Icon #38 - Oprah Winfrey: What Is An Oprah?

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4:07Hello, the internet and welcome to this spin-off episode of Dead Ali Thank- guys! Which we call the icon of graph instead of looking at the zeitgeist through current events on Monday mornings. We're looking at the zeitgeist through powerful pop culture deities that are our icons. I'm Jack O'Brien, I'm one of the founders of crack. This week we are talking about someone who was often called the most powerful person alive during the first half of my life, who came in the door through the world of podry talk TV and became an Oscar-nominated actor. The most powerful influencer of all time before anyone was even using the phrase influencer. She's responsible for some of the dumbest satanic panic hoaxes. And also for more pages read by Americans, more pages of literature. I would guess more pages of literature read caused by her

5:08than most American publics. Like maybe all American public schools. She's basically a monoculture TV focused ancestor of everything in the modern world from Joe Rogan to Goop to QAnon. She became the world's only black billionaire, the richest black person of the 20th century. And she did that by creating the modern world. And then she just sort of dipped. She's just kind of like not around as much anymore. I'm curious to hear what you guys think her legacy is today. We are of course talking about Oprah. You get a pod. You get a pod. Hell yeah. I'm thrilled to be joined as always by my co-host. His early career was built on advice. He got from Roger Ebert during a period when they were fucking. It's Miles Gray. Hey, welcome me. Thank you so much. I'm still trying to figure out how I'm going to get the insurance

6:09payment for that free Pontiac G6. I got from Oprah. Those many years ago when I was in the audience didn't realize I thought it was a free car. I didn't realize there were payments that had to be made. I'm still getting it together. Did you remember that as being keys left under the under the seat? I believe so. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was not. There were boxes handed out to everybody. And then like as it was happening, they were like, and we're handing out boxes like gift wrap boxes. And in one of them, there is what we'll get to it. But what a wouldn't iconic moment. She certainly had a nose for iconic moments. Oh, yeah, yeah. That kind of like really, I feel in a weird way when Oprah was hooking people up in her audience with shit, it inspired to like a whole other level of gift giving. Now people like, shit. Yeah, there's a new book. I mean, ceiling. I don't, I don't want to say this because I don't want to give her too much praise. But you could say she's the ancestor of Mr. Beast in some ways. I don't want to get. Look, yep.

7:09Like that. That's for history to decide. It's cool. She filmed with me for three minutes and got my life sob story out and exploited that for ratings. But that's okay. I did get a car. I cannot afford for free. Super proves are Victor said they actually were sitting on the cars. They looked down there. And if you look down, you'll look down. That's a new Pontiac G6. Miles, we are thrilled to be joined in our third seat by an extremely talented podcast host. Digital activist. You can hear on her brilliant podcast. There are no girls on the internet. The author of the book Love It First prompt. She wants staged a televised high school reunion just to flex on her poor classmates. It's Bridget Todd. Bridget. You're joking, but that is something I would absolutely do. It was so wild when she did that. She had her high school reunion on TV. Got like had her student body president up there and she's like, wow, I would have thought

8:11you'd be like the CEO of a fortune 500 company. A teacher really. Oh, man. So was it was high school important to you guys like gets everybody to be like, yeah, I was a really forbid of experience. And she's like, huh. I was thought of it as just a face. Interesting. All right. Moving on. Looking rules. I will say up front and Bridget, thank you so much for joining us for your seventh opera. I did not realize that there was a six part bastards series on opera when we decided to do this together. I thought it was six. I actually didn't know that they did opera. Yeah. So I did listen to it. It's very interesting. Definitely a good companion piece to this podcast, but we'll try not to cover too, too much of the same ground. But yeah, you were on that as well. You're kind of becoming an official opera expert. I am. I consider myself to be an opera expert.

9:11That six part behind the bastard series was one of the highest points of my career today. It was like it was it's probably the thing I've done that I see in the wild reference the most. Like whenever somebody talks about Oprah, people like on Reddit people will say, oh yeah, like there's a bastard six part thing. And it takes every fiber of my being not to be like, thank you so much for enjoying it. But just know if you're listening and you've written that on Reddit, I probably have seen it. And I really not like worked hard to not blow up my Reddit account by saying, thank you for listening. We see you. We hear you. We appreciate you. Yeah. I, I, I, Google, I was trying to go I wanted to ask the question, is she the most important person in the history of TV as a medium and like what, what is her legacy going to be going forward? Because I do feel like it's fairly dimin, like I don't know what young people just entering the pop culture landscape in the last five years. No of Oprah, you know, like I feel like she's just not, you know, she's off on an island

10:16that she owns somewhere. But yeah, like Google it brought me to a Reddit thread that the very first thing was like, you should listen to this six part bastards. So, but I will just say my experience with Oprah is that what I went to, my first job out of college was being a pool boy. My second job out of college was working for ABC News. And when I was going to work for ABC News, I was like, I thought I was going to work for like this classy journalistic institution and on the news desk behind Peter Jennings, you know, and I got there and everybody had little TVs at their desks. And the second that Oprah came on, everyone was just watching Oprah and not as like a guilty pleasure thing. It was like, they're like, this is the or text. This is what we build television news out of is the shit that Oprah is out here mining

11:19in the in the consciousness of America every single fucking day. And Bridget, you talked about on the bastards episode that like you grew up watching Oprah with your mom. I think you said right? Yeah, I grew up in an Oprah centric house within an Oprah centric family. My mom loved Oprah, my dad loved Oprah, my grandmother loved Oprah. When Oprah did her Oprah in Africa special, I remember my grandmother taping it. And she, this was on a woman who taped things on TV. So just to give you a sense of how big of a deal. Yeah, I just want to say up front as a black woman in media, I have such deep reverence for Oprah. I think that she is a really kind of deliciously complicated person and I could talk about her all day. I really agree with your point, Jack, about how in 2026, I don't know that the younger people know how much when they, this is the architecture of media, whether it's podcasts or people being influencers or people opening up about their personal lives in a way that

12:21connects to something a social or political issue. I don't know if people really understand how much Oprah architected the soup that we are swimming in today in 2026. Yeah, right. The suit. I love swimming in a good soup. It is. Most people will say like the water, it's the water that we're all swimming in, but it is grosser than that. It is more of a soup. There are chunks in here. Yeah, like Bridget was saying it's complex. Like when you're swimming in soup, you're like, ooh, but then you're also like, but it is nourished. There's stuff like a heat in here, but that's disgusting. I don't know what to make of it. Yeah. I will say her power, her gift and her curse is that she is enormously successful and gifted at channeling what America wants and giving it to Americans. That's not all that she does, but she's got an amazing kind of nose for the zeitgeist. Sometimes that's great. It makes her make some of the most entertaining shit that's ever been on television.

13:26Sometimes it does cause her to have Jenny McCarthy on to America. America wants to cure. And so she repeatedly, whether it be Dr. Oz or Jenny McCarthy and the autism shit, she finds ways to give it to them. The statistics on crime, 80% of sexual assaults are committed by family members or people you know. And people don't want that to be true. They want some other version where there's a shadow we figure out there and they're leaving zip ties on your car door handle. There's a puzzle that you can do to get your way out of harm. So that's the version that you get from Oprah. They want satanic cults. And so you get satanic cults instead of the reality in some situations. Not all situations, but I do think a lot of the negatives of her legacy come from her

14:32giving the people what they want essentially in a way that's probably unhealthy because Americans want terrible shit. And the people wanted Jenny McCarthy like she. Oh yeah. She was not. I'm not saying it was good for us, but she definitely had her finger on the pulse of what horrible, harmful trash thing we were going to eat up and ask for more. Donald Trump built his like political, his 2016, like 2015, 2016 political rise on just mainlining talk radio, like conservative talk radio and just you know, getting a sense of like this is what like in the battles of America, this is like the horrible shit that they that people want. And I feel like if a Democrat on the other hand had been just mainlining Oprah and like reading it not as like and so I'm going to give them, you know, vaccine skepticism, but like being like, this is what is coming down the line.

15:34And like we need to prepare for it. I think they would have been better off. But instead people are just like, ah, Oprah, you know, by the way, did you guys, do you remember people saying that Oprah would have been like should run for president? Oh yeah. I was like a constant, right? Yeah. I remember very specifically, this is back when I was one of the co-host of stuff mom never told you we did a serious episode weighing that claim. And people were not making this claim like the way that people are, are, we'll say, you know, John Stuart should run for president or whatever, like people went it seriously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I want to be clear that this was not just a joke thing that people were saying at time. No, yeah, for sure. Because I think a lot of people were like, I mean, it's like this might be the one woman a color white women will vote for. You know what I mean? Like, because she had white women in a stranglehold like with people being like the deference paid to Oprah. So I remember even that, I was all saying like, probably, I mean, honestly, like a lot of white women will vote for Oprah. So maybe there is something to that. Like I see her.

