JP Miller: Why Police Kept Believing Him

0:00This is the Big Breakdown. A long look back at some of the biggest stories we're covering for you at the Hidden Killers Podcast and True Crime Today. This is Hidden Killers. With Telly Brusky. Just when you thought it couldn't get anywhere in the story of Pastor JP Miller and his family. Oh, it does. Oh my God. There's been allegations against JP's dad for years. We've known about that. There's been allegations against JP for a long time. And there's some. Are we following along? What's the trend we're seeing here? Like father, like son. Like father, JP, by the way, is dad, unfortunately. I know he had children. Like son.

1:02That's what a lot of people are saying and thinking now that they're learning about JP's own children or at least one of them who's an adult who looks creepily like JP who seems to have according to allegations in a 9-1-1 call made by Micah Miller. Possibly some of the same proclivities is dad and grandpa. Surprise. I know that never happens. Again, allegations. Let's get into the family story of the millers. Shall we? February 7th of 2024, a woman calls 9-1-1 from a gas station in Florence, South Carolina. She asked the dispatcher to send someone to her own house because uninvited people are inside and two laptops and there have intimate photos of her on them. She says she says something to the dispatcher that the dispatcher probably was not expecting.

2:04Her husband's son, she says, hit her in her kitchen the other day. Without her husband there, she told him it wasn't appropriate or hit on her, I should say. Hit on her in her kitchen the other day without her husband there. She told him it wasn't appropriate and she told him to get out. She texted her husband about it afterward. She wants those laptops out of the house before anyone in that family. Guests to them, you know. Like your creepy son. Eight days later, she's done another 9-1 line. She's using her father's phone because she says her husband took hers. She wants an emergency pickup of her husband, not a 72-hour hold, because she says he's a flight risk. Then she starts talking about the son again.

3:05He allegedly, according to her husband, following her around town, she says. In his coastal painting truck, his business decked out with a name on it. He rolled the window down. When she rolled hers down, he's a felon she says he has guns. He's been living in the house she left. She says her husband tried to throat punch her. She says a whole family scares her. Fitz news published both those calls. The woman on those tapes, Micah Miller. She was 30 years old when she died on April 27th, 24. Two civil lawsuits filed in early 25, named two defendants. John Paul Miller and his father, Reginald Wayne Miller. Both lawsuits alleged the same pattern across two decades. The complaints described the Miller family's churches and school in the complaints own language and a hunting area for underage females. The girls of those lawsuits were 14 and 15.

4:05Jando number one is an Indiana woman. She alleges J.P. Miller forced himself on her in 1998 when she was 15 and he was 19. He was a youth leader and musician at his father's cathedral Baptist church. 25 years later in 23, she confronted him in Myrtle Beach about what he'd done. She tells you the alleges his response is five words, no manners without sin and temptation. Then further suit he assaulted her again. Jando number two alleges J.P. assaulted her starting in 1999 when she was 14 at Cathedral Hall Academy. The school attached to the church, the lawsuit says the school met in a repurposed bowling alley with no certified teachers and no real coursework. When this girl reported what was happening to the teacher, she was sent to a regional Miller's office. J.P. was already in the room. The lawsuit alleged the Miller's called her a servant of Satan told her she would be assaulted by demons,

5:05burned her Harry Potter book and a regional beat her with a Bible. Godly both suits alleged J.P. openly admitted to misconduct with underage church members in admission. The complaint say was corroborated by multiple witnesses. J.P. denies every allegation. He countersued Jando number one for slander and libel. No criminal charges related to those allegations happened filed against either man. Now look at who the girl was sent to. She reported what happened in that system. She reported what happened and the system sent her to a regional Wayne Miller's office. That happened because Reginald built the system. See, Reginald founded his first church in Florence, South Carolina in 1972. Bible college by the mid 1970s. A morning TV show called Good Morning Jesus by the mid 1980s. He was running what was described as the largest charismatic church in eastern South Carolina.

