How a Hedge Fund Manager Picks Stocks (The Rules He Uses)

0:00Pattern recognition, even building that is a skill in and of itself, because you built a lot of pattern recognition in our previous roles. The question is, do you understand what you're investing? Because if you don't understand, you don't understand the risk. I'm a true believer. Market likes to make full of the greatest number of people. That's a line. I'm Shari. I'm Jean. I'm Imran. And we are the tiger sisters. We are your Wall Street and Silicon Valley big sisters. And we're a top 10 business podcast bringing late-night sister talk meets boardroom strategy. Today we're talking about how the next generation should approach investing and how anyone, not just millionaires and billionaires, but anyone, can apply these lessons to their own financial lives. And we're doing it with friend of the pod Imran Khan, who deploys hundreds of millions of dollars of capital as the founder of his hedge fund program asset management. And he's also my former boss at Snapchat, where he was the chief strategy officer. And

1:01also two-time tiger sisters podcast guest who welcome Imran. Wow. Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's a real honor. So Imran, everyone wants to invest like a professional. You are a professional full-time investor. So how do you identify good stocks? And do you have a formula or advice for new or non-professional investors? So I think one of the biggest change that happened in investment, actually in my lifetime, is democratization of knowledge. So I think if you look at 30 years ago, if you were in Wall Street, you would get one-on-one meetings with management team. You would get to go to conferences that nobody else would get invited. And you would can build great relationship with the companies. So if there is any news, you could call them. And that gave you understanding about businesses that an average investors didn't have. With the

2:06proliferation of internet, now all the information start becoming publicly available. And obviously with Reg FD, the companies have to file those information simultaneously to everybody. So they cannot make conversation with one after time. But also one of the most profound changes that happened is the proliferation of social media. So now, a lot of the founders and CEOs or senior business executives, they are all on X or Reddit or in other places. And they're debating about topics. And so in the past, if you're a professional investor, you would go to an user conference and you probably talk to five customers and you'd have some sense about what that business do. But now, because of X, you get to hear about companies' customers from the customers, but also the people who didn't like the product. And so that gives you a much holistic view. And I think this proliferation of internet and with AI will

3:10further commoditize the knowledge. And that commoditization of knowledge is actually gives a lot of power to masses. And so ultimately, you know, the first thing about investing is, do you know what you're investing in? Because the biggest mistake people make, even professional investors. And this is why there are many sectors. There's many things. I don't even touch it. The question is, do you understand what you're investing? Because if you don't understand, you don't understand the risk. And ultimately, investment is also pricing the risk. And so I think, you know, that profound changes that where everybody has access to same information, now it takes that everybody should have their own ideas or own investment and have to make the decision. So I think the first and foremost, what I would say, that look, every investor should have different style. What works for them? They have different investment objectives. But first and foremost, enough to understand what you're investing in, what's expected going on. So my first formula is, if you invest, try to learn about what you're

4:14investing in. Don't listen to somebody else. Be educated about it. Yeah. And so much of what we're learning today isn't from like textbooks. Like you said, a lot of it can be found in Reddit, can be found on X and other social media platforms. If someone is new to investing, how do they figure out what is fact and fiction when there's so much information out there now? How do they know what information to trust? Yeah, great question. So first and foremost, companies website is a great source, right? The company spent a lot of time building their investor relations. You know, I worked on, you know, Alibaba IPO, I worked on, I was a snap, we took Snap public, you know, companies spent hundreds of hours writing this boring legal documents called S1, 10K, 10Qs. They're boring reading, you know, they're definitely not exciting reading because a lot of lawyers involved, but they spend hundreds of hours putting together these documents. And so if you read those documents, if you take the time to read those boring documents, you will learn a lot about those businesses, you know, and legally they have to be accurate.

