Dealing with Narcissists at Work

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5:14Happy Tuesday. Welcome to Feeling Things. I'm Amy. I'm Kat. And we are finally tackling the big narcissism in the workplace episode that Kat and I have been talking about doing for a while now. Kat is very pregnant. And she... Well, you can speak for yourself. I will try. But that's the thing. She gets very out of breath. And this is her wheelhouse as a therapist. I mean, not that you focus on narcissism, but this is definitely more urlain than mine. I'm here for support. And conversation. And Kat's also hot. But we also get hot in this room because of light. So it was funny before we started recording. I was like, oh, do you want my fan that I walk with? So I have this neck fan that I walk with. Especially when it's really hot out. It's so refreshing. And I was just imagining Kat sitting here doing this episode with a...

6:14That sounds so nice, honestly. And then have your little thumbs nearby. Yeah. I've recently purchased thumbs for the first time. It's getting real. Yeah. Yeah. If I had to have a feeling of the day, it would be out of breath. Well, we do not. We saw feelings of the day even though it's a narcissism episode. That's my feeling. It's out of breath. Out of breath. Oh, that's... We're going physical. That's how I'm feeling. I will be doing a lot of talking today. So for anybody listening. Especially if... Because somebody might have sent you this episode, and this might be your first episode of feeling things to listen to. I don't normally... And you're like... These people have labored breathing. About to have a baby. And we've been promising this episode for a long time. So I definitely wanted to do it before I went on maternity leave. And I wrote some notes. So hopefully that will help me talk slower, because I tend to be a fast talker, and that makes it worse. So just, you know, offer me some grace and listen with caution.

7:18Okay. All right. Well, my feeling of the day is proud. Oh. I'm proud of us for finally doing this episode. Oh, I'm proud of you. Now, it's related to this, because I think... Sometimes when things are really sensitive, sort of like the Mel Robbins deep dive. Like, we wanted to do that for a while, and it took us a minute. We finally did it last year. And after that, we thought, okay, well, that did really well. And it was interesting, and we learned things. And other people seemed to enjoy it. We've thought of all these other things we could do deep dives on. It just feels really sensitive. And, you know, a precious topic. And also, if it's a deep dive on another person, then it's... We're going to handle it with care, and make sure people receive it in a way that we're not sitting here trying to break somebody else down, just giving information that I too found helpful. And it helps, you know, shape what I'm going to pay attention to,

8:21and what I'm not. And narcissism, whether it's in the workplace or in your home, or in another type of relationship, is... It's very difficult to navigate, to live with. It can be so exhausting and debilitating for people that are in it. They're in the thick of it. And we just want to preface the episode with that, that if you're in any type of relationship, we hope that this is helpful, and we are thinking of you, even though we don't actually know you, like I want you to not feel alone, and whatever you're going through. Because it may feel that way, especially if you don't have anybody you can talk to that understands. Yeah. And I'm glad you're starting out that way, because one of the reasons I wanted to do narcissism in the workplace is because you're... We all are more likely to find and encounter somebody with narcissism at work,

9:25than we are to date them, and then we are to have them as parents. Because you're working with a lot of people. You have... Most people have two parents, and you're most likely dating less people than you're working with. So you're more likely to run into it here, and also the work stress that can put on people, studies have shown that people that... This is only trying to talk really slow, but studies have shown that people that work with... or have a boss that exhibits narcissism, have higher likelihood of having cardiovascular disease, higher likelihood of having a heart attack, higher likelihood of having a stroke, and that's just physical health. They also are more likely to have GI issues. They're more likely to use substances. And on the other hand, it also affects anxiety, depression,

10:25and all that in the mental health field. So this isn't just we want to identify narcissists and bash them. No. That's not what this is at all. I actually have a lot of empathy for people with narcissism. Narcissism? Narcissism? You're saying that word in the lot. Are you trying to think about talking so slow? Like, is this talking about narcissism? Yeah, as do I. And we've talked about that on a previous episode recently about how... It's like, oh, shoot. You know, having compassion for why someone is behaving the way that they are. However, your compassion doesn't have to be... Your compassion can come with boundaries. Right. Yeah. Narcissism comes from a wound. You're not born with it. So that's where our compassion can come. That these are human beings. And, yeah, what we want this, what will... I'll speak for myself. What I want people to glean from this is if you have been in a really...

11:26What you would describe as chaotic or toxic work environment, this might help put some pieces together. And then we're going to give you a little information on, okay, well, if this is where... If this is what I'm dealing with, this is what I can do to make things better for myself. And another reason why I wanted to set up probably the... Why were a little shy to jump on this out of the gate? Is similar to a lot of things you see on social media, there are... People... A lot of people can get called a narcissist when... It doesn't mean that they are. Just because someone checks even a few of the boxes, it doesn't mean they have impede. Which is... Isn't that the way we say it with DSM5? And I mean, yes. So there are... I think there's like nine or ten traits of Narcissism in the DSM. And I think you have to have five of them. I don't quote me on that, but it's something like that. We all, every single human being, is going to have a trait or two of Narcissism.

12:27We actually need a healthy amount of Narcissism to survive. It allows us to go after things. It allows us to have self-confidence. It allows us to like ourselves. In a nutshell, Narcissism means like self-worship. So we need to have a little bit of an ego to be successful in this world. So we're all going to have a little bit of that. And when you say we all, like literally... Everybody. Me. Cat. Cryocat. Everybody. Everybody listening. Yeah, all of you. All of you. There is absolutely an example, a day, a time, where you had some sort of narcissistic behavior more than likely. What you're making a blatant statement there, but there are times where it's like, oh, but that doesn't equal Narcissism. Narcissism. Yeah. Narcissism is pervasive. So that means that it is always all the time forever. It doesn't go away. It doesn't just show up in your friendships or at work. It shows up at work and in your friendships and in your relationships and on your own.

