Cindy Wanner

0:00Hello everyone and welcome to episode 535 of the True Crime all the time podcast I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime might Gibson. Give me how are you? I'm good man in yourself doing great. Yeah, we just talked on patreon about all the good television shows We're watching. No, there's so many out there It's kind of hard to get them all in I feel like I need to develop my own series. Yeah, that would be gangbusters There's the name gangbusters All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the time? I'm ready. We're talking about Cindy Wander in November 1991 Cindy Wander was abducted from a suburban home outside Sacramento and strangled to death Decades later facial recognition technology help solve the murder 35 year old Cindy was a devoted mother of two She was married to Bob winner and they had two children who were four and 11 months old at the time of Cindy's death little was

1:05Yeah, it's it's heartbreaking right anytime Someone is killed, but then you look at the scenario right? She's got a four-year-old. She's got an 11 month old They're not going to You know get that time with her No growing up and you know kids need that they need their their mom they do and then you then you start to think about okay all the milestones So every birthday every Christmas graduation getting married and it just makes it even that much more Heartbreaking I mean for the 11 year old. I mean 11 month old. I mean love mothold I remember when kids start walking and talking and some about I think my oldest started about 11 months. Yeah Walking missing all that, you know missing the you know time that you don't have to change diapers anymore

2:06I don't miss those days, but Cindy and Bob moved to Rancho, Cordova, California from Denver in 1990 after they both lost their jobs Bob was working as a trunk driver at the time of his wife's death You know you and I have talked a lot about Denver. We spent a lot of time in Denver We had a company that we worked without in Denver So we had to go out there both of us did yeah, and it's a great state man It's beautiful. Oh, yeah, and I love the city of Denver Colorado's great. It was a beautiful. Yeah, it really is Cindy's oldest sister Elaine described her as a very religious woman and a devoted mother with no enemies, okay, well, we already know that she's going to be found Strangle to death so for investigators You're starting out with the woman who Allegedly has no known enemies. Where do you go? She had to make somebody upset? Yeah to want to kill her

3:09Unless this was just an opportunistic type of stranger murder About six weeks before Cindy went missing her sister Susan and her husband Phil moved into a new home in Granite Bay suburb of Sacramento Cindy was paid to clean her sister's house on Monday Cindy had recently spoken to officials at her church about getting help finding a job several weekends before her death Cindy collected a box of clothes from the church to put on a garage sale to help pay for an Euror operation their youngest daughter need it Okay, so I mean she sounds like she's doing what she can to help out right? Yeah, but it also sounds like you know they they couldn't have been You know in the best place financially They both lost their jobs. That's why they had to move to California. I mean Bob's working She's still looking for a job. She's cleaning her sister's house

4:10But the other thing is you can see and this happens a lot with the church right people will oftentimes really come together and help out You know a member of the congregation who's in need and it sounds like they were you know An ear operation for their youngest daughter that's not elected. That's not You know something that you know you're not straightening teeth This is something that really needs to be done needs to happen it needs to happen and I'm sure it's not cheap On November 25th 1991 Cindy went to her sister's home in granite bay to clean She brought her 11 month old baby with authorities believe Cindy was abducted between 1230 and 115 p.m This was between the time her sister and brother or in law left the house And Cindy's husband bob arrived to pick her up. Yeah, it's just fairly small window

5:11That's what I was thinking. I just talked about you know, here's a woman who people said you know have no Known enemies, but they do have what appears to be a pretty small window of time. Yeah, when they believe That this abduction took place Bob told police that he was bringing over a load of wood Susan and Phil's old house and had just picked up their daughter from daycare when he arrived at the house to get Cindy Bob rang the doorbell But there was no answer He heard his younger daughter crying inside The front door was unlocked so he entered the house He found the baby sitting in her high chair at the dining room table where she had been When Cindy sister and brother-in-law left So I just got done talking about right here's a woman no known enemies That that doesn't give investigators much to go on, but they do have a pretty small