5:20Otherwise, you know, we have a bigger problem. So I think, you know, first and foremost, you should read those. And that should give you a lot of understanding about the business, listen to what the management teams are speaking. And, and you know, there's a lot of fact and fiction in social media. And I think that's where you have to have some intelligence to understand who to trust. And, you know, I actually do whenever I see something that questionable, I read the comments, you know, and then I try to verify from other sources if that's accurate or not. You know, I think one of the biggest thing that I think what's needed to be invested is be curious. Because if you're not curious, you're never going to be a good investor. You always have to ask one, not one question, you have to ask 10 questions. Why, you know, and, and so, so don't believe in anything. And it goes not about investment and don't believe anything. You read in social media, but ask the question, why, why, why, why? And, and if you keep digging through it, you will get a pretty good picture. Yeah. So I'm hearing from you. One, read the source material and understand it. To be curious and ask why five times, ask all

6:21these, you know, follow up questions. And then the third one is basically to apply critical thinking to all of these sort of sources that you're reading. Incredibly, you know, I'm a true believer. Market likes to make full of the greatest number of people. So anything that's a line, or anything that's consensus, you always should ask, remember that market likes to make full of the greatest number of people. So you always have to be very careful. Like everybody is saying that. Yeah. That means the risk is not pricing. So are you always contrarian then? No, you don't need to be always contrarian. You know, I think also to think about the timing of a contrarian, right? So, um, the consensus can be right for one year, two year, three year, four year. But at some point, consensus is going to break. So this is why it gets really tricky. And I hope I'm not frustrating the audience. But that if you are contrarian, you could be wrong for a very long period of time. I think people always looked at that when the housing crisis happened,

7:23I forgot the name of the movie. Oh, the big short. Big short. If you look at that gentleman, he was wrong for a long period of time, you know, before he was right. Or like Japanese bonds. Yeah. So, so, so, so I think contrarian for the sake of being contrarian is not the right approach either because you could be wrong for a long time. But the bottom line is, you know, by default, you know, market always trying to price what's, you know, consensus, right? Because that's what everybody is doing. And so when there is a non-consensus thing happens, that is the time you see the sharpest move of a stock, of a bond or equity. So any kind of investment, it could be art. It could be realistic. It doesn't matter. So when everybody tells you something, you know, that is the time you have to be the most fearful that something could go off because at that point, risk probably not pricing. That doesn't mean you have to take a contrarian bet. But at that point, you have to be most fearful. There's levels to it. We thought you were going to make investing just really simple.

8:28I'm sorry, I'm a debt. Let's take 10 seconds to be direct. Subscribing to this show actually matters. Yeah, because our content isn't just random. It's actually really well researched and it's infrastructure and strategy for ambitious people, especially women. If you value that, the easiest way to support us is to just subscribe. It takes two seconds to do and it signals that these are the types of conversations that deserve to grow. It also helps other people find our podcast. So whether you're listening on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or YouTube, please subscribe and follow. Thanks a no back to the show. So this next question is more about meme stocks. So there's a lot of chatter about them and retail traders these days. Do you think the market has become more speculative with Yolo and the rise of Robin Hood and retail traders? And is that a good thing or a bad thing? It's such a great question and I have a point of view. I think most people who are in my shoes will probably disagree with me. So I think market is always very speculative.

9:31As far as I remember last 25 years, market is always being very speculative because the bottom line is when you are buying anything, you are predicting something in future and by default predicting future is speculative. And so it is all a speculative. Now the if you look at the professional investors, they're incredibly speculative. Look, in 2008, we took down the entire US economy by speculating things who are quote unquote incredibly sophisticated professional CEOs and who made crap load of money. Nobody talked to them, talked to them, Yolo. Trading CDS at that time, it was Yolo. But because they are quote unquote elite people, we never, you know, they took hits, but we never talked, we never talked about Yolo as if because they're sophisticated. So so the whole idea is, you know, going back to what I said at the beginning, that we are saying democratization of content, democratization of knowledge