16:34She has a peel in some weird, like in that very reductive way of being like, well, there's mass appeal. Therefore, you, you win president. Totally. She, as we're going to get to, she came into that. Acting game. I thought she was an actor who like was also on TV. And she liked the book, the color purple was like, oh, they're making a movie for the color purple. I really want that like willed her way onto it. She was so inexperienced that when she came onto the set, she was looking into the camera every time and see this. And be like, yo, yeah, don't spike the camera. She can do whatever the fuck she wants. That's it. By the way, like, we'll get to it. But her, her performance in that movie was nominated for an author. So like, yeah, she could do whatever the fuck she wanted to. It just like, it's all about the only thing that was far fetched about the idea of Oprah becoming president is that it didn't seem like she wanted to do that.

17:37Yeah. The other part of her was that like, she, she knows how to live well. Like she, she knows how to have a good time. And like, she was gonna fucking ruin her life to do that shit. Come on. Yeah. And I mean, I don't, I'm happy that she did not run for president. But when she, when people who are having serious conversations about whether she would run for president, it was the early days of Trump. And so I just want to say to your point, Jack, I don't think that Oprah running for president is any more far fetch than Donald Trump running for president or some, yeah, or someone like to do her curls and running for president. Like, it's not, I don't think it's, I don't think it's that, even though it's not something that I was down with and I'm happy that she didn't do it for lots of reasons, but it's not like it's that far fetched that it would be something that would be, what would actually happen. Right. If Obama had really been playing for D. chess, he and Seth Meyers would have gotten up on that stage at the White House correspondent's dinner and just started humiliating Oprah

18:41and being like, you'll never be president Oprah. Because is that what like, lunch that made Trump want to be the president? What if they had just done that to Oprah to be like, yeah, right. No, no chance. Obama should have just clowned Oprah from the White House correspondent's dinner and that would have been the first domino that started everything. Yeah. Come on, come on, Oprah. You know, I'm like the true king of Chicago. Yeah. Come on. Right. You can never be. You can never be. All right. Let's get into origins. Oprah was born in Koshesco, Mississippi. I don't know how to pronounce it. And they have a sign in Koshesco. Koshesco. I think it's a school. Jack, we should we should we should know how to say that. Koshesco. You know what I mean? Just Mississippi. Oprah was born in Koshesco, Mississippi. There are you happy. There we go. We got to make sure there are. You are. You respect. One interesting thing.

19:43Oprah was actually named after the biblical figure, Orpa. Everyone just started misspelling it, spelling it as Oprah by accident and because it was easier to pronounce. She didn't find out her real name was Orpa until she was around 20. I do just want to stop and that's wild. You were named after Orpa from I had people just say, I don't think that's Oprah. I think that's Oprah. So there's a point later in her career where she doesn't episode about class consciousness and the fact that there are like actual barriers to people being upwardly mobile in the country. Robert Reich is on making the point like we live in a society in which you know the most important predictor of where you're going to end up is your parents class in their wealth. And Oprah was basically like, I don't believe in luck. I don't consider myself lucky at all actually. And I'm just going to go ahead and point out some of the moments where she was extraordinarily

20:47lucky. And I think this has to be number one. If people hadn't accidentally transposed two letters of her name and accidentally invented an iconic name that fucking pops. Yeah. Yeah. That's a pops. Yeah. That's a name you just like can't stop saying that also nobody else in the world has like we wouldn't be doing this episode right now. Were it not for that page one rewrite? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like a built in like writer's room. It was like kind of helping him by screening like bad ideas out. Oprah just got a day one rewrite from the people in her family like improving her name. Just a little bit dyslexia. A hundred percent. Yeah.

21:48Yeah. Just a little bit. Just a wee bit. Yeah. Cause I think Orpa Winfrey would still be like an anchor in Nashville. Yes. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. That's like you kind of you're going to tough want to talk about it. It's a tough name. Although who knows? I think Orpa. Huh? Orpa. I don't think so. Yeah. And I think having a name that really can pop on its own like share Madonna. We don't have a lot. I think having a name. I was reading this and don't come from me, but I love a trashy celebrity memoir. And I read Omarosa's memoir and she talks about that a little bit. How like she feels like having a name that can kind of pop as a memorable versus for iconic first name. Oh, yeah. Omarosa. Orpa. I mean, if Oprah had just been a name, Omarosa, you know, like that's about the, but Oprah is just, it's like the only question of like I don't sang. I don't believe in luck as obviously ridiculous.

22:49I don't think Oprah is just a lucky person. I think Oprah is a generational genius at a number of things who also got luck. Love here. Then a lot of other generational geniuses. You know what I mean? And like Orpa, Orpa is a tough. That name dies in your mouth. Like not just in the culture. I should do. Yeah. So there's a lot of disagreement between her and her relatives about like how good or bad she had it growing up. Like she, especially in the early days, she really emphasized like, you know, she didn't have shit. I think she said that like she had two cockroaches for pets played with a toilet brush for a doll. I made that last one up. But like basically that was like kind of the idea was kind of like dolly partners. Dolly partners. Very dolly partners. Like she, I think she specifically said like her dolls were, you know, kind of makeshift.

23:52And she has relatives who were like, no, she had really nice dolls that her mom. Got from like the white family that her mom worked for. But she, she also said, yeah, she literally said she had cockroaches for pets and her relatives were like, she had a cat, a parakeet and an eel. So like more pets than like that's a pretty good pet collection. Um, how do you have a pet eel? I know. It's really, it's really good. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know anyone with a pet eel. I know. But that's how she, yeah, she was living good. But it's also, I, I'll say like anytime you have somebody who got extremely rich, it's kind of like taking testimony after a divorce, you know, you'll hear a lot of wild rumors and shit about a celebrity after, like after a divorce. And it's like, yeah, I mean, some of that is true. But like it's also people with a lot of motivation to, um, and just generally people do this with their own lives. If you're a celebrity or not, like we have stories that are sort of foundational to our

24:54identities that like half the time you're like, wait, I think, I think I just started saying this about myself at this part of my life when I look back, no, that was just part of my own self myth making, too. So I definitely see that as a thing. A lot of people sort of misremember about their own lives, too, just to give things a little bit more. Everyone that she's definitely said that like she always felt less than growing up. And the older I get and the more like I've like had real conversations with people, it's like literally everybody feels that way, you know, like almost everybody feels that way. And like you find ways of dealing with it oftentimes unhealthy. And I think a lot of really successful people, like the way that they find of dealing with that is through success. And you know, like in the same way that like addicts will use a substance to deal with that feeling. But like somebody who's just ace, rocket, a straight line upward rocket ship of success.

25:57Right. You kind of never had to deal with that. Your bullshit kind of, you know, you had to like, you're able to just sort of continue to be more and more and more successful. Which she, she certainly had that as a teenager. So she came up in the like pageant world and specifically Miss Black Nashville, Miss Black Tennessee and was also went on to compete for Miss Black America, which was a pageant that was launched in protest of the Miss America pageant, which until 1950 mandated that its contestants quote, must be of good health and of the white race. So that's the world that she's coming up in like more like Miss Aryan. I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, not that I was like looking to the Miss America pageant for other than that one woman who answered the question about Iraq.

26:57So so brilliantly miss South Carolina. Oh my God. Right. That's the only part of the pageant that I looked to for my political ideas. Of course. And the Iraq such as such as such. And, of course, when you go back and watch this is a non-sequitur, if you go back and watch that clip, the person who asked the question is Mario Lopez. Yeah. And he's literally biting his lip to not, he's essentially laughing in her face. What's he, Jesus, yeah. I know. And then like she always talks about she's like, man, my life ended that day. Yeah. Like I, this was like early internet clip era. Everybody was win milling on me. It was a pretty dark moment of life. Like, is, are you sorry? Sorry. I see people as human then. They were just kind of caricatures. The lack of that. I have compared and I've competed in a few pageants when I was a kid and they tell you when you ask the, when you're, if you're asked the question that you can't answer, you're supposed to breathe, smile and then just sort of start talking and like get yourself to the answer

27:57and answer a different question. Yeah. I think sort of see her doing that. So she was actually, I think, following the stand, what I understand to be the standard pageant advice just kind of took her off the rails. Yeah. Somebody who has social anxiety, I definitely recognize what's happening there. I've given that answer in conversations before. I just like, you know, I didn't have a television camera on me, but I've definitely panicked a sentence into a conversation of the life. What the fuck am I talking about? Freakin' out, man. Right. Right. Anyways, at age 19, she became the first black female anchor at Nashville's WTVF TV. And this is where we get an interesting view. So she is at a local TV station in the 70s. I always knew that anchor man was like built on some level of like truth. But according to interviews in Kitty Kelly's very controversial Oprah biography, the Nashville,

28:59but she goes around and talks to the people who worked with Oprah all along and is like, she was kind of a bitch, right? That seems to be the leading question to all of that book. But this does, has nothing to do with Oprah being a bitch or not. It's just what she found, talking to people who worked there, that the department was heavily medicated at the time. They were selling window pane LSD in the hall. The staff bought Oprah's co-anchor a coax boon as a gift and management had to remove a vending machine from the office because it had been rigged to dispense marijuana. Awesome. Awesome workplace. Hell yeah. That's that. And she's also like, she also dates like some co-workers and like people and she has the struggle of like being put on human interest stories around this time. It is like literally the plot of anchor man. Right, right, right. Everybody's like, you're holding me back.

