Genre Splicing Lessons From Rick Remender

0:00Hey everybody welcome back time again for word balloon the comment for conversation show John Sutris here happy to welcome Rick Remender back to word balloon. It's been a long long time But we're gonna talk a lot about hammer fist and escape and Sacrificers and I'll tell you it not only that but I really have to go back because Rick and I have been talking at least for 19 years maybe 20 but great opportunity to catch up and also look back at some things as well things like the deadly class TV show His time at Marvel what he learned from it good and bad and I really love this conversation It was great to catch up again with him So I think you are the fortunate ones to enjoy this conversation Rick Remender today on word balloon Coming soon a new documentary from the people who brought you the legend of Kingdom come Bill Sinkovich that Polish guy He summons the remarkable life groundbreaking career and dazzling artwork of one of comics most influential creators

1:00featuring observations from luminaries like Jim Lee Kevin Smith Dennis Cowan and many others Coming soon Bill Sinkovich that Polish guy If you like word balloon and want to support the conversation join the League of word balloon list is today patreon.com slash word balloon for just three bucks a month you get access to the monthly word balloon Digital magazine where I'll give you interviews transcripts plus the word balloon book club Brian Benison myself With the League we all get together on a Zoom call to talk about a graphic novel your support helps keep word balloon Independent and brings you even closer to the conversation join us today patreon.com slash word balloon Thank you for your support League of word balloon listeners It has been forever and I sort of blame myself for this but it's wonderful to welcome Rick Remender Back to word balloon. It's been far too long. I meant great to see you. It's good to see you John Congratulations on John giant generator as I was saying before giant generator to make sure that it was that's how we pronounce it

2:05And yes with a pinky up while you're having your tea. Yes, tour, but really Rick way to go man seriously You keep cracking out these amazing books. I'm so glad that you're getting the artist that you're getting and And hey man, you're carving your own path. Well, and I mean back in the day our first conversations revolved around Fear agent and a lot of your pre DC and Marvel stuff night Mary and the pirate books see of Oh, yes, you read yes, you read. Thank you. Thank you, but really man. No, honestly, where did go really? I'm throw the things you're going as great as they are for you Thanks John. I appreciate that. Yeah, it keeps me indoors and Safe off the streets. I Have stopped you know, I don't my gang activity is really gone It's not zero because I still have to represent my set and I still have to get out there and I have to do you know You got to show up occasionally or else they they kick you out

3:08Well, thank you for my insurance Thank you for not wearing your do rag on the With your colors to represent your your gang your thug life, but speaking of thug life Let's get right in a hammer fist you and Steve Epting Thank you for sending me the first two issues man great stuff I am always there for anything that Steve does and the perfect guy for a perfect book and Really really fun and interesting Let people give people the the 10 cent elevator pitch for a hammer fist But I mean, it's it's a Sort of a spiritual merging of the film noir hard boiled crime Sort of imagining the Michael Madsen character from reservoir dogs as A bank heist opens the door to an unexpected turn that lands him in a I'm

4:09I haven't revealed it in the book yet. So we're still being a little tight lift But I just say you know, totally it's very similar to evil dead two In that the one then the chocolate in the peanut butter. I like to you know try to take various chocolates and peanut Butters that have not been mixed and say what does this taste like and Fortunately, I get to have a brilliant art team and Steve Epting and Mad Hollings worth execute so No matter how crazy it is it looks good Well and Gene splicing is kind of your Your label or your your your genre oh well and mixing Genre splicer yeah I like it right next to great endorsement which was my Overlast Christmas we were watching alone Where they drop people off in the in the wilderness to see how long they can survive and my son is A little bored and I'm like it's on you know, it's like what it's a dopamine hit when these poor bastards catch a fish

5:13Let's enjoy it But each one of them talk about how their father was this great outdoorsman You know, I'm here for my dad. He was a great outdoorsman and after about the 15th one of those my son turns Because my dad's a great endorsement and so that's been that's been my title and what I use on my on my business um cards if I had a business card I don't know Well, um really the whole giant generator thing um This is great, man. Like do you find that your community is following you from book to book? Yeah, I mean, I think that's one of the really fortunate things about doing things the way I have is I don't chase trends or pay much attention to the rest of the industry I do what what feels right to me and that normally attracts People who had a similar thirst There's a a bell and Sebastian song where and I'm going back 25 years ago. I wrote the lyrics down Nobody writes them like they used to so it may as well be me and I was always inspired me

6:16It's like oh, yeah, well you could bitch in moan about I want more of this or why don't they do that or you can do it and so In doing that I've collected a you know a really loyal fan base of wonderful people who care about reading comics more than Slabbing them they care about talking about them my letters pages have been robust You know going back 25 years now, so I feel very fortunate in that night That was always kind of the dream is do you do what you want do it the way you want? And hopefully along the way gather enough support that you can keep doing it That's excellent and finding The right the right artists for the right project. I mean again Long history with with wonderful collaborators and opting in Hollingsworth on this certainly no exception um, you know to I don't know beyond the straight-up crime that I've always an espionage that I've always associated Steve with um, you know was this you know like yet did no problem, you know, he's like oh cool. Let's do it

7:18Well um The development of it I knew the germs of the idea and Stephen I talked about doing a book back in 2020 and I don't even know if it was this book. I think that um We had talked about a couple of other things And I I don't think I approached him specifically for hammer fists uh probably three years ago um and I had done some development on it I had the ideas I had I had cooked up. I've been working on a couple of different variations of it and had the you know general idea kind of co-cooked it and I threw it at him and he yeah he immediately gravitated and was very excited about it But really that it you know The thing doesn't take shape until we work together and the development of his art and then I start rewriting based on kind of where he's You know heading with designs and so it's not my book. It's our book all these books are coined by the artists And the DNA of both of us uh is is you know a parent all over and so

8:23um That's always When I get asked how do you keep working with just nothing but wonderful artists you know As it as an artist and a writer and somebody who's done every job in the industries that I've gone through from film television video games comic books It's really just a human understanding of what drives somebody to make something and you know So And getting into it with Steve that the the germs the sort of noir and the horror um Done it a way that At least I hadn't seen. I'm sure You know, there's somebody out there who could probably throw a comp out like it's been done 12 times and I'm like I didn't remember Uh, but yeah, and so he locked in and you know, we spent a year and a half developing Doing model sheets and character sheets and outlines every written the outline. I've got all the whole series I've rewritten it eight or nine times and Anyway, so it's just one of those things where there's always anxiety before it comes out

9:23But knowing what Stephen Matt had done the page Having such wonderful collaborators on the books. I always just go well You know, I do my best. I re-roadered a hundred times. I spent years developing it. I love it Uh, and if that's not enough, it's at least pretty to look at No question it is and uh, I would tell people if they don't know what to expect and I mean this as a compliment That it certainly starts with a very familiar vibe to criminal fans that like with brew baker and um and and Sean are doing Uh, with their stuff and of course, you know, Ed had his collaboration too with happening on that velvet series So I think it starts there and then again, it takes that gene splicing sort of left turn and we're not we're not gansus anymore in a good way um Yeah, I I like it and I think uh, I think people are gonna be very excited about it. So

