Dealing with Burnout for Kids and Adults

0:00Welcome and welcome back, my wisdom of well-being and warm-backs, this is well-being in your wallet, the only podcast that claims to reduce burnout by 3, 4, even 500% brought to you by Affinity Federal Credit. On today's show, we have a topic at the intersection of financial and social well-being, burnout. If you've ever experienced burnout, probably know how much of a challenge you can pose and oftentimes you're in the thick of it before you realize you're even dealing with it. I'm Grant Gallagher, head of well-being here at Affinity Federal Credit Union, and joining me once again is a man who has been fighting off burnout largely and thanks to the good folks at Celcius Energy Drinks, but still occasionally calls his co-workers his kids' names and his caffeine-induced haze. It's my good friend and co-wombat Sean Lumitz. Sean, say hi to the folks. Hello folks, thank you as always for the interesting and fun-filled intro there, Grant, very much appreciated. For anybody that is a returning listener, welcome back. Anybody that this is their first podcast, they're listening to the fun that Grant and I

1:02have, welcome. And I think again, you're going to enjoy the podcast here, we'll have some fun today. And like I mentioned, Sean, hopefully that caffeine-induced haze doesn't make you call me out of your kids' names today. So let's kick this off with a little bit of a nice breaker. So how do you deal with stressful periods in life? Do you have any hobbies or habits that help that you can share with our listeners? Sean, I'll say the one thing that I try to do pretty regularly is really focus on what I can control. I try to do a really good job of leaving things out of my control, out of my mind to an extent and really focusing on, all right, what can I control? A lot of that is how I react to situations, right? That's on me. That I always have control over. So really just trying to have that mindset of control what you can control. And as far as hobbies, I enjoy driving. Going for a drive is definitely something where it's like, it's relaxing to me. And I'm not talking about down 78 in traffic, more back roads in 100 in County is where I enjoy driving. So again, just getting out, driving, sometimes even just no music on, just relaxing, kind

2:07of clearing the mind while you go for a drive always works for me. What about you? You know, it's funny too, because it's like growing up, like my dad like to take like the back roads and long way in home every once in a while and I was just like, but dad, we could be home five minutes faster if we just went on the highway, you know, and now I'm like, I get it, like, you know, the drivers in New Jersey are crazy enough, like, you know, enjoy the scenery, the greenery every once in a while and, you know, take the back way. You know, for me, my kind of key stress management tools is exercise and sleep, both of which I never get enough of. You know, I've just found that it's, you know, things just, oh, we seem harder and worse and bigger than they actually are when you're tired and it's just like, you know, after I finally get myself to work out or actually really do get a good night's sleep, like those challenges don't really seem so tough anymore and they don't seem so insurmountable. So it's like, those are really two things and I'm not just like talking about like, oh,

3:11good, you know, six, seven hours, like, make sure you get like a good, good night's sleep or like, you're uninterrupted, you're sleeping through, you're comfortable, you know, kick the dog out, he's sleeping in the crate tonight, you know, get that good sleep, you know, I'm saying? Yeah. Yep. Totally great. All right. So, you know, today we're talking about burnout, right? It doesn't just happen at work and it doesn't only affect adults. So in today's episode, Sean and I are going to take an honest look at how burnout, burnout shows up across your entire family, you know, from overwhelmed kids, juggling school, homework and packed activity schedules to adults, navigating work demands, caregiving and financial pressure, you know, burnout has really become, unfortunately, a shared experience in many households. So we'll unpack how financial strain in particular can intensify burnout for adults, affect decision making and even, you know, your family dynamics managing this kind of stress may be eased by creating healthier routines, setting boundaries around school, work and

4:12extracurricular activities, and then having open conversations that prioritize well-being without guilt. And then of course, by recognizing burnout early and working together as a family, you know, it's possible to build that more sustainable, supportive rhythm that allows everyone to recharge and thrive. So, you know, and of course, listen, going into this, there's a lot of psychology behind it, Sean and I are not mental health professionals, we're just kind of two clowns with a microphone that somebody, you know, gave to us, but we do live this, we do breathe this and, you know, Sean, have you ever felt burnt out before? For sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think it happens to the best of us and being able to speak about it and kind of share best practices goes a very, very long way. Yeah. So I understand that it's not just you. Yeah. And this is our experience and, and you know, what we've learned along the way, but, you know, listen, if you are truly dealing with some sort of mental health crisis, please, please, please seek out professional help and do not just trust us as being the end all

