Is Artificial Intelligence a threat to humanity?

0:00Now, you can watch Ali Velchee five nights a week in prime time on MS now, as he takes command of the 11th hour. The breaking news in the last hour, the 11th hour with Ali Velchee weeknights at 11 PM Easter not MS now. The fact is, and some... And I have to say this about Ken is so insulting, and I hope he doesn't get insulted. They said, sure, you can't say that. They said, I have to. I said it once before, and he went through the roof. I got to say it again. So they just said how wonderful he is and how we have to... But I said it a little differently because the fact is that some may not like the way he dresses. I don't. Although tonight he looked very spiffy in his blue suit. I must say I am rude. But they may not like the way he talks.

1:00I can see that. May not like the way he looks. But here's the news. In the history of Texas, he is the single greatest attorney general you've ever had. The first part, I checked it. The last one is like wrong. What? I got impeached, right? Oh yeah. That was... I got impeached by Republicans. By Republicans. Yes. It's former staffers are doing ads for James Tallarico. That kind of tells you. George is saying he was the worst attorney general in any type of saying. That was what was the press. That was from trying to mentor us. And people say that. Ken Paxton. And he doesn't dread it. Well, and I mean the president, obviously called him a slob. Said he didn't like how he talks and speaks up. Or looks. He didn't like how he had a spoke. During the conversation we have MSNOW contributor. Mike Barnacle. Go. Yeah? Who? Yes. Just about two weeks ago, uh-huh. Efficient wedding. Yeah, what a guy.

2:01Yes, he did. For him. First stage manager, Max. Max! Max! Max, congratulations! And there is the beautiful bride. Wow. Now, was Mike, did he, was he okay in this? Look at Max, so beautiful. So beautiful. Yeah. What a happy day. And then Mike was the officiator of the wedding. How did he do, Meg? He was fantastic. He was so funny and warm and was great. Mike's actually a beautiful one. Mike's great at that. He's actually makes me cry. And he wants like, I want, I want pictures of Mike. I want pictures of Mike. Mike's there at the wedding. Oh, we have Seth Rider at the Atlantic, a man that no one would ever ask to officiate their wedding. Mark Liebivet. Wow. Uh-huh. Just, uh-uh. I never asked. I never asked. I never asked. Do you think that's it? I think that's really cool. I think they're intimidated because of your laughter, your warmth, your wit. Yeah. There's not a groom that could stand next to you without distracting the bride.

3:03It could be. And so he's like, he's ham. Oh, really? That's like, why don't you ask, we'd bring Robert Redford in 74 here. No, I'm not going to do that. Mike, that's what they say. We also have Professor at History at Tulane University. The great. The great, uh, historian Walter Isaacson. Walter, we were talking about AI. Uh, you have a lot to say about that. And you spent a lot of time with Elon Musk, a guy who has been warning since 2014, at least, that AI could end humanity. What are your thoughts on the conversation? Uh, you, you heard what Jim Fandai was saying. I know there's some things you agree with, some other things that you may not talk, talk, about this issue that really more American should have. In 2014, when open AI was founded by Sam Altman, Elon Musk and others, it was because of a great fear that AI could become misaligned with human values. You know, as a kid, Musk used to read all the asimov science fiction books and the robots

4:05turned against them. So how are we going to prevent that? And it was supposed to be a nonprofit and open. Obviously, there was a huge split there when Sam Altman decided to make it no longer an open source and no longer open weights and no longer a nonprofit must then started his own company, X AI. And it was supposed to be a line with safety. But if you talk to people now, you got to race to the bottom because it's hard to be totally aligned and put guardrails on yourself when the other companies keep doing whatever they want. So there's a competition among the companies that allows a race to the bottom of President Salimah and a competition on the US versus China. I really agreed totally with Jim Bandai said in the first segment, the last segment, but I don't think it's all that easy. If you, he says, we'll bring the greatest minds together and let's get some regulations. Well, I'm not sure even the greatest minds know what's the best way to regulate this other

5:07than to make it go much slower. And that's going to be difficult to do in a race. You also have the problem of asking people who are making billions and billions of dollars on who want to raise the next trillion dollars for their company to slow down. Because you know, I'm facing for the trillion dollars. Yeah. And people say, Musk says, if we have this, we'll have universal income. There'll be money. We'll be meaningless. We'll have such a great economy that nobody will have to work and we'll just give out money or something. And this is sort of a fancy. The reason that's a problem is you're going to have to tax these companies and they want to keep the money. You're not going to have it be so that these companies will create these things and then just distribute the profits fairly. No, I know. They're the most hostile. Right. Many form of taxation. And you have the backlash against data centers. People are talking about it. I think you talked about it in the last segment, or in cash, has a really good piece in the New York Times, the day about that.