10:23I when is it when does it start? It's the it launched last week. We've already sold out very one sold out of 55,000 copies and add up boy sold another 8,000 of the second printing or something Steve did up a new painted cover. It's doing game busters. So um Yeah, and I mean I had you know, what was interesting. I had been reading some James L Roy um and some cormic McCarthy And then I had finally got around to reading all of the uh, Darwin cook interpretation of Richard Stark's Parker And those were the germs of like, you know, I had done that I had done kind of a modern as ugly as you can make it Crime with last days of American crime Going back 15 years ago and I hadn't really touched on that since and and it was really the James L Roy that I was like, okay Um, the American tabloid stuff made me want to try a character In that in that strike zone and you know, I think that uh

11:26Trying to then merge that with some of the supernatural elements And you know, we're we're we're well ahead. I'm working on issues 7 and 8 right now It's one of those things that starts off as a challenge that eats up weeks as the voices like yeah, but he just saw this And what would you know, what would how would James L Roy or how would you know, Richard Stark handle that? It wouldn't still be the same there has to be even with the coolest coolest cucumber criminal There has to be something a little different And that's been the most fun is taking that that Tonal approach to voice But in a setting that is so We're so in a custom to sing Mike Den very very meeting potatoes kind of guy. I appreciate what he said about comparing to Michael Matson and you know Things like not only a reservoir dogs, but vengeance unlimited. I remember that brief television show that he had back in the day

12:26But yeah, it's uh No, man, you're right. It's put thropping a guy like that into this weird situation is uh pretty cool I like it. I am enjoying it man. I know excited What um, you know, I'm really Rick when you when when you started doing um That that era of image Where things were running and they and sometimes they ran beyond 20 issues or whatever um I would ask guys like Nick Spencer with morning glories and and other and other books like that like when they were in that middle period And it didn't seem like we were close to the end Given how many years now that you've been doing your independent thing do you do sense a rhythm? Are you looking at Circulation of all right numbers are a little down. I got to wrap this up or do you have a set Uh goal like for instance for sacrifices you went like I think 21 issues. I want to say um

13:28How do you approach it? Yeah, well in 20s different I think once I have I'm I'm sort of famously incapable of doing real estate You know acknowledgement because I'll get into a chapter of a story that I had bullied it as you know eight pages And I'll realize that it's rich and that there's so much in there that if the car speeds past it I'm doing the story of disservice And other times I'll hit a beat where I'm like that's not a full issue. That's like eight pages And even after nearly 30 years of putting together comic books my brain still never Can know that because once I get in Whatever I'm bringing to it and whatever I find there And inevitably sort of tells me how long it'll be so what I've gotten in the habit of doing is Just launching the book I have an outline um, I have a general idea of where it's headed There's books where It goes longer than it's anticipated and in books where it goes it goes less

14:28I have been traditionally very Fiery agent taught me a lesson in In faith in myself and that those sales were You know those single issues I think Most of them sold around you know four thousand copies Um, so it was a it was a labor of love that I never made any money on But I had written this outline and I had this story in my mind and um, I loved it And so even though the financial the financials didn't make a tremendous amount of sense and I remember numerous retailers pulling me aside saying that you know nobody wants this this 50 sci-fi retro thing you're doing Nobody this is not gonna fly And I was like yeah, I just think that you're wrong and I think that science fiction and comics I think there can be a resurgence. I think that the EC model of genre shows that there is an appetite for this stuff And so I think that the you know same with strange girl. I think that both those

15:31Selling around three four thousand copies an issue But I had a story and I had written these stories and so it was a matter of finding away every issue was a new challenge Get somebody to do layouts get somebody to do inks get somebody to draw face You know beg somebody for a cover Ink it myself for a couple of issues coloring some of the stuff myself You know But the lesson there was that if you give something love it will find friends and when fear agent was completed and the story was done And you have to you know imagine I was writing the 32nd issue of that living in abject poverty And just doing it and I spent three four weeks on it to make sure that it was as emotional as possible and It ends on one of my favorite Mark Twain quotes and and came from my father who was really sick at the time and all these emotional things that go into it You really have to do it for yourself You have to see it to the conclusion that you see it and eventually this thing that nobody wanted and nobody bought and nobody wants these things

16:33It one day the uptick happened and there was a convergence and Mm-hmm. It was around the time. I just couldn't I just begged Mike Richardson I said just let me do these oversized hard covers all this work deserves it and You know you did not want to do it Scott Ali flat out turn it down. No, no, no And at some point I just badgered Mike long enough to say do a print run Just do run and get it out there in this nice format and it was on the New York Times best seller list for a couple months And it blew up and that was a really interesting lesson and just trusting your own intuition and letting the story be what the story needs to be independent of You know the industry chat true trends Let's stand at for a minute Rick because um Before we get to the other books that are currently going and I'll come back even to Sacrifices, but um When you know you you uh you made your splash image

17:33Marvel became aware of you you came over to marvel you're doing Punisher War Journal with fraction You started you know co-writing and a lot of a lot of people that would join a marvel or a DC We kind of have that kind of godfather approach not protégé, but you know what I mean someone so many and and this is my characterization You tell me differently, but it seemed like to get you used to The way things are done with marvel certainly mad had that with brew Baker when he was doing x-men and stuff But um first of all It's an advocacy, you know like Matt that was an advocate and he had already He had already had success there and so him bringing me into to be his his Uh, successor on the on the Punisher was it's an advocate You know and matt always said this is you know, it's an the advocacy thing is sort of how these things trickle down And and that transfer happens where people can help their friends and you know in that case um, you know Kirkman uh, you know help get me going and image and introduced me to Eric where I became pals with and

18:39Matt really did a wonderful, you know thing for me Helping me I get that job at a point in time where babies were emerging from my wife And money was tight Um, I understand uh, so so how do you like what good things came from the marvel experience And if you don't mind I'd be curious to know why you you chose to uh leave when you did I mean you were you would you know you were doing x-men and everything and x-factor and as I recall and uh Neither of those books john, but thanks for your research. I know you're in the x-men family. Don't be all right Thank you for your continued reading of nothing that I do I why haven't I done your stupid podcast in eight years exactly this is I believe You're gonna ask me next how how I approached writing Batman in the absolute line I don't know um john I think you know I think john we're grown we're let's we're grown men. It doesn't matter. I'm completely kidding Just couldn't care less. I am joking with you. Yeah, um

