Ep. 2495 - EVERYTHING You Need to Know About the Lindsay Clancy Case

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1:00from the market. Go check them out right now shopify.com slash Shapiro. We'll get to more on this in just one second. First, you know, 20 years ago, man, a lot has happened in my life. I was 22 years old, I was not yet married. And now just think back over the past 20 years, wife, five kids, big business, all of it. What? 20 years of long time, simply safe is now celebrating 20 years. Again, most companies don't make it that long unless they're actually solving a real problem. When you're picking a security system for your home, what you're looking for is peace of mind. The goal is not to obsess over your security. The goal is to never have to think about it again. And that's what I like about simply safe. Most home security systems are designed for after something goes wrong. After the window breaks, after someone gets inside, after your phone buzzes, simply safe's approach is different. It's designed to help stop a break in before it happens. They're AI powered outdoor cameras to text suspicious activity around your home. Alert live, US-based agents, those agents can actually speak through the camera to scare off trash passers and if necessary, request 911 dispatch. Prevention beats reaction. Simply safe has been protecting your world for 20 years. Celebrate their anniversary with us and save 60% on your new SimplySafe system at simplysafe.com slash Shapiro.

2:00At 60% off at simplysafe.com slash Shapiro Plus, when you order, write in our show name and the how did you hear about a survey to let them know we say, there is no safe, like simply safe. Tired of your car insurance rate going up even with a clean driving record, you're not alone. That's why there's Jerry, your proactive insurance assistant. Jerry compares rates side by side from over 50 top insurers and helps you switch with ease. Jerry even tracks market rates and alerts you when it's best to shop. No spam calls, no hidden fees. Drivers who save with Jerry could save over $1,300 a year. Switch with confidence, download the Jerry app or visit jerry.ai slash wire. The jury is now out on Lindsey Clancy. Clancy, of course, murdered her three children and then jumped from a second story window after cutting her wrists. All of that is undisputed. The question is whether she was mentally ill to the extent required by law to fulfill the insanity defense today. We're gonna go through the entire case. So you know what the hell you're talking about when you talk about this case, because the ridiculous hot takes that you are seeing online

3:01from legitimately all sides, they could power a small city. Now, as I've been saying, this case is not about you. It is not about your dispensary at having to deal with annoying toddlers. It is not even about the awfulness of postpartum depression. It is not about selfish women or abortion or the fall of Western civilization. This case is about a fact pattern and you should know the fact pattern because if we would like to come to a consensus as Americans, as opposed to just beating each other with pool noodles, the fact ought to matter at least a little bit. And then I will give you where I think the jury ought to come down on this one. Plus, we get to Lake America, Gavin Newsom's wine seller and president Trump's presidential rankings. This is the Ben Shapiro show. And what my great irritations with all of the coverage surrounding Lindsey Clancy's case is that so little of it focuses in on the actual facts of the case. And this sort of drives me crazy. The same thing happened in a sort of different way with George Floyd. The entire George Floyd case, the Derek Shovon prosecution,

4:02none of it was predicated on the facts of the case. It was all based on narratives drawn from the case that had very little to do with the actual case. So you'll recall that in that particular case, there were narratives that were drawn about the nature of America's criminal justice system being biased against black people. There are all sorts of takes about how America's systemic racism led to the death of George Floyd. And then you looked at the facts of the case and it didn't look like Derek Shovon murdered George Floyd. Didn't even look like he manslaughtered George Floyd. There was not even an accusation of racism in that case. And so if you were just looking at that case, the fact pattern of that case and then you were looking at Americans going after each other and then riots to the tune of two billion dollars over that case, you would say this is nuts. And we are consistently doing this now in America. We are taking outstanding circumstances. And circumstances that are a few and far between incredibly rare with particular fact patterns. And then we are using them as ways to project our own dispapsia with America and with our fellow Americans onto those cases and it's inappropriate and it's wrong.

5:03Each one of these criminal cases deserves actual attention. Instead of us just jumping to the conclusions that we are looking for based on our priors, we should be looking at the fact pattern. So let's begin with philosophies. So philosophies is when parents kill kids. Very uncommon, this is why I'm saying this. The reason I'm saying this is because when you try to project onto extraordinarily uncommon circumstances, your particular life circumstance, your point of view, America more broadly, the patriarchy, your experiences with your kids, you're doing it wrong. Filiside is very, very rare in the United States. And multiple philosophies by mom is vanishingly rare in the United States. There are about 3.6 million births per year in the United States. There are some between 450 and 500 cases of philosophie every year in the United States, which accounts for about 2.5% of all U.S. homicides annually. Most of them are by men. Most of them are single homicides. There are about 15 to 20 cases of multiple philosophies, meaning multiple kids killed by mom in the United States each year.

6:04Because they are so rare, that is why we know the names of people like Andrea Yates or Lindsey Clancy. Because it is not in fact a commonplace occurrence for a mom to kill multiple children. The reason I'm pointing this out again is because if you are taking away from Lindsey Clancy's cases that she is just like you, you are doing it wrong. Or if you are taking away from Lindsey Clancy's case, the women be craved, generally, you are doing it wrong. And there are good studies that have been done on Filiside and its connection to postpartum psychosis and other forms of mental illness. There is one from 2007 in the World Journal of Psychiatry. And it describes this phenomenon. It says, quote, a lesser threshold for hospitalization should be considered for mentally ill mothers of young children due to the possibility of multiple deaths from a Filiside suicide. Factors which potentially merit psychiatric hospitalization include maternal fears of harming their child, delusions of their child suffering, and probable concerns about their child's health and hostility toward a despised partner's favorite child.