5:16be all authorities. So with that being said, Sean, you know, what is burnout and, you know, how is it different from just plain old stress? Yeah. So I think stress, to me, stress is more, it's a reaction, right? And I don't want to say it's a moment in time, but it's usually a shorter period of time, right? Yeah. You feel a lot of pressure at work. You're still very engaged. You have a tight deadline. You need to make sure that you get X, Y and Z done before Friday, right? Yeah. It can be very stressful, but you're still in it. You're still, you're working very hard to try to get everything done. Burnout is really kind of that prolonged stress, right? That prolonged period of stress where instead of functioning at a high level and trying to, you know, even just be nervous or engaged and be like, I need to get this done. You're almost just kind of giving up. You're like, it's just no matter what I do, it's not going to get better. I'm burnt out, I'm tired. It's just not a fun place to be. So again, I think managing stress is extremely important to make sure you don't get to that

6:17burnout phase. Yeah. I like to kind of think of it as like you have like your, your bucket of energy, right? And it's like slowly things, chip away at it and it drains your bucket and like, you know, once, once you hit empty, I guess maybe a better analogy would be a battery than a bucket. But anyway, you know, stress slowly drains away at your energy and your battery is empty. And that's kind of the point of, of when you've, you've hit burnout and it's just like, you know, everything is just harder and more challenging and if it doesn't just seem outright impossible, you, you have a harder time coping, right? Yeah. It's like I said before, everything just seems bigger and you're just more, more irritable. Yeah. So. Yep. And so, and burnout too. And you just said like everybody, everybody handles it differently, everybody manages with it differently, but it can obviously manifest differently in different people. So how can you tell if you're personally experiencing burnout? Like what, what would you think that they should be on the lookout for?

7:19Yeah. So I mean, personally, when I start to feel burnout, like I start to lose focus, I have a harder time concentrating, you know, and it's like instead of breaking out my usual to-do list and into individual tasks and steps and kind of conquering those one at a time, I lose that focus and I just like start to try to do a little bit of all of them, all at once and do everything terrible and feel like I'm getting nowhere because I'm not getting anywhere because I'm trying to do everything all at once. So it's kind of this like self perpetuating stress cycle of, you know, I'm stressed because I'm not getting things done, but I'm not getting things done because I'm stressed and then I'm burned out and then, you know, it just kind of snowballs on itself. So you know, unfortunately, it's like you really need that sense of accomplishment or organization to help keep you motivated a lot of the times. So you know, sometimes it's just taking that step back and recognizing that you're facing that burnout that could help.

8:20I mean, honestly, I've even heard it's like people get so bad that they have like headaches or just like panic attacks and it's like it can be, you can have serious physical symptoms that that manifests from this. Yeah, absolutely. I would totally, totally agree with you. I feel like it's just, yeah, it's not a fun place to be. And I think there's ways that you can, you can help prevent burnout, right? Because at your point, it's, you know, having that stress and again, being engaged and then burnout, just feeling like, I don't know, feeling like you're always, you're busy, but you're accomplishing nothing to your point, like having that to-do list that never gets anything crossed off. But you feel like you're super stressed out and everything has to happen, but nothing seems to get accomplished. They get not, not a fun place to be. Yeah, totally. So you know, Sean, what are your thoughts on how you can address burnout and especially when you're in a situation where you need to keep working and, you know, you can't, there isn't really a way to remove yourself from that stress to the stressful situation. Yeah, I think setting boundaries for yourself, right?

9:24Like what? What can you do and what you can you not do and it's not because you don't want to, but just making sure that you're, you're clear about those boundaries of what can be accomplished. Yeah. Prioritizing self-care, I think it's always going to go a long way. So again, I think like you said before, you know, working out, getting sleep, those are things that you need to do to kind of take care of yourself and making sure that, that does remain a priority, adjusting workload expectations will always be a big one for me as well, making sure that you're having the conversations with your peers, with your manager, can you get done what you need to get done? And is it something that, you know, you can lean on a peer to help with during that time of need and then I guarantee you, they'll be going through something in the future and you can, they can lean on you and kind of having that reciprocal, that relationship really would go again, a long way, having the seven to nine hours of sleep, I think you sleep what, two, three hours a night grant. So increasing that, increasing that, that's that seven to nine hours of sleep.