30:00Yeah, right. She's, yes. I think that makes she does later talk like she's interviewing mothers who have dealt with drug addiction and she kind of breaks down in tears and comes clean about the fact that she had had some problems with cocaine use and people think that it's around this time when again, she's it is just what every fucking person at the office is doing the whole time. She has like sort of like the wherewithal to be like, and I'm going to be kind of honest about this. Yes, exactly. Right. Yes. I believe the idea of that. All right. So goes to Baltimore. Her debut there is hyped with billboards reading what is an Oprah again. Great name. Like the Matrix when the Matrix came out. What is the Matrix? Wow, what is an Oprah? And then from there quickly gets her own morning show and Chicago. And before long, they're like, why are we calling this AM Chicago?

31:04This is the Oprah Winfrey show. Right, right. And it becomes the Oprah Winfrey show and she immediately starts beating Phil Donahue's ass. Phil Donahue was like the number one daytime talk show person. He had like kind of invented the format and Oprah is just immediately whooping his ass to the point that it becomes nationally syndicated with the newly named the Oprah Winfrey show. I can understand why she dominated so quickly the point that you made when she revealed her own personal struggles with cocaine dependency. That I feel like that little nugget is exactly Oprah of figuring out a way to humanize stories and to connect with both the audience and the subject that you're talking to in a way that kind of seems very personally revealing and vulnerable, but actually also has the function of getting the other person talking and sort of breaking down their barriers. You can really see if she's just fucking good at this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. It's like almost like, is it a form of like pathology, or you're like, oh, yes, I also like,

32:05you know, you're right. That's the thing. She's really good at finding that common ground to your point, Bridget, which then allows someone the comfort to then begin revealing thing after thing after thing. Yeah. Totally. Like that is the theory of the case that I think her relatives who say that she's a liar are like, yeah, she just says, she's like, oh, me too. Essentially, every time somebody says something, but I don't think that's true. It seems, it seems like she'll say she had a similar experience when she had that experience. Oh, yeah. It's kind of the sense I get. And then she's just really good at talking about it. Um, but I don't think she's lying. I'm sure the, the, the toilet lid at the studio in Tennessee where they were doing drugs look like a cutting board from people who cocaine off that thing. And she knew about it. And then only part of Oprah's success that I mentioned this when I was introducing you mouth is due to Roger Ebert. So he's also a popular syndicated television personality in the Chicago area at this time. And Oprah and Roger Ebert are dating when her, when she's being offered a syndication

33:11deal. And Ebert's show was already syndicated. And so he was like, they, they were on a date at the hamburger hamlet. Come on, Roger. Well, the, yeah, I missed that. I know. But yeah. So she had like put different ways that she could go with the show. And he was like, all right, well, let me just like do run some quick numbers for you based on my show. So he's like, he's an annual salary. What's that? I say, he just starts snoring a bunch of cocaine. He's like, let me just do some math. They're quick. I mean, I'm thinking it's called taryology. Hey, damn, Robert, what? Her Roger. Took his annual salary multiplied by two because his co-critic sis goal was fucking eating into his head. Okay. Then he multiplied that number by five since Oprah's show would be on five days a week. And then he doubled that number to reflect the hour timeframe. And then doubled it one last time because he was like, and also like, you're way better at this. The man here can be like really successful. And then she was like, wow, that's a big number.

34:13He was like, yeah, I think you should probably syndicate your talk show. Wow. Robert Hart has a type like his, the person, the woman he was married to when she died is also like a very successful black woman from Chicago. And I'm just getting, I don't think I realized he, this is a little bit of a pattern for him. Yeah. Yeah. Little deniro. I think there's a pattern here as Boston, the Buster, the Buster, the down with the swirl. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Professor Ebert. Yeah. Okay. All right. I'll come back. We'll talk about her show launching and her acting career launching. We'll do it. Okay. You know those pieces in your closet that you find yourself wearing on repeat. I used to have three shirts that I love and I'd wear them until I looked like I'd just been rescued from a desert island. I don't have to do that anymore because I found quints and those pieces that make getting dressed easy. That's what quints does best.

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39:26And we're back. So her show is taking off around this time but when it's still even before it's like nationally syndicated, she gets the role in the color purple which is wild doesn't it. It's just like so like we take it for granted but like that is not a per like daytime talk show host. Yeah, because you like it filled on a hue was cast in a Martin Scorsese movie like that would be weird. Like I was surprised to learn Jerry Springer was the mayor of Cincinnati. That was crazy to me. I was like this guy. Guy from daytime talking. But like the guy who yeah who gets like the cops to fight the gang members on stage. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Yeah, I guess that does make sense to the mayor. But it does just solidify like she could have done whatever she wanted to. She just went with what was I think interesting and going to bring her. She had a vision.

40:27But she was like I said not a star at all. So this is how it happened. Quincy Jones. Hey, Quincy got called last minute to testify in a plagiarism lawsuit involving Michael Jackson. Someone claimed that he had stolen the girl is mine from him that like this person said I wrote the girl is mine. And so Michael Jackson got dragged to Chicago for this lawsuit and he brought Quincy Jones. Quincy Jones couldn't sleep on the morning of the trial woke up and turned on the TV and Oprah was on. And it was just like again, she's local TV at this point. And he's a producer on the color purple and he called Steven Spielberg and was like, Hey, I just found Sophia just looking at her. God damn. On a local broadcast of the Oprah limfrey. Is that because I'm like I'm so impressed by people like this who just have who just somehow just like there there it is.

41:27There she is. Then I'm like, is it that the bar so low everywhere else and you kind of have a slightly above average analytical eye where you're like, yeah, this is the best thing out there. Or you know, I'm so I just I'm fascinated with also I think it's also the confidence that Quincy Jones has to like whenever you hear interviews and things like that, he's never like unsure about anything. Even his worst takes. He's like, fuck it. He stands on that shit. So I think there is something also about the confidence of a very talented creative person. I think probably through the TV he could sense. He's like, no, there's the material is there for something. We just have to figure out how to form it. But shout out to Quincy again. Yeah. Quincy Jones is also is like a rare creative talent like otherworldly. Yeah. Just also just somebody who really trusts his decision making creative and artistically which I think is really cool. Having read the novel by Alice Walker, color purple, I totally get what Quincy Jones was seeing, you know, the character of Miss Sophia. I feel like even before I knew it was going to be Oprah, like Oprah, Oprah who who pops

42:33up in your head when you're reading the book. But when I totally buy, but he just sees her on local TV and is like, oh, that's our Miss Sophia, who else could it be? And if y'all have seen the movie, it could be no one else. No one else could have had the range to make Miss Sophia her own like Oprah Winfrey did. So yeah, I think speaking of confidence, which, you know, he possesses and probably can sense in somebody else because you know, Miss Sophia like comes in that first scene to like abusive Danny Glover and just like owns the fucking room. Right. Just like big timing him in a way that she's like, what the fuck is going on here? Why is everybody doing what this guy says? Like, she had no acting experience and she at that time was like, I got to find a way to get in the color purple. Like she knew they were making the movie and was just like, yeah, I should probably be in that. Like, it was just like so wild. That's like how I thought I was going to be on SNL when I was in college. Exactly. You know, I mean, I'm like, damn, bro, I should be on that.

43:34How am I going to do that? But it's like the boom goes the dynamite guy being like, I feel like I'm going to be on SNL next just the difference. But again, like you that's that's a no, that's a fucking superpower when you're like, I don't know how, but I'm going to. And also you probably benefit from also having the platform where someone can't notice you. And again, let's just talk about luck because if that guy hadn't sued Michael Jackson, if Michael Jackson hadn't needed Quincy Jones to come in, if Quincy Jones had been able to sleep that morning, like none of this happens. And you know, so there's a massive stroke of luck. But to in retrospect to Oprah, she is like, I had the thought that I wanted to be in this movie. And then I was in that movie manifestation. And hence we get the secret, you know, right, right, right. It's like that's also just how like all this icon shit works is that all of these people are people for whom because of just like the way the dice rolled are having incredible

44:37strokes of good luck. And they are awarding it to shit that they did, you know, like things like moves that they made. And it's like a combination, but you know, it's, yeah, you're going to get some magical thinking. Well, that's how, but even if you tell somebody who's, you know, all in on like manifestation, and they're like, well, it's all these guys, they go, well, no, she had the thought to even be open to be a newscaster, which then got her this thing and those sequence events. And it does everything. It's like, yeah, sure. But also, one of the fucking Quincy Jones had to be there to see her because I'm sure, but I think that is crazy to think though to her intent was there. She did not have the the conductive material or person to like actually get in front of Spielberg. But then you have, but here this person comes and, you know, is able to observe your time. She's going on TV every day. Maybe she is like putting it out there. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm putting out misophia energy today on the show just in case it works out, you know,

45:37you look at those episodes. She's like, she's dressed differently and looks sweaty all the time. She was just doing misophia. Like, you're like shit. And she was asking, who's Harpo, who's baby is this? So she reads for the part, doesn't hear back for several months and assumes she hadn't gotten the part went to what she calls a health farm to lose weight and is like, she says she's like running around a track, crying, being like, I've fucked up my career. Like I'm too, you know, people immediately were like, she's, wow, this person is overweight. We can't believe it. Like, what a disaster. There's disease, crazy interviews with her and like, Joan Rivers where she's like, oh my God, why are you so fat? Joan Rivers, it's like crazy. But anyways, she's running around a track, crying and somebody from the health farm comes out and is like, there's a Steven Spielberg on the phone for you.

