KOHBERGER'S CASUAL CONVO W/ CLERK ON MURDERS HE COMMITTED

0:00This is an iHeart podcast, Guaranteed Human. Crime stories with Nancy Grace, busted, Brian Cobarger's casual, casual conversation with a clerk caught on camera, a conversation about the murders he just committed. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Brian Cobarger caught on camera, busted, having a very light-hearted, casual conversation with a DMV clerk, including about the murders he just committed.

1:04I noticed so much non-verbal communication, which I would love to point out to a jury. But the prosecutor in that jurisdiction was too weak, spineless, gutless to take this thing to trial so we could finally hear the facts and the families can know the truth, even if it's a terrible truth, the truth about what happened to their children. I noticed that as he's talking, he's like looking, who does that? Why is he doing that? Obviously he's looking around, see if anybody's noticed him, he's in a government office, is he worried he's going to be apprehended somehow? He's looking, he's wearing, it looks like black plastic gloves. Does nobody notice that? Look at this guy, black plastic gloves inside, anyway there's so much more, but let's just get right down to it. Let's watch Brian Cobarger and his casual convo, including about their murders, he just

2:06committed. Hello? Hi. How's it going? Pretty good, I definitely need to get my wife in a situation. Okay. We should be able to handle that. All right. All right. Thank you. That's pretty good. Thank you. Thank you. What is proof insurance? No, I mean you have to have it in Washington State, but you don't have to prove it with us. I do need to know the exact amount there are in the car right now. Let me even check that. Okay. Perfect. So 150. Oh. Okay. So you just have to write that exact mileage right here with no 10. Take some officers' actual post date date and then you'll sign things and you'll be direct on the bottom line there. You know, when I have told a lie, typically to my husband, I get hot all over, I feel bad. I almost always go back and correct it and tell the truth unless it's something like it. No, I'm too short.

3:07I can't see your ball spot. I can't take it. Do you see this guy straight out to Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, renowned psycho analyst out of the LA jurisdiction, the author of Deal Breaker. You can see her on Bravo and on Peacock and you can find her at drbethanymarshall.com. Dr. Bethany, I get hot all over and I imagine I turn red and I can't live with the telling of the lie. It eats me up. Do you see this guy? I do Nancy. And what's interesting is a lot of the searches on his phone were under psychopathic paranoia, which suggests that there was a part of his personality that was quite paranoid about getting caught. On the other hand, after the crime, there were many, many searches about the Moscow murder so he was fascinated and reliving. I think at this point in the DMV, he felt it was a safe environment. There's no police around. He chatted for 13 minutes with this woman and I think Nancy that he was reliving the

4:13glory of the crime. He's proud of himself. Again, if you think about what's on that phone that was a forensically searched, there was a lot of flexing of muscles, a lot of preoccupation with self. He loved himself. He loved looking in the mirror and finding somebody at the DMV who would listen to him. I think that put him in a great way. Bethany, do you see what you just did? Look at your monitor. You say the word muscles and the control room can't wait to show Brian Cobrager without his shirt on. I've seen that enough. Thank you. Take, please take that down. Okay. What if anything does that mean and how are you still there? What does that have to do with what we're looking at today? Why are you talking about him flexing muscles? Because he's preoccupied with himself. He loves himself. He's only attached to himself and anybody who will give him attention, he'll suck up the time. There's probably people behind him at the DMV waiting and he talks for 13 minutes.

5:17Nancy, he loves himself and he loves what he did and he wants to talk about it. He might have even been aroused or sexually excited while he was talking about it since I believe it was a sexually motivated crime. It could have been almost like a masturbatory experience like going over the details. He might also have been trying to convince himself that nobody really knew that he was a perpetrator. So trying to get clues from the clerk about what she might have read or what people, you know, word on the street was, so to speak. You know, that's very insightful because I've seen a lot of killers before they're caught asking, hey, what do you think? Do you think about that? Have you heard about this? Have you heard about that? And they seem to relish, I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a masturbatory endeavor, but I would say that they enjoy reliving it and you may be right. I just don't want to think about Brian Coburgers and other parts right now. But straight out to Hermione El Rodriguez-Poleo, investigative journalist joining us tonight.