10:24And then one thing that I, that I kind of went through and I think really does help is reconnecting with hobbies and starting to prioritize some of those things that make you happy and kind of get your, your mind out of that zone of stress, right? So if that's, if it's video games, if it's going for a ride, if it's kind of tinkering and building things out of wood, whatever it might be, start to pick up some of those hobbies or those hobbies that would make you happy, even if it takes your mind away from the stressful situation, whether it's work or something personal going on, it's a nice way to kind of get out of that mindset for a little bit and recharge those batteries. Yeah, digging in on those things that like really mattered to you and have meaning really helps you kind of recent to yourself. And one of the things that I had, I think where I heard this analogy, but it was like, you know, when you're on an airplane, they always tell you it's like, put on your own oxygen mask before you help anybody else. And it's like, that's the case of, you know, a lot of parents, what they experience is like they give so much of themselves to their kids and, you know, just doing everything

11:26for them and focusing on their needs. It's like they forget to put on their own oxygen mask and take care of their own, their own selves and it reduces their capacity to help the people that rely on them. So it's like, you know, you really need to just really make sure that you're not forgetting about taking care of yourself. And I mean, honestly, the best thing you can do is learn the signs of how they manifest in you and better identify it early because it's like, you know, the earlier you recognize it, the sooner you can course correct. And it's like, once you're really deep in that burnout hole, it's just that much harder to get yourself out. It's a lot more work. It's going to be a much longer time horizon before you can make any sort of meaningful change. You know, one of the things that I like to encourage people to think about too is like, you know, a lot of people find burnout and stress from their job and from their work. But you know, talk to the powers that be, talk to your boss about what's, you know,

12:30what you're going through and, you know, figure out a way with them, hopefully they're a reasonable person on how to get out of that situation. The reality is is, you know, we are more productive, useful human beings when we are fully functional and not burned out. So it's like, even if you're your boss is the kind of person that only cares about ROI and output and all that, it's like the value is there in you being centered and your normal self and fully healthy, so that the value proposition is there to kind of figure out a way to make you back and out of the burnout state and feeling better. So yeah, and I love your analogy of the oxygen mask, right, because again, if you're not taking care of yourself, how can you help take care of the others others around you? So question for you that is how can you help others deal with burnout, right? If you feel like someone is really going through it, how can you help them through that burnout? I mean, it's one of those things where it's like you, even if you know what they're going through,

13:37it's, you know, it can come off wrong if you're like to, I don't know, just like trying to give them advice. Like don't come at it from a place, even if it's from a place of good intent, you know, try to be supportive and empathetic, you know, just sometimes people can feel better by feeling seen that somebody, you know, knows that they're going through the situation and, you know, that can be a burden off their shoulders, you know, and, you know, push for them gently to try and take action and get advice and not kind of feel like they're in this hopeless situation that they can't get themselves out of because, you know, some, again, it's like sometimes if you're in that state, you're just so focused on trying to get these tasks that are causing you all this stress done, you're not even, you're not seeing the farce from the trees. You don't realize that you're in this situation. It's just kind of helping them recognize that what they're dealing with and that there is a way out can be a huge help. Yeah, I think just, yeah, I don't mean to cut you off,

14:42just now, you're a great person to you and I talk about it all the time. Just, they get having someone that you can vent to, that you trust, to your point, you don't need to solve. Sometimes it's not even a conversation or a problem that has a solution. It might just be frustration and just hearing someone out and letting them vent and kind of get it off their chest can, can relieve some of that stress. So it sometimes can be as simple as that as just having that person that you have relationship with the, with that you trust and just having that, that vent session. And then ideally, again, at the end of it, let's try to pick each other back up or pick the other person back up and like, how do we, how do we attack from a more positive outlook? But let's, let's have the conversation. Let's, let's get kind of the negativity out there in the air. Yeah, and you know, if it's somebody, somebody at home, you know, be there for them and try to help them, you know, figure out their way, their path back to at a burnout. But, you know, if it's at work, if it's, if it's a coworker or colleague, whatever, you know, you might have