6:06In 1987, the wives of two Bible college students accused him of making inappropriate advances on their husbands. In 1989, a local TV station aired a five part investigation. Students described those advances. Faces blurred voices disguised. His ex wife, Susan Miller filed her own affidavit when she saw custody of their children in 2001. She says Reginald's obsession with power and control extended beyond his immediate family and into the church where he engaged in inappropriate relationships with young men and women. The criminal charges were filed. The ministry packed up and moved from Florence to Mertle Beach. The church changed its name. 2006, Reginald was arrested at a bathhouse at Mertle Beach State Park. Charge of ludeness and prostitution after he allegedly exposed himself to an undercover officer. He George Michael did. That charge went through pretrial intervention and was expunged.

7:11On that, on that February 15th call, Michael, Michael told the nine-in-one dispatcher that J.P.'s father was a registered offender. The public record does not support that. The bathhouse case was expunged and the federal conviction is for labor fraud, which doesn't really put anybody on a registry. Certainly, he says a lot about character. What Michael believed about that family and what the documents actually show are two different things. Or what the law caught up to. Maybe that's more appropriate. There are two different things. That distinction matters for everything that follows. A federal case landed in 2014, a grand jury and died at Reginald for labor and visa fraud through his Bible college. He recruited 16 foreign students to the promises of employment and education. What the gap was work, 30 to 56 hours a week at the college and at his house for a little to no pay. Whether immigration status held over them if they refused.

8:11Over $244,000 in documented violations, he pled guilty. The sentence, time served roughly four months behind bars, plus three years of supervised released in $75,000 in a restitution. That restitution covered less than half of what was owed to the students and reportedly remains unpaid. After the supervision ended, Reginald left for Pakistan to do missionary work. Can't cut it in your own country. Pakistan is calling. Local church members there posted a video asking him to never come back. On August 12th of 2026, it's 77 years old, Reginald pled guilty to receiving stolen goods in a South Carolina courtroom. He did it on the day his jury trial was scheduled. He lost both Jane Doe lawsuits by default because he never answered them allegedly. When a reporter from Fitznews reached him by email, he questioned the 23 years of repressed memories in those lawsuits. He says he has nothing for them to take.

9:13JP, his son founded Solid Rock Ministries in06 and acquired his father's old market common property, a former Air Force-based chapel in 2013. At his peak, he controlled nearly $6 million in real estate and owned a private plane, allegedly. Netflix documentary, Death of a Pastors wife shows him preaching from the pulpit that a wife who doesn't meet her husband's needs commits a sin, that if she doesn't comply temptations, we place in her husband's path. Mike met JP at his church. And a police reporter, Tain Thrufoya, Mike had told an officer she had known JP since she was 10, 10 years old. And that he had pursued her since she worked for him at Solid Rock. You know, when she was a ripe old age of 14, most coverage of this case, including the Netflix documentary, says she was 13 when they met. She worked as a family's nanny.

10:13The relationship began supposedly when she was 20 and he was 35 married with five children. In 2017, she found tracking devices on her car. She told police she was afraid for her life. We've been talking about this case. She told her sister Sierra in a statement, Sierra later put under oath in a probate affidavit. If I end up with a bullet in my head, it was JP. She fell for divorce twice. In her final months, her fits news, FOIA of Hori County Police Records, Mike contacted police at least 14 times seeking help related to JP. Five of those calls mentioned tracking devices on her vehicle. Two days after serving divorce papers, for the last time she drove to Lumber River State Park in North Carolina, she was 30. Her death was ruled as asked by two jurisdictions. JP announced it from the pulp at the next day and told the congregation not to discuss it. Don't talk about this in church. JP is now federally indicted for cyber stalking, Micah, and lying to investigators.

