INTERVIEW: The priest who quit for sex

0:00This is a Triple J podcast. He was a young Italian Catholic priest, famous for being a gym rat, and to be honest, looking like a model. His massive social media reach meant he built up both fans and detractors, some were worried that he was a real threat to the church's traditions. Then a few weeks ago, after years, he decided to quit the priesthood, saying it's too hard to abstain from sex. I'm Dave Marcazi, this is Hacks' Long Listen of the Week, a chat with former priest Alberto Ravagnani. Look, if you've not seen him, I need to stress. Alberto's not the typical image of a priest. You're more likely to see him giving workout tips on YouTube or hanging out with his friends than sitting behind dusty books. He's young, he's active, and he says sticking to celibacy is too hard. I was preaching about love, sex, and so on,

1:04but I could not apply all this stuff to myself. Now, Alberto's way of doing things has been a bit unorthodox, but that's meant he's fostered a big support by some young people, though not everyone was impressed. I didn't expect the anger of the Catholic church, of some part of the Catholic church. Now he's turned in his clerical collar, he's written a book, and Alberto's got a message for the church. Change or face the consequences. If you don't accept a law or freedom, if you don't respect women, if you're not inclusive, it's a problem. There's no way you've heard a chat like this before. He's open, he's honest, he's incredibly eloquent, considering this is his second language, and he wants to share his experience to help others. Here is my interview with Alberto Ravagnani. Alberto Ravagnani, welcome to HAC. Here I am. Hi, everybody.

2:04How are you feeling? A lot of emotions. It's been a big few weeks for you. I've changed my life completely. Yes, I'm trying to understand how to live a new life. I'm excited about it. Alberto, I want to ask you this question really clearly. Did you leave the church so you could have sex? I left the ministry. I'm still a Catholic. I am no more a priest. So, theoretically, I can have sex. The church would say after the marriage. After the marriage, okay. The church would say that. Of course. I want to ask you, Alberto, a bit about your background. You're 32 years old now. When did you enter the church? When did you decide this was the kind of life you wanted to lead? I converted them to God when I was 17. That's a very big decision to make at 17 years old. No, no, I took two years. I started thinking about it when I was 17. But I took two years, 18, 19, to decide.

3:06And I entered the seminary after the high school. There will be so many people who are so interested in what that experience was like. Learning how to be a priest, to be under such rigid rules as a person who maybe wants a bit of freedom and usually has freedom. I actually wanted to become a priest. I didn't actually want to be a celibate man. But accepting celibacy was the condition. And during the seminary, the seminary lasted six years. In the end of these six years, I was really convinced that it was good for me. As a celibate man and as a priest, I was free to stay with everybody, to give my life, my time, my house, my everything, to other people, especially young people. But at a certain point, I realized that the condition I was living in prevented me to feel my humanity fully. And in the end, I realized that I couldn't actually stay in that rules. And to be clear, Alberto, because people,

4:08there will be people listening now who are not Catholic, who are not Christian even. What are you told about celibacy as somebody training to become a priest? Why are you told that you must remain celibate? Tradition told us that Jesus was celibate. So priests are meant to be like Jesus. Second reason is because the most important relationship in our life is the relationship with God. The other reason is a practical reason, because if you're a celibate, you are more free to love everybody without the making preference, isn't it? And does being celibate involve you with a partner? What are the rules there? In general, I mean, a celibate man should be a trust man. He should not have any sexual relationship with anybody. I mean, not even masturbation. So no masturbation is also included in that vow of celibacy. Well, actually, the church says that nobody should do that,

5:09especially priests. I mean, for me, it has always been hard to live a trust life, because I mean, our sexuality is a very difficult thing. I mean, because it's connected with our identity, with our desires, with the need we have to express ourselves to fill up the... So I struggled with the masturbation. I remember that I was feeling very guilty about it. And so I went to confession. And the first time I confessed it, the priest didn't even care about this thing. I asked myself, why? Is it a problem? It should be a problem. If I want to be a priest, I want to be celibate, and I have to struggle with masturbation, even after entering the sanitary, it is a problem, but it is a problem that everybody has, and maybe all the priests have this problem. Somewhere, in my mind, I knew that they also had to struggle. I had to struggle with it in a very hypocritical way. I was preaching about love and how to live a sexual life.

6:13I was surrounded by young people. They really trusted me, talked to me about their life, their problems, and so on. And I had to give them advices about love, relationships, sex, and so on. And it was very good at talking. But I could not apply all this stuff to myself. So you were feeling that you couldn't be your honest self because you were trapped in a way. How big of a factor was the celibacy part to your decision to leaving? I know that there were a few different reasons for you leaving, but how big was the celibacy? It's been a very important reason, just because the most interior one, the reason that touches my body, my flesh, my identity, is the one I felt more than other reasons. When did you start getting a big following online Alberto, because you started using social media, and people wanted to follow you, especially young people, when did that happen? 2020.