7:06Psychotic mothers who fear that their children may suffer a fate worse than death due to persecuted delusions should either be hospitalized or separated from their children. These mothers may be reluctant to share their lusional ideals. Now again, why am I reading that? Because so much of that seems to describe the fact pattern that we're actually looking at. As we will discuss, Lindsey Clancy, either according to the prosecution, believe she, should kill her kids because her kids were in obstacle to her killing herself or according to the defense. She did so because a voice told her that she needed to kill her kids. Either way, one of the things that is interesting and fascinating about this case and the practice of psychiatry generally, psychiatry is extraordinarily imprecise. You can have a series of symptoms and that series of symptoms can be put into a basket of categories. There are multiple diagnoses that can be made of any basket of symptoms, particularly when you're talking about complications arising from drug interactions. That is just a reality of psychiatry. As I say, when it comes to psychiatry,

8:08it is essentially a more sophisticated version of the sham and who's using various berries to treat various symptoms. It is trial and error. You have to determine whether a symptom abates or whether it exacerbates. You then have to titrate up or titrate down. You have to determine whether you need a second medication in order to deal with secondary effects. Psychiatry is extraordinarily imprecise. Diagnosis is imprecise. Prognosis is imprecise. All of it is extremely imprecise. And that is complicated by the fact that unlike other health conditions, psychiatric conditions, because so many of them are internal, you can't see inside somebody's brain the way that you can just x-ray a leg. That means that very often you don't even know the internal psychiatric symptoms of a person who is under psychiatric care. They may be lying to you, right? As that study says, mothers may be reluctant to share delusional ideas. Why? Because they're afraid the kids will be removed from them, for example. So in Lindsay Clancy cases, we'll discuss that offense is going to argue that actually Lindsay Clancy was not even telling her psychiatrist everything, which again, is not rare. It is in fact quite common.

9:09In normal psychiatry, let alone postpartum psychosis or heavy drug interactions or suicidality. And people are not always honest with their psychiatrists. Okay, so in Lindsay Clancy case, the charges that were put before the jury were put before the jury by Judge William Sullivan, and here is what he explained. The commonwealth must prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that any mental disease or defect that may have existed did not deprive the defendant of her ability to behave as the law requires. That is to obey the law. Okay, so under Massachusetts law, basically there are a few requirements in order to determine whether the insanity defense applies. One, she had to understand the nature of what she was doing. For the insanity defense to fail, she had to know what she was doing. Two, she had to appreciate that what she was doing was wrong. You have to know that murder is wrong. You can't think that murdering somebody is right at the time, and or she has to be capable

10:11of conforming her conduct to the requirements of law. Now, there are a series of potential verdicts that we'll get to in a moment. There are nine women and three men on the jury. The four person is an older woman. People are immediately, again, projecting their beliefs about the gender split in American politics onto this jury, or to heavy female jury, therefore they're going to acquit. I don't know. I don't know what they're going to do, because again, the fact pattern here is very complex and also very vague. Right now, she faces three counts of first degree murder. First degree murder in Massachusetts means a clancy intentionally killed her children with deliberate premeditation. Or under a prosecution's other theory with extreme atrocity or cruelty. Now, there's no question, extreme atrocity or cruelty is a part of this. No question. There's no way to read the 911 transcript and not have your heart break. I mean, it's truly devastating. And as far as deliberate premeditation, clearly there is planning. But again, the question is intent. Mentally ill people, like truly mentally ill people cannot have the requisite amount of intent.

11:13They can't have these so-called mens rea. They can't have the mindset necessary to actually be able to commit a crime. Because again, if you are mentally ill to the extent that you can't determine right from wrong and that you're not capable of conforming your conduct to the requirements of law or understand the nature of what you're doing, that's the insanity defense. So if she's found guilty of first degree murder, mandatory sentence of life in prison with no possibility of parole. If she has found not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect, she won't face prison time, but she's not gonna walk away. I said this on the show last week and people are like, well, you know, she theoretically could. She's not going to walk away. Under Massachusetts law, there is no time limit for involuntary commitment at a mental health facility. Andrea Yates, similar case, back in 2001, she drowned five of her children. She eventually was acquitted. She is still in a mental facility in 2026. So the judge is now offering sort of a Chinese menu of possible charge options. I don't like when judges do this, by the way. I think it probably ought to be legally barred.

12:13If a judge is offering several duplicative charges in the attempt to get somebody to say yes to a conviction and then we'll figure out the charge later, I just think that's bad prosecutorial practice, but a couple of the other charge options that were added to the 11th hour include second degree murder in which the jury would have to find that Lindsey Clancy intentionally killed her children, but without free meditation or extremity or cruelty. You gotta not sure how that helps, the prosecution, because again, the intent is the question and manslaughter, which will require jurors to find that Clancy caused her children's death through wanton or reckless conduct. And again, wanton or reckless conduct, typically when it comes to manslaughter is like you were driving drunk. We'll get into the entire timeline of what happened in the Lindsey Clancy case first. Let's talk about zip recruiter. Picture calling customer service about a missing order and navigate that AI menu you explain, the problem get transferred, you explain the problem a second time, at this point you put more work into locating the package than the company that actually shipped it in the first place. And then somebody finally says, let me track that down and they actually do.

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14:17Their son Dawson is born and in 2022, Calon is born. So those are the three kids. And these are very, very small children. Now friends, relatives, coworkers, teachers, Anani and Patrick all described Lindsey Clancy before the psychiatric decline as attentive and organized and loving and active and very, very involved with the kids. After the birth of her last child, Calon. Apparently she started to go into significant mental decline. In September 2022, she had massive increases in anxiety as her return to nursing approach. She searched for psychiatric health and she was diagnosed with generalized anxiety. September 15th, her psychiatrist, Dr. Jennifer Tufts, prescribed searcher lane. The defense said that Clancy's mood and agitation worsened with antidepressants. The Commonwealth emphasized contemporaneous notes did not document psychosis or mania. Now again, as we'll discuss, not every symptom gets described

15:18to psychiatrist. This is part of the problem with insanity defense claims. Not everything is well documented. And also high anxiety can manifest in things that look like psychosis but aren't quite psychosis and aren't quite mania. In October, she started telehealth and psychiatric treatment. Her notes and messages started reflecting anxiety, sleep trouble guilt and feeling disconnected. Late October, she had an adverse reaction to an SSRI. They then added lirazapam. Hydroxazine and bus barone were also used. Now again, as I said, very often in psychiatry, what will happen is that somebody has put on a medication, they've an adverse reaction to the medication, a secondary symptom arises. And now, in order to deal with that secondary symptom, you put a new drug on the premises. You start taking more than one drug. In October 25th, she wrote about resentment that her older children prevented her from experiencing Calendez, though he were a first baby, followed by a wish to feel love and connection. November 16th, she went to South Shore Hospital's emergency department for insomnia and she was prescribed