6:14Window of time here where they believe the abduction happened and then it's like You know as you're putting it all together It seems pretty obvious to me and I think it would to investigators that This happened pretty soon after her sister and brother-in-law left The baby was already, you know like in a high chair And then the baby still in that high chair. Yeah, so Somebody came in abducted You know Cindy left the baby And then her husband comes in and finds the baby If if I was the husband I'd be wondering did I just miss him that I just oh I mean how close was I to getting there when this was a whole ticket place was at five minutes was at 30 minutes right 45 minutes. It's Somewhere in there did I be thinking about all the cars I passed Head it there coming in did I see the yeah did I miss some

7:14Cindy's brother-in-law fill called the house around one 15 p.m. To talk to Cindy Bob answered and asked where she was so You know at you're you're finding out a little bit more right how they came to this kind of Small window of time Concerningly Cindy left behind or shoes and her cut But seemed to have taken her purse with her and this is something that we talk a lot about especially on unsolved right? What do people leave behind and Sometimes it's in the context uh well did they uh You know up and leave to start a new life where they're not happy But here There's a couple of things that are jumping out to me First of all What mother's gonna leave her 11 month old baby Just sitting in the high chair very unlikely very unlikely and then Who leaves the house without your shoes or a coat well yeah

8:18I've been on what the weather's like yeah, that's what I'm saying yeah I go out all time without a coat. I don't leave the house barefoot That's kind of a non starter for me What if she was abducted right they're not gonna take those items Maybe they grabbed the purse because maybe they think there's a way to get some money from her Yeah, maybe her ATM card is in there or cash is in there or whatever But they don't care if she has to walk barefoot no possibly Bob called the police to report his wife missing and Now that that has to be a really tough one You know for a husband would be for a wife if it was the other way around Officers found no signs of a struggle in the home But Cindy had vanished Her family knew she would never abandon the baby. No as you just talked about what who would ever leave a 11 month old yeah um And they knew she wouldn't leave without you know her coat or shoes Or a vehicle right how what is she gonna do she's walking on foot yeah to where barefoot yeah

9:25Doesn't make any sense Investigators wouldn't comment on whether Bob was a suspect But family members told the Sacramento B that Cindy and Bob had a really strong marriage now Make of that What you will because we've done many cases where The marriage was said to have been great. There's no cracks there You know these people are the perfect couple and then you know It all starts to come out that no they weren't right one was cheating on the other or One was plotting to kill the other or did kill the other But that wouldn't surprise me right Bob May not be called a suspect but at the very least he has to be a person of interest Oh, I think for sure yeah the husband's always gonna be they're gonna look into until they're they're ruled out yeah Pastor Glen Cole of the Capitol Christian Center told the B that when he arrived at the house Bob was lying in the backyard

10:29sobbing uncontrolled and You know you would expect a loving husband In that scenario where he thinks his wife has been abducted To kind of be Inconsoleable I think you'd be like that or you'd be so mad You know that you would just be screaming and just like yeah, yeah, but the thing is People can fake that they can you know it can be faked and please are normally pretty good especially detectives Edtelling what's real and what's not but you know they can't always Please call it off intensive search efforts on November 28th after sent dogs helicopters and ground searchers failed to find any trace of sending So That's why it's like three days. Yeah, you know But at a certain point when you feel like you know, there's nothing else to

11:31Look at or You know, you don't have a direction Right, you've probably gone within a certain radius Anywhere outside of that you'd just be throwing darts at a wall West true and spending a bunch of money and and using up a bunch of resources now if you're the family That's not gonna make you feel good, but it is the truth Yeah, I mean you at this point it's a need on a haystack. Yeah, at a certain point You're you're gonna have to wait to get some more information now investigators Had to resolve some possible sight on on December 3rd Placer county officials issued another plea for help inspector Johnny Smith said There was nothing in the family's background. It was out of the ordinary There were no indications that Cindy would have left voluntarily And I think that's true and in most cases What they so every now and then somebody says, you know, I hate my life. I don't want to