15:45an employee assistance program that you could refer them over to, there might be some other resources that that can help them with their situation. So it's, you know, there are, there are some resources and paths forward of what you can do there. So with that, we're going to take a quick break and be back right after this. At Affinity, we want to know you better and offer you the best resources to help you on your financial journey. Our professionals are here to assist you in reaching your financial goals with confidence. We also serve the community around us and host many events that our members can be a part of. Join us on one of our complimentary webinars. Learn more at AffinityFCU.com. And we're back. Where we left off, Sean and I were talking about burnout and how to deal with it with both your family and your colleagues. So Sean, you know, we've been talking a lot about co-workers and kind of things from a higher level, but how can burnout impact kids? Yeah. So this is a, this is an interesting one. So kids, obviously, there's a lot going on

16:45with kids these days. I feel like there's a lot of sports and extra curricular activities. And again, they're, they're just as much as likely to have burnout as an adult. When you talk about the impact on kids, I mean, physical health issues, right? So children that are just constantly tired, right? They don't, they have headaches, stomach aches, changes in their sleep or appetite can be a physical impact of burnout. There's the emotional behavioral changes. So increased irritability, mood swings, anxiety, depression, meltdowns, all emotional behavioral changes, academic decline, right? So I will, I will tell you I was not the best student in middle school. Probably elementary school was my, my bread and butter there and then definitely got better in high school, but declining grades, lack of motivation, difficulty concentrating and increased absenteeism, right? So just again, that's just not having that want to take on more challenges or continue to move forward. And then finally, or the social and personal withdrawal. So reduced

17:50engagement with friends and family and really not being as into or engaged or getting as much joy out of activities that previously brought them joy. So again, we can we can talk about adults all day long and burnout is very much real, but it is important to understand that children can also go through some some stressful times and some burnout as well. Yeah. And you know, so much of what kids do in their young lives is social, right? So it's like when you see them just kind of like get to the point where they're they're overwhelmed and they just kind of check out it's, you know, it's it's sad and it's, you know, a real sign that you need to intervene and help them out and recognize and you know, take action because it's like you said, I mean, kids today have more homework and extracurriculars than than ever before. It's like I think of my girls who are only five and it's like they have gym, they have gymnastics, they have Girl Scouts, they get these like, you know, weekly and monthly projects from school. You know, I can I can only imagine, you know,

18:51what the older kids who have these competitive sports schedules that have weekly practice or, you know, the ones that get homework every night and some are even working on top of that too. So it's just yeah, I mean, you you really have to keep an eye out on on your kids and advocate and jump out jump in when when you're seeing those signs, right? Yeah. And so what what are some of those signs that grant? So how can a parent recognize signs of childhood burnout? And then what's a good way for them to kind of intercede without making them feel scared or guilty, right? The worst thing you want to do is make your child feel even worse in that situation. Yeah. So I think you did a good job on on mentioning a lot of them, but it's like, you know, the just them seeing kind of check at checked out, tired, overwhelmed. Those are probably some good signs that something needs to change and they need to need a hand. The reality is people usually often manage to continue to function for quite some time, even after they start to experience burnout. But again, it's one of those

19:54things where it's like the earlier you can identify it, the easier it is to fix. So, you know, you really have to pay attention, look out for those grades starting to slip, you know, less interest in hanging out with friends, less interest in hobbies that, you know, they were probably previously really engaged in, you know, and look for just overall change in attitude, sleep patterns, things like that. So it might be a challenge when you're dealing with, you know, the moody teens and pre-teens and sometimes that's just the other thing. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, the good news is that older kids usually do have higher levels of self-awareness and, you know, changes in their world. So you can probably have a more productive conversation with them about how they're feeling and, you know, what's going on in their lives and really get a good idea of the stress that they're feeling even if they don't know that it's stress and, you know, identify it that way and start to course correct. But, you know, it's really important to point out

20:57that just because they're dealing with this stress and starting to feel the symptoms of burnout, it doesn't make them a failure that they need to potentially take a break. You know, they didn't do anything wrong. Anybody can overdo it. Everybody is different. Everybody has different reactions to things. So just kind of understanding and making sure that you contextualize it where it's like, this isn't a failure on you. This is just, you know, your over strong will to do all these things is not necessarily aligned with what your body can handle. You know, it's hard to learn limits when you're a kid, right? Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, what are, what are some steps that families can take to build that healthier balance between schoolwork and the extracurricular activities? Yeah. So I think one thing is planning, right? So a lot of the times, I feel like especially talking about after school activities and sports, it feels like chaos, right? Like, where