6:22Hermione, thank you for being with us. Why is he getting his tag changed out? He actually had very convenient timing, Brian Coburger, because within days of the murder, both his actual license was also expiring and his registration. So he went in there and did it all together and switched his plate from a Pennsylvania one, which was the one he had on when he committed the murders to a Washington state one. And that's part of what we know by now he did to cover his tracks as well as wearing those bulky gloves wherever he went. Straight out to Joseph Scott Morgan joining us Professor Forensic, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star of a hit new podcast, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joseph Scott, thanks for being with us tonight. Joseph Scott, timing, timing, timing, timing is everything, changing out his tag. Wow. And just in case someone got the tag the night of the murders, he's there bright and early

7:23getting rid of that tag. Yeah, he is. And again, going to Hermione's comment, it is a matter of convenience, right? Now, how much more time did he have in order to do this? And why hadn't he done it in days prior to that? And so from a circumstantial standpoint, you begin to think about, hmm, I wonder, I wonder what his underlying rationale was for doing this. And of course, we'll never really know, but he shows up and it is very, very convenient for him to do this. Also, you know, he's, he's involved in in order to do this to walk in and hey, that car that he left the scene in is right outside that door, Nancy, right outside that door. You know what I'm thinking about right now? I'm thinking about what's the status of the interior of this car right now as it's right outside that door. I want to know, had he already begun to clean this thing up, you know, early on, I'd said that this car was going to be a rolling crime scene. And he held onto that car for a protracted period of time, because he was never caught up to, you know, had he begun to clean that car.

8:25Here he is walking from the outside in and he's looking back over his shoulder, you know, and now he's going to change the plates out and somehow that's going to put people off at that point in time, put them off the scent potentially. He did a little thing that he can do, that he still have the knife at this point, Nancy, is it out in the car? I don't know. You're seeing shots now. Please keep playing them. Brian Kiberger's White, Elantra, the Knight of the Murders, and you know, another thing. You know, I just want to keep looking at this video. Another thing, Joe Scott Morgan, when I visited his apartment in Pullman about 11 minutes away from the murder scene, I looked for cameras, cameras in, I looked at him, and he was in his parking lot there where he lived. I would love to find out if those cameras caught him cleaning out his car the way that he was caught under surveillance, not by cameras, but by actual law enforcement, cleaning out

9:26his car just in a weird way, cleaning it and cleaning it and cleaning it obsessively outside his parents' home in the Poconos. I guarantee you he did the same thing there in Pullman outside his apartment, and he has a big parking lot outside his apartment, a communal parking lot, and I guarantee you there are witnesses to him cleaning out his car. Yeah, I'm thinking about the silent witness. You talked about the CCTV potential here. Nancy, can you imagine if he is seen, if they have video captured, can you imagine him actually taking backs after he is clean and putting them in the car and then he is going to convey them somewhere else? One of the big questions is, what happened to all of the stuff? What happened to all of these potential items, particularly from a DNA standpoint, from a blood evidence standpoint, that could tie him back to this particular savage massacre? Have they been dumped off in some dumpster that's far away from the apartment complex?

10:29Did he take that much care? Here's something else. I work at a university, Nancy, it's like a little city, okay? It's vast. You've got dumpsters all over the place. What if he went back onto campus there in Pullman and just started throwing stuff away in the random dumpsters? No one is going to be any deweiser, however I can tell you this about universities. They've got CCTV everywhere, okay? You're always being watched. I really wonder if there's any video captures there from the university, parking lot going to dumpsters and putting stuff in the dumpsters there at Washington State. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, busted, caught on video. You're hearing Dr. Bethany and Hermione Rodriguez and Joseph Scott Morgan describing, could have would have shot all the evidence the prosecutor had to get the death penalty. But no, a weak plea.

