Tyler Robinson Preliminary Hearing: The Final Day Part 1

0:00My name is Charlie Kirk. I run the largest pro-American student organization in the country, fighting for the future of our republic. My call is to fight evil and to proclaim truth. If the most important thing for you is just feeling good, you're going to end up miserable. But if the most important thing is doing good, you'll end up purposeful. College is a scam, everybody. You've got to stop sending your kids to college. You should get married as young as possible and have as many kids as possible. Go start a turning point to a state college chapter. Go start a turning point to a state high school chapter. Go find out how your church can get involved. Sign up and become an activist. I gave my life to the Lord in fifth grade. Most important decision I ever made in my life. And I encourage you to do the same. Here I am. Lord, use me. Buckle up, everybody. Here we go. Noble Gold Investments is the official gold sponsor of the Charlie Kirk show, a company that specializes

1:02in gold IRAs and physical delivery of precious metals. Learn how you could protect your wealth with noble gold investments at noblegoldinvestments.com. That is noblegoldinvestments.com. Today is the final day of the Tyler Robinson preliminary hearing. I guess I should say we hope because every step of this process has been as elongated as it could possibly be. It feels we're approaching the one year mark of Charlie's death. Tyler Robinson, the defendant, the accused, formally has not actually been even charged yet. We've had a year of proceedings just to decide whether this case has enough evidence to proceed to trial. We had an entire week of preliminary hearing in July, where we had testimony presented and video presented and DNA evidence presented. It felt a lot like a trial, but it was actually only a preliminary hearing. And then at the end of it,

2:05Judge Graff overseeing the case said, we now need to wait two months. You'll get to make closing arguments then. And then I will rule what we've reached the day set for those closing arguments. We'll be going to that hearing as soon as it is visible to the media, open to the public for the time being. My understanding is the hearing either has started or is about to start. They'll be hashing out a defense motion related to what specific evidence is able to be viewed by the public. Hopefully that will only go about 45 minutes to an hour and then we'll be able to get inside the courtroom. But until then, we will be talking about, I'd say I think Danny, we should talk about what's happened in the last two months. So we remember if you haven't been following every maneuver of this case back in July, we had a week of preliminary hearings that was primarily the prosecution making its probable cause case. So we got a lot of evidence that we'd heard about, but had not seen yet was finally presented to the public. We saw surveillance footage from

3:06UVU which showed the suspect who we believe was Tyler Robinson walking around campus multiple times in different outfits. In one of them, the person appears to be limping in a strange way like they have something hidden under their clothes that is believed to be the rifle. We saw footage of them on the rooftop going into position and then fleeing the scene after the fatal shot. We saw a discussion of DNA evidence. We saw testimony. Most compellingly, we saw testimony from Lance Twig. So that all happened since then, we've been waiting on these final arguments. And one of the things that happened about three weeks ago was we got a filing from the defense that was in text form, their final briefing of the case they are making prior to the bind over hearing. And what we highlighted and his worth highlighting is both what they talk about and what they didn't talk about because this it was a 41 page filing. And in this 41 page filing, they never really debunked any of the core

4:14attacks or any of the core claims from the prosecution that Tyler Robinson engaged in the shooting. Instead, it was entirely focused on trying to undercut the case for the death penalty. As we've discussed, in Utah, actually in every state, to get the death penalty in a murder case, you need aggravating factors. You can't just have it as the default penalty for first degree murder. So they need aggravations such as many people were in danger, that children were in danger, that there was a political or like a hate based motive for the crime. And so they offered evidence for that. And the defense did try to push back on that. They tried to argue quite literally in this 41 page filing. They argued that the defendant was basically a good shot that he hit his intended target. And so therefore, he was not putting other people's lives recklessly in danger at UVU. That was part of their 41 page filing. But what that filing did do is it did admit that it was a

5:14rifle shot that killed Tyler at or killed Charlie at UVU. It was not an exploding microphone. They did not introduce any of these other theories. And they also argued, for example, there was one of the secondary charges against Tyler Robinson is that he was engaging in witness tampering, that he was telling Lance Twigs not to talk to police. And there as a result, the defense offers all this evidence that actually the defendant was just offering genuine good advice like that he was just looking out for his friends, his boyfriends well-being. So that happened in the meantime since then. There's 41 pages in this. And only a single page dealt with what we would say is conventional guilt or innocence. They argued for it being impermissible here say that they'd introduced all of the Lance Twigs footage without having Lance Twigs personally there. But the court had already ruled on that. That's the only argument they made in 41 pages, Danny, about actual guilt or

6:19innocence. Yeah. And we also learned that they have over a 1 million communications from discord and other messages that they recovered. That just happened. Yes. I'm glad you brought that up. We got a defense 12 page discovery status report just this week. Andrea Burkhart, who has been really chronicling this case, she uploaded that if you check Andrea Burkhart's sub-stack, you can read it yourself. Yeah, more than a million discord messages and more than 25,000 location records from CSLI. I believe that's his cell phone ping. So they basically have every cell phone ping ever made by Tyler Robinson's phone. So they can track every place he was going. Now what prosecutors claim and what I suspect evidence will show is that Tyler Robinson, who lived in southwest Utah in St. George, that he made this journey all the way up to Oram, Utah on that day that he was in the vicinity of the campus. I'm not sure how precisely they can pinpoint it, but they'll certainly

7:20be able to show I suspect that he was in that city when the shooting occurred and then that he journeys home and we had testimony at the trial from at the preliminary hearing of Lance Twigs confirming that he left mysteriously to go somewhere on the day that the shooting occurred. In fact, I think we have this this cute up. So let's remind people of some of the stuff that we saw. Let's play clip six. Let's jump to September 10. Did he spend spend the night in the apartment the night of September 9th into September 10th? Yeah, he did. Yes. Do you know when he left the apartment on September 10th? I don't know an exact time. I just know you left early. I heard him leaving and he just said he had like long drive to work that day so he was leaving early. Okay, so early. Um, any guesses to what, um, when that was? Uh, I don't know. I would have thought it was 5 a.m. Because that's