46:40And she picks up the phone and he's like, hey, sorry, I haven't like gotten back to you. You have the part ish, but if you lose weight, you don't have the part. And so she's like, okay, checks herself out. I do. Says she went to a dairy queen on the way to the airport just to be like, well, I better not lose this weight. Celebrate. And yeah, first day of filming, doesn't know she's not supposed to look directly into the camera, which by the way, I do think making reassuring eye contact with the camera is Oprah's like that is how I picture her when I close my eyes and picture Oprah. She is looking into the camera and she's being the best at staring down the barrel of the camera that has ever done it. I feel like with that big hair too, like I'm picture like 93 Oprah hair. That's the Oprah that looks at me and my dream. So she goes from that to receiving an Oscar nomination. That supporting actress is like just yeah, that's that's talent.

47:41I know I've made this point. I think I made this point on the bastard's episode, but I if people haven't seen the color purple. It's one of my favorite movies. She definitely watch it. It's because all of my life I've had to fight kitchen tables each is what it is one of the most iconic pieces of film that is so dear to the black community. And you know, it's beginning of all right. Yeah, it's it's referenced by Kendrick Lamar. I cannot oversell what a big deal this was. And my understanding is that she was not actually even meant to have that huge of a part in the movie. But what she got on set, they were like, oh, we got to get for more dialogue. And my understanding is that there are people on set who did not like that. What Miss what be golberg who plays Cili who was ostensibly the main character of the color purple apparently people loved Oprah so much that there was some some I guess what he felt some kind of way about the fact that like when you think of the color purple, most people think of Miss Sophia before they think of Cili, even though Cili is the

48:43main character. Right. I mean, I think yeah, because this was also the end introducing what be golberg movie. Like that's how it's written in the credits. Like it's a big deal for both of them. I think I've absolutely think of both of them. But yeah, what these performances definitely more understated and I can I can definitely see going in going into production with somebody who you've only really you've seen like read for the part in your office and has never acted before. And being like, all right, we need to like have a version of this where this person's barely in the movie. And then she gets on and is just like comes alive is just like, you know, popping off the screen and you're like, oh, well, I guess we got to amp it back up. Let's dial it back up, baby. Dial up that Oprah. It's definitely up there for my favorite Oprah performance. Also question.

49:44A bit of nominative determinism because of Harpo being in the character. Her name is Oprah. Then she has the production company. I mean, so her characters love interest husband in the color purple is named Harpo. And when she reads for the part in like when she leaves the health farm slash, you know, that farm and goes and reads for the part in Steven Spielberg's office. She's reading opposite the guy who's going to play Harpo and Steven Spielberg was like, and I realized we've got Oprah and then Harpo right there. Like and it's her name backwards and Oprah of course pointed that out immediately. So there is like some she was probably going to get the line the role anyways, but there is a moment where they're like, this is fucking Kismet. Like this is crazy. It's lining up like this. It's like me and Prince Harry having a podcast. When I'm like, yeah, bro, we got the same work. I'm leading with that shit. I'm like, motherfucker, we got the same exact same day.

50:47What time are you born? Me too. Me too, bro. Same year and everything. Same year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm married to Megan. I'm sorry. You didn't know you were on a podcast with a celebrity. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I don't know if it surpasses Oprah's performance as Judge Bumbleton in B movie. The Jerry, Jerry Seinfeld, maybe Judge Bumbleton who is somewhat confusingly not a B. It's a, it's a person who in B movie whose name is Judge Bumbleton. She's a human being in the movie. A human being, judging the case of B versus Earth. Love. I don't know. But what does that mean? Yeah. And just happens to be named Bumbleton because Jerry Seinfeld is a good screenwriter and don't let anybody tell you differently. He is good at this. All right. Let's talk about the content of the Oprah Winfrey show.

51:51Right from the jump, she distinguishes herself as being like unafraid to tackle big topics. And she goes right at racism by taking her show to Forsyth County, Georgia, which is an all white community that had violently forced out all black residents in 1912. And they are still like proud of that shit to the day that like Oprah brings the show there. And like she has these community members on who are like, you know, openly like, yeah, I'm proud white and like they're KKK members and shit. And it's just she's so much like it's just she's just like, okay. So like listens to them. And it's like, hmm, seems wrong. But like her, her like ability and like obvious like intelligence is kind of the entire argument. It's not like she's like shouting these people down. You've just got. And then there are people from the town who are like, this is crazy.

52:52You know, it shouldn't be a situation where black people aren't allowed to live in our town. But it's seen as groundbreaking at the time. You know, this is the 80s. This is when America like mainstream culture was selling the myth that like America had kind of solved racism. You know, and that like the the Hux were now, you know, the Jefferson's had moved on up and were now the Hux to bulls and like it's not, you know, the episode wasn't really showing the facts of systemic racism, but it's hard for people to watch this and think racism is solved while watching an entire town that is like a fucking sundown. Yeah, I had itself on the back for what it did. You like, oh yeah, that's that's no, no, no. And I think there's a version like this is something that I do really respect about Oprah because there's a version of her that doesn't tell that story where where she might think I don't have an easier time being mainstream mega successful.

53:54If I kind of go along with the lie that we've solved racism, we live in a colorblind society, like she could be exhibit a this is what's all good. Look, I have a show, you know, and I think the fact that she chose something different that she chose like no, I'm a I'm going to make content that really sort of exposes the fact of the reality of race in this country. I think really says something about the moves that she was making at that when even at this early stage in her career, yeah, yeah, it's definitely not the path of least resistance. It was definitely not the path of like give America whatever they want, you know, it was her being like, this is kind of what America needs to see at this time. And then she's able to do the best job of like packaging that. And probably an easier way for like white audiences to confront white supremacy, too, use it as this example of a thing that a county did in 1912 without having to talk about like sure broader systems of oppression, which gets a little bit head, you can just go look at these interesting white folks that kicked everybody out in 19

54:57bro. Are you okay? Huh? And people go, yeah, that's what I mean. Like it's such a good way to stealthily introduce these concepts to people in a way that we'll get a broad sort of coalition of support from your viewers. You're not going to put people off immediately be like, what the fuck are you talking about? No, I need to do nothing bad. My grandpa was racist. You know what I mean? Like where it's just sort of like, look at this, look at this place and just treating it like this odd thing. But I think again, a meat like with so many of the topics she picks, it's, it's there in people subconscious because even for the people who want to believe they lived in a post racial America, they know that shit like this exists still. They know people like this exist still. And to just sort of like bring it up like this and just kind of tease it out for people, I think yeah, it's a very effective way to have those conversations because prior to that people were like, no, I know about race. I watch blazing saddles. You know what I mean? Like I've done the work. Yeah. And by the way, like this was not an easy job to do when she came to town. She received a phone call from a man who said, this is the clan.

55:59We're going to kill you and like hung up and she just was like, all right, well, we got a show to do and just stayed and did the show. And then, you know, the so she did, she did a show in LA after the riots and was just not no celebrities, not the chief of police, just like community members talking about their experience with the riots. At her best, she is like on some studs turquoise shit where she's just like going and letting Americans tell their stories in their own voices in a way that I think is probably really valuable, especially on subjects like this where the kind of mainstream consensus was so far out of line with like every people's lived experiences of racism at the time, you know? Yeah, which is wild too, because you think of like what even daytime talk shows are now and nobody's even close to doing some shit. Like we went to, you know, like we went to Minnesota to speak with the people currently experiencing ice rates, you know what I mean?

57:01And doing something like that, like that just that's what the internet is for. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. But like when you think of like how much like daytime television is sort of morphed now into just a purely like promotional vehicle for like other like marketing things, yeah, like you're like, oh, yeah, there was there was something there that was giving like giving people the requisite amount of discomfort to just sort of do something, not fully solving it, but just enough to be like, just not to knew a little bit. Yeah, I was in a hotel recently and you know how when you're in a hotel, you're just flipping channels and whatever's on you're watching. Experience. Yeah, the one time you're experiencing linear television again and you're like, and now we're going to time travel. Right. And I might have been Kelly Ripa or was it was some kind of daytime TV talk show and they were advertising a trivia slash dance contest for people were coming on the show to compete in trivia, but then part of the competition was also if they could dance. And that is when we're thinking, what the hell is this? What is this?

58:01Is this what daytime TV is? I don't even think we had like I, again, I don't watch a lot of network TV, but is there a daytime 2026 equivalent of what Oprah was doing where people are trying to, I'm not saying it's the most hard hitting, but it ain't a dance contest, right? It's not like a celebrity telling the same story they told a hundred times to promote their podcast or whatever. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wouldn't know. I mean, I watch just look, Bridget, we know we have the same YouTube algorithms. We're watching, we're watching body cam videos of white women get arrested for stealing things. Okay. To know how to come in contact about white women getting arrested for stealing things about body cam called our rhythms. We talked about what our algorithms are serving us. We literally will pierce an eye heart, expect an email. That's our rhythms is telling you Jack, I was telling you about this. This is off. I was telling you about this.