11:30I would venture to guess that that prosecutor is the weak link in the judicial system, in the justice system that said, wait till you hear the rest of his very casual conversation with the DMV clerk, including about the murders. He just committed. What color is the vehicle? Yeah. What? And we have to know that you're on the mirror. And we have to know that Mr. Limita and you're on the floor. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. I wish you were. Was that the better package? Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Do they not have that one? I don't know. Thank you. Oh, okay. I am going to double think that I'm like I didn't want to be a year. I heard to be delivered because they just didn't have it until a year later.

12:31Yeah. Yeah. Or for. Yeah. Those are the most popular things all of that. Yeah. Absolutely. Are you a gyster? I am. I am. I'm from the Bay Area. I'm from the Bay Area. I'm actually from Newscro's. I'm from New York. Oh, okay. I'm hoping you guys don't get the urge. I'm hoping we do. So you're from New York. How are you liking it over here? Actually, I'm from Pennsylvania. Oh, yeah. And then you were? Yeah, but my family's from New York. Brooklyn. Brooklyn. Oh, and so that's how you... Yeah. Why do you ride off? I think I'd be really sad. Okay, that's very... Yeah, I mean, going up in the bay area, my grandma, my dad, her huge giant fan, so I'd like to fall in the family line. Yeah. I'm just... I don't even know what to say. There is Brian Coburger with blood, probably still under his fingernails.

13:31Talking about, are you a Giants fan? You know, to Phillip Dubay joining us, veteran trial lawyer has tried a lot of cases, LA County Public Defenders Office, and you know what? The public defender's office gets a lot of grief because people think they're free. They get paid by the government. They try more cases than practically any other defense attorney. They take all... They have to take all the cases nobody else wants. In other words, they get a lot of trial experience, just like prosecutors do. You can't turn it down. It's yours whether you want it or not. That said, Dubay. I'm not asking you to reveal any client confidence, of course. I wouldn't even waste my breath on that. But in all of your years in court, have you ever known somebody who was guilty and you look back and they're sitting across the table talking to you about sports and food and restaurants and activities and hobbies

14:31and they're a stone cold killer. It's really hard to reconcile that. Not for me because I look at it from a legal standpoint. I don't sit there and stand in judgment on my client. It's almost like a doctor in the ER or in the ICU at a hospital who has to treat a gang banger who just sprayed up a neighborhood and he got shot back and now he's in the hospital. The doctor has still had a Hippocratic oath to first do no harm and save the young man's life. Well, that's what we do in a legal context. We don't stand in judgment of our clients and we do whatever we can to protect their legal interests. I don't have to like them. Did I ask you if you judge them? Did I? No, I did not. Ask you if you judge them. I don't judge my witnesses. They are what they are. I take them as they come. I asked you that it ever dawn on you when you're having a casual convo with a stone cold killer

15:32that is kind of weird. That never hit you. Not really. Maybe in the first 10 years. Okay. Cut his mic right now because that's total BS lie, Dr. Bethany. He would have to be... Do they would have to have the emotions of like a frog? Have you ever held a frog? Probably not. Have you ever held a frog and it looks to you and it blanks and it has no emotion. It's cold, blooded, right? It feels nothing. That was BS. Any thinking person would get skewed out and I know that's not one of your psychological terms. When you know you've been sitting there talking to a stone cold killer, I don't mean a person that gets angry in the heat of the moment pulls the trigger. That's bad enough. But I mean stone cold. Sets out to murder somebody and in this case for no reason.

