Frontier Lines: Travels, Trials, and the Claude Controversy

0:00And now, it's the Better With Bourbon Podcast, with Brad Martino and Deacon Palmer. Fast-thinking and smooth-drinking. The views and opinions shared on the Better With Bourbon Podcast are our own and those of our guests. Nothing we discuss should be taken as financial, legal, business or gambling advice. Don't make investment, business, or betting decisions based on our conversations as you should always talk to a qualified professional. Always drink responsibly, never drink and drive. And only consume alcohol if you are of legal drinking age. So, the flight was pretty good. But, you know, fucking we can talk about it later. It's Better With Bourbon Podcast, episode six, it's February 25th. And we are in The Better With Bourbon Studios here in Indiana, Pennsylvania.

1:03We're back in the state. Back in the state of Pennsylvania, we both traveled a little bit, so we're just going to kind of kick it. How was your travels? Where'd you go? What'd you do? I went to visit dear friends out in Palm Springs. I've been asking us to visit them out there. So, Tony, when I went out there, I did not golf like you, but she did, and she shot an 86 with the borrowed set of clubs. One of her first rounds this year in California, so I got to give props to my wife, and that's why she's the renting Indiana Country Club Women's Champion. Well, for how many years? Best screens in the world. Yeah, where did you play, who'd you visit? Well, the Donleys, Mike and Linda, they lived right on the one course in the Weston. Beautiful track. I got to walk it with Linda the one day, talk to all the old folks there and pet the dogs. It was awesome. Eat some fruit off the trees, get some dirty looks from them. Yeah, of course. He said it. He actually called me while we were on the golf course yesterday, and I said, hey, I'm going to have to call you back, and I called him today while I was driving back.

2:04We have a stock that we go back and forth on for many, many years. I told him a couple of years ago, he was a gold stock. You're going to pick this up, you're going to take a look at it, and he's actually followed the advice and calls with questions every now and again, which I appreciate very much. It's great, Mike. But he said the weather today. He's like, yeah, about 90 today. But you guys got great weather, right? We did. We hit it just in stride. I think it was like 65 the first day, and then it went up to 7580. It was right in the mid 70s. It was when you're walking around in that, and the sun, I mean, it was pure blue skies. It's no cap mountains for the first time this year, I guess. It was pretty cool. Yeah, Kelly. It's fun to make fun of California when you're in Pennsylvania. But then you get to California, and you realize, it's fucking California. Nobody's writing songs about Pennsylvania. They're like a million songs about California. Oh, that's the truth. If we had, I don't even know if I should do it, but I'm going to do it anyway. We spent a lot of time on the golf courses down where I was.

3:06Who were you with? Okay, so we went down Bobby Marcus, Ricky, and Barry McKnight. Bob arranged. He's a member of this, I guess vacation club called Inspirato. Yeah, the American Express. I felt like this. He arranged and we'll talk about the super generous buddy. He arranged the house and just said, I got the house. You guys get down, but he took care of the house, which was beautiful. It's a house that has four master suites. The bathrooms are all beautiful. Giant party area, up top, main living areas, up top, third floor. You can look down on two. We were in the Palmetto Dunes area of South Carolina, which is just gorgeous. I heard you guys all shared one bedroom, though. It definitely not. No. Ricky suggested it, but I'm like, no, no, no, no, I'm going to go back to my own room. Yeah, right. But the reason I brought up looking up at the sky is when we were out in the golf course

4:06and Ricky is looking up at the sky. I'm like, what are you doing? Pay attention to what the hell you're doing. You're not hitting a ball well enough to be daydream. And he's like, no, no, no, no. See all these cam trails. There are planes everywhere. Look, it's tick-tick. He's going to hit me in the face. Next time he sees me, if I keep doing it. But we spent a lot of time talking about cam trails. And I got to be honest with you. And I said to him probably two, three, four times. A couple of years ago, this is exactly the thing that I would have said. I can't believe how ridiculous. And that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Again. And you listen to him talk about it for three days. And it starts to make a lot of sense. Well, he's very well researched. This I know. Yeah, him and I have gone back and forth on a lot of things over the years. And Ricky does dig into it and doesn't stop. He's like a bulldog on a meat truck. Oh, yeah, definitely. You know, so he looks kind of like a book bulldog. But he's very well informed. I can't think of that out if you want. He's very well informed. We love you. You know, a lot of things that he's talked about over the years have kind of come true.

5:06Not kind of come true, but are coming true. So, you know, when he used to talk about pizza gate five years ago, everybody kind of looked at him like he had three heads. So, and not just those big bulbous bald heads. I'm talking the weird looking ones that people stare at. But you know, the prospect of playing winter golf, no matter how lovely it is where you go. We had sun all days, but we teed off day two and day. Okay, so we played the Arthur Hills course, day one. We played Fazio, day two. We played RTJ, day three. I've played that Arthur Hills course, I think twice before. And it's great, but I had never played the RTJ course. And man, was that nice? That was really beautiful. But we didn't go over to Kio where we kept it to those three. That makes sense, it's right there, right? Yeah, and I'll tell you that neighborhood. There's great food. We had beautiful food. Oh, shrimp and grits for dinner and eating that low country. I had collard greens.

6:06I mean, you were, oh, yeah. That was really good. And what was great too is, you know, those guys, they would have drinks at night. I drank all day. Woke up had beer. They had second beer. Had beer on the golf course that we would get checked. Angels in the golf cart. We had a beer afterward. We'd get wine. We'd go have this beautiful sleep like a baby. And we were doing hot tub outside in that cold weather, which I love. I had the tassel cap on, but in the 104 degrees. Beautiful. But winter golf is not satisfying. It's like you're playing with somebody else's hands. You know, and you can, I could convince myself, you know, day two, day three to get the long clubs around. You're still talking about golf, right? That's what I was going to say. I just want to make sure that I was on the other side of the story here. Right. We are. We are exploring. Yeah. What was the ironic part of being the youngest guy in this group yet having this most beautiful silver head of hair of the four? That's, um, we, one of the group, uh,

7:07forgot, um, his hat at the restaurant night one. And we called back and, um, I said, is this, uh, the lovely gal that helped your favorite group of the night? I think we spoke to you when we came in. She goes, oh, yes. I think so. I said, yeah, I was the, the really ravishingly good-looking guy with a silver hair there with, with three very distinguished yet significantly older gentlemen. Do you remember us? And she said, I know exactly what you're talking about. Yeah. Anyway. Anyway, we had a great time. And I just, we're, since we're talking about, I just want to say, hey, thank you, Bobby Marcus for your generosity. That was a great trip. Really appreciate it, buddy. Now that is, that's Bob Turkey. Yeah. Totally, totally. So, uh, on the way back, um, today, yeah, right. So I'm sitting in the Savannah airport today, um, looking at the market, catching up on emails and messages. And I, you know, I'm just kind of wandering around looking at stuff without looking at it. And I realized they have this little like, um, a bourbon shop. And I think maybe they sold maybe another spirit at the, maybe there was a gin or something they were selling.

8:08But it's, it's all whiskey from Georgia and South Carolina. Um, and, you know, I'm like, oh, I walk in and I say to the lady, I said, hello, this is a really interesting shop you got. I do a podcast on bourbon and we're filming it tonight. If I were going to take a bottle, what, what's the one I want? She, you know, she said we got a couple good ones. But this is the one that, uh, uh, gets typically the best review. This is called sa vantna single barrel, uh, founders reserve. This is a straight bourbon whiskey. Um, but it's kind of funny. It's a straight bourbon whiskey handcrafted in Georgia, which causes a little cognitive dissonance for me. But I, you know, we're not going to, we're not going to split hairs. 54% 108, um, aged, uh, five years. Yep. Um, and the bottle's nice. I don't know the first damn thing about it. Didn't have an opportunity to look it up. Yeah, I don't either. This is a lot. Let's see. Let's see. What do we think? But I've been sipping on it. Oh, I haven't had a sipping.

9:08It kicks props. It gets props for the bottle. Yeah, it's pretty smooth. Well, the nose, I get a little water in there now. Smells nice. No, no real, no real boozy scent. Oh, no, it's not a good taste. I can see why it's one of their better sellers. Do you say boozy? Boozy. Yeah. What we call that? Oh, well, what would you call it? Perry, you would say this has a little bit of a rye. A little bit of a, yeah, a little rye spice to it. But it hasn't anything. I'll try it in a minute. Like after that goes away. It's got like a little bit of a dirty stalking taste to you. Yeah. Uh, it might. Yeah. Depending on the time of night. There's an interesting sweetness. Um, about a second after you swallow it, it tastes a little vanilla. Huh? You get that or am I making that up? Kelly, hand around you. Hold on. So I had no chance to study this. I have nothing to offer than a taste. Really good. Yeah, I got nothing. You know, I, this was a last minute. It was great. I mean, we had a different bottle ready to go today and we.

10:09No fire. Uh, no fire in this. No, there's no fire. No. For being a hundred and was a hundred. You say a hundred and eight. Yeah. I mean, it's. So props to the lady at the Savannah airport. Yeah. You know, I think for bourbon from a state that's not supposed to be making bourbon. That's pretty good bottle. I mean, should you charge you a Mason Dixon tax? No, I, I've slipped into it after hanging out with Ricky for a couple of days. I just let it roll. Yeah, I slowed down a little bit instead of talking so fast. Yeah. And now tell me about your bourbon there. And, uh, yeah, she, I think she gave me a $2-3. Get rid of the lazy eye. Yeah, there's. Right. Yeah. So, so, uh, you know, I'm not sure that was the most professional review I've ever done or will ever do, but it's better than some we've done. This is not a bad bottle. That's as good as it gets with this better with bourbon crew. Yeah. So cheers to the, I can't remember what the name of the story is, but you're in the Savannah airport. The deal with the show is you drink bourbon while you talk about tack and other things, not that you're, you know, bourbon. Well, we hope that I've proven that over.