11:16Not for causing her death, prosecutors allege. He contacted her as many as 50 times in a single day, placed tracking devices on her vehicle and posted intimate photos of her online without her consent. He has pled not guilty. Of course he has. Entrugrandios Narcissist fashion. His defense says filed six motions for continuance trials set for October of 26. Now let's go back to the document that ties these two generations together. Alison Williams, JP's first wife, one month after Micah died, Williams filed a sworn emergency custody after David in Hory County Family Court. She wanted her two youngest children out of JP's house and she wanted a psychological evaluation before he got them back. And then affidavit she states under oath that JP confessed something to her. He told her he had been inappropriate with several underage female members of their church. His explanation for what he had done was that he says. Was because those things haven't done to him as a child for years.

12:17Allegedly at the hands of his own father, Reginald Wayne Miller. Williams says she went to the girls in 2015 and asked them to come forward. They were too scared of JP to go to police. The church's leadership allegedly knew they asked JP to enroll in a program. They never completed it and they kept them at the pulpit. That is the document linking father and son through JP's own reported words. The church said allegedly knew about both of them chose to offer a class instead of making a phone call to police. Now listen to what Micah told 9-1-1 about the next generation in the house. Logan Ryan Hardy, JP's oldest son. He doesn't use a name Miller. Hmm, wonder why? On January 7th, 2024, Hori, County police responded to a home on Hagwood Circle in Conway about 2 30 in the morning. They found a woman slumped against a wall going in and out of consciousness.

13:19She had a laceration on her right hand and pain in her head and left shoulder. Police say Hardy hit her in the back of her head with a glass bottle after an argument. Then fled. He turned himself in later that day at a subway. Eat fresh. He told police the woman had shredded his documents. And he broke her computer in retaliation. He was booked into the J Rubin Long Detention Center on a charge of first degree domestic violence of felony in South Carolina and released the same day. Logan called him a felon on the February 15th call. The public record shows his felony charge. The outcome of that case has not been located in public reporting more than 2 and a half years later. Logan is not charged with anything close to what his father and grandfather face in those complaints. What he is in Micah's own recorded voice on two published 9-1-1 calls is the next person in that family who made her afraid.

14:29That's what we're looking at. He allegedly hit on her in her kitchen hit on her. She says when her husband wasn't home. And she told him to get out. He followed her across town in his painting truck. She says and rolled the window down when she did. He was living in the house that she fled. And he had been charged with a felony allegedly five weeks before that first call for putting a woman in the hospital with a glass bottle of the back of the head. You know, like you've been saying, all these Jesus-y things they do there. Two men named in lawsuits alleging a pattern that stretches across churches and decades. One of them federally indicted for cyber stalking his wife through phones, trackers, and pavement a 77-year-old who pled guilty to something else entirely. On the day a jury was supposed to hear it and his son charged with felony domestic violence whose painting truck shows up in a dead woman's 9-1-call.

15:37A church that has changed its name at least four times and moved cities at least once. Mercy Church is what they call it now. Susie Skinner leads worship. Her first husband, Aquagrapalegic, Army veteran named Chris Skinner, drowned in September 2021. Under what many consider so much suspicious circumstances, the death was ruled an accident. JP married Susie on June 1st to 25. About 13 months after Mike had died. No criminal charges related to the allegations in those lawsuits have been filed against anyone in this family. The civil suit remains pending. No man is without sin and temptation according to JP. The Ministry of Reginald Wayne Miller started in Florence, South Carolina in 1972. It's still open. Your thoughts in the comment section on Substack in YouTube. There's a lot more to come in this case and we're going to keep bringing it to you. Press subscribe so you don't miss any of our coverage. Until next time, I'm Tony Bruceke. We'll talk again real soon.

16:53This is Hidden Tillers Live with Tony Bruceke and Robin Drake. Let's continue on in the weeks before her death. Micah Miller called 911 several times regarding GPS trackers on her car and stolen belongings 14 times. Meanwhile, JP filed a mental health pickup order telling police she was bipolar and offer medications. JP really proactively told police that Micah was bipolar, schizophrenic and having an episode to explain away her cries for help. Now, it's not to say that there could have been actual mental health problems going on there. That could have existed. But when you look at the environment, she was angry. I wonder what was exacerbating that. How common is it for a narcissist or a sociopath, abusers like this to intentionally terrorize a victim in private, only to use that trauma, that trauma response when they're out there.