19:43I was I had written a number of x books and I look going back to the the question what did best yeah, bed broad Uh, put a lot of yeah, I mean just to your observations of marvel Good things that you took from the experience and and I'll really if you don't mind to you know why you left Well, uh, the good things I think that there was a real um progression in my writing based on The amount of work that I had to take on to support my growing family and um Just the pure tonnage of writing I think that I you know I equate writing to falling down an infinite well of possibilities And every time you fall down the well and you choose different roads and put things together different ways Every new every new

20:45Chemical iteration concoction teaches you something about this works this doesn't um If you're not careful that can calcify you into a caricature of yourself Um, so it's also trying to remain fresh go into the parts of the tunnel you haven't been before Feel the fear of not knowing what you're doing, but you still have the lessons every fall From yes-no yes-no yes-no yes-no and it always came back to you know that was uh there was a a lot of interesting Being given things that were seen as 90s relics, which is what marvel did When I was there was you know take take these relics of the 90s Which are not things that I was even really a fan of that much um, you know Punisher Deadpool venom these aren't things that I grew up in the 80s so for me I I wanted I wanted the traditional things I grew up as a kid on and so The challenge was a um

21:47In in in writing things that weren't necessarily in my wheelhouse and finding ways to do it where uh It was still true to my sensibility and that there was something to be said about the world Something to be said about Myself something I wanted to write about myself through these characters and and and an artistic approach Something visual that hadn't been done in that book or hopefully ever before And I think that that that um I obviously been doing that with with Strange girl fear agent and all the various Creator-owned books prior to marvel, but this was a time where I think I really had such a ton of writing that it That clicked very much and I I realized there was a job that I didn't want That I um I took Because I was I poo-pooed it. I said oh well, this is not for me You know, this is I don't want this uh this job

22:49And I said look, you know if you're too good for something or you think you're too good for it um chances are You may not be and there's always a sort of like in Inherit there's like a there's like an internal conflict it To always make sure that you're beating up your your own ego and never buying into any sort of sense of self-inflation And so I took the job Um and I said to myself if you can't write this at an a plus level and make people fall in love with this Even though the the the germs of it may seem Inauthentic they may seem like they were Committee thinking it may seem like all those things But if you can't take it and make it a plus then you're not an a plus writer And so I took the job and I worked myself to death on that and I think that the sort of That approach also taught me a number of things in regards to um

23:53approaching any of these things with humility and uh just You know A work ethic to make sure that no matter where it stood because at the time You know, it was I don't think it's much of a secret that that I was not what Marvel was banking on and that's okay They they They even back in those days what they made little clubs, you know like where are the architects and where the pretty where the sweet boys And nobody else is no those points don't matter And you know that can really feel like you're being shit on by a company It's because it is mainly you know it is but you're not a young guy You weren't a young gun you weren't an architect I was none of that bullshit um But that and it would have set me a little bit before I'd look at the photos They made these poor guys pose for them What a fucking like what a goon industry I chose And I'd be like, uh, okay, well, I'll tell you what what I'll do instead is I'll take your B and C tier books

24:55You're giving me and I'll bring in my art teams and I will Under the radar make a plus level books out of them and if I can do that Then if I can outdo not being part of the cool kids club and if I can outdo Taking things that people didn't that were not the cool toys That felt to me like um That would be a validation of sorts that nobody could take away and uh So those sorts of lessons and challenges it really taught me about I think the tenacity of rewriting and digging in and working yourself to death on scripts Until they sing until there's you know until you can get yourself feeling the emotion and all of these lessons And that really came about from being overlooked and that really came about from sort of being treated as if I was Whatever that I was treated as and that ultimately made me a better writer um, you know now

25:59Conversely, I don't think I don't love competition as an art uh fuel Uh, I think that but I do think that there was a positive to that end and I think that um You know working I would go into those retreats for two or three years. I had done a lot of video game writers rooms and written dead space and bullet storm and a bunch of stuff for electronic arts And I had done those kinds of of rooms and done it in animation but um Sitting in a in a table of 15 people that you you expected were all on the same team and the same company and realizing that it's Actually just a battlefield to see who's gonna get hoblin goblin versus redlin goblin Or which goblin are you gonna get you like? Guys, uh, I don't fucking care about what goblin is happening here and but the fucking like back door backstabbing Everyone trying to kill one another There's a lot of lessons about navigating uh That navigating those types of rooms that that aided me in my film and television career that subsequently

27:03So those are all positives, I think that was a good list Understood and and uh man it sounds like uh some who have had the snl Writing experience and totally trying to get their sketches on the earth kind of you know, it's it's interesting I mean you know the sausage how it's made and uh yeah, you know some people can Thrive in that kind of serious situation, but I understand you're certainly not the only I think very talented writer That couldn't conform to an ex office or the spider office or whatever and have gone on and thrived and and done their own thing So that's great, you know Yeah, you know, maybe it was it was a It was a uh It was a paycheck at a point in time where we were living in Portland. There's no industry around I'd left LA and San Francisco and I was able to Support the kids and pay the mortgage

28:05And have a job without having to relocate again back to a city which you know, what what was on the was on the It was on the books. I'd been offered a job at electronic arts and you know, there was a I didn't I didn't have to go back to the thing I could keep working on kind of what I wanted to because of Marvel and um I'm really I'm always grateful for that. I wasn't exactly, you know, uh ushered in and and welcomed uh in a way that made the experience very pleasant And I don't think that the corporate environment there is built for that They pit people against each other as they will then compete and then they can feed on the ideas All of the things I've read in all of the various books about how these things operate and cults operate the same way So I wasn't blind to what I was dealing with you know, the problem was is that I didn't have any any options, but There's a gratitude. I think you know all these years later and I haven't worked at Marvel for you know 13 years

29:05So it's enough it's enough. It's enough space that I can see the that oh that was that was that was beneficial in in many of these regards And you know they used my ideas and things and four movies and three tv shows and you know generated a billion dollars or the stuff and You know, okay, that's how the business runs. They're not going to share that with you and you're not going to get a gold star on your forehead I think so Probably good to know when it when it's when you when you when you've when you've served your time I Understood well again He did was rebound and not even rebound but shifted and and continued on with your creator on stuff and thrived And obviously do you feel that you brought an audience that was more aware of you because of your Marvel work to the new stuff Yeah, I mean, I think that it would be foolish not to I think that um I think that there's definitely I don't know how much of it remains Given how far back it was you know, there's two generation comic readers

30:08I think if if if the traditional thinking that you know most people you know or coming and going between the age of 15 and 25 and You know some people stick around, but that's I think that if they if it's a couple of generations worth of people Away from what I did Marvel work It's just fascinating having done so many creator-owned books over the course of 25 30 years And that I will I just did an AMA and Everybody knows like chapters or sporadic, you know, pieces of things that I've done and there's a whole generation now that know me um Starting with the sacrifices era and that and grommets and seasons and now escape and analyst and that's all they know And they'll be like should I go back and read some other stuff? Oh my god, I don't know But then and then there's people who were there 20 years ago into them. It's like fear agent in our county expires and venom