13:30It shows up when you order food at a restaurant and when you're pumping gas at the gas station. Like it's always with you. So that's a big part that differentiates between like when some of our... Some of us like a trait might show up in a certain area versus this is pervasive. It is all the time. Don't just see like, oh, they are such a perfect wife and mom. And then they're just terrible at work. Well, it would blend over. Or bleed over. When it's happening in the workplace, it's likely showing up at home somehow too. So there's no... They can't turn it on at work and turn it off around others. It's who they are. So personality disorder is who somebody is. And yeah, there's a lot of manipulation involved in narcissism. So you can hide it at times and you can turn things up and turn things down a little bit. But it's going to bleed at some point.

14:32It's not only going to be in this one area and you're not going to be like, this person is perfect over here, but not over here. If you have a boss, that is this way. They're probably showing up in certain ways with their family and friends too. They might not have all clued into it yet. Like not everybody might know what's going on because not everybody always knows that they're dealing with the narcissist when they're dealing with one. Most of us have probably had experiences with people with narcissism and we just don't realize that. Who said he can't have things your way? On DraftKings Casino, spin your way with Flex Spins. Exclusive spins that let you pick the slots. New Casino players play $5 and get 1,000 total Flex Spins, including 100 Lightning Leap Spins. Unlock 50 spins a day at varying values for your first 20 days. Then use your spins your way.

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16:34Anyway, the point of this is not this episode is not to diagnose. And that's why I'm not even going through the criteria that's in the DSM because that's not the most important thing. I don't want it's all to go out with like a sheet of paper being like, do they check these boxes? Yeah. That's because they to be diagnosed you really need to go to a mental health professional. And most people with MPD are not going to a mental health professional to be diagnosed for this. I will say that most narcissists are men. So sometimes it feels like that when we're talking about them. It's because it's actually true. I don't have the why the scientific reason on that. But according to the DSM, most people that are diagnosed are men. So just a little tidbit. Women also can have this though. Yes. But most being men. Okay, so we kind of covered what narcissism and a nutshell is right there.

17:37And without listing the actual. Where are they symptoms? Yeah. For the behaviors of the traits. The traits. Yeah, traits. So two major things that I would look at. This is not. We're not going to the DSM right now, but like two major things that all narcissists are going to. I want to say encounter going to have. Are a grandiose sense of self, which is. You know, they think very highly of themselves and a lack of empathy. Now, it's hard about that. Some narcissists. At times can turn on that empathy, but it's not true empathy. So they also can be very cold. And there's four types of narcissism. We're not going to get super, super deep into the four types. There's like the overt narcissists, which is the one that we think most of us think about. That is a very big, loud character.

18:39You can tell that they like themselves. They kind of seem obsessed with themselves. And there's a covert narcissist, which is plays more of a victim role. Where the over is like, I'm the best of the best. The covert is I'm the worst of the worst. That one's really tricky. And then there's malignant, which that one. Is the one that's going to like not stab you in the back. Like stab you in the front. Like they are so cold and so mean. And they get joy in paint. Joy in other people's pain. So they get sometimes have you have your experience like somebody making a joke about somebody to their face and just getting so much joy out of making somebody else feel so uncomfortable and bad about themselves. Thankfully, I don't have. Like I have. But there are certain types of people who in the workplace. Did you or was this a personal? This is more personal. Yeah. There's certain people that you can sit in a room with. And I'm like covering my face.

19:39I'm so embarrassed or so uncomfortable for the people around me. And the thought I have when that stuff happens is how does this person not feel uncomfortable? Because they have no empathy. So they can say things that are like so out of touch that I might be like, how could you say that to that person's face? Oh, well, I've seen that on TV. Yeah, I'm sure you've seen on TV. You see that on the news? Because they, I just haven't been or to my memory at this moment. I can't recall somebody behaving that way in a room. The malignant is not going to be as you're not going to encounter it as much. But when you encounter it, like it's possible. Like there's no. And then there's a communal narcissist, which that's the type of person who is like the do gritter. Like they're the one that's, you know, heading the charity. So you're like, how could they be a narcissist? Or they get a lot of power and ego from helping other people.

20:42So they're not helping you to help. They're helping to get the recognition of helping. And so you think I'm such a good person. All of these people, again, I'm saying this with care and kindness. Because all this comes from a wind. All of these people are manipulative. And so a lot of their behavior is not like you can't just look at his face value. And that's where I think it gets a little tricky for a lot of people when they see like the communal type of narcissist doing something. Well, they can't be a narcissist. Look what they did for me. But they might have done that for you to have your admiration. And that helps them get to where they need to be. But as soon as you are no longer giving them what something that they need. That's going to help them. They might drop you. We'll get more into that. So in the workplace. A narcissist is going to have the traits of a highly successful person.

21:46Just the nature of who they are because of how they have chosen. Besides the covert narcissist, right? That one's probably going to not be in an interview striving for greatness. They're not going to be talking very highly about themselves. But all the other types of narcissists look very confident. And they aren't afraid to go after things. Again, they think very highly of themselves. They're good at selling themselves. And so you're going to find a lot of CEOs. A lot of just bosses in general. I mean, not every company or every workplace has your encounter in a CEO. But high level positions. See sweet. See sweet. Which Amy and I recently learned. Recently, over a year. Okay. I think mine was like five years ago. Okay. I will admit mine was. Come, we're coming up actually on two years. See sweet because I won't forget.

22:47It was November October. November two years ago that I learned. Okay. So I was trying to get my date. In case anybody listening isn't familiar with see sweet. It's the executives that are CEO. CFO, CMO. And they likely have a office with a window. They have a suite. So they're the see sweet executives. Yeah. And if you did not know that. No shame. Yeah. Because not everybody is not a report that corporate life. But a lot of see sweet members. This is not all of them. Okay. Is this because they in order to get to the top where they got there. They kind of had to do whatever it took to get there. I mean, some people that would. Yeah. Some people they're ruthless. And so yeah, you're going to do that. Sometimes it's just they don't have to be ruthless. But they are just so.

23:47I think that the ego helps somebody in an interview process helps people with relationships. They're going to be climbing the ladder in a different way that you and I might climb the ladder. Well, and having that. You go or that confidence in yourself. To helps you get further along because you believe you can do it. It's almost this. Some of us have to act as if. Yeah. In order to get it and we're like in our brains, we're like, you got this. You are amazing. Awesome. Acting as if you are the leader. You are. You are. But like they. They don't have to act as if because unless they're the. Coverer. Then they believe they really are the best. And there is a. Yes, they do believe that in certain circumstances and also it is a. Survival strategy. They have taught themselves. Okay, because this is where I also get a little off because you hear that so many narcissists truly are so insecure.