8:27when like an early work day was for him, but it was probably more like four. So now they've sent all the cell phone records that we'll we hope we believe will confirm that account of when he left his home, where he journeyed up. It's all about tons of different pieces coming together and I guess the upside of Utah's very cumbersome process compared to it seems other states. We've talked to prosecutors who've said in some other states we would have gotten an arrangement the following day. We would hopefully be in trial right now here. It's taken us a year to get through this entire process. We may not get a trial. Andrea has said if we get a trial, it might not be until 20, 28 possibly. So we might get another year of delays after this. And we know that that slow process, I think has driven a lot of the weirder theories about this. I know that it's, uh, I think Danny would you agree? There's like a lot of nervous energy that

9:30people want to see justice in the case. It's growing so slowly. It goes slower than we feel it should. And so people fill in that void with lots of wild speculation. Lots of theories on their own. And what's good about at least these briefs that have come out as it kind of quails and puts away a lot of these theories like with the cell phone data. Why the people that have made these theories didn't think that they would ever have cell phone data to prove them wrong is kind of absurd to begin with. So people have just been running wild with whatever they want with really with no critical thinking. Um, I said the other day we're in a critical thinking depression right now. It seems that everybody's just so on edge, especially with this case, but about really everything going on. That they're just deciding to make up whatever they want. We are hoping that after some testimony today, some final arguments, we will get a decision from Judge Graff on bind over. That is the legal term whether this will proceed to trial. But for more expertise on this, because I am not a lawyer and Danny is not a lawyer, we made different choices in our lives.

10:34We're joined by a legal expert who's helped us a lot throughout this case. That is Jay Towne. He's a former prosecutor from Alabama and he joins us now. Jay, are you there? I am here. You made better choices is what you meant to say. Right. He did make different choices. That's okay. Uh, well, if you say so, you're the one you're the one who took the plunge. So, uh, but Jay, thank you for joining us. Thanks for being flexible because we got a lot of last minute swirves in in this hearing schedule. Uh, but Jay, let's just sketch it out for our viewers. I was asking you what you expected to see today. So I know Judge Graff, he's allotted two hours each for the prosecution and the defense to make their closing arguments. This is not a trial. It feels like a trial in so many ways, but it's not what should we expect to see today from each side? Well, I don't believe that the prosecution should use more than 20 minutes. I mean, the evidence is overwhelming. It speaks for itself. If you have to really argue at this point

11:39that there is probable cause, right? So a better than a coin toss chance that Tyler Robinson killed Charlie Kirk, then you've lost already. You don't have any faith in your case. Uh, I mean, I can, I'm not involved in the case whatsoever. I've talked about it more on your program that I have anywhere. And I can tell you I can list 20 or 25 pieces of evidence that are very damning independently and then certainly when taken together against Tyler Robinson to include the multitude of confessions from Tyler Robinson that each shirt he admitted he killed Charlie Kirk. So I don't think there's any question for the judge. Um, and the prosecution should stand up and sit down. There is no reason to put on a show. Now the defense is going to do the exact opposite. They are going to, they're going to go into every nit noise. You know, somebody said they saw a dog one day and now they're saying they saw a puppy, right? I mean, and that's their job and that's fine. And that's the fifth amendment and sixth amendment right to counsel and have a provide a vigorous defense. I'm fine with all of that.

12:45But this should never have taken a year. The state of Utah made a mistake by not going to a grand jury and then didey. They allowed this circus to play out. They've allowed the jury pool for the actual trial that will take place to be infected with the 10 foil hat crowd that does exist and is out there and has millions of people putting eyeballs on it. Uh, and that was just, uh, I think a mistake by Utah prosecutors in this particular case. I'm not being critical of them. I mean, that's probably the way they do it in every homicide case. And they just didn't think any different, but as a career homicide prosecutor, I can tell you, I want to get to trial. I don't want to spend a year on a prelim and put the Kurt family through this for a year just to say, well, trial is next August, right? I mean, I think Erica would be devastated by that. She wants just like I do and so many others want justice for Charlie and justice delays, justice tonight. Let's get to it. Yeah, Jay. It's, it, it feels to me that if we were to take a polypsi prescription

13:50from this high profile case and a few other ones, it's, it actually should be a priority. We should maybe reform our system to encourage cases to go more briskly from arrest to indictment to trial to, to verdict that as you say, if, if the process is dragging out, you're introducing more room for weird theories to come in for stuff to go awry. And I guess, at this point, you might even say witnesses like important witnesses might might die or becoming capacitated. There's so many ways that a case can go wrong when it goes on and on and on like this. You've been a professional in this sphere. It feels to me like things have been just getting longer across the board in the court system. Is that the case from your experience? Does it take longer to complete a trial than it once did as a general matter across the states? I think so because delay is always the best tactic when you're guilty, right? Feel like you said, memories fade. People die. Maybe those people get scupped up with a charge. And so they're not

14:55at, you know, the veracity of their testimony isn't as heavy as it once was prior to a grand jury indictment or in this case, or probable cause hearing. And, and that's sort of the hope is that the, I mean, the state's evidence will not get better after the arrest, typically, not much better. But the defense's defense does get better oftentimes. And I've had capital murder cases where, you know, I wanted, I sought to put people on death row for capital punishment for murder. And, you know, those cases, one of them went five years before we got to a trial was absolute absurdity to the point where we actually changed the law here in the state of Alabama. So allowing this preliminary phase to go on for a year is absurd. And who knows when he's going to rule, he might take a sweet time and rule sometime around Thanksgiving. I mean, we don't know that he's going to rule today or, or anytime this week. It's just that the hearing and the preliminary phase will be over with. And then a trial will be scheduled. Well, there's a

15:58whole other batch of rights that Tyler Robinson has at that point, other experts that have to come in and aid with his defense. And, you know, we need six months for them to complete their report. And then the state needs six months for their expert to evaluate the report and create their own. And this thing goes on and on. So this judges that, in my view, a disservice to the Kirk family and to Charlie by letting this pre-Lim circus get way out of control for way too long. We've got a minute right here. Danny has a question he wants to ask. Jay, we see that the defense is really going to argue on capital punishment here and the death penalty. So how strong is the state's case for the great risk of death to another person theory? And if the judge does reject that theory, what changes about the death penalty in this case? Yeah, well, I mean, if the judge rejects it, then life without parole is the sentence, the max sentence that Tyler Robinson would face. You know, this isn't the most obvious