12:34You know go through this. I want to do something different Okay, well then maybe you start to think they could have Volunteerily left to start a new life, but in most of the cases that we've done that that's just not how it works Yeah, how it's been I can see where you say well maybe there's some that Uh Postpartum you know Depression depression driving this, but from everything that we heard I don't believe that that was a case so She didn't leave voluntarily that means somebody had to come and take her Mm-hmm. I mean it's the only option you have left, right? Yeah Uh, I don't know I can't think of another option Detectives had canvas granite bank and the surrounding area But there seemed to be no witnesses to Cindy's abduction on December 9th inspector Johnny Smith announced that Cindy's bank card was used less than four hours after she disappeared

13:36But police didn't find out until nine days later And that kind of is shocking it is to me you would think that would be one of the first things That you would Check on now. Maybe it takes some time or took some time back then, but Eight days, I don't think so. Yeah, so that's a bit of a bit of time You know to put something on her accounts to figure out whether or not her her bank card was used I mean, I would think a call to the bank or you know something like that they'd be able to get it Smith explained that this was due to a misunderstanding on the part of the Rancho Cordova branch of Wells Fargo. He said the bank was asked to put a hold on the card But someone didn't pass it on the bank failed to report the transaction to the sheriff's office A Wells Fargo spokesman said the bank didn't know it was expected to so there's the there's the uh

14:37Droppen communication. Yeah But I I find this to be strange because I feel like this is c-y-a on the part Of the the police department. Yeah, you say oh well the bank didn't call us right Where you not monitoring? Yeah the transactions in in some way Also, I thought it was strange that they wanted a hold put on the card Yeah, why would you want that when you want them to be able to use it? Yeah, anyway, you can keep tracking it Maybe get closer and closer to whoever's using right because you put a hold on it and it doesn't work uh To me it's almost like you you would be endangering her life at this point Yeah, I mean who cares if there were a drawing money if it means that you now have a A possible location where where she's at yeah or something to work on right at least Detectives weren't notified until December 4 when they made a routine follow-up inquiry at the bank

15:40Cindy's card with drew $40 at the a mpm minimart at Auburn Boulevard and greenback lane and citrus highs This is about nine miles from where she was abducting And I thought 40 bucks doesn't seem like a lot You know if you're an abductor yeah trying to get money Now we don't know how much money they had in their account. That's true. I mean they were One of them seemed like rough times. Yeah, I think they were struggling somewhat financially, but But also maybe they didn't look people taking the money out Didn't want to flag any systems wanted to test it out. Is it still good? Let's take out 40 bucks. Let's see what we get Could be yeah, and then they would do it again My thought about that though is the more times you do it The more chance you're probably gonna get caught so why not get the max whatever the max allowable is That day, but like a print balance out and go okay

16:41Is what I can get and maybe 40 bucks was it I don't know But by the time detectives got to the store The videotape system had automatically erased the image of the person who used the car This is the problem of them not being notified By the bank or by the police not scanning that Basis Because if they would have I'm guessing they could have got to the store It may for it. Yeah, yeah before it was probably taped over Whoever used the bank card Also had the pen needed to complete the transaction, but is that hard to do? I mean if you kidnap somebody probably can unless they voluntary give it to you just straight up can they not Torch you a little bit to get that information? Oh, I think yeah, they could It's my cob to think about but yeah, I'm sure in situations it does happen But we're also assuming That an abductor yeah is using the card

17:43At this point detectives have no idea it could be Cindy it could be yeah who used the card Yeah, they don't know Authorities noted that Wells Fargo was contacted about the car 52 minutes before the transaction occurred on November 25th 1991 a spokesperson The spokesperson spokesperson spokesperson. Yeah said it was the bank's understanding that the sheriff's department had asked only to freeze the account and look up the days activity So yeah, I think they're battling back and forth on the blame game the yeah putting the blame on each other On December 14th 1991 Cindy's body was found by a quail hunter in a mountainous area three miles northeast of force tip Near the small community of Baker Ranch her body was found 50 yards from force till rope and she was found wearing only a bra