24:47So then it gets tricky because you're like, well, they. They're able to believe they are the best. And then also that's rooted in insecurity. Right. Okay. So their actual sense of self is very fragile. Okay. Which is why sometimes if you go against a narcissist, if you stop shining whatever light or you try to expose them, they. Can turn on you in an instant. There's not a lot of healthy dialogue. There's not open. A lot of open for feedback. They can't hear that because they their wound has already attacked their sense of self and who they are. So deeply that they've kind of created a lot of. Safeguard around that. So yes, they might not always even know that either either, but I just think it is helpful. I'm glad you said that for us to know because it can be so frustrating that like these people look like they think that they're best of the best and all this stuff.

25:50What it really comes down to is deep deep deep deep deep in security. There's no point in bringing that up to them on your on your part. So it's like that won't be helpful especially in the workplace. Yes, not yes, yes. And that's something that I wanted to touch on is if you notice this or you feel this or you see this once you spot it, it can be so frustrating. Once you see the things and the patterns and all that can be so frustrating because you just want to be like, this is not right. This is not fair. I see what you're doing calling it out is not going to help you because these the systems in the workplace are set up. We'll get into this a little later much like a family system. And the system is working on this dysfunction. You calling that out is most likely going to make you look like the chaotic one. So let me ask you is that because the narcissist is so like who's thinking your chaotics other people on the team everybody because they stay calm.

26:59Yeah, so well, yes. The narcissist is going to manipulate you to make you feel crazy, crazy. But also the system is set up to again, like think dysfunctional family. We recently talked about the dysfunctional roles in families, the placator, the hero, the mascot, the scapegoat, all of that. So much like a dysfunctional family, your workplaces going to operate like that. There is a level of homeostasis, which is balance means balance. Even though the balance is unhealthy and toxic, it's still a balance of toxic and it works and everybody's playing their role. So when you start to notice this behavior when I feel like I'm getting like backwards, I haven't talked about certain things. But when you stop being fed the like narcissists nutrients that are like helping you survive in this place, when you get discarded, when you start to see the light.

28:08And you want to think it's very frustrating. You want to say something, but not that doesn't mean that everybody else has seen that. And so they're still getting what they need out of this situation. They don't want you to ruin this. They don't want you to mess with the system much like in a family, if a family member is no longer willing to play by the rules of this family that are dysfunctional and toxic. Maybe they're no longer willing to just sweep things under the rug and they want to talk about things. And they want to have confrontations and they all want to do that. And they want to look like the scapegoat because nobody else wants to do that. Like we're fine. We're we're thriving over here doing it this way. Please don't mess with this. And so that's what's most likely going to happen to you. And it's not going to you're probably going to feel. There's going to probably be a punishment for you versus oh, I saved the healthy, the work environment now it's healthy again.

29:12These work like that. And so we'll talk about what to do. But what's really frustrating for me is there's not real there's not a way for you to like sit down with this person and have a healthy confrontation because they're not in the business of doing that. Their behavior is kind of maddening. It's hard to explain sometimes. It can make you feel crazy and it doesn't make sense and it doesn't make sense because that's what it's built off of. That makes sense. It doesn't make sense because it doesn't. And I think that is a sentence I hear myself saying a lot when I hear people, especially my office talking about these situations where like I can't make sense of it. I'm like, well, good. That means that you're not in their type of brain that you have this healthy brain. This doesn't compute into that. They play like totally different rules. So let's talk about what it specifically looks like at work.

30:16Getting the family together? Easy. Getting the family together and off their phones. Okay, now we need a plan. Enter Hasbro Game Night. There is a monopoly where your 10-year-old can become a real estate mogul before bedtime. There's also Clue where accusing grandma of suspicious activity is not only allowed. It's encouraged. Then there's Connect 4, the sweet little game that somehow ends with Dad whispering best 2 out of 3. And then there's Guess Who, where does your person have a mustache? Is still a perfectly reasonable question. Pick a game, grab your people, phones down, game on. Find your favorite Hasbro games at your local Walmart Walmart.com or through the link in the show notes. Support for this podcast is brought to you by Walden University. Going back to school can feel tough when you're already bouncing work and family and all the things. Walden University is built for working professionals who want to grow their skills, move forward in their careers, and make a bigger impact in their communities.

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36:49So let's talk about what it looks like at work. I gave you the four different types. So there's the one type that's like the classic, the over, narcissists. That's going to be very loud in your face. The person that is yelling, they're the person that is giving you crazy assignments, asking you to go above and beyond and not blinking. You know, I've never had this type of boss, but like the type of boss. Oh my gosh, I'm rewatching New Girl. And there is an episode where Jess, have you seen New Girl? Okay. Jess gets a new boss and it's, what's her face from? Say by the bell, the girl that takes the caffeine pills. Oh, Jesse Spana. Yes. It's her. And she's this new principal that doesn't want to do any of her work and just gives it to Jess.

37:49And she gave her this like budget binder. And it was like maybe two weeks worth of work. And she was like, I need to do this tonight. Like those are the kinds of assignments that this type of boss is going to give you and like not think about it and be like, do it or you're fired kind of thing. So that's your like classic type of narcissistic boss or I mean coworker. Now, then there's another kind that I think is more common and at the same time might not feel as common because it's harder to spot. And this is I think if people are listening and like lights are going to start coming on, it's going to be more about this person. And it's because they play such a more careful game. They they are people that look like they are, they want the best for you. And that they want you to succeed and that they care about you, but they really don't.

