CuriosityCast Ep.41 - Legal Matters with Wilkin Chapman Rollits

0:00Now then it's Burnty and welcome to our regular curiosity podcast, the curiosity cast. Every episode we take questions asked by members of the public in-hole and try to get them the best answers from the very best brains in the city. Not all questions are about hole, they can be about whatever you want to discover. For this episode we're going a bit different, it's time to get legal. We've received a few questions regarding specific areas of law, but rather me and producer Dave taking wild guesses at the answers, we're pulled in the experts. Laura Fahey and Emma Hamilton are solicitors for the esteemed hole firm of Wilkin Chapman rollets with specific briefs in Will's estates and tax planning, so to make best use of their skills we're concentrating on areas such as Will, Power of Attorney and probate.

1:06We should say that Laura and Emma are only able to offer guidance in broad general terms and any specific legal advice about your personal situation you should seek out your own solicitor. Laura Emma, welcome to the curiosity cast. Next up, Rollets is a name that's long been well known in-hole, is the Wilkin Chapman edition caused by a merger or similar as that fairly recent? We are almost at the anniversary actually of the merger which happened last year on the 1st of April, so Wilkin Chapman had quite an established background in the South Bank, Rollets in the North Bank and by coming together we're taking over the place by the sounds of it. So the big cake and champagne fairly soon then to celebrate. Sir, I don't think we're going to be able to put bonuses all around. Just mentioned you've been on the curiosity cast, there's bound to be a massive bonus for that. Let's get straight to the questions. Producer Dave will interject various points of the proceedings.

2:08This from Anna in HU5, the other news, I have elderly parents not in the best of health and someone mentioned that seeking power of attorney is a good idea, is it who wants to take that? Yeah, definitely a good idea to put powers of attorney in place, the Law Society recommends anyone over the age of 18 looks at putting one in, so there's two types, one for finance and one for health and it's just a case of putting someone in place that can assist you whilst you're capable and also in the event you lose capacity, that you trust essentially. Essentially, what is it? I'd give us the Janet and John version for me and Dave, really. So the quite formal document that somebody puts in place appointing somebody to step into their shoes in an event where they're unable to make decisions, so the finance one covers accessing bank accounts, speaking to pension companies, selling property, particularly relevant to somebody's not very mobile and can't get to a solicitor's office to sign

3:09forms or loss of hearing, can't ring somebody, so it's quite useful for the finance to deal with that. And then the health side of things, again, somebody's stepping into your shoes, so if you can't make decisions about treatment, care, where you're going to go with types of care, really serious decisions about operations, etc, then somebody's there already in place to make that decision for you and just make everything a little bit easier if it's smoother. Is this something you need a reasonable lead time and conversations with the person who you're going to have power of attorney over? So I can imagine these are quite difficult dynamics. So it happens the other way around, it has to be the person who wants the power of attorney for their decisions, it's their choice to put it in place. So it's not something a child can do on behalf of a parent, it has to be the parent making the decision. So it would be Anna's parents who wins, and they have to have capacity at the point they're doing the documents. What happens if they've not got capacity then and they need somebody to look after them

4:12in terms of making those sort of decisions? Well that would be then, if you haven't got a capacity to make power of attorney, it would be for family members to apply to the court of protection to look at getting a court order in place. It gets very complicated. Yeah, so you're looking at rather than maybe timescales of two to three months with a power of attorney and getting that registered and ready to go, it can be nine or ten months waiting for permission to deal with the affairs. It can be even longer. Yeah, I've waited it in, once to two years for deputorship orders on a kitchen. And if people, they really are all 18 months, it's a lifetime, isn't it? Yeah, and we've had people where we get the deputorship orders in and things have happened that treatment or medical issues have progressed and actually they don't survive very long after it. So you see, once nothing's been able to happen and actually the deputorship order's almost useless. So this is something really you should think about before you get to world and you should think about how we're going to be looked after when and all that, when I mean to. Yes, yes. And ask your kids, should it be your family member, can it be, if you've not got kids,

5:17can there be anybody? I think it's the case that it could be a friend. Someone really essentially in terms of your finances and your well-being, it's someone that you would trust to acting your best interests, really, so it's taking the time to make the right decision. Because you put in a lot of trust in a man. Yeah. And they're not a straightforward document because there is complexities, there is duties and powers in place and the safeguards there to make sure that the right person has, you know, the knowledge of what they've got to do, there's going to be a risk because people do abuse it, but currently with nothing in place, potentially you've got even more up and to abuse. Well, you're not even safe from yourself, it's almost not at all. No, not at all. I've got to say we did it for my parents a few years ago, me and my sister, a power of attorney. And when we lost my man, it was, it'd be dad said he wouldn't have got through it without the power of attorney being in place, you know, because we were able to handle so much of it that he just wouldn't, he said, I wouldn't have been able to do it if he hadn't. So he was delighted that we did it. And he was not complicated a thing to do or are expensive, really.

