Inside Reform UK

0:00This is the Guardian. Today we go inside reform UK where things are not quite going to plan. We've come to a side room of the main conference because Nigel Farage is about to give a press conference with Jordan Bardella from the National Rally Party in France who's just addressed the main room to rapturous applause. About reform UK's annual conference at the Birmingham NEC, I've just been in the main hall to witness what should have been the main story of the event. A promise between Farage and the young star of the French far-right to work together to stop the votes. But things haven't quite gone according to plan. I'm sure that the questions at least from the British press are going to be focused very much

1:03on what was going on in that undercover investigation and just sort of get a sense of what Nigel Farage's answer is going to be to it all. The room is absolutely packed. The journalists have been given translation headsets to decipher Bardella's French but they're really only interested in what Farage has to say about reforms latest funding scandal. In this documentary published last night, you met a person that you thought was an American man who wanted to donate to reform by his British resident son. You know that's illegal under UK. An undercover investigation broadcasted by Channel 4 on the eve of conference appeared to show Farage and two of his closest aides at least flirting with the idea of accepting illegal donations. But do you accept that there are real questions here about the professionalism of your party, your desire to play fast and loose with the rules? Even GB News are unimpressed. And would you apologise to your supporters out there who love your party, love you.

2:07This scandal makes your party look like you're just like all the rest. Farage's response to these questions is telling I think. He is a man who prides himself on shooting from the hip. Instead he takes a piece of paper from his jacket pocket and he reads out a statement. Make name a steak. This was an exercise in entrapment. Let me be clear, the party has done nothing wrong. Taken their illegal money. In fact, no money was taken at all. The comments were, in judicious at best, neither of these members authorized to act in that way. Accordingly, they stepped down pending an investigation. By this point in the day, those two aides were gone. But if Farage thought their departure would kill the story, he was wrong. Party conference was supposed to be a reset for Farage. After months of unhelpful headlines about dodgy donations, plunging poll numbers and consecutive bi-election losses,

3:09a part of course from the one where his mate-apoeu was a man with a bed on his head. And yet here he was, in front of thousands of his most ardent fans in the news for all the wrong reasoners. Again. Now, even people close to him are asking whether he and the party have what it takes to each number ten. And maybe they have an even bigger question too. From the Guardian I'm Helen Pitt, today in focus. Does Farage still want to lead reform? Before setting off for Birmingham, I decide to call a reform insider. Well, a former insider, I should say. Tim Montgomery is an ex-Torri advisor and the founder of Conservative Home, who defected to reform a few years ago. He was close to Farage and ran reforms Christian Fellowship Group. But he's been suspended after airing some criticisms recently about the direction of his new party. Are you currently suspended or are you expelled from reform? Suspended. This suspension came from headquarters. And when I texted Niles,

4:14I was to say, do you know I've been suspended? He didn't. And I genuinely believe he didn't know. And even this conference, I said, all I won't be going to conference. He said, you must come. He said, we must be seen publicly to be friends. And I said, but Niles, I'm suspended. And if you're suspended, you can't come to conference. So it's been sometimes the left hand and the right hand don't in reform don't quite seem to know what they're doing. And just before you were shown the door, you were creating the reform version of Conservative Home, weren't you? And I think it was going to be called 900 days that being roughly them out of time, you thought the party has to prepare for power before Andy Berner will have to call the general election. I presume that is all now on ice. But how would you characterize the mood in reform at the moment? Depends. I think it's an opposite different levels. The grass roots. I love the grassroots. They are the caricature of reform photos. There is upper working grass people who, you know, they do the right thing.

5:17They want something better for their country. And they feel like they're being taken for granted. When I go, you know, do all over the country to speak to reform gatherings, those people are anxious about the country, but they're resolved. There's that raw commitment to changing the country that I love amongst reform voter. The reform leadership, though, just seems to have got in the last six months very self-propeptial preoccupied, very sort of concerned about investigations, blood by newspapers, such a sure thing. You're on their trouble makers. And now being proudly so. And it's sort of concern that the world is out to get us. And I think anger, voters don't mind anger from politicians. If that anger is on behalf of them, a vote of half of voters, that they think voters have been treated well. But if you're angry at how you're being treated, you know, people will tolerate that for a while. But, you know, not not forever.