10:34because of and it started with people printing books because if you look back 500 years ago, the power was concentrated with a small group of people because these are the people had all the knowledge. And then the book came along and then the start, you know, that's what people hated Socrates, right? Because he was educating people, right? So as you start democratize the knowledge, you know, more and more people became empowered. And internet accelerated it, AI will further commoditize the knowledge. And and so now going back to what I said, that retail investors has the same information as a professional investment in investors. And a lot of the retail investors, they're very smart. They didn't get to financials, you know, Wall Street job because maybe they didn't want to do Wall Street job or maybe they didn't have background. Like when I first started in Wall Street, like a lot of people were from East Coast because they grew up in East Coast. How is all their parents worked in Wall Street or their uncle worked in Wall Street or the neighbor working Wall Street

11:35and they went to Wall Street. I never heard about Wall Street till I came to junior in college, you know, so a lot of people were like me, they never heard about it. And so so they didn't have the knowledge, they didn't have the lesson, they never came. But now with a lot of smart people has the same information, same skill set of analyzing a business either they took some accounting class or they took some finance class, same skill set of analyzing a lot of technology companies because a lot of young Robin Hood crowd work in tech companies, they are very tech savvy, they understand tech better even if they didn't work on it. So they actually have a very deep understanding about the business and they're actually challenging status quo. And so and and and and and the reality is, you know, it's not right, they're always right or they're always wrong. They're they've been wrong on many stock, they've been right on many stock, you know, if you're right 51% of the time, you're a genius in a stock market, right? So so so I think, you know, but but they've been right few times in some great way and and and and and they've been wrong on a few times too. So but I

12:40think, you know, so I think this demeaning retail investors, I think it's on it's not fair, you know, I'll give you one more example, if you look at some of the biggest hedge funds in the United in the Wall Street in the United States. And if you look at their 13F, so 13F is a document that every major hedge funds have to file at the end of every quarter, disclosing what stocks they own, you will see there's a huge overlap of similar stock they own. So there's a group thinking they're going on there too. So I quote unquote professional investors. So so I think, you know, so I don't think the market is more dangerous. I don't think market is more speculative. It's a new group of investors who are coming in. We're seeing pretty significant transfer of wealth is happening from baby boomers, you know, to to to younger generations and and they're taking because they have a lot of information, they're taking more control of their own financial decisions. And and I don't really don't believe it's more speculative than bunch of hedge fund managers doing or what in in in 2008, a lot of investors did.

13:46Hmm. A little bit contrary and I think it's fair. Yeah. I like that. Contrary in with the right timing. Yes, there you go. Hey, Sheree, remember when we first started Sister's Matcha? Imagine this. Gina and I are in a match of farm and hour and a half outside of Kyoto. We're in the countryside. We're picking matcha leaves, working and living on this Japanese green tea farm. Oh my god, it was like a freaking dream, but I feel like when that dream turned into a reality when it actually became a real business in my mind was when we set up our Shopify and we even had a countdown to when our Shopify storefront would actually launch. I truly think Shopify is the best place to start your business because on Shopify, you own everything. You own your storefront, you own your relationship with your customers and you own the entire community that you build. When someone discovers Sister's Matcha and actually makes a purchase, that relationship feels extremely personal. Oh, I mean literally, Sister's Matcha is a family-owned brand in business.

14:49And we trust Shopify with all of the backend stuff so that we can focus on what's important to us, which is building our community and communicating with our customers and bringing the best matcha in the world to you. So if you've ever thought of starting something on your own, build something that you love. Get started today at Shopify.com slash Tiger Sisters. All right, Imran, it's 2025. We have to ask you a question about AI. Okay, sure. It's in bulk. Yeah. So how is AI changing investing and how are you personally adopting it and using it as part of your business? So AI is going back to the same point that AI is commoditizing the knowledge. So now you can use AI too to read those boring documents. Yeah, I was thinking that you just put those documents into a chat GPT and get a summary. You get a summary of it, but I also encourage still read the documents because a lot of the times