38:50And this is these type of people will hook you. I've experienced more of these people than the other. Now both of them have all a lot of the same like, well, is this one again? Did you say the name? It's the communal narcissist. The communal. So you know, yes. So this is the type of narcissist that's more like the do gutter. This is the type of and I'm not saying I'm not calling anybody out when I say this. This is the type of person who like could work for a nonprofit. And when you think of people working for companies like that, you're like, well, they have to be such a good person. But that's part of the thing they get from that is like, you think I'm such a person. Okay, these people are very nice. They want everybody to see them as like a hero or a saint. They help others get praise and attention. So I'm going to help you get some attention to. But again, it's not because I want to help you. It's because I want you to be like, Catherine, help. Do you remember when Catherine did that thing?

39:50She's such a good mentor. So you're pointing at yourself like you would be the like if I help you get praise and attention. And you would go and tell your friends, boss is the best. Like they helped me get on this committee. But you're only doing it. So you would say that. So then you start thinking, I am such a good person. And I've hooked you. So I've kind of got you in. Right. It's a way that we manipulate. So this is I would, I don't want people out there to be like, you know, looking into everybody's behavior. I mean, like I can't trust anybody. Oh, because there are fabulous, amazing, big-hearted people in C-suite positions in nonprofit positions that are not narcissists. Not narcissists at all whatsoever. This episode is about narcissism in the workplace. So that's we're talking about these work positions. But that doesn't mean everybody in these spots. Obviously that is clear.

40:50I even think that would be known, but I just wanted to say it. Yeah, it's important to say, I think it's important to say it because sometimes when I'm talking about this, it's kind of what you said in the beginning of the episode. I feel like I'm like bashing people and also scaring people. There's plenty of good in the world too. There just is some not so good and I want people to be aware of it. So these type of people are going to use love bombing. I think a lot of us know what that is. But in case you don't know what love bombing is, you usually hear in the context of relationships. Like in the beginning of a relationship where a guy or a girl is just being amazing, you're there buying you expensive gifts or they're being so incredibly kind. Or they're taking you on a crazy trip early in a relationship. A crazy trip. Have you been on crazy trip early in a relationship? No. I felt like you related to that. No, I saw a documentary. Crazy trips early on are such a red flag.

41:52Which again, it doesn't always equal narcissists. But somebody could be to watch out for. I was loved bombed with a trip early in a relationship. Yeah, you were. And are you going to say this? What? Well, he ended up being a narcissist. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. Well, I mean, it's like diagnosed by you and me. Yeah, yeah. He had a lot of traits that made us question. Right, right, right. You know what's interesting? I had two people early in a relationship try to take me to the same place. What is it? See, I have to start asking, what is it about me that doesn't see this stuff so early? Love bombing feels really good, guys. Oh, okay. So let's just put that out there. I don't want anybody to feel bad about themselves for succumbing to the love bomb. Because especially if you don't know what it is. Yeah. And if affirmation is your love language and there someone is doing something,

42:56even your love language at work, like we're kind of bouncing back and forth between a romantic relationship and work now with the love bombing. But even at work being affirmed, if that's your love language, feels so good to be told that you did a good job. If you're in front of people. You're, you know, yes, it can feel lovely. Yeah. And in the workplace, the love bombing can be, it's not always going to be a trip or gifts because sometimes that's inappropriate and they can't do that. But it can be a lot of the affirmation that you're talking about. It can be awards. It can be just being invited into certain rooms that not everybody gets invited into. It can be just them saying like things like, you know, I can trust you more than anybody else here. Or I want your opinion because I value your opinion more than anybody else here. That makes you feel like, oh my gosh, like I'm, I'm special.

43:56That's what the feeling is. It's like you start to feel, I'm so special. Finally, somebody sees how fabulous I am. Well, what's tricky is there are some amazing people in the workplace or bosses or co-workers that want to acknowledge someone's behavior. And again, just because someone has said that to you, it doesn't mean they're love bombing you. Someone that is not a narcissist can hand out a genuine compliment to you in that way. So to me trying to assess, and again, we're not trying to do that for people, but I picture someone listening thinking, oh, I clicked on this episode because I feel like I might be experiencing something like this in the workplace. They might be trying to think through anything we say and what person has done. And I think it's more of you build your own data. And it's going to take time and collecting and keeping notes if you need to for yourself.

44:58Because especially if you're in a place where you're starting to feel a little bit crazy, or you might be manipulated, notes can be your best friend. Notes that are handwritten at your home. Don't email yourself notes from your work computer. Right? Like don't do that. But it's good to make note. I think that work. It's good to make note with dates and times. Because as you build data and information for yourself, it might be data and information that comes in handy down the line. Yeah. And in the love bombing phase, you're probably not going to be inclined to write a note. But what is interesting in what what I think helps like click on the like lights for people is this love bombing doesn't last forever. It can be turned on and turned off. And a lot of times you'll feel so good and all the sudden you'll feel like you're discarded and thrown to the side.

45:59Because that person has extracted what they need from you. And if you no longer are giving them anything, then they no longer need you. You're discarded. You'll look up and there's somebody else who's getting invited into those rooms now. There's somebody else all of the sudden that's in that space. And that's a lot of times where when I say, okay, now start writing those notes and think about the things that have happened. You might have to retroactively do that. And we'll talk more about that as we get into like what do we do for in this situation. But that is so important to have some documentation. That's a good point. Like the light bulb has to go off to have the documentation. And thinking of someone's sought out this episode because that means that you already have some sort of indication. So at every little thing we say or that cats bringing attention to just because you've experienced doesn't mean again that someone is for sure a narcissist. Because there might be people at your work that genuinely think you're amazing.

47:01Yeah. You like anytime somebody gives me a compliment, I document that at my home computer. You don't do that. Okay, so also a lot of times, and I'm going to say this now, when you're talking about people who are toxic or abusive or environments that aren't healthy, you'll hear somebody at some point say, well, if it's that bad, just leave. Or if that person's treating you this way, leave. This situation, I mean, with most situations like that, it's not that easy because people have been our victim that are manipulated and there's more to it. It's one of my least favorite things to hear people say, but in this situation, part of the love bombing can be the narcissist giving you something that you can't get anywhere else. And it could be in the form of maybe they're paying you more than let's say you were a project manager for a marketing firm. I don't know how much they make or I don't know if that's like an actual job, but like let's say that's what your job is.