16:20to the hospital's hospital with a drug called trasidone. And then, a little bit later, she connected with psychiatric nurse practitioner in Julie Paul. The intake documented severe anxiety and insomnia and depression. They added on vloxetine, trasidone, mershazapine, hydroxazine, bus barone, razapam, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet, quiet. well-mapped, this is just the reality. In November 29th, the end of the month, there's a text suggesting that she'd become dependent on a benzo-diasapine. She started having suicidal thoughts. On December 4th, she contacted a suicide hotline. On December 6th, Patrick expressed concern she was over-medicated. For the next couple of weeks, family text described sleep problems fear hopelessness, medication reactions, repeated attempts to obtain care. Her Edinburgh Post-Natal Depression Scale was reported

17:22as 23 and later 17, those are both clinically significant again. The way that you typically diagnose psychiatric conditions is an actual checklist. And if you hit a certain number on the checklist, then you are considered to have the condition. As I say, psychiatry is very, very rudimentary. I keep saying that because it's important for people to understand it. People think that treating the brain is like treating other parts of the body. It really is not at all. In late December, Patrick later told investigators, she had disclosed suicidal thoughts and thoughts of harming the kids. Several treating clinicians testified she denied homicide ill intent or psychosis to them. So again, this goes to people don't tell their psychiatrist, psychiatrist the truth all the time, which informs some of the testimony, as we will see in just a second. December 30th, she went to Massachusetts General Hospital's Emergency Department and then entered McLean Hospital voluntarily. From January 1st to 5th, she was on voluntary psychiatric hospitalization there. Dr. Leah Goodhart testified that Clancy was depressed and anxious at reported suicidal thinking and wanted help.

18:22She did not show psychosis Romania during the admission to night a current plan, identified the children's reasons to live and sought discharge, and she was prescribed yet more trazodone and lorazopham. She had follow up with Dr. Tufts January 6th. She was taking a huge cocktail of drugs January 9th through 16th. Her device history, her search history, showed searches concerning drug interactions, sleep deprivation, psychosis symptoms, schizophrenia hallucinations, intrusive thoughts, depression, bipolar disorder and suicide. The prosecutors would later argue that she was basically searching up rationales that she could later use to defend against her actions. But the defense would argue she was searching that because she was suffering from it. A January 20th query asked, can you treat a sociopath? The prosecution argued again that all of this showed self-monitoring and concealing planning, and the defense said, well, the reason that you are searching up hallucinations is because you're having them. The defense also elicited records of searches about carotid artery cutting the throat into

19:23sampling airbags. January 24th was the day of the murders 2023. Cora, the oldest, attended a routine pediatric appointment, the family played in the snow and built a snowman. 4-13 pm, Apple Max activity examined the route from the home to 3-V that's a Kingston restaurant. The prosecution characterized this as calculating how long a Patrick would be away. The defense noted route searches are routine when ordering food. At about 5-15 pm, Patrick testified he left first for CVS and then for 3-V to pick up the food. Before leaving, he saw Dawson eating and he said, clancy sounds had enacted normal. At 5-23 pm, sorry, at 5-32 pm, CVS surveillance showed Patrick entering the store, 5-33, there's an incoming call from Patrick to her, followed by a 14-second outgoing callback from clancy while the phone remained locked. Apparently she sounded normal, according to Patrick, but he recalled an impression she might be in the middle of something. 5-54, he showed up at the restaurant, 609, he returned home with the food. He found the primary bedroom door unlocked. He forced the entry, he saw blood,

20:26and an open broken window and looked outside. And clancy was lying injured in the yard below, she of course was paralyzed from the waist down, she had cut herself and she had jumped out the window. He asked where the children weren't and she indicated the basement. He found Dawson alone in a rear basement gym office area, shirtless and wearing a diaper. Korah and Calen were together elsewhere in the basement. Resistance bands were on or near their next. Patrick removed the bands and began resuscitation at 6-11, he called 911. The 911 call is absolutely horrifying. The investigators immediately started an investigation, January 8, 25th. They seized all the materials. The children's taxicology was negative for sedation or poisoning substances, there was no evidence they'd been drugged. And she was charged February 7, 2023 with three counts each of first-degree murder strangulation or suffering and assault and battery with a dangerous weapon. There were 21 days of testimony, there were some 85 witnesses and we're going to go through some of the key witnesses here. Yesterday was the closing arguments. Lindsay Clancy herself

21:29did not testify before the jury. Now again, that is not a rarity. Very often the person in issue doesn't testify because they don't want to be subjected to cross examination. And the jury was told you're not allowed to draw adverse inference from her decision not to testify again. Her affect in the courtroom was a major issue because people were saying that she looked cold or disconnected again. It is unclear to me at this point. I assume she is still on a significant cocktail of drugs at this point. Now we're going to go through the prosecution case. As the prosecution basically argues here, and Lindsay Clancy was profoundly depressed but she was not psychotic. They argued that she knew exactly what she was doing, that she understood that it was wrong, and that she deliberately executed a plan to kill her kids and then commit suicide. The prosecution says that she was desperately unhappy and suicidal, and that she had come to view her children as an obstacle to killing herself. So in that theory, killing the kids was part of a rational plan. Right. Basically, if I kill the kids, then I can kill myself, which theoretically

22:33is different from a psychotic solution and voices made me think that killing the kids was necessary or morally right. So they would need to establish that whatever psychiatric problems, they did not deprive her of criminal responsibility. So that is their case. In a moment, we're going to go through the prosecution witnesses, the defense witnesses and the rest of the case. First, most Americans spend decades putting their money into a 401k. Every paycheck's money goes in to watch the number grow. Maybe you rebalance occasionally. How many people actually know everything that allowed to do with that money? Here's an option that surprises people. Certain physical golden silver can be held inside a self-directed IRA, depending on the retirement account you have, qualified IRA or 401k assets may be eligible to roll into a self-directed precious metals IRA through a properly executed rollover without triggering current taxes or early withdrawal penalties. You don't have to choose gold, but you should at least know that the choice is there, especially given the fact that the stuff you're holding in cash while the government, very rarely government makes the dollar more valuable. This is where golden crest metals can help. They'll walk you through the process from