17:00death penalty case that I've ever seen. However, I do think that's a jury decision. And I do think that a great many other people were put in harm's way by the shot that ultimately killed Charlie. It's not whether or not it hurts somebody else. That's not the standards whether it could have. Certainly it could have. So I think a jury gets to decide whether or not other people were you know, in harm's way as the aggravator for death. And I don't think this judge has any business taking the death penalty off the table. It's a much higher standard to commit to jury of that than it is a probable cause. Let the state meet its burden with a jury. And if they don't, then he spends some term of years or the rest of his life in prison. And that's our justice system. But it's just just nonetheless. It's just being denied and delayed right now. Delayed is certainly the word for it. But we're hopeful. We'll take one major step towards justice being completed today. And Jay, thank you for your help throughout this. Maybe we'll get

18:00back to you later today. We'll see. Thank you for being available as always. And we appreciate you coming on. Yeah. I want to talk to you about an issue so many Americans face. And that's health insurance. There's an organization I really, really appreciate called Christian Healthcare Ministries. CHM is a faith-based alternative to health insurance. And this is real stuff, folks, like you've got to listen in with CHM, you're not paying into a company's profit margin. You're investing in a community with less overhead than the competition. You get reliable support through the giving and prayer of fellow members. Members contribute every month to help pay for each other's medical bills, allowing believers to afford the care they need. Because they're not insurance, you get access to your preferred doctor or hospital without network restrictions. You heard that right. If you want to see massive savings in your healthcare budget, CHM has four low cost programs for every stage of life, starting at just $115 a month. Plus, you can enroll

19:03or switch your program at any time. See why so many believers are taking a leap of faith. Start today by visiting CHministries.org slash Charlie and use promo code Charlie for a 50% credit towards your first month. That's CHministries.org slash Charlie and use promo code Charlie. We have a attorney point frontlines reporter is on the scene in Utah. I believe we have him right now. Taylor Hanson is Taylor there right now. I'm here, Blake. Thanks for having me. Hello, Taylor. Thank you for calling in. I guess describe the scene for us. What does it look like there? I look very similar to the prior preliminary hearings that we had covered. It's a fairly slow start to the day. You have Catherine Nester Robinson's defense attorney get here about 30 minutes before they actually opened anything up. Robinson arrives in the bear cat security truck right around that's a two and a half hours prior to the actual hearing. Andrew Colvet is of course here

20:08on scene with Charlie's parents. It's looking very similar to what we've already seen. You had I would say multiple people camp out overnight just like we had seen prior. They're a kind of more in the Candice camp, you know, her social media posters and things along those lines. But I'd say virtually the exact same scene we've seen time and time again. I've spoken to multiple people out here on the ground. They all or I'd say about 95% of them if I had to give a rough number do believe that we'll be seeing a decision get made and ultimately the case will go to trial. But the judge graph technically does not have to issue an official ruling as of today. All right, yeah. As we mentioned, there are a few of the weird theory supporters there. Several of them were posting about it last night. They apparently lined up 20 hours in advance, which shows commitment to the bid at least. Yeah. Did you interact at all or see those people? Are there

21:08other supporters of Tyler Robinson there? How numerous do you think that those people are overall? I want to say about half the people roughly that actually went into attending the public hearing today are in support of Robinson or believe that he didn't do it in some shape form or capacity. You had the usual two. You had Brandy and Billy sitting out front. They're kind of the more outspoken ones. I believe I saw diligent Denizen as well, which he's the number one propaganda poster on Twitter right now. So there is a decent amount of them out here, but you also have students from UVU in attendance. People involved the turning point chapters here supporting Erica and Charlie. Are there any besides the ones who went into the hearing itself? Are there any others there? Is there any seen people waving signs? People chanting stuff? People trolling everyone? Do we have any antifa types? I'm just trying to get a picture of the overall scene. Yeah. Now everybody that that is on kind of the other side of the aisle believing that Robinson did not do it or supporting

22:11Robinson. They're actually all inside the hearing at this moment in time. We don't have anybody just kind of lingering outside. No antifa types, no left wing types, holding signs of any sorts. Do you only have people lingering outside right now or media and some UVU students? And Taylor, do you know how many people from the public are in the hearing today? I want to say 10. All right. And how many people are outside overall? Not just the ones who mercifully not that many supporting Tyler, but I would say you probably have about three supporters of Charlie Kirk outside. And that's about it. Everybody else is in the media right now. Okay. All right. So not a dramatic not a gigantic scene. I think in July we had more of that. It was a multi-day event. I imagine the actual trial will have we'll have a bigger event. How do you talk to much to people around the Oram area? How it feels seeing this case? Play out and it becoming such a long-running discussion point due to how long the trial is and

23:11how much discussion it's inspired online? Yeah. So I actually I would fairly close this area. So I was talking to a decent amount of people that are local to the area. And they pretty much all just have said the same thing when I talked to them about it. It feels surreal that this trial is taking place in the state of Utah. That's kind of when I get the most out of when I when I have conversations with Utahns is they just can't believe that Charlie was killed in the first place, but the fact that he was killed in the state of Utah out of anywhere that he could be murdered. And that that's kind of mind-boggling to them every Utah resident that I've spoken to because it's Utah. Nobody really expected it. But on top of that, I mean most of them that they all believe that justice will be served so that's a benefit, but they don't want it in their community, but it's just kind of then thrust upon them if that makes sense. How about the the UVU students? We've had the chapter leader of that of that school on the show before, but if there's others who are from the school,

24:11they talked at all about the experience of being a Vegas being the turning point chapter that Charlie had his last event at. I know that's probably something that must loom over all of them to some extent. Oh yeah, it's huge for them. I mean not even just them, but every student at UVU. And you know you can talk to a left wing student on the campus or a right wing student on the campus. And for the most part, they're going to be in large agreement of this should have never happened. And this is a horrible thing and it's going to be a stain on our college campus for essentially the rest of American history. So they're for the most part everyone's kind of on the same page in regards to that, but you do have a lot of students that you know witnessed it at UVU that are now directly involved with turning point chapters, whether it's on UVU or a different campus. So it seems like overall it's led more people to turning point than away. That's good to hear. Has there been any discussion? We know there's the memorial is happening. It's going to be happening at that facility that's either on UVU or near it in a week. Have

25:15people talked about attending that? Having plans for it? Are they planning their own memorials? Do you know anything or can speak to that? Yeah, I spoke to one of the UVU reps today outside of the preliminary hearing. And at first they so they had floated this idea of you know hosting on the one year anniversary on the 10th the UVU memorial and at first UVU had been in agreement with it, been coordinating with the turning point chapters and they all decided to just stop responding to them and kind of ghosting them so there was plans made just in case it was canceled for basically an alternate venue, but it seems that they have things sorted with UVU and that they will be hosting that event on campus like expected. That's good. That's good. I think ultimately we just, we know it's tough for UVU. They're a school they don't want to be forever identified by what a person who wasn't even really a student there, heinously did, but we want to be able to honor