6:17And I think a form of look to sort of a little bit self-indulgent at times. That's what I tried to point out internally for a while and got nowhere, talked about it publicly, and I got suspended. Tim wasn't the only person banned from conference. My colleague Anna Isaac was, too. She was the reporter who revealed that Nigel Farage had accepted that £5 million gift from a crypto billionaire, which is dog Tim ever since. But reform let me go along, along with today in focus producer Eleanor. And we're just packing our bags ready to head to Birmingham when Channel 4 drops its bombshell investigation. For the past year a team from verbatim, a group of investigative journalists has been undercover in the heart of reform UK. Posing as super-rich donors with American

7:17money. And we've been given exclusive access to their footage, which we've verified. Nigel Farage is celebrating tens of thousands of pounds of elicit foreign payments. By the time we're queuing up to get our security passes at the NEC, Farage has suspended the two aides who'd been caught on camera. These were not nobody's. One of them, 30-year-old Dan Jukes, his de facto chief of staff, had been by his side since he was a teenager. The other came bridge professor James Orr, reforms policy chief, was considered the party's brain. A very good morning to you and welcome to the live stream across the reform UK socials. We are at the NEC for reform UK's 2026 conferences. So we've just battled our way through security at Birmingham NEC for the first property of reforms, annual conference, and it has not been an ideal start for the party to say

8:18the least. And I think we're really interested to hear from members. The people who are here, there's thousands and thousands off them, many of them in regulation turquoise. This is the third time reform have booked the NEC, and this time they're taking up almost as much space as cruffsters each year. We've had a lobbying stand for the government of Gibraltar, and spot former Tory MP in a Dean Doris dressed in powder pink near a double decker bus with a bar on the roof. Conference 2026 is a strange mix. There's the corporate side, allowed sponsored by Heathrow for example, and the esoteric, which is browsing a selection of crystals and tarot cards when I get a tap on the back. It's Joel Tettelow, a reform counsellor for Lancashire, who produced an LR&I met last year when we followed that council's transition from labour to reform. He'd caught himself in hot water early

9:18on, with a social media post that was a bit too ambiguous about Hitler. For the record he wasn't really praising the Nazis, and I firmly deny that my journalism amounted to a hit job. It was a balanced piece of repotage, which merely quoted his own words. But it doesn't seem to matter, he's forgiven me. He has something else to discuss. And then there's a lot who want to be patriotic, but don't want to actually put it in your face. So I've come up with this badge, so it's a bit, so it's a battleship. It's a bit the size of a lacossed badge. So you're a fashion designer now? Well it looks like I am, yes.

10:21And how are you feeling about reform at the moment? I'm just getting on with it. So there is a lot of news, there's a lot of rumblings about Nigel and what he has saying and all this tab stuff, but you know we've just ultimately, we're just trying to make our country great again. That's what I'm pushing. The problem is, is that there's a lot of heat on us. The whole world is watching us. Is it an unwell distraction though? You're in Lancashire, presumably trying to get pot holes fixed, trying to help people with their problems, and then in the news every day, there's some other question about money that Nigel Frazier is accepted. It's that difficult. I mean, ultimately that's end at Nigel. So I think for us we've just got to get on with the day today. I approached a smartly dressed young man with a lanyard saying he's from Clayton, Nigel Frazier's constituency. I think this is quite a gutting investigation, the Channel 4 documentary.

11:21Obviously Channel 4 is kind of a way to do it. He calls the journalism, which was conducted by undercover climber activists, a fishing expedition. For it, but unfortunately they've come up with something. I feel like any kind of party, the woods would have come back with the same stuff. Do you think that it's damaging? I think it would be gutted to be caught with your pants down essentially. Right, and you think that's what's happened. That is unfortunately what's happened. It's deeply embarrassing to have Nigel Frazier caught on camera in the dock that look ultimately he'll recover. He always does. On my way past the smoking area, I spot another familiar face. It's one of Frazier's most loyal lieutenants. Former UK press officer, Gwain Tauler. His dress in his usual tweed with a fag in his hand. I don't know if it's from the garden, do you remember me from back in the day? How's it going? Vogue, hard. It's not anything. I've got an ideal start to conference. Yeah, it's all right. He thinks that's happening. It's happening. I think I think we're right. You're always having a signal. I know. Do you think people here care about the Channel 4 thing?