6:20Lots of people, I think, view it as something where it's only to be taken, it's only to be thought about at the point where you're losing capacity, but actually it can have much wider uses. Like you say, we've had loads of clients who ask their children to get involved because the situation is just overwhelming, they've still got capacity, but actually they really want the help and having that document already there ready to use allows them to step in immediately. And it can just make, particularly whether it's been a death of one party, the other party can, you know, just continue to manage doing things a lot easier with that knowledge that they don't have to take it all on themselves. When does it come into effect, then does it come into effect as soon as you've done it? Or you say, well, I think I've got five years before me had become a shed sort of stuff and then try and... Is that a common word? I don't think it's a legal frame. No, it's good for me. Maybe it is. Maybe I've got a future in the law. But before I sort of lose capacity, can I future-proof it?

7:22I might not want to give them capacity now or control power of attorney now. Do you see what I'm driving at? So for the documents to be actually valid, it needs to be signed by everyone. So by you making the document by your attorneys and dated, but actually before your attorneys to act under it, it needs to be registered with the Office of the Public Guardian, so they oversee it. So it's once that's registered that it can be used, but obviously whilst you've got capacity and you're able to manage your finances, it's up to you to make that decision about whether your attorneys help you or not. So you have? You continue to be in control. It's not a kind of sign on here in here. I didn't get handed across not at all. Suddenly, suddenly my kids are sold to house. I guess postcard may yacht in the centre of France, loving it now. Some of your kids are like that, but I at least I don't think they are. I'm not signed over power of attorney, you know? You never know. Are people having these conversations?

8:22Do you see an increase in number of people coming to you and saying I'd like to do power of attorney? Or is it still not enough people doing it? We quite proactive in asking the question, even if it is at an early stage when you've got a young couple with a young family, we still mention it so that it's almost been drip-fried to the point where they get it in place. Maybe when they feel like it's needed a little bit more or they're a little bit older, but at least it's been mentioned. It tends to also then prompt them thinking about their own parents. I personally think there has been an increase since COVID, because I think that in itself made everybody realise that capacity is not necessarily an old person thing, and it can actually affect everybody, and I think that panicked some people, so there was a lot of uptick, I think, and a lot more media around it as well. I don't want to scare anybody, but what are the downsides of not doing it? Well, you end up in your shed. I'm no, but it has been chad, you're anything. You're a rudderless shed with a head like a shed.

9:26I think that's a deal, you're in it, is if you lose capacity in some way, and it doesn't have to be dementia or anything like that, you could beat by a bus, you know, looking on the bright side, but it's in any way you lose capacity or are unable to look after yourself, there's somebody who can just step into your shoes, and it's about looking after your wishes, it's about making sure your wishes are kept, not the legalities of it, but just anything in terms of wills, money's, funeral arrangements are all in place with somebody else. I think you're right, you do need a lot of conversation, we had a lot of conversation with parents before, but then when we did it, it was actually a really, really pin-free process, there's just a few cognitive questions in there, and that's about it really, it's relatively simple to do. You mentioned cost earlier, roughly, how much does this sort of process cost, people, the interest? To deal with it on a fixed fee basis, because they're all separate documents, we're essentially charging the client per document, so there's a starting fee, because the most of the work

10:29is done for the first document anyway, and then there's an add-on for every additional one, so for instance, a couple doing both documents, we were charged 1,700 pounds plus VAT, and then there's a registration fee per document, which is 92 pounds currently per document. So you've got security and everything like that for well under 2 grand, well under 2 grand, I don't know why you're here, so you've done it sorted, I don't know why you're going. Yeah, and there is no time scale on them, so you do it now, unless you have a reason to change it, revoke it in the future, then it lasts until you do. I found it, I found it, it's a lot of stuff out that could attend into a lot of arguments and mess, you know. Well, you were involved with that, I don't know. Well, it didn't do that, me and my siblings, you know, have to be like, look, look, let's get back to the serious stuff. Clare and Hazel, can I have power of attorney over a parent and still be the executor of their