18:44brutal it is right and we haven't even talked about What happened to her yet? just and the way That the person disposed of her body. Yeah, first of all you're You've taken somebody's life and then post-mortem you have Desacrated I'll use that word for a lack of a better one them even more By leaving them out there with hardly anything on Now if you're a killer you don't care you don't because if you can kill You can do the other stuff too. Absolutely. Makes no difference to you On December 15th authorities announced that Cindy's cause of death was ligature strangulation No other marks were found on her body best skaters also said that she may have been dead for only three to five days okay

19:44and I think That kind of makes the Bank card snafu Even that much bigger of a deal. Yeah, because if they would have found out they could have maybe seen the video and would have known who Maybe gotten to her in time. Yeah, it did appear to them that Cindy was killed elsewhere And then dumped in the forest criminologist speculated she was alive for possibly up to two weeks wow after her kidnap and you got to think of And and kind of ask the question why why would that have been we know Or we believe right that her a doctor Went to the ATM Had her pen number took out 40 bucks seems like a low amount to me Maybe there was a plan to do more with money or maybe this person just found out that she didn't have yeah Much money. Maybe there was a sexual component right if you're investigators

20:47You got to think about that was she kept for two weeks because This person was It's actually assaulting her during that period of time You know, I think if you're a detective or if you're investigators You got to ponder all these types of questions. Why hold on to it Yeah, but I think that's a real concern You know why why what was the driving force there? Mm-hmm And I think he's kind of I think he kind of hit it on the head. I think it's I think it you know That sexual Why else would you keep her for two weeks? Why not just dispose of her right away? Yeah I don't know yeah Cindy's case quickly went cold and it remained cold for nearly 35 years law enforcement did test evidence over the years, but There were insufficient results due to a lack of advanced DNA technology And again, these are things that we touch on in our unsolved episodes a lot right there are times

21:49Many times when authorities have Some type of evidence. Maybe it's DNA related. Maybe it's not You have to always keep in mind that DNA and different types of technology is always advancing and I'm sure at some point this case was thought to Probably be insolvable like they did just probably wouldn't solve yeah, and if you're the killer you're thinking Life is good home home free, right? It's been 35 years. There's no way they're gonna catch me now But in early 2026 detective submitted a final piece of evidence to the neighboring contra costa sheriff's office for Insects lab According to a and e the DNA was collected from the site where Cindy's remains were found And they knew that it did not belong to her okay, and this new round of testing resulted in a positive

22:50identification Placer county sheriff's office spokesperson Elise soviar told a and e this piece of evidence existed for years But it was so small we didn't believe we would get a match But as DNA testing technology evolved we decided to test it and we got a direct hit. Yes, it's so This is so Can't even speak. This is why it's so important to hold on to all this DNA all this evidence Because someday maybe you know like she said we couldn't get it hit for all these for the these years But now technology improved so much that we could have something so small and get a good hit off of it Yeah, but for me it's not just holding on to it right? It's it's how do you collect it in the beginning? Yeah, that's true. How do you store it preserved? And it really does amaze me Sometimes that you can go back to cases where nobody even knew what DNA

23:51Was or what it was gonna become But they still followed procedures That allowed for DNA testing 30 40 years later They were smart enough to think about let's collect this stuff Hold on to preserve it the best way we can so maybe it can be used down the road. Yeah, it's amazing It really is so the DNA Turned out to belong to 64-year-old James Lawhead Junior who was 30 at the time of Cindy's murder Lawhead was released from prison in early 1991 After serving a a president sentence for sexual crimes involving a child back in 1980 he broke into a home Beat a 71-year-old grandmother nearly to death and then raped her 11-year-old granddaughter He was sentenced to 19 years for the crime But he only served 11 he was released 10 months before Cindy was murdered