6:08But data centers are just sort of a proxy for people being inside of AI. Okay, so help us out here. If we can't trust the people that are running the companies because they are self-involved and want to keep making hundreds of billions of dollars, we certainly can't trust bureaucrats in Washington, DC, who don't even begin to understand the concept of this. This reminds me an awful lot of 2008 where we had an economic crisis because nobody on Capitol Hill could understand credit default swaps and all the other instruments, financial instruments that banks and Wall Street were putting together to hide the crisis that was about to melt the economy down. So how do we do it, Walter? There has to be what's right now, if the President of the United States called you up to Walter, we need to put together a commission and we need to figure out a way to stay competitive with China, but also to keep offense around the worst sellings.

7:11As I said, it's kind of hard to know what to do. I would say you put a pause on it right now that puts you to disadvantage with China. But one of the charms of your show in most Americans, they believe every problem has a solution and this one doesn't have an easy solution right now. We have what's called the Prometheus myth when somehow we snatch a technology from the gods like fire and we come down and then we get punished for it. It happened when we created nuclear power. You mentioned that earlier, nuclear weapons. We were able to guard that pretty well because you can't build nuclear bombs that easily in a basement. Likewise, gene editing is another fire of the gods things we snatched. You could work with China and say you can't do it because that's something easy to monitor. These AI systems are not easy to monitor. All right, so we need a solution. And I know you say we have the show, we talk and people like solutions, I think everything has a solution. Well, maybe everything doesn't have a great solution, but you wrote a book called The

8:14Wise Men at one point. Let's just pretend we hadn't settled at the end of the world. That's just pretend we had wise men in Washington DC right now that we had people like George Marshall that we had people like Everell Haram and that we had people like George Kenan that we had wise men or it's big new Przenski in Reckister. Let's pretend we had wise men in Washington. What would they do looking back at history? What would a commission, what would an approach to this possible humanity ending technology? What would the best approach be? It's a great question because we have the evidence of what happened in 46 after we dropped the atom bomb. We decide that we have to make this an international situation, find ways to control both nuclear power and nuclear weapons. We set up a whole lot of multilettered agencies that would do power that would do bombs. We set up verification and then we made it an international process that somewhat surprisingly

9:19has lasted for maybe 80 years when we haven't censored Hiroshima and Nagasaki used a bomb in wartime. Now can we do that? Can we pull it all together in this time where Congress makes everything partisan? Will we've lost the trust of our allies? We're in trouble with Canada. You know we used to do no-rad defense systems with Canada. It was so easy. So it would not perfectly position, but I think this should be- and something will happen. In the next 12 months, something's going to really escape like the hugging face thing sort of did. You cloted all those things that happened when they were conspiring to get escaping. Once that happens, it may be the wake-up call we need. What would be the incentive at this port, Walter Ford, Sam Altman, and people who created this technology and are now putting up these red flags about it, what is the incentive

10:20for them to slow this down? They're saying the right things in public hearings, but why would they want to slow this down? It have to be they'd all hold hands and do it. You have six or seven frontier models and then you have the Chinese models and nobody's going to want to be the one saying, well put our hand behind the back. We'll tie our hands, but everybody else can go ahead. So how do you gather them all together? And that's what I think a group of wise leaders would do. You say, let me take all seven of you put you in a room and then we're going to go meet and try and do it, but we're going to have to have these restrictions. So Walter, you're talking about the peril in the promise and we've seen what happened in history and you mentioned World War II and the A-bomb dropping Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The peril in the promise and the potential of coming out of the end of that of any construct that poses a threat to the country. It's okay if you have leaders capable of doing it, but in this particular moment in time

11:21in Washington, DC, who are you going to ask to help? Yeah, people don't understand it in the least. You have people who are in their 80s getting reelected and have no clue about this. You have everything being made partisan. One of the small, hopeful things is it's not all the Democrats are against AI and all the Republicans are for it. You're now seeing even in Texas or Ohio, many other places, as I said, the orange cast. I say, you've got a lot of Republicans against it. I think one thing should be done is focus as you say on the promise. I just talked to New Bar of Fame who runs Madonna. They've been able to use AI to make any folded protein you want so that you can now start curing melanoma. You can do prostate cancer. All of these things. Somehow another, the AI company is not only doing dangerous things, but they're doing trivial things like chat pots and stuff. They should be focusing on climate. They should be focusing on curing cancer.