11:30will or executor of not executor? You wouldn't get any money if you were the executor, you just made your choice, you'd be doing the porridge. I used to be able to read at one point. It means the same thing, you know, the least you said, definitely. Or can I only be one or the other? Well, no, there's nothing stopping you being an attorney and an executor of someone's will. It's just their different documents, so like we've said, the last in power of attorney is now, while someone's alive, whereas the will comes into effect when they die, it's just a case of deciding whether someone is appropriate for both roles really, because you might have named someone as an attorney for a health power attorney, because they're more inclined to be able to make decisions about your where you live, your day to day routine and your medical treatment, whereas that person might not necessarily be as good with paperwork. So with an executor, you're looking at someone who's going to be happy to look at gathering together or your finances and calculating

12:34the value of your estate and there might be inheritance tax involved. So it's just thinking about who's best suited for roles. I guess the question is based on, is there a conflict of interest really in there? Yeah, and I don't think so. It's like the start of a night, get to the crystal, you know? Yeah, and I think, so you wanted the solicitor's office. And I think it's the thing is, when you're in attorney, you're handling that person's money and you're accountable for dealing with it. So if you're all there executor, in a way, you've already got the information to hand you a very familiar with their affairs, so it's sort of a natural carry on from it. I think the concern about being conflict of interest would only ever come into effect if you're appointing people that you don't actually trust you deal with it in the first place. Yeah, they never ever let suggest you do. Yeah, don't appoint anyone evil. It's as simple as that in it. You watch yourself there. It's because it's quite the extreme. I'm not sure it's as obvious between families and times. You've got all this rapidly approaching. Thanks.

13:37I'll try and make the end of this episode of the Curiositycast. If I don't, my estate will still bill you. I know. You normally flag around 16 minutes, you know? We should say, this is the latest episode of the Curiositycast. You're listening to God bless you for that. Thank you very much for your company. Our guest today, Laura Fye and Emma Hamilton, solicitors for whole firm of Wilkin Chapman-Rollett's. Well, whole and grooms be south of the river. We've established that already. This one, Tracy in H.U.3, which is on Anla B. Road. My mum passed away recently and though she left a fairly comprehensive will, some pieces of her estate ended up in probate. Why does this happen? Maybe we should explain first what probate is. Don't all rush at once. I think that this seems to be a bit of a misconception as to what probate generally is. We have lots of clients who don't necessarily understand it. The process of obtaining a grant of probate

14:42is essentially applying to the court with what we either think is the final will or with the legal circumstances of the family to ask for formal authority from the court to either deal with the estate in accordance with the will or in accordance with the law if there isn't a will. It's essentially a court order which gives somebody authority to actually deal with the assets. Every situation needs that. No. No. Every bank financial institution, every company has its own rules. There is no set standard. Somebody like the land registry, if there is a property and somebody's name, they will insist on a grant of probate being obtained before they will allow any transfers of the property to happen. But certain banks have a threshold that's quite high, so if you had a bank account with maybe £30,000 in it, as long as you sign the form, show them the will and the debt certificate, they'll release it without a grant of probate. So it's a case of working at what assets there are, finding out the rules for those particular financial institutions, and if you

15:45need a grant for one, then you have to value everything in order to apply for the grant. So that's where it gets a little bit tricky and I think misunderstood at times. Well that's presumably what you've got solicitors for, which is why you do all this planning, etc, etc, so you don't get in that situation. Yes, no. I don't think a grant is something you can really plan for, so I think people try it. So trying to put properties into people's names in advance of death, etc. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, it can actually make things worse at times, but I think people look at how getting a grant of probate sometimes is quite scary or a really formal option, but actually it's not that complicated. It's just the process of getting there, there's a lot of paperwork involved, that's all. It takes a while, doesn't it, probate? Not the moment, no, no, no, no, I mean, again, it depends upon the value of someone's estate and whether there's going to be inheritance tax paid, because obviously then that can't take longer, there's

16:46a formal process to go with, but if you have a relatively straightforward estate, then you are looking at, we were looking at a lot longer timescales, but it can be a couple of months now. Well, I'm sorry. I've had one a lady who died in January and I got the grant on the 3rd of March. So what, just that of interest, because I think to remember not that long ago, probate, red stories in the newspapers are one of the same probates taking ages, what's changed of the... There was a huge backlog caused by Covid, huge backlog, and they were quoting 16 to 20 weeks for any grant to come back, and they were also saying you're not allowed to chase us at all until 16 weeks has passed, so we couldn't even check up where things were just drifting, but now, anything simple, as long as there's a will and everything's, you know, all the teas are crossed and the eyes are dotted, we are getting them back once submitted within sometimes days, but most of the time, two to three weeks. All right, good, well, what is there in? The more complex estates don't get me wrong, there's a two-stage process, they do take much longer,