24:52Wow What a piece of shit Well, and how mad does that make you it frustrates me because One, I mean who gets out so early one. I don't think 19 years is enough Right the original sentence pisses me off. Yeah, but then 19 Gets whittled down to 11. Yeah, you beat a 71-year-old woman to death and then you raped an 11-year-old There is no way that you should be out walking the streets in 11 years. No That is ridiculous. Yeah And it showed I mean he went right back to things that he does right he didn't he wasn't Reformed why why is that though because he didn't spend enough time well Maybe I mean personally That could have been a life in prison could have been with no parole situation as far as I'm concerned If you're able to do that and then The thing I often think about is

25:55Okay, these people they spend you know number of years in jail or prison. What do they do? Are they trying to better themselves? Are they trying to turn their life around or are they just sitting there thinking about What they're going to do when they get out as far as the crimes that they want to commit? Yeah, and I think a lot of them lean towards the The ladder I agree with you. I mean think about it Was 30 when he committed this crime? Did 11 years so he was was at 19 18 when he committed the first time and maybe they took that into account But he was still obviously an adult an adult. Yeah, and that's such a heinous crime That I I'm shocked that he got out in 11 years He also had run-ins with the law after the murder in 2002 He was arrested for failing to register as a sex offender in Placer County

26:59He disappeared from California in 2005 after a warrant was issued for an outstanding weapons charge Clearly he's not a good guy. No, absolutely not You know if you're again Even at 18 or 19 if you're able to commit that type of Crime or those two crimes, right which are about as bad as it gets sure I'm okay with you never Being free in society. I really am yeah, and as proven he should have not ever came out. No, no, he shouldn't have but I just it really does Tick me off You know when we we do these kind of cases and find out that Now You make argue that 11 years is not a slap on the wrist But also look at the severity right of his crime. Yeah It shouldn't be even close to a slap on the wrist and I think in context

28:03That was a slap on the wrist for what he did Yeah, I agree 11 years. Yes Authorities believe he fled the Arizona and lived under and assumed identity as Vincent Reynolds Okay, interesting name visit It seems kind of benign to me. That's just old Vincent, you know, Vincent He's not easy. You don't have to worry about him. I only knew Vincent Growing up one only one the guy that did uh scary movies Vincent Price. Yeah, that's the Vincent. I knew I'm sure there were more. I'm sure there was I think there are quite a few names name quite a few people named Vincent In California some law enforcement agencies including Placer County are prohibited from using facial recognition technology To cross check photos of suspects with the other images Investigators had to seek assistance from police departments in Arizona

29:04I wonder where that is. I don't know. It seems strange. Oh, some type of privacy thing I guess and I guess but but at least you can go across the border and say hey We need your help. Can you do it? Okay. Well, we'll just use your information. Yeah An analyst with the Scottsdale Police Department got a match on James Lawhead After finding his photo in the state's department of transportation database As suspected he was using the alias Vincent Rennel So obviously Vincent Reynolds worked for a very long time. Yeah, I did According to CNN The Arizona Department of Transportation's facial recognition system is usually used to flag fake drivers licenses state got state IDs and suspected identity theft clearly A system that was not around when you were forging drivers license and the university you went to for Help people get into bars and by alcohol allegedly allegedly. Yeah, sorry. Yeah

30:08No, it was not but I'm still back to okay That seems like a good tool to have and to use Why would it be prohibited in some places? I I'm with you. It's got to have something to do with Some Either real or perceived invasion of privacy. Right. That's the only thing I can think of An ADOT spokesperson told AZ family that potentially fraudulent photos undergo three levels of review By detectives trained in facial recognition the Scottsdale PD analyst used data from the police departments license plate reader surveillance system to get a photo of One of law heads registered vehicles. He was living in Bullhead city Which is over 200 miles north of Scottsdale So pretty interesting right how they zeroed in on him First it's okay. We're identifying him using

31:10You know updated advanced DNA technology, but then they still have to find the guy right and then they they do that by kind of Using some of this facial recognition technology Lawhead was arrested at his home on April 24th 2026 Authority sees numerous items of evidence included loaded firearms throughout his house It's $15,000 in cash and a burner phone Because you always have to have a burner phone ready to go at any moment Well, you know a lot of people have firearms I don't make that much of it now. He's a convicted felon Yeah, which means he shouldn't have had firearms at all. That's what I'm thinking legally. He wasn't allowed to have them now Do people keep large amounts of cash at home? I'm sure some people do sure they do But you know what this screams out to me is $15,000 in cash and a burner phone that's like