31:08um And so you live in and you know You live in a career long enough and of course, you know, it's my first time being a human in his early 50s It is a wild perspective to have a 25 30 year career behind you And get to talk to people who read any you know, they all have different They all have different things they all have different things they last onto like oh my god You know at the end league was my favorites. Oh my god. I'd never read anything like that And that was my favorite thing and now I followed you and I never there's uh there was a whole slew of people who you know Uh Towards the tail end of that I don't even yeah first round second round of image comics I did I did a book called the scumbag and another one called righteous thirst for vengeance And there's a whole population and because of covid those books sold gangbusters like they sold a ton of copies

32:10um and um Talk to people it shows and they'll just have those Like I didn't know you did other stuff man. I mean, when are you doing more scumbag? It's very fascinating. So in terms of the cross-pollination. Yeah, I mean, I think there's definitely um, you know fans of my captain america Venom x-ray stuff that yeah followed me uh and But whether or not those are still active readers. You know who knows Well, I know I'm an exception uh being as old as I am. I got 10 years on you plus uh I this is why I'm glad I've been doing word balloon as long as I have because this is a great opportunity to look at You know the whole body of work for some creators and really go back and forth and see how things have changed from a creator stand And I wonder I wonder when the first time we spoke was probably fear agent probably fear agent buddy So 20 years so 20 years ago. Oh, yeah, easily absolutely man Um, yeah, you and Tony and eventually, you know, uh god

33:10I even remember when Tony was doing that since an adi comic con since he got it. Oh, yeah That's when I saw the braiding the wrap-up to fear agent and everything and good lord that was 10 years ago or so if not more Uh, that would have been 20 11 Oh really god damn Yeah, I thought it was like 15 or something. I thought it was like 2015 No, no, no, we're at your agent by 2015. I was already deep into black science now fear agent went black science. Yeah Fear agent went 2005 to 2010. I think in 2011 is where we put out the hard covers some okay And and would you I mean there are some of these things obviously did have an ending to them But but other was did did open like you said about people saying when you're gonna get back to scumbag and things like that Are there are there thoughts to go back to any of the old older stuff for no Yeah, I mean the problem is um, I have this fear. I always had this idea that I would do my books like Outs HBO and BBC, you know like and I think that you know the Jervais office always stood as

34:16Uh, we all wanted more But but it's just enough. That's what you get and it didn't You know, then you look at the American version and man, we're gonna fucking go until we switch the character Times until we got every nickel out of the rag And um, you know, I didn't want to do that and so it's always been kind of like I want to tell a beginning middle and an end um highlighting The abilities of the artist to give them as much time as they can possibly do it So it's the thing they're most proud of and it's something that that if people will sit down and read it versus collect it Then they'll have hopefully you know A connection to the characters or or you know or just be entertained whatever it is that you get out of the thing The goal was always to uh, uh have an integrity to the conclusion And ultimately the idea of going back to them means kind of you know, I spend months on these endings

35:20you know Five in the morning bleeding out of my eyes rewriting rewriting rewriting Figuring out ways to hopefully make it more subtle more smart How much can you hide this and show that you know rewrite this line until it finally feels like something emotionally hits And then to go back and you know, you seal the book and you go done And so then you know years later my brain will go this person is doing this and this and I go we're not writing that book anymore Not doing that book any But the brain definitely has I've written an entire outline for a new low um You know, the low is the one that keeps coming up the most And I also started and I have a full outline for a uh sort of Kind of but it's not quite a crossover. It's a crossover. I don't want to yeah, I don't know if I'll ever do it But it's It's a menagerie of some of the various characters in it in a Dark tower-esque setting that's also more satire than it is, you know, hopefully if I

36:24Anyway, yes, I write the things, but I'm not sure if I'll do the things. Okay. Well, I'm glad that you're finding new things to inspire you And here we'll come back to new stuff. I was telling you escape. I love it man and I love um You'll forgive me, but I wonder I have to wonder given the anamorphic uh choice of characters and the war Backdrop if mouse was at all an inspiration. It's very different because it's fictional, but I see a through line Yeah, it's it's so interesting that of all the things that didn't inspire it that that something so obvious Would have, but in terms of the the the the generation of the thing it was years and years going back to the 2014 Where there was a germ of an idea and then there was a story and then it was this world war two thing and um I I had read an article in the meantime at some point about Humans feeling such empathy towards animals

37:29Some in magnitudes much higher than they feel it for other humans like driving down the street And there's a dog on the side of the road bleeding out people will stop But if that's a human they will not and um so as I was writing that raw story that was talking about the complications in the You know The nuance of any of these conflicts They anthropomorphic part kind of plugged in because it was a Vaseline smear on the lens to help people not quite the dealing with humans Um and then in 2019 um my father passed away and I was given a box of My father and my grandfather didn't get along my grandfather was uh one of the guys flying the hump Um in world war two over the Himalayas And then he also was responsible for for flying uh and helping defeat the Nazis in North Africa

38:29And he came back the you know um I think that it was not math But they had these pilots addicted to Ben's Ben's and Ben's and eight Ben's and eight yeah yeah yeah the opposite Brandy has the opposite Ben's and eight yeah So my grandfather came back quite drug addicted and wow In my grandfather and uh My father was born right when he left for world war two and my grandmother died giving birth and Very tragic circumstances my father and my grandfather did not Have a lot and to you know my dad never said many nice things about my grandfather But I also didn't get a full snapshot until my dad died and I started getting these news articles about what my grandfather was involved in in the defeat of Ramallah North Africa and and Flying supplies the Chinese as they were fighting off the the Japanese and all of the These very interesting so that plugged in a lot into the personal And as I was developing The the animal thing really did come from that article I read and the way I the way I backed it up

39:34Which is insane was black sad could work Uh water ship down can work and here's mouse and my brain of course I've read it of course It's a work of art of course. It's one of the most important you know comics ever made But it wasn't part of the the mix and so but obviously you know the Many similarities in terms of approach to handling some really heavy material and making it you know digestible Were you able to find out a lot about the stuff your grandfather did during the war and everything again Obviously your lead character also a pilot the bear and everything you know um I But I but no and I'm a sucker for war books Rick. I love I had nothing makes me happier than talking to a guy like Arthanas and then the amount of research that he does and puts into his stuff and everything so Totally yeah and I and I had got I was going down that road Um and ultimately I think that the

40:37The decision to make it anthropomorphic animals in an alternate universe that felt a little like world war two but Wasn't quite world war two had a number of Yeah going whereas Garth would do the hard history. This was more taking ideas concepts and um um nuance Of human perception of these conflicts and merging them in a way that allowed for a thematic you know um It allowed for a a conversation about concepts and ideas Without any connection to reality which is almost allowing you to have a theory a theory like like a you're having a uh Philosophical debate almost more than you are having a People love to misinterpret anything anyway and if you're doing something about