11:10Yeah, we hope that after maybe we're consumers. We're consumers. Yeah, after a 50 or 100 episodes, we'll be better at reviewing than we will be a drink. But right now we are expert drinkers. Like, yeah, like I said last week, I want a decent reviewers. I want to taste a bourbon one time and say, yeah, yeah, forced floor. Yeah, I, again, I heard somebody say it wants it. Why not? It sounded like the dumbest thing I've ever heard. So, yeah, forced floor. The true test will be the bourbonometer and see how low it is by the end of the show. If it's down toward that bottom label, then that's a good bourbon. Well, in our audience, we'll also know how many takes we have to do after traveling all day. We'll see how good we really are. So, we have an interesting agenda tonight because we were both traveling and because a lot of the big events that have happened in the world over the last few days have been so well covered. We're just going to hop around a little bit. We're going to do, I mean, we got to talk a little bit about the hockey game.

12:10I know everybody else in the world is talking about it. We followed the Olympics pretty religiously. We got a little bit of an update on the metal count. Well, actually, we should do that right now, shit. I think we should. Yeah, so, US, if I'm getting this right, it's the highest metal total we've ever accumulated and the highest gold total, I think it was at 12. Exactly. Yeah, it was 12. And we finished second only to Norway, who had the most golds, any country has ever won. Well, can I just say that with an asterisk and not to take in the winter. Yeah. And I'm not trying to take anything against Norway, but they had one guy that was like a standout cross country skier. He won six out of six of his events in cross country skiing. I mean, that's how they traveled there. I mean, this guy just, you know, they get around from the post office to the store, you know, he just kept going. I mean, he hasn't even stopped. He never even stopped and got his gold medals. Didn't you call it? You called it, I think, two episodes ago that we won't beat Norway

13:12in the metal count. I'm pretty sure you did. Did I say that? Yeah, I'm so sure you did. It just sounds like something I would say. You could call it, yeah. This would become a short clip, I'm sure. Yeah, I called it. But I guess my point is, and again, which is fantastic. And that was a record in itself when he had six gold medals and sweeping every event that he was in, which is remarkable. But you take out the cross country skiing. We're right there with Norway. You got that right. And I wouldn't say something about these cross country skiing events. Look, how many did he won six? All cross country skiing, some of them with the shooting also. Like, do we need that many different cross country? I think one of them, he had to wave and like, guess the girls. Right. Maybe we're unsophisticated Americans. Probably. I don't know. Maybe I've been drinking too much. I don't, yeah, right. I don't see how there can be six different types of cross country skiing. Now, the one with the gun is interesting. And I have a question about that. I don't understand. Like, why do we not have, given the United States military prowess

14:13and the pride we take in it? Why do we not dominate that event? We should, we should be taking Norway out there. It's not that bad. Is there a map we should shoot with cross country skis? Oh, yeah. There's like two of them. Have you ever, ever be more like Matt Damon in your own, like, you know, going down the side soloms, fast. I'm talking speed skiing, and then try to shoot. That makes it a little more interesting, you know? More of a challenge. Have you ever tried shooting if you're, if you're, if you're a, if you're a, if you're a, if you're a, winded in your, your breathing heavy, try and try it sometime. It's, it's hard enough when you're, it's hard enough when you're not. Have you ever crossed country skiing? No. It's, no. I've done a lot of skiing. Yeah. Never cross country. And I've done a fair amount of shooting. But he's never while running. These aren't Navy Seals out there doing this either. These are athletes that, that the shooting, it becomes part of the sport. They're not really watching. I would love to see you. You said, I would love it. We get some special forces guy who works in the. Yeah. This is a Jordan Paul topic. This is a hundred percent Jordan. Well, that's a hundred.

15:13I was going to say I did try cross country skiing in Wisconsin, because that's the popular sport on the golf courses during the winter time. And it's not as easy as it looks. Oh, it doesn't look easy at all. But it's, you're shuffling, it feels like, you know, yeah. And that one where there's a rhythm to it, you know. That one where they're going around. It's almost like a motor cross track where they got to go uphill. And they got to stop and take the, the skids off the bottom of the thing and talk them in their bib. But if any of it's hanging out, you could penalize. And then you, you put them back on. I'm like, maybe that's big in Norway, Sweden, Denmark. I, that, it's not interesting. It's not interesting. It's not interesting. It's not very, and I hate to take away from the folks that do it because it's an endurance sport for sure. Yeah, of course. But it's impressive. I just don't want to really a skill sport, though. I mean, yeah, that's where I kind of come into, you know, like everything else, there's a, there's a skill to it. The balance, the athleticism, the quickness, you know. And trust me, I get that you have to do balance. And athleticism and quickness in cross country. But there's not any special flair to it, I guess.

16:13Is, is what I'm saying. And I did not watch one cross country episode. Yeah, I watched one or two for a few minutes. And you just, you know, I wanted to make this observation. It would ever happen to the days when Italy, France, Germany would win medals left and right in the winter Olympics. Russia, right. When did all of a sudden it become basically Norway, and Denmark? I mean, that, and it's interesting to see the, some of the competition Asian countries are producing. I honestly, I think part of it probably has to do with, you know, back in the 20, 30 years ago, professional athletes weren't allowed to compete from the United States, but all those other countries, athletes were all professionals. Just going back to even the miracle on ice. Yeah, that's true. Hockey think those were a bunch of college kids that had never played in the pros, played against professionals. Which parries a great segue to talk about hockey, because I mean, 46 years later here we are.

17:1446 years to the day. That's a remarkable stat. That's neat. I did not realize we hadn't won a gold and hockey since then. We've won three in the 80. Fun fact, the miracle on ice game when they beat the Russians wasn't the medal game. They had to beat Norway, I think, or Sweden after that. I think it was Sweden. Well, yeah. And here's, okay, here's another fun fact. I got this from another podcast today, so I could, did you know that what was the coach, Miracle on ice? Her Brooks. Her Brooks was the last man cut from the 1960 gold medal team. I didn't know that. And I don't know whether they made the, whether that was a part of the movie. If it was, I had forgotten that detail. What a spectacular detail. He was the last guy didn't make any, he begins, he ends up the coach in 1980 and it's, you know, greatest sports moment of all time. I'm really happy for Mike Sullivan, because he, you know, he was cool. Yeah, part of the fabric here. But another fun fact, you know, the last two coaches that have coached a win, a gold medal winning Olympic hockey team,

18:16both coach for the penguins as well. Yeah, that's a great step. That's a great step. I wouldn't know that. Her Brooks coach. I didn't know he did. Yeah, back in the late 90s, early 2000s. Sydney getting hurt. Do you think that had an effect, especially, I envision him being in the three on three. I think amid a big difference when the game mattered, because you know, if you, I mean, I just, that's what I was most afraid of. You have him out there and in the middle, and they move, uh, um, McDavid to the wing. Right. And just let, let those, I mean, yeah. With that, with that being said, we were still underdogs, and we still persevered, and our goalie. I mean, Mark, our goalie, you know, he just got the middle of freedom last night. That was awesome. He's been, he's been marked as the, the news secretary of defense. Uh, 40, 41 out of 42 stops. I mean, that is amazing. A high goal battle game. A high goalie can change, you can change a game, change the series. Oh, they had, they really were not the better team. I mean,

19:16Canada on paper is the, is the better team. Yeah. But, but we still won. Didn't McKinnon say something off caller after the fact? Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't McKinnon. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. He made a call. He goes, well, you all saw who the better team was out there. So, I mean, I mean, it's very, yeah. It's very, I'm Canadian like we talked about. The silver medal is going up. It's over. It's going up. We talked to Canadian manners last week with Jordan about the curling. Right. They were, they have not handled this well. Neither did John Cooper, the coach. He was being kind of a dick about it too. Yeah. You know, um, the presidential medal of freedom, I thought was, uh, that's a neat thing to, to, so, uh, is it just Trump rubbing in Canada's face in the mud right now? I don't think so. I mean, okay. So, if her brooks, 51st state, her brooks, yeah, right. And, uh, Arruzioni created maybe the greatest sports moment in American history possibly.

20:16How can you not acknowledge this with some sort of, I mean, I thought it was great. I think everything he did, he deserved it. I think he got, I don't know if there's an MVP award, but I mean, if there was, you know, between him and, and Jack, I mean, obviously, give it to him. I mean, I mean, they both were just, to collect. That picture of, of, of, hews, right? I didn't know that. Yeah, Yeah. Yes. He's coming from talent. So, I mean, they, you know, the usable, I mean, that's really something. I wanted to share this. I think this is right. I'm going to have to check myself after I say this said, no, no, hate mail if this is wrong. Presidential Medal of Freedom is the highest honor that a civilian can receive in the United

21:18States. I have both an aunt and an uncle who received the Presidential Medal of Freedom. Arnold got it from Obama. Went to see that. It was awesome. Oh, very cool to be in the rotunda for that. Did you get to touch it? No. No, in fact, they wouldn't let me anywhere near. I had to, I didn't even see it. I had to stand like in the hall. They're like, there comes that one. Did they have special security with you? Yeah, right. I think I just, there was a red, there was a, I was going to keep saying, you can why is that red dot in the forehead? You need to stay out in the foyer. And then my, my aunt Chi Chi, my dad's big sister, Arnold's little sister, was the inspector general for the army for the last, I don't know how many years of her career. Wow. And she was awarded Presidential Medal of Freedom by President Bush. Amazing. Yeah. First, yeah. Is that right? That's awesome. Yeah. That's amazing.