12:25Clearly, I would think not so. But these things happen. The fact that the wind has been quarter-rised, we can move forward. There's an investigation. It will take place. We will follow that. But what has happened is right, in a sense of that should have happened. But what we have done is right. I'm happy that's happened and we move on. What's your job in reform now? Two years ago you were fired. Yeah, you were fired. I was texting your government two years ago. Not realising that you just... No, no, no, two years ago. I was fired two days after government. I was still in that job then. No, it's I'm on the board, which means when it does. And I'm sure the next meeting will be interesting. And, Fudgey, we spoke to a lot of members this morning asking them about the £5 million gift as well as the sting overnight. Nobody seems bothered. Not particularly here. What I think the summer has proven is that despite the bad stuff, and people chucking stuff all the time, our polling has gone to around between 20 and 22 and 23.

13:26And it's not trouble over that. Two years ago we were delighted when we got 14%. We now got a base of around about 2022. And that I think is shown by you talking to people here and people going, well, huh? And whilst that investigation has uncovered what it's uncovered and those resignations have taken place, it would be nice if those investigations took place elsewhere. Whenever there's another cover investigation, which part is it? Oh yes, it's reform again. Tim Montgomery's suspension came after he expressed his disappointment, shall we say, at Farage's behaviour after the clackton violation when you refuse to attend the count. But he'd also been pretty scathing about Zia Yusuf, reforms home affairs spokesman, the former party chairman, and one time Kappo has reformed short-lived doge, Cosco to unit. I think it's fascinating that Nigel Froge claims not to have known that you were going to be suspended.

14:30So who do you think is behind it? Is it Zia Yusuf? Because you've been pretty uncompimentary about him in the weeks in the run up to your suspension and subsequently. And well, I think the real reason was as you see your question focuses on my criticisms of Zia Yusuf. And I try not to be personal in politics, but there is something about how he talks and behaves towards other people in politics, the way he describes opponents in, to try some as enemies really. He treats them as, you know, talks about people not who've done badly in government or failed in government, but almost set out to sabotage the country. He talks about not wanting to spend time with opponents in green rooms. He's just very, very hard to get on with. And he's been quite disloyal in many ways. It's an idle phrase trying to sabotage, for example, the movement of conservatives over to reform. So I think it was my criticisms of him that caused the suspension that was issued. Yeah. And I mean, the day before conference started, Yusuf tweeted something negative about

15:34Labour's frontrunner in the bioletion to replace Kirsta Amber, a woman called Sagal Abdi Wally. Now she is a former child refugee from Somalia, who now leads Camden Council. And Yusuf tweeted something that basically suggested that she wasn't British, that it was wrong for her to stand. And that came after he had called Ben Wallace, a stalwart of the Tory party, former defence secretary, a traitor. You served his country in uniform. How could someone who served his country in uniform and be called a traitor? No, it's exactly that sort of language I object to. You know, my believe is, if you were given a British passport yesterday, you are as British as me or you, you are a British citizen. And we protect you, we honor you in exactly the same way as anyone else. I don't think there is a second class status for a British citizen. And I think, yes, with that tweet that he made about Labour's possible candidate to succeed Kirsta Amber. I think he didn't communicate that. And I wonder if there's a bit of hedge-grapching in Nigel Farage's office wondering, how on earth can we

16:40get Zee Yusuf off Twitter? Or X? Because he spends an awful lot of time on there. And I'm not sure a lot of what he tweets is exactly what HQ would want him to be tweeting. And I'm afraid Zee Yusuf, the way he talks about opponents, the draconian policies that he advances in some respects. And he is making people dislike us, actively dislike us. Tim worries that the party is not thinking enough about moderate voters. X Tory voters like him, who until the barrage of funding scandals were thinking about voting reform. There's more people to be gained in the middle ground from one of a better expression, who like a lot of reforms policies, but are worried about whether we had decent enough a party to be trusted to implement them. My mum, the best political adviser in the world, and the best person in the world, wasn't happy when I joined reform.