12:23I think some of the backlash against what they're doing within. What Walter is there? Any precedent in the last, say, 10 years even for something like this coming together with the kind of central authority that can actually make some immediate difference because it does seem like a fairly urgent situation. Yeah. The one comparable thing in the past 10 years, which is what you've asked me, is when we were able to make gene edits that were inheritable, in other words, you could use CRISPR and not only fix sickle cell, but you could design your children. So you can make every generation of your family, in other words, inheritable gene edits. Jennifer Dowden, who won the Nobel Prize, for helping discover that technology and many others, along with the Chinese, put together an international system to say you can do what you want using gene editing technology, but not things that enter, which is called the human germline. That would be part of it. And that's been successful so far. I will say also, government wise, the one thing Donald Trump did that should be at the

13:27front of any of his predecessors. Library, library, operation warp speed. Done in a year's time when people were saying, it's probably like six, seven, eight years if they ever got a vaccine, they did it in a year's time. Cady Kay, you have a question for Walter. Yeah, so Walter Daria Amade had a conference last week and there was a panel on security and people were asked about the budgets for security processes and they said, well, a moment we're spending about 5% on security. Should we be spending, we should be spending 100% there should be a total pause on this technology until we have more safety measures in place. Do you see a scenario in which the government says, I guess a bit like nuclear weapons, you know what this technology is so dangerous and so powerful that we're just going to nationalize it? And then you have the risk that then you're very dependent on a government being benign and I think the prospect for all of us looking at the next two years when this is moving so fast is you have a government with a White House with authoritarian tendencies potentially

14:29in control of this technology, what does that look like to you? Well, you just made the best argument against your suggestion. What better than I could, which is I'm not sure I want any particular government, including this one, to be in charge totally of all the technology. One of the advantages the U.S. has and even China is now doing is competitive private companies racing each other and that's allowing it to get ahead. Had the government decided to do this, you probably would be one tenth of the way along when it comes AI. Now, that may be a good thing. Maybe you say no, private companies shouldn't develop this, but if we're trying to develop this quickly, it's become like a lot of things, including the space race where private companies are able to get rockets into orbit like SpaceX and land them. Likewise, private companies are able to push the frontier models of AI. Something government can't do. I guess if you really need to be radical here, you just say government should shut it all

15:30down, but I doubt that's going to happen. Professor of history at Tulane University, Walter Isaacson, thank you very much. Thank you all. I'm coming down the show. Thank you very much. All right, still ahead. On Morning Joe, we're going to talk about how Democrats are countering the Republican Party's midterm convention, the Co-chair of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. Congressman Jason Crowe joins us straight ahead for that. And later this morning, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton will join us here at the table for a wide-ranging discussion on everything from the GOP convention, Iran, the midterms, and much more. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back. Ever since I was young, I've watched people working hard, chasing opportunity, making sacrifices, doing everything they can to build a better life. And now we're shining a light on what matters most.

16:32Our economy, our national identity, our democracy, our future. The stakes have never been higher. It's all on the line. On the line with O'BCA Menendez, weekdays at 12 p.m. Eastern, on MS now. Yeah. Welcome back. We're talking about who should be in the Hall of Fame and who shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. Mike, who should be in the Hall of Fame? White Evans. White Evans, Red Sox. We're talking about Del Merced. Del Merced as well. I mean, how can this be? The only word? The only word. That shouldn't matter, but Del Merced is a Hall of Famer. No, Merced is a Hall of Famer. Yeah. Automatic. You should be automatic. Without it. Without it. Without it. Without it. Fred Lynn. Yeah, Fred Lynn had stayed in Boston. He had been to the Hall of Fame. He will tell you that. Fred Willey. Fred Lynn would tell you that the biggest mistake he made was leaving the Red Sox as a free agent. And he could have used that wall. He could have been a Lifetime 340 hitter.