22:19I remember seeing Arnold get that award. It was on the news. I mean, it is around here. Yeah, I mean, that was awesome. But going being able to go and see that, the rotunda in the Capitol is like awe, awe inspiring. The art in there is outrageous. I mean, you don't even think I would love to see that. It's crazy. Anyway, I guess they're remodeling right now, right? Oh, are they? Well, the East Wing, I guess, right? No. I don't know. I don't know. You don't know about the new ballroom? Oh, yeah. Everybody needs more ballroom. You know what? I mean, but shouldn't, shouldn't America's home base have a party room? I mean, shouldn't it? Actually, I think that's what those people agree that it's the right thing to do. It's just something to complain about. I guess Trump condoed it off, though, and he's just going to lease it back to all the parties here. That sounds about right. Yeah. Well, anyway, the Olympics were great. Were missing anything on the Olympics? I don't think we are. No, I did want to ask you, because since I was out in Palm Springs, it kind of reminded me. And I thought I saw somewhere along the lines that I only used to travel out to Palm Springs. He had a lot of friends out there, right? Back in the day.

23:19Yeah. He had a house in Palm Desert. That's what's going to say later in his life. I was talking about really like to do that. Mike and I were kicking that around. I thought I heard that at some point. Yeah. I'd never been there, but I think somebody just bought that house or it's per se. I don't know what to do. Anyway. But yeah, I liked, we have coming off this kind of USA, USA moment. I'm really looking forward to the World Cup. Me too. I know. And I think we have to acknowledge that the women's hockey team also won. So to have both. Yeah. Thank you. You know, both teams win, and our neighbors, you know, got family that's on the team or the second at the back of goalie, you know, you know, John, you know what, wow. Oh, right. Right. Yeah. Oh, John. Yeah. Right. Brad's neighbor works for the, or just just very recently retired from a long illustrious career at the Federal Reserve, you know, kind of a note here about what's awesome about Indiana, PA. We out here in the middle of the forest. And we got a guy live in next door who can formulate monetary policy.

24:19This is a great, met this guy in the Rose Inn, which is our local dive bar here for you non, non-local folk. That's where I met him, too. Is that right? And just started talking, came to funny, he goes, oh, you're from DC, I've spent a bunch of my life in DC. Oh, no, kid. And we get back and forth next thing. You know, I'm like, what we're going to work you do? He's like, I hope Federal Reserve with, you know, I'm like, holy shit, what are you doing here at two o'clock in the afternoon, drinking in the bar where the rest of us do not things are hanging out. I don't tell you, I've had some crazy conversation. He was just being interesting. I've never really got here. Yeah. No, it's definitely an interesting neighborhood. Yeah, totally. So, what do you think? You need a refill. I need a refill. I need a refill. Well, we stoke the fire and we'll be back right after these. Yeah, we get a little bit of what we can talk a little business, a little AI. Oh, there's a lot to it. Yeah, my topic's right now. Who knows what we're going to cover. Nothing. Cheers. Cheers. All right. What happens when work disappears, when money dissolves, and when freedom becomes something

25:25you earn, not something you're born with, a new kind of power is rising not a government, not a corporation, but the algorithm. In the algorithmic state, no jobs, no money, little freedom, Amazon best selling author, Bradley J. Martino reveals the world we're stepping into, a world where your reputation is computed, your opportunities are filtered, and your identity is shaped by systems that know you better than you know yourself. This is not science fiction. This is the operating manual of the future forming around us right now. If you want to understand the forces that will define power, belonging, and freedom in the decades ahead, start here. The algorithmic state, no jobs, no money, little freedom, available now on Amazon. Welcome back, Mitchell's.

26:27You can see that we have refilled. We have refilled. The fire is going up, the bourbon is going down, and we do have a special guest in the studio tonight. Yeah, we do. He is one of the original OG matches from the Mitch Corp. Gentlemen, how are you doing? Johnny Mock is in the house. Johnny Mockenhouse. Honour to be here with you guys. That's fantastic. The bourbon is good. The company is better. Oh, and Johnny is one of the greatest bourbon connoisseurs I've known. Oh. You have better bourbon drinkers I've ever known. That's a conversation. Better bitter drinker than a connoisseur, right? We're working on the connoisseur part like you guys. Audience should know, he sampled the whisky, says A, it's good. Does this great B? It sounds like our tasting notes were pretty run on. I think you say, John. We're going back for seconds, so that's a good sign. And I get something I want to say. You can't see, Johnny, but he's wearing a pen state hat that makes me want to say thank you, Pennsylvania. Thank you for taking such good care of him. Thank you, Pennsylvania.

27:28That's good care of him. Pennsylvania does take care of him. Go to get the PA shout out in. That's great. That's right. That's right. So, yeah, so we're going to be doing, you know, last week we broke a little bit of ground. We had both our first, I'm sorry, two weeks ago we had a call in and then we had a studio gas. So we're going to try to expand upon this. The studio gas adds a little, adds a little flair and pizzazz to the action. So there might be more voices in here in the coming weeks. Yeah, we're working on a few different things. Yeah. Yeah, some friends will be around. We're not going to let them speak for very good reasons. No, Johnny's in a different camp. He did. They will be in the ball, Gag and tie it up in the corner. And you know who you are. You know who you are. And then the Collins, we thought the Collins was really fun. Perry loves Jordan once I bring him on the show all the time. Jordan, we're trying to, well, I have to work with Jordan's agent now to figure out where we get time for him to come back on and what we have to pay him because he's going to have a podcasting career without having any stake in a podcast at all. We were just the first stop of all the sports stations he was talking to.

28:29He was awesome. Yeah. So JP, thanks. Your contribution was noted. We get back in touch, dog. When we were talking about that, well, that's going to be noisy on there. When we were talking about that, that whole double touch incident with the Americans and the, or I'm sorry, with the Canadians and the Swedes or the Finn Finnish, Finnish team after they were. But you call them the Finnish. Finnish. Finnish. Yeah. That's appropriate. Yeah. Double toe. What's the deal? And Jordan is so bloody. He goes, well, the Canadian cheated. Yeah. It's perfect. One, you know, Jordan, Jordan is great at making a point, excellent professional speaker. But he also knows me well enough. He knew exactly what I was going for and gave it to me that I had a boy, Jay. Right. So we have some. Well, we do. And before we get into that, I think there's a thing we want to just let the, I'm sure the studio audience probably, and also the audience that's going to be out there is going to know. So we have a new prop in the house. I love it. It's the, the leg lamp. And in many may think they've seen this on the Christmas story, but we actually had Perry's

29:31drag bunny leg molded in, and this is not a major award. This is actually Perry's leg. No, that really is. So, you know, when we're talking about just touching to the finish, right, you know, right there. It is for Gila. Yeah. It is for Gila. It'd be pretty tough to walk out here with only one leg carrying all this equipment. And I, and I know in one of our promos this week, you know, we're going to have a show. You know, we had to do a shut out to, to the sphere in Vegas and the, because when I saw that big movie, Slipper, there's only one other foot that that would fit perfectly on. Well, we, hey, we talked about, did you, I appreciate you thinking of, do you play? Do you, I know, did, uh, Mrs. Martino, uh, Mrs. Martino played, uh, she wasn't successful this time, which is unusual. Usually she's. Yeah, I was going to ask. Well, yeah, I know she's, uh, yeah. She doesn't go to the fuck. I know better. I stayed away from the tables, which, I have a few folks saying, are you feeling okay? I'm like, yeah, I was, yeah, I was feeling okay. I wasn't feeling up to gambling. So I, I just took in the scenery and it was awesome.

30:31It was kind of like the tail end. I worked on some notes for it today and finished up an article and, as, as a great friend of ours says, work, work, work, Bradley. Work, work, work, work. It's, it's not work whenever, when it's fun like this, is it? Yeah. Well, that, that's, well done. That same guy also says, finished, I'm not even close to finished. I'm just getting started and he'll, he'll, he'll be, he'll be in the, you know who you are out there. He doesn't know who he is. He, right now he's probably exactly where we think he is. I know. Yeah. Yeah. So he definitely is. We'll get him. We're going to get him. Todd, we love you. Yeah. Okay. We get a little bit of, we've been dicking around now for how long. We get a little bit of actual business. Oh, there's, we need 25 minutes. Yeah. Some, some, you know what I think. There's, there's some serious AI business going on happening. Yeah. So let's, let's get into it. Okay. So we're going to, um, two things, uh, open AI did something we're going to talk about. And then we talked a little bit about, um, anthropic, uh, who's run by the guy, Dario, who is raising the alarm. Anthropic had an interesting week. So we're going to talk about both of those. Do you care which one you want to do first, whatever you, whatever you want to tackle

31:33first, I'm all bored. Okay. Let's do the open AI. Open AI. This week announced, um, you know, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, and I don't know whether we call it a deal, but a partnership with a bunch of management consulting firms that I think most of America would just say, who cares? Why is this important? I don't give a shout. I don't know. I've heard of these companies. I don't really know what they do, uh, but they open AI, struck a deal with four consulting firms. I think it's McKinsey and BCG, which are like the Mercedes-Benz and BMW of management consulting firms. Uh, cap Gemini, which is like the, uh, Ford Pinto of consulting firms do a lot of federal work. And then, uh, who's the last one? Yeah. There was one more. What was the last one? It was, uh, doesn't matter. Anyway, uh, it was Accenture. Um, yeah. It was your, you know, your Budweiser, uh, old faithful, right? And the deal was that these, um, four, um, management consultants would now align with

32:34open AI to help corporate customers, um, not just experiment with AI, but move into, uh, actually implementing agentic models, um, that will allow for corporate intelligence to be automated, um, and fully kind of AI enabled. Um, so this is, um, an important step in AI moving beyond this, well, let's just turn it on and play with it and see what happens. We're going to limit any damage anybody can do, you know, we're not going to have corporate data in there. They can use it to help write emails or respond to, you know, personal inquiries and just help save a few minutes here or there. That's, that's now going to change in a very profound way because of some of these agentic advances that we've talked about recently, the idea that, um, we can allow the AI to actually have access to our data, not just personally, but in this regard, kind of corporate financial data, client data, um, and help automate some of the analysis and some of the, the deep reasoning tasks that a management consultant will do, right? Um, so the idea here is we're going to roll out actual projects and programs that will