17:59Hey, everybody, this isn't right or they're reacting to label them as crazy or unstable to authorities or friends or family or anybody looking in to make sure that nobody truly sees what's going on. And disturbingly, how successful are they typically in telling that tale? I think there's a lot of this. It's probably under reported, but this, you know, it would be I was watching this, of course, thinking, boy, I'd love to look at all her medical records and what they documented in the hospital. And, you know, because you wonder bipolar disorder is a pretty serious diagnosis. And one of the videos that apparently he had recorded, she did sound psychotic in what she was saying. But can trauma drive a person into a state like this when it's ongoing trauma they feel trapped? I think there's evidence that that can happen and it may look psychotic and may look like bipolar disorder.

19:00But it can certainly be, you know, severe anxiety, depression, feeling trapped, hyper vigilance, and, you know, for her to not submit to him, meant that she was refusing to follow God or to love God. And so that's quite a double bind to be in and could that exacerbate maybe somebody who had existing vulnerabilities? And I think she had vulnerabilities. And so there could have been, you know, an underlying mood disorder bipolar condition and the stress of this marriage triggered it and managed to manifest. Shivon, could it also because what's another interesting facet of this, not just her medical history, mental health history, which again we've been covering so much of and learning so much about because of Lindsey Clancy on tragically. But he was really telling her so much because like part of what I picked up also was every time he's having an interaction with someone including the congregation, he's always focusing on his actions.

20:06It's like a bad 911 call when the perpetrator calls it in can always tell because they're not worried about the victim. They're worried about what their role was and what they were doing so they're creating their own alibi. He did that a lot throughout this. But part of that narrative, he kept preaching everyone else. He was also preaching her. So how, how can that also affect her own mental health? If he's telling her she's bipolar and she's adjustable and he's the pastor. So I have to listen to him. I mean, he's telling her what she has to submit to sexually. Was it five times a day? This was the creepiest. It's not her saying. Yeah. And so could that also play into her be, I mean, can someone basically become bipolar or at least exasperated if some continually tells you you are because he was doing that as well? I would call it more a chronic CT, chronic PTSD response. And that is where, how, you know, we've been talking a lot about mental hospitals and how good of a job do these programs do.

21:08I think if she was in a really good program where they spent enough time assessing her and really got into what is your lifestyle like? What are these symptoms like and how is this all correlated that that could have been picked up that, you know, what? There's really more of a trauma response going on here than than bipolar. But it's really hard to know and it's hard to know what the quality of care that she got was unfortunately. It'd be really interesting to see when it goes a trial because again, I know he's not being charged with the death or anything, but I'll be interesting to see what kind of searches they do on his computers and Google searches and things like that. I think it's interesting because of all these things that it looks like he was doing intentionally. Did he research him? Was he thinking about them? I mean, I would be very curious on all these different aspects because he seemed to be doing things pretty intuitively that would have taken that normal human beings wouldn't think of or even think of how to doing it. He seemed to be pretty fluid with it. Yeah, somebody mentioned gas lighting off the chart, off the chart gas lighting here.

22:08The good definition. There's a person who's doing this level of gas lighting in bullshit. Does he actually, did he want her back truly or did he want to destroy her? What was the ultimate goal at the end of the day exactly what happened? I'm going to make life so hellish for her with the GPS trackers on the car posting the the new photos of her online tracking her in real time telling everybody she's got this and that and oh my gosh, it's just such a sad, horrible story. Is the ultimate goal I'm going to drive her so mad she's going to go to the woods and do this or is it I'm going to get to her so much that she's only going to turn back to me because I provide such a lovely home to live with in such a great partnership that she clearly will come back. I mean, is it a little above? I mean, did they even know? Do you think he even knows what the hell the goal is at the end of the day? I've been he's just flailing in his his psionic way of look at me and here's what I want me me me me me me me but never really quite understanding where the next, you know, Lily Patties jumping to is.