17:33Yeah. Spectacular outfielder. Yeah. He could have been in the Hall of Fame. Yeah. I would tell you people always ask, when, why did you become Red Sox fan this in 1975? Was Fred Lynn? I love the guy. Jim Rice. They were both rookies that year, then game six, put it over the top. The Gold Dust twins. They were incredible. You know, who else was incredible? Biff Boca Roba. Atlanta Brage. Put him in the wall. Just put him in the back. Let me tell you. Let me tell you. Let me tell you something. It's amazing how quick DJ has that. DJ has that hard drive. Biff Boca Roba. But that was during the Pat Rocket era. Pat Rocket played shortstop for the Braves when they were losing 100 games every year. And they had chicken wheat in the infill. I would watch the games. I think I can't even do infields right. It was just, it was just the worst team. Then Ted Turner took it over. Yeah. Love Ted Turner taking it over. That was so amazing. And it was funny as the whole country was watching on TBS. Yeah. They grew up in New Jersey watching those same games. You were watching. Very weird following a team that lost 100 games a year that we would listen to on WSB

18:37every night. And people are like, you're a who fan what? And then suddenly like a 1980, 1981. I knew every player as a kid. Everybody in the Braves. Yeah, no, it's fantastic. Hey, we were talking about the US Open. I think a little bit of the film now. Apparently the tennis guys listen to Willie guys. They have rearranged the times of the men's men's men's. That's wonderful Willie. Issue a correction. So we were talking about how these matches go too late. Right. They did some cases. But the US Open figured out a while ago, what is it was reminded by a trusted source. On the men's semi final night, the first match, this vera match will be tomorrow at 3 p.m. Okay, good. And then the prime time match is the American Tiafo Shelton at seven p.m. So even if that goes crazy late, it's midnight at the latest. So Lee gets a correction to the US. Willie, that's the news. You got to thank you, Willie. Congratulations. Willie speaks. They did any of that. That's the journalist. It was tough. He's the best. All right. Can we actually talk about something? One more question. One more question.

19:38No. I really do. I said, well, Kurt Shelly. God. Come on. He talked himself out of the Hall of Fame. Yeah, but it shouldn't be about talking. It should be about playing, right? Yes, he deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. He deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. One final one. Yeah. Barry Barnes. One before steroids. He was one of the great players in the history base. Well, and let me tell you something. And I never liked Barnes. He was a, he was a surly guy. He was tough. But let me tell you something. Even on steroids, there are a lot of guys on steroids that couldn't hit the ball. Barnes, Barnes was an extraordinary ball player on steroids or off steroids. How do you not put one of the greatest ball players of all time in the Hall and just put an asterisk? I mean, it's not the only thing you're coming since. Put them in the Hall and put them on the plaque. I mean, it's all of the contentious charges against them. They put it on the plaque. I don't know his plaque. And what were the red side? You got to put Roger Clemens in the Hall of Fame.

20:39Greatest picture of all time. Well, I don't know if I can say I'm telling you. If you look at the stats, he's the greatest picture of all time. And certainly one of the greatest pitchers. Certainly. It's a win to look at all time. Certainly in our lifetime. So how do you keep him out of the Hall of Fame? Thank you. Okay. Good. Okay. What a nice time. That doesn't mean we can't talk about the opening night of football last night, really. We can skip it. Yeah, there's a reason Limeer's not here talking about the opening night of football. The Patriots were up 13, nothing. Yeah. They looked like they were going to roll to a win. Sam Donald, the Seahawks quarterback, injured on the first series. They're going with the backup, Drew Locke. And then in the fourth quarter, Drake May, second in the MVP voting, led them to the Super Bowl last year. There's three interceptions in the fourth quarter, including an incredibly costly one. When you could have thrown it away, take a field goal, go to overtime, Patriots lose 13 to 10. You know, there really is something to the sophomore jinks. There really is. It happens time and time again where somebody to have a great rookie year, second year, always seems, seems to be tough. One thing never tough.

21:39One thing that always goes over smooth, Mike Barnacle officiating, I love that. And here's an example. I think we got a picture. Oh, my God. Bobby Barnacle, look at that. Thank you. In the words of what is done, let it be, baby. Beautiful. Let it be. Where did they hand that? Madison Square, go ahead. What a great thing. Yeah, right after Taylor, she may have decided, that's, we're somewhere for you, Matt. That's Meg. Crazy thing is for people at that event, then at the midterm convention last night in Dallas. So many Republicans are skipping. That's great. President Trump's midterm. That's great. So we're going to have a nice job. And I didn't stop one Democrat from making an appearance. Emma Snause with Miller reports. Oh, my God. I bet this wasn't on your bingo card. Big, we're going to move Republicans in Dallas. Yes, I'm Senator John Fetterman, Pennsylvania. Yes, I'm a Democrat. Pennsylvania's Democratic Senator John Fetterman popping up on the big screen at the first ever