32:11Grab it and go. Yeah, right. I got a They're on to me. I got to get out of Dodge and it's my backpack. What do you hold those people at backpack with everything and it ready to go People with backpacks ready to go. I don't know. Is there a special where a proper you a backpack? Oh like it like a A go bag a go bag some people call it a go bag. Yeah, like it's just go bag like it's got probably everything he needs to Go out in a few minutes like you have probably one. I know I have a bag Yeah, I can grab and disappear for a while But I can tell you what mine doesn't have in it is $15,000 in cash and a burner phone. I know I love to see I was like dammit no cash in here. I can't keep any cash around here because You're like this far away from a doll The sniffing dog a scent sniffer. I just want to see if you have any of those collectibles. Yeah You have a nose for the green

33:12And when I say that I mean money So lawhead was charged with murder with the special circumstances of kidnapping and rape now Said that his neighbors in bohhead city were shocked by the arrest Neighbor Alonzo avalus told a Z family It's kind of concerning because you never really know who people are. It's kind of scary Honestly, it really is right. I mean you just don't know Who's living next door to you? You know, I mean this and this is why I choose not to know. I don't I choose not to get to know my neighbors. Yeah, because You know if it comes out that one of them's a serial killer. I'd be like yeah, I don't know. I never really didn't know the guy Exactly. I don't have anything It doesn't surprise me at all because I never got to know yeah But you hear that a lot Right because if you Had an inkling that the person next door was a serial killer Maybe you make a call or something at some point in time. So how could you not be

34:12shocked? Yeah to find out that a killer is living next door to you Because what what does that say about you that you should have known or You don't have a good sense of who people are now this guy's exactly right you don't really know You don't who's living next to you. I remember telling my neighbors when I moved in or where I'm at you know This what you do. I'm like This true crime podcasts are like hey, we got to go we're see yeah, I was like Okay Yeah, the problem is that's not even the By a long shot the scariest thing that you do oh you you throw that out there to You know move suspicion off of all the other Weird stuff you're into that's right. I can't help put up a amount there at where time is the night digging holes So the next day Authorities also arrested lawhead 71 year old sister Terry lawhead steel and charged her as an accessory

35:12Terry was arrested in South Carolina. Okay Terry had spoken with law enforcement several times over the years and spoke with detectives just weeks before her arrest She claimed that she hadn't heard from her brother in over 20 years But it turned out she owned the property in bullhead city where he was living. She said full lies Well, what are you gonna do? How do you not know that he's living on your property? No, she knew She definitely knew she lied to law enforcement You know, I get it. She was trying to help out her brother. The question is Did she really know that he was a killer She had to have known that he was on the run, right? But maybe not sure why yeah And and technically he he was on the run But not really right law enforcement didn't know who he was no forever So in that respect he really wasn't on the run But he did something bad enough that he had to change his name. Oh, absolutely

36:16He in his mind he was on the run Yeah, and she knew that he changed his name so obviously there was some type of crime committed But what was it yeah, now he could have possibly made The explanation something like well, I got out of prison. I wanted to change my name Somebody might buy that yeah, you know you did something Really horrible yeah, that's true. So you might want a fresh start. You might want to change your name Investigators searched Terry's home in San Clemente, California and found evidence that she owned the Arizona home And had remained in contact with her brother over the years So she was very very much aware Yeah, he was and that's why she was charged, you know as an accessory I think if she'd just been honest with you know the police she wouldn't have been charged I think you're right. I mean if she would have said oh, I know I knew where he's at or where he's been doing Unless there's some evidence. She somehow knew about this murder which I don't I don't know that there was right

