Charlie Debate Throwback: Charlie on the Bible

0:00My name is Charlie Kirk. I run the largest pro-American student organization in the country fighting for the future of our republic. My call is to fight evil and to proclaim truth. If the most important thing for you is just feeling good, you're going to end up miserable. But if the most important thing is doing good, you will end up purposeful. College is a scam, everybody. You've got to stop sending your kids to college. You should get married as young as possible and have as many kids as possible. Go start a turning point to a state college chapter. Go start a turning point to a state high school chapter. Go find out how your church can get involved. Sign up and become an activist. I gave my life to the Lord in fifth grade. Most important decision I ever made in my life. And I encourage you to do the same. Here I am. Lord, use me. Buckle up, everybody. Here we go. The Charlie Kirk show is proudly sponsored by Preserve Gold, the leading gold and silver experts,

1:02and the only precious metals company I recommend to my family, friends, and viewers. So my sense today is on immigration. I think the immigration contributes a lot to America. So my parents did come here legally. And they right now are in the process again. And it takes a long time. No, they came here legally. Like they came with their visa. And now they're renewing it. And then it's a different process right now. But so I'm really religious. I'm Catholic. My parents grew me up that way. And in Matthew 2, 13 through 15, it talks about how Jesus had a flea Nazareth or no Bethlehem, sorry. He had a flea because someone was going to die. And they were looking to kill him. And he had to flee his own country and leave everything behind because the angels spoke to Mary and Joseph that they should leave. So a lot of people do that. That's why they immigrate to the United States. A lot of people have to leave everything behind because not everyone just wants to pack up all the things and leave. Right now I personally would hate if I had to sell my car, my house, leave my parents, leave my friends, and leave everyone.

2:03So I just want to know what your stance is on that just because in the Bible it talks about that. Right. So first of all, Jesus actually didn't immigrate. He stayed within the confines of the Roman Empire because Egypt was actually other under Roman jurisdiction. That's a separate point. But there are plenty of verses that says you should welcome the stranger. And so I will grant you that. I guess the first point, the first point I would have to ask is, should immigration always benefit the home country? I think so, yes. And that is one thing that I looked into. So there are immigrants right now working here, correct? And they get some other paycheck cut off, right? Because of social security and all those benefits. But they don't get those benefits because they're illegal immigrants. So do you mean legal or illegal immigrants? That distinction is very important. They don't get those benefits. So let's just be clear. If they have a social security number, how do they get that? The right way. They stole it. You don't get a social security number as an illegal period. It does not happen. They stole it. So that's an act of theft. And so they stole an American social security number to be able to work here, which drives down wages, which drives down opportunity costs.

3:09But even beyond that, we just have to look at their action. They were not invited to come to this country. They broke in line. They cut in line. And we should not reward line cutters or border jumpers. We should reward people like your parents that actually came here legally to this country. Yeah, I understand that point. I really do. But sometimes people would generally need to leave their country because in like my mother's case for instance, there was like a terrorist attack on my family. And that's the reason my mom had to come. And thankfully she did get it immediately. But now I've heard of so many stories where people have to wait like 10 years, 20 years, even 30 years. And grandma right now is trying to get the process. And thankfully she is now. But it's taken her about 10 years now and she makes enough money in her country. And she just wants to come here as a tourist. That's the main reason. And I do understand that I think that my main point is that how we should implement more money into the immigration system. Because Trump's zero tolerance policy. That just felt cruel because there's a lot of people here that are doing well and zero tolerance. They just have to leave the country.

4:13I feel like that was infumane of him. Yeah, but it's not their country though. And that's the. So let me just. If I went to Mexico without being invited or allowed and I took a job and the Mexican government found out what would the Mexican government do to me? I'm not sure. They would send me back to America. And why was a reason you left the US first. So reason. That's an interesting thing. Is there ever a legitimate reason in your opinion to commit a crime? No. Well, then the reason doesn't matter because under that state. So let's say can you rob a bank because you wish you had more money? No, you work harder. Then why doesn't that moral standard applied immigration? Because the system is isn't doing its job. That's why I think we should implement more money because there is some people like I do get it. You know, some people come here and then I do admit some of them commit crime, but not all of them. No, no, but they're all criminals if they came illegally. That's the distinction. By definition, they're breaking federal law eight US 1312. Just their presence here is against the law.

