Um, I might ask some clarifying questions to better understand, but I, I'm not going to be trying to fix at all. I just want, I just want you to lay it out for me. Because then that would give the, the, the other person the opportunity to, to really lay it all out. And then you might understand better. Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. If we're listening to respond and listening to, to combat and listening to convince, the other person can tell you're not really, you're not really hearing them. Yeah. They, they need to feel, they need to feel heard. So here's another thing, this goes piggybacks off the, what I was saying a little bit ago about having to understand people, um, when I was working at, uh, at four oaks, which

47:55is a residential treatment facility for children in, in Cedar Rapids, um, I thought all these kids need is like a compassionate, kind, understanding, loving, fun adult in like these kids will feel safe and like they'll, they'll be very well behaved. Dude, I got walked all over. My unit was the worst unit. I was like the nicest staff, the most compassionate, the most loving. And I just got walked all over, um, what I, what I learned in that, one of the things that I learned in that experience was, um, they, like I would just be like, I would just give them a solution. So if they're like, oh, I'm, like, I'm mad about this or this person hitting me or this person pushing me or whatever. And I'm like, just stay away from them. Well, then that never solved the problem. Then they just escalate and, and then I'm like, oh, just do it like this. And then they escalate. So what happens is if you don't take the time to like really understand where a person's coming from and what they're really thinking and feeling, they're not going to listen to

48:58your solution. What they're going to do is they're going to escalate their attitude or behaviors. They're going to say, no, I really am this serious. And then you're like, no, no, just do the solution. They're going to escalate again. No, I am this serious. So they're going to keep escalating their message until you take the time to stop and listen. And, and that's a really shitty cycle if you never stop and listen, because they're just going to keep escalating and you're going to keep combating all of that. Like the solution's so simple, just do the solution. And they're, they're going to be like, I don't want to hear your solution because you don't really care about my problem. A solution feels like a blow off when, when the person hasn't taken the time to understand where you're coming from. Yeah. Yeah. A solution feels invalidate. A solution feels like, oh, just do it like, like, dude, if I feel really, really passionately about something and a person's just like, oh, just do this, like, that feels really invalidating. And that, and it feels like a fuck you. And then the response is like, well, fine, fuck you back then.

49:59Yeah. Yeah. That, and that is, that blows my mind that those two styles of people tend to be closest friends and, or, uh, husband or wife. Do you know what I mean? Like, like, I could literally fix your problems if you're willing to do that, but you're now getting emotional and saying, oh, I just fix it. Like everything's going to be okay. Just fix it. You know, and, and it becomes, it becomes like, there's these layers and there's these complexities because of emotions, you know, you got one person who's emotional, one person who's logic and the logical person is, I don't know. I don't know. It just, it just becomes so, so complicated at that point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I agree. I think, um, the benefit, hmm, I feel like the person that usually is end, uh, and

51:01the person that usually ends up being able to shift the cycle is the logical one, because once they kind of, once it clicks for them, that like, oh, I can't just keep offering solutions. I have to understand first. Now it becomes logical to understand. So they're like, oh, I was skipping, there's a process here and I was skipping a step on the process. Like, okay. Yeah. I'll give me an example of a question. That a logical person might ask an emotional person as who is coming, who is frustrated with a problem. The logical person wants to fix it, but he now knows that he can't go in and just say, let me handle this for you or you should do this. What type of question should we ask the person who's frustrated with whatever it is they're frustrated with? A question I'd like to ask is, what's the worst part about this?

52:05Yeah. What's the worst part about this? So it's like, oh, man. I'm so frustrated with this guy at work and I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, what's the worst part about that? Oh, he doesn't, he doesn't give a shit about my time. He just keeps adding more and more and more to my plate. I'm like, oh, you, you feel like no matter how hard you work, you're in an impossible situation. Like, your hard work doesn't even benefit you. You're just like a, like a mouse on a wheel going as fast as it can at all times and it's, and it's exhausting and you know, you don't get a pad on the back and you don't get a break. I'm like, yeah, that really sucks. Like, oh, geez, that would suck. Okay. And that's not the time to be like, well, last week or the week before, this was not a problem because you weren't as, you know, like, yeah. Yeah. Your schedule was more open or that wouldn't be the right time for that. I don't think so. I think then you could say, like, what, you know, what do you need from me?