41:40um So if you're taking any kind of a complicated look at any aspect or snapshot of any part of world history There's a million ways that somebody's going to get upset about it But if it's anthropomorphic animals in a in an alternate universe Then I and you know there was a lot of people it really it made it very difficult in terms of developing for film and television You know I spent seven years with an overall deal at Sony developing sold six shows and got one made Which apparently has good odds but uh Doing all that stuff which was really helping pay the bills for a long time Those kinds of decisions are well. It's not you're taking the your your your feature swing out of the equation once you do those things But it was a creative decision that I I had a lot of nerves Oh boy even with akunya somebody of his magnitude Doing the art, you know, it's a wild swing and um some wild swings, you know everybody acts like it should uh

42:40Well, that was always gonna work and you go Sorta, but it's nice when it does. It's nice that it's clicked. It's nice that people people like it as much as they do I think it's great man and would it would it possibly work as an animated thing? I mean, I know that streamers are a little scared of uh or You know, it seems like animation is having the same struggle that live action is as far as the streamers And obviously a lot of that is just from a financial standpoint But were you think were you was that a possibility with escape? Yes, and obviously there's a couple places. I think could do a marvelous job with it But again now you're dealing with pretty you know, it's not it's not it's the action and violence aspect of it takes it into our rated territory Yes, so it's actual adult animation, you know It's not the wink adult animation that somebody's arm comes off or something right and the concepts are are um

43:41What's not light fair and we are not in an era where it seems like um Yeah, I think that there's a there's there's there's ground to be broken in that field and there's a real hungry audience for it And I think that eventually that hungry audience will get fed um but Yeah, so it's not one of the it's not it's not it's you know given the sales and how beloved it is I've had numerous conversations But it's all about just finding the right person with the right, you know, pile of money in the right bucket to fill You know, that's magic. It's always magic No, I understand that and also it's again having these 20 plus years of covering all this crap uh and I mean I mean that in a general sense uh, but it has been interesting the slow crawl of animation to adult and we're okay with humor But you know unlike the Japanese that have no problem and the Koreans that have no problem with every uh level of entertainment

44:44adult a child Available it still seems like it is a slower crawl for the American audience or the which doesn't make any sense given that gen Z my my son's generation I mean every time Marvel make another movie or show based on one of my books Oh, hey buddy, you know, um, I can't I don't know anything about that what they did them in that but You know you might like this captain america that tells this story or you might like this You know x-force I I did a lot of the first, you know, Wolverine Deadpool actual, you know um character work and and I was credited for saving Deadpool and rewriting his voice and and my son is literally just like hard hard hard past that hard pass Don't give a fuck about American comics or Marvel You know, it's like that that's like a gen x millennial thing to them which is like old man shit And they only care about the innovation and strange kind of the beautiful bloom of creation that happens

45:48in those in the japanese culture and in south korea means Whether or not inhibited by well, this is what people want And you go, well, it's like david bowie says no mother fucker knows what they want And it you know what like rick rubin says it's not your job to try to give them what they want And you get a homogenized kind of like This feels very Committee organized a lot of what is being produced and you know, it's a tough industry this 60% of people are out of work and that's a tough environment to go. I'm gonna take big creative swings now Even in comics that's difficult. I I have spent 25 30 years taking giant creative swings And when they work everybody acts like well, of course they did you know It was time for science fiction to come back and I go yeah, no right that's right or you know Anthropomorphic world war two animals. No, that was definitely gonna be one of the most critically acclaimed things I've ever done

46:49But that's the job right that's the job if you're doing it right and Well, everyone's like when are you going back to the x-men? I'm like oh wow, you know like there's a Picasso quote about the most dangerous Thing an artist can do is revert to an old safer form of themselves And I go yeah, I don't know. It's almost like you know uh The culture that you're talking about that my son's generation is responding to the creative Fuel isn't coming from those places It's not coming from a bunch of terrified people just trying to make things that seem like they fit the bucket And they can get these four quads covered and make this much money And that's never made the best art. It can make products really good You know, they can sometimes take toys that you liked when you were a boy It'd make a movie out of the toy and you go yeah the toy movie

47:52and If you don't think that that's in fandalizing You know culture now when when my son was like really into Pokemon and in All of the anime and demon slayer and chainsaw man and all these things I was like oh this stuff is like you know It doesn't have a lot of heart and what does Pokemon saying and I was very I was very critical of it and then I realized that um It's it's wack to do open field imagination And when there were babies and kids and watching all read watching all the Miyazaki with them and being like oh It's not it's not that it's lacking foundation. It's that fucking. It's just it's Picasso in that it's going to go Where it's it knows foundation, but it's gonna do this instead and that's where you find Human respond to that authenticity. They respond to it algorithmic thinking does not make art that people go like oh I can't believe how good that was it makes art that a lot of people might not turn off It a lot of mouth breathing types pardon my friends to the mouth brewers out there

48:57uh They might they might enjoy the the cheeseburger from the McDonald's But at the end of the day, that's life is short and I think it's our job to keep making those Those big crazy swings and I think that's why that that you know what we're seeing the The Japanese form is more exciting to an entire generation That only see that marvel stuff and those things the DC stuff that That went in our generation from cool comic books. They're just our comic books. We love it. You oh You don't know about when art atoms did that story with fucking more lock came in and he had cypress like that shit was hours Nobody knew about it or cared But when you blow it up into a trillion dollar industry The comic books kind of become Walmart sort of side products to promote the movies The whole thing loses that authenticity and a lot of the manga and anime and these things they they're not built that way It's more BBC Jurveys. It's more hey, that was great. I'm done now

49:59It's it's got a little integrity that maybe the American Institutions have perhaps lost Well, it's kind of comforting that you're using the same words I use I use mouth breathers all the time I when I talk to kids about podcasting and what's happening in broadcasting I say authenticity as well And it's true and it and it is it's important to stay true to yourself And obviously you're doing it as well with giant generator I'm gonna I'm gonna go back to that thank you for pronouncing it because we really hit that tour at the end Gigantor to throw back to the giant generator Sir, why are you saying it that way? I always said sabotage other companies that's a company that's company mandate Yeah, but you're right man. It is its product over innovation and creativity and God yeah, you know, and good lord man. I forgive me, but a brief marvel callback You're Sam Wilson Captain America far more interesting than brave new world was and you know

51:04Juh, you know, what do you oops? What are you gonna do? I you know higher the people who do the cool shit to come write your movie period higher me to be a consultant Have the people who did the thing there's a glass ceiling there for a reason it's the same reason there's a lot of there's a lot of smart reasons that Oh somebody pitched a good idea to retreat. Well, let's take it give it to another writer And then it's kind of hard for anybody to claim much ownership. There's a lot of the games being played And um, I just don't I'm not in that really all that interest in playing them But yeah, I mean I had I'm really proud of that that you know, Sam becomes cap It was crazy. I was working with the Russo brothers at the time where I went to see the Avengers movie Made mentioned something about what was coming because I was like, you know You should read my sam cap thing and make me some money on some royalties make that movie um To watch that movie and then see the entire last 10 minutes the whole emotional heart was just verbatim a comic