5:17Would you be okay welcoming in 500 million people into America? That's why we should implement the system to understand each case. No, no, you got to answer. Do you think 500 million people would be too many people? 500 million. I don't even think that would fit the United States. And that's the point is that if everyone all of a sudden declared that their life was in danger, we'd have to let in like all of Nicaragua, all of Honduras, almost all of Venezuela, the standard all of a sudden starts falling apart. And we find that people lie about this, they deceive it. Here's my perspective. Why don't we try to empower those people to make the countries they're coming from greater and stronger? Else this problem will actually never be fixed at the root of it. It does make sense. And I wish it was that easy. So for instance, I am part Peruvian and in Peru. So they were having a presidential election. And the president who was going to win was better for the country and would help out a lot more. But since it's corrupt, they made the other president win. They sent him death threats nearly almost killed him. He had to fake his death and leave and they jailed her.

6:19They jailed her completely and they let the guy win. That is why it's corrupt. It's hard to fix a country when there's no help towards it. So Peru was, they were rooting for the good president. They were rooting to build their system back up. But the other president, it was rigged. It was completely rigged. So does it make it better or worse if millions of people leave that country? For Peru? Can you, like, what do you mean by this? If 3 million people left Peru, does Peru get greater or weaker? Stronger or weaker? Neither. I mean, it's in a week state right now. I mean, it's pretty obvious. I'm trying to even say that mass immigration is bad for everybody. It's bad for America and it's bad for the country that people are leaving from. The only difference is that they send back American money through remittances that actually subsidize this entire thing. Let me ask one final question. If somebody comes into America without invitation and they are illegal, what do you think the penalty should be? I think it's humane to look at their case and why they had to leave everything they've ever known.

7:21We believe that we should send them back to their country of origin. I just want to make one more final point. So I do understand that, but my final point is that do you agree that we should implement more money to the immigration system? No. I think we should have no immigrants in the country for the next 10 years. We have way too many people in this country. And I'll prove it to you here in California. Your hospitals are overrun. Your schools are overrun. Do you guys agree that you have a crowded state right now? We are a California is a cluttered state with social services that are being strained. And we need a pause on all immigration, in my opinion, to metaphorically digest the major meal that we just ate. Or else we are going to have a major, major assimilation problem, cultural problem, cohesion problem, all sorts of issues. And I know this is a provocative thing to say, but immigration is something that you use as a way to benefit the homeland.

8:22You don't have to have immigration. But just as an example, my parents came here, like I said, legally zero dollars and they have benefited so much of the country. They have made so much like hundred and thousands dollars. Praise God. That's the American dream. It is. And it's just like a hard thing to do. And I want American boring young people from UC Riverside to also have that American dream and not have to compete against foreigners for that. Thank you for your time. Can I say one point? We have a long line. Thank you. Okay. Again, what is it? Sorry. Okay. I understand. The American dream is hard. My parents, my mom was pregnant working two jobs one day and she sacrificed everything. And now she has more money than the average American. Praise God. That is the American dream. Thank you very much. It's hard work. Thank you. Thank you. Imagine being a young woman just finding out that you're pregnant, not knowing where to go or what to do, not even knowing exactly what is going on in your body. While the whole world tells her it's just a clump of cells, you and I, we both know the truth. We know it is a baby. And once she has an ultrasound that you provide and she sees the truth of the baby growing inside of her, you help her choose life.

9:31When you join us in providing ultrasounds with pre-born and she sees her baby. And here's her baby's heartbeat. You will double the likelihood that she will choose life. And 100% of what you give goes to providing ultrasounds. 100% pre-born separately fund raises for administrative costs. $280 can save 10 babies. $28 a month can save a baby a month all year long. In a $15,000 gift, I know there's some of you out there that can afford this. $15,000 gift will provide a complete ultrasound machine that will save thousands of babies for years and years to come. Call 833-850-2229 or click on the pre-born banner at CharlieCurk.com today. Again, that's 833-850-2229 or click on the pre-born banner at CharlieCurk.com. I want to talk about the debate of abortion. So I know that it's something very controversial. Some people are pro-choice, some people are pro-life.