17:40But she has had sympathy for a lot of reforms policies, but she wants reassurance, I think, that even I like that she would have a very performant to violence, but she wants reassurance that policies that she might support, like the deportation of illegal immigrants, are in the hands of decent people. You know, lots of people support reforms, hard-aligned policies, but they don't want those policies in the hands of people that they would not trust to implement, what is a controversial policy. People like Zee Yusuf, is that what you mean he's the home people like Zee Yusuf, I don't know if it's going to make the sound over-person, but yes. Tim thinks Yusuf is on manoeuvres to replace for Raj. A notion that only looks more likely when Yusuf uses conference data to launch what looks suspiciously like a campaign video,

18:41a video for someone who thinks he ought to be leading reform. Could you be sensing an opportunity that Raj might not stick around for much longer? I've spent my career getting things done, doing hard things in the real world, and that's exactly what I'll bring to the office of Home Secretary. If you want another career politician doing TikToks about crisps, there's plenty to choose from. If you want someone who will do whatever it takes to deliver on our promises, vote for full. He then gives a speech in the main hall, a speech full of some politics. We will launch the largest mass deportation operation in modern history, removing every foreign national who entered this country illegally. Afterwards, he comes to meet journalists and I seize my moment. Can I ask you about the tweet that you put out yesterday about the Labour's potential candidate, Somali and refugee? Something we would see that as somebody who's contributing to society,

19:46becoming part of the civic community, and yet you've suggested there's something inherently wrong with that? Why? When did I suggest there's something inherently wrong? We used to do see what they're doing here. It was a very hostile tweet. Well, look, I think there is an important conversation that we need to have in this country. About the fact that from what I can tell, there are more foreign-born representatives from the House of Commons today than at any point in recent history. Does that necessarily have to be about? I think no. But I will say that I was concerned, for example, let's talk about people say, let's judge people on their actions, so let's do that. As a British citizen, I was concerned when I saw a group of MPs in this I'll give you the example of people off Pakistani heritage who wrote a letter lobbying the Pakistani government about an airport in my port. Not for their constituents, I mean, I don't see how an airport in my port is going to happen. He carries on at some length, but I don't really feel

20:46he's answering the question, so I have another go. But reform always wants immigrants to contribute to society, to integrate, and what better example than somebody who decides that they want to serve their local community. I just want you to explain why you had a problem with somebody doing that. Well, you know, to quote you back to serve their local community. And so again, you're looking at what has happened in British politics, and we're actually honest about this. Then somebody I think does need to speak up. I'm not making a policy prescription, but neither am I going to be, you know, tone police or bullied out of articulating these points, and these I think are serious discussed out. And I will also say, you know, it strikes me that Yusuf, a self-described Muslim patriot, is going much further than many in his party on the question of what makes someone British. In fact, it's closer to the position of Restore Britain, whose leader, Rupert Lowe, has refused to say even if King Charles can be properly considered British, as his father, Prince Philip, was born in Greece.

21:47I'm mulling this over as we head back to the main hall, an almost immediately bump into Councillor Celia Hibbert, who's the leader of Reform UK in Wolverhampton. She's a striking figure, very tall with platinum-blonde braids. She tells me she was born in Nigeria and feels lucky to live in the UK. You live in a country, you should be great for living in a safe country, you should be great for living in a country that gives you equal opportunities. There's everything to be happy about, there's everything to celebrate in England, there's everything to be proud about, there's everything to be patrotic about, it's not racism to be patrotic. Do you feel welcome as an immigrant who came to this country? I make myself welcome. It doesn't bother you that you've got zero use of potential future home secretary suggesting that if you're foreign-born, that you're somehow not fit to represent your country or your community. The ZI is an impeccable spokesperson, not just for the country, you know, ZI epitomises what we're talking about when you're from immigrant family or when you're immigrant yourself,

22:51you need to. That's what's so kind of weird in a way that he is making such a song and dance about saying that people who are not born in this country are not British and are not. Be viewed in context of how ZI has said it. I wouldn't think for a moment that ZI would misspeak because I walk away almost impressed at just how much loyalty reforms senior leaders inspire in the party faithful, but conferences are not just for those in the hall. There are a chance to show the country who you really are and I do wonder what everyone back home makes of it all. Coming up for our just big moment is severed to ush'd. Around the time that I was finishing my PhD I was feeling really awful. You message your mum saying I'm struggling. Her reply is suspiciously polished.