16:33No anger, no revenge, no sex motive, no theft motive. Not that that murder is any less horrible. But my point is carrying on a conversation, a normal conversation. And the whole time this guy could just reach over with a strap razor and slit your throat and he'd be fine with it. I do wonder Nancy when I see patients like that where I know they've committed a crime or worse yet they've come to therapy to actually gain some help in concealing the crime or their paranoid because they're about to be caught. I do have that even in my Beverly Hills office. And what's interesting is that their presentation is so smooth on the surface. And yet I know and they know I know something is going on. But furthermore, when you look at co-workers' affect, his emotions, the way he's talking to this woman, he is a really strange, strange guy. There's no picture I've ever seen of him where he looks normal. And anybody sitting in front of him is going to have to wonder

17:35what the heck is going on. But Nancy, there's something more. The digital evidence, the investigators that went through his phone, determined that he was quite obsessive and he had no friends other than his parents. So I believe that he's flirting with this woman at the DMV because that's the only person he can kind of lock down into a conversation because it's the DMV, right? I mean, they're there to serve their customers. Nancy, did you know he called his mother at five o'clock every single morning. Then he called his parents again to fall asleep. He almost stalked and pestered his parents. He would text his mother saying, five o'clock, question mark, she would text back 530, exclamation mark, exclamation mark, like don't call me so early in the morning. So since they were his only relationships, can you imagine? He has the 13 minutes with this woman at the DMV.

18:36She's not sitting in a bar with a drink. She knows she's safe. She knows she's behind the counter. So she's talking sports. And that's probably a very new experience for him. Given the fact that he probably creeped women out everywhere he went. Just got more again. Why will nobody answer my question? Why? I don't get it. It's a simple question. Now, I'm going to try with you. Pretty soon, I'll be going to her Monia Rodriguez. She's a reporter and may not have had this experience, but I think you have. Have you ever sat down with a stone-cold killer? And in retrospect, look back and went, he could just slit my throat. I thought about it. I don't think about it in the moment. Like when I'm trumped through a housing project trying to find a witness, when I'm sitting across the table from a killer, and we're talking about him rolling over on his co-definite killer, it's later that I let, because I'm in the moment and I can't afford to think about anything other than what I'm doing.

19:38But later, if you allow yourself to think about it, how can someone be apparently so normal yet? We know what he just did. We know what he just did. I mean, is nobody remembering what happened to Kelly? Kelly, go and solve this. He hit her so hard and beat her so hard and knocked her teeth out, just stabbing her in the face, in the face, the same thing to Maddie, just horrible, horrible, desecration of their bodies and their beauty. Not happy until the place was covered in blood. And here he is chatting up at DMV. Are you a giant fan? My rare end. That's the brutality of it. Because the thing about it is he can slip in and out of this world that we exist in even after having participated in this kind of event.

20:41And yeah, an answer to your question. When, as an investigator, when you're talking to somebody, you're in that moment, you're trying to elicit information from them. And I've had those moments, Nancy, where I go to a very dark place afterwards when I have time to think about who I was just indwelling the same space with, who I was just breathing the same oxygen. And I think about what kind of horror that they have just committed. Maybe multiple times, over and over again, but yet I'm trying to get information out of them. And so yeah, it's a really dark place to go to, but you see this kind of psychopathy with him. And again, I'm getting into Dr. Bethany's space. I apologize for that, but you have to admit, when you see these images from the scene, Nancy, and I know you have, as well as I have as well, this place is blood saturated. This kind of drives home the point of what an animalistic event this was at the scene, and that he can flip this switch, turn in on and off.

21:41And you know, he's got that kind of, I don't know, it looks like, do you remember back in the 60s, when they had the chimpanzees that would smile blankly? You know, they had those, the chimpanzee smile. That's what he looks at, like, you know, the dead eyes, kind of the fake smile looking back and forth. And I think that that might be what Dr. Bethany's talking about, or it's just very, very dark. There's a disconnect here, where he has no remorse, whatsoever. He certainly had no compassion at that moment, Tom. And here we are dangling in the wind. All of this time later, they copped this plea on this guy, and he never allocated to anything. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Tell me exactly which one is not. Um, one of our, one of the roommates has passed out, and she was drunk last night, and she's not wakey up. Okay. Oh, and they saw some men in their house last night. Yeah.