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24:38Correct? Correct. A few days after this happened, did you receive a phone call from the defendant while she was at Brigham and Women's Hospital? I think it was like a week or so after, yeah. And what did the defendant say at that time about what had happened with the children? Uh, she didn't talk about our kids. She talked about what she went through. And what did she say about what she went through? She said she heard a man's voice telling her that if she didn't do it now, she'd lose her chance. Okay, so again, that is him testifying that that's what Lindsey said later. Right. Now her chief psychiatrist throughout a lot of this period was Dr. Jennifer Tufts. She claims that there were no signs of psychosis or mania. Now, again, I'm not accusing Dr. Tufts of

25:39saying something that is untrue. I will say that if there were signs of psychosis or mania and Tufts had missed them, that would have been problem, obviously. You were asked about your January 23rd, 2023 session with the defendant. Um, defends counsel asked if you had, you know, recommended a hospital evaluation for her on that day and you said, no, um, why not? Um, because she was completely denying any suicidal ideation or homicidal ideation. Um, there were no signs of psychosis or mania. Um, so there were no um, serious uh, signs that her safety or that anyone else's safety was at risk. And during that session, did she ever tell you that she planned to harm herself or the children? No. Now again, as we will talk about and the reason I keep putting focus on this is because

26:44I think it is true. Just because the psychiatrist testifies that they don't, that a person who is psychotic is not fully psychotic or is not expressing many people who have suicidal ideation will not tell their psychiatrist they're suicidal ideated. Now again, maybe she did or maybe more maybe she was not suicidal ideated and actually this whole thing was a plot. I mean, that that is the question of fact that is being presented. So again, the prosecution's case is that she was not psychotic. It's just a press but not psychotic. It's who's not in the throws of a manic episode. Sometimes a manic episode and bipolar one can manifest its hallucinations and hearing of voices, for example, they're saying none of that happened. So the prosecution also called a doctor Gregory Sadhoff was a forensic psychiatrist for the FBI for cancer terrorism who says that she did this quickly and methodically. Did the defendant tell you if the voice that the voice told her where to kill the children? No. Did the voice tell her how to kill the children? No.

27:44Did the voice tell her what to use to kill the children? No. Did the voice tell her in what order to kill the children? No. Did the voice tell her where to try to kill herself? No. Did the voice tell her in what way to kill herself? No. The fact that the voice according to the defendant, the voice didn't tell her any of those things but instead just said kill the kid so you can kill yourself. Is that significant in your evaluation in any way? Yes. How so? Well in the small amount of time that Miss Clancy had in the home without her husband, it was important in order to carry this out as well as her suicide to do this quickly, methodically, and the like. So basically the case that he's making is that she didn't hear a voice, the voice is made up.

28:45She knew that she had to act quickly in order to dispose of the children, murder the kids before her husband got home. The prosecution also called a forensic psychologist named Dr. Kirk Hyalbrun. He said that she had bipolar two, not bipolar one with manic episodes. So again, the difference between bipolar one and bipolar two is that bipolar one requires one full manic episode. A manic episode is elevated, irritable, energized mood, can manifest with hallucinations and usually last at least a week. So you're talking like a major psychiatric episode. bipolar two usually requires a hypomanic episode. A hypomanic episode is a milder form of mania that generally doesn't impede your functioning. So the idea would be that if she had never been diagnosed with bipolar one, it would have been surprising for her to hear a hallucination. Now, there are cases in which bipolar two has manifest with hallucinations, but this is Dr. Hyalbrun. I ended up with a diagnosis, making a diagnosis of bipolar two disorder, which is a slightly less,

29:47not slightly, it's a less severe form of bipolar disorder. And Dr. why did you diagnose with bipolar two and not bipolar? Because bipolar, as I said, is a more severe kind of diagnosis. It's more noticeable. And if you had a bipolar diagnosis, then I would want to see something that looks that clearly and definitely looks like a manic episode. And I did not see any evidence of that before January 24th of 2023. Okay. Horrifyingly, Hyalbrun also testified that Clancy told her kids to go to God while strangling them. Again, it's just that the case itself is horrifying. And she's on a level of pure, unbridled, evil action. The immediate normal human response is death penalty. Obviously, clearly, but that's not the question. The question is again, the insanity defense here.

30:48And further evidence that you saw for the suicide combined with ultra-sidphilicide? There was. One of the things that she said when asked about what happened is that in the course of strangling each child, she said, go to God, baby, go to God. And that was part of her expectation that she and the children would be together in heaven with God. One doctor, Avram Mack, also testified for the prosecution as a forensic psychiatrist that she retained capacity required for having criminal responsibility, which of course is the entire question. As whether she had the mental capacity to know what she was doing was wrong and knew what she was doing as she was doing it. The various mental status examinations done by the doctors at the Brigham generally showed normal mental status. One particular portion of the record reviews

31:50their review of whether or not she could have the ability to make a decision. In that case, a change to her health care proxy. And so the physicians there were able to examine her closely in order to understand that she did have decision-making capacity. And that's an example of something you reviewed in the record that was close in time to the incident itself, correct? Yes. Okay, so the closing argument was made by the Plymouth County Assistant DA, woman named Jennifer Sprag. And she said, again, the descriptions here are pretty horrifying, because the case itself is horrifying. Here she was talking about the bodies of the children. She killed them and she left them there on the floor with the bands around their next. She didn't bring them up to their beds and put them with their favorite stuffed animal and cover them up gently and lovingly, leaving them peacefully there. No. She left them discarded on

32:55the basement floor like broken toys because she was done playing the game. You know to a moral certainty. She is guilty. Okay, so Sprag's case was that there was a rational order to the killing of the kids and that because she demonstrated planning capacity, this means she wasn't mentally all the time. And a fence would argue, obviously, that planning capacity does not mean they're not mentally ill when they're in the throws of doing stuff. This, by the way, that latter part is actually true. There are people who are mentally ill who have the capacity to plan action. The question is whether they know that difference between right and wrong when they're doing it. Again, I keep coming back to the legal standard as that's the issue of the case. Here was the assistant D.H.N.F. Sprag on the rational order of killing of the children. You know, it was deliberate pre-meditation because of the way she killed them and the way they died. And the order also shows a rationality. The order should kill them in because who are in Dawson