15:51things are hidden on the finer line item that I don't think chat GPT or XAI is good enough to figure this out. But I think it could be really good to compare documents. One of my favorite thing is to compare documents. Because these guys are spending hundreds of hours writing a document. We know that. So if suddenly one year to the next year of the documents, language changing, you should take notice of it. Why they suddenly changing the document, language. And sometimes there's a subtle changes from may to will. So what prompt do you use? What do you do? So you can upload both documents and we can do what doc, AI is will be faster. So to compare documents, it's a very good way to say that why did the change from may to, it may happen to, it will happen. There's a big difference to it. So things like that, or you can see, you can compare if there's a new data point that dropped in. So that's a great way

16:56to learn what changing. So my advice to everybody, always read the first document. And then after read the first document every year, you can just compare documents. Every quarter, you can just compare documents. Because then you can just pick up the incremental changes. But at first, you have to put the time in to learn what's going on. The other thing is it's also a very good way to learn about a business, like get the basic knowledge about the business, right? You know, I actually learned, I'm very interested about wine two years ago. And I learned everything about wine using chat GPT. And then obviously I went got better at it, but but the basic you can learn. And then you had to do primary research. Then you have to do the primary. So yeah, next time, next time we'll bring wine here, make the podcast more fun. If I get invited for the first time. So so that's I think is really really interesting. You know, but the other thing is like you can use AI to understand sentiment. You know, so one of the things that I'm really interested is understanding about what sentiment changes in a business. You know, both, you know,

18:01because as people are talking about different social media or different, you know, sub-stack and and and and research, you know, you can you can you just put them and try to understand how whether people's sentiment is changing in a positive or negative direction. That's a good way to understand because you know, the stock market is a voting machine, as Warren Buffett likes to say, right? That so so understanding the which weather sentiment is changing is also a great way to understand consensus. So do you go to like the reddit page of the company and just like copy all the comments pasted in chat GPT. And you're like, what is the sentiment and how has it changed from the previous year or something? Yeah, you can do that. And long term, I would like to build tools. Yeah. That can automate those things. We're not there yet, but yes. I like this. This is very tactical advice. Yeah. Well, I think it's very tactical. And also, I think it also it goes to show that it takes some work to like either read the boring documents yourself because there's important footnotes or even just putting into chat GPT. Like I'm thinking back to myself. I'm like, what I even do that, but like I can see how that is a massive differentiator

19:04because you just have so much more information and more data points that you're working with. And like these companies spend so much time writing it. So like, it's definitely worth reading. It's 100%. You know, like, I think I'll tell you what you shouldn't do. You shouldn't buy a stock because somebody asked you to buy a stock. Yeah. That's, you know, because for a variety of reason, if that person is has a perfect crystal ball, they might have a different volatility pain threshold. They might have different time horizon. None of those things you know, right? So, so, so I think, you know, should never listen to someone else to make a decision. You should make your own decision. And for that, you have to do the work. Second, you have to really like what you do. If you don't like investing and trying to do be an investor, probably not the best is ever time, then you can just do, you know, go to a professional. But as long if you're interested about the business, I think through law and through technology changes, now everybody has the same information. So,

20:08and they're all available. Spend the time learning and and and and make your own decisions. That's very encouraging. I actually think. So, Shari, how do you think about your checkings and savings account? Because for me, checkings is money that I need to use in the next three to four months. And then savings is everything after that, like long term. And because of that, I feel like most of us don't think about the interest that we could be earning on those accounts. Mm-hmm. Well, the problem is most banks give you next to nothing, like a fraction of a percent. And all the while, they're making money off of your deposits. So, that's where today's sponsor, SoFi, comes in. When you open a SoFi Checkings and Savings account and set up direct deposit, you actually earn a competitive APY. And there are no account fees. And that means your money isn't just sitting there. It means it's working. Right. That's the part most people miss. Having a bank work for you. We think about earning money, but not about the money in our bank account. When in reality, every dollar you earn an interest can earn more interest and over time that growth really