22:44GOP midterm convention in Dallas, introducing the Keystone States Republican Senator Dave McCormick on video. Dave McCormick is the kind of senator that gets the job done and promised to partner with President Trump. And we'll work with President Trump to fight and defend the steel way of life right here in the steel valley. The stunning video intensifying Fetterman's fray with his own party. Democrats disappointed. John Fetterman is a non-factor in the midterms this fall. While other lawmakers unleash their opinions on social media, calling him lazy and Trump's favorite Democrat, many people think that a senator who was persuaded to make this very political video could potentially be persuaded to change his mind in the future. The surprise appearance renewing questions about whether he'll switch parties. Fetterman reiterating he's not going anywhere, releasing a new statement saying quote, I'm a lifelong Democrat who votes overwhelmingly with my party and should the Senate flip in

23:49November, I will still be the 51st vote. But in the past, Fetterman has said he would leave under one condition. If Democratic Party becomes official anti-Israel, then that's when I would force me out. While Fetterman's political future is unclear, the growing tension with his party is obvious. He's commended Trump's staunch support of Israel in its wars in Gaza and Lebanon. Back to the war in Iran and voted to confirm Homeland Security Secretary Mark Wayne Mullin, even saying this about the Democratic Party just last week. The Democratic Party is becoming having like an orgy of socialism. Now it seems Fetterman's popularity on the left is taking a hit. According to a new poll, his favorability among Democratic constituents plunged from 74% in 2024 to 22% this August. It's the opposite among Republicans with his favorability jumping from 25% to 73%.

24:50To be beloved by the opposite party and to be shunned by your own party is a very dangerous place to be in politics. And if Fetterman did switch parties, Democrats would have a much harder time taking control of the Senate. They would need to flip five seats to a majority instead of four. Back to you. All right. John Fetterman, meet Kristen Senema. I mean, it sounds so much like- Let's bring in MSNOW, Congressional reporter Michael Schnell. Michael, what's the reaction to this, especially among Democrats? Shocking. I mean, this seems like it's something out of an hour and a short film, right? The RNC convention, something that was already being so criticized because it's unprecedented because we haven't seen something like this. And then John Fetterman, who by the way is already under the microscope after that Wall Street Journal report that said that he- it basically doesn't even do his job and scoffs at basic constituent services, is now having a video introducing a Republican-athor Republican convention. Shocking. I mean, Britt had read some of those responses from Democrats.

25:50You had Brendan Boyle say, I called him Trump's favorite Democrat. This is the reason why Crystal Luzio saying he was too lazy to even do it in person. And nod to that Wall Street Journal report. I think there could be real implications for this. Well, first off, he insists he's going to be a Democrat. If Democrats take control in November, he insists he'll be the 51st vote in a majority. Obviously, he's broken from the party on a number of votes, so he may still be caucusing with them, but how he helps them will have to see. But he's up for re-election in 2028. And Crystal Luzio and Brendan Boyle, they smell blood in the water here, particularly after seeing those approval ratings plummeting. I think it's very likely we're going to see a primary challenger here. He even intends on running for re-election. And then we're talking about a really competitive race in a state like Pennsylvania in an election year, no less, which could be a marquee battle. Only 22% approval rating on Democrats, but his mark said, yet to look at the cross. You gotta look really good. You gotta look at it over there. You gotta look at it over there. No, no, no, no. It may be a very intense 22%, which is a great pace to start a campaign on. Great pass. You know what's interesting about John Fetterman is that if you look at the numbers last

26:53time I check, he vudged with Democratic Party 90, 91, 92, 93% of the time, said he'll continue voting for him if he's a 51st Senator. But I just, I think back to how much Democrats loathed, the activists loathed having a West Virginia Senator who is a swing vote. And I'm thinking if you had problems with him, you ain't seen nothing yet when it comes to John Fetterman. Democrats might find themselves in the same position where they're sitting there looking at John Fetterman, begging him for the deciding vote. Yeah, I mean 100%, this is what we saw with Joe Manchin, this is what we saw with Kiersten Sinema on all these those key votes, needing them on their side and they were very, they were very firm about where they stood on a number of matters. John Fetterman is going to be like that, but the difference is is that Kiersten Sinema and Joe Manchin knew they had power and they tried to wield it. They knew that they could ask for things in negotiations and try to get them. John Fetterman doesn't seem like he wants to be the power player in a similar fashion.