48:03Let's say they are paying you like $250,000, but you're at entry level or mid level or something and you know you can't go anywhere else and make that. If you left, you'd be taking a huge pay cut. That's a way that the narcissist can kind of manipulate manipulate you and kind of like dig into your like by your loyalty where yeah, if I was, if my typical median salary for my job will go therapist. If the median salary was like $70,000, but I got hired and was making $200,000 as a therapist who's just working 40 hours a week. It'd be hard for me to give that up and go work at a job for $70,000 or they could, it doesn't have to be in the form of just your salary. It can be any kind of work perks. It can be in the form of, you know, any kind of insurance benefits or travel or something like that, what that they know that you need that you can't get anywhere else. Or it can maybe be they are high up in your industry and they have a lot of power in your industry and that if you quit that job, you're afraid if anybody else would hire you and that over you could get the same type of job.

49:16And so I want to have a lot of empathy for the person who's experiencing this that it's not as easy as just leave the situation. And if you're experiencing this, I don't want you to think like, oh, I'm weak or whatever because people have families and people have bills to pay and this is what the work, why the workplace makes it so hard, it's your livelihood. It's not just, I don't want to say like just a relationship, but it's not a relationship that you could cut off easily and just walk away from in some situations. I mean, if you think about those types of relationships, it's hard to cut off because let's just say, for example, especially since more men end up being narcissists, like if you're in a man and a woman are in a relationship and he has created that power and balance. And now she's dependent upon him. It's very difficult for her to just walk away because through that relationship, lifelines have been severed and purposefully.

50:21So then just walking away isn't as simple as getting out of there because you may not financially have or network of people, your people that are close to you, you don't have anywhere to turn. Yeah. And oh, that's a good point because also in the workplace, because I was talking about it being a family system, like you don't want all of your, the people that you love and that you've known and you've worked for to turn on you either. Like it's a big risk because you might lose people that if I call out this behavior or I expose something, I'm also risking losing all of these people because I don't know if they're going to believe me or see my side or have the strength. Have the strength to acknowledge something or if they have had the flip the switch come on yet. So you would be risking, yeah, a lot of lifelines there as well. Another thing to know about what it looks like in the workplace and this is again, this kind of is everywhere, but chaos.

51:24Where there is a narcissist, there is chaos now, not everybody might know where the source is coming from, but if there is always chaos in your work environment, there might be a narcissist of what. So when you're sitting around, you seem the glass onion. Yes, which one, the first one, our good, the first one's the best, but that guy that's one of our like the quotes that we say the most in our house and Ben Womblaw or whatever his name is. I don't know, he has that cool accent. He's like, I've heard there's some truttery of foot. That just made me think of that. And I said, no, this is the foot. Yeah, there's a narcissist to put. Now, it might not everybody might realize that like all of these little spouts of chaos lead back to the same person because this is a key part.

52:26I don't, I need to find a different way to phrase this, but this is just what I'm going with. We can workshop it. Yeah, there it fits though. A narcissist is going to have minions. Oh, minions works. Yeah, it just feels like, you know, it key calling somebody a minion. I've heard it referred to as minions. Okay. Yes, I. Yeah, I think that it's okay. It is what it is. It is what it is. I feel like that's a good way to put it in even people that have been minions. I think are okay with realizing I was a minion. Yeah. Yeah. And so, okay, so there's that's also part of the like risk and calling out the behavior is there's usually a group of people that are protecting the narcissist. And these are the minions. They are still getting a lot from this narcissist because the narcissist usually holds some kind of key to what they want, whether that's admiration, whether that's a job.

53:27I think this happens a lot in situations where your job isn't like a dime a dozen. Like, let's say you worked for trying to think of a example of something like in our city where there's not that many of. Let's say there's one ice cream shop in the city, right? And you lived in breathe ice cream. So if you didn't work for this person, you couldn't work an ice cream unless you moved and left your family. So they hold this key. So you're going to be very bought into the idea of making sure that this person is still good in your in your mind. That makes sense. So the minions will do a lot of the work of the narcissist because the narcissist have kind of like trained them. So that's why a lot of people like don't see the all roads kind of lead back to Rome because they're protecting the gates. That makes sense. So that's actually a good point that you've even said that too that people listen to this might have been a minion.

54:33What would you want to say to somebody who has felt that way? Like I've been talking a lot. I think that based on everything you've even set up till to now, the the keyword would be manipulation. And that stands out to me is when someone's been manipulated, you need to have so much grace for yourself. It's not like you intentionally went out and behaved a certain way. You've been tricked. And I mean, is brainwashed a stretch? Like I, I would put it in that bunch because like when you're being manipulated, who knows what that person's being told to believe one thing? And then they think they're doing this service kind of keeping everything going because that aha moment hasn't happened yet. And until that light bulb goes off, you don't, you're trucking along, like trying to do your best to your job, keeping everything. It can be a well oiled machine, right? I mean, from what I'm taking away of what you said, it's if you were a minion or you're realizing you might be a minion,

55:39it's the important word is to have grace for yourself because yeah, the trickery, the trickery, the trickery of foot, yes. The trickery of foot. And I would also say if you're on the outside and you were no longer feeling that and you're getting frustrated with the people that are still minions, have grace for them too. Because I think it takes a lot to allow yourself to have the aha moment because if this person is holding the key and you know if I start to believe the reality. Because a lot of this is like you, we still want to think good of this person. We want to think that they want the best for us. We don't want to think that they're the ones that's puppeteering all this chaos around me. It's not suziq that's making my life miserable. It's actually this person who is manipulated to the Q. It takes a lot to say, oh, this isn't going to give me what I want or oh, like I might have to give up this part of my dream or this part of whatever to feel better or to be morbid in reality.

56:51I think it's really hard to allow yourself to do that. I have that experience in relationships. When you want so bad, I mean, I have had to work really hard on you don't always have to believe the best in everybody Catherine. Because I want to give people a million chances. They can't, they couldn't have meant that or they're having a bad day or they're having a bad week or they have a good, they have to have a good heart. I believe everybody has a good heart. That's not true. And that was a hard lesson for me to learn. Not everybody has a good heart. And to let go of that, you are letting go of a lot. So, grace, grace, grace, grace, grace for everybody involved. You're also allowed to be really frustrated and annoyed. To can be true at the same time. And I think actually once you get out of it and once you're completely like, okay, I've seen the light. You just look at everything a little bit differently. It's the frustration isn't as heavy because you're like, oh, it sucks.