26:16Charlie. Charlie literally gave his life to speak to students, to engage with students, and let's be frank, this is probably the most infamous incident that will ever happen in Oram, Utah or UVU's history and we want to, we want to commemorate that. And so thank you, Taylor, for your work on the scene covering the scene. Do you have any other thoughts, Danny? I mean, we do have a picture of some UVU students 166 that are outside the courtroom. If we want to throw it at that real quick. So is that about all you're seeing right now? Is it just a couple students and that's about it? Yeah, I just a couple students from UVU or the surrounding area is just out here to support Erica and Charlie. Yeah. Did you see any in the lead up before they opened the doors? Was there any, I guess, discussion, confrontation between the people who are Tyler Robinson supporters and anyone else? No, I hadn't seen any, you know, confrontations of any story between the two. Neither really

27:21were there any, you know, the original week of preliminary hearings where you did kind of have more of an audience on both sides and attendance. They just kind of tend to stay in their own lane is what I've noticed. Has there really not really talked to anybody and if they do, they'll be friendly to you and not actually tell you why they're explicitly there, but there hasn't been any issues as of yet. Honestly, that surprises me a little because so many of these people are very, they're very confrontational, very aggressive, very performative on X. I mean, certainly one of those guys who's there yesterday was posting like, can't wait to see you, Ms. Franzma. Like they're, they're posting a lot of menacing stuff online. So I suppose it's a relief that they are less confrontational in real life in person that might speak to honestly, it's what we've discussed that the modern, it is the fact that this is online. I think it makes it hide behind the screen. You can hide behind your screen. It also just makes it very easy to dehumanize someone at a distance. It's like they're not a real person when you're just harassing a person on X. We've seen this with

28:24so many of the personnel at turning point when they go after our camera guys or our security guys or Charlie's team. It's very easy to do that and I think the willingness to really pick a fight and be cruel, it does go down when it's all in person and that's a relief, I suppose, but it does speak to the nature of modern, modern conspiracy theory culture, if you will. Taylor, if you have any final thoughts, we've got a couple minutes left and then we'll probably move on back to just summarizing the evidence as we wait for this hearing to actually be open to the public. I guess I'll just add a point to what you would just say about their behavior. I've always found it really interesting, my six plus years of reporting is usually how it tends to go, is the people that are most vocal online are the loudest. When you actually are around them in person, they're never actually going to say anything, they'll agree with you, they'll act like they're on your side or have the same opinions that you have. I'd say definitely it doesn't benefit, but it

29:29speaks to the volume of their character and their beliefs or if they actually even do believe the things that they post. Twitter specifically has turned into a monetization fight back and forth and, let's say you get paid to post, it doesn't matter what you post, but you're getting paid as long as someone engages with it. That's what you see here on the ground is, you see all these Twitter super soldiers that want to pose as reporters, but they've never actually reported on anything in their whole life. Then the minute you try to talk to them about differing opinions, they'll turn tail and run away or they'll just run away before they even see you. The mightiest soldiers, I'll tell you that much, they definitely are just here to, I imagine we'll see post from them later on saying that it was a huge win for Tyler Robinson somehow, but they are not serious people, nor should they be taking any serious. All right, well, Tyler, thank you for covering the scene there, thank you for describing it for our viewers who cannot be there. And thank you for all the work you and everyone else has done,

30:34we are very committed, we know a huge purpose of this show is to make sure everyone can see the process, play out of getting justice in this case. So thank you for joining again, Taylor. Yep, thanks for having me on Blake have a good day. We're joined now by a friend of the show Jack Passoba, Jack, are you there? Hey, what's up guys, what's up Blake, what's up Danny? Howdy Jack, thank you for joining, I think that's probably the best place to go. Jack, we've just been talking, we were talking with Taylor Hanson at the courthouse, he was describing the situation, which is relatively mild, he said there were about five or six supporters of Tyler Robinson at the scene, they all got into the actual hearing into the gallery, which is closed off right now, but he said there weren't dramatic confrontations, nobody was shouting anything. We talked to Jay Towne, he said he expects the prosecution to be as brief as possible because the case is strong. And if you're talking forever, you're just signaling that the case is weak. So

31:35why don't we just take a step back and remind our viewers what is the full scope of different evidence that has already been brought forth, even though we haven't gone to trial yet, even though we've really only had a preliminary probable cause hearing. Well, and I actually caught some of your conversation with Taylor there, and of course I attended the opening, the original initial part of the preliminary hearings, and for the week that I was there, it was very similar to what he described, not confrontational, yes, there were people on both sides who got into the courtroom from the public as well as both Charlie's family and Tyler Robinson's family in attendance. And what's significant, I think, too, though, is yes, that question about what are people locally talking about? And when I spent the week out there just going to restaurants or got a haircut when I was out there and different things like that, and we're talking to locals, and a lot of them, they were actually asking that they couldn't believe that the trial hadn't

32:37concluded yet. They actually thought that the trial had taken place, had concluded, was over, they didn't realize how, you know, it's seemingly laborious and lengthy the process is to go from a crime being committed to the hearing, and then eventually to the trial. Most people, of course, you know, get that, you know, there's sense of these things from TV shows and podcasts, and that's just not how the real world works. But what was interesting is, you know, most of the people that I talked to were genuinely sympathetic to Charlie couldn't believe that something that would happen, wouldn't believe that it happened there, and they said, oh, I, you know, most of the people were saying, oh, I thought they found that guy guilty already. The comparison just occurred to me, we've talked to Tyler, Charlie talked about this as well, when we were doing get out the vote, that we run into the routine problem, that individuals who are registered Republicans, they think they voted because they voted in the primary, they think they voted because they

33:39attended this rally or filled out this survey, they think they voted because they voted in the last election and their mind blurs it, and it seems like this as well, that there's been so much process, there's been these hearings, they've seen this evidence, so surely the trial has already happened, in fact, we might be a year out from this trial, but, Jack, I think this is a good opportunity for us to just, because this was such a drawn out preliminary hearing, we can remind people, the sheer scope of how much evidence has been in this case, that people make fun of the fact that they use the word overwhelming, but I've genuinely found myself thinking, has there been a case that has more different types of evidence introduced into it pointing towards the defendant's guilt? And, Jack, I'm not sure I really easily can, I think basically every type of evidence that could be offered in a murder case of this nature has already appeared in the trial, in the pre-trial, correct? Yeah, that's right, and part of that, of course, was the nature of the crime itself,