33:39help companies make more money. Um, now by enlisting these for consulting firms, and I'm guessing that they're paying them, uh, to do so. In some form of fashion, I'm whether it's, yeah, keep on revenue, basis, share, or upfront, the cost. As their duty to their clients, should they be disclosing that now, are they actually looking, if they're pitching this as a salesperson, in my opinion, to their client, um, and acting as that, that head of sales, really enterprise sales. Is there a conflict there? I think at least full disclosure needs to happen. And you have a great, you know, you come, and Deacon, as many, no, may know or may not know, you come from that world, you work a gardener. So, uh, I think, uh, you probably have faced this dilemma before and or know how the firms handle that. Yeah, the economic model is pretty much this. Um, there's not, in some models, there will be a revenue split, but what this is really about is when, um, when a company, um, would maybe get in touch with, uh, open AI and say,

34:45hey, how do we use your tools more effectively on the enterprise level? Because you have to pay for that enterprise access. Um, open AI will say, hey, instead of you, you know, name a company, um, Novartis, you Novartis, instead of fumbling around and dicking around and kind of getting in half right and kind of getting some pieces wrong and only doing the things you want to do. These four companies can come in and help you in ways that are unique to either, uh, your economic model or your industry vertical, because they have, that expects what a management consultant does. They come in and they help you with outsourced understanding about a particular industry, whether it be financial services or manufacturing distribution, even down into the middle market legal, um, uh, and those folks would essentially build that client organization for services associated with helping them do a handful of things to make AI work. It's not just, do we have a technology stack that supports AI in the way that is, is necessary, all those, all these major, and if you're a Fortune 500 company or even down to a $2 billion middle market company,

35:49you have a technology stack that works, you have cyber invested, everything is integrated, you have a server stack that is secure, you have enterprise data, that's a number two, you have to have a data environment that has data that's able to be analyzed, right? So that's a, that's kind of been a big learning curve for a lot of organizations is, um, your data has to be clean and interoperable and, uh, some people out there will understand the, the term garbage in, garbage out, the better, the better organized and structured your data is the user, it'll be for an LLM to, uh, to, you know, to help you analyze it. Uh, but then the third is really where most big companies, not just relative to AI, but in all kind of technology adoption waves over the, the past, and we can talk about them if you want, uh, it's not really a technology question. Most of the failure doesn't, it's not that they can't make the technology work, it's that their operating model, the way they're structured, what they do every day, isn't properly modified to kind of allow space for these new technical capabilities, which is hence where these for, uh,

36:53companies coming, because that's exactly what they do every day. Operating model and to your governance, right? Right. Who, who, who in the organization is the appropriate person or, um, uh, kind of department? Um, who's the appropriate staff to do what, with what data? Who do we not need to give data to? Where do we need to set up barriers? I think I'm going to like my, uh, 15 layer, uh, operationally, uh, governance structure that I, uh, formulated. If see, this is, then this is exactly why people are like, why would we be talking about this? Because that's exactly what happens. A 15 layer AI governance structure to most organization, if you're like, a, what is that and why do we need it? But it's, it's essential. If you're a public company and you're on the board of a public company and you have, uh, fiduciary responsibility to not only your, your shareholders, but your, you know, your, your board and, and your employees, there have to be, um, set standards about, how do we want to set limits around the use of the technology to make sure that it's not getting

37:55out of hand or exposing us to institutional risk that we're not prepared for? And that's, that's total strike zone for you. Well, and that's where, that's what's happened. And that's why we've seen some of the fail. I don't even call them failures. They're learning experiences that have happened early on in the AI adoption, especially, especially now since the agentech AI's come on strong and people have been eager to adopt it, but without knowing, properly knowing to put the AI governance structure in place first, thinking that this is just another tool they can add on. Yeah. Well, a lot of, but here's, okay, so here's an important, so this kind of evolution where we have these new technology tools and they're so powerful that they necessitate a new operating model. Maybe we have to move people in different departments around. Maybe we have to have different support structures because certain people aren't going to be wasting time doing jobs that now the AI is going to, so how do we redeploy those people in ways that are more economically viable to help our customers and help us achieve our financial goals? That's essentially what we're talking about. This is not new. This has happened,

38:57okay, in, in web 1.0 when the internet was invented and we had to figure out, well, why would I put my business online? What advantage is there for me to that? None of a risk? Yeah, right. It's super high risk, right? And then, you know, you advance, then we have the wave of mobile computing and, you know, working environments like banking. When mobile started, banks were scared to death of it because it was a massive security and cyber, cyber security, massive security, massive compliance risk, right? But they realized we can't, we can't do business and this is where people want from us. They don't want to come into the branch. They want to do it on their PC or on their phone. So these waves of technology evolution are not new. I guess we should probably, the next one is cloud. We move from web 1.0 to mobile to cloud and now AI is the natural kind of, you know, step forward. So big companies know they have to do this,

40:00but the reason there are so many consulting companies that have to come in and help them is because I think to this point in history, if you're on a board of a Fortune 500 company, of which I've worked with several, I'm not speaking out of school here, or you run a middle market company that makes, you know, anywhere from, and rounds no longer a room by the way. Yeah, right. You make something from a hundred billion dollars, a hundred million dollars up to about two billion dollars. That's two billion dollars sounds massive, but we're calling that a middle market company. As an executive or a board member, you could choose to be kind of techling wool or tech savvy or not. And, you know, I think that now that we're talking about agentic development and the change in the fundamental nature of the workforce and the fundamental nature of how we're using not just our own data, but our customers data and the security requirements that are inherent in a move like that. Board members and CEOs are no longer able to be technology adjacent. They're going to have to really engage with that CTO chief technology officer,

41:05chief data officer, chief risk officer, chief legal. I mean, you're running into the choir here on that. Yeah, running a company is becoming way more complicated. If you don't have that skill set, you're about, you're going to have to retire, right? And it's become absolutely critically necessary at this point. So if you're a leader in any of these major corporations and companies, even privately held companies, if you want to be successful against your competitors in your industry, you have to know how to talk to the folks in your teams, in your teams, different teams, whether it's your IT department, whether it's your risk department, whether it's your legal department, your business development department, because AI is playing a big role or can play a big role. And all those, it has to play a big role, because what we're seeing very clearly is in public companies and the public markets, valuations for organizations who have moved beyond kind of that, well, we're kind of playing with, we're doing a pilot, and then we're going to do another pilot,

42:05and it's experiment. Companies who are actually committing to this as a core, kind of foundational tenant, how we run the business are committing higher multiples. They are. And when you move down to, and this is really important, when you, when you leave the Fortune 500, because how many people, you know, actually work for Fortune 500 companies, hundreds of shizzilians and shizzilians and shizzilians, people work for companies between $100 million and $2 billion. And most people that work in corporate America do. Those companies are being valued by either public markets or private equity buyers, really in a way that's very contingent upon their ability to make sense of an AI strategy, show actual wins that are economically viable, and typically that means ringing out cost, out of your delivery model, whatever that is, whether you're a manufacturer, again, or, you know, working insurance or healthcare. And that is unfortunately kind of the first step in to a degree, machines superseding human's ability to do the jobs that they've had to this point.

43:09I'm not at a point yet where I'm willing to see this idea that this means people are going to lose their jobs. I think that it's just like everything else. Those people are going to have to be repurposed and find new ways to find economic value, which coming full circle is why you hire that consulting firm to come in and help you do this, right? And honestly, it's going to be a shift. So yeah, you may be losing the job that you know today. It's going to shift. And if you're a great worker, they're going to find something for you to do for that organization tomorrow. Of course, that makes a lot of sense. And based on what you're doing today, you may be able to help oversee what's being done by AI. So your utility's not going to go away. Interesting headline, although I don't know this person's name. It was Microsoft's head of AI, current head of AI deployment, said this week that in a year and a half, all white color jobs, all white collar jobs will be automated agendas, except his. Yeah, that's right, except his, right. But, but you know, again, coming down to like real world, I mean, Perry runs a business. You've even talked to him about the benefits AI. And that's

44:12exactly like, I don't know if we're okay to talk about it. You want to give a snippet about what do you? Yeah, we were working on his stocking line. And it's amazing. Oh, yeah, I can, you probably shouldn't talk about this, until it's actually available. Let's come out. It's called a leg above. That's right. That's right. That's it's even better. I might as well just get on board with this because it's never going to go. No, it's called Perry's Bunnies Paradise. And it's coming. And we're going to have, product no pun intended. Yeah, no pun intended. It's all in playful fun. Just like Perry likes to dress up. And then we have no problem with that, you know, yeah, it forms over the blossom. Yeah, that's way overplayed, right? No, but he, it's predictive maintenance is what we're is actually used to. It is. And Perry works in a, in a, in a mechanized environment. And the machine that they run is, is very big requires a lot of management and maintenance is very expensive. So some of the predictive capabilities that AI can say, and AI can sense things that humans can't.