10:32Before I start, I want to make sure that I understand your opinion fully so I don't take what I've heard online. What is your stance on abortion? Life begins at conception. Okay, so where do you, so conception? So is that when sperm enters the egg? Is that during? When new DNA is formed. So the egg by itself you don't think is anything. Sorry? The egg of a woman by itself, do you think it's anything? It's something, but it's not a life, correct? Okay, that's okay. So my question is when you talk about abortion and why you support it, why you don't support it, sorry. Why you don't support it? What do you use as your evidence? Do you use scientific evidence? Do you talk about the Bible? Do you use both? Mainly scientific and self-evident reason. Okay, so are you someone who's a follower of the Bible? I am, but that's not relevant to this discussion, but we could talk about it if you'd like. I find it relevant because when I'm going to talk about abortion, there's quotes in the Bible that I think support pro-choice in my opinion.

11:37Bible Exodus. Exodus 21, 22 through 25, when men strive together and hit a pregnant woman so that her child come out, so miscarriage, but there is no harm to the woman, the one who hit her shall surely be fine. As the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as a judgeance to determine. But if there is harm to the woman, you shall pay life for life, foot for foot, burned for burn, wound for wound, striped for stripe. So I know that that can be interpreted different ways, the Bible is interpreted in many ways different. There's different types, different interpretations, but this says if a person causes a miscarriage through a woman, that they will pay for the abortion, so they will pay another one will punish them. That is not what this law says, but let me just ask, are you a Christian? Yes. Okay, then continue. So do you believe in the inerrant word of God? Yes. Okay, good.

12:37Yes. So it says that as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as a judgeance to determine. So the judgeance to determine, and it's talking about the husband, so therefore it's talking about a person not God himself, not his judgment. So it's saying if someone has an abortion, we have the right to choose what to do to them, right? Can you say it was a miscarriage not an abortion? It says when man strived together and hit a pregnant woman, so that's causing her to lose the baby. That's outside cause, outside cause, therefore it could mean abortion, because some people find that aggressive abortion is through violence, such as hitting, because not everyone has access to medical. Was it the intent for them to kill the baby? It's unclareified, so that I cannot tell you. However, what I will say is that it says that it's the judgeance to determine the husband determines. So God's not making the choice for us what to do with the person who does that to someone's child, does that to their own child.

13:38But it does say that if the woman is harmed, her herself, not the child, then they are liable by God, their life for her life, their foot for her foot. So what I'm saying is if somebody needs an abortion for health care, let's say a woman's baby is not going to make it, and if the baby stays in her womb, she will die. And they refuse her an abortion, they refuse her that health care and she dies. Should the doctor be liable under God? First of all, those instances don't happen, so let's just be clear. No, see, you guys are so propagandized by this, that only happens in a very rare case of the breaking of the uterine ball. So it does happen. But no, but where the baby is already dead, and that's what the point is that the baby is already dead, that's a removal of a carcass of the baby. That's also still medically abortion, it is. No, it's not. No, it's not. A removal of a carcass of a baby is not an abortion, those are two technically different things. It is not a DNA, it is not. A DNA is something completely different. But then if you want to talk about scripture, do you think we are bound to all 613 Levitical laws?

14:43Yes, if you're a follower of the Bible, you cannot pick and choose what you follow. So you eat kosher? You cannot pick kosher. No. Well, I thought you were bound to all 613 laws. I'm not perfect. I'm a sinner. Everyone hears a sinner. But if you choose... Well, are we bound to it? Do you think Christian should eat kosher? Do you choose to follow the Bible? You cannot pick and choose what you follow. Of course, but we do believe in a new covenant, an old covenant. So there's three types of Old Testament laws, right? There's ceremonial, there's civil and moral. So ceremonial laws, we do not honor. Civil, we consider moral, we absolutely do. But why do humans decide what to follow? Well, because Christ actually... It's not us, it's not humans. So Paul actually authored in the book of Colossians. That's a human. Right, inspired by the Holy Spirit, which wrote the Bible. The ordinances of Moses are nailed to the cross. Secondly, Christ our Lord repeated nine out of ten of the ten of the ten commandments. And he said, all the laws of the prophet hang upon the two teachings of Leviticus 19 and Deuteronomy 6. But now I equally have to challenge you with scripture.

15:45In Luke 1, when Elizabeth came in contact with Mary and both were babies, what did it say that John the Baptist did? I cannot tell you that. He leapt. Okay. Do non-baby's leap? I don't understand the question. I'm going to be honest. If it isn't it a baby then worthy of protection, if they're leaping? I suppose. Yes. And it was the Greek word brefos, which literally means baby, intentionally used throughout. Hold on. In Jeremiah it says, I knew you before you were in the womb. In Psalm I think 139, it's one of the most intricate verses about the detail of our formation process as human beings. And finally, because of science, because of biology, we know that human life begins at that spark of new DNA. And God says do not murder and it's incumbent on Christians to therefore protect that life. Okay. So my biggest question is, I'm not saying that all abortion is valid.