17:50but for simplest days, yeah. Is there a, there's probably a deaf question, are specialised in them? Is there a, is there a lower ceiling? Is it like if it's under 10 grand, it doesn't go to Pearl Bear, is it literally from Penny One? So, for instance, National Simonsensitive and Investments, when I and I, they're threshold for release in pre-immune bonds, used to be £5,000, so if you had more than that, they would insist on a grant, even if there was not a grant necessary for anything else, and there was no other accounts. Right. So each institution literally has its own rules. So there are lower limits, but it's just fair resolved with the lower level of the place. And it's subject to change as well, so I think when you've talked about, can you plan, can you sort of plan your affairs to avoid getting a grant, or needing a grant to probate, you can't because they're changeable, so the rates that, the, the limits that might have been there two years ago are different now. So it's a case of when someone passes away, it's approaching all the banks and checking with them really to see what their requirements are.

18:51Murder. It sounds like murder. It's not mentioning murder. Oh, shouldn't make you murder. I mean, it sounds very, I think murder in terms of very difficult. It's just like an ethical issue now, but yeah, I'm not sending anybody from murder, anybody. I'm saying, it sounds very difficult. Yeah. There's a lot of paperwork involved and I think that's what overwhelms people a lot of the time, yeah. Yeah. So you need to nail the will as well as... The clearer the will is, the more straightforward it is, and not necessarily making your assets clear or planning too much, but identifying them, making sure the people who are actually going to be looking after them and sorting them out, know where they are, what they are, because... What goes in the will? Is it anything of value? Is that the idea? We don't generally tend to specify everything. We sort of have a, there's a catch-all provision which kind of covers everything, and then if you've got specific wishes, a specific bank account, shares or a house, etc. You might identify them as a specific gift, but I generally don't go through everything. You'll put your lawn lonesome stuff like that. It's an easy thing to

19:57possibly make. Absolutely. A sit-on. The tractors, personal possessions are still an asset, so they still can go in there either individually or as a general gift, absolutely. Have you got a Gucci lawn? I've got a streamer. I don't think gathering with my kids will want it. It's ruby. Should we buy it? You know, obviously I'm going to think about it. I don't want to be stripper and it'll be in pro-bet. Yeah. Things like that, yeah. I just definitely don't know, I don't think any of that. The lower limit is any gown equipment below lawn lonesome. I think it's also things that can be physically handed over. All right. So, you know, you knick-knacks, you close, you furniture, anything like that does not require authority from somebody else to take possession of. Right. Whereas a house deed or a legal title requires the transfer and the transfer won't happen unless the land registry of the right document. Yeah, so it could be the user manual on your lawn lonesome.

20:57It depends if there's a warrant. It might be the warranties. He will have a warranties. He feels in the warranties. It's nonsense. It's just excuse for them to get your e-mail address off you. That's all right. Sorry I got off of you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're on a flight offensive and I'm not sure you brought the ticket. Let's continue with Will's. George, George, you know, you've eight, you've five. The other news area says, I've written My Will on a computer and printed it off. Will people know it's genuine? My will, if it isn't handwritten. Do people do their own wills? Well, we certainly don't handwrite them. That was a definite task. Yeah, so you do find people doing home made wills. They do, they do make them. Are they legal? Well, I think the question would be they have to follow for a will to be valid. You have to follow the legal requirements. So it doesn't need to be handwritten by any means, but obviously it needs

21:57to be, it needs to have, it needs to be witnessed. Obviously, it needs to be signed and needs to be witnessed by independent witnesses. And so I wouldn't be worried about it being handwritten. I'd be more concerned about whether it followed those requirements really. And I think that's why seeking professional advice when you're making a will is important. Because sometimes home made wills can you can miss key elements within a will, which can actually trigger more complications. I don't think the fact that it's typed a handwritten is relevant. It's more about what the content of it is. It's the witness in it, really. Well, it's not just one witness you actually. Two independent witnesses who are present both at the same time that you're present. So essentially three people in a room knowing that somebody's signing a will at the same time. So you said earlier that we should be doing power of attorney like early in our lives. Obviously, we're not your man doll living here. It's hit home. It's hard working with you as age to make. Just when should we be doing our will? Well, anyone over the age of 18 can make a will and I think

23:01it's a case of thinking about what assets you have. So if someone owns a asset that they have money in bank accounts or they have a property, then they should be thinking about looking at their affairs and whether it be relevant and people have children. You need to consider a point guard and you need to update quite regularly that. Oh, whenever something significant happens. Absolutely. Yeah. Which is a question we'll come to and we'll expand on that. I think a people good at doing it. Have they got better at doing it? Or is it an afterthought? And it's only really happens when you get to the knocking on stage like Miss Alton Dave. But families are used to having money. Because it gets offended. Very less so. Families who are used to having assets and wriggling contact with solicitors are quite good about getting the next generation in and introduced and being part of the process from the beginning. So I think it's I think lots of people don't even think about it at 18. But if you've got your own money in a bank account and a car at 18, then without a will, it's a complicated process to get