33:58are older. If she had tried to strangle one in front of the other, they would have known this is bad. And they would have tried to intervene or run and hide. And she had a very limited time. She didn't have time to try to find a child who ran off and hid. So taking Dawson first and moving him to a separate room, having coerced him with Kallen and having Dawson go in another room, that's rational. That makes sense. That's ordered thinking. Okay, now again, you could theoretically have ordered thinking within a disordered mind. And that happens fairly frequently mental in this. But the case that the prosecution is making is that her entire goal was to kill the kids. And not only that, the prosecution actually argued that she was not fully attempting to commit suicide. That if you're trying to kill yourself, then you actually cut yourself in a different way. And you don't jump from a second story window. You jump from a higher height. Here was the DA. She cut herself. But you saw the cuts on the meaty meaty pot of her arm

35:00horizontally. No arteries, no major blood vessels. Did it need to be safe to the next day? The one that interconnected need to be stitched at all. She knew as a nurse, those weren't going to kill her. But she was trying. And then going out of the window, 12, 13 feet. She landed the wrong way and ended up paralyzed on the frozen ground. But the idea that following out of a 12-foot window is going to definitely kill you, not necessarily. Okay, so then the DA argued in the end, she was depressed, but not psychotic. And this is the case of the prosecution. She was depressed, right? And she was trying to deal with that, trying to get help for that. But it wasn't the fault of the providers that she was struggling with this, or that she wasn't getting better. They were doing the best they could. You have the record. You heard the testimony.

36:02They were doing the best they could with the information she provided them. And that wasn't always accurate information. That wasn't always the full picture. And they were doing the best they could with her level of cooperation and compliance with the plan. Okay, so that is the prosecution's case. The defense by contrast argues the Lindsey Clancy was suffering from severe postpartum psychosis. And that that was actually superimposed on bipolar depressive illnesses and exacerbated by bad psychiatric treatment and mixed medication. And they presented a lot of medical evidence talking about everything from suicidal thoughts, to severe insomnia, to medication problems, to psychiatric treatments, and ultimately psychotic symptoms. So the defense called a bunch of witnesses. Those witnesses included Lindsey's mom who read a text from Lindsey Clancy asking for help is about three months before the murder of her children. If this is a copy of the text that you're referring to. Yes, it is. Would you read that for the jury?

37:07Mom, will you please come up and stay with me for a bit. I'm really sick. Something is wrong. I had horrible insomnia all night and I just don't know how I'm going to get through the day. I started taking the medicine. My doctor prescribed for anxiety. And I think it's made things worse. It's just really scary and I don't want to be alone. He says three months before the killing. Dr. Philip Brezenick is one of the doctors who is called to testify. And he says that Clancy was psychotic on that day. Ms. Clancy's case, she had not only a command hallucination on the day that she killed her children. She had was known as a delusion of influence. That is not only did she hear a command, but she felt that her body was taken over by an external force where she was in a

38:09clean state and did not have control of her own body. It was almost like she was a puppet and someone else was pulling the strings. Another defense witness, Dr. Donald Kondi, clinical and forensic psychologist psychiatrist, explained that it's also possible that she was lying to her own care providers about her symptoms because she wanted to be with the kids. And she knew that she testified to her psychiatrist about what was happening that the kids might be removed from her or she might be involuntarily committed. Would you agree that there are reasons that a woman would not tell the doctor or minimize the symptoms out of fear? Yes, what kind of fear? Fear of what? Well, in the records, it stated that Ms. Clancy reported she was worried that her children would be taken away from her, perhaps by the Department of Children and Families, if she reported very severe symptoms. The other thing is, as a health care professional,

39:12boards of registration sometimes take a dim view of people who have been in treatment for certain psychiatric illnesses. And so she might have been concerned about her nursing license, but that's speculation. So there are other reasons why a person may be concerned about telling health care providers, mandated reporters that they're hearing voices, correct? Yes. The Clancy Defense Attorney, and Kevin Reddington, his concluding argument was she went from happy mom, happy family to this horror show. That's mental illness. Let's take a picture of the family. Turn into what the kids this.

40:13Let's take a picture of her hospital bed paralyzed from a waste of time. Damn medicine and the lousy medical care that she got. You can troop as many paid experts as you want to come in here and tell a jury, oh well she didn't say that she heard voices inside her head. She said she heard voices from outside her head. She said she was making chicken McNaggets. There was a bowl in the sulfur. She wasn't making chicken McNaggets. She said something as I think and I'm used and I try real hard to tell you what my opinion is that this woman was acting in her right mind when these children were killed. So many people are taking a lot of messages away from this. As I said at the top, I don't see how you can. I don't see how you can. This is an open question of fact. This case is an open question of fact. When people show up and they protest outside the courtroom and they project their own feelings onto a case that is horrifically terrible a tragedy

41:19in every element and act perhaps of the gravest evil. When you project your own issues onto that, you're doing something wrong and that is thrown all sides. All the hot takes on every one of these topics. They need to stop. They're bad for the country and they're also just bad thinking. Ricky Schlaught spoke with some clancy supporters outside the courtroom from the New York Post and she described what she saw. As much as we might want tangible symbols or stories that reflect our critiques of society, sometimes things are just not that clear. And while yes, I think that some of what the supporters were saying were callous, I think it was also the result of a lot of just genuine suffering that brought them here. And in some ways, one woman told me that this was therapy for her. Is she sat beside the ashes of her own child who took his life and she blames

42:19a failure of the mental health system? And you know, I think that's probably the best snapshot that I can give of how people are doing and why people are here in the first place. Now again, I don't think people should be there in the first place. I think there are a lot of reasons to be concerned about about women's health, lots of reasons to be concerned about psychiatry. But turning this into a political football is to me an act of patent looniness. I see no rationale for it whatsoever. Well, clancy's defense attorney Kevin Reddington, he politicized himself. He came out and he said that clancy is concerned about women's rights. What in the world are we talking about here? What are we talking about? What the hell does this have to do? A woman does not have a right to kill her children, obviously. What does this have to do with feminism or women being put under the boot of the page? What are we even doing here? Why? Why are we doing it? Such a marvelous, sweet, innocent person. She's just amazing and so strong and just trying so