59:02This is some rigid. We're talking. We're talking. I'm telling you this is some shit. I've been thinking of for a long time. This is gold. We got a fast track this one. This is a great idea. The best thing will you got it? Okay, will Connell Greenlight? Let's go. I, our rhythms are so good. Rhythms. Rhythms. Yes, of course. I mean, I'm not here to be in that way, but you can. Thank you, Jack. I'm going to say 50 cents. I'm going to call him 50 cents. Okay. I will call him two quarters. I will say to your point that like she's like kind of bringing white people along very slowly. They're one of her most famous episodes is also about racism where they bring in this expert guest who tells the audience that they basically split audience between brown and white people and blue eyed people and they're like discriminating against the blue eyed people. And it's some real like person comes to your workplace to teach a lesson about discrimination.

1:00:07And like it's kind of on some, I bet this shit hits so hard if you eat crayons type shit. But it's also. But like when it comes to racism, like white people in the 80s are some crown eating mother fucker, you know, like that. So I don't, I don't think that this was wrong. They were wrong to do this. I'm like, you see people like it eventually don's on the blue eyed people. They're like, I think what you're trying to say is that being discriminated against is hard for the races that are discriminated against. This one guy like stands up, it was like, but I will just say like the races are different. Whereas blue eyed and brown eyed people are not different. Like he still like can't get it. That's where I'm like, I'm not mad for you. I'm not mad at all in the 80s and 90s because people were so fucking dumb. And I'm sure as a woman of color, you're like, I don't know how the fuck to get these people to even move a fucking inch closer to realizing what the fuck.

1:01:09Okay, how about this mother? It's like blue eyed people. The fuckers over here, brown eyed mother fuckers over here, y'all suck. How does that feel? You're trying to train a pet to understand racism. Yeah. Maybe if I give them treats, yeah, you got one less, you got half the treats and this, this animal worked a duck twice as hard for how the treat. Yeah, that feels bad. The treats are actually different on a cellular level if you think about it. Oh, here we go. Oh, goddammit. It's so close. Let's take one more break. We'll come back. We got a lot of Oprah to get through here, guys, but this is too fun to talk about with you guys. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back. Moving days going great until the couch won't fit through the door. That's when I turn to airtasker. Post your task and find local help for packing, cleaning, furniture, assembly, errands and more. Go to airtasker.com or download the app. Airtasker. Get anything done. What if your soda actually did something for you?

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1:03:11That's TryFencing.org. Get the feeling you should maybe get out more, see and do more? Totally normal. So is staying stuck because finding out what and where just seems hard. A do more subscription brings you concerts and comedy, sports and museums. For seven scrawny bucks a month, you get at least one pair of tickets to something great, discover new bands, laugh, learn, do more. And right now do more makes interesting and adventurous easy because your first month's free at domorestuff.com slash free. You might drink it every day, but did you know that the history of tea is steeped in Skolduggery, colonialism, and industrial espionage. I'm Greg Jenner, host of Your Dead To Me with a comedy show that takes history seriously, and in our latest episode we spill the tea on tea. And as to unpack the ancient Chinese origins of the drink and find out how it became the national drink of modern Britain. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:04:15Mom, are we there yet? Ten more minutes. Only ten minutes. Can you drive slower? What's up with them today? Lingo Kids. That app we downloaded last week? They love it. The games of this funny baby bot character. Kids were almost there. With more than 4,000 interactive games, songs, and shows little ones can't get enough of. Lingo Kids is the number one entertainment platform for young kids. Why didn't we download this sooner? Mabel Kids. Everything Kids love. Download it for free. And we're back. We're back. Oprah obviously very famous for diet culture for having that. There's a famous moment where she lost 67 pounds and came out with a radio flyer wagon full of animal fat. That was like 67 pounds to represent the 67 pounds that she had dropped, which I was

1:05:18vaguely aware of. It did not realize the way she dropped that weight was something called optifast, which meant that she had not eaten solid food in months. Judges like on a liquid, daily diet, otherwise known as a major and very dangerous eating disorder. Yes, sir. Yes. Something about Oprah is that as somebody who has the level of access and money that she has, she has really, her weight has been a topic of like public conversation for decades. And I feel like if any evidence that like crash diets do not work, it's the fact that she did so many of them and that this still remained a topic of conversation. Absolutely. Add to the most cutting edge of health nutrition diet science. And yeah, I think so. She actually just sold her steak in Weight Watchers like a year ago. And it was because she was like, I don't want to engage in false advertising.

1:06:21I don't fuck with this anymore because I'm on like the G, the G L P's. G L P's. Yeah. And so that's, at least she lives with she, you know, she's like, but I got my new brand of G L P ones. I know. Right. That's a good buy. Yeah. Like that's got to be coming. Another thing that's just a measure of how powerful she was that I don't like just for people who like born around for this. Just to I can't imagine and current celebrity where this would be true. She had somebody on to talk about mad cow disease. She said during the discussion that what she had learned has just stopped me cold from eating another hamburger. I've stopped. And that hit beef sales so hard that she got sued for $10 million by the Texas beef group. She had to like go to Texas to defend herself. Like just just saying just her plans. Yeah.

1:07:22Oh, I don't know about that. That's defamation. Right. That's how powerful she was. That's how powerful she was. That's fucking wild. And I love that when she made a whole thing of this, she started recording her show from Texas wearing like Tim Galen hats and shit. Like I this is probably my favorite moment in Oprah history. Amazing. Yeah. Like truly amazing flex because she wasn't allowed to say why she was down there. So she would do she did her show from Texas like brought all the, you know celebrity guests and shit in and suddenly this small Texas town that was trying to sue her is like, fuck this lady. So cool. Right. So cool. So like everybody loves Oprah. So on the one hand, they might say, oh, that Oprah, she tried to hurt our beef industry. On the other hand, it was like, oh, I watch her every day. I watch every day and actually brought a lot of business to the area. Yeah. Just her being here in terms of, but yeah, she would open each show being like, we're here in Texas for well, you know, like wouldn't, you know, she acknowledged it.

1:08:28But I remember when like she won. And I remember like the images of her, like it was such a huge moment. She like Oprah wins. Like she can't fucking be stuck. No, no. Yeah. I feel like it's like a picture of her like in the court. Like don't stop like coming out of the courthouse or like there's fucking Oprah. Can't be stopped. So this is unfortunately, it would be a good Oprah movie. Like if you're going to do the Oprah movie that like encapsulates everything, you're going to do the biopic that isn't like a baby being born. You know, in the first scene, that could be a good moment because it's not like a good moment. But it also contains the downfall because this is also where she meets Dr. Phil. Dr. Phil is like a consultant for her case. And like he rides to the courthouse with her every day. And that's how he, you know, Dr. Phil whispers his way in there. What capacity was he helping? I don't even know. Like he was a consultant on the case. I'm not even sure. Because I can't, I still years into writing about popular culture still can't really

1:09:29tell what the fuck he is like what he does or what he's supposed to be good at. Just says I'm a doctor, man. That's good. Good arrow. You just fucking just did that and people are like, he must be a medical doctor. That's right. I mean, why else would he say that? Oprah's book club speaking of literature, speaking of my angelou. She launched her book club in 96. People were like, no way this works. Getting Americans to read each one of her books would sell at least 500,000 copies, often times 1 million copies of books don't sell that much. That is 100,000 copies of a book is like a bestseller these days. She was moving weight. Yeah. She was going platinum like with albums, but with books. Yeah. What's so funny is I have a book out. Love it first prompt about AI and intimacy. And my publisher, we were making like a list of places to reach out to. And my publisher was like, oh, maybe Oprah has been having a lot of conversations on her podcast about AI.

1:10:31Maybe you can get in with the Oprah book people. And I was like, yeah, why not? Then I remember that I was part of a six part series about whether or not Oprah was a bastard. You're a chicken, man. That might not that might be why I'm not hearing that. Hey, quick pit, brig debt. Just switch around the letters like. I'm. That's me. That's a budget. That's budget. No, no, no, different person. Yeah, don't get easy with that other podcast. This is a bird get person. A bird getter. Okay. For the 19th season premiere of the Oprah Winfrey show, she offered audience members the chance to obtain their wildest dream. But only if their wildest dream was a mid budget sedan. She presented 11. So the pitch of the show coming in was we're going to give away 12 cars today. Which again, like pre-Mr. Beast, that was a big deal.

1:11:32Like I remember that hit. Oh, yeah. Like when they announced that, I was like cars, damn. Like you, you maybe saw like prices right give a car away once in a while, but like 12 cars is a crazy number of cars. So she has the 11 audience members on stage that got it and she's like, all right, remember I said 12. There is a set of keys hidden inside of one of the gift boxes that we are handing out that have been handed out to everybody. And she's like, all right, you can know it like out of drum roll going. You can open it now. If there's keys in there, you get a car. And everyone's opening it and everyone has keys in it. And the audience like, and she's like, you got a car. You get it. It's what she says she was doing that because like people didn't seem to comprehend what they were like, what the fuck is happening? Yeah, because no one believed it right there. Yeah, me a car, but also like the response of the people getting the shit is next level.