45:15So, you know, whether it's through the vibrations, the heat, the, you know, the any mechanical failure that can have a sensor put to it, they're able to pick this up before the human eye or touch or sense. And usually it's after the fact that now you're repairing, and especially in organizations that are running six to seven days a week, that downtime cost you money. Absolutely. The time through the procurement market is not easily gotten today through the shipping, you know, it channels. So those are all real dollars that can be fixed real quick with AI sensor technology. And the predictive maintenance is amazing. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, that's where this idea of, oh, come tell me about it. Have somebody who could fix this for me, potentially maybe some to the speed for implementation in this shift. This is actually probably something we should, we should, you know, we talked about some of these major technology waves that have kind of washed over corporate America, you know, back in the Y2K era, there was this move toward

46:20ERP, enterprise, enterprise resource planning, and all these big companies and lots of middle market companies were trying automate stuff like accounting, like general ledger accounts payable, human resources hiring, sorting, you know, and manufacturing. What's our supply chain look like? We need this part. Where is it in our supplier network? Can we get it here tomorrow? Do we have to wait? That was all manually coded though, too. So yeah, that's right. And those implementations, again, in that, in those days, you would hire a consulting firm like a PeopleSoft or an Accenture or a KPMG to come in and they would, you know, spend a year and a half doing what's called Requirements Analysis where they're charging you hundreds and thousands of dollars an hour to have a bunch of 23-year-olds sit and talk to people who've been doing their job for 20 years and say, okay, this is a great point. Okay, so you're telling me you take the TPS report and you actually deliver it to the office. And that's a requirement. They document that and then

47:20they'd find a way for a coder to come in and write code to have that document end up in this person's desk without Mary having to pick it up and put it down here. That process caused massive heartache. And ERP was necessary because we had to automate those processes back in web.01 days, web.1.0 days. But it left a lot of scar tissue on corporate America and it's what led a lot of, you know, I think seen it, like we're a lot of, a lot of leaders, you know, kind of hold technology advancement at arm's length and that they want the benefits of it. But they do not really live those years. Yeah, they don't want, they don't want to do it first. You know, happy to be fifth, happy to learn from my three competitors doing it wrong and losing money and then I can go higher the same consultant they just fired to come in and not make the same mistake. And this is the way corporate America works. So in some senses this move toward agentech AI adoption is nothing new. What makes it new is just the power and the speed with which that implementation process is

48:22going to happen. Instead of 18 months doing requirements before you write a line of code, like it was back in 98, 2002, today you can come in and start talking to the agent in six months, have your whole process. That's going to say 18 months right now. It's an eon of time. Yeah, I mean, you're already going into the next phase. So in just like we were in the initial phase, and I just wrote an article on this this morning on shifting from experimental to practical AI, agentech AI and how enterprises are looking at it more realistically now. And that was the lesson learned is the quick adoption was not smart. Yeah, it was fun to play with, but there was some real risks out there by letting agents go out there and do autonomous tasks that were not properly guardrailed. So now the measures are being put in place and once the measures are put in place, these tools are very powerful. And just as we talk about every day, like with Anthropic and Open AI and Gemini, they're all coming up with better agent systems that are working even more

49:25efficiently, more reliably, more safely. And there are safeguards built into those models. They are. But those are those are societal level safeguards. Right. They're not. They're not keep employee A and B from using the model in a way that would be detrimental to the company. Or that process is what we're talking. When we say the word governance, that's what we're talking. Exactly. Right. And that's we're talking on the enterprise level. We're talking what's going on within those organizational walls that could affect what's going on. You have to be able to protect that. Now, we can certainly talk about how you're dealing with the platforms too, whether, whether we're siloing that, where we're taking it offline, keeping it protected. Those are all ways to do it through depending on the regulation in the industry that's going on and how we have to protect it. But it's an interesting dynamic going on, especially with the cloud market. You know, the cloud was the thing place to go. But now that's that's why AWS has kind of changed it and said, you know what, we're going to bring the cloud to you and do it on do it on the enterprise. You know, well, this would be this would be a real tangent. So we probably have to table this. We are. We are. We're going to keep going on. You know what we're going to do. I mean,

50:27we're going to bring Michelle on. Yeah. To talk about the difference between cloud computing and this paradigm where we're using AI micro processors are getting so small and so powerful. And we have very recently and we're going to talk about it here in a minute. I've been able to start running models that have enough memory and enough processing power where you don't have to get data on the phone or get data in the car, send it over the public airwaves into a cloud for the data to be manipulated and then have the answer sent back to you on the highway or, you know, in the mall or wherever you are. These processors are now becoming fast enough and the architectures are being engineered in such a way where you can run an entire LLM on your phone. You don't need to go to the clouds. You don't need massive boxes of servers to change the game. It's a complete game changer. Yeah. And that's kind of a kind of probably a good kind of point to segue to come back to our second thing. You want to take a break and we'll come

51:28back talking about it. I think we take a break. We freshen up and we stoked the fire and we get into this. Yeah, this is this might be a two ice cube night. We were talking about we've I've never made it to a second ice cube, but I think tonight we're going to make it there. Usually we just go knee at the end. Yeah, this one, this one, this is going to disappear while I know the doctor and I'm fine. We're going to come back. It's very good. We're going to come back and slow our way through a conversation about anthropic and what they're doing with deep seek and the Chinese competitors who are trying to steal their shit. This is the first time I give a legal briefing with three bourbons in me. All right, we'll be right back. Cheers. All right. What happens when work disappears, when money dissolves, and when freedom becomes something you earn, not something you're born with, a new kind of power is rising not a government, not a corporation, but the algorithm. In the algorithmic state, no jobs, no money, little freedom,

52:33Amazon best-selling author Bradley J. Martino reveals the world we're stepping into, a world where your reputation is computed, your opportunities are filtered, and your identity is shaped by systems that know you better than you know yourself. This is not science fiction. This is the operating manual of the future forming around us right now. If you want to understand the forces that will define power, belonging, and freedom in the decades ahead, start here. The algorithmic state, no jobs, no money, little freedom. Available now on Amazon. What's up, bitches? We're back. We're back. We, as you can see, we are refilled. We are loaded. We're in Burrometer. Burrometer. Down. Burrometer. Fire is crackling. It is. Hey, we're going to talk a little bit about Anthropic in their news this week, but before we do that, you need to throw it to Perry for a little bit of

53:35acknowledgement. We got a really great message this week from a friend. What was that, Perry? Yep, a long-time friend, Beth Kobach. Beth, I hope you're enjoying this week's episode. Took the time to send me a text telling me how much she enjoyed the show, enjoyed listening to it. She listened to it. Perry shared it with us, and it was a very heartfelt thing. We love the fact that you're listening back. Thank you. We appreciate you back. Enjoy your ride to Pittsburgh. Someday, maybe we'll be able to put a show out every day. We'll see. She said she wished it was one every day. She could listen to it. Appreciate it. We know her from back when the kids were playing hockey. I think her son does. That, of course. Yeah, pretty cool. Thanks, Beth. Appreciate it. Hope you're enjoying. Hey, Beth, if you're ever in town, come over for a bourbon and sit in on a show. I mean, we'd love to have it. That's right. We love the Life City audience. Johnny's over there. He's propped up now. I mean, his third bourbon is hitting him a little harder than the rest of us. All right. So we're going to try our best to

54:37get through this in a way that is educational and semi-factually correct. This may be the most interesting dissection of the Anthropics News this week. This one gets pretty technical. So we talked last week about Anthropic. We did. And their CEO, his name is Dario. This was the dude that we pointed out. It was kind of a run of the mill kind of tech genius a handful of years ago. And now he's worth $7 billion based on valuation of Anthropic. We said last week Anthropic has 10x their growth. They've grown 1,000% three years in a row. Not bad. And a lot of that is because their LLM is been acknowledged as really good for a handful of things. They do a lot of stuff. It competes with OpenAI's Chatchee PT and Gemini and all the other ones that we talk about all the time. But theirs is really particularly good at coding, right? And extremely good at coding, but also very conservative on the safe side to which I think is such another

55:40yeah, you want to remind people about that piece before we go into that. Well, I mean, I think that's and that's the other thing that he's making headlines this week is fine. You know, we talked last week about how the Pentagon was kind of pushing back a little bit. And now they requested a meeting with them. So this week since we talked. So I think they're going to have a conversation about that. How they can utilize his platform so that it meets their safety standards or get some assurances that they're going to work outside that bubble. It's not going to be used in any inappropriate manner that they would want it to be used or were again, like we got into, well, we're going to get into it. And I think it's concerns or legitimate. It's going to get scraped. So I think that's what it's concerned. Let me add a little context here for the listener. The Dario, the US Department of Defense wanted to ask their LLM, the Anthropics LLM is so good that the Department of Defense wants to use it. And they have engaged Dario on, hey, let's figure out a deal where we can have access to your highest

56:45end model. And it's not the only model they're using. They're using several. So as you would, right? If you run a restaurant, you're not just buying Coke, you need to have some Dr. Peppermint. I just want to know if it's not in all or nothing. Yeah, exactly, right. So he aligned with his stance to this point where the reason he's kind of famous is because he's been the one who's been pushing back. You remember, we talked about Sam Altman is, he runs Open AI. Chat GPT. Chat GPT. He wants to push, push, push. No safeguards. You got to break some eggs to make an omelette. There might be some bad outcomes, but we need to do it for the sake of AI race. Yeah, AI race, right? We got to win. Put it whatever you want. Dario's stance has been a little bit more held back. And he has been very vocal about warning the world of the potential dangers associated with AI. And he's also an off spring, I guess, of Open AI as he was the one that developed their chat GPT. Right. And then third version. So my monkey brain says to me, well, if Sam Altman has made himself famous by going as fast as

57:50possible, and this guy left Sam Altman to go start his own company, what would be the smartest thing for him to do is take the opposite stance and say the opposite to what Sam Altman's doing. So yeah, this week they didn't want to hold hands on stage. They were the break, they were the break in the whole getting up there and showing unity overseas. It was, it was very tiny. I didn't know that. Well, well, so he, Dario has pushed back on the Department of Defense. And he has said, yeah, we would love for you to use our model. And we'd be happy to do that, but we need to make sure that you're not going to use it to do a couple of things. And the government and said, that's exactly what you want to use it for. What are you talking about? This is the US government. We would like to use it for massive violence and we like to use it for mass destruction. So what are you saying we can't do that? Very specific. Very specifically, he is concerned about the model's ability to surveil private citizens and, you know, invade privacy protections that all US citizens are supposed to have. I think this is hilarious because none of us have any goddamn