7:14At the first day of the lockdown, I made my first video on Instagram, because I wanted to reach the young people of the parish who could not come into the parish. One leader after another, I became popular. OK. And you built a massive following, and you were very popular because you were talking to young people, like young people, you were using social media the same way. You were in the gym, showing your gym technique and giving advice to others. Did the church have a problem with your style of communication? Yes. Some part of the church had problems with my communication, because it was a communication that breaks the rules. In the beginning, other priests were excited, they said, OK, you go, we are with you, OK, keep on going. But other priests were really worried, because it was just something new. Well, I mean, now it's normal. But the thing I've always done is go beyond the limits. In different ways, I started making videos on YouTube,

8:15then I started opening the parish to people from all over Italy. I founded an online community for young Catholic people. I became friends with influencers and famous people. I went to podcasts and so on. And then I started to go to the gym and show even my body, social media, which it's quite weird for a priest. I started to see things which are quite critical about what the church does. So it's pinning the neck for the church, having a priest that keeps on breaking the rules. What were some of the other things, Alberto, that you were maybe disagreeing with? Clerical clothing? Maybe that is something else that you don't like? Yes, the way we dress is the way we want it that the people see us. If we wear a uniform, somehow it divides us from other people. We say with our clothes that we are different from you.

9:16We are from another level. Or I mean, we are here to give you a service. I mean, it's useful. But my point of view is what kind of religion are we expressing if we keep on dividing ourselves from other people? I mean, Jesus didn't do that, actually. The way we behave should be the mark that allows people to recognize that we are Christians and not only are clothed. I was a priest. It was a very traditional priest. I mean, not very traditional. I mean, I was a priest. I don't think you were too traditional. I was a priest, but I was proud to be a priest. So I was always showing off that I was a priest. But at a certain point, when I moved to Milan, I realized that the people, when they saw me, they started thinking things, that priests may be a pedophile, or they steal money, they are full of contradictions, that we judge, cannot say what you do in your private life to a priest, because it would definitely condemn you.

10:18I didn't want that. One day, when I was in Milan, I was celebrating the master and a boy entered the church and he started praying. But he didn't want to talk to me. He wanted to talk with everybody. He became friends with everybody, but not with me. He was homosexual. One day, I started to break the ice with him, and I asked him, can you help me? I want to go shopping, I want to buy clothes. And there he started talking to me. And at a certain point, he told me the truth is that I didn't want to talk to you, because with your black uniform, you, I don't know what to say in English, I was scared by you. And I started thinking that maybe most of the young people, I think, in the same way as that guy. And so, from that moment on, I decided to change. So you thought that your clothes maybe were making people feel safe, but in reality, you realized that maybe a lot of young people were feeling scared to see you in that uniform.

11:21Alberto, a lot of younger people in Western countries, particularly, have lost faith in the Catholic church and other parts of Christianity, due to a lot of reasons. But one of the big ones might be the treatments of different groups or the many abuse scandals, controversies in recent decades. I'm wondering, do you think that some of the strict rules that we've been talking about are linked with that abuse of power that we've seen? Yes, somehow, the celibacy may be a trigger, but to be honest, we have to say that there are problems like this, some kind of abuse, committed by people who are not celibate. Other churches, which don't have a requirement to be celibate, also have abuse problems. But also, if among families, parents or uncles, coaches in, I mean, football teams, it happens everywhere. But in the Catholic church, there's a higher percentage,

12:22I mean, higher percentage of abuses committed by priests. This problem cannot be just resolved, it's condemning, because I mean, these are symptoms of a disease, which is connected with the power. I wonder if you've ever thought Alberto about being part of another church? Has that ever been a thought in your mind? Maybe it's not the Catholic church that I want to be part of. Maybe it is one where I don't have to be celibate and I can still believe in all of the Christian values, but in a different way that is a bit more open. Yes, no, I've never thought about it. Really, really, really, I still want to be Catholic and I believe in this church, which is like my family, I want to have the church. And I think the word needs the church, I mean, not only the church, everybody needs a community that can help you to find the meaning of your life. The choice I made, I made this choice not to escape, but I tried to live on my own, on my life.

13:24They change, I want to see for the church. I think that the things have to change, definitely. I try to change it by changing myself. And was it your choice, Alberto? Was it you that decided I'm going to leave the church or was it parts of the church that you felt pushing you out? No, I decided. Well, I decided to do this because at a certain point, I realized that there was no place for me and constraint, constraint. Constrained, I felt constrained in my role. The point was not to rebel to the system, to make the revolution against somebody. I had to open new path for a new path for the church. I'm wondering if it's common for priests to leave. Like, do you know any other young people who have left the priesthood Alberto? Yes, but it happens. Okay, so it's not uncommon. People decide maybe this isn't for me and I'll try something else.