1:12:37Like this, this is the moment where like her energy is that of like a like mega church, like faith healer, but like their energy is that of people who are like speaking in tongues. Right, right. Yeah. People's heads are exploding. Like they're like heads are literally. That was an opit. Yeah, yeah. For having babies there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do like if she had just in that moment walked up to somebody in a wheelchair and like they had just been given that car and just been like, get up. Like are you telling me that person wouldn't have stood like they definitely would have for those punches aside. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm glad it's interesting to remember like the thing that the first response was like, everyone's like, you know, no one actually got that car, right? Right. And you're like, whoa, what? I'm like, she gave him away. And then they found out that like that people were on the hook for the like income taxes of getting that car. Yeah.

1:13:37But everybody wanted to just get on this right away because it was like, it is, it is such a viral moment. And like you want to, it's like almost like the current way that the internet reacts to a viral moment is, you know, it's like excitement. And then like you're going to do a parody of it and then you're going to like explain why it actually you shouldn't be excited about it or whatever. So everybody said that, yeah, they were like, first of all, no way did she give away that many cars second of all. Everybody actually had to pay $7,000 in taxes, which is true, but they also told people, look, this is you have to pay $7,000 in gift taxes or you can just take the car value of the car. Yeah. And then you like just don't have to worry about the taxes. And so it would just sold it right back to the dealership for like, and then like I didn't take, I actually made 32 grand from doing it. So the story that people had to pay $7,000 is a kind of bullshit. And also like she was so upset by it that when they gave away trips to Australia, like in subsequent seasons, they had like a CPA waiting in the wings to like settle all the

1:14:42tax related issues right away. Oh, interesting. Yeah. I know. It is kind of I was kind of like when she starts getting like big billionaire sort of energy though, too, or she's like, watch me give her give these people these little pony act g sixes and these other things. And that's like kind of the begin like where the connection to the earth begins to kind of slip away a little bit too. I feel like I will say she is groundbreaking in like being a billionaire who completely left the planet. Like, you know, she is on some Gwen of Paltrow shit in some in some respects. I do just want to share my fear because this became a viral thing of like people cutting up that you get a car, you get a car thing that was robot chicken versions of it. I just want my favorite with Brian that it has already referenced, but. Oh my gosh.

1:16:00Get your epic pens out. Oh my God. The reaction of the crowd during the giveaway does resemble people being stung to death by bees because they're freaking out. Yeah. And they're agonizing. Yeah. Yeah. That brings us to the Tom Cruise incident, which also I think the two the missing ingredient from both of those stories is like we need to acknowledge that Oprah's audience was like she was on some cult leader like, you know, Godhead level shit to these people like in America broadly, but especially to these people who had come to her show and they are the behavior in this audience is so wild when Tom Cruise is coming out and Oprah like Oprah is like teasing him and she's like and he's in the house and people are like, like they're fucking vibrating like violently vibrating when he's about to come out. And so he's like kind of playing to the crowd.

1:17:03I think everybody knows about this, but it's May 2005. Tom Cruise is like the number one movie star and he's promoting war of the worlds and ends up promoting whatever prescription drugs he has been refusing to take because he looks bonkers. He like keeps keeps like doing it's like he's doing these weird gestures like he keeps like doing this like weird kneel kneel down fist pump thing that like it really like underlines like that this person is not a human that they are somebody who has practiced human actions to appear human. Oh, yeah, but it's completely fucking up the performance. Yes. He keeps arm wrestling Oprah. He jumps on the couch a couple of times like it really gave the energy of like performative rehearsed. And like this is at a time that people are finding out the truth about like Scientology

1:18:08that like they are conducting girlfriend auditions. Yeah, like Shelley miscavage is conducting girlfriend auditions. Where is she now? And we don't know where she is. No clue. No clue. Oprah keeps being like, you're gone. You are gone. I mean, it's just all the jumping. I wonder if she was like, I hope he's on cocaine. Right. Like that's this man. I haven't seen anything like this since I was an anchor in Nashville. Yes. Yeah. And at this point, Tom Cruise had a pretty like controlled manicured image. Yeah. So this seemed like a real departure. And I think it is important that, you know, in our cultural imagination, I remember this is a moment where Tom Cruise like went bonkers on Oprah and jumped on the couch. But you're so right that she was really playing it up. The audience was really playing like it was he definitely I think was responding to the energy in the room. But I do think it was like a viral moment, a viral celebrity moment before we had a

1:19:11concept of what a viral celebrity moment was. Yeah, yeah. The like one of the very first viral celebrity moments on YouTube. YouTube had just been invented. So this is like the, it starts getting cut up to top one of the best ones. I think the most viewed one is Tom Cruise kills Oprah with with lightning. It's just all of his like grabbing her hands. They like add lightning over it. So it looks like he's electrocuting her. I think also it shouldn't we shouldn't underrate how much a black woman encouraging a white guy can really gas them up to new heights. Oh, I think it's all the time. He's like, yeah. Yeah, I'm glad he's in a game there in there. I'm glad you did the games cream there because it's got big, Dean's cream energy because he's in again. He's in. Yes. Oh, yes, baby. We love old Tom. You crazy. You don't know.

1:20:13Hey, doing box jumps off of fucking like a love seat and shit. According to Seth Rogen, by the way, I love the fact that like go seek out every Seth Rogen interview you can because he will just talk cash shit about like a weird celebrity has done something to him. He'll be like, oh, yeah. This guy's weird. And he said this. According to Seth Rogen, Tom Cruise once told him that there was a coordinated effort to make him appear foolish and that that video was like misleadingly edited by the pharmaceutical industry. And that this is like there's a psychology. I think this is the same around the same time that he went on with Matt Lauer. I was like, your glib, Matt, your glib. Yeah. The Matt Lauer thing was just a few days later. And it like, he got like dropped by paramilicate. It was like a big deal in his career. Yeah. I mean, he had just fired his publicists who had been like in charge of kind of controlling

1:21:14him and keeping him out of the public eye when convenient and had replaced her with his sister. It was a big time Scientologist. So everybody was like, oh, this is coming apart right now. So the fact that he was able to like wrestle it back into under control. My hat's off, Pia Tom. Oh, man. I wonder if Tom's like, and that was the happiest I ever was. Actually, those moments hopping up and down on that couch. So if you want to hear more about kind of the Dr. Phil Dr. Oz, John of God, stuff. There's plenty of that in the bastards episode. But you know, she does seem to, you know, whether it be the author of million little pieces, James Fry, Fry, whatever his name is or these guys, she does seem to have a soft spot for sociopaths. I will say that. And, you know, I think she's good at channeling what is coming, what people are interested

1:22:17in. And that I think that was true of the Tom Cruise thing. Like, you know, we were people were ready to say fuck celebrities at that point, like with the advent of the internet. So it's appropriate that like the first big fuck celebrities moment happened on her show. And then like Dr. Phil, obviously, has been routinely blasted by former guests for not only not helping them, but actively hurting them. Dr. Oz, there was a 2014 study that found that medical research that Dr. Oz recommended was either not substantiated or flat out contradicted. There is a difference between surgeons and doctors that I think people underestimate. Like he was one of the best cardiac surgeons, but surgeons like show up and do a mechanical thing to an unconscious object. And doctors scores are generally like effective based on how empathetic they are.

1:23:18But yeah, John of God was a really bad one. That was like a faith healer psychic surgeon who was able to like heal people by focusing his like God energy on them and turns out that wasn't true. But more than 300 women came forward to accuse John of God of sexual abuse. And then there's the Jenny McCarthy autism skepticism that like she did not push back on nearly enough. And I think this is like kind of at the point where she's losing the plot a little bit and has just been in a world of very famous people and billionaires for probably too long. Yeah, because I mean, like I feel like whenever I think about Oprah, like I net out at she broke so many barriers and created a completely different environment for people of color and entertainment to exist in and thrive in. And then she just takes a turn. Once you start really becoming hyper wealthy, which just feels like a story for fucking anybody or all like at a certain point your wealth, you're now just playing by a different set

1:24:23of rules and you're not thinking what's best for people. And that's like excuse anything. But I'm just like, and then she just fucking lost doing she became billionaire man. Like what are you going to do? Like what are you going to say? Like you know, she's she's doing billionaire things like buying up massive tracks of land. This is mine and doing just you know, piling around with the wrong people. It's surrounded by a lot of people who are like part of the Oprah company who are like, how do we make Oprah's vision? Like, you know, everything that Oprah's done to this point is great. And how do we keep that momentum going instead of like having any breaks? You know, it's just all gas. No breaks at that point. Yeah. I will say one of the worst things that she was ever responsible for was very early on in the Satanic panic era. You know, she had Michelle remembers on, which was like the book that kind of launched the Satanic panic. It's sort of like heraldo and Donahue in 2020. But she also did a 1989 Oprah interview. Again, you can like hear more about this on the bastards one, but this is a big one.

1:25:24She had somebody on who was like, I've witnessed the ritual sacrifice of a Jewish children by like Jewish families. So it was like it. Yeah. It it is blood like it's the thing the ancient anti like anti-Semitic trope that she is bringing out like at a time when, you know, that is again, like probably taking something that exists and bringing it out. Like some people wanted to believe that and just create like horribly, horribly dangerous. But probably the most fun bullshit thing that she gave light to is the rainbow party. Oh, I do just want to end there. 100% true also. In 2000. Yeah, Miles, you've talked about this. You experienced a lot of rainbow parties. I mean, like Bridget has been on podcast talking about Oprah. I've also been on my mama told me talking about the rainbow. Rainbow. That's right. That's right. Allow me to roll my sleeves over.