58:56privacy because we don't own our data. And I'm not going to go off on a tangent. But there's a, you know, data and online living and consumer behavior in the form of data has been available. I mean, that's why Google's in business is why Microsoft's in business. And you'll notice we've never had a bill that has talked about what rights you have to your own data. And there's a very goddamn good reason. It's not because the companies are going to make money. It's because the government wants to say, hey, we need this and this and this and this when it's convenient for them. The algorithmic statement. It's right. Yes. Bradley is a groundbreaking author on this. If you've not read the algorithmic state, it will give a much more eloquent and more complete description of exactly what we're talking about. That said, need to take a step back. He doesn't want DOD to use his tool to surveil people, which it would be absolutely spectacular at. This said, here was this week's headline. A lot of media outlets kind of reported this wrong. What a lot of folks said is

59:58you might, you guys might remember the company called DeepSeek. DeepSeek is a Chinese AI lab. They're an AI model. They're trying to build their own model to compete with all of the models that are born here in US that we talk about all the time. And they're the one that have gotten far enough. They're a little bit handicapped because the US government has made it a matter of national defense priority that we're not going to sell aggressor countries, China, Iran, North Korea, our best technology. So they're not getting these Nvidia chips that are necessary to do two things with these LLM models. One, train them. Okay, and we're going to talk about what that means. We've talked about it before, but then to allow them to provide what's called inference to their customers. So we've restricted sales of the Nvidia chips to China. We have. And my two cents on the DeepSeek is essentially as China's version of our furniture or any other manufacturing. It's going to be made

1:00:59very cheap and made by kids. Okay, so if I were at home, I would say to myself, well, how in the world can you make an AI model cheaply? How does that exist? Right. We've been talking about for five weeks now all the money that these companies are raising to ensure that they have facilities and electricity and computing power to be able to build these, not just build them, but then refine them over time. Right. Okay. So anthropic spent billions of dollars developing and what's called training their AI model. Claude. Claude is Claude. The process of training is one that's important to understand because when an AI model thinks for you and you ask it a question, what essentially happens is you say stuff like I need and the model takes those words is I need and it goes through a massive number of iterations of what could possibly come next. It's calculating

1:02:05the percentage likelihood that you might say, I need something to eat or I need a drink really bad or I need to take a dump or I need sex or whatever it is. Or I need Claude guy's face routine. And the model will calculate the percentage likelihood of you asking your particular question. And that's what allows it to go back to what's essentially when you train a model, you're essentially giving the machine a memory. Right. So when you're asking it a question, it's learning from what you're asking it. This is this process is called context. You're providing it context through what you're typing into the chat bar or the data that you're giving it in the chat bar. And then it's going to say, okay, based on all of this information that I've just I've just perceived, I need to start doing the work before they're done, right, to find the answer and to render it as quickly, which is called inference, right? Training is creating the memory, inference is using that memory to give you advice to learn from that. Yeah, give you an answer and then use that to build on it, right? Right. So

1:03:07anthropic has a model that is really good at a number of things that the Chinese want to be really good at. Well, and it's a compliment. I think the Chinese are attacking. Oh, of course it is. But the Chinese can't get rights to the hardware that is necessary to train. And the reason we made the distinction between training and inference is because you can't provide world class inference if you don't have training until deep seek has figured out what we can do. And this is really remarkable deep seek stood up something like I'm going to get the number wrong, but 30,000 agents, bots, chat bots, and they align those chat bots to what's called a proxy server. That's right. A proxy server is somebody that buys, right, to conduct internet traffic on your behalf. And if you're somebody like China, you would hire a proxy server to obscure who's accessing the model. Yeah, just the late terms, that is what's the mic there, pal? Yeah, I laid that heavy. I laid that heavy on the mic. So what I'm saying in late terms is that they're making

1:04:15these bots look like humans are coming in to do the normal inquiry. How would you know? How would you know? How would you know? How would you know? Unless it was a massive basis where the numbers kind of went up so great, then it raised concerns, right? Well, so here's what here's what here's what is it? Okay, first one. Yeah, hold on, part one before part two, because if I don't say this, I'm going to lose. Okay, what deep seek was doing is they were standing up, fake people, bots, aligning them through a gateway that allowed them to be obscured. It was no longer Chinese. It was just some students somewhere asking the the clawed a question. And what's interesting is they would, they just started peppering the LLM clawed with thousands and thousands and thousands and millions and billions of questions that were very complex. Explain to me your reasoning and thought process clawed on how you would solve this problem, right? And then they would ask another question, then they would ask another question, they would say, okay, well, why did you eliminate a certain answer?

1:05:16Why did you propagate this answer? And so they would they would ask enough questions using techno, using AI, genius to just hammer this thing with question after question after question after question. And what they were doing is they were essentially learning from the answers. Yeah, so so so deep seek was taken this, they were taking the questions, the logic that they were receiving back and the answers. And then just feeding it to their model and say, okay, they're cheaper model. It's on the we want you to do this. And it's not as robust as an important thing is if you don't have the hardware, if you don't have the Nvidia chips to do the training, which the Chinese do not, you can't do that really heavy lifting where you're actually creating kind of a memory, again, I use the term memory, if you like, if you're a person, well, how do you know anything? Well, because somebody told you and you remember it. And that's what training an AI model is. They don't have the ability to do that. So what they did is just start hammering it with messages, get, you know, essentially instead of having a hundred percent complete understanding of how clawed would come up with the answer, they would have a 85 90% answer, which is typically

1:06:19good enough, which is usually good enough, right? And and I got to give the Chinese credit here because who to thought they would have gotten a gold medal in the winter Olympics of AI? Because well, and that's right. And and I honestly, this is is kind of the loophole and they figured it out. Well, hold on. Okay, so this process that we're talking about where you just you just pepper a model with questions. And then based on the answers that you get back, you can essentially build your own model without having to go through the very labor intensive, very expensive process of training and building your own model. They're reverse engineering. That's exactly right. They're reverse engineering it. And they now have what's interesting is essentially a lighter faster model, right? That is not encumbered by hundreds of billions of parameters in training, right? And they're able to use these very complicated sets of questions to understand not just how they get the answer, but how they decide that an answer is not going to work and go toward a different answer. So they're essentially training a model without having to spend the money to train a model. It's brilliant. So as a lawyer, this is where it kicks in though, right?

1:07:23So yeah, right. So here, okay, so the question for you is, what recourse is illegal? Yeah, what recourse does claw just just just plot has what recourse does well in the anthropic half? Can they sue the Chinese for patent writing infringement? And they're, I think they will sue them. Okay, well, give your opinion, because I have one I want to share. Yeah, go under the digital millennium grads an attorney. I just want to remind you, this is his strike zone. So his opinion is more important than I've tried to ship those feathers. So it doesn't come across that understandably so. But the digital millennium corporate copyright act of 1998, which was put in place, right? Holy shit. Right after the internet came on. And it needed to be put in place was to protect internet companies for a couple of things. So the very first thing that was put on was the notice and take down clauses, which were for platforms that if somebody on your platform posted something that was copyright infringing, you had the right to get noticed and then have the right to take it down. Well, in Perry, I know you have many relevant stories because you have so

1:08:25many relevant to the top. Sorry. But, but let me ask you, but did they steal anything? Well, here's where they're arguing is the second part. And what they're arguing is is on is on the and I need to read the the language just to make sure that I'm is not a circumvention of technical controls. So right on the internet, right? They didn't they didn't steal code. They didn't us. They didn't hack any. They didn't steal code. So what they're arguing is that they have the you know, the cap shows that, you know, we have to make sure you're not a bot that's coming in, you know, protections or they have the the limitations of usage or they have the, you know, any of these other parameters that are in place, they're arguing and those are a circumvention

1:09:25of technical controls to their copyright, copyrighted material, which still has to be a copyrighted protection under there. And here's where the lawyer and me argues, and this is where our government has filled these companies because they thought they were big and bold to come out and say, nothing that's done by AI is copyrighted. It has to be human controlled. It has to be human created. So if it's coming out of an AI, that's going to be modified, right? Well, not from us. You know, who's going to be at that table going? I demand this, right? Well, you know, here's the analogy. So why not was listening to this? And I'm thinking of myself. So did the Chinese deepseek hack and drop it in steel code? The answer is no. So I looked at it the other way. Well, okay, well, did anthropic, like, what I'm thinking about, like, what claim could they have? And I think the answer is anthropic, you just need to be a little more stringent about your

1:10:26access control. Well, an anthropic has also been on the receiving end of that. They've said, you know, they went out and when they train their models, they were using a lot of unauthorized access and materials. Oh, that's such a great comment. Let me, this is too good. What Bradley's talking about is a comment from Elon Musk. Elon Musk came out, I think just yesterday and said, this is so hilarious that Dario and anthropic are complaining about somebody stealing their technology in a way that's actually, you know, the irony is bourbon palpable. Well, because because he said he said they trained, they trained Claude on stolen content from authors and public periodicals and stuff that people own, like books, magazines, published academic articles. They just stole all that stuff before there was a rule that said, you can't have it. So Elon Musk came out and said, you got to be kidding me. The irony here is so thick. You're angry because they

1:11:27stole your stuff without stealing it when you stole everybody else's stuff without stealing it. Yeah. You should. Right. Yeah. Well, and it even gets better because, you know, again, if there's no copyright protection, they have no leg to stand on until the governments and they will. It's like the first wave of the internet coming on. So they think this is the bad, you know, the bad player in the room that's trying to do bad things. It's affecting creativity, affecting this one. You know, all these different levels, which I appreciate. You know, if it really is and you're stealing other, you know, people's original work, that's not not good. But my answer, they're not doing that. Well, they're not, I would agree with you here because here what they're doing in this, and this is a crux to the issue and it's much late because they're not hold on. They're not trying to copy. They're not clod. They are trying to use, they're trying to use the rationale, the logic strings, and, you know, answers from them, reverse engineer, how a lot comes up with those answers.