16:47I feel like that's up for everyone to decide. But in the most, even if it's very small percentage, in the very small percentage, that a baby is alive, but it has to be aborted for the sake of the mother. What do you think is the right thing? C-section. What is a C-section? A C-section is when you cut a mother's shoulder. Why don't they do that instead of the abortion? Because it could be equally as dangerous. Wrong. It's much safer than an abortion and quicker. Do you have evidence? I mean, yes, it's self-evident. Can you tell me? I mean, again, there's plenty of people. You have plenty of evidence. He has plenty of people that are in medicine can tell you, but like, to be very clear, think about it. Every hospital is equipped to do C-sections. You have to go to a specific place for an abortion. And a C-section, one third out of everyone in this audience was born by C-section. C-section save lives. They do not terminate lives. And so when they say, we must abort the baby. Thanks to modern technology, that's actually a false choice. You could take the baby out of the environment and try to save its life as a cesarean section. What if when the C-section happens the baby is not able to survive on its own no matter what?

17:50Okay, well then that's a separate circumstance. It's like saying if the baby has a heart attack after the C-section, that's not a reason not to terminate it. What do you mean? If you have to give everybody a chance at life. You don't kill the baby in the womb just because you think that it's going to well, it could hurt the mother. You take it out of that environment. Okay, but what I'm saying is if they take the baby out and they know it's not going to survive regardless. How did I know that post 22 weeks? You don't know that. There's miracles that happen every day in the neonatal, in the neonatal intensive care unit. There's miracles that happen every day in NICU's. And I agree, there's definitely, they don't know 100% for sure, but there's definitely probability through science, through biology that they know, hey, this is more likely going to happen. We don't do morals on probability. I'm not saying it's morality. I'm saying probability of a baby is going to survive or not. Doesn't matter, you don't terminate a life based on a probability of survival. Oh, you do?

18:50Interesting. You guys murder people based on probability of survival? Interesting. So somebody on a ventilator should just be murdered. I mean, it's such incredible morality. Which keeps someone on a ventilator for the entirety of everything else then? It depends. There's two different things. There's no more and not yet. Once you reach the level of no more human interventions can improve this person's life or bring them back to a full life, that is a separate moral decision than not yet. When a human being is at not yet, which they are in the womb, you must do everything you can to make sure they get life. When a human being is at no more, it's a completely separate moral dimension and decision to make. No more and not yet are the ways to look at pro-life decisions. That makes sense? Yes, that makes sense. Well, thank you for debating with me. Thank you very much. We don't agree to disagree. Hi folks, Andrew Colvet here. I'd like to tell you about my friends over at YRIFI. You've probably been hearing me talk about YRIFI for some time now. We are all in with these guys. If you or someone you know is struggling with private student loan debt, take my advice and give them a call.

19:53Maybe you're behind on your payments. Maybe you're even in default. You don't have to live in this nightmare anymore. YRIFI will provide you a custom payment based on your ability to pay. They tailor each loan individually. They can save you thousands of dollars and you can get your life back. We go to campuses all over America and we see student after student who's drowning in private student loan debt. Many of them don't even know how much they owe. YRIFI can help. Just go to YRIFI.com. That's the letter Y, then RIFI.com. And remember, YRIFI doesn't care what your credit score is. Just go to YRIFI.com and tell them your friend Andrew sent you. I have a friend named Thomas Sheety. He is the founder of an organization called Atheist for Liberty. He is openly conservative. But he's mostly interested in atheist activism and normalizing atheism and all sex including the conservative movement. He seems to be under the impression that a lot of conservatives, including you, are more hesitant to work with atheist organizations.

20:57Is there any truth to that? Yes and no. I mean, if you're an atheist and you want to be part of the conservative movement, go ahead. But you must be an honest atheist and acknowledge that morality is definitionally subjective without a belief in God. You cannot be an atheist and believe in objective morality. It is an impossibility. And true atheists will acknowledge this. At some point, you have an ought claim. Well, things ought to be a certain way. We as Christians are we that believe in the divine. We have is claims that their murder is wrong. Whereas an atheist will say, well, murder ought to be wrong. Because you can't have an objective definition if there is not a divine eternal power over you. So look, if an atheist wants to fight alongside of us to end abortion or to try and end the mass occurring of our kids, that's called gender-affirming care. And if an atheist wants to march alongside of us to say no men and female sports, they're more than welcome to be able to do that. But atheists for liberty is an interesting phrase because I don't believe you can have liberty without God. Because liberty is not man's idea.