23:16Yeah, I think it can go both ways. Good good. Good question. There's obviously a need for power and control and entitlement he wanted to own her. I mean, she had his name tattooed on her body early on. Yeah, she belonged to him in her wedding vows. She said something like I wrote it down 100% of what I am I give to you. And then in his his sermons were a wife must respect and honor. And so I think he liked you know, apparently for quite some time he succeeded in feeling like he owned her. And I think he kind of got a high from that. And so he I'm just guessing but I think he had a strong attachment to her and wanted her back. But if he couldn't make it work as it was not working near the end, then I think it really was about I'm just going to go after her and try to do what I can to destroy.

24:17Yeah, I wrote down their wedding vow when they said it. She said she will give 100% to him in all areas even to make his dreams come true. His response. I won't try to best act. So so Shavon say he's unchecked and this continues he continues. He's on a he's an art. He's on an arc. He's got a life arc on this. Where does it go if he's unchecked? There's a guy like this then eventually say you know what this whole one wife thing just really is ensued me. I need more. I mean is does someone like this escalate into trying to get into FLDS or something like that because I mean in other words, would he ever be satiated in any way? I think you know we see a pattern right in future behavior we can guess is based on past behavior. He really wants to be a preacher. He loves being in front of people apparently even after what is it solid rock the neat yeah solid rock sort of went defonked.

25:25He's started a new one again and he's got another wife and I but we know he's so sexually compulsive. He's not going to be faithful to her and this weird behavior is going to keep coming out. So my guess is he's just going to keep repeating repeating repeating. He likes having a woman under his thumb and yeah, that's my best guess. This is just pure conjecture but but the new wife Susie I believe Susie Skinner anything. Take I mean take Micah out of the equation to a certain extent. I mean just just observing John Paul's behavior in general. I mean who the hell is looking at this man going I got to get me some of him like he seems like quite the catch. I mean it's just just the the the life arc. I mean just even I mean I don't know I mean I don't understand what on earth is going through anyone's mind a rational thinking human beings mind to be like this is my partner I should stay with him and maybe that's the answer it's not a rational thought.

26:34Look at some bait. They gave that. And got all those got all those wise. I know I mean that was under a and again I can understand bait me and even more because it's more of a cult dynamic and these people don't really know a world outside of you know that closed off community. These are people who live in the rest of the world and see the rest of the world. This is it's not like Susie hasn't had another life. You know quadriplegic husband dies in the pool under weird circumstances. I mean I don't know the whole damn thing is weird in your pastor steals your wife. Everybody looks at this like oh it's love. I mean or that's what they expect people to think. I mean I can't is it really Shivan when you look at like someone like Susie and people that are still going to what's left of his church. Are these people who are just they're way too close to the sun they can't see it I mean what I mean at some point. Are you just kind of kind of go well you know the ones who got out got out these are the ones who they're they're 200 mentally to ever really.

27:40See the light here and unless someone intervenes they're going to be another victim of his or they're just going to find the next charismatic cook that comes along. Yeah those are the the women that I think you know when you look at who could you make an impact here with some kind of therapy. Those are the women that I think you could work with it's like because my guess is there's something in their past that has really impaired their judgment when it comes to what is love what what is a healthy relationship. They don't know they don't know and they're going to you know and being with a man like this certainly which we saw with Micah. You start to lose your mind after a while you become anxious depressed hyper vigilant you get trauma symptoms his sexual behavior alone. Yeah. Would cause some unhealthy responses in a partner and so those are the folks I would like to sit down with and really explore what is the attraction here and what is in your background.

28:42That would make you feel like you're worthy of someone like this because there's something there. You know there are a course of control laws in certain states and hopefully that expands further as time goes on. The a lot of people are looking at this doc there's some insinuation in there of like well it's weird where the gun landed and we can give that a little bit but at the end of the day this and I've examined this case for years. It truly I mean it does not look like he actually killed her like bang bang with the gun or anything like that by all accounts I mean she's on to I mean it's pretty well documented looks like she off herself. I think that's an established fact in this case it's still because it make it any better it's how she got there though I mean not physically she's the appears to have driven herself she's on camera. But but mentally how how she got there. We've seen cases where a teen has suggested to another teen who wanted to end their life go ahead and do it and they've been charged you know it believes it's an accessory to the murder or something of that nature.