52:07I wrote the highest grossing movie of all time Um, it's both hey, that's cool and also like wait a minute Wait a star in a minute and you know, but if you're gonna go play in that sandbox those are those are the rules You can't at this point everyone knows the rules If you're going into that sandbox Then that's how the game was played. I didn't because I started at Marvel many years prior to the film explosion But we all learn these things together No, you're again, you're not alone. Uh, they just have to have learned the same lesson So we mentioned the sacrifices Feel tomorrow max feel mara said how we say all these last name or does he say jay in generator Yeah, he might he might uh, yes max feel mara and then uh andrei alema arrujo The word that was that that was the art that they rotated on that one. Okay Sort of the same way that you know, Tony and drumbed it on fear agent uh, it was uh

53:07Uh, and yeah, it was uh That was a story that took place. It was fascinating. What I did One of one of my now most popular books that continues to sell and has been in print for you know 15 years seven to eternity Uh, at the time I got a lot of like oh, I you know fantasy And I go no, I know What has ever been John good and fantasy um and It was it was crazy because everybody just wanted they were you know do more of that science fiction I'm like can I do other I'm gonna do other stuff guys. I'm gonna do other stuff But I think I'm talking to the internet and responses that still live in my head how how unhealthy is that? I'm literally responding to people who criticized me Fucking a million years ago. That's that's resection if rejection sensitive dysphoria if I've ever heard Ricky I'm comic book opra. I I'm here to to vet to to allow Well, I'm still feeling really awful about what those boys said to me

54:08um Purchased pearls southern bell fan. How dare you how do I Anyway beyond those things that live in the head. I've completely forgot. Oh sacrifice I did so seven to eternity as I was writing it you know um Turned out that I really enjoyed writing fantasy and so I developed two sequels to it that were in different parts of this universe um that would that would thematically each have their own point of view that helped contradict and reinforce one another And so sacrifices is part two of that so you know um the third part is still um um Indevelopment and we'll see if I uh live long enough to get to it but you know um it's it's fascinating to go from We don't want your fantasy to those are the two two of the best-selling things you've done and most beloved It's another indication of talking about you know intuition and authenticity and listening to yourself and just kind of

55:09Parting the waters and saying I'm just gonna do this and that's the beauty of comics because there's nowhere else you can There's you know there's there's there's novels and there's comics but in terms of where else you can just go No, I'm doing all these things you're telling me not to and I'm just gonna part these waters Um there were people that were quitting the scumbag because this is gonna be too risky I'm like you're responding to pearl clutches on the internet. It's not that risky. It's funny It's get smart with lemmy from motorhead as a 007. It's not that big a deal Oh, you know people online are gonna be mad like they're not real it's like 2% of the population make your art ignore them And but those are hard things to do because the internet is the town we don't go to the mall We don't go to the bookstore. We don't have Shriner's clubs. We're not all sitting around having conversations anymore And so you go click well, what's the world think and the world's like fuck you, oh everyone My way of thinking is this and having in the earth and partisanship and hairy hairy hatred and you're like oh shit the world's fucked

56:20It's not it's not real and especially as an artist your job is to ignore it your job is to live outside of it and to listen to yourself and Read books and think and come up with conclusions and ideas and express them in the work The 2% of the loudest Ricky we we've learned that with social media unfortunately and yeah, I hear you man and I agree That's but no I again sacrificeers um the combination of a societal revolution but also dealing with kind of the the family abuse themes and stuff So pretty hard hitting Yeah, I mean, there's always you know as always a reason for it beyond just self-expression dealing with my untroma You know, which does tend to slide in there sometimes but the um Wealth inequality to me is the biggest problem and so I think wealth inequality and the and the melting environment These are the two for me and we all get to have things we care about and for me

57:24I care very much about wealth inequality and a melting planet Those are top of my list of concerns and so I'm writing another book dealing with my environment a couple books about my Preoccupation with our melting environment and sacrifices was you know An attempt to take a look at Our own society through the lens of a fantasy world with anthropomorphic animals in some cases Um, I've learned some lessons along the way John um People love to it's it's hard to apply any of your preconceived prejudices to a blue pigeon that turns out Um, well, what was remainder picking a pigeon for Uh, yeah, I guess you'll have to fucking I hate pigeons or something. I don't know so There's a there's a the fantasy setting again and that one helps I think take a look at The haves and the have-nots and the costs That are our handed down to the have-nots from the haves under the auspice of

58:27Well, this is just the cost in order for us to have all these things That we're giving you because we're the kings and gods of your world That's what that book is about Fair enough fair enough I uh and uh, yeah, I think uh, I think uh, you were on the nose Choosing pigeon as uh, that's what if your characters because I think from the system There's a there's a clear analogy there There's a clear analogy while not being able to directly reflect any race, creed, color, religion, in reality that then ruins my ability to discuss complex societal issues Is and honestly Rick given that an escape Is that a more convenient Metaphor rather than hitting things head on like that Ah I can't keep doing it. It's not something I'm doing on it's not something I'm doing more of You know, I did have the third

59:27The you know, so of the of the zal books whatever it's seven to eternity in the sacrifices and the third one has a mix up of that obviously, but um it's I don't know if you can build a career Ducking and weaving with animal characters because The the the culture has become so incapable of processing nuance Um, so I wouldn't say it's something that I will continue but on those two projects in particular it made a lot of sense It is interesting again the my editorial comment that um, yes subtlety Uh has kind of left uh Some some of the younger generations and don't don't seem to understand uh Context and nuance Sometimes Hey, it's insane the amount of movies I watch where you go the number one rule of conflict is context Why are they fighting what is it represent? Why do I care? And I'll go and watch the things everyone's like oh my god, you see the thing that the billion dollar thing

1:00:30It's so good and I'm like okay The very most basic rules don't have false jeopardy Don't have somebody pretending to die to extract emotion and then have another millennium falcon save them over and over It's bad writing, but it's just all that's done now. It's like subtext is gone But context I'm like why are they fighting? It's a CG fiesta of masturbation It's like what are they fighting about what are the stakes? What do these characters each represent to each other that they have to win? Why do I care about the outcome? And how are you going to subvert expectation and surprise me and not have super gym win the fight eventually But if he does win at what cost all the very basic fundamental shit And it's just like now we don't worry about that anymore You know This this group of people like these things and they'll go do it as long as you you know give it to a minute happy meal

1:01:31You know you sound like I remember hearing Robert Crumb ranting about American pop culture In the 90s and you know as a as a miscreant punk rock kid I definitely agreed with a lot of it But I remember like there was a tinge there was it was it was it it had grown and metastasized in Robert to such a degree That I was like oh man, you know, I never want to feel that kind of bitterness like yeah, I mean I'm with you dude, but you know a little bitter Robert And then I hear myself talk sometimes and I go oh there it is. Just took a couple decades. You just got to swim in it long enough I got I got to reach back and I was looking at You were really kind man and really helped me catch up on a lot of what you're currently doing But I one of the series I miss and I forgive me. I don't remember the title But I saw a bunch of kids on skateboards and immediately thought of yourself and fraction as the skate punk Generation that was under mine and I certainly saw you kids as you were again to meet kids as as you guys were coming of age What was that book that that that as your cover?