1:12:29And this is the perfect Google analogy. Interesting. Yeah. Because it's the output. Yeah. So when you type something into Google and you search it and you get that output and Google has this algorithm and it's software in the background that's doing all the web crawling that brings that to the forefront. There's a lawsuit that's pending right now on that very issue by another company that is taking Google's outputs for their own use and they're saying, no, you can't do that scraping and use it for your own use. But as far as I understand this, deep seek is not taking their outputs. They're understanding the logic and the thought process, implementing it with their own code and creating outputs of their own. They're not stealing anybody's outputs. They're stealing the thought process that leads to the outputs. But how are they stealing the thought process by reverse engineering? Exactly. So they're not stealing anything. But they're taking the outputs to reverse engineer that thought process. But here's where I get

1:13:31back and here's where I think it fills. If I'm arguing this, if I'm the judge on this, there's no copyright stance right, at least not in America. Our law is made very clear. Our copyright offices come out and said, if it's created by AI, there's no copyright protection. There's no copyright. Therefore, Anthropic has zero copyright protection. That's the way that, again, second time I said in my monkey brain, perceived this. And I was thinking, you're going to laugh at me when I tell you this. Definitely 25 years ago, 20, 25 years ago, this is so dumb. I think it was yield play or one of the yogurt companies ran a promotion. And I just remember this. I didn't research it. They ran a promotion where every time you'd peel open the yogurt pod on the foil top, there were airline miles. And I can't remember there was United or US Air or whatever. It's like, yeah, you eat yogurt. Let's call it 300 airline miles.

1:14:33Some guy was eating his yogurt. He's like, well, I'm just going to keep eating it. And he finally sat down. He said, but wait a second. If I just, if I bought, say, $10,000 worth of yogurt, I would get $800,000 worth of airline tickets. So we did that. And the airline is like, what the fuck? And they tried to find a way to get, do you remember this? I don't know. No, I mean, it's so obscure. That was just the verb and going, no. What recourse does the airline have? You're running a promotion. All the guy did was math. Well, and that's all deep seats doing. They're just doing math to figure out how we, yeah. Have you seen the documentary about Pepsi giving away a fighter jet? Yes. That's the great guy legitimately won. He did. He beat, and that's exactly the same case, the Pepsi jet. That's exact when you started talking about that. Exactly. Exactly. Oh, I'm not familiar with that. No, you have to look it up. It's on one of the documentaries. They had something to do with if you, if you, it's like collecting points.

1:15:34And when I used to smoke, Marboro did the same thing. You would collect the Marboro miles off the side of the pack, and then you could buy merchandise with it. Well, Pepsi ran some kind of a promotion where if you bought so much Pepsi, they would give you a fighter jet. It was a joke. It was obviously a joke, but the guy did it. Did it. And then he actually sued them and forced the one. Yeah, he won. And I'm sure, and I'm curious. I'm just going to appreciate. Right example. Same thing. It's a documentary. Listeners can appreciate Perry's a raspy smoking voice because it goes perfect in those size 13 slettos and stockings. Perry doesn't smoke anymore. Yeah, you're very healthy. Yeah, of course you are. Well, I'm not healthy, but I don't, I don't, I don't smoke. Hey, Perry, you look good. The skin's not that good yet. Yeah, the legs, everything, which yeah, right. So I don't know, I don't know. I don't know whether we have reached any conclusions. Not, I don't think we have, but I think Dario's probably barking up the wrong tree here because in Google's not going to get, and I was, as I was researching this a little further today because I knew that this existed

1:16:37out there. Google hasn't gotten very far with it either because that's the question. So if it's free to the public, it's openly accessible. Okay. Yeah. Well, that's not, that's not what they did. They bought it, but you keep going. Yeah. Well, what, what I'm saying, I'm saying I'll assume, okay, we'll get past that. So eat it. Get past the accessibility layer. If they bought whatever, they bought access. Okay. They bought access. Absolutely. And now they have access to it. But then again, you got to look to the terms and conditions, right? And that may be a whole different, well, that's where I'm, a whole different fight. So yeah, that's where I'm landed on this. Well, well, if they're terms and conditions, you can't ask a lot, a lot of really good questions. Well, no, they're going to regulate that. No, but the terms and conditions can say you can't use an automated system to come in. Well, I think that's clearly where they're going because the, what, what, what I understand about what anthropic is trying to do to thwart these efforts and they're, they're already well in their way on this. Obviously, we're not reading about it. That this has already happened.

1:17:38They are use, when you, when you are a third-party actor trying to access an enterprise model that you've paid to have access for, you have to do it through something called an API application protocol interface. That's how one piece of software talks to another piece of software. It's communications like your waiter to the kitchen. Exactly. What is happening is anthropic has now started looking for certain types of API traffic, cadence of queries. A human is never going to ask a really complicated three layered question every 30 seconds for nine hours about the same topic. That's not human behavior. That's clearly something that's automated, right? And that's a bot in China, banging the model to ask it as many questions as possible to figure out. How do we get to where we're going and what's going on there? What do you say there? So you keep talking about bots. So these are the same bots that post all these posts on social media. A lot of them are just bullshit.

1:18:40And they're AI-generated. Every day in is not one one of them. No, I get away from that. But that's exactly what I think bot, that's exactly what I'm saying. So these are these also the things that the Trump administration has accused China of using to try to sway elections. Yes, yes, yes. So how do they explain how those work? Like, what do they, they tell AI, hey, send a million bots out to go make these posts on social media. I'll let you tackle, but I will just say this. It's very much so like the agentic world that's out there right now, but it's the bots were on a on a solo mission. So when you was sending the bots out before, you had one task that you threw them out and they did. And if that task was to argue with Perry Muir online about every, still little fashion that was out there. Like they know, like they know, they have the ability to learn from the response right after another question and continue to rail. Like they know what I know, Brad.

1:19:43So now the, well, now the bots are getting smarter. Right, right, right. And um, yeah, okay. So will we do need a break? Okay. Oh, our technology is gonna blow up. Okay. No, well, Perry still ittles are getting hot. Okay. They just got red heels. So we're, we're, remember where we were and we'll come back. Yeah, no problem. We get about five more things to say that. Yeah, we probably do. Nobody gives a shit about it. We're going to cover it anyway. Like it'll be good. Like you said early on, nobody, nobody gives a shit anyway. That's right. All right. We'll be back in a second to finish this up for our entertainment. Right. What happens when work disappears, when money dissolves, and when freedom becomes something you earn, not something you're born with, a new kind of power is rising, not a government, not a

1:20:44corporation, but the algorithm. In the algorithmic state, no jobs, no money, little freedom, Amazon best selling author, Bradley J. Martin O reveals the world we're stepping into, a world where your reputation is computed, your opportunities are filtered, and your identity is shaped by systems that know you better than you know yourself. This is not science fiction. This is the operating manual of the future forming around us right now. If you want to understand the forces that will define power, belonging, and freedom in the decades ahead, start here. The algorithmic state, no jobs, no money, little freedom, available now on Amazon. So here's my question. Love it. My question is if the Chinese are using their, and what's the name? One of the deep sea. They're using deep sea to use our

1:21:50systems to their advantage to train their systems and train their model. Could we give them bad information intentionally to throw their model off? Interesting question. I love the fact that you asked that question because it means that you asked it the right way. Are we doing a good job explaining this? I don't know. We're not going to, I'm not going to, you're doing a very good job on the five-yard line. Because if I understand it, your question is a great one. That's a great question, and that's where we can get into. Yeah, right. So the answer to that is when, let's fucking start over. I'm sorry. I thought we were fucking around. This is great content. How funny was that? We're rolling. Yeah, we're, we've been good. Okay, yeah. I'm sorry. I wasn't there. I'll keep it up. I'll fix it up. So that was doing normal for me, bitch. The answer to that question is, just keep it a real, Brad. All right, thank you, brother. So when the Chinese use these fake proxy

1:22:51servers, these bots with the proxy servers to make these calls to anthropic, they look like American servers coming in. Well, they have to come through what's called an API, right? We talked about this just a second ago. Because of the nature of the way that those prompts are delivered, the structure of those quite, no, no human is going to send a question every 30 seconds about a topic for 12 hours. Other than me. Yeah, maybe, maybe you would. How do I put these shoes on Perry's picture? I've literally been pounding AI like it's, how do I make it look like? How do I make it look like the wicked witch of these? They're like, I don't know who this Chinese bot is, but God, damn it. Let's get them out of here. Okay. So a panthropic is getting a question like, explain to me your rationale and internal reasoning for how to turn, what did I say early? Isopropyl alcohol into a nuclear bomb? That's perfect. Right. Right. We're going to

1:23:53end it on that one. I can't even like talk about how you were able to pronounce it. A demented human being could ask that question. Yeah. And they might ask a follow-up and they might ask a third follow-up. But the way that the prompts are coming from deepseek, it is every 30 seconds, there's a new, thousands and thousands and thousands of questions about a topic that is completely obscure and nobody's actually researching. Is it like they can they can detect that's not a human asking that. It's what old Chinese fucking. So when they do that, are the questions, is it a question on a topic and then 30 seconds later, a follow-up question on the same topic, or is it like a totally random different topic? No, no, no. It's they will ask thousands of questions about a topic, not to understand the topic, but to understand how the model gets from the initial question to the answer. It's about the logic and the reasoning

1:24:55because that's what they want. They don't give a shit about what the fucking answer is. They don't care. They're going to generate their own answers with their own model. What they care about is having the ability to generate inference without having to spend the money to do training because one, they don't have the money and two, they can't buy the equipment that's necessary to train the model. So here's the question. So should there be copyright protections on AI inference? No. No, I don't. Well, first of all, there's, I don't, again, I'm not an attorney. I don't see how that could be possible. Well, there's the, and right now, as it stands, there's no copyright protections on anything AI produces. Well, in a world where there's AGI, how do you, how do you, how do you copyright? Well, and I think that's where copyright is going to lose a little bit of its edge. What's already lost it? Well, it has. And it's going to get rounded down, right? So it's how many authors have lost control of their IP in books that they sweat and slaved over, spent months writing that people like, and there's again, back to what we said earlier,