27:53So he can go into a high stakes negotiation with Democrats who need their vote and he doesn't seem like he's going to the table asking for things with Republicans, with Democrats. We saw him vote for a number of controversial cabinet nominees. We've seen him vote for other Republican proposals. So yes, he could have that power and he will be a key player, but how he wields it and how he uses it on Capitol Hill seems drastically different from the other swing votes that we've seen in previous Congresses. Let's bring into this conversation battleground co-chair for the D-Triple C Democratic Congressman Jason Crowe of Colorado. He is in Dallas this morning with a group of Democrats looking to counter the message we saw last night at that Republican midterm convention. Congressman, thanks for being with us. Let's start with the fact that Texas is a battleground state. You are in a place where James Talleriko is doing well according to polling at least in a dead heat up a little more according to some other polls. What are you hearing on the ground from Democrats, from Independents in that state, and what have you make of what you saw last night at the arena in Dallas? Well, I got here last night, Willie, and I walked into the hotel lobby and there was a young

28:56Republicans party going on. So my first reaction was to turn around and walk out. My second reaction was, hey, I got to help these guys. You know, like it's two or is you're too young to go like this, right? Like you have a whole life ahead of you. I can help you. But I actually ended up just coming to my room and ordering room cards and looking worth it. The whole good Samaritan thing. You're like, never mind. Well, I thought to myself, you know, I'm the battleground co-chair. I got 99 problems in helping this young Republican group, ain't one of them right now. So I'm trying to stay focused on the prize. But there's a whole fantasy world here, right? I mean, the whole thing is just beyond weird. You know, I've been an Army Ranger. I've been a Paratrooper. I've been to Iraq and Afghanistan. I've been a member of Congress for eight years. So to come into an environment where I feel like this is one of the weirdest places I've been is saying something. What's weird about it?

29:57What's weird about it? Yeah, it's the alternative reality, right? The idea that everything is great. America is hotter than ever before. The feeling that you can't afford anything that is actually not true. We're winning. There's so much winning. The war in Iran were winning that. It's pretty wild. And Donald Trump is doing what he always does, making it about him. And what struck me the most, it actually made me really mad, was last night when he was talking about how he needs to get something out of the war in Iran. So maybe he's going to rename the Straits. We have 50,000 service members over there right now. 18 have given their lives. Hundreds have been wounded. We're coming up on the 25th anniversary of 9-11 on Friday. And once again, Donald Trump, it's all about him. It begins and ends with Donald Trump. Congress on there was also something that occurred last night that I thought was beyond weird when I heard it earlier this morning.

30:57And it was the United States Senator Tim Scott in a rather hysterical address to the crowd there. And among his remarks, he said, Democrats hate America. And he said it quite loudly, expressing it with a lot of body movement. And I want to ask you, you once belonged to a uniquely A political outfit called the 75th Ranger Regiment. And you didn't know whether the men under your command were Democrats, Republicans, atheists, or you just did not know. All you were worried about, I assume, was their capability in combat. And how does it strike you that the cultural change in political language is such that the United States Senator can stand up and scream that Democrats hate America? Well, it shows you where this party where Donald Trump has brought you, where the Republican party has brought this country right now.

31:59And I don't relish saying that, actually. I wish there was a healthy, independent Republican party would make it easier to legislate or make it easier to govern or make it easier to do a lot of things. Our system is a two party system. So I want a healthy party to debate with, to have a back and forth and create better policy ideas. But when you have the center of gravity of that party is about hating the other side, saying we're evil labeling us with absurd labels, where do you go from there? Where do you go? So I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to use those terms because that's counterproductive. But it just shows you where they've come. And more specifically, it shows you where Donald Trump has brought them and where they have allowed themselves to go. Let's not let members of Congress off the hook here. They have allowed this to happen. Donald Trump set the conditions that they could have stopped it and they decided not to. Yeah, Congress will only ask you about a $6 gallon diesel.

33:01Let me ask you about rising gas prices. Let me talk, let's talk about interest rates going up. Let's talk about the high price of rent. The fact that many people can't even get a mortgage right now because mortgage rates are skyrocketing much more than the economic growth. The fact that Donald Trump has actually contributed far more to the federal debt than he has to the economy since he get back into office. People are suffering. You look at health care, health care costs are going up. I've been asking this question this week. I'm curious, among your constituents, among people you're talking to on the ground, what is stretching them economically the most? What is the bill that is hard? Is it gas? Is it groceries? Is it diesel? Brent, what's most difficult for Americans in 2026? For me, it's health care.