21:58It is God's idea. That's just my own personal belief. And it's also the belief of everything that built this nation. But yes, I know a lot of good atheists. The question though is, how do you know they're good? It's because you're appealing to a moral authority above just the secular material around. One that is transcendent, we would believe given by God. Well, I don't believe in objective morality. I do know there are plenty of atheists who are moral objectives. Are you an atheist or an Arab? Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, cool. So let me just, can I ask you a question? And I don't mean, I know this is your first time at the mic. So I'm just going to try to be tender in doing this. Okay. So you don't believe in objective morality, right? I personally don't. Okay. So the Holocaust objectively wrong. Objectively no, but it'd been better if it didn't happen because most people won't want that to happen. So that's where we, that's where we are on different planets. And that's okay. I'm not trying to make fun of you. I'm trying to be graceful in the way that we're going about this. Do you think Hitler was objectively evil? No, because it's objective.

22:58But I just hope all of you guys understand he's being an honest atheist to your credit. Because as an atheist, you're not allowed to say anything is objectively right or wrong. I come from a worldview that when you butcher six million people, that is objectively wrong, no matter what. And it's very important, it's a very important truth claim. Because when you do not have objective truth anchoring your society, then it becomes a power struggle. If you do not have truth, then power will reign. Whoever can get the most amount of power then ends up having the most amount of say over society. We believe what is objectively right, true, good, and beautiful should be transcended over society, your thoughts. So do you believe objective morality specifically comes from the Bible? Yes and no. It's in nature and the Bible explains nature. So objective morality can be discovered in many different cultures and societies pointing towards what we believe is the ultimate objective truth, Jesus Christ. C.S. Lewis explained this the best in his book Abolition of Man, which is that almost every religion talks about a certain way to live, a dow or a path that we should be on.

24:04And so more simply than just the Bible, we believe in what the founders believed, which is an ethical monotheism, that there is one God, he has a general way that he wants you to live. For example, murdering is bad, kidnapping is wrong, defense of the innocent, and we should do our best to try to live alongside of that path. Okay, well I think those are very interesting examples. You bring up the founders, you bring up Hitler, but Hitler was a self-proclaimed Catholic and he called Nazism a Christian movement. Yeah, I would be careful saying that. He was not, that's okay. He called himself a Catholic. He specifically said in 1927, our movement is Christian, they had on the belt buckles God on our side. Yeah, they swear to the Almighty God, atheists were not trusted to be in the SS. Even if I grant you that, despite the fact that he killed a lot of pastors and priests and there, of course you can pervert things in the name of God. No one denounces that. Just as a side note though, far more people died under the banner of atheism than Christianity in the 20th century.

25:05Mao was an atheist, Stalin was an atheist, Pol Pot was an atheist, believing in no God actually led to the destruction of the murder of well over 100 million people. And that's fine. So again, if atheists want to come alongside us as conservatives and fight for what is good, that is great. But I will never acknowledge that atheists can tell me what is objectively good. They can only give me a preference. They cannot tell me what is right. And preferences eventually will lead you towards moral and societal decline. Okay, so I think he just listed a bunch of communists and it's worth acknowledging the vast majority of atheists are not communists, just like the vast majority of Christians are not theocrats who don't support the divine right. It's also worth acknowledging that the founders were actually inspired by enlightenment values not by the Bible. America's founder is a secular nation, we were the first quote unquote, gollis constitution. Again, I've done this so many times, so I don't know if we want to waste our time doing this, but 55 out of 56 of the signers of the declaration were Bible believing church attending Christians, 9 out of 13 of the states of the time and ratification required a declaration of faith in order for you to serve in the states.