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22:09hey, look at this company. It's only trading at 10 times speed. So this is really cheap. You should buy and sometimes, you know, you fall for it. It's like, oh, this stock is cheap. So why don't I buy it? But the reality is, if you think about it, anybody can do a PE calculation, right? It's look at the price. You look at the earnings. You do a PE calculation. Anybody in Wall Street can do it. Anybody with a finance degree. Both of you have a business school degree from grade schools. You can do it. So you are not doing something that nobody else is doing. So if you're just buying the stock because it's cheap, then like you're not doing anything incremental, right? So the stock is cheap because clearly market things about something going wrong with that business. You know, and that's where the stock is cheap. So what the question you really have to ask yourself, why this is stock is cheap? What is the fear? So you have to do the work to understand there's got to be a fear that the stock is cheap. And if the stock is trading at the same

23:11vine, if a stock is very, very expensive, it's a really bad idea to go shut the stock just because of expensive. Because again, anybody can do a PE calculation. So if a stock is very expensive, market is telling you something. So what I think the next question going back to asking why, why is this stock cheap? Why does the stock is expensive? You have to ask this question. Once you understand why it is, then you really have done the season. Is this true or not true? Is this going to happen or not? Is this going, is this consensus? And if this consensus, it going back, market likes to make full of the greatest number of people. So if a consensus is wrong, it's a great time to buy a stock. And you will probably generate incredible return. But sometimes consensus is right. And or sometimes consensus is going to be right for a long period of time. And so you really need to understand that. So that's like one big mistake I made. And now I just

24:14don't, to me, the valuation should be the last stock. Because valuation at that point will tell you how much risk is priced into the stock. And so you can look at a company and say, oh, everything is going great. And but it's trading at an incredible multiple. That means all the good news, most likely priced it. So any kind of mistake, it will going to get hit hard. The second is actually what I just told earlier, never buy stock listening to someone else, do your own work. Because the reality is, again, if you listen to, in primarily in my business, right, we have all these banks call us and said, hey, buy this stock, buy that stock. And sometimes you fall for the track. I said, oh, this guy's so convex, convincing is great. And you, you know, potentially sometimes you might have a mistake of triggering too early without understanding everything. And that's those never work out. So my two big advice would be ask a lot of questions,

25:19trying to go deep into it and understand why it's trading, why it's trading. And then the second is, you know, do your own work. I feel like those two are really related as well. It's like when you see a stock is cheap, I want to understand why it's cheap. And also what is the in reading, you know, a lot of the source material, what are, what's the mission vision, where do they want to go, and how are they going to get out of this hole? It's doing a lot more like a third layer pass to better understand. Yeah, I think one of the most important thing to understand when, and it's true in every point of life, when people give you your money, they give you their trust. So when an investor, the entire US capital market is built on trust, right? And because think about it, if you read those documents, nobody really goes check what's really like, yeah, they're auditor, they're sign off, but it's not like SCC is investigating every line item is right, you know, but there has been built on this trust that, hey, anything you're disclosed is this accurate,

26:22you are not hiding anything, any kind of material information, you are not omitting any material information, your auditors have done a good job. So you're trusting a lot of people when you're buying an equity. So the entire US capital market, and this is actually one of the reasons the America has been very successful, I think it's the strong capital market of the US, because our capital market was able to support businesses that couldn't be support. Look, in a lot of Chinese companies, they had to come to the US to raise money. We funded your Chinese technology innovation in 1990s and 2010, nobody talks about it, right? Companies like Alibaba, companies like Tencent, companies like that would not be without American dollars supporting those businesses, you know, so we supported that, and you Chinese capital market didn't support them, you know, and same thing true for other countries, and so our capital market helped us support businesses, because they, one of the greatest thing about America that is actually okay with failure, and as long you put the right effort, you know, but it's built on trust. So as long you are