34:40right? This took place at a massive public event in a massive public space, this wasn't, you know, in a back alley, this wasn't something that took place in an office or a parking lot, or something like that, this was, and it was designed by the killer to be public, it was designed to get that maximum media attention, so we should actually expect in the 21st century with the technology that we have, with cameras like we have now, with cell phones and everything else, that we should start seeing more of this level of evidence, again, in these cases and in these situations, I think back to President Trump's assassination attempt at Butler, where there were all sorts of videos that were coming out of Thomas Matthew Crookes almost immediately, similar as well with Colt Thomas Allen at the Washington Correspondence Dinner, where he ran in firing at Secret Service, and so Ryan Routh as well, you had videos including some police cameras, which caught his car driving away and things like that, so it partially is because of

35:44the way that technology is moving, that we do have more ubiquitous cameras up and are able to catch people better and recreate their moments. I'll always go back to, you know, the Kyle Rittenhouse case a couple of years ago, which took place in 2020, but when the case happened in 2021, I remember that there was so much cell phone footage of that event that you could actually follow each individual, both Kyle Rittenhouse as well as the assailants, through almost the entire evening, if you just pulled together live streams from either supporters or different citizen journalists who were there, people like Brendan Goodensvager, people like, you know, just the other folks from Tritajur Hernandez was there that were documenting the entire thing, and it was incredible to think that, you know, in the past, we would have to go on witness recollections or have to go, in the Michael Brown case, I remember the autopsy was the only real evidence we had of where the people were standing because there was no video, and that was just about a decade ago. So the technology

36:48is moving very quickly, as you say, and in fact, our justice system is really rapidly catching up to that, because we don't have videos, like we do now, of some of the most high-profile assassinations that do place in our history, but now we do. Yeah, we're very fortunate, because I think the nature of Charlie's death means the conspiracy theories would be inevitable. I think these arguments would have happened no matter what, and imagine if it was the case, for example, that the only evidence we had was maybe one photo of Tyler Robinson somewhere on campus, or if it was just the footage from the top of the building, because people have nitpicked those but it's worth reminding people everything fits together. So we have many videos from the campus of this individual walking around in multiple changes of outfit. We have footage of this car, which is clear enough to say this is, this resembles the car that is registered to Tyler Robinson. We have DNA on the screwdriver. We have DNA on the rifle. We have the engravings on the rounds,

37:49which are paired with a machine that Tyler Robinson owns. We have text messages. We have cell phone data. We have testimony from his roommate. All of this is fitting together. We have connections. We have connections. All of it is fitting together. So if you can nitpick one thing, I don't think you can nitpick all of it, and I think we're blessed in that regard. Before he ever stepped onto a debate stage or behind a microphone, Charlie understood something really important, that if you want to lead, you first have to learn. Charlie believed that ideas shape character, conviction, and courage. That's why he spent years studying the classics, the American founding, and the Bible through Hillsdale College's free online courses. He would rave about these courses all the time. These free online courses are taught by Hillsdale College professors and draw from the same great books and enduring ideas studied on Hillsdale's campus. Hillsdale's newest free online course is the Iliad, where Professor Steven Smith guides students through Homer's great epic of honor,

38:49courage, friendship, leadership, and the pursuit of true greatness. For nearly 3,000 years, the Iliad has shaped the Western imagination. It tells the story of Achilles' as he confronts injustice, rage, grief, responsibility, and the terrible costs of war. But Homer's epic is more than a story of ancient battles. It raises enduring questions about courage, duty, leadership, sacrifice, and self command. Achilles is the greatest warrior among the Greeks, but Homer asks whether strength alone is enough to make a man truly great. In this new free online course, you'll follow Achilles through the defining trials of his life and discover why one of the greatest works of Western literature still speaks to the permanent questions of human life. Charlie understood that learning isn't just about gaining knowledge. It's about forming the mind and character needed to face the challenges of life with wisdom and courage. You can enroll today completely free and take this class or their 40 plus other free online courses. Just visit Charlie for Hillsdale.com to start learning today. That's Charlie for Hillsdale.com. Learn deeply.

39:50Think clearly, lead boldly, and carry it forward just like Charlie. Well, we were discussing before the hearing started, Danny, what a Kafka S. legal, very glacial process this was. I think we just got an astounding display of that. What happened in the last hour, Danny? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. That is correct. We had an hour of closed-door deliberation over a motion from the defense. It really was remarkable. Judge Graff is very, I think, the most kind term is methodical with his handling. I think you noticed what he'll tend to do on any subject is he'll describe at length what the defense's claim is, what the prosecution's counter is before issuing his own ruling on it. That's what a lot of last hour was. Defense argues that the following would be prejudicial to the defendant if media is able to see this, if there is this or that media

40:56circus around it. But then there is this Supreme Court precedent. Here's this Utah Constitution that goes against this. You do all this set up to then say, defense's motion is thereby denied. And so there was a lot of song and dance for a lot of denied motions. But I do think one thing that was very interesting, there was some back and forth, which if you were paying attention to the hearing you may have noticed, there was back and forth about whether to redact the name of a website in their discussion that originally there had been a website named and then the defense wanted to remove the name of the website. And then that ended up being denied so it was voiced. And we were wondering what it was. The website turned out to be polymarket. There was reference to the fact that on polymarket, which is one of these betting websites prediction markets as they call them, there is a market for Will Tyler Robinson B. I think we can even check what's up there

41:58right now. I think there's one for Will he be convicted? Let's just check. I mean, what's live right now? Tyler Robinson convicted of homicide. And that's a market that exists right now. And it's only right now it's listed as 43% chance. But it appears it's because, ah, yes. So it's 43%, but it's because the market is whether he will be convicted of criminal homicide by July 31st of 2027. In other words, we might not even have the trial by then. It's practically a guess I suspect as to whether there'll be a very accelerated trial or he might plead guilty as well. And they mentioned this and you can actually if you open this market, guys, maybe you guys want to check on this, you can see it fluctuate over the course of the weeks. It goes up above 55, as high as almost 60% drops down. Right now, as we said, it's 43%. And the defense brought up that