34:03I spend a lot of time with my constituents a lot of time with Coloradans and the destruction to our health care system by taking the ACA subsidies, cutting the health care system and taking that money and using it to give tax breaks to the top 1% and the largest companies in America on the back of working class Americans health care. I commonly hear folks say that $2 to $300 monthly premiums and out $13, $14, $1500, they've gone up threefold, fourfold. What makes it so devastating is this isn't just an inability to pay a bill. People are losing their care. They have sick children that they can't provide health care to. They can't buy their prescription drugs. When people go without health care, the suffering is uniquely acute and it's immediate and it's devastating to see. Democratic Congressman Jason Crowe of Colorado, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. We appreciate it. And Mark Liebovich, your thoughts on the candidates, especially leading up to the midterms,

35:07are going to be talking a lot about affordability. But what tangible promises can they make actual policy that can actually change the reality for Americans? Should they be speaking more specifically? Well, Donald Trump's book pretty specifically last night when he promised what, $5,000 dividends if Republicans win the House and Senate. That's not possible. I don't see that happening. I think it's too late. I think Republicans at this point have kind of squandered a lot of goodwill and a lot of time. And I think Americans, if you look at the polling and if you talk to enough of them, would say that, like, look, they're out of patience. And this is not what we voted for. And that's why all the trend lines are headed where they are for Republicans right now. Michael, what about you? I mean, I can tell you, Republican lawmakers feel that the White House at this point has sort of tossed up their hands and given up on the chances of taking the majority. He's focusing on these vanity projects. He's talking about renaming New Mexico to New America. He's not spending that mega-ink money, at least the large majority of it. And he's not helping them when it comes to this affordability theme.

36:09So Republicans are short of saying we kind of think he has come to the conclusion that this isn't happening, and he has given up, which not a good idea for him. At the same time, he sees himself on the ballot. He said he last night, pretend like I am running. I think it's for two reasons. One, because he knows he can turn out the vote, so he's trying to rev up the base. But also, he feels that his legacy is on the line here, which is why it doesn't make sense that he wouldn't be engaging more to help Republicans. His legacy of the next two years of Democrats take the majority. He knows subpoenas are going to be flying. They're going to be investigating every part of it in his administration, every member of his family. So there's a lot on the line for the midterms. He doesn't seem to care, and Republicans are sort of taking note of that and wondering why they don't have a good answer, because that's an unprecedented situation. All right, the Atlantic, smart. Leave of it, an MSNOW Congressional reporter Michael Schnell. Thank you both very much for coming on the show this morning. And coming up, Hillary Clinton will join the table in just a few moments. She has a new piece this morning for the Atlantic on what the aftermath of 9-11 taught her. We'll dig into that and much more.

37:11The first our next guest is looking to unseat Republican Senator Pete Ricketts in Nebraska, independent candidate Dan Osborne is standing by. How he plans to win his election this November, morning Joe, will be right back. Hi there, everyone. It's Nicole Wallace. I'm here to tell you about the MSNOW membership. You'll be able to connect directly with all your favorite hosts. You can stream live TV and find a community that cares as much as you do. Visit ms.nowslashmembership to join us. I'll never take a dollar of corporate pack money or an order from a party boss.

38:13You know, smoke filled bathrooms either. Okay, that's part of a new campaign ad for Dan Osborne. He's the independent candidate, challenging Nebraska's incumbent Republican Senator Pete Ricketts, the Nebraska Democratic Party, chose not to run a candidate in the Senate race, effectively coalescing its support behind Osborne. And Dan Osborne joins us now. That's good to have you. Thank you for being on. So how would you describe just how much you contrast from your opponent, Senator Ricketts? Oh, it's wild. It's the story writes itself. It's a shop floor mechanic versus the son of a billionaire. And you know, we got him scared. You know, they're not just afraid of me and me being a mechanic. They're afraid of all the mechanics, all the pipe fitters, all the nurses, all the teachers who are angry right now. Because they see politicians like Pete Ricketts have sold out the American worker to the corporations

39:14and their donors and their lobbyists. Why run as an independent? Well, I'm a lifelong independent. I've been an independent from the time I could register to vote when I was in the Navy. I've never really accepted that I got to accept a set of values and policies and principles and reject the other one. Because for me, you know, like when I was going through the straight of horror moves, there's no Republicans or Democrats, right? We're just all Americans at the end of the day. When you talk to voters, when you knock on doors, when you're at town hall meetings, and they're telling you about their lives, what are they talking to about how difficult the costs are? I mean, we've heard people complain about groceries, gas, diesel, going to hit $6, rent, healthcare. What are you hearing mainly out there on the campaign trail? Yeah, it's, you know, Nebraska's first and foremost in agriculture state. We're a third in corn, we're fifth in soybeans, we're first in beef.