27:28trusted, but you failed, people are fine. So I think is that, so when people give you money, they give you the trust. So the moment you break trust, things fall apart. So if a stock is really, really cheap, you have to ask two things. One is that something fundamentally wrong with the business, you know, that broke the trust, you know, either management did something, or is the company has doing something that broke the trust, and that's really, really important to understand the trust factor, and that's really drive the value of the business, because the thing is that if the company, people can trust the business, trust the predictability of the business, they're willing to pay more money, and the multiple will expand. So the last question we have on legacy and next gen is that for someone who's listening or watching today, who feels investing is intimidating or inaccessible. What is one really simple and bold step they could take tomorrow to overcome that fear and start investing? Start small. Okay. You know, if you have a hundred dollars, and you don't,

28:38you're intimidated by investing, invest five dollars. You know, start small. I think again, going back to the accessibility of the investment, now you can do fractional share trade in Robinhood. I believe you can do it, but you can do somewhere. So I think what it does that the barriers to investing has been coming down for last third, at least in my career, dramatically. And I would never be intimidated by investment, because if you're intimidated, do small amount. Try it out. You know, put two percent, three percent, five percent. You can do five dollars, see one. But only do as long as you're curious, because I think the one of the intimidation, you can overcome it. But if you don't have the curiosity, you don't like investment, it doesn't excites you. No need to do it. And I think it's true for anything in life. Do things that excites you. You know, if you wake up in the morning, it doesn't excite you, it doesn't entertain you,

29:40it doesn't give you, you know, motivated no reason to do it. Intimidation, you should never give up anything because of fear if you're interested in something. You know, the way to avoid the fear, try a little, try, try starts like if you want, like I talk to a lot of athletes, right? Like people who do marathon, they don't go run marathon on the first day. They start small, you know, do it a little bit, you know, and they may not never run marathon, but you know, you're going to do more. So, so the idea is, you know, you got to take baby steps, try something, don't go try to put all your money investing in one day. This is actually one of the most amazing thing about investing that I learned. And again, I think talking about social equality is that I'll talk about a very successful investors, incredibly successful. He's probably two years older than me. I talked about it. I never knew about Wall Street till junior year. And he came from an East Coast investment family. So grew up with investing, you know, right after graduating from college when I was trying

30:44to figure out my life doing, you know, investment banking and other things, you know, he went to work for a well known hedge fund manager, you know, very, very early on, you know, so by the time I was talking to him 10 years after, he had 15, 20 years of experience about the market. He has gone through the cycle. So, you know, it's really interesting. It's like the pattern recognition gets so much better as you do it longer and longer and longer. You know, like I've seen that with myself, right? Because you see a thing and you like, oh, I've seen this kind of story five years ago. I've seen this story with somebody else 10 years ago. This was a similar situation. So you start recognizing patterns. Yeah. And as you start recognizing patterns or you connect the doc, you get better and better at it. So investing is one of the many things in life that longer you do better you get it. Yeah. I feel there's so much to unpack there because pattern recognition, even building that is a skill in and of itself. Yes. Because once you build that as a skill, you can actually apply it

31:45across a lot of different verticals. So like, I think one of the reasons why we've been able to build tiger sisters as quickly as we have over the last year is because we've built a lot of pattern recognition in our previous roles. And so like, being able to take things that we learned even in completely different industries and apply it to this totally different industry and totally, you know, new world to us is something that I think people don't realize is really powerful. Yeah. It's a pattern recognition. You know, it's very important in relationships. It's really, you know, a lot of times, you know, that if you don't know anything, you don't know what to expect. So the pattern recognition is really, really critical. So the reason I was saying that start small, even if you are really enthusiastic because you don't want to put all your chips right away before you start recognizing all these patterns. So to me would be start small, build your investment muscle, you know, start figuring out the pattern recognition. Also,

32:47it will also tell you is your pain tolerance. And again, it's true for everything in life. Nobody I know ever became very, very successful for a long period of time who doesn't have a very strong pain tolerance. Because if you invest money, you will lose money. And that's painful. But a lot of people don't have that pain tolerance. But it's true for athletes. It's true for, you know, if you found a business. And so, so you really have, I've seen so many people when they lose money, they just get so the cancers can't talk. You know, it impacts the life. It's like so many hedge fund managers have seen. It's impacts their life. It's the impact their relationship with their wife. Like it's a complete mess. And these people should never come to investing, you know, because it's miserable life for them. And so, so I think what you need to do is, you know, like make sure before you fully dive into it, one, you build this pattern recognition skill set. And second, you learn where your pain points are. And can you can you can you survive through this pain point, you know, because when you are pain, you cannot take the pain, you make mistakes.