43:01there's almost it's contributing to a circus like atmosphere around the case that people are betting money on whether Tyler Robinson will be convicted. And it gets me thinking about the bigger picture of whether these markets are potentially harmful because we just want justice for Charlie in this case, but you can imagine what if someone on the prosecution team decided they wanted to, you know, they could make a bet on this. Someone on the defense team could make money off of this. Someone in a jury could make money off of this concern. That's a massive concern because one juror, one juror, and this is a market with $316,000 dollars volume. So non, you know, non negligible amount of money in this one person anywhere in the case can gum up the entire process can throw a case in order to make money. And we've never really had a possibility like that before. And it's it's very dark how I think this case, it's become almost a test run for so many

44:08things that were unprecedented. So it's the first big criminal trial. It feels in the prediction market era where that's possible to happen. It's the first big criminal trial. First big, frankly, conspiracy theory in the AI era where people can get fooled by AI deep fakes. We saw that for example with the Tyler Robinson footage that people would post an AI enhanced image of the security footage and then go, this doesn't look anything like Tyler Robinson. Well, yeah, it's an AI generated image effectively. And so it's filling in details that aren't actually there. And so that's what I found myself thinking about because as we mentioned, basically nothing happened. Absolutely. So what we are looking towards after lunch, they'll come back and there was supposed to be about 45 minutes of prosecution argument. I'm not sure if we're going to be able to get Jay back in. I invited him, but I was texting with him during the hearing because he'd said they

45:09shouldn't take more than 15 or 20 minutes. But then the prosecution said like everything. It's going to take about four times as long as they could. They're going to make a take. Yeah, but he's said they anticipated 45 minutes and then we promptly got 20, 25 minutes of back and forth over whether they can show an image that's of the shooting and all of that. And I believe when they come back from lunch, they're going to be arguing that again. Yeah, they're still arguing. It might be another hour before we even get to the 40 minutes. So I asked Jay and he said, I asked, you know, why aren't they going for just 20 minutes? And he says it takes a set of balls to do only 20 minutes when you are given two hours. It is hard for lawyers to not want to talk and be more convincing. It's something we've been trained to do. And so to sit down early is something that our minds and our bodies resist. So he says he says 45 minutes is a reasonable amount of time. He thinks it should be less, but that's the nature of layers. He also did say the judge loves to see himself talk on television. So the judge did say he would make his decision. He did. He did. He said

46:15we'll get about 45 minutes for the prosecution. Then the defense will go. They said, I think an hour and a half is how long they expect to go. So double that just to be said. And then he said also is going to break before his decision. He said he expected about a one hour break. And then he does anticipate issuing his ruling. But it is already noon, mountain time. These I think they're coming back at one. Yep. And so they can that I've will they get those actual parts done in three hours. They're up by four. They can come back at five. He can issue his ruling. Are we going to get some extended time? How much capacity does he have to extend it into the mid or late evening? I don't know all of the rules on that. But he did at least judge graph did voices commitment to issuing a ruling today. I think that is what we care about most. So if it drags out for an extra half hour or hour here and there, I'm fine with that. As long as we finally get that ruling because that is what we've been waiting for for a year at this point. Is there anything else you noticed in that very uneventful one hour? No. It's a whole lot of just lawyers like to hear themselves talk.

47:22They do. And it really it really shows you especially the nature of a case this high profile. It's a capital case. How they are objecting to everything. I think another part that was very memorable. The judge mentioned the defense objected to the number of like possible cameras that they could have in the courtroom with the note that the tripods, the sound of them opening or jangling about. It would be distracting to the court and to the proceedings. I've never heard an objection of that nature before in court. And yeah, the judge, you know, he treated it seriously. He actually did say he is capping the amount. I think he vetoed a request for a second photographer. He said Salt Lake Tribune gets their photographer. There's going to be like one camera, one photographer. And I think that's all there's going to be. And so he effectively ruled a bit in their favor on that one. But the fact that they're objecting to the sound of a tripod, they're objecting to

48:25the publication of the name of a website and had to get overruled on that. It really shows why this case has been taken as long as it has because every single thing is subject to a possible objection. And this judge does like to litigate those at length, even if he does rule in the prosecution's favor ultimately. Yeah, that's about, I mean, nothing else really happened at all. So we'll see after this lunch, when they start arguing the evidence again. And then from there, we go into their actual arguments, which will be 40 minutes for the prosecution. So double that double that. So about probably an hour and a half for the prosecution and two to two and a half hours for the defense. And then an hour recess for the judge to the side. And then hopefully comes back and makes his decision. Hopefully, hopefully, I'm trying to see if we can get Jay even briefly here to talk about what we saw. Otherwise, we can go for a few more minutes here. If you have any questions, email them in and we can try to answer those. I also thought now it

49:27could be a good chance. We'll go over this at the end of today when I think it's pretty likely that after all this song and dance, we will get the bind over ruling. But I want to look ahead to what happens after we, if this does go to trial, what sort of stuff we can look towards. Non-zero chance. I think it's very low, but maybe one or two percent. In theory, we could get a arrangement. If it goes to trial, we could get an arrangement pretty soon. I don't think we'll get it today. We are hopeful we might get that if proceedings were quick. They could do the arrangement right here. Seems like that would be delayed. That is the point where we would enter a plea, I believe, of guilty or not guilty. If you were to plead guilty, we would go to a penalty phase. But even that actually is a very elaborate process. You need to create an entire jury. Even though there's no trial, you create a jury just for the penalty phase. They would have to be selected for whether they're open to imposing the death penalty. You would need unanimity

50:29to impose that in this case. You'd need all 12 jurors to say that they want that. Another thing, and this raised my eyebrow a bit, you need 10 out of 12 jurors just to impose life without parole. Three holdouts in a jury of 12 could block a life without parole sentence in this case. I will say as someone who, I think the evidence is very strong against Tyler Robinson, and I think the nature of this crime is so heinous. If we were to fall short of even that, I think it would be a severe indictment of our justice system as it currently stands. It's kind of crazy. We're looking at other news too, and the only other news going on today is another court case, which is the Lindsey Clancy case is deadlocked. That's just another example of, I think, what we're all thinking about is we have a jury system. It's an important facet of our Anglo-Saxon common law going back centuries, but it does have, it has the strength and the weak point that it is not