57:53They're still in it. And I wish I could pull them out, but I can't. Okay, so that's kind of what it looks like. It's going to be all encompassing. It's going to be chaotic. You'll find yourself probably when you're in the thick of this, talking about this chaos all of the time. It will take over your life. If you can't stop talking about the chaos at work, there might be something going on. Right. Since we were just talking about minions before we move on, would you would, would you recommend minions if they have the aha moment? And they realize their role. Can minions make amends with people? You mean after they. Not the narcissist. Okay. Make amends to other people in that. Yeah. What is what you recommend? I'm saying like how would someone like if someone has an aha moment and they realize the role they played. Is it disruptive to the ecosystem or how would a minion.

58:56Could they go and just say because. Again, protecting that ecosystem is important, but is there a way where without even mentioning. And then the narcissist. Like not even making it about them at all, but going to if there's keep people where they realize like, oh, could they go to those people and say. Hey, I just have realized some things and my role in it and my behavior, but really keeping it. This is sort of Alonan talk, but keeping it your side of the street because I think where it can get messy is when you try to bring in other things. And you don't want to be disruptive or part of the problem. You just own your role and try to make amends or at least apologize and then they can do with it what they want. But would you would that be an okay thing to do because I'm just thinking once you realize if you're the minion, you're like, oh, dang. Part of that process of feeling better might be able to have some conversations with people.

1:00:02And then they're like, yeah, I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it because it's just like, you know, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do it. I'm not sure if people try to bring in all the other stuff be like, ah, I'm not this isn't about that. Because again, you don't want to pop that whole can of heart to do. Not because you're a malicious person, but because you've been fed things that maybe weren't true. It's like second hand smoke. Yeah. So if you've got, I'm thinking like if the narcissist is the smoker, you're close to it. You're naturally going to breathe it in and there's going to be some damage. Yeah. So, but you weren't the one actually holding the cigarette, but you might need to do some smoke damage control. But without bringing up the smoker, you were having to bring in all these different analogies. Make it make sense. You would have, I think that is a wonderful thing to do when you were outside of it and to be like, oh my gosh, I was acting outside of my character.

1:01:08And I want to clean up my side of the street. Yes. Only do that if you know you can hold the boundary with yourself because, oh my gosh, it feels so good to talk about this stuff with somebody. And if you like, like crack the can, like it's all going to come out because you guys are both sharing this experience and you might start like commiserating a little bit, which is understandable. But also you have to be very careful, especially if you're still working there. So it's one thing of you totally have cut off certain situations. Or you're at home venting about it to your sister. Yeah, that's separate. I'm talking about in the ecosystem. I would only do that if you know you can hold that boundary. And yeah, like you said, if that person starts kind of like baiting you, you have to go in there with a sentence stem of some sorts that lets you just kind of create a boundary. Caution, caution, caution, because that would be very hard.

1:02:11So let's talk about what to do to get out of this chaos. We've already covered the like you're most likely going to be the scapegoat if you're the one that is noticed this and not other people aren't bringing this to you. So what I would say with that is again, calling out this behavior is not going to be what you what it's going to get you what you want. If you cannot leave, if you can't get a new job, if you can't quit, that's not an option, which is understandable. You're going to have to then learn how to just like play the game. How to stay in this and create boundaries, get your needs met knowing that this person is still going to be doing this. Which is so hard. It's maddening. So you might need a therapist. You might need a person outside of work to talk about this with, but also you need to make sure that they have boundaries to win and if it gets too much for them.

1:03:19But you're going to need some kind of outlet because if this is pervasive and I mean you spend so much time at work and a lot of these people are probably working more than 40 hours a week. You're going to need a support system of some kind. I would not recommend somebody just being like, okay, I'm going to put myself up by my bootstrap, suck it up and move forward. You're going to need people who understand your situation. Again, this is going to be one of probably the most difficult, it should be. This should be one of the most difficult experiences that you have because this is not normal life. So if you do feel like this is very hard, I just want also people to hear that like it is by nature very, very hard. So know if that's the route I'm choosing. If that's the route I have to choose you to, like if you can't leave your job, like also is there a way for you to have like an.

1:04:24This is my plan for now kind of thing. I have to stay in this for now, but I know this won't be my forever. Sometimes having some kind of out in the future and it not being infinite allows people to like stay a little bit easier and let's people. Not that it's going to totally roll off your back, but let's kind of that stuff roll off your back a little easier because you're like, I'm not going to be in this forever. I have to survive until this point, then I can get out. So maybe having an exit plan. Now while you don't have an exit plan, what were you saying earlier about documentation? Well, I was saying it could come in handy. Well, my initial point bringing it up was for your own data just so that you can have a better understanding because we. With anything in life, I forget things all the time. So I was just picturing someone listening and trying to put pieces together. And so I thought it might be helpful. If they start to document, then they have something to go back and they have a date and a time, which that documentation will be helpful for your own data.

1:05:27But also if something were to happen at work with this narcissist, you now have a plethora of data at your fingertips, which would be hard to come up with. Otherwise, if you weren't documenting, you know what's really frustrating is there was this I don't have it, but I do know this was a real thing. There was a New York Times article that was talking about people who were going to HR with complaints about narcissism in the workplace and HR. Yeah, I thought you said a jar. And I was like, what's a job they were going to human resources. They're going to HR HR. Yes. Yes, that I know with you know what HR is. And they were going with complaints of narcissism in the workplace and guess what their remedy was. What? What would you think that if that was what is the normal thought in your head that like if somebody goes with complaints of narcissism in the workplace and toxic environment, what do you think that they an HR would recommend? What's the normal thing to recommend?