1:25:57Dario, but the law just shocked up before there was a law. But the lawsuits have been instilled since. It doesn't matter. You already has the model. I mean, they might have to make some recompense. And I understand there's been some. It's a bulltake. It's a bulltake. I mean, there's been a settlement already. Take it and then you pay it later, right? So who cares? It's afterthought. Yeah, at a $3,000 Dario could pay that himself out of you can now. No, it's 70, right? But when he wasn't doing the kind of multiples he's doing today, three years ago, that's a different, you know, that's a different. I guess the question is, does, can we use this as a weapon against the Chinese to win the proverbial? We're not that smart race. Well, no, no, no, when you talk about we're always on the defense. Hence, hence the hockey guy. That's true. The process of say the question again. I said, could we use, if we know they're

1:26:59abusing our technology that way, could we use that as a weapon against them? No, I mean, we know now other than making the model dumb. Here's what they're doing to protect against this. And this is actually what's happening. When they receive all those prompts and they detect that this is not a human asking a question that a human needs, what they do is they start varying the cadence and the response structure that they give back in hopes of just confusing the other model. But eventually that other model will be able to detect that model A is trying to confuse model B. And then it's just going to be a, it's going to be an answer. So like in these agents, are these agents saying to each other, watch this? Yeah, right? Yeah, I'm getting my phone answered. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, I would like to think that's how it works. Johnny had a quote. What was the question you asked, John? It was a good one. Which one? The one that you said it was about, can you, can you, can you set two AI entities against each other and ping pong back and forth? Is that, is that what, well, that's exactly what this is. And I think

1:28:01the problem with that is if, if anthropic wants their flagship model to be used by somebody like the Department of Defense, they can't have it given bonk answers, because they're afraid it's China. Oh, great question. Turn to my question, where, as you were saying that they didn't want the DOD to have this, this technology, I mean, they have a choice. Well, as sooner or later, they'd be honest. Yeah, they do very much want to have the idea as a customer. But again, this comes back to Dario's kind of personal affect in this whole thing. He loves this idea where he's the only guy who's saying, no, no, no, slow down while he's selling his shit to the Department of Defense. Well, let me give you a fucking break. If they said, if they said to him, Dario, you want to, you want to do an enterprise contract to the Chinese government? If he could find a way to do that, he'd sell it immediately. He probably would, but he would, of course he would, but I will, I will say this his safety stick is perfect timing, because that, that's what's burnt every of the enterprises. And it is stick. You got to read exactly the right one. It's stick. It's

1:29:02bull. You talk about stick. I was convinced years ago. Do you remember? Don't talk about that night. Norton, you, not that different. Different night. Norton, you tell it is. I was convinced that, that what was the guys doing? He kind of went nuts to me that Peter, Peter Norton has name. Didn't go crazy. He lives in a virgin island or something now. Is that North utilities? I think it was sort of gentleman that found it in Norton. Norton, Nanny virus. Yeah, you're, you're talking, so he's passed a ways. Did he? Yeah. Oh, he did die. So anyway, I was convinced years ago, in the early days of the internet, when it was, it became super easy to spread a virus or a worm or whatever you want to call it, that they were spraying the worms. That was the Cassi McAfee. It was McAfee Pat. Yeah, you're not Pat McAfee. Sorry, Pat. But hey, but good for him for paying that tab for the hockey guys the other night. Anyway, I was, I was going to wait for

1:30:05Pat. In the early days of the internet, when it became really easy to spread a virus or a worm and infect all these computers, that they were putting the worms out there and then say, oh, hey, we have the solution to save your computer from this worm. If you pay us $1999 a month, we'll protect you, right? It made billions doing it. Well, you don't think a lot of these early software guys, I mean, there's been rumors about others, right? I'm not going to name them, but their big names, right? That came up with the solutions, how to protect you. So 100%. Well, that's actually because that's where the sense you're, you're, yeah, I mean, that does where it ends and, and well, what first thing actually has the cure? Well, what we're seeing here is now, is there, even though this is bad, nathropic is being cheated, whether it's illegal or not, what this is resulting in is a higher order attitude toward cybersecurity that is more appropriate for the AI and agentic age. But then anthropic also announced this week that they had the patch that allows it to go out there and look at a platform

1:31:12and detect any cybersecurity gaps. I don't know the answer to that, but fix it. Well, and that's what sent the stock market into a whole tangent. Is that right? All the stocks this week when Monday, when Monday, don't yeah, yeah, we're relating the comeback was okay. They come back as great. But the initial pullback was the cyber cybersecurity firms that were afraid that yeah, I didn't realize that you know why I didn't realize that because I was drinking them. You were drinking and golfing and palm metal dunes, mother. You were buried sand down. I was not both Ricky Miller. You were in the eye about the controls. Look at over the clouds. But yeah, I mean, yes, that is the answer. But these sorts of problems. Remember, remember when you used to have, you'd open an email and you'd get a virus and you'd have pop-ups would happen. Then you'd have pop-up blockers and then you would have a digital wallet. None of your financial information. And these guys were happy to sell you a solution for that. But that's how progress

1:32:15happens. You get a bad guy who's trying to figure out how to steal from you. You have a good guy who says, okay, we need to stop this. He's gonna fuck everybody up. My question is, is the good guy, the bad guy or the bad guy, the good guy? It's like it could have been, it could have been same people. It's like a double dildo. Well, this plays into the topic that we've been talking about. We're both getting fucked. We've been talking about this for a couple of weeks. We've been dancing around this. We've been talking about, what does it mean to win the AI war? We talk about it. We have to win. We talked about it a couple of times. What does that mean? Well, that's what we're talking about now. And who is determining those parameters? Okay. Well, this is where I get completely freaked out because again, the people who are in charge of making regulation in our country have no means to understand what the fuck they have no idea what they're doing. So, do you think AOC knows the difference between difference in training?

1:33:18Well, or she can make them believe they're Republican. They know less about it. She could mix a drink. That's all we know. So, who's influencing? It's the influencing lobbyists that have the dollars that are saying this is what you need to just say and do. Well, so here's a question I have as a layperson to all these topics. So, I get the impression that you guys have... And Perry, you're not a layperson. You are an expert still little wearing drag bunny. How do I know this is going there? Dancing prodigy. So, do we have a more positive opinion of Dario than we do Sam Altman? Or like, what do you guys fall on? Where do you guys fall on that? Certainly I do. Okay. Because I think Sam's taking the shortcut going through the cheat sheet with the... No, my opinion is one's no better than the other. Yeah, I said it earlier.

1:34:19Probably, but Dario worked for Sam. Yeah. He wanted to leave and do his own thing. So, they're equal. The opposite of what Sam's doing. And that's... I disagree. I disagree wholeheartedly. Yeah. Well, this is... And I'll tell you why. Yeah. Because... Could you use that again, Brad? Do that wholeheartedly. Wholeheartedly. It was very cinnamon. I'll tell you why. We are getting loose here. Yeah, the bottle is empty by the way. There's a bottle. Yeah, the Broom Bronmer is empty. There is no second segment after this. So, we're going to wrap it up. But I will say this. I think Dario is taking the higher ground stance. He's saying that... That's the card he's playing. Yeah, it is a card. He stood by. It's not a temporary card. I want to take the safe model. He's even pushing the government back, which is the easy model. So, when the government is giving you a contract, let's just take it and go. He's pushing back. Well, him, man. I mean, if you rolled out a model that was specifically designed to help with coding

1:35:21like Claude, you could sell it to the government or you could sell it to 800,000 corporate enterprises who say, oh my God, this is so important. And the fact that you take the security aspect so seriously, I don't know the first fucking thing about this. And I'm scared to death of it. And if we fuck it up, I'm going to get fired because I'm the CEO. Yeah, I'm going to invest in you instead of this kid over here, Altman, who is clearly deranged and wants to drive the car 120 miles an hour on the road with his eyes closed and the lights off. But here's the thing. There's no. But here's security. But here's the thing. So this draws a parallel to our conversation on curling last week. It's self-moderated. They they call their own files. They they decide when a file has occurred. And they, I think he said, adjudicate those files. That's the term. So this is the same thing because it's a good people. These level of

1:36:26intellectual capacity. These people were built. Yeah. We miss you, Jordan, we need you back. But these people who are making these decisions know far more, as we've talked repeatedly, than the people in our government who are going to be controlling and trying to let it go. And we have we have an AIs R. His name is David Zach. It's not a cabinet position. It's a czar position. So it can go away. That would be a cabinet position. It has to be. It's absolutely neat. And not only do we need an AIs R. The problem is that the current administration has lumped these in with crypto and AI. Like they're the same thing. They're not. They're just there. There's two technologies that nobody in Washington can fucking understand. And by the way, both great technologies. And on that note, that's the problem because a lot of these politicians don't understand it, right? So how do we lobby it in an

1:37:30effective and responsible way if they don't? And if it's the big lobbyists with their money coming in to influence this, it's a good question. Is it being done responsible? So our Dario and Sam Altman kept doing the trust me. It'll be okay. Right. That's scary. Well, they were doing this. If you put your hand up, Deak, they weren't touching hands at the summit this week. Is that right? That's right. No, shit. It was the divide and the unity chain that was coming through. Yeah. So these guys, this is Coke and Pepsi. This is Ford and Chevy. It is. This is the Lakers and the Celtics. Right. They might stand there and take a picture. But they're not. Sports illustrated. But when it came to hold hands, they're not friends. That's where we draw the line. I hope you're how many bourbons you give us. That's right. Okay. Well, hey, that's I don't know how you feel about. I feel pretty good. We're not white. Hey, thanks. We'll see you next week. Cheers. Cheers.

1:38:33Yeah. Night. Business or gambling advice? Don't make investment, business, or betting decisions based on our conversations as you should always talk to a qualified professional. Always drink responsibly, never drink and drive, and only consume alcohol if you are of legal drinking age.