37:22Lawhead was Extra-dited to California and late April on April 27 2026 the Placer County Sheriff's Office announced the arrest and a press conference Sheriff Wayne Wu said Arguably this is one of the most heinous notorious co-cases we have here in Placer County Sheriff Wu talked about how they initially found no trace of lawhead saying It appeared that he just disappeared since 2005 Well, and that's because he changed his name. Yeah, moved away moved away Wu said we've actually been looking for him for quite some time We explored all possibilities what could have happened whether he was still living under a fake identity Whether he had left the country or whether he was even deceased and those were I'm sure Before they found out all possibilities That had to be explored

38:22We called the Scottsdale analyst and unsung hero in this case Truly was oh, yeah, absolutely and you know Detectives investigators they get a lot of the glory right And a lot of cases But you have tons of analysts kind of working behind the scenes. They're not talking usually at a press conference But they're doing some amazing work they really are and obviously whoever this was Really broke the case wide open. I think like you know analyst in this situation nurses You know don't always get the credit they should you know, it's the doctor teacher It's you know the co-host of a podcast versus the main host Sometimes the co-host doesn't get you know the recognition that he should sometimes you get more than what he really deserves I don't know depends on how you look at it For his the amount of contributions he actually makes

39:23Now you open this door and I'm gonna walk right through that was supposed to be a one-way door Spitting door Revolving door yeah that came right back around So detectives were attempting to retrace law heads movements over the past 20 years Including in states like Washington, Oregon and Arizona They were investigating whether he was connected to any other crimes I feel like somebody like that just doesn't become a good person. You know, I mean yeah He so let's not forget right he murdered bludgeoned to death a 71 year old woman raped and 11 year old Yeah, and then within 10 months of getting out of prison. He kills again. Yeah, so I'm right with you So you're telling me that after that murder He was mr. Rogers There's no way there's no way. I'm not buying it No, he is not a good guy and a good guy like so like I like that is not gonna just hold a sudden wake up and be like

40:27I don't know what I did back in my back back in my days, but I'm a good person now Yeah, and it's not like they found him in a year or two right 35 years when bought So from the time that he was 30 to the time that he was 65 now I get it You know most serial killers at a certain point if they're not caught they do slow down or stop probably Maybe some due to age. I don't think they stop on their own just because they don't want to do it anymore They might not be able to physically pull it off the way they they Coal when they were younger, but from 30 to 50 year telling me he didn't do anything I don't buy that alone not this guy like you say you know he almost killed the 71 year old and he killed this You know mom of a What a 11 month old and I came her old the other child was four four. Yeah, I mean he has no heart Yeah, you're right. I think I might have said a couple of times that he killed the 71 year old grandmother He didn't he beat her

41:28Nearly to death, but still horrible right, right? It's just there's no doubt about it. This was a a terrible individual So further investigation later review lawheads registered residents in 1991 was just 1.4 miles from where Cindy's ATM card was fraudulently used after she disappeared So just a little bit more than a mile down the road. I mean, that's pretty convenient The Placer County Sheriff's Office said we encourage law enforcement agencies Specifically those across the west coast to look at any cold cases that may have similarities to this case And reach out to our team at 530 889 78835 and that happens quite a bit right once somebody is found out caught I think a lot of agencies in the surrounding area and the region they start to look at some of their cold cases and see

42:30Whether or not they fit this person's MO their pattern. I just don't think a guy like this would just Go dormant. Nope. I'm right with you In those 35 years I guarantee He left a trail of more carnage. Yeah on June 16th 2026 the Placer County DA's office announced that James lawhead pleaded guilty to murder and acknowledged Special circumstance allegations that the killing occurred during the commission of kidnapping and right His sister Terry pleaded no contest to accessory. Okay, and that and depending on that can be a very serious charge Could be can be on July 14th 2026 James lawhead waved his appellate rights And accepted a sentence of life without parole his sister was sentenced to time served with two years of probation