1:02:35Oh the the recent one was Grommitz okay. Yeah, I'm gonna have to read that Rick. I'm sorry I mean I'm I'm intrigued certainly by the cover itself and I would imagine you might be exploring That that culture that way and then maybe I'm wrong tell me about Grommitz Uh Grommitz is during covid um I was Writing a lot of stories the same way that deadly class was an exercise in taking a look at the authentic generation X experience and not the amblin universe that everybody seems to think the 80s were um Did deadly class was in It was Powerfully motivated by wanting to do us an archaeological dig and so deadly class was built on you know It's probably 75% true stories and then I would extrapolate from those true stories And if if the girl cheated on me now it's she stabbed me You know, and you just build the emotion out of it and I have

1:03:3520 30 journals from back then and all these things I wrote that I would take stuff out of And be like oh my god, it's horrible to read and I'm like, but that's what a 16 year old says And all of the authentic ways that I would you know Read a review of me going to a show in 89 and you know talking about the band which I wrote music reviews for the school newspaper And I saw the pixies in 89 and no You know, it's like this idiot 16 year old going like they're the greatest ever But you know the new trump dillimote um by the fourth track you like shut up. It's great you idiot. You're kid So grommets is really an exercise in taking a grab bag of stories, but not Washing them through a heightened or elevated General world It's just you know, I was working on these stories. I had them kind of piled up And then during COVID I was staying in touch with friends via zoom And brine possein had a couple stories from the same time period and so I mixed those together

1:04:38And went off and and You know double size issues. So you know, I think it's about 160 170 pages And stitch them together and you know, it's about 90% true stories and then But but true like actually snapshot it and very fortunate and brine possein and marina d'emisio doing the art when you see it You'll feel like a real asshole for not having read it and supported it earlier um The art is an archaeological snapshot of the mid 80s in a way that almost no other living artists could have done Brett spent two years on those seven issues. So it's it's a real work of art and I'm very proud of it That's really cool, man. And by the way Thank you for introducing me to brine and jerry duggin and I remember a sandy igo night when we're all waiting for calves And I really got to talk to them even more But I'm curious regarding jerry man jerry has seemingly thrived in the marvel environment and keeps

1:05:39cranking out new books and I by the way, I love his current star trick thing that he's doing Do you ever do you ever compare notes with jerry about your own experiences and again with no judgment on either of you And some people can work in that environment and thrive and some people find it's not for them and move on Um, yeah, I didn't know I didn't know jerry was still doing marvel stuff That's how I touch right? I'm well and shame on me if he's not again You know, I only know the books in front of me sometimes and the reason why I had my most recent conversation with him was this new star trick Red shirts thing that he's doing and stuff Yeah, I have not I have I've been a I'm a bad friend and haven't caught up with what people are working on The raising of the children and the marriage and the career and the you know aging parents and what have you Not as much time to be a fun loving comic reader as I once was but um Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously I've known plenty of people that sort of do fine in that environment and can you know can do it

1:06:44Um, and there's no I There's no value judgment on it at all. I just I got to a point with it where um I had a really a number of really bad experiences and I had one particular editor whose game was to let me pitch him stories And then he would go and pitch them as his own and that happened enough times And then every like seventh idea he'd let me slide one through that I got to write um Well telling me that you know without me you'd be dead here kid you know and I just don't occur every what for me, you know Classic sort of pimple mentality cult shit Um, and so not everybody has those experiences right and not everybody has um, you know uh Personality issues with um some of the narcissists that are currently in control of the thing And uh, I grew up being abused by narcissists and so my my super power is fucking with narcissists. I'm really good at it

1:07:44Um, but it doesn't believe me and it's not good for my soul or spirit to be in those environments or enforce to I'm better off with like minded people making stuff I like and I know that um You know my lage may vary and I also know that the Yeah, I've been I haven't been in that company for 12 13 years and I've had people tell me like oh do you come back It's not at all like what it was that person's gone and they're not like fucking throwing their dick at people's faces anymore I'm just like yeah, but um But so I'm glad you know, I didn't know he was still doing stuff there. I'm glad it's working for him Understood and uh, no again, I appreciate you know the uh like I said reaching back for some of the uh the other the other moments You mentioned deadly class loved loved the series um can I ask you about the TV experience with deadly class? Yeah, yeah, sure How I mean again, I yeah, I mean, you know, well, you got a season out of them which You know is is an achievement. I certainly know a lot of us, you know

1:08:48pilots that are made that don't go to series Just talking about that last night with uh port sack p-shatcho about how uh DC had a scalped Pilot made for the CW and obviously it went nowhere unfortunately Yeah, everything. So yeah, what was the deadly class? Uh television experience late Well, it's been like anything in my life really it's been nobody opens any doors And so I have to take a crowbar and kind of wedge it open enough that I can sneak through and go and come on and do a thing It was uh An interesting uh, you know, I had I had I had taken it around town. I moved to LA in 2013 2014 and I drove around town and I you know Did the generals and did the pitches and nobody wanted anything to do with deadly class Um, and then out of the blue Um, and exec max aronson who was it zoning at the time Um, and he is behind the um

1:09:51um Hit the hit show at apple now Jesus Christ my brain is so old Sounds like the session, but it's not Um, oh uh the the yeah, yeah, yeah, the the bench still show, right um right? My brain say Yes, of course, thank you, man And so um, I got a call from max and he and Chris Parnell who is like one of the greatest guys in in town It's what I keep hearing. Yes, uh, they um had read deadly class and had a you know a real uh, you know emotional response to it And so I went in and hung out with them for a couple hours and I was like look, you know This is what I'm looking to do is to look how I'm looking to do it I want to be involved. I'm gonna do the soundtrack. I want to keep the voices authentic And you know, not having gone through the whole process top to bottom bolts to nuts, you know I've been in every side of production on

1:10:51Every side of these jobs, but I've never taken thin air and walked it to You know 60 million dollar television series and and you know International best-selling book And so their process was um Well, it only was possible I think because of the sort of DIY ethics and things that I learned coming up as a punk rock kid and not Not waiting on anybody to tap me on the forehead and say go Um, it was a few months after I signed on with Sony that the roosa brothers reached out and then they came on as producers And then it was just a matter of rewriting the pilot which I think I rewrote it like 38 times And then um various other, you know, hurdles along that way Till finally I got something that Then everybody liked and then we took it out and um