29:51When you don't necessarily have exactly that you don't necessarily have I mean as far as we know in the record him saying yeah go do this to yourself but but just the torturous behavior that leads someone there of like I have no choice I'm better off dead which seems to be kind of what she was thinking at the moment. How do is that something we can ever truly go after because it seems this sort of torturous behavior that people did it to each other I mean this is what we see on camera this is what's documented but I think a lot of us throughout our lives could could look at people we've known or known and go yeah they've done that to people are they've been a victim of that and it's just it seems to be how life works for a lot of people should there be should that be something that is looked at closer should there be penalties for really really horrible behavior. That leads people down some of these paths I sure vote I sure vote for that how can we and I know that there are lots of gray areas with how do you define coerce of control I mean I call it a long standing pattern of deceit entitlement exploitation lack of empathy and certainly this case fit all of those things you've got the monitoring devices the razor blades and the tires yeah.

31:09The threats the 50 phone calls in a day trying to harass her we need better ways to intervene in that because that kind of thing I think for a vulnerable person who's been told she's not mentally well and to what degree was that this treatment that she was getting or or you know was there an underlying mental health condition we can't be sure. But we need to do a better job of you know I think police officers they're not social workers and and can we embed more social worker I mean this is just my random idea I don't know if anybody would think it was possible but who when there's this kind of complaint going on can a social worker who's affiliated with the police department go out and spend time with the victim and really try to weigh through. What is the evidence here what are your options and then get the law enforcement system to intervene sooner and to do more and you know if he had spent a bit of time in jail for some of this behavior it might have put a stop to it.

32:20And that's a big problem here because Mike it made over a dozen nine one one calls begging for help but police frequently I mean they're operating by the law here I'm not I'm not trying to fault the police here. But police frequently treated the stolen property and the complaints and that as a civil matter because they were married it's it's almost like if they weren't married if they were strangers and he was doing this to her there's more they could have done but because she said I do it was almost a free ticket to you know this insanity and to abuse essentially I mean how often do is this a factor in these cases where because they're married there's a lot of things that are going to happen. So if you're married there's less the law can do about it. I think traditionally it's it's been a factor and it probably varies from place to place from police department to police department from from city to county how tuned in are they to this stuff and certainly they need more training but even if you train police officers well I think most of them are well meaning when they go out on these cases but they're limited by what the law says they can do.

33:30So we need a mental health person to come out and spend time with the person who's making the reports of the stocking we've got to take stocking behavior seriously that kind of monitoring because it can lead to a lethal outcome and the most dangerous time in a coercive controlling relationship like this which we can just say an abusive relationship is when the victim is trying to leave and that's when it escalates and that's when it can get crazy and we need to do a better job. And we need to do a better job of protecting victims. Yeah, they definitely weren't doing that when she put in for the protective order and there was a lay on that I believe. And so Tony what's the case kind of slipping my mind because we've been so focused on this one you we covered it the other day where the death of Tupac. Yeah, yeah, so so that charge was he didn't pull the trigger but since he's in the car he's able to be charged with murder. Do you actually what was the statute he was actually be charged under that because I wonder if if there's any like parallel you could do the receives part of it but not part of it.

34:34Oh, that's part of a conspiracy charge. I mean he I mean this wouldn't be technically conspiracy because the yeah, I mean it's totally different. I know because I know I know it is but I'm so with you because there should be some sort of a culpability for this this mental torture this again which is essentially what the federal I mean the federal charges is that they can be reaching as far as they can reach because for whatever reason it doesn't appear that any local authorities have exercised their reach of what they can do to him. So the fact that then stalking and talking yeah, I mean essentially it's a stalking charge it just to kind of it can be bigger. Yeah, I mean that's that's where it's at right now not to say it couldn't get bigger. But a lot of times charges start somewhere and then kind of escalate from there in terms of investigation. I'm sure they're yeah, I'm sure they're looking at all I'd be very curious. We're talking earlier about the digital footprint. What exactly is he Google? Yeah, you know like what what is that'll tell so much like what is his end goal? Is it like drive someone to end themselves or what are they what is he searching for and then following that that playbook?

