‘El Guapo’: The Spanish PM standing up to Trump

0:00This is the Guardian. Today, the one European leader brave enough to stand up to Trump. When the US and Israel audaciously attacked Iran just over two weeks ago, there was very little in the way of condemnation from Western leaders. Wary of Riling Trump, and careful not to jeopardize alliances, most opted to stay quiet. I can say we're doing everything and have done everything we can, at speed to make sure that we are properly protecting our citizens. No, no, no, no. I'm not talking about the hope of the American President, that these are quick, pruner to indicate. And the British working together to protect both the US and the British in joint bases where we jointly locate.

1:00Except for one. Pedro Sanchez. We will not be complicit in something that is bad for the world, and that is also contrary to our values and interests, just because we might fear reprisals from some. And it's not the first time the Spanish Prime Minister has criticized the Trump administration. He objected to the capture of President Nicolas Maduro in Venezuela. President Trump seems to be the one who's saying, I'm making the decisions about Venezuela. Yeah, and I think this is a mistake. He condemned Israel's decimation of Gaza. In Israel's interest to work for peace, and today peace means establishment of the other's time state. When much of Europe has towed Trump's line, Spain's leader has become an outlier on the world stage. How come and why now?

2:03From the Guardian. I'm Gashi Neckbar. Today in focus, how Pedro Sanchez became Trump's fiercest critic. Guy Hedgeko, you're a jealous based in Madrid, the former editor-in-chief of LPAE's English edition. Welcome to today in focus. Now, first things first, who is Pedro Sanchez? Well, Pedro Sanchez is a trained economist. He's someone who worked his way up through the Spanish Socialist Party. And then he became prime minister in 2018. The Socialists become Spain's seventh PM since the return of democracy and the first to take office after a no-confidence vote. Quite soon after that, it became clear that he had a pretty progressive agenda in many areas. For example, when it came to feminist reforms or reforms to promote the rights of LGBTQ people,

3:05and he was very committed to the green economy as well. And so he starts to be seen much more as a fairly strident left-wing figure, which I suppose at the time is quite unusual in Europe. And for people who don't know him or what he looks like, what he sounds like, if you imagine that Trump is described as this orange permit and guy with a two-pay, incredibly bellicose, how would you describe Sanchez? I suppose one of the most eye-catching things about Sanchez is he's good-looking. And many people would say we haven't had many particularly good-looking prime ministers in Spain in the democratic era. He's very suave as well. He looks very much at ease in front of the camera. He seems comfortable when he's communicating. That sets him apart, for example, from Mariana Rajoy, his immediate predecessor, who is very awkward. Sanchez speaks very good English. He's the first Spanish prime minister to speak good English. Thank you very much. Good morning. I've come to Munich to meet with friends and allies. So on the international stage, he looks very much at ease as well.

4:08You could argue that his looks at times of events have worked against him. People have called him El Guapo, the handsome one. And they almost used that as a weapon against him to suggest that he's a bit vacuous. Right. But I think overall it probably hasn't done him all that much harm. So, as you've said, he's served as prime minister since 2018, being head of the country's socialist workers party, charming, suave, handsome, all that stuff. Guy, how has he actually done in the job? Well, it all depends on who you talked to. Because Spanish politics, it's so divided and so polarized. It was before Pedro Sanchez became prime minister. And I think that has a lot to do with the reforms he's pushed through, whether it's feminist reforms or the green transition, or, for example, being really the first Spanish prime minister to tackle thoroughly the issue of historical memory in terms of the legacy of the dictatorship of Francisco Franco. He's really gone for those issues pretty head on. And that has drawn a massive backlash from the right who suggests that he's deliberately

5:12trying to divide the country, deepening existing divisions. I think the left would say that he's simply made necessary reforms. One of the issues which has really set him apart has been immigration. He has made the argument that Spain needs immigrants. Its economy, its social security system, its pensions will need a large influx of migrants contributing to the economy in order to sustain the Spanish state. At the beginning of April, his government is beginning a legalization process, a mass legalization of undocumented migrants, which is expected to benefit at least half a million undocumented migrants, and quite possibly up to a million or so. That obviously makes him something of an outlier in Europe, because even in the UK, Keir Starmer isn't talking about immigration in those terms. Some say we've gone too far, that we're going against the current, but I would like to ask you, when did recognition rights become something radical?