14:25Did you expect the huge reaction that you would get when you decided to leave? Not really. I didn't expect the anger of the Catholic church of some part of the Catholic church. What is the anger? Because I don't think a lot of people in Australia will have seen some of the reaction, but what has some parts of the church been saying? Well, they insulted me. They tried to delegitimate me. I don't know, is it an English word? Yeah, delegitimized. I didn't study theology properly. My spiritual life was not as good as it had to be. They told me that I just wanted to make money with my choice. It was just a marketing choice. The social media spoiled my life and the devil stole my vocation. But all this stuff, it was just a way to delegitimize myself without facing the fact that I was a young priest, a successful priest,

15:27a serious priest, I studied theology and I freely decided to leave the ministry. Before leaving the ministry, I wrote a book about my choice. And in this book, I told about my life when I was a child, my adolescence, my growth as a human being, main part of the book is called doubts. All the doubts are connected with the church, doctrine, power, the celibacy and the cloth, the liturgy and the way we pray and all this stuff. I left the ministry and I left the book to the church, I mean, in order to help church to be more aware of my ministry and my vocation. Alberto, other people are saying part of your social media. This presence was to gain popularity, to sell your book, that's another criticism, that it shows popularity over spiritual responsibility. How does that make you feel?

16:28It makes me feel sad because it's not true, actually. I was popular. I didn't need to be more popular. But my popularity, such a media, it has never been my final goal for me. It has always been an instrument to which people. It's a way that, somehow I feel it as a way to banalize, banale, I'm not saying English. To humiliate. Yes, to humiliate me in my life. I mean, it must be very upsetting to feel that from a group, a family as you described the church that you dedicated so much of your life to, has that experience of having some parts of the church turn against you, opened your eyes to maybe how other people have felt in the past. Definitely, yes. Nobody is bad. There are other people just because they belong to a certain religion. What happened to me allowed me to see with different eyes, the life of the church,

17:31and other people. And it allowed me, I felt, me a tranquillizzato. Me sono sentito più tranquillo. I felt more, I mean, relaxed. What do you think the future of the church is? Do you think the church will modernize? Do you think that there will be opportunities, more opportunities for women in leadership roles in the church, or there might be more acceptance of other parts of the community? Are you up? Are you up so? I don't know when it's gonna happen. If you don't accept a law of freedom, if you don't respect women, if you're not inclusive to the minorities, it is a problem. Even if we love the church, don't take care of these rights. I mean, I think that nobody would accept to be part of the church. Even if they believe in God. Alberto, what are you going to do now? Let's just a huge question. You've got your whole life ahead of you. What are the plans?

18:31I don't know. No, I'm thinking about it. But I want to keep on living my mission. People, young people, are not happy. They seem to be happy because they have to post happy faces on social media. Actually, they're not always so happy. And I want to help people to be happy. I want to use social media. I guess you have to make money as well now. That's the other thing. Yes. Which is a big surprise after how long were you apprised? How long were you in the ministry? Seven years. Seven years. I think it's going to be quite difficult because I've never done it. But I mean, everybody does it. So I learn how to do it. No, I'm not scared. OK, not scared. Alberto, I don't want to embarrass you, but I have a couple of questions. What do you think of people calling you the hot-praced? It's funny. It's really funny because to be honest,

19:32I'm not self-confident at all. I've never had any kind of relationship with anybody. And I've always had the problems with my body and with my aesthetics. So it's surprising me a lot what people are saying about me. People are saying it. It's the headline of some news articles, Alberto. That's interesting. It's interesting. The other question I have is people will want to know, do you have a partner? Have you met someone or did you leave because you had a partner? No. But maybe I want to do this. I think it's going to be one of the most important issues for me from this moment on. And obviously, you're not constrained to see any more Alberto. That's all over now. You've got the whole world in front of you. Do you regret the decision at all? Are you happy? Are you happy right now? I'm really happy. Yes, I'm really, really happy. I was a happy priest. Yes, I'm excited to know what's going to happen to me, but I'm faithful. Well, we're all excited to see what happens to you

20:34as well. Thank you so much for opening up and being so generous with all of your thoughts. It was fascinating chatting with you. Alberto Ravagnani, appreciate you coming on hack. Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure. I should say Alberto has a book out. It's called La Shelta. It's doing really well in Italy at the moment. One of the best sellers. Unfortunately, though, it's only in Italian right now. So you're going to have to learn the language. Big commitment to read the book. Although Alberto told me that he's hoping it will be published in English in the future. Look, if you want to learn more about him, go follow him on socials on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. You'll be able to find him, don't worry. And while you're there, give us a follow too. At Triple J hack and subscribe to this podcast because we've got interviews like this one dropping every single week. I'll catch you next time.