1:06:36What being an HR's in they're going to launch an investigation and then they're going to tell you to have some boundaries. I don't know what HR would tell you they're going to tell you to document you would think that they would lease yes. Oh, is that where we're going? They're going to tell you to document like my HR. So I'm a HR. I'm HR. No, what would they say? I don't know. I've never gone to HR about anything. I think all the things you said would be kind of a more normal response of like we're going to investigate please document and bring that to us. Okay. Now what they did is they provided counseling services to the people that complaint. So well, so they knew what they were dealing with. So instead of tackling the problem, this is what I mean about the ecosystem. Instead of actually addressing the problem, they made you the problem and you need to fix yourself. You need to go get counseling. But that's clearly provided it. I'm not going to lie. Yeah, it's also super invalid. No, I get that part too.

1:07:38But also in the meantime, yes, it is good to talk to somebody. It would be great if the response was we're going to launch an investigation, start documenting things. In the meantime, if you want someone to talk to, here's a counselor. That would be beautiful. But I don't think that's what they did. Getting the family together? Easy. Getting the family together and off their phones. Okay. Now we need a plan. Enter Hasbro Game Night. There is a monopoly where your 10-year-old can become a real estate mogul before bedtime. There's also Clue where accusing grandma of suspicious activity is not only allowed, it's encouraged. Then there's Connect 4, the sweet little game that somehow ends with Dad whispering best 2 out of 3. And then there's Guess Who. Where does your person have a mustache? Is still a perfectly reasonable question. Pick a game, grab your people, phones down, game on. Find your favorite Hasbro games at your local Walmart, Walmart.com or through the link in the show notes.

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1:13:55If you want someone to talk to, here's a counselor. That would be beautiful. But I don't think that's what they did. And that's the like, in some scenarios. And this has happened so often. There isn't a solution. I think about people that make companies a lot of money in any industry. HR isn't going to be like, we will fire the person that brings the most money in. We're going to fire the person that helps us actually pay everybody salaries. Whether it's sales or whatever it is. That's not going to be the first thing they do. And not because they're bad people. I'm sure it's all a culmination of pressure. And so that's part of protecting the ecosystem. That, okay, well, we can't really address this. But we have to like see why I mean, I know we're talking narcissism here. But in plenty of like you're saying, in positions of power or people that make a lot of money or afford facing in the company,

1:14:58or they're a really good coach or athlete, you make, you move the goalposts for certain people. Because it's like, oh, as a company, we have these standards. And this is where we stand. But if it's that person, we're going to move this until something blows up and gets so massive. And then they get called out and they're forced to fire someone or let them go for their, you know, inappropriate behavior. Think about, as you said that, like the stuff that male athletes are able to get away with. Like every day I open up my phone and there's like another like charge of something. I'm like, if this was just like, you know, again, a accountant at this random firm, they'd be fired. Right. Unless they were again, the forward facing whatever. So that's something just to keep in mind because we started this talking about like a lot of these people are going to be your CEOs. They're going to be the top. So they're going to have a lot of protection because they it's the trickle down effect.

1:16:00So that's why I say calling it out isn't being the whistleblower. How often is the whistleblower like the one that gets kind of like stomped in the mud versus the actual person. So have grace with yourself. Be honest with yourself. I think this is the biggest thing when it comes to, okay, what do I do? Like you said, should I apologize or make amends? Be honest with yourself. Like how much can you handle? Can you really set these boundaries up? Don't test yourself. Make things as easy as possible. If you don't have to go to certain events, don't go to them. But know that because you have the awareness and because you no longer are probably going to be shining as much light on this person, you are going to feel the trickle down effects of that. Bridget boundaries are your best friend. And also, I guess I'll say in that too, they might be rigid, but they also, these are very invisible.

1:17:04And maybe nobody has to know about that. Yeah, yeah. I'm just probably known. I don't know why I felt the need to say it, but it's just, yeah, they don't want to be talked about with like anybody. They can be your own personal little invisible boundaries. They probably won't be talked about with anybody at work. That's why it's important to have those other people. And I feel like you go into work one day. Hello. I am coming in with new boundaries today. You're like dragging in your physical boundaries. This part of the conversation, I always feel. Some guilt or at a loss because I don't have a pretty way to tie it up. So you have the awareness that this is happening, the things that you can do are leave. It's on an option for anybody. Or learn how to play the game and create boundaries. It's still going to be terrible.

1:18:06But it might feel a little lighter if you no longer are feeling that like ping pong ball effect. And I also want to let people know that most of the time, these people end up getting what is coming for them. Rarely is that ever going to be because you did something. So and you might not know, you might not ever know if they get like the karma they deserve. You might not know because they're not going to tell you they're never going to show you that they've been hurt or taken down or whatever. They're going to twist everything to make it look like, you know, unless they get like thrown in jail or something. I guess you can't hide that. But I just want people to know that like the world does take care. We'll take care of this. It might just not be on your timeline and you might not get to see it. See it. See patient. Some radical acceptance. We love that.

1:19:06And detach. We talk about detached with love, but it might not be small. Well, I mean, love in the workplace that sounds weird. Yeah. So I guess it doesn't, it's not totally fitting, but detaching from what was with compassion instead of love, maybe. Maybe, or I guess I'm saying like you may have to detach. Detached with love isn't always romantic. That might be with anybody that you have cared for or something that you loved. There might have been a season of your work. Your of your career that may have been in the thick of the narcissism, but it still was a really sweet season. And you may have to grieve that that's not going to happen again, the way that it did. But you have to detach from hoping that my because it's just not like maybe one. I don't know what I'm gathering. When she said radical acceptance that it came to mind that there might be some things you have to detach from because you maybe we're clinging to one way for so long.

1:20:12And for a while, it may be worked until I'm great. And you may have to detach from that. The love bombing period of things is allowed to like you don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water. So if you look back and you're like, oh my gosh, my first year there was like the best year of my life. It's killing it. It's still allowed to be a really good season. But now you know, okay, but I have to actually click on reality for myself. And because what people do, you hear this all the time is well, they were like that one so I know they can get back there. Like it's that it can get better kind of loop like the magical thinking or they've done it before I know they have the ability to do it. That doesn't mean that they're going to because that doesn't mean that that was authentically who they are. Like yeah, that guy was the most romantic sweet loving person that showed up on time and was nice to your family and did it when you started dating him. But he might have been doing that for his own gain rather than that's who he is. And so yeah, he can do it.