51:33a, it's not a tool of the powerful. It is a tool of ordinary people, and we see in that Lindsey Clancy case a woman who's very clearly guilty, but you insert 12 normal people and you can mess it up and you can get people who say, actually, I emphatically will not convict this woman. So that case, they are apparently deadlocked. We'll see if they're even able to reach a verdict, and we have to worry, could that happen in this case? And we just have to hope not. Midterm elections are coming up and control of Congress is on the line. If there's one thing, financial markets hate, it's uncertainty, and uncertainty is exactly what the next few months are going to bring. In 2024, if it taught us anything, it's that uncertainty breeds volatility between now and November could be one of the most volatile stretches for the stock market and the economy. So you owe it to yourself to have a plan. Here's the good part. There's a simple way to protect what you've built, and that's gold, physical gold and silver, let you hedge against

52:35that volatility. And there's no better partner for it than noble gold investments. For over a decade, noble gold has helped everyday Americans protect their wealth with precious metals. They make it simple, they make it easy, and they make it safe. You can trust them. Give them a call 877-646-5347. That's 877-647. Or visit them online at noblegoldinvestments.com slash Kirk and find out how to protect yourself, your wealth and your family. Noblegoldinvestments.com slash Kirk. Election day is coming. Don't let it arrive without a plan. And here's the best part. To celebrate America's 250th, just mention the Charlie Kirk show when you call noble gold and they'll send you a free 10-ounce silver bar when you open a new qualified account. Mention the Charlie Kirk show. That's all you got to do and they'll do the rest. Jay welcome back. You're the professional. What did you make of that most uneventful hour? It sort of falls in line with the last 12 months, right? I mean there's a lot of

53:41bloating, a lot of talk, a lot of sort of hearings and motions and this judge loves to see himself on television. But at the same time, you know, I was proud the prosecution took 45 minutes. It's really hard, folks need to understand as lawyers. You know, it is, we've been trained to argue. And when you give me two hours, our body, our mind, resists any attempt to take an hour at 59 minutes only. And so to go 40, 45, it really takes some real intestinal fortitude to do 20 minutes and sit down. So I thought that was a good job. But you know, this judge is prolonging what to, I mean, look, I've career prosecutor. I've been in the prosecution business for the law enforcement business for 30 years. I was a United States attorney appointed by the President of the United States. I don't know what else this judge needs to see or hear. And in allowing these ridiculous records just to be built, they're going to be built again at the trial. That's where it

54:44matters anyway. Nothing really matters at the preliminary hearing stage. If he's then convicted by a jury during a perfect trial, it's just sort of absurd. But hopefully we get a ruling from this judge very quickly. If not today, that would be great. But at the pace, this judge, the breakneck pace, this judge has gone at, I just don't see that happening. There'll be some written order sometime after the long weekend. The judge enjoys probably starting tomorrow. He did say he hopes to take a recess and then do it. But then we promptly got 20, 25 minutes of back and forth over whether this specific piece of evidence will be shown. I'm very worried you'll be correct. We were discussing at the start of this recess something that really stood out to me. And it's not something that I feel has ever been a part of a major criminal trial before. They talked about the fact that there is a polymarket betting market on this case. Will Tyler Robinson be convicted of homicide? We were checking it and it's willy be convicted by the end of next July.

55:47So it's 43%. You're basically betting on two things. The outcome of the case and the speed of the case has anything like this ever existed in criminal justice in the United States before. And how worried should we be about it? We debate whether sports gambling is good. Should we just have a ban on having a betting market on a criminal justice proceeding like this? Something feels very worrisome to me that any person, a judge, a prosecutor, a defense lawyer, a member of the jury, any one of them could use this market as a way to profit here. Or a cousin or a friend or a former roommate. It's exponential, the number of people that could be influenced, especially if I find myself on that jury. And it's a June trial. And I'm the load hangout. Hold up. I hang. I'm the one that won't vote no. Well guess what? I just won whatever

56:48money. And I didn't bet on CalShi or on polymarket. Some other person did. And they live in Michigan, not in Utah. So how could investigators ever get to that? It is absolutely should be against the law to bet on a public trial. Absolutely. And I just think our justice system cannot afford any fingers on the scale from anyone and to induce people, especially financially, to do so. It's already illegal. And so they need to extend that to the, I mean it would be illegal if a juror conspired with somebody to put money on polymarket, got on the jury and then hung up just so they could win the bet. That's already illegal. But there shouldn't be any polymarket on any type of trial or court case anywhere in the United States of America. Yeah. It's not so much that it

57:49creates new possibilities for illegality. As you say, it's almost certainly already, it's already a crime to do those things. But it makes it so much easier, so much more straightforward to do. And so if we have, if we have a good takeaway from this sort of thing, I don't really think any public good is served by having gambling markets on whether Tyler Robinson is convicted or a lot of, or any criminal trial, as you say. So, Jay, is there any way during jury selection if you're the prosecution to kind of filter some of that out, or is it basically impossible? Well, it's in the first person, it's very possible, right? Have you ever wangered on polymarket or calcium or any of these other websites? And they say, no, I haven't. But my wife has, or do you know of anybody who has, would be my next question? And then you're now you're into a lie, right? But you can also see after a board deer, hey man, I made the jury. You should start a

58:54polymarket account and let's figure out what we want to bet on here, because I can control the universe of these bets. That's, that's just frightening. And it's so unnecessary to even take that risk. Someone's freedom, right? Most importantly, and I say that knowing Tyler Robinson murdered Charlie Kurt, but his freedom is at stake. And so we, we don't ever want to compromise a system that takes someone's freedom. In fact, their life possibly away. And there's also the victims family. They deserve a fair trial. They deserve a speedy trial. They don't need one compromised by these, these wagering sites. So I just, if this is something that if Congress could do something about this, this would be a great thing to bring up to them. And this should be a layup. And on polymarket, it shows you the total amount of money bet on each specific thing. So let's say during the trial, when this, if it goes to trial, if it has a lot more publicity and this is going on, we see a sudden spike in how much the total market is. Could that be used for an appeal down the