22:42Hi, this is me. And are you with the patient? Okay, I need someone to keep the phone, stop passing it around. Can I just tell you what happened pretty much? What is going on currently? Is someone passed out right now? I don't really know, but pretty much it's 4 AM. Okay. I need to know what's going on right now, if someone has passed out. Can you find that out? Yeah, I'll come. Come on, but be a medical check. What we have to do? One of the gals, y'all, is something there's somebody in the house. Oh, somebody in the house. Do you want to hear what you're saying? As a signal, they may have never been downstairs. We can only wonder how a jury would have reacted seeing this video. Now, the defense would try to stop it at trial, claiming it was irrelevant, which is one of the weakest objections you can raise at trial. Why? Because it doesn't hold anything on appeal. What do I mean by that? If you make an objection at trial, and you say objection irrelevant,

23:43you're not preserving anything for a pellet review. That does not qualify as an appealable error. You have to say something like objection inflammatory. Objection hearsay. Objection is not the highest and best evidence. You have to have a real foundation, not just interrupting the other lawyers' flow of questioning. When somebody, when a defense attorney or prosecutor, objection irrelevant, it's usually overruled. Once in a while, you might get a sustain. But the defense would try to stop this as being irrelevant, because they don't want the jury to see his cold and duplicitous nature that he can be a killer and act like a normal guy, like nothing ever happened, which totally would freak the jury out. But the prosecutor would raise one day,

24:44respond that the jury can consider evidence before, during, and after the crime. So this would have been allowed at trial. This would be in front of the jury, and I'm very curious to know what you think as you are watching Brian Coburger, a stone-cold killer of defenseless coeds, half asleep with a knife, a k-bar. Just imagine him going from room to room, slaughtering, slaughtering those four students, and liking it, then turning up at the DMV to get a new license and a new tag and carrying on completely normal conversation. You hear the phraseology, the description,

25:45Dr. Jekyll, Mr. Hyde, a lot. This is him. Let's watch. Or are you? I am. I am originally from the Bay Area. Yeah. Okay. And I like living up here much better than you. I know. You happen to have the purge supporters when you bought it? Yeah. He's different, right? I like how we're controlled, why it is, why it would be safe, but the law says they can kind of make it a little less safe right now. Yeah. She says, I like how small, quiet, and I would say safe, but the whole Moscow thing kind of makes it feel a little less safe. And at that point, Hermania Rodriguez-Poleo, investigative journalist, he clams up. He doesn't say anything. He just stands there, goes quiet. Did you notice that? It's so creepy and shocking considering how he was acting

26:48just seconds before. One could even argue they were a little bit of flirting just talking about sports, how nice the area is until that moment. And it's truly chilling because the moment she mentions the murders, Brian Cobrager's mask sort of slips. And he's all of a sudden not so talkative and just given a one word answers. It's really fascinating to watch that mask fall off. And that, Dr. Bethany Marshall, is what we mean by non-verbal communication. He immediately switches the conversation to, I think, the weather. Yes. Nancy, social passwear, what I've called so many times the mask of sanity. It's not my term, it's a research term, and that means that they can act and pass as normal in society, even though there's so much going on underneath the surface. And in fact, with Cobrager, one of the things we know was going on beneath the surface was that most of the searches on his phone

27:49were for non-consexual sex pornography. There was no search for normal pornography. It was all non-consensual, whatever that means. So he's in this situation where the mask starts to slip just a little bit because she brought it up and he clams up. I think he's thinking, you know, he's an obsessive guy. He's probably going through his mind wondering what she knows, what everybody else knows. And also, he doesn't have the power in that situation. Have you ever been to the TMV? They have the power. You don't have the power. So he's in a situation where he has to like play nice, follow the rules, get his tags. He can't intimidate, threaten, or stand over her, like he did all the university students when he was a teacher's aide, right? Or the women at the bars where he was so creepy and standing over them that the bartenders and the bar owners had to ask him to leave. No, this is the TMV. He has to act and pass as normal,