43:21had to get up from she's just been beat down for three and a half years and she feels that she's had a fair trial with the judge and the jury's been very attentive and all he can do is hope for the best. You may announce this about the description. Do you want to say she said anything about women raising postpartum psychosis? She's very concerned, especially as a labor and delivery nurse. She's very concerned about women's rights, the fact that women are pretty much marginalized. I think it's readily apparent that DSM is a joke. I couldn't get into the social implications in the trial understandably, but if the United States would take a lesson from Europe, Belgium, England, France, Peru, a lot of these countries, they take care of their women that have psychosis, keep them with their babies. They don't rip the babies away from them and put the women in jail. I mean, I'm sorry. This is not a moment for political activism when your clients is on trial for a triple homicide against her own children. So the jury is currently out. They

44:26they've asked for some additional pieces of evidence. They sent a note to the trial judge. Apparently, they asked to see two bags of pills that were entered into evidence, along with the knife that Clancy used in her suicide attempt. I'm not sure exactly what they think they're going to find there. Maybe the idea is that she was over-medicated. Look how many pills this is or maybe they're trying to see, you know, how big the knife was, which she really trying to hurt herself was a big enough to really hurt herself. How sharp was it? I'm not sure what they're looking for there. Okay. So I told you I would get to my take where I on the jury. The burden of proof here is very, very high for the prosecution. Very high. He's again, the behavior here conforms with the mental illness theory of the case. Were this a preponderance of the evidence case, meaning like civil standard, preponderance of the evidence just means majority of the evidence. And I might be inclined to convict where I on the jury, I would be inclined to find for the defense on the basis of the insanity defense. I would. And then I would, and then I would hope and pray that Lindsey Clancy ended up involuntarily committed for literally the rest of her life,

45:31which is what happened to Andrea Gates. But that is just me following the facts. And I can find, I can see others who follow the facts differently. My friend Ali Beth Stucky, for example, she followed the facts and found the opposite conclusion. This is one of the reasons why I'm sort of perturbed by the radical polarization and opinion over this case. The fact pattern just is not clear. The fact pattern is complex. The burden of proof on the prosecution is high. And so I think if everybody had a little bit more grace for one another while looking at the actual fact patterns would be a lot easier to come to the proper conclusions from this case. And the proper conclusion from this case is that horrible tragedies happen. Psychiatric care in general is extraordinarily blunt instrument. And that sometimes acts of horror and acts of evil don't have the marks of clear justice that we would like to see in life. I wish they did. I wish they did. But to pretend away the complexity in the name of political narrative to me,

46:33it's bad for the country. It's bad for our justice system. It's just not great in general. We'll get some more on this in a moment. First, everybody wants to talk about what AI could do. Business owners have a more useful question. What can it take off my plate today? And this is where AI gets kind of interesting. Not another window you have to open. Not another tool your employees have to remember to use. It should just be built into the work they're already doing. And that's the idea behind net suite next. Net suite next. Weaves AI into the tools your business already relies on. It can serve as insights when you need them. Put AI agents to work on routine tasks and problems. Let you ask complex questions in plain English like you're talking to a knowledgeable colleague. What's a repetitive task you would happily never personally do again. The bigger question isn't whether your company will use AI. It's how AI changes the way your people actually work together. Net suite has put together a new expert created guide specifically about that. Aligning for the agentic era how AI is changing every day work. It looks at how AI could reshape work across an organization and how businesses can position themselves to take advantage of it. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, get our business guide. Aligning for the agentic era how AI

47:33is changing every day work at net suite.com slash Shapiro. The guy is free to you at net suite.com slash Shapiro again. That's net suite.com slash Shapiro. It's more on this in a moment. First, there is a point where enjoying good food starts feeling like a budgeting exercise. You find a restaurant you love the bill arrives to realize that trying a new restaurant has become a pretty serious financial commitment. That's one reason that cook unity caught my attention. The experience is surprisingly close to what people actually want from restaurants in the first place. Genuinely good food made by real chefs. Cook unity is the first chef led meal delivery service that prepares meals in small batches inside local microkitchens across the country instead of producing them in giant factories. And honestly, you can tell because meals don't feel mass produced. The food tastes like somebody actually cooked it because somebody actually did. Cook unity works with Michelin, star chefs and James Beard award winners, food network personalities who create meals that are then prepared in local kitchens and delivered fresh never frozen. My wife and I, we'd like to order out Vietnamese sometimes and food is really good. Cook unity probably has it and probably has it better to be honest with you. There are hundreds of meals to choose from the menu is constantly changing whether you're looking for a high protein options gluten-free meals,

48:37pescatarian dishes, Mediterranean food Italian food Mexican food Thai food or just something different from your normal routine. But lots of options taste what happens when real award-winning chefs make fresh small batched meals just for you. Go to cookunity.com slash pen or enter code ben before check out to get 50% off your first order. That's 50% off your first order by using code ben or heading on over to cookunity.com slash ben. Okay. From the very serious to the completely idiotic. So our politics is getting dumber by the day legitimately dumber every single day. So the president of the United States is very angry with the Canadians. Oh man, whatever. Again, I like, you know what really helped is if the president had not declared their gigantic tariffs coming on Canada and thus led to the accession of Mark Carney to the prime ministership. There's been much better for us if Pierre Paulier have been the prime minister of Canada rather than Mark Carney. In any case, the president is in a big terrified with the Canadians. And apparently the way we're going to win that terrified is by randomly renaming things. So he had already proposed renaming the Gulf of Mexico, the Gulf of America,

49:38which I kind of liked because at least the Gulf of Mexico, I mean America's on both sides of that Gulf. So I'm fine with that. Hell, I think we should stop renaming lakes and Gulfs. I think we should just rename the moon. I mean, we found it. Everyone knew it was there, but we were the ones who got there first right of discovery. We should call it the moon of America. It belonged to us, the moon. You just projected giant American flag on that sucker. We should name all of the various peaks after presidents in Elon Musk. But the president decided yesterday that in revenge for the battle of Montfrey, all he was going to rename Lake Ontario Lake America with his pen. And I mean, all right, here we go. So this is Lake Ontario in Canada and in the United States. But we're going to make a little change. We're going to call it something different than Lake Ontario. We're going to call it Lake America. And all it takes is a good pen in some intelligence. So Lake Ontario,