26:11We were our birth certificate, which is a Mayflower compacts that explicitly we are here to spread Christianity throughout the land. It was the first great revival that led to the American Revolution of Jonathan Edwards and Jonathan Mayhew and George Whitfield that preached all across the eastern seaboard. John Adams seamlessly said the constitution is written solely for a moral and religious people, it's wholly inadequate for the people of any other. We were a Christian nation that was able to embrace the idea of a free society. God has mentioned four times in the Declaration of Independence, not only that Jesus Christ has mentioned in the Declaration of Independence where it says we appeal to the divine judge of the universe, which of course is a direct appeal to Jesus in the book of Revelation. Yes, there were rationalist enlightenment values that informed some of the founders, but it irrefutably was a Christian nation. Maryland was Catholic, Pennsylvania was Quaker, almost every state had their own specific type of Christian preference. The idea of an atheist or not believing in any God was an idea that was so foreign to the founders, even Thomas Jefferson, the great deist. He revered the Bible, albeit with some significant edits. However, the idea of believing in no cosmological or no axiological or no teleological or no ontological being would be a concept that our founding fathers and not just find foreign, they would find it extraordinarily dangerous.

27:23Why? Because the French Revolution was happening simultaneously as the American Revolution, which was explicitly atheist. They actually recreated their own gods and they said, we are going to appeal to what? The God of Reason. And this is my final contention is that when I talk to atheists, the French Revolution is a great example. They literally tried to change the Gregorian calendar to a 10-day week. They went and imprisoned people of faith. They put priests and jail. All these different sorts of things. They said, we are going to appeal to the God of Reason. Well, how did that work out? It worked out with the guillotine and the slaughter of tens of thousands of people. The French Revolution was one of the greatest disasters in human recorded history. Contrast that with the American Revolution. Why did the American Revolution create the greatest nation ever to exist in the history of the world? And the French Revolution resulted in a lot of blood and even the killing of their own once-liter Maximilian Rob Spear. It's because we were anchored on Christian ideas. If you are not anchored on Christian ideas, then don't be surprised in all of a sudden. There is no fruit to the harvests that you're trying to create. Before he ever stepped behind a microphone, Charlie understood something important.

28:25The leadership begins with learning. He didn't chase a diploma or a title. He chased truth. Through Hillsdale, colleges, free online courses, he studied the great works of the classics, the principles of the American founding and the life-changing truths of the Bible. Those ideas didn't just inform him. They shaped his character, strengthened his convictions and prepared him for the challenges ahead of him. One of the courses he took was the Genesis story, taught by Hillsdale professor Dr. Justin Jackson. This free online course explores the relationship between God and man, what happens when that relationship is broken and the path toward reconciliation. It's a real college course, rigorous, thoughtful and accessible to anyone willing to learn. You can take the very same course completely free, grow stronger in your faith, gain clarity about humanity in your place in the world, prepare yourself for a life with courage and conviction. Visit Charlie4Hillsdale.com to enroll today. That's Charlie4Hillsdale.com. Learn deeply. Lead boldly. Carry it forward.

29:27I'm an atheist, so I disagree with your religious claims. Do you believe in absolute truth? I'm not sure you can provide me with positive evidence that there is absolute truth. So the answer would be, I'm not sure. Are you absolutely not sure? I'm not sure if I'm absolutely not sure. See, this works if you say no, but it doesn't work if you bottom out in that I don't know question. Right, no, but saying you're not sure is not even sure if you're not sure. So at some point you just always have to make a truth claim. No, you can just be not sure about everything all the way down. I don't see why you can't. And my answer would be, I think truth is instrumentalist in theory. I think it's a thing we choose pragmatically. For the purposes of discussion, I think you can say, yeah, I think truth exists pragmatically. Regardless of that, I don't see how you get to God. Are you live? Huh? Are you live? I think I'm alive. Yeah. Think your life. Yeah. Is the sun shining? I think it's shining. Yeah. From my frame of reference, it is shining. Notice, notice how none of this. I mean, so notice how you've gotten no steps closer to proving God.

30:28No, I'm asking questions, man. Yeah, but are you sure we did it? Yeah, I'm sure. Are you sure we did it in the past God? I'm sure in the pragmatic instrumentalist. How sure are you that we didn't? In the pragmatic instrumentalist sense, absolutely sure. I see truth as a utility. So there is a truth that's absolute. No, it's it's instrumentalist. Well, you just said it was absolute. No, absolutely sure in the instrumentalist sense of the word truth. This is a philosophical tradition that dates back hundreds of years instrumentalism. Yeah, which of course we don't subscribe to. Obviously. Yeah. So do you believe that murder is objectively wrong? A systemologically objective or ontologically objective? Morally. See, you didn't answer the question, but you both both epistemologically and ontologically. But for the purpose of discussion, but further, okay, so by what you mean? No, I don't think it's objective. Was Hitler a bad person objectively? No. If you mean by by the way, by the way, No, no, but he's being honest at its core atheists cannot say that Hitler was bad