28:49but even their Nancy, it's hard for him to do that. That's what we see when he clams up. And, of course, the big tell is the big rubber gloves. I was just looking at everyone else there. Nobody else is wearing gloves. So, to you, Philip DeBae, veteran trial lawyer joining us out of the LA jurisdiction, Philip, how would you keep the jury from seeing this video? To be honest with you, I don't have a problem with them seeing it. You got to remember the time of year. When was this December? It's probably colder than an Arctic outhouse there. And a man can put some gloves on to keep warm. He's just coming in from the outdoors. So, people who are working there behind the counter probably have a space heater and some warmth going on. So, I think that would be unfair to judge him based on that. Now, when she does bring up the Moscow forum murder, he does get a little skittish. He starts shifting his weight around. He goes from one foot to the next, and he's looking a little paranoid, obsessive, and frankly a little scared.

29:49But he manages to still engage in the pleasantries in the small talk to throw anybody and everybody off the scent. So, I don't find anything unusual about this. And moreover, one final point. Remember, he is a non-resident of Washington. So, they have what's called the 30 and 183-day rule, meaning that he's got to get his tags and his plate's current within the 30-day and the 183-day period, especially if he has a job. Otherwise, he can be cited and fined, and maybe even do some jail time and have his car impounded and stored. Okay, thank you for the dissertation on the traffic law. To just Scott Morgan. So, to hear Debate tell it, he's absolutely fine. If his client is having a convo, and it's caught on tape, and the woman says, I'm really scared of the, you know, after the Moscow murders. And their client goes, isn't the weather awesome?

30:49I love the sun. How do you feel about the sun? That doesn't bother you. Of course, it would, particularly now in hindsight, knowing what we know from this perspective, what had just occurred, just, you know, well, let's break it down within hours of preceding him walking into this place. You know, they're still out at the scene at this point. Nancy, I think that that's very important here, because we're focused on him, and I know that we have the videography of him there. But let's think about this just for a moment. They're still out there, Nancy. They're still out there working that scene at that particular time. The bodies have not necessarily been sent to families at this point in time, but yet there he is, and all of his glory on CCTV. You know, people are still scratching their heads over this thing at this point in time. You remember what it was like during that period of time? We were thinking, you know, is this beast walking up and down the street? Who is this individual?

31:50And there he is. There he is in full and living color on CCTV, acting like he's just, you know, showing up, you know, to change out his tags. And yeah, you can see that she grabs his attention as soon as the Moscow crimes come up at that moment in time. And again, that adds another level of chill to this, Nancy. You're going to be the worst. Behead him? Nope. Oh, by me. We're going to fly right here. Yeah. That's definitely not above your grad. You know, I was like, I really enjoy the movie. How about you? Yeah. You could send him an interesting movie or a certain one. It's a book. Did you give this title? It's the book. You might have been thrown into the movie and they went to a third. Did you send your title? So. Okay. So that is it, is like, you really want to be. Yeah. No. You want to be a rocker still? Wow. So, you know, I always do with like a really big university. You know, when I said, surprise me. You hear that many people.

32:50Wow. Yeah. But I did hear good things, you know. They got this program. Okay. So. Yeah. So you do have to program. But always like. Yeah. So I plan on being around for a little while and doing the program. And then you were like, yes. I do like full men. Okay. But. So. I'm sorry. Yeah. Yeah. I may have to go. Right here. Talk about a self-importance snoot. Bethany, did you hear that? Hey, do you have the university here? Yeah. PhD. I'm definitely not an undergrad. And then she says, impressive. Like, he's moving towards breaking and posturing at that point. Probably what he does everywhere in his life, right? He tries to brag and then serve himself into. Positions of superiority and importance. And so it's like it. It just takes only a couple minutes, Nancy, before he starts to brag and become grandiose and circle back