1:21:13Doesn't mean he's going to. So that's something I would definitely write down somewhere so you can remember like I have to stop doing the magical thinking thing because I'm now I'm in reality. I have to stay there. I didn't say this earlier, but along with like the documentation part, I would as much as you can if you're if your option is like I'm going to play the game. Try not to be alone with this person if you can help it. You can't always help it, but it's the most manipulation you're going to get is when you're cornered somewhere by yourself and your defenses are going to be more down. So you can't always hope that, but I would try not to have any serious or intentional conversations by yourself. Okay, good to know. And there you have it. A little bit of narcissism, narcissism in the workplace. I just look down at my notes and I just have to say this. The last sentence says most likely this will not get better.

1:22:15I think that that is well, you even highlighted it in yellow. It's like you really want to understand how, but that's a little truth. Yes, I'm there. Like you're just being as a therapist and you've walked alongside a lot of people that have come to you with their work things. And I'm sure that's something you have to tell clients. Yeah, we can't that's the magical thinking like this is probably isn't going to be better. So what do I need to withstand what it is or find myself safety? And I think that a way to take care of yourself is having a life outside of work and outside of that. And while talking about it at home with people might feel good for a minute, have boundaries around that too. Yeah. And give yourself a life outside of it. Find people that have nothing to do with any of that so you can have some separation. Yeah. Have game nights. Yeah. Because those bring joy. And then you're focused on something else. You can't in the middle of like a intense game be like, oh, and then this other thing.

1:23:18I mean, you can, but you're going to bring the vibe down. Yeah, no. Game nights are for good vibes. Yeah. Only. And that's exactly what they bring. We do have our Hasbro moment. So Hasbro has been sponsoring the last several weeks and we're on week six of highlighting a teacher. And this episode was. I have the heavier side dealing with narcissism at work. So I don't know any other way to roll into the Hasbro moment than to just jump right into the email that we got from one of you, which we've got two more weeks left. So if you want to highlight a teacher, you can send us an email, hey there at feelingthingspodcast.com. We've gotten so many wonderful emails and I wish we could highlight every single teacher. And selecting them has been difficult. Hard. We even got Chase involved because he's like, I'll help.

1:24:20And we loved this email that we got from someone named Carlin. So I'm going to read it now. Hello, Amy and Kat. I would love to nominate my husband, Brett Robertson, Mr. Robby or Robertson to his students. I'm going to do four year teacher recognition. My husband is an incredible fifth grade teacher at Fox or Elementary in Houston, California. But I hope I said that right. Houston. I don't know how else I would pronounce that. I just wanted to clarify that I didn't do that on purpose. But what makes him so special is that being an educator doesn't stop when he leaves his classroom. He truly has a heart for teaching, coaching, and helping kids grow into confident, kind, and capable young people. At his school, he continually takes on more than what is required of him. In addition to teaching his fifth grade class, he has stepped up to help provide PE for students because he believes kids deserve opportunities to be active, learn teamwork, and have fun at school. Even with everything he gives to his students during the day, he still finds ways to give more of his time to kids in our community.

1:25:26He volunteers what little extra time he has helping coach varsity baseball at our neighboring high school. And when he comes home, he is dad and coach all over again helping coach our two young boys and soccer baseball and basketball. One of the things I admire most about him is that he doesn't do any of this for recognition. He does it because he genuinely loves kids and believes in the impact a good teacher or coach can have on a child's life. Whether he's helping a student understand something they've been struggling with, encouraging an athlete, or teaching our own boys about teamwork and perseverance, he puts his whole heart into it. As his wife, I get to see the time, energy, patience, and love that happens behind the scenes. I'm incredibly proud of the teacher coach father and role model he is. A $500 Walmart gift card for games and supplies for his classroom would be such an incredible way to recognize someone who spends so much of himself making school a better place for his student. I can't think of anyone more deserving. Thank you for celebrating teachers and for giving me the opportunity to tell you a little bit about one who means so much to our family and our community.

1:26:32Many thanks, Carlin Robertson. So, Carlin, we will be sending a $500 Walmart gift card. Thanks to Hasbro for your husband's classroom. Shout out Mr. Robbie, get some games and supplies. And we hope that that brings him and his students so much joy. And if you were looking for joy, moments to bring joy into your home, Hasbro has so many games. So many. A limited. I mean, for all ages, you could bust out, guess who as adults, but you can also play that one with kids, Jinga, Monopoly. I mean trivia pursuit is a child and adult game. Scrabble, Yachtsy, Hungry Hungry Hip-O.

1:27:34Trouble. It's fun getting into trouble. Do you remember that? So there are so many and we are so grateful to Hasbro and for all of the amazing teachers. Yeah. And we hope you all have fun shopping at Walmart for your games and supplies. And we mostly hope if you're in a situation at work like the stuff we went over today that you find the help you need to have. Nice. Look at that. And then most importantly, you have the day you need to have. Bye. This is Amy Brown from Feeling Things with Amy and Kat. Back to school season always it feels like a fresh start, not just for kids, but for all of us. It's a great reminder to create new routines and find meaningful ways to connect with our family, friends and community. Hasbro games make it easy to gather around the table. Put the screens away, share some laughs and create joyful memories together.

1:28:36Whether it's Monopoly, Connect 4, Guess Who, or another family favorite, there's something for everyone. You can find these and other Hasbro favorites at your local Walmart, Walmart.com or simply tap the link in today's show notes to bring more play into your week. You know that feeling when you're out with friends and you're actually there for it? Present, social, having fun and still feeling like yourself? That's Hi-Yo. Hi-Yo is a refreshing non-alcoholic social tonic crafted with mood boosting, adaptogens, new tropics and botanicals designed to help you feel relaxed, uplifted and in the moment. Hi-Yo is it just another sparkling water or mocktail? It gives you the ritual, flavor and social connection of having a drink without the alcohol. So whether it's happy hour, a dinner party, catching up with friends or winding down after a long day. Hi-Yo gives you a way to enjoy the moment, stay present and still feel good the next day because current you can have fun and take care of future you.

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