50:45that's gone. Lake America. So now we have a lake. And now we have a Gulf because we have the Gulf of America. Now we have Lake America without the off. Thank you very much, everybody. Enjoy Lake America. Conquest would be this easy. Okay. Like, can we just do this? Why didn't you do that with Greenland? We just cross out the name of it and just call it like America land. And then we should probably just for that hell of it. I don't know. It's probably take like Fiji. I don't call it America landland. And then we should probably, you know, just because it's kind of nice over there. Just grab coaste rica. I'll call it America. America landland. Kind of. So Mark, the Canadians having to

51:48pretend to take this seriously is kind of funny. Like, I have to say that the Canadians getting very, very grumpy over this. Guys, let's be real. Your country. It exists at our sufferance. Mark, Karney put out a statement, quote, the name Lake Ontario comes from the one dot word on Ontario. Oh, are you? Oh, whatever. Who cares? Which appropriately means the lake is beautiful. The lake is big. Fair. The name is more than 400 years old, pre dating, both the Confederation of Canada and the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America. We know that America is changing. They're trading relationships. They're foreign policies. They're national monuments. They're hydrinums. Canadians also know that naming reality means calling it Lake Ontario. Then now and always. Honestly, like, I feel like President Trump would let he should have named it in English, what it's called in Wendat. That's how President Trump describes things. Right. What if he had just crossed out Lake Ontario and hit written Lake is beautiful. Lake is big. I would have been into it. But to be fair,

52:50this is all stupid at a waste of time. Okay. But don't worry. It gets stupider. I'm Duel Elsa Head decided that he was going to rename Melania Trump, the first lady of the United States Natalie Harp because they've decided in the same way that they decided that Democrats during the 2024 campaign that they were just going to put out some nonsense about how JD Vance had copulated with the couch. Now they're putting out statements that the president is sleeping with Natalie Harp on the basis of zero information. I'm Duel Elsa. I said if we're just renaming everything else, when are we making this official? Natalie Harp, first lady of the United States. And that was so good. That joke was so good. That JB Pritzker, slightly less fat than he used to be, did the same thing on the Trump tower. He crossed out Trump and wrote Natalie. Trump tower is renamed to Natalie tower. And honestly, you got to feel a little bit bad for Natalie Harp because she's kind of just standing there and she's catching sprays. Map quest put out a statement saying that they were not changing the name, which means obviously must declare war on map quest. It's the only way.

53:52Map quest belong to us now. All your map are ours. Government seizures of map quest. Our politics is incredibly stupid, incredibly, incredibly, like there are serious things happening on planet earth and our politics remains undeniably and unbelievably stupid. As we run into $40 trillion in debt, as we run into a military that needs significant rebuilding, as we run into a nation that can't seem to hold it together over issues as basic as whether boys are boys and girls are girls. I don't know, man, I feel like we have better things to do than this crap. But apparently not, apparently not. We also don't have anything better to do if you're a Democrat. Then continue to promote the idea that America is deeply and unabashedly racist. John Assoff, who seems to want to play JFK in a new movie, but he's not a very good actor. And also doesn't have the awesome Massachusetts accent. He is out there claiming that his opponents

54:53stand for bigotry, neo-Nazism and the clan. Do they though? Is that a thing happening? The state of Georgia rejects hatred. The state of Georgia rejects bigotry. The state of Georgia rejects neo-Nazism. The state of Georgia rejects the clan. Cool. I mean, agree? But don't worry, Democrats have more to say about all this. Representative Ayanna Presley, who, as you may have noticed, is a representative in our Congress. She says the Confederacy is alive and well, which is weird because it's not. So there's that, like you are in Congress, Madam. So here we go.

56:05The Confederacy is still alive and well. And our Blackness will still be alive and well. Zingan Phopia is out of the TQ. It's not going to end with one person. Wise words. I'm lying. Those are not wise words. Jasmine Crockett, who lost to James Celerigo in that Texas Senate primary. She says that we can no longer lie on the DOJ. We continue to see these mysterious deaths taking place in places like Mississippi and historically, whether it's Nolan Wells or Teja or the long list of names that we could go through, Sean, that are being found hung or otherwise under these mysterious circumstances. When it is clear to everyone on the outside, the Geologist fell into investigate. We used to rely on the Department of Justice to go in and we don't have that.

57:10So she is claiming that there is a spade of unsolved murders of Black people being hang, like old-style KKK hang. Miss Rachel is also claiming this. Why is this children's host from YouTube who just buys into every left-wing, agit prop nonsense campaign and then mirrors it back? Again, Miss Rachel is face tattoo syndrome, but embodied as a human. So face tattoo syndrome, as I've said before, is where somebody gets a tattoo on their face and then you stare at them because they have a tattoo on their face. And they're like, why are you noticing my tattoo? What are you looking at? It's like your tattoo. Miss Rachel is the one who decided that she was going to become extraordinarily political. And then when you note that thing, then they say, how dare you target our beloved children's host, Miss Rachel? I mean, it's clown nose on, clown nose off, but for children. So clown nose off, or her to explain that Black people are being hanged from trees randomly. We just haven't noticed it. These listen to the Black community. Black people don't hang themselves from trees.