53:07Yeah. What do you need, what do you need from me? Yeah. Or give it a little bit of time for them to settle down too, you know, and then you could say, hey, I've been thinking about that. Well, you know, what would it be? It's also okay to ask to give feedback like, hey, I've been thinking about that. Have a few thoughts. Would it be okay if I share those with you? Yeah. Then that feels empowering to the person like, yeah, you can share those with me. And it's like, well, I noticed that like the weeks that you're more stressed out, like, I get why you're stressed. And I noticed the weeks that it affects you more, there's of these other various bulls are present too. And the weeks that you're less that the stress affects you less, it's like this. What if we tried to make our lives more like this more of the time? What would you think of that? And maybe like, yeah, that would be really nice. I'd say, okay, cool. We can start taking steps towards that. Yeah. Yeah. Because if you're trying to like tell them what to do when they're activated, that's not going to work either. When they're pissed off and you're going to give them advice, kind of got to wake them and calm down.

54:08Yeah. And then this is where I feel like certain times that person who's being calm and reaching out and asking the right questions gets taken advantage of in certain times where it's all that stress where it's like, oh, I'm so stressed over here. And then the person you work with is like, and you say that question, is there something that I could do to make you easier? Yeah. Well, if you could just pick up this spreadsheet and then you could pick up this and this. Now, you're just because you asked that question, you're now, it's almost like they're passing stuff on to you, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's only if you accept it. Exactly. That's only if you accept it. Well, yeah, you could, I'm so stressed out, you could do, you could, if you could take this spreadsheet for me and you could cover this meeting for me and da da da da, that's your place to say, well, I hear you, but actually my schedule is so full that I can't take that spreadsheet for you. And I can't do that meeting for you. So maybe you need to go to your boss and tell them that you have too much.

55:12Yeah. You're drinking from a fire hose. You're happy to work hard, but you can't, you've just taken on too much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a really weird scenario because, you know, and obviously in this world, there are things that, let's say Kyle, let's say, oh no, the Frisbee golf course is packed today. And I can't, I had all week I wanted to go play Frisbee golf and it's packed and now I can't play Frisbee golf. I would, yeah, I would be like, dude, who cares about Frisbee golf? And you'd be like, how dare you? How dare you, yeah, who's my number? And I would be like, I'd be like, Kyle Man, dude, it's raining outside. I wanted to go hunting. Dude, yeah, and you'd be like, dude, who cares if it's raining, dude, you know, who cares the street? Who cares the street? That's boring. You're stupid. Oh, what? Honestly, that's the world.

56:13That's a wonderful example, Dan, seriously. Yeah, yeah. If I were, you know, if, if you were all pissed off and frustrated that like, let's say that your life is really busy and you've like carved out and frickin protected like these few days chunks here and there throughout the season, you're just like, oh, this is the only fucking time I can go. This better workout. And, and let's say there's three of those dates planned. First one comes like, I'm ready. And then it's raining and just bullshit, horrible weather, like, oh, no, can't do that one. All right. I'm looking forward to the next one. Next one comes. Same thing. Rainy bullshit weather. And then the next one comes. And it's the same thing. Again. Rainy bullshit weather. Well, dude, that's a big deal in your world. That's a big deal to you. Like, you, you got totally screwed. Something really important to you got fucked up. Yeah. It would feel shitty and belittling if I was like, dude, who cares hunting stupid? Yeah. If I were being a good friend to you, I, even though I don't care about hunting, I care, I understand that people care about things.

57:14So I'd like, fuck, man, I'm really sorry to hear that. Yeah. That does suck. Yeah. Want to go play Big Buck Hunter at the bar? I like, I like, there's some of those memes that it's usually a man and a woman. They're a couple. And then the one, like, someone's always down. And it's the difference between men and women where like, I don't know, like a mimosos with friends got canceled and the, the woman was kind of sad and that she missed brunch and the guy was like, would it make you feel better if I, you know, took you to, you know, Von Mauer or whatever, you know, whatever that scenario is? And it's funny that like all the work that had to go into like making this woman happy. Then on the guy's end, it was, um, it was like the opposite of black, uh, men in black where they hit the thing and everybody forgets everything about what just happened, right?