23:55I called my mum and I just railed on her. I was like, Mum, did you just use a chat GPT? Black box, the chat box, a new series from the Guardian Investigates about the strange things between AI and us. The whole series is out right now. Search for Black box wherever you get your podcasts. Tim, what sort of for us do you want to see on stage? I know you're not going to be there because you're pursuing an on grata, but what do you want to see from him? Well, the reason why now is a for us with such a popular politician is relatively still popular. Lots of people love him, still lots of people hate him. He's my mate. But the reason why a lot of people like him is they are pint and cigarette thing is they want to hang around him in the pub. You know, he's someone who they looks like good company. They like him. But we haven't seen that for us so much recently. We've seen the forage that's been very defensive on his interviews. He's looked like someone who is more worried about the injustices against him than the

24:57injustices against the kind of people that refer for a form. And so I want to see that happy warrior in Nigel when he gets up and makes his important speech in Birmingham. Finally, several hours late, forage arrives in the main hall for his big conference speech. Delayed not just because it reforms terrible organizational skills, but also because of the security threats. It starts like a wedding disco. He struts to the stage to the sound of Come on Eileen surrounded by what looks like a whole rugby team of bounces. I'm sitting next to a reformed council from the home count teams who watches the whole thing with cynicism. Forage is trying to show us all how we spend that 5 million quid he says laughing. With in minutes his speech is interrupted by heckling.

26:10The young woman is carried out by bounces as reform activists set about her. They're carrying somebody out. Wow, okay. The carry woman is a woman. One pulls at her, another walks away with his walking stick. Forage is prepared for this. Wow, we have that bridging. Maybe they knew this was going to happen. They've just put going going going going. Every few minutes another protester interrupts proceedings and gets carried out. Wow, that was a lot of fun. Another heckling of the security of millions of crowds. Oh, it's among this time I think. Life's dreaming himself. Listening to the speech forage sounds very much like a man on the defense. Very much not a happy warrior. And we have been the subject of a highly coordinated campaign of attacks.

27:14In a sense, it's not really surprising. Which is not what you want to be if you're trying to make the case to be the country's next prime minister. What do you do? I'm going to just say thank you. Love you all. You're a great lot. Thank you. I think back to a conversation I had with Gwain Tower earlier in the day in the smoking area. He knows forage better than almost anyone else. Do you think Nigel Fajr wants to be prime minister? He's sitting, you think he does? I don't think it's been his ambition all his life, unlike many people in Bosics. And I know for well that he wasn't keen on coming back in 24. I watched him in in Scegnese talking to this old man. He said, I'm delighted you're out. But you're letting us down. And I saw him just his eyes go, I'm going to have to do this, aren't I? Imagine he was having a much easier life. He doesn't have scrutiny of people like yourselves. And all that. He was having fun. He was traveling around the world. He was making money making speeches. He was doing his major stuff. He was doing well on GV News. He was saving that station and so on and so forth. He was having a great time without the misery of being a day-stay politician.

28:18The only worse if he's been prime minister. But having made that decision and decided, okay, I'll do it, then he's all in. And do you still think he's got a good chance of being prime minister? Have you seen the others? It's not exactly a ringing endorsement. I think back to my first reform conference two years ago, when a swaggering forage took to the stage after finally achieving his lifelong bid to become an MP, mobilising his turquoise army to go forth and lay the groundwork for a general election. I'm thinking, God, how quickly things can change. The army are here in Birmingham. They've set up branches across Britain, and they are ready to work for Farage. But cracks are starting to appear at the top. Factions are forming. And the question remains, will Farage make it to the general election, let alone downing street? I wouldn't necessarily bet on it. Just as we were putting this episode to bed on Monday night, Tim Montgomery announced that he

29:20had resigned from reform UK and urged Nigel Farage to get a grip on his party. And that is all for today. If you appreciated this episode, and of course, I hope that you did. Perhaps you'd consider leaving us a review. We always enjoy hearing what you think of the show and it helps other people to find us. This episode was produced by Eleanor Bix, Alex A. Tech and Tom Glasser, and presented by me, Helen Pied. Sound design was by Brian McNamara, and the executive producer was Sami Kent. We'll be back in your feeds this afternoon with the latest. This is the Guardian.