22:01are you going? What are you doing? What's happening now? Who's taking so and so here? Sometimes easier said than done, but trying to plan the best, as best as possible, to make sure that getting there and getting to those activities doesn't add that extra layer of stress. I would also say prioritizing downtime, right? So there needs to be some scheduled downtime where the child can be a child and do what they want to do and, you know, just even just relax, watch a movie even, right? We say, get outside and play, absolutely. But if they're running around all day after school and playing sports, like sometimes just having some time to chill is not a bad thing. Also setting limits for activities, right? So how often are you going to be doing this? How much are you going to put your time and effort into certain activities? And then one thing that really stood out to me when I was looking up some of these ideas of how to help children through this is model it as a parent, right? So make sure that you as a parent, you were kind of

23:03setting the tone of what it looks like to not be burnt out, right? And how to manage certain situations. And then finally, I would say also just encouraging to say no, making sure that your child understands that they have a say, right? If they don't want to play softball, if they don't want to be a girl scout anymore, if they don't want to do certain things, just encourage them to be open and honest about that rather than feeling like they can't say no. So everything then becomes a priority. And again, ultimately leaving to burn out. Yeah. And it's interesting because I like that you brought up the fact of parents need to be cognizant of what they're doing because it's so true. It's like if you see that mom and dad are out there, you know, constantly working 10, 12, 14 hours a day, they're just going to assume that that's the normal thing. And it's like if they're not keeping busy for all that time, like they're the weirdo when it's like, you know, mommy or daddy's just a workaholic, but they

24:07they're probably burnt out. Yep. Yep. So yeah, it's so it's so important to prioritize those just downtime unscheduled things like at our house every Friday is game night and every Saturday is movie night. It's like that's, you know, it's not negotiable. Like we're all going to get together. We're going to have a little stupid fun. And it's, you know, going to be relaxing. It's not going to be the normal just running around like it is the rest of the week and part of the weekend. So I love that. It's so important. Do you think then that parents can teach kids how to deal with stress by sharing their own, their own coping mechanisms, right? How can they turn difficult conversations into a positive, like even a bonding experience, right? So as a parent, you're feeling burnt out and you have ways to cope. Your children might not understand what they're even feeling. So how can you share some of that insight with them? Yeah, I mean, it's 100% you need to have that conversation about what stress is, how, how it triggers you, how

25:12it occurs, you know, just make them understand that feeling stress is a normal, healthy thing. But, you know, also understanding that having healthy coping mechanisms is also very important. It's like, you know, this is a probably a new new concept to them, but a lot of kids learn by observing or by having those conversations. So it's like having that conversation early, helping them learn how to identify when they're going through stress and figuring out ways to counteract it will just create a more healthy, resilient person. I mean, let's be honest, I think this is probably something that most people are age growing up didn't really have a conversation about. And, you know, I think about, you know, the first time I was really experiencing a ton of stress and burnout was in like my late 20s. And I had no idea what it was, you know, I had no coping mechanisms. I had no idea how to identify burnout. And it wasn't until the point where I was

26:17like in the, basically in the throws of like a panic attack, like at my desk where I'm just like, I don't know what this is am I dying? And then it's like, oh no, like, I just, I was not raised on how to manage my stress. Hooray. No, I think you touched on a lot of really good points there. It's I do think it's, it can seem like an intimidating conversation to have, which is funny to me, right? As a parent, being intimidated by having a conversation with your children. But I feel it, for sure, I don't know if you've ever felt it, but it's just a weird concept to be like, it's, you know, they're your kids. So just be open, be honest, have that conversation. And to your point, it's something that you could talk about when they're very young. And it's something that sticks with them for the rest of their life and can can help them in a lot of difficult situations. So very much worthwhile. Yeah, it's, you know, it's just giving them another tool in their tool set on, on tackling life, you know, it's, it's all sorts of crazy stuff out there. The, the, the,

27:21the, you know, there are worse things you can do than prepare them for managing and dealing with that, right? Yes. Yes. So Sean, it's that time. Is it that time? Yeah, we're getting out the burlap sack and we're checking out this episode's member mailbag. So if you have a question or comment for our member mailbag segment, send it to our inbox at member mailbag at affinityfcu.com, all one word. All right. So today's listener writes in, my son just started middle school, and it has been a stressful experience. He's having trouble adjusting to the schedule, making friends and keeping up with homework. How do I encourage him while also helping him build healthy habits like a positive work ethic? I want to make things easier for him, but I also recognize how tough transitions are a learning opportunity. Sean, what are your thoughts here? Oh, so I think being open and honest and having open clear communication is probably the number one