59:59line or anything? As a reason of it could have been influenced because suddenly so much more money came into the market, I don't know where it could, but that would have to be, there'd have to be one more step, right? It's, it's, I mean, look, if you, if you have the evidence that is, you know, all the sudden the DNA evidence and all the confessions and, you know, he told his mother, his mother testifies against him, the market's going to go up that he's going to get convicted. More people are going to, are going to bet at that point that, yeah, this guy's toast. But if it goes the other way, then I would be looking into people that place those large wagers and see if they knew anybody in and around the trial. And that could be, that could serve as an appellate issue, I think, for sure. We're, we're basically a half hour out from hopefully finally getting the final arguments in this preliminary hearing. Do you have any predictions about what we'll see? Apparently the prosecution

1:01:01is planning to take 45 minutes, then the defense will go, then there will be a prosecution wrap up it sounds like. What are they going to fill that time with? Is it going to be a methodical reciting of all the evidence? Will they fixate on specific ones? What do you think we're likely to hear? Well, if I was doing it, I would fixate just on the evidence, right? And there's a, there's a mountain. Let the defense say whatever they're going to say. They're going to attack the death penalty, they're going to attack the, the elements of, you know, putting other people in danger, political speech, things like that. It was a religious thing. It wasn't a political thing. Well, you don't, I mean, they're going to say whatever a defense lawyer or a good defense lawyer should say. But so I think that you meet the elements with the facts. And so when I prosecuted a case, you know, a statute says person did X, person did Y, person intended to do Z, therefore they're guilty. And so I think that at the same time, you just, you just put two facts next to each element and

1:02:01you move on to the next charge. And hopefully that's all the prosecution does. Hopefully they don't need the whole 45 minutes, but I'm glad they're keeping it limited to that amount of time. The only other thing that came up that I feel like could become relevant during the trials, they said witnesses were being threatened. We saw this that we're in the preliminary hearings in the past. What, how do you foresee that changing the trial in the future or how would the judge rule on that or go about protecting witnesses? Yeah, I mean, look, my, my name come down and have an offer them, you know, physical protection, police protection herein lies the, the, the, woeful judgment of allowing this to continue for a year. So the circus tents can be set up in Utah. And the tinfoil hat crowd can continue on with their conspiracies that all of these witnesses are just liars. All of these witnesses are, are, you know, part of the federal government and some conspiracy with Israel or whatever it is, right? Whatever ridiculous tinfoil hat conspiracy they're

1:03:02coming up with. And people take it seriously. They trust the people that are saying it mostly online. And, and they might want to take action. And this doesn't, this doesn't help the system writ large because witnesses don't want to come forward. If my life is going to be threatened, you know, because I did the right thing and I came forward because I saw, you know, a, a, a thing, a guy at the place. I don't want to be a part of it because I don't want to die. I don't want someone to burn my house down or, or, or keep my car or so much as harass me in the mall. And, and so this is why these things should move and progress quickly instead of, you know, taking a year to get past a preliminary hearing, gentlemen, this is a better than a point to us, Tyler Robinson did it. That is all that is being decided. Is there, we've, we've, we've really, we've moaned a lot. We've said, okay, we've, let's, we've said we should maybe change the laws to ban these prediction markets around a homicide case. We've moaned a lot about how long this has taken. For practical purposes,

1:04:05because we always want to look for practical takeaways to things, you're a legislator in Utah. What could you do to make it so these cases are resolved in months rather than half decades? You could put speed trial laws in place where preliminary hearings have to be set within a certain period of time. They obviously could be continued, but for cause and by the defense and, and one time by the prosecution one time. But this, that, you know, that takes you into five months. That's not unreasonable. If you need expert testimony and things like that, well, you better start crack and once you get your, once you get your client together, again, it's preliminary hearing. The, I've done thousands of preliminary hearings. I can tell you that, you know what, it was one witness, right? I have the cop, the arresting officer comes in, reads the police report, reads the medical examiner report, and that's the end of the prelim. You don't have 48 witnesses coming. It's absurd. This is a mini trial with a much lower standard. There's no reason to do that. Now you have all these

1:05:06witnesses on record with sworn statements that if they said in the prelim, I saw a small dog and they say in the trial, they saw a puppy, then the defense could try to create reasonable doubt out that. That's absurd. You know, that's why you just have one witness come on and read a bunch of hearsay. Because the hearsay wouldn't be a missible in court. You call the witness that said it, that the investigator wrote, read their statement or the interview. And this is, we're seeing this in the client's trial as well. It's under prosecuted and overthought. Now is Judge Graff, you think worried about a potential appeal and that's why he's going so slow. He's trying to cover every basis. Or what would be his reasoning for trying to make this so slow and laborious? Yeah, I can't think of one because if there's a trial and he's convicted beyond a reason without, it's that record that it is appeal, right? I mean, the preliminary hearing is meaningless because it's such a low standard. Once it's proven beyond a reasonable doubt, it's what happened in that trial

1:06:09that matters. That's where there's a sentence. That's where there's a punishment. So, you know, there's no reason for this to have gone at this pace whatsoever. And I'm sorry guys, I have to run, but I got to tell you that that's all right. Covering this. No, and I just want to say, anybody with a functioning limbic system would bound this over for trial, but also America's hearts are still broken coming up on the one-year anniversary of Charlie's murder. And thank you guys for continuing to shine a light on this. Of course, thank you so much for joining us, Jay. It won't be the last time we talk with you. So take care and we'll see you soon. Thanks guys. All right, well, I don't know that we have too much more to say at this point. We may take a lunch break ourselves. I mean, I think that's the second time I've heard Jay's limbic system as is Indian. That's definitely one choice. Fraze of his, but it refers to your your mental structures and in deep in your brain. And we're hoping we get the right ruling

1:07:10later this afternoon. Hopefully tonight, hopefully not after Labor Day, that's what he was speculating on. The judge has said he wants to rule today. Please spare us from dragging this out further, judge graph. We want to get this moving towards a trial. It's been a year. Let's just, let's hope for God's mercy on all of us. I should say I want to check if we got any email questions. Yeah, we got one from Declan that says if this does go to trial, we'll Tyler get a plea. And when can we expect the trial to start? I'm so done with waiting. Well, you know, that polymarket that we wish with band probably gives us a good indication. It seems they think there's a 43% chance he gets convicted, which I'd say that's taking a bit of the chance that he would plead guilty. So he would plea. If this is bound over, he would plea quite soon. There would be an arrangement. He would enter a plea. Then there's the preparatory phase. Andrea Burkhart, she said she anticipates like a year plus long weight. She was saying early 28. The market seems to think there's a decent

1:08:17chance we get it earlier than that. Maybe there'd be a six month weight and then we'