33:51to what a great guy he is. And then also in her walking up, I heard a scream and she ran upstairs because she saw someone. That's what I'm pretty sure. She said she's someone's here. And she screamed and just ran downstairs. And I called for a name. I jumped up and locked my door because I was so scared. And then I heard someone in the bathroom when I heard her crying. I heard some guys saying that you're going to be okay and I hope you, and I kept calling your name, but she wasn't answering. And then I... He calls mommy. Speaks nearly an hour driving around the crime scene. Crime co-worker did not pretend he was sane. It was a parent who was a child. It was... It was a parent to everybody around him. Literally just hours after committing for brutal, cold, blooded murders, Brian Cobrager waltzes into the DMV to get a new tag and license. How he kept his straight face

34:53and carried on normal conversation is a wonder. It's a curiosity. Let's listen. We've titled Schumann in the Mail and about, and so keep an eye out for that. Within a month he saw the scene and just let us know because we can reissue it at the moment. Okay. Oh my god. Oh my god. We'll make sure the one's with us. We can go on the back of the rig and the one who's out on the front. And I know. And yes, we've gone through it now. So if you ever celebrate it, it's like, it can't be like, it's fine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why? I don't know. Why? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, for you, you're, I don't know. We're like one of the only things to require. And I want you to be right back. You're all set. Good to go. And those things like, you already have these. Yeah. Okay. Oh, and be a testimony. You play some of these. Yeah. You should have double check with the information. And maybe you might say, you're required to get in the back. Or they are little cars.

35:54I don't need the car. So I'll talk to you with that car. Yeah, you need to be good. I want to check a lot of your getting close to me to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Really? Yeah. You too. Have a great weekend. Sure. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Did you just got Morgan? Did you hear him say, have a good one? Yeah. Actually, I did. You know, just business is usual, right? Going back out to the car. And I guess tooling back off to his apartment there in on campus at Washington State University, Nancy. Yeah. Just very calm collected at that moment in time. And again, I think that this is some kind of gate that he kind of passed through here. You know, just kind of testing the waters. I wonder if this is the first time he was out and about after these events. You know, did he decide to, yeah, well, I think I'll just go out and do it. It looks like it's really illuminated out there.

36:55I think I'll just go out in the sunny day and get my car and run down to the DMV stick my toe in the water and see if anybody emerges from around the counter or around the corner to put the bracelets on me and haul me away. And he passed that gate, didn't he? So, you know, I begin to think about that. And then, reflectively, I think again about the absolute destruction and horror that he left in his wake at that apartment or at that house, their onking road. So for me, you know, trying to, trying to balance these two things out his appearance at that, at that, at that counter. And then what had happened is really hard to try to understand. You know, they never said criminal investigation is easy. Certainly not when you're talking about a massacre on this scale. Also tonight, we have obtained body cam. I want you to hear it as well. We're going to seal this pathway up here pretty quick and all four victims are waiting for a few of your homes.

37:58Once we get evidence stuff accountable, I'm going to leave here and come back in the morning, basically. You have to get to a place where you're, you're good to stop and you're good to stop and we'll just get up here and wait. All right, I'm going to take you up. She heard something around the room on the screen. She said one of the victims claimed that she thought it was. She had heard that same victim. Yes, something to be effected after someone in the house. She went to the upper door, but she saw someone at the top of the stairs shut her door. A little bit later, a few minutes later, she heard female crying. She got to get to the same victim, but they not have been trying in the bathroom. She heard a male voice that she did not recognize to say something to the blind of the effects of. It's okay, I'm here for you. A little bit later after that, she opened up the door again and saw a male dressed in black. And then he called with love or sometimes a mask over his face.