58:16And they're like, oh, what's wrong, honey? Uh, golf with a boy's got canceled. We were going to day drink today and then all she did was lift, lift her shirt up. Yeah. And then he's like, he's, he got happy and forgot about everything. And he's like, hey, let's go, you know, let's go right, let's go do something, you know, right? Right. Yeah. You know, actually, so that, that actually brings up a, uh, an interesting point, which would be, so here we are two, two guys talking about it. And I know that I'm a, I'm a counselor, so I'm, I'm much more likely to be more on the emotional and empathetic, you know, part of the spectrum for males and cool. I'm also a manly man, so don't get it twisted, um, but it'd be interesting to, to, uh, educate yourself from a female perspective or from a more feminine perspective, um, to, to do a little research about what it's like for, for women who are frustrated and what they want to hear and what they don't want to hear. Yeah. Maybe that'd be a, maybe we should try to get a guest on to speak to that.

59:17Yeah. I'm down for, I'm down for learning to become a better husband, father person. Yeah. Like, I'm down for that, uh, if you know anybody, yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. Um, anything else we need to talk about today, we've been going at it for about an hour now. I think this was a really good conversation. Yeah, I do too. Yeah. If anything, just kind of highlighting that, like, at least this is what I took away from it. You can't expect to fix problems from somebody who doesn't, who doesn't necessarily want their problems fixed. Um, you got to, and you got to understand them. Yeah. I think also it's, again, it feels really difficult to like put energy into understanding them when you're, when you are actually frustrated with them. Yep. Um, I, I think that, yeah, we, we have to, we have to have more compassion.

1:00:19I, I, with people, when I'm, when I'm finding myself getting frustrated with someone because of their frustration, um, if they're important enough to me, I will try to remind myself, like, they don't want to be like this either. Yeah. Like this sucks for them too. Yeah. Being like this sucks. And so I'll have to be like, all right, well, I love this person and this sucks for them. So that gives me some, that gives me some motivation to like be there for them. Yeah. Like actually a small example of that is like my dad, my dad's like a really nice guy, really fun guy, kind of life of the party, smart, intelligent, jokester, um, really fun. But dude, when he's working, like you don't want to work with him. Yeah. He flips a switch and he is an asshole. He's a mechanical engineer. He's got like, he sees what he wants in his head. It doesn't communicate it to you. And so everything you do is wrong. And he's freaking out and yelling things and some language he's made up and, but there's a lot of afterwards in it. I know that and like all this shit, right?

1:01:19And he just like doesn't, it's just a mess when you work with him and it's so stressful. I've, I used to work with him a lot when I was a kid and was living at home. And I used to like, that used to scare me. I used to take it personally. It used to stress me out a lot. And now as an adult, I've, I still help him out sometimes because he lives on a farm super close and he'll call me or text me and like need my help with something and he'll be like that. But I let it roll off my back so much more now because I'm like, uh, this is just him. This is just his experience. It, I actually pity him. I pity him for feeling like that. And so when he's like, I'm trying to get this body on this car and he's getting, he's all getting all kinds of fucking frazzled and worked up. I'm like, okay, dad, yeah, all right. We can do this, you know, and then I, I just like let it bounce off me and I just do the things. Fucking put this here like that. He's doing that shit to me and I'm like, oh, okay, dad, yeah, yeah. No problem.

1:02:20So you're, you're trying to kill him with kindness, which I just choose my, I just choose how I'm going to be like, yeah, because you know, dude, you know, it's like I, I want to be an asshole back to you, but I'm going to be, I'm going to be an asshole back to you by being extremely nice and helpful. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Oh, dude, I don't add any fuel to the fire when he's like yelling and whining and screaming even. I just am like, yeah, okay. Cool. Yeah, we'll do this. Yeah. You bet. Because I know it's him. I've been able to unbook from it, but I, it's worth it. I will still help him because I love him. If I didn't love him, I'd be like, well, fuck you, dude. You suck to be around. So go fucking screaming your garage. I don't give a shit. But since it's my dad and I do love him and I do care about him, I'll be there with him as he yells and screams and I just stay calm. Yeah. That's a fact. All right. Anyway. Well, there's that. Yeah. Great conversation. Kyle, appreciate your time as always. If you guys could do us a huge favor and go to Spotify or iTunes or wherever you download

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