24:02access to those because there isn't an obvious person. There isn't somebody who has that authority because you are no longer a child. So the parents don't have the same rights anymore. I'm 18 year old with cars. Dangerous. I don't suggest it was a good idea. I'm just there as an example. I don't think 18 though. You think about the mess you leave behind, do you know? Well, well, true. What is the mess you leave behind if you don't have a will? Say you're a normal person. I don't know where I was talking about it. You're still wrong. Yeah, I'm sorry. Resorting to cliche here. But, you know, you're a couple. You've got a couple of kids and you've not got a will and sadly, you both pass away. You've not done a will. What mess does it leave behind? That is entirely dependent on the circumstances for the family because there isn't a document that tells us what happens who has authority. So, therefore, you have to revert to the rules of intensity and they set out who has the right to do what, who has the right to get what.

25:02And if you've got minor children, unmarried partners, you know, there's all sorts of complications so it really depends on the circumstances. So, being unmarried and living in a house, owning a property, having children is a absolute, you really, really have something in place because you can leave an absolute devastation behind. And I think it's the stress for the people that have been left behind. So, if you've got that scenario where you're an unmarried couple with children and the surviving partner, finding out, realising that they actually haven't got any entitlement to the estate, perhaps, when they maybe thought there's a misconception that there's a common law marriage. And that isn't the case. You're going through a grieving period and then you're realising that actually you haven't got any security to potentially live in the property, what do you deal with the mortgage and everything else. So, that's real, really important to look at putting something in place. How many listed do you think we've traumatised so far? I've traumatised more. I'm just thinking of this scenario where you're actually married.

26:06It's not secure either because there is a sort of a set limit that the spouse is entitled to. But if you're a state of a million pounds, the spouse isn't entitled to it all if you've got children. The children are entitled to some of it. So, you might have it all wrapped up in a property or investments or pension pot for the future and actually all of a sudden your children are entitled to it and if they're mine as there's nothing you can do about it, they are entitled to it. So, having the will can change all of that. I've come none of this side, me. None of it. I can leave you my card. I need to. I just met with a game, I've got any of it, so I thought the only rarer boat I know else is always getting which picture of the wall. But your will can stop the rarers. There's certain pictures on the wall that they both want and I said you'd have to find out what I'd had to do. I couldn't make a list, could I? Two witnesses, that was all of all the arguments. Is it a vanguard for? I've got to say I have some valuables. I'm not ferrons,

27:09but I have some valuable outcomes. Right, you know, I've been saying the house is worth a lot more. Okay, but the way I went down, that didn't. No, that's bad. So just scared you, that's what it is. Oh, that's fine. I'm absolutely petrified. I've just suddenly seen the time we've been cracking on. Ashley and Gypsyville, quick question, how often should I update my will? Ah, I would recommend every three to five years without a change of circumstances. And if there is a change of circumstances, financial, family, whatever it is, that that's another trigger point as well. And it doesn't necessarily mean change it, it just means get it out, review it, does it still work? If you're not sure, speak to a solicitor, speak to somebody who advised you about it. So it needs you to trust your any money, you could just be, you have that's fine. Exactly. Yeah, particularly getting married as well. A lot of people don't realise that obviously marriage revokes or will, unless you've made it in contemplation of of that marriage to that person, say, there's another chance I referred to the parents to be.

28:12Yeah, divorce doesn't, but marriage does. Oh my god. So there's another, when people get divorced, again, the will isn't invalid, although if they died while still technically married, the partner is entitled to things, that's another reason why. This podcast is going to cost me a fortune. If they died and forensics discover a frying pan in them. Divorce. On that, how, you know, I'm conscious of the time, I think we've got a joke, just so we can write that. It's a difficult subject in time. No, it's not the easiest to book. I think it's been fascinating. Thank you very much. So thank you very much for your time, Laura Fahey, and Emma Hamilton, from Wilkin Chapman-Rollitz, of joined us on this edition of the Curiosity Cast. Thank you very much for coming. It has been fascinating and scary at the same time.

29:17Do come back again, because I'm sure there are more questions that we've got. Remember to keep in touch with us via curiosityhold.co.uk or follow and friend us on the socials where we curiosity hold on all the main feeds. We'll be back very soon with more quality answers. To whatever question you'd like to ask.