38:59He's standing by the back door here in the slider. She claimed he's engaged, basically. He got out of the eye. They made high heart attacks, she shared her heart. She's pretty sure that they were with her. And shortly after that, she called the other roommate downstairs. She made those for someone in the house. The other roommate said, come down here. You can see the face as she went down there. That is a stark contrast you're talking about, Joe Scott Morgan. You've got him at the DMV setting. Hey, have a good one. Right after this, where the roommate realizes her four others, the four others have been murdered. And she somehow was spared. And she looked at the killer in the eyes and somehow escaped death. And you hear it start off all four victims on the way to the funeral home. I mean, that is just like a slap, a cold slap in the face for the victims' families. All four on the way to the funeral home just so casually tossed off.

40:02Yeah, yeah, it is. And you know, I go back to what what the police officers stated relative to the comment that Coburger made about I'm here to help you. I wonder if he had that same stupid grin on his face with those dead eyes as he was saying that there. And in amongst that bloodbath that he had created. And again, in this kind of passe way, you know, just like he's talking at the counter right here, almost robotic. I wonder if that's the way he treated those victims inside of that environment. Did he ever did his blood pressure ever increased at his pulse rate ever increased? Or was he just an absolute animal? And again, removing the bodies from the scene and you're, you know, this is kind of one of the first times that we've really heard this is very intimate information about the bodies being removed from the scene so that they can go to the funeral home and then be transported over for the autopsies that would follow later.

41:03And again, I go back to this idea that he's at the DMV while all of this is happening. And again, this is that night. But just thinking that they're still out there processing the scene. Remember what the police officer said? They said, we'll come back in the morning and we'll get started again. I guess it first light. They're still working the same Nancy in real time. I think a lot of people forget about that. And particularly you match it up with his interaction at the DMV. And it really sends a chill of your spawn. Dr. Bethany, last name is Joe Scott talking just then. I guess when you're a victim of violent crime, it never, it never goes away because when I heard the body can all four victims down the way the funeral home. And then I heard Joe Scott talking about it. I remember when my fiance was murdered, it didn't seem real. I thought, oh, if I can just get to him, I can fix it. He said a car accident, maybe this is wrong. And then I saw my pastor right, Bernstein funeral home.

42:06I can remember that. It just happened. I wonder if the victim's parents have heard that body can. I hope they haven't. I mean, they've seen a lot worse. But there's just something about the finality and a funeral home and the smell of all those fake flowers. It just makes it all real. You know, Nancy, there's such a finality to death. And how a loved one dies is important. I lost a husband to cancer many years ago and I'll never forget him being wheeled out on a stretcher to go to the funeral home. And it was the look he was in the body bag. I couldn't see his face anymore. He had died in our home. And anything that is reminiscent of that reminds me of that night. Even the color black, even the word funeral home. Any tiny little thing can cause that kind of a flashback.

43:07And there's something so tragic about this scene I want to point out. The DMV clerk says, you're good to go. I think she's trying to push them along at that point. She has the power to push them along. She's behind the counter. She's safe. Did you see that dog in the video? There's a dog running around. You know, her friends and colleagues are all around her. These four victims in this home could not move him along. They could not. They were half asleep. He had a caber knife. He's more powerful than them. They're not in a safe place like the DMV worker. Nancy, his biggest preoccupation. Coburgers was a guy named Danny Rollings. The Gainesville Ripper, who committed a similar crime. Targeted college students dressed in black, used a caber knife. Sexually assaulted the victims first. I do believe this could have been worse. I do believe something happened where he was not able to sexually assault them

44:08before committing the crime. He was too inexperienced and a novice got interrupted, heard a noise. We cannot imagine what happened. We cannot imagine how the parents feel. But trust me, every day they are thinking about the loss of their kids. And they are going in horrifying detail over all the interactions, all the details, all the horrors of that night. And just hoping their children were spared the worst. To the Moscow victims. Rest in peace. And to their families. God spade to you. You are still in so many prayers. We remember an American hero officer, Adam Buckner, to San PD. Killed in the line of duty, living behind. A grieving wife, now widow. American hero, officer, Adam Buckner.

45:11Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye friend.