40:17How better farmers get in the hit? They're getting hit hard. They're getting hit real hard, you know, starting with, first of all, we can't pass a farm bill. The farm bill is outdated. We're from 2018 subsidies, crop prices. And then you add in a blanket, tariff policy. I was talking to a row crop farmer. He farms 2000 acres. He was telling me for 2025, he was out. They closed the market that we bailed out Argentina with $20 billion. They take off their tariffs from China, China buys to them. Our guys just want a market to be able to sell too. Well, why are we bailing out Argentina? Why are we giving sweetheart dildes to China? Why are we leaving American farmers in the dust? If I knew that, I'd write a book. I don't know. But it doesn't seem to make any sense. No, it doesn't make any sense at all. And now his inputs with this war in Iran are up. He had to write a check for $50,000 more. So our guys get bailed out with $12 billion in the ass, and if that's supposed to help him. And he said, well, yeah, it's supposed to help for my inputs for 2026.

41:18But those are unaffordable now. So we're in a crisis. Our farmers are aging out. Farmers suicides three and a half times in national average. I was talking to a 911 operator who stays busy morning and night trying to deal with farmers because they can't pay their bills a lot of them. So it's being consolidated. Bankruptcies are up. And where's the help coming? Right? Well, President Trump said he'd give $5,000. Farmers don't want $5,000. They want a market to be able to sell. Yeah. That's part of the reason you've gained traction as an independentist because people are fed up with politicians. And it's almost like they see an R or D next to them and they say, you're a politician. You're one of them and they want to talk to somebody they can relate to maybe. Have you found that when you're talking to voters now, they don't care what part of your width as long as you'll help them? Yeah. It's really what a boy is down to is talking about our paychecks, right? Because that's how I've lived my whole life is paycheck to paycheck. And sometimes you're a medical emergency away from going into bankruptcy, right?

42:23And there's a lot of people that are there right now, myself included. So it is about dialing back a lot of the damage. The big, beautiful bill act is done to rural health care, to our farmers and tax credits for ethanol. I mean, the list goes on and on and giving people a fair shake. What do you say to people? You come up and get someone you're talking to someone and they said, they have two little kids. And one of them's sick and they can't afford to take them to a pediatrician because their healthcare costs are just skyrocketing. And they can't afford a healthcare plan though. What do you say? Yeah, I say I'm going to go fight for them, right? And the healthcare system has been vertically integrated. You know, they own every step of the way. That's certainly a big part of the problem. And you look at United Healthcare. You know, they from the time you get a snuffly nose, from the time you're driving through to get your prescription, they own every part of it. They negotiate with each other and then they post record profits every quarter.

43:26You know, politicians like Pete Ricketts, they love that, right? Because they're making money off that. They shouldn't profit off of us getting sick. So it's about going back to the way we handle the robberbearans and the 1900s, breaking up the industries and creating a true free market that favors competition. Because right now it's a controlled market. So many aspects of our lives from youth sports to healthcare have been consolidated. So you have said, we're proudly and independent and you have said that if you win, you won't necessarily caucus with either party, Democrats or Republicans. So what does that look like? How do you, if you're not on any committees, if you're not accumulating a seniority, how do you deliver for the people in Nebraska? Yeah. You only need to look to 2024 since we're, we're developing in hypotheticals. You know, if I would have beat DeFisher in 2024, the big beautiful bill act wouldn't have passed. I would have been the tiebreaker because JD Vance came down and broke the tie. So that's leverage. That's leverage for Nebraska. And you know, and that's, that's going to knock on the majority leaders door, minority

44:29leaders doors and because they're going to need to come to me to get my vote. And if they want my vote, you know, then, then, you know, we have to deliver, I'm going to deliver for Nebraska. All right, independent candidate for US Senate in Nebraska, Dan Osborne. Thank you very much for coming on the show. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Thank you. All right, up next former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton joins the table for a wide ranging conversation, including her reflections on 25 years since the 9-11 terrorist attacks. Morning, Joe will be right back. There's a lot of news to cover money. Time for the business. All eyes on the new Fed chair. The economic fallout from the war is a temporary power. The president is now a major crypto industry operator is this White House for sale politics. Is there an energy to respond to this aggressive gerrymandering?

45:30It has never been more important to be informed and engaged. Money-powered politics with Stephanie Roo, weekdays at 9 a.m. Eastern on MSNow and find more on the MSNow app.