31:29Can I make the claim now notice who here is relying on feelings and knocked facts your argument is I feel that Hitler was objective I know no no you feel that way can you provide me evidence of how you know? Can you provide me evidence that morality is objective? No, of course I can because Well, first of all morality is both reason and revelation and it's built within to us that murder is wrong Yeah, okay, where's your evidence of that? Wait, wait, I'm so sorry. That's a claim not evidence. That's a claim Okay, we could we could spend multiple hours, but in the Western tradition So notice how you're saying by tradition by by most standards But I just want all claims of non-truth value. Hold on. Yes, they are we believe that truth was revealed to us We believe claim by God. Hold on, but let me let me we can get there You can keep on interrupting us. Okay, but let me prove to you how silly your viewpoint is okay And how self-evidently wrong. Okay, is it objectively wrong to kids when you say objective what I mean by objective

32:29Once again once again You can I ask you something and no no no notice how you still haven't given me a Dispositive evidence and rally's objective you're merely saying my answer is I feel that way sure I feel that way It's objectively wrong to the laws of nature what law of nature what the self-evident nature of existence Where's your proof that itself that show me the logical proof that it's self-evident? Okay, it's in your reason that God gave you and the consciousness Prove that God gave it to me prove that God gave it to me. Okay, but again your existence is proof of that You're again, we can get back down to the first principle so this but we can but you don't want to because you know it doesn't look good No, it looks actually really good because Built with it built with in again interrupting does not make you right so keep repeating your point I don't know. I don't so let me ask you a question and closing since you can't objectively say that Hitler was bad or that child Is it is wrong? So

33:30How did the universe come into existence? I don't know okay, but science says that it was a big bang or a beginning point, right? Okay, so using logic which you believe in is the column cosmological or human again You keep interrupting using using logic if space time and matter okay Had a starting point okay, then logically shouldn't something outside of space time and matter have started those things How do you know that cause is personal? How do you know that causes worth praying to how do you know that's not the question? Okay, sure there is a cause. Oh that causes God because it's outside of space time and matter No, but you believe in different things about God. You think that God is personal. That's not that's not worth debating We're arguing about God. We're arguing about Religion hold on and we're not debating whether or not there's a God or not no the Christian God I said religion that you're a religious person in nature you follow religious tradition calm down You said you're an atheist. We know God God historically Aquinas even defines it this way is a personal God You still haven't gotten to me I'm happy to get to that okay then get to it look here's what I find with atheists

34:31They don't want to worship or acknowledge God because many atheists think they are God and You embody that really well. I didn't know you were a mind reader Charlie. This is news to me. It's not a mind reader I can tell by your behavior. I will say this I hope that you give your life to Jesus Christ. I I hope you do. I hope you can find evidence I hope you can find you know what's interesting. There is evidence. There is evidence that Jesus hold on last thing Do you believe Jesus Christ was a real historical figure? Yes Do you believe that the gospels are historically accurate and we can prove them with archeological evidence? Some parts are some parts are some parts are some parts are metaphors some parts are allegories some parts are literal It depends some parts are attempts at history Why why I watch book or gospel using rational analysis? Why would the disciples lie about the resurrection of Christ? Okay, we can talk about this people they can be mistaking mistakenly wrong about it So they would be mistakenly wrong up to the point where they get The whole point of being the whole point of being mistakenly wrong about something is you believe it's true All the way up into the point of death the whole point of being mistakenly wrong about something I just want to make sure I understand your position your position is that the 12 disciples who knew Christ best

35:35Saw him die and then they all believed a mistake in conspiracy for the rest of their life Yes, all of them together as a conspiracy Yes, yes, yes, there is no first-town account from the 500 Well, the gospels are all written by these people people have died for crazy claims in the past that we know aren't true These are all facts about history. That's not correct Okay, one of the gospels was written by one of his closest associates Matthew the next collector Luke was a fact fighter that was hired by you know I didn't say the gospels weren't written by them I said there's no evidence from the 500 that he appeared to there's no first-town account again That's not correct. Thank you for your time. We'll get to the next question. Okay. You can not We will pray for you. Thank you For more on many of these stories and news you can trust go to Charlie Kirk dot com