58:12There's been at least seven Black people found hanging from trees. Now, I would be perturbed if it turned out that lots of Black people were being hanged from trees by presumably random white people. It turns out here is a Black police chief in Raleigh, North Carolina, explaining that one of these people hanged himself and they do have a video of him hanging himself. One of my favorite things about left wing race baiting is when people say things couldn't possibly be true and it turns out to be true. So I remember when Barack Obama said that he's about Ferguson, Missouri, Michael Brown. The claim was that he said, hands up, don't shoot and that he was shot in the front. He was actually, he was shot in the back. He was actually shot in the front and all this. And Barack Obama said, people wouldn't just make that up. Nobody would make that up. Now, I made it up. Now, I got Miss Rachel. Nobody Black people don't just hang themselves from trees. Well, I mean, actually lots of people hang themselves. It turns out. So here's a police chief who happens to be Black and Raleigh, North Carolina, explaining. At 159 p.m., video shows the young man carrying an electrical cord walking towards the tree

59:18by himself. Between 206 p.m. and 207 p.m., video captures actual incident taken place. No one else to see in an area when this incident occurred. Okay, well, it turns out that a bunch of other cases that people keep citing like tray read to Miss DeCippie. Turns out it was ruled the suicide by the medical examiner. There's a 16 year old Congolese immigrant down hanging from a tree ruled the suicide by the medical examiner. There is a person named Tania Nicole Miller in Florida, 27 year old woman, down hanging in a park, suicide by medical examiner. There's literally one case outstanding. The investigation is still pending. Thousands of people hang themselves across the United States, unfortunately, every year. And white people die by suicide by hanging significantly more than Black people. But again, our politics must remain stupid. And in the stupidest places, it is indeed the stupidest. So I have to give a shout out to my old home state of California, LA man.

1:00:20LA is a disaster area. And all my friends in LA keep telling me how much of a disaster area it is. I'm like, you need to leave. Like, well, I can't afford to leave. My, well, can you afford to stay? So I have to say I'm getting a kick. It's a hoot to watch various people running for Mayor of LA, meaning Nithya ramen, a crazy socialist council person there. And Karen Bass, competing to show who is more incompetent. So Nithya ramen put out one of the great tweets of all time. It really is spectacular. And here's what you tweeted out quote, the Los Feliz neighborhood council alerted our office in late 2025 to the need for a crosswalk at sunset Boulevard and Bay Street, which has just been completed. Thank you to our incredible CD4 field team for continuing to problem solve, push for solutions and make our streets safer. It's then wanted a crosswalk. This tweet is dated August 26th. You may notice late 2025 is a long time ago. So it took them a minimum of eight to nine months to paint a crosswalk. Now, what's hilarious about

1:01:22this is that the pictures show the before and after the before is a street that is diorily cracked, like gigantic cracks all over the street. Like it's in horrible shape. Like open cracks. And then the after shot shows the exact same street with the exact same cracks with some paint on them. And it took them nine months to do that. And then over this, it says, improving our neighborhood street infrastructure. Did you improve it all that much? I don't know. I feel like the cracks are still there. So you left the cracks, but you painted over the cracks. That is the Nithya ramen campaign slogan. We paint over cracks in belated fashion. Well, California, it's a bad place. And it's a place where you need to save money. So, you know, folks, as I've said before, Pure Talks, the place you save money for spending too much money on your cell phone coverage. Why don't you just fix that unlimited data for as low as 3499 a month. No contract pure talk.com slash Shapiro. That's the way to do it. You're in California right now. You're spending too much money on literally everything else. So pure talk.com slash Shapiro is a great

1:02:23quick fix. Okay. So competing with Nithya ramen for the mayoralty. Karen Bass, who also wants to run for mayor. She's the current mayor. She's very bad at it. She is bragging about how she didn't repair a pot hole. So she's even worse. Nithya ramen is like, I'm going to leave this street cracked and put some pain on it nine months later. Karen Bass is like, somebody told me about a pot hole. I'm going to tell you about how I didn't fix it. Here's Karen Bass. Hey mayor bass. I found this pot hole here on Melrose and Gardner Street. Hoping you could just send some folks down here to just remedy that for us. I Simone, I saw your post. So I want you to know that city crews were out here today at noon. But unfortunately there was a car that was here. So we couldn't repair the pot hole. So you know what we did? We put up these no parking signs. So that hopefully there won't be anybody parked here tomorrow morning and the city crews will be back in the future. If you have any problems like this, you can call 3-1-1. If it's graffiti, if it's a pond hole,

1:03:28our ripets just ran them trash. So thank you Simone. Thank you for being a great LA citizen. We're going to get this done. And then she went and bought something. And then she bought a donut. So you're bragging about not repairing the pot holes. So the lady's like, can you repair this pot hole? Like, nope. Best I can do the sign. World's worst episode of Bond stars. Incredible, incredible stuff. You know, I was going to solve your problem, but I decided instead not to. What I love about that actually is that she put up the sign and then she's standing next to the sign and the car's gone. There's no car there. You can still see the pot hole right there. So right now it would be like an amazing time for them to come fix it. But nope, she put up a sign. So your competition for mayor in LA is between a lady who takes nine months to paint lines on a street and a lady who's asked to fill a pot hole and put up a no parking sign. You're doing great, California. It's going awesome. Well,

1:04:28your governor is also doing an amazing job. So Gavin Newsom, apparently he has 5,000 bottles of wine in his house. Now for a for a sort of champagne socialist, he has a lot of champagne. He was asked about this because again, he has his $7.5 million residence in Sacramento featuring a personal wellness oasis, a resort style pool, a full size tennis court and a private casita and a wine seller that apparently has like 5,000 bottles of wine in there. Apparently, he didn't know about the number of the bottles of wine. Here is Gavin Newsom explaining. No, I never felt it. I just not even know what had that much till I read that in your newspaper. I literally didn't even know. I seriously, by the way, I put books in there. I don't know if you saw the photos. There's no wine here. It's books. Yeah, trust me. It's my only inheritance from my father. Yeah, it's only inheritance from his father. He grew up dirt rich. So yeah, Gavin Newsom,

1:05:30what a state, guys. You're doing great. You're doing great. I love one Gavin Newsom Brags about investment into California. When it's not investment into California, it's investment into businesses located in California. It's kind of awesome. Already folks, you thought we reached the end of the show. Wrong you are. We have much more including the Texas Senate race. Somehow our Republicans going to find a way to lose in Texas. Yeah, plus Democrats continue to defend Hassan Piker because apparently they've made some sort of packed with him. Some sort of blood packed with Hassan Piker. We'll get to all that in a moment. First, you have to become a member to watch it. Become a member. Use coach Shapiro. Check out for two months free on all annual plans. Click that link in the description and join us. We got to more on this in a moment. First, everybody knows somebody who's been starting a business for like the last seven years. You know, they got the idea, they have the name, they explain the business model to you at dinner a million times, and then they've sold nothing.

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