1:26:24So 2003, she hosted the episode is your child leading a double life in which Oh, magazine writer Michelle Burford told the audience to hold on to their underwear before revealing that teens were secretly throwing rainbow parties. First of all, doesn't hold on to your underwear imply that things are about to like be horny. Like I feel like that's it's not a not not the phrase I would use for being like, let's talk about my underwear and my underwear shoots off my body. And I remember whenever I'm caught off guard by a surprise. So it attracts for me. So these parties allegedly found female teens wearing different shades of lipstick and positioning themselves underneath a table where they would perform oral sex on multiple boys seated above the object of the game was to see. I mean, I do have to explain this to anybody. We've all been to these parties growing up as teens. I was always turning down invites, which girl could put a penis, the deepest in her mouth

1:27:27and the lipstick would create a rainbow effect on their dicks, which doesn't even like make sense from a physics perspective. No. But the producer didn't have any evidence that these parties existed just talked to 50 girls and like, you know, so basically they had evidence that this was an urban legend that was happening. Sure. Yeah. I did the work. I talked to a teenager who heard it from her cousin who knew a girl who did it at another school, the county over. And you're like, yes. Some people have pointed to like this being perfectly timed because it was in the years after the Clinton Lewinsky story and people were like, what is this going to do to our children obsessed? They were like, low jobs. See? Do you see what he's done? That's it. Should have voted perot. Uh-huh. I do have a very clear memory of being a kid during that whole thing and hearing about this stained dress and just like not being able to put together what they were talking about. Yeah. What is the stain? Like, what are they talking about? This is really working overtime trying to figure it out. Yeah. Yeah.

1:28:28Yeah. And then we're going to work board with red strings. What is this stain? Exactly. He's the stain. Who is this stain? Who is this stain? Who is the stain? Who is this person? Yeah. But some obvious issues with the story, not the least of which being the lipstick would, almost inevitably smear and destroy the supposedly sought after rainbow effect. Okay. But I'd say that's the one. That's the only one I can think of. There was a novel published in 2005 called Rainbow Part. The publisher specifically got the idea for the book after watching the Oprah episode then hired the author of Sabrina, the teenage witch, the official episode guide to hammer out some bullshit based on what was on the Oprah show. And I just want to read a segment from this novel. I'm sorry. What is what? What is the category of content when you're writing salacious erotica about children? Or children by children or about children? Yeah. This is the cover.

1:29:29It just says rainbow party. It has different shades of lipstick. And then here's some of the pros. What the hell are you talking about? Got it. Do I look like somebody who likes rainbow crap? No man. It's a sex party. Steve said some chick is throwing it. But I don't know who that's a relief. And technically it's not a sex party. It's just a world. So that's my dramatic reading. Who talks like it? Oh, thank God. It's just oral. Wait, what teenager you were made of? Pericard? Oh, God dang a sex. Who's freaking sex? Part, oh, good. It's just oral. I wasn't convinced that this was a real phenomenon until I read that dialogue very clearly and authentically in the voice of a teenager. It's also real hard to find like blue and green lipstick. Back when rainbow parties was like being talked about like they were real, you couldn't just go off the shut like buy this on the shelf. It was, I don't know.

1:30:30So many indications that this maybe was not the phenomenon Oprah would have you believe. Dude, that's crazy. This guy did so many really like he was like the official like nerd writer for TV shows. This guy Paul Ruditis on there and he did tie in novels for Buffy the Vampire Slayer charmed Angel Queers folk Frazier, the L word Star Trek, Roswell, the West Wing, Alias, Prisenbreak, bones, the Brady Bunch, Party Boys, Sabrina, the teenage which wrote a guide for GI Joe Rise of Cobra. And then we still get his bibliography. It's all this stuff with TV shows and then suddenly rainbow party. There it is. Damn. I will say. I was so I was watching the clip of that damn so you're saying racism sucks for even if I blew I person hasn't and the clip ends and I just want to show you what the final like production, you know, the thing that like Harpo studios production house thing looks

1:31:36like. It's like rainbow rings that like swirl together and like turn into an oh. Cool. I was like, damn. Was Oprah like fucking with us the whole time. Is this like her Kaiser so is a moment where she like showed a rainbow party in her Harpo studios logo. So I don't know man. I think she might have. I think she might have been fucking with us. I can't. I that's just too much for me to sort of process at one time. I'm only just now really harps its name backwards to. Harpo. Oh, I imagine the luck. I know. Yeah. It does seem like she's scrubbed all the clips of the rainbow party episode off the internet. But I doubt that any part of the episode is as disturbing as the time she interviewed the ninja turtles and Rafael confess that he's been trying to pressure April O'Neil into

1:32:37an inter species relationship. I remember that shit. Yes, that was so wild, bro. It was so in a pro. I remember as a kid because I was fucking with the ninja turtles seeing that. And it's funny too, Jack, because when you did the ninja turtles episode last week, I rewatched that. It just sounds like, oh, maybe this will come up. And I just remember him. He was like really crazy. Yeah, you know, I'm trying to get into an inter species relationship for a while. And you're like, yeah, thanks. They say something that is either sounds like conceptually or sexually. He's like, they're like, what if April was a turtle? And I think Donna Tello says either conceptually or sexually, that works for me. I'm pretty sure it's conceptually, but it does feel weird. And then you do a reverse cut. And it's just a bunch of seven year old boys just being like, what's going on? Why is this happening? Yeah. Because this was around the time they were doing the live tour. Yeah.

1:33:38So that's why like, yeah, like they were just at the height of their shit. Like, yeah, they were like, why am I having turtles on the show today? Oh, it's because Pizza Hut is doing massive campaign to get these people to go to the shows. So which the April was a turtle? Whoa. Oh, yeah. Oh, it works for me. You know, I'm. Oh, man, I'm in a crack myself up. I'm trying to talk her into an interspecies relationships for months now. Oh, man. And she won't do it. She can't hold her breath long enough. You know, it's a fuck to that man. Is they, you have their soundtrack? Do you dig it or what? Do you dig it? You don't dig it. Wow. What on the haters? It's your shit, his head looks like. Oh, man. Go. Get the creep on yourself, kid. Get the creep on yourself, kid. What's so special about winner? Hey, we'll think about it. He's a rat.

1:34:38And he talks and he's on his head to be ninja warriors. I mean, that's pretty special right there. He's got you in front of classes. I mean, what's so special about your dad? You know, he's very special. He's so funny. The kid's like, I don't know my dad. Oh, shit. Uh, fuck. God. What? We heard it. Should note though, it was fucked up that whole running in strutals because those motherfuckers didn't have their shells on. Right. They're just wearing fucking denim jackets and shit. And I remember at the tour being like, where the fuck are your shells, bro? You're just a fucking weird guy's in denim outfits. It's like frogs now. Yeah. It makes sense to the fucking music of that, the Ninja Turtle live show sucked. Hey, what did it mean? Well, we talking about kid. So special about your dad. I mean, I mean, he kind of hooked us up with an eight ball for this back. Like, what are we doing? I'm like, I'm like, cheap cocaine energy. Yeah, yeah. What's the special about your dad? For flexively is like what? You're talking to kids. You know what I mean? Like little little kids. Things are at the talks.

1:35:39You're not getting a argument with like a fucking baller or something. What the fuck, you know, kid? He's a fucking mutant, a fucking rat. Who taught us Ninja Warrior skills, dude? Fucking talking about it, dude. Fuck your dad. Would April being a turtle make you sexually aroused? Like Oprah. Oprah with the fuck. I mean, sometimes Oprah would be asking like crazy. Like she asked Michael Jackson if he was a virgin. He was like, what? Yeah, what? See, we would have no Z-way if it weren't for Oprah. That's true, did I mean? Again, she's breaking down. She tried to like out Nathan Lane when they were on their press tour for the birthday with him in Rob Williams. And he has said Rob and Williams totally, you know, came to his defense and like kind of shifted that interview. She would ask some like fucked up question. She did us Rodman. I have a very clear memory of her being like, why do you dress the way you do? What do you, hey? You know, she really would go there.

1:36:40And by there, we mean be a fucking bully asshole. Yeah. Straight to homophobia. Right at the time we call it, she'll go there. Homophobia. It's a prime matter. It's a Nathan Lane. Why are you gay? Oh, he was not out yet. So she was like, a lot of people are wondering kind of. And it was like in the middle of she like asked him a question about the movie and then like just like mid-strive, like change it to a question about whether he was gay or not. Thank God you got Rob and Williams there. Someone who's the fucking brain is lightning fast to just be like, oh, completely shift the conversation. She also tried to wipe Drew Breeze's birthmark off his face when he came on her show. She's like, come here. Somebody has a little, you have a little lipstick there. Oh, no, for real? For real. Oh, that's fucking wild. She didn't give a fuck. She's so confident. Does not. Come and get some schmutz on your face. It's a birthmark.