1:11:52You really, you know the only people that it was it was picked up by Amazon who then it got up to High levels and they said you know teens killing each other and it was like well, it's not really what it is But they wouldn't risk it And so it went and it went as I find there the other better um And at the time, you know It's it's not a it's not a channel that that I watch or or care much about But again, it's like that sort of being handed a character by Marvel that you don't care for you go Yeah, you can bitch and moan about this, you know, or you could say like these people are are you know There's some really really nice interesting smart people Working here that want to help you make this And maybe you can make it work on sci-fi and I think um as we got down the the road um It was clear that I was doing the creative heavy lifting um we had a former a guy who was show running have some personality conflicts and so when he left The russos jokame to me and said, you know, let's let's plug you in

1:12:55Let's get you somebody on the production side to help and you take over the creative and kosho run this thing Um, and I had done this show run job and animation in producing and that and so I had experience and But it was a trial by fire and it was two years of going to make the pilot living in Vancouver waiting for the pilot to get greenlit You know then waiting for the series to get and the way this map up up in pop up it was you know, it's old It's the old version. It's not the the streamer just says go And so it consumed I was doing that and at the same time I sold black science to amazon And so I was writing that pilot um I sold Tokyo ghost to legendary and kary fukinaga signed on to direct it Seth Rogan took over fear agents Uh, it was that plus trying to keep black science deadly class load Uh, death or glory and you know all the books running And I learned that anything can kill you if you get underneath a big enough pile of it

1:13:57Like all of your dreams it wants go um, you know, it was it was a magnificent era of of Burning myself at both ends because the pessimist in my head was like This is this is it you get the one go enjoy produce as much as you can because it's all over after this Like I don't know if that's true. He's like yeah Yeah, it's true. Do it all right now kill yourself So those were seven day a week I I'm still healing my nervous system from those years. Yeah Well, uh again The mere achievement of getting it out of the air is great um are are there things in current development still? Was that you saying that it's a great show? I didn't I didn't hear that part No, I know I'm you're from your what it's a great I'm showing John and I'm thinking about the idea that you're dancing and you're bullshit You're fucking all the ticking we've had enough What do we have an hour and a half of I would get to say yeah exactly

1:15:01to namby pamby half fucking questions Get to it compliment my fucking shit John I didn't come here to answer quite just talk about myself I miss you man. This is great. Seriously. That's fantastic You know, I'm pretty good talking about myself. It's fine. Let's go back to that. Well, you know, I shame on me I stick my chin out and I shouldn't expect the left hook to connect to put me on the flat. You know, it's show and you got it made Cool thanks not but I'm gonna fuck myself while you're on it. I fucking ass But Rick on his nice nice talking. What's it? No, let's make it another seven John nice interviewing skills. I know he's never coming back everybody. This is it So I got I got to get everything out and get it all out exactly exactly no Seriously, you know what I meant obviously it is Getting it done and no I enjoy a lot of people have to say something for other people to understand That's a thing you can't have your own barometer the show's fucking great. I know it's great. It's fine Thank you for saying so is it streaming anywhere for those who missed it in that small that short window of when

1:16:03Well, John it turns out after a large fight between the co-pro's and the Bing Bungs It was interestingly the number one show and like 40 state and 40 other countries because it was on Netflix and HBO Which is great because my Instagram is constantly filled with people saying where season two Um because to them it was the number one hit show. Why didn't it do this thing Um, but it didn't it didn't have it didn't stream here because streaming isn't a thing. I don't think people like it No, they're not fans of it. No, it's not working well No, I don't think so. So I never forget me. I never did It never did stream in North America. I think it was on peacock for a month at one point And I was like oh, okay, and then it was gone So I don't know because those are you know The deal between universal and Sony. I don't know, but I know that you can you can buy it for 25 dollars on Apple and Any guess what the proceeds go to I don't know if the proceeds go to Somewhere great somebody great somebody's man somebody's cash in checks. Okay, she's been I don't know

1:17:08Nobody's cash in checks John nobody's cash in checks. There's no checks Well, that's true the the funky accounting. She we didn't make a dime off it despite its success internationally. Well That's a longer story. I Long story. I just did it. No, you're this is honestly Rick. This is great. I was you are you honestly We could wrap if you need to I don't want to keep you if you get Priorities because because it would be nice to get you back in a few months to talk more about this, you know We haven't touched on seasons yet What time is it 3 30 yeah 3 30 or 10 I can do Okay, do three more hours, you know, yeah Yeah Okay, yeah, I probably should jump my wife. Let's wrap. There's various things because because we can come back to Hammer fist and seasons Given that they're in progress there are a couple months, which would be lovely if you know my

1:18:11Let's let's why don't we plan a part two please find a little time and I'll I'll try to store up some on we and figure how to I Just throw the pot a little bit, you know Hey, man, I you know trying to bring some shoes to your show Conflict people like it John if we had a big falling out there a lot of the others coming in Rick You know, we've known each other like believe at least 20 if not 21 years We've had occasional hangs I remember in at emerald city con one weekend We spent some nice time together. I remember hanging in San Diego a couple times. I enjoy talking you I'm so sorry. It's been as many years as it has been, but I'm so glad you came back and Honestly, like I said, I am loving hammer fist and really really excited about I'm loving escape and we will get into seasons when when we meet next but hey seriously man

1:19:12I appreciate the essay questions and your candor honestly And your and your hair. You're stark is always appreciated as well So no, no no, no, no. It's just not and it's got you know like the world needs stark, but the world needs now Snark sweet star absolutely there now you got now You know, you got get a little little sound clip for somebody called bird back arach I think we have new lyrics forget this hell diva guy So thanks for speaking with you. It's always fun you know And let's do a part two and we can follow up on some of the other material and it'll also give you a chance to Figure out a way to you know, maybe slide in a couple more warm Compliments to your guests. So you know because I'm getting a lot of them. I'm getting a lot, you know It's like a little of the other withholding a little bit. I like I I Yeah, right, I'm Like a couple. I mean like not a ton not so much that I gotta go like you know like but I need a couple

1:20:16greatest most handsome Smells nice you do smell nice. I do remember that I do That's what I like to that's what I Pression I like to leave on people Nice, yeah, I smell pretty good. You use that for a poll quote. I know one of the current books from me. Hey smells nice word below Guys smells pretty nice I'm sorry John. I gotta I'm gonna go pick up children and do adult fatherly things But a pleasure as always and let's talk again soon And that'll wrap up this edition of word balloon. Thanks a lot for listening John Sontras reminding you that if you have any questions or comments about the show reach me the email John at word balloon.com and If you listen on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts I'll make sure you like and subscribe this show right review hit that bell if you're on YouTube the whole shmere Until next time word balloon is a copyright feature of shaky productions copyright

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