43:30So she got off late she got off lie, but I mean what did she really do? Well, that's true. She lied Yeah, but she shouldn't have done but I don't know That she knew that he had killed someone. I don't know that. I hope not I hope if she would have known that she would have did the right thing. Yeah, but you never know Yeah, no siblings and yeah, I think if they had any proof of it then she probably would have gotten more time right so Whether she knew or not it's hard to say what I can't say is they probably didn't have proof sure that she knew about that They had proof that she lied to them But you know what gets me Gibbs is Okay, he accepted this you know sense of life without parole I can make the argument he should have got that before Yeah, I get it wasn't a murder But when you beat someone nearly half the death and you know you're raping 11-year-old child I can make the argument for it. I think you can Now I don't know what the sentencing guidelines were in the 80s. They probably were different and they didn't allow for that

44:37But you know if he was in there longer than maybe Cindy would have never been Oh, absolutely you can you can make that argument. Yeah, now he might have killed somebody the minute he did get out if he got out sure But it probably wouldn't have been Cindy Sheriff Wu said after the sentencing and my 36-year career I don't know that I've ever seen a homicide case of this nature from a rest of conviction so quickly Once the breakthrough occurred well nothing can erase the pain this family has endured for the past 25 years I hope today's outcome provides them with answers and allows them to begin moving And I think the reason why it moved so quickly was because You know he dropped all his rights to appeal and You know Accepted that life sentence. I mean at least he did that. I mean, I don't want to give the guy much credit Yeah, at all, but at least he or his attorneys advised him to do this because at the end of the day

45:40I'm assuming it was the way to get any Death penalty off the table. Yeah, I didn't say that in the research, but I'm sure yeah that they might have floated that out there Yeah As is kind of a carrot right to get him to plead guilty So as we wrap this one up Gibbs Cindy Wanner's murder was solved through a combination of advanced DNA testing and facial recognition technology all that Always fascinating to me right the technology aspect of crime fighting yeah, the forensics part. I've said it before If I was 18 years old trying to figure out what I was gonna do I think nowadays I would probably go Down that road. Yeah, I think he would Not something I thought about when I was 18 years old, but It's all about computers back then you were thinking about other things. Oh, I was thinking but yeah, I didn't even do the computer stuff. I tried to do

46:41There was uh, there was girls. There was beer. There was partying. There was too much going on But there was a lot in the research about this facial recognition kind of being a developing feel which everything is always developed sure It is we know it is It has benefits for law enforcement and can help solve cases when used correctly but apparently there are flaws in this Or these developing systems as well Image quality camera angles and lighting can affect whether the the system works the way it's supposed to work There can be false matches Missed identifications and maybe that's why there are some areas and jurisdictions that don't allow it to be used Oh, I get that because I know when I use my facial Fracial recognition on my iPhone A times and like in the morning I'll hold it up and it'll be like Who is this old dude? Who who who the hell are you? I'm like hey, it's the same guy. It was using this last night

47:46What do we mean? I just haven't put my face on yet I Haven't I'm it using my foundation my blush all my tools for the blood to get where it needs to be. I don't know Oh, yeah, but you know, maybe that's that's part of it because you know a false match a missed identification Yeah, but we all know what that could do to somebody's life. It could be catastrophic Yeah, and there are privacy concerns as well which we hinted at earlier Lawmakers are currently trying to regulate this new technology, but the rules very state-by-state I do think it's it's a technology that will continue to be used to help solve murders You know in the coming years, but it does sound like it has its detractors Which let's face it DNA does as well. Oh, I agree. Yeah, you know in the 10 years we've been doing this podcast just think about You know the fighting over DNA and

48:50public databases and You know law enforcement using those and and all that stuff that's happened But I do think about the last 10 years How far we've come. Oh, yeah, it's amazing. It really is Yeah, absolutely and like we always talk about If you're a killer and you've gotten away with something I Think now in 2026 you got to be nervous. I think it would be pretty hard not to be yeah You know, especially if you knew they had any type of DNA you'd have to be really really nervous But that's it for our episode on Cindy winner and another episode of true crime all the time So for Mike and Gabby, we'll talk to you next week. Yeah, we'll see you next week as always keep your own time ticking Because that's important. It's always important later y'all