6:13When did empathy become something exceptional? The Spain is above all a welcoming country, and this is the path we choose. Dignity, community, and justice. However, he has had a lot of problems, I suppose over the last year or two years, in particular, in terms of corruption scandals. There has been a judicial investigation by a judge into his wife, begone your gourmet into her business affairs. So far, no charges have been brought against her, and there is a feeling, certainly, among many on the left, that the judge who is carrying out his investigation is doing it for political motives, because so far, he hasn't been able to bring anything concrete against her. But Pedro Sanchez's brother, David Sanchez, is due to go on trial in a few weeks over allegations of using his brother's influence to get a job. Also, two very senior figures in the socialist party are both facing allegations

7:14of running a graft scheme, and they have both been in custody. It's quite a messy political situation for him at home, and as you've said, you know, he's quite polarising within the country itself. But, Guy, just how popular is he, and has he been? Well, the polling reveals that he's doing okay in polls. He's doing better than your opposition leader. And he's doing better than the far right leader, Santiago Abascal, as well. So he's doing okay, but what polls don't reflect is how much of a figure of hate he has become for the right, and the right believes that he's running this sort of government that's bogged down by corruption. They've been saying that he's using the National Statistics Institute, which carries out polling, and it's been carrying out least of skewed polls in his favour. So they say that he's been using institutions in his favour. Guy, he has been making waves outside of Spain for taking pretty robust positions on global

8:16fairs over the last couple of years. What kind of things has he been saying? One of the most obvious issues that he's spoken out about has been the issue of Gaza, and very soon after Israel began its military response to the October 7th attacks, he was being quite vocal about warning Israel against violating human rights. The whole world is shocked at the image of what we see coming from gas every day. The number of Palestinians killed is truly unbearable. And I think quite early on, he was one of, if not the most, vocal European leader in that sense. And then in 2024, along with Ireland and Norway, the Spanish government acknowledged Palestinian statehood. With this decision, Spain joins the more than 140 countries that already recognise Palestine. This is a historic decision that has a single goal to contribute to achieving peace between

9:18Israelis and Palestinians. That was before a number of other European countries so followed suit. So his governments would like to feel that it was taking a lead on that issue. And then that clash with Israel is really intensified. And he was actually encouraging Spanish protesters to come out onto the streets and protest against Israel last year as well. That angered Israel even more. The US has carried out a large-scale strike against Venezuela and its leader, President Nicolas Maduro, who has been, along with his wife, captured and flown out of the country. On other issues, for example, when the United States carried out the military incursion into Venezuela, he and his government spoke out against that, saying that it was breaching international law as well. The future of Venezuela has to be decided by the people of Venezuela. Of course, with the commitment of the international community.

10:19He's spoken out in favor of Greenland sovereignty or Denmark sovereignty over Greenland and against the United States's ambitions when it comes to Greenland. And also, the area where tensions between Sanchez and Trump have sort of really arisen has been defense spending as a NATO country because around the middle of last year, Sanchez refused to agree to Trump's calls for NATO members to raise their defense spending to 5% of GDP. He refused outright, said that Spain had to spend that money on hospitals and schools and so on. And that really is what seems to have riled Trump. It started when every European nation at my request paid 5%, which they should be doing. And everybody was enthusiastic about it, Germany, everybody. And Spain didn't do it. Well, they didn't have the greatest relationship before the US attacked Iran. And then you have Sanchez making even bolder statements. I mean, Guy, can you tell me about what he said about that war?

11:25It seems that Sanchez and his government were prepared for the eventuality of the United States attacking Iran because they came out very soon after the attack to say that they disagreed with it and they didn't believe that it was based on international law. Now, Sanchez also refused to allow the United States to use two military bases in the south of Spain. These are bases that the United States has traditionally used over the decades. And now Spain actually said that we can't use their bases. And that's our own little and we could use their base of what we want. We could just fly in and use it. Nobody's going to tell us not to use it. But we don't have to. But they were unfriendly. That really angered Trump. And that was where Trump spoke out and said that he was going to break off all ties with Spain was what he said at the time. Well, there wasn't clear what that meant. Rather, more specifically, he said we're going to cut off all trade with Spain. In fact, I told Scott to cut off all

12:28dealings with Spain. Spain, first of all, so that in turn drew a response from Sanchez who elaborated on why he'd taken this decision insisting that this invasion was violating international law. It had no legal basis. He talked about the 2003 invasion of Iraq, which was extremely unpopular in Spain and drew thousands of people out into the streets. And so he really took a more strident position. And that has really laid out Spain's position on this issue. Well, let's talk about that for a moment because it's quite tempting to be impressed by a world leader operating with some level of moral compass. But politically, why do you think it is that Sanchez has taken such a strident stance on all of this? I think you can't ignore the problems that Sanchez has at home. The opposition is constantly calling for him to resign and call elections. He is struggling to keep his parliamentary majority together as well. So you could see it from that point of view. Certainly, whenever he makes a sort of dramatic announcement on the international

13:31stage, the opposition is saying, this is just a smokescreen for his own problems at home. But I think Sanchez does genuinely see himself now as this sort of left-wing figure on the international stage pretty much alone left-wing figure, certainly within Europe who is speaking out against what he sees as a tide of radical right-wing politics. He's the only leader of a major European Union economy on the political left. And I think he's taking that role very seriously. Within Spain, he's constantly sort of reminding voters. If you don't have the socialist party governing, then what we will have is a radical right running the country. And he seems to have taken that argument to the international stage, saying, these kind of values that I'm espousing, these left-wing values, embracing immigration,

14:32embracing degree in economy, embracing feminism, opposing the invasion of Iran, these are sort of left-wing values. And if we ignore these, we'll be allowing this sort of radical right-wing tide to wash over Europe. And he's taken that even further now, and he's sending that message across the Atlantic as well. Given that, I wonder how he has perceived by the rest of Europe and other European leaders, given that there is this creeping rightwards march, as we're aware? Well, in Brussels, I think he's seen as someone who has more influence as a Spanish leader than many of his predecessors. And so in that sense, perhaps he's taken rather more seriously in a way, perhaps also seen as something of a problem, because he can be an outlier on some of these issues on the Iran situation, that can make the position of Ursula von der Leyen a bit uncomfortable. We will always defend and uphold the rules-based system that we help to build with our allies.