35:38So it'll be interesting on that one too is not just on the digital pattern but also the purchase pattern. So he bought the tracking devices put on her car. Yeah, what's the likelihood that's the only car he's ever tracked? You know slim the nil right. So I think they're going to really discover a lot about the pattern in his life. And so you have one stalking charge you might wind up getting more. I think you'd find probably a lot of people that's my that's my it's my control control control does does one of the big. I guess one ups that the JP knew that he had on everybody and a lot of people exercises whether they're a pastor or not is is the Jesus card. The fact that he was a pastor John Paul is his name JP. You know I see it in business a lot especially here in the south where I live you'll see crucifixes like worked into like signs like Timmy's plumbing and it's a crucifix for the tea or some shit like that. Those are usually the businesses I stay away from because I feel like when you're you're you're overtly using the cross as part of your marketing scheme.

36:45It seems to kind of go against most of what I think you know Jesus probably taught it wasn't like use my use what I died on as part of your marketing scheme to get more money. Like this doesn't seem like it's part of the Bible Tony has a negative confirmation bias. I do have a negative confirmation bias because every person in every business I've ever worked with that does that has been slimy as shit and has as like really been some of the worst human beings I've ever worked with and I'm sure there's probably lovely ones out there but that's my negative confirmation bias but feels like people like that really use that to an extreme and they get a pass. They get a pass from so many people who are just like well he's a pastor. Yeah across it's just like don't question that because they're afraid what that might reflect on them if they if they question the pastor I'm thinking J.P. use that to his advantage a lot here. Oh a lot. Oh a lot. It's so manipulative and the the issue about is is church a safe place. Are you safe. You know on so many levels with somebody who's broadcasting their Christianity and I think there are so I know we have a lot of viewers who are Christians they I get emails from folks and I think there are healthy ways to be a Christian and it can be a wonderful source of comfort for people.

38:07I don't want to knock it. People it it works very well for them but there are toxic ways and a toxic person can take and pervert something and to something that's scary and abusive. You know one of the the things I'm always thinking about when I talk with my clients and and they're very religious is their faith helping them or is their faith diminishing them in building shame within them. Is it building blind obedience is it causing problems is it causing anxiety and depression and then they're in this bind because they they start not being able to feel their feelings because that means they're disobeying God if they they acknowledge that you know maybe the pastor has done some bad things but I can't criticize the pastor I can't criticize the plumber with the bumper stickers all over his car.

39:08But there's a huge manipulative factor in that. If you're afraid to do something because of fear that's what you should get away from. Yes. It's pretty simple. It's recognizing the signs and and and having a fear of speaking about it. It's like being on an airplane and seeing someone with a knife and they're acting a little but I don't want to I don't want to disturb anybody. I want to disturb the stewardess or the captain or say hey this is over here. This is going to be a fine flight. It'll be good. I'm not going to say anything because everybody's on the plane. We're all trying to get where we're going right the guy with the knife over here is you know it's it's it's like saying I'm not going to I don't like American Airlines. Why because of 9-11 well the 9-11 hijackers were not employees of American Airlines they hijacked the airplanes and and that's the thing it's it's being able to recognize the people who are trying to hijack something that is good that has a purpose that does good things. And using it for their own twisted reasons we need to be able to identify that sort of shit and not just go along with it because we want to you know enjoy the flight well sometimes some people don't and they need to be called out for it.

40:19Your thoughts in the comments section on substack in YouTube as we continue to break down death of a pastor's wife on Netflix right now the story of John Paul Miller and Micah Miller. Want more on this case and others then press subscribe now and don't miss a moment of true crime coverage from Tony Brusky and the Hidden Killers podcast.