1:37:41It's what my face looks like. It's how I look, Oprah. Oh my gosh. Bridget, it's such a pleasure having you. Do you, I know you said you had some stuff built up from behind the bastards. Is there anything else that you wished? You had a chance to say about Oprah. This has been so comprehensive. I love talking about Oprah Winfrey. I would just say, I feel very good at it. Oh my God, it's a topic I can talk about a lot, obviously. I will say I have seen, she's having a bit of a resurgence on social media where people who are maybe younger, who don't know her, we know her, are almost trying to have these gotcha moments of like, here she is admitting that she used cocaine or something like that. And then that I will say, Oprah is a rare figure who I think really resists being flattened into a box on social media. Like social media we all know is like where, topics are really flattened and it's black and white.

1:38:42She is such a complex complicated figure that I really think the medium to discuss her is long form. I think that she really is, there's only a few people who are like this that really she resists that flattening that is so common place on social media. So if you're a younger person and you are not a scholar of Oprah, before you try to weigh in, make sure you like. Don't even try it, kid. I'm not even watching every episode. If you weren't there, you don't know, right? You weren't there, you don't know. You don't fucking, you weren't, yeah, exactly. You weren't in the trenches. That's a rainbow party. I had to have a conversation with my mom about whether or not I had heard of rainbow parties because of that fucking over episode. Like we weren't there. Y'all weren't there. She was causing problems. She must have created at least a handful of rainbow parties by doing that, by like having parents talk to their kids and their kids being like, well, I guess we gotta fucking do this. So I wasn't doing it, but it's a pretty good idea. Actually, where can we get blue lips? I'm leaving for Neon Green.

1:39:43Where can people find you, Bridget? Well, you can check out my book, Love That First Prompt, AI and the Future of Intimacy at loveatfirstprompt.com. You can follow me on Instagram at Bridget3NDC and you can check out my podcast. There are no girls on the internet. Amazing. Miles, where can people find you? You can find me everywhere at Miles of Grey. I'm talking about English football and European football on Ain't It Footy weekly with Jamel Johnson and Chris Martin. Check out Ain't It Footy there. And also 420 day fiance. Talking about 90 day fiance. All right, and I will be right back after this with the notebook dump. No, we're gonna talk about anything. I forgot to say, during this part, we'll be right back. Okay. All right, that was our Oprah conversation. As mentioned up top, we recorded this on September 11th. Never forget. I said she kind of disappeared from our culture. And on Wednesday, September 16th, the mere five days later,

1:40:44Oprah unleashed a coordinated three pronged attack on my credibility that is really my personal 9.11. She announced an upcoming multi-sensory event at the Las Vegas sphere, the Pentagon of Las Vegas, and then targeted the twin towers of New Age wisdom podcasts and J. Shetty and Mel Robbins. But yeah, I think Oprah was probably having the same feeling that I was entering this episode, which is, man, it's been a while since we heard from Oprah, but a lot of young people don't even know how massive she was. This was her forgot about Dre moment. And I feel like this episode is, like me releasing a podcast the day before the Chronic 2 came out speculating that Dr. Dre doesn't have anymore guns because he sold them all. So I apologize. I blew it. Also maybe Oprah has a mole inside the daily site, I said editorial infrastructure, impossible to know.

1:41:47But I did listen to the Mel Robbins podcast, and I gotta say, in the intro, Mel Robbins is not fucking around. I'm gonna read a couple quotes from the intro, knowing full well that you'll probably turn this episode off and go listen to Mel Robbins interview Oprah, given how she hipes this up. But you've already downloaded this one. We've got the numbers. You can't hurt me. Speaking about the Oprah conversation, you're about to listen to Mel Robbins says, and I quote, it's kind of hard to put into words what you're about to experience. There's absolutely no way that you can listen to this and not be forever changed. You're gonna hear something that will make you see your life differently. There are irrefutable truths in this conversation that will stay with you long after it ends. I'm so happy you get to experience this. Is this how her podcast always starts?

1:42:49I would have trouble if I had just painted the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, I would struggle to master that level of like unbridled confidence and enthusiasm for what I had just done. Anyways, how was I not going to listen to it after hearing that? I listened to the conversation between Mel Robbins and Oprah and it sounded to me like two drunk people talking. I don't think either of them are actually drunk. They're not slurring or anything. But they're doing this thing that I've noticed to drunk people do where they're very enthusiastically complementing one another. They get very adamant and excited about vague ideas that don't really make a ton of sense. Very excited about callbacks. I've noticed drunk people are your aha moment like you said earlier. Like I said earlier and then everybody's very excited. Anyways, look, some of Mel's enthusiasm is warranted.

1:43:50Oprah has an innate ability to speak about life in a way that sticks with you. And there's good advice in here, I will say. I came away with, they said, you always have the right to change your mind. And that's good advice. There's also terrible advice. They talk about how they are 10 gallon people, Oprah and Mel are 10 gallon people. And sometimes their problem is that they're trying to get too much love from people who are one pint people, which I googled that one pint is one 80th of 10 gallons. So it's like, if you don't get along with a loved one, it might be because they are a type of person who is one 80th as capable of love as you as best as I could figure it out. Anyways, this is all to say. What might have seemed like Oprah abandoned us for a moment.

1:44:54She was simply in the dark listening to Mel Robbins and Jay Shetty and getting stronger. So apologies for suggesting she dipped. She's back. And I think things are about to get very weird and crazy. One story we skipped over that gets at the luck thing. And I'll explain why I keep coming back to the luck thing. But I do think it has something to do. Oprah's unwillingness to believe that she has good luck or had good luck gets at why I also think things are about to get very weird in the Oprah story. So the Oprah Winfrey show became syndicated in 1986. They wanted a big celebrity guest for the first national episode, nationally televised episode. And they settled on Don Johnson. He's sex symbol height of Miami vice fame. And Oprah goes hard recruiting him. She's sending him cases of champagne, a special pair of rhinestone sunglasses

1:45:55that always get brought up in the reporting on this. And anyways, he rejects the offer. And at the time she's devastated and thinks it's unlucky. And now acknowledges it's very lucky because without a big name celebrity to interview, Oprah decides to focus the first show on everyday men and women, which is the template for future episodes. And so she's forced by circumstance into the format that differentiated her show from everything else that was on TV in a world where they get Don Johnson. Maybe that episode gets good ratings. And they think they have to get bigger and bigger stars after that, which is expensive and hard to produce. So instead, she got the cheap version that works right away by accident, which is all to say, to be as globe-stridingly successful as Oprah, the research for this episode convinced me that you need to be a generational talent, which she is. You also need to get extremely lucky, like 100 times.

1:46:59But when you're a millionaire and then a 100 millionaire and then eventually a billionaire, I feel like more and more shit just starts going right for you, especially in this country, in the United States. And it's easy for these very wealthy people in this country to just start expecting it. And the good fortune becomes built into the fabric of their life and takes on a momentum of its own. And it kind of becomes like this thing that allows you to feel like you've transcended the human condition. She talks about a lot, always feeling different and feeling less than. And she's really good at talking about that. She's really good at talking about a lot of these parts of the human condition. And in the Mel Robbins episode, her solution that she points to for dealing with that stuff is a lot of new age spirituality, which I'm not gonna focus on criticizing that.

1:48:00As I've gotten older, I'm more inclined to grant everyone their way of dealing with the human condition as long as it's not hurting others. Part of the human condition for a lot of people is that core feeling of inadequacy, very deep inside a lot of us, like an inception totem locked in a state telling us, we are not shit. I used to drink vodka in the morning to deal with that. So I'm not here to tell anyone they are stupid or wrong for the way they deal with that part, that suffering of the human condition. I will tell you that the vodka in the morning method did not work as a long-term solution for me. But I will say that for some people, it seems like the way they deal with that in this country, that feeling of being less than is success. Their vodka in the morning is succeeding. And in America, it seems like that works really well.

1:49:03And you can just keep getting more and more and more and more and more success until you're a billionaire and when you're famous and a billionaire, you never really have to learn the original lesson, which is that you're not greater than or less than anyone. You're actually the same as people, like the feeling of inadequacy doesn't need to be cured. It's what makes you human. And to me, I don't know, it feels like Oprah seems like she kind of yo-yo is back and forth between feeling and channeling everyday suffering of her audience and feeling like she's transcended that through success. And it feels like we're leaning in a transcendence direction. And as we've seen with other icons, the desire to transcend the human condition of success doesn't become more subtle as you get older and face death like nobody gets out of this alive.

1:50:04So I think we might be about to see a deeply weird chapter of the Oprah story. I will be watching. That's going to do it for this Oprah episode. Thanks to Bridget Todd, truly one of the greats to ever do it. Wonderful guest, best possible guest for this episode. Thanks to Miles, has always J.M. McNabb for the research, Brian the editor, for tying it all together. Also Robert and Sophie at Behind the Basters for the six part Oprah series, which was very helpful research for this one. Next week, we are covering another icon of the early 90s who's probably the biggest, what might have been nay, what would have been in modern pop culture history? We're covering Selena with Danny Fernandez and we will talk to y'all then. Bye. The Daily's Eye Guys is executive produced by Catherine Law. Co-produced by Victor Wright. Co-written by J.M. McNabb and edited and engineered

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