33:52And do all the above by by doing small experiments that start small starting small. Yeah, you know, and listen, I failed to do that with my children because they haven't shown interest at least as of now. But if you if parents are listening, if your young kids try to get them interested early, start with the fake money or whatever, you know, but more longer, they will do better. They will get. We want to write a book. We want to write several books, but one of them we want it to be a children's book. Maybe it'll be a personal finance book for children. Right. I mean, co-written with Imran. No, I think the financial sophistication is very important, right? And because then you can control a lot of things, you know, not only just investing, but also how to manage your money and things like that. Like a lot of people, you know, like, you know, I think it's much easier to ruin your asset than earning,

34:54you know, like it's very, you can lose a lot of money very fast, you know, so the financial discipline is very, very important. I think that's it for our questions. We'll move on to our our segments. Our final wrap-up segment. Okay. Okay. I'm scared now. Don't be scared. No. Okay, let's take the first question. What's the silly superstition you like anyway? Oh, that's nice. That's so sweet. Are you superstitious? I am somewhat superstitious. You know, like there are some stocks I can never make money, there's some companies I always make money. And the things that I can't make money, sometimes I'm like, you know, I just, let's not even bother. Life is too short. No, I'm a bit superstitious. You know, I like it's completely not accurate, but you know, sometimes you left tight twitch, you know, it's considered bad. So sometimes I get nervous if I left out of the same team's right tight twitch. It's good. I know. So sometimes if my right tight twitch, I get happy.

35:59So it's by and then sell. That's why I don't do that investment that way, but you know, my mom is pretty superstitious. So all right, wild one. Okay. I'm nervous about the wild one. What travel I'm creating? Have you ever broken something on purpose? No, I'm boring. Give me another one. A different wild one. They'll find my life is pretty boring. He broke a company. I'm very rule breaker. By shorting them. Just kidding. You don't do shorting. Actually, I have a very funny story to say. That'll only get me to. Okay, I'm actually talk talk about because this is what is this one to say? What part of yourself is borrowed from someone else? That's too deep for me. So have you broken something? I'm going to give a snap story example. That's that might get

37:00into me trouble. Okay, hopefully everyone doesn't listen to it. So do me repeat that question. Have you broken something on purpose, right? Have you broken something on purpose? Yeah, so I think, you know, early days, as you know, I was a snapchat, early days of snapchat advertising, there are a lot of pushback about a lot of debate, how to say pushback, about what snap advertising should look like, you know, and who are the people should be allowed on advertising on snap? Because one of the concerns was there are a lot of direct response advertisers, you know, are bad for the user experience. And, you know, we don't want like people, you know, advertising mortgage or things like that. And I was in charge of building the advertising business, you know, along with my colleagues. And we wanted to, we wanted to bring all sorts of

38:01advertisers so that we can really understand our algorithm and testing and things like that. And then there are some people, you know, would see those advertisements and they would freak out and they would create this email chain and mortgage debate. So we decided to basically break our advertising algorithm in states or cities that were all the snap employees were. So they can't see that. And so some ad would not show up in New York or Venice or or places like that and only would be showing in where there was no snap employees so that we're not having this internal debate, you know, because we were moving fast and trying to figure out, you know, what's the best ad algorithm stack to build? And you wanted to have as many advertisers come into the platform because so that you can show the right ad to the right person or you tested in a different country. Sometimes you don't need to dog food to your own ads or your own

39:04products. Sometimes you do. Sometimes you don't. He really said what doesn't know can't hurt them. Awesome. Thank you so much everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for talking with us. All right.