28:23thing I would say because again, I think it is a tough time, right? In a child's life, it's also a tough to, to go through that much change again with whether it be friends and school and everything in between, have open dialogue, create some kind of a plan as well to help them manage some of that stress or maybe relieve some of that stress for them, but I also think it's important to not give them all the answers, right? It is a time where they have to figure some things out for themselves, but I would just say for me, biggest thing is be open, let them know, and make sure that they're comfortable coming to you when they are stressed out. The fact that you know that they're stressed out and all these things are going on is probably a huge first step. There's probably some parents out there that have no idea. They think their kids are great, but they're really stressing about this time of their life. Just knowing that I think is a huge step in the right direction. Yeah, and I mean, listen, middle school is hard. It's just education perspective,

29:29it's tough from a social perspective, it's tough. I mean, throw in just, you know, it being a completely new school and everything you knew for the last, you know, five, six years of how your schedule works is completely different. And usually you're, you know, it's like a new environment with more kids, you know, usually at least here in New Jersey, it's like we have a couple of elementary schools that all feed up to a single middle school. So it's, yeah, it's a completely different social dynamic, you know, talking, talking these things through can help him kind of figure out the answers, right? It's like, you don't have to give him the answers, but just having the conversation, you know, finding out what the points of stress are, you know, and then coming up with ways to kind of navigate it, you know, it can really just come to a positive outcome without you feeling like you're trying to to baby him or really, you know, just taking away the solution, his problem solving skills that he's definitely going to have. And sometimes it's just helpful to have, you know, somebody cheering you on, right? So, you know, just, just reinforce that it is,

30:34I mean, one, recognize that, yeah, it's a tough, tough experience and there's nothing wrong with him feeling that way, but two, you know, cheer him on and be like, you'll get through this, you can figure this out. And, you know, I'm sure he will appreciate having somebody in his corner if you haven't made that clear that you are. Yeah, totally agree. Totally agree with everything you just said. Thanks, Sean. Yeah. All right. So that brings us to today's product spotlight. And that is Affinity's cash back plus account. So if you're looking for a way to make your money work harder for you, Affinity's cash back plus checking account, you can maximize your earnings and take control of your financial future. This account is designed to do more than just hold your money. It's built to reward you for everyday banking. You'll enjoy cash back on purchases, no monthly maintenance fees, monthly ATM refunds and even seamless savings features that make managing your finances easier than ever. So if you're ready to simplify your banking and boost your rewards, check out the cash back plus checking account from Affinity Federal Credit where your money goes further and your goals

31:37stay within reach. You can learn more at AffinityFCU.com forward slash cash back plus all one word. All right. And that brings us to the end of today's episode. You know, Sean, I'm starting to feel a little bit of that burnout. You know, it was a long, long episode. I think I'm going to need to to take take some self-care action, right? Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm one thing I'll tell the listeners again for just a kind of final thought is again, what works for me is try to think about and control what you can control, right? That's that's something that again has gone a long way with me over the years. And again, find that that group of people or that person who to your point before it is your biggest cheerleader, right? They're in your corner. You can go to them with anything even if it is just to vent and to have a conversation. Not everything needs a solution. Yeah. Sometimes you get there on your own, you get to that solution on your own, but really just having that person to kind of guide you through it and pull you up out of that that that burnout type situation. It goes a really long way. I think everybody can use that at some point in their life.

32:43So even if you feel like, ah, I'm always calling Grant, right? Grant's he's got it all together. I call him all the time and vent to him. There'll be times, you know, it'll be reciprocated and it'll come back to you. So again, just have that that core group to help cheer you along. Yeah. Just, uh, you know, go out there and try to be a good, good support of friend, a good listener. And, you know, that can go a long way. So with that, just a reminder, if you have a question or comment for a future member mailbag segment, you can send it to the member mailbag at membermailbag at phoenix.com. We always appreciate when you rate, like, and subscribe for more well-being and call it podcast. You can visit offendedfcu.com for additional information about natural wellbeing and food products. It should be kind of others. And as always, thanks for listening and be well.