15:37But we can no longer rely on it as the only way. And in terms of his fellow leaders in Europe, I think they're sort of walking something of a tightrope, because they're trying to maintain a good relationship with Trump, but they don't want to get too involved in this conflict. I mean, the obvious example is Stammer. You're just about to pre-empt my next question. Guy, we do hear a lot about the fact that the UK is in a difficult spot with Trump, because in security terms, it's so dependent on the US. How vulnerable though is Spain to US pressure? When Trump says he's going to cut off all trade with Spain, we still don't know what that means. We don't even know if Trump is going to follow up on that, but also if he did follow up on it, it's unclear what he would do, because in theory, if he was going to carry out any economic reprisals against Spain, then he would have to do so against the whole of the European Union, or somehow find a way through that and it could get complicated. So it looks as if that's of trade punishment that he would like to meet out to Spain could be difficult to implement.

16:37In terms of other areas diplomatically, obviously, it's not great for Spain in terms of it has a bad relationship with the United States, but clearly Sanchez seems to feel that that is a risk worth taking because Trump is an unpopular US leader, certainly within Spain. I mean, a recent poll showed that three-quarters of Spaniards had a negative view of him. So in that sense, this is not bad for Sanchez, but diplomatically, of course, it could create a bumpy ride. But I think the fact of Sanchez has laid out his stall so early, in a way it makes things more straightforward for Sanchez. Melonian, Italy, or Stamara are having to walk this delicate line where they're trying to maintain a good relationship with Trump, but not wanting to get too burned by the Middle East conflict. For Sanchez, it's much more straightforward because his situation has been much clearer from the start. But I wonder when it comes to Sanchez's policy itself. I mean, has it shifted at all since the war began? I suppose you could argue it has, in the sense that

17:40Spain has deployed a military frigate to defend Cyprus. La fragata Cristóbal Colón llegará a las costas chipriotas en los próximos días para contribuir. It did so very much with the Spanish government drawing a distinction between that and supporting the Israeli and US attacks on Iran. The Spanish government there said that it was deploying that frigate because it was defending a fellow EU country. So what Sanchez has been trying to insist on is this idea that Spain is a reliable partner when it comes to NATO and the EU, but it's not willing to accept anything which might be seen as a violation of international law and it's very keen to draw that distinction. Coming up, we're standing up to Trump save Pedro Sanchez.

18:43Now you said that Trump is unpopular with about three courses of the Spanish population, but in general, how has Sanchez's approach and the way that he's taken on all these different positions? How has it gone down with the public in Spain? The opposition has accused him of using this as a smoke screen. I think there'll be many voters on the political right who whatever Sanchez does, they're not going to see him positively, but most Spaniards have a negative view of Trump, most Spaniards poll show have a negative view of the attacks on Iran as well and that economic repercussions of the Middle East conflict. So in that sense, what Sanchez is doing does cut across party lines. Some people are suggesting that Sanchez might suddenly call the snap election and try and capitalize on this support he has over this international issue. I think that's unlikely. I think an international issue alone is not enough to win him an election at the moment. His party is behind the conservatives in polls. The big question is whether in an election the left as a

19:47hole could beat the right. At the moment, it looks as if the political right would have enough support to form a new government. It would take something bigger than an international issue to swing things back towards the left in order to win an election, allow him to form a new government, I think. And so ultimately, Guy, are you saying that perhaps standing up to Trump isn't going to hold back the tide of the right in Europe and that Sanchez as one of the lone left voices on the continent might actually be due to be voted out soon? I think it would take something pretty extraordinary to win the next election for Sanchez for his socialist party to win the next election and be able to form a new government. But it's very hard to tell what will happen between now and the next election, which theory wouldn't be for at least another year. But Sanchez, he's a very astute politician. He's been written off on a number of occasions previously. As we've seen, this issue has given him a certain amount of some political capital. I wouldn't rule him out. You never know with Sanchez. He's a survivor.

20:49Well, we'll keep watching. Guy, thank you so much for your time. It's a pleasure. That was Guy Hedgeko from Madrid. My thanks to him again. This episode was presented by me Noshinik Bal. It was produced by Ned Carton Miles, Eleanor Biggs and Sunda Sampty. Sound design was by Tom Glasser, the executive producer of Sami Kent. We'll be back again with staying focused tomorrow morning and in the meantime this evening you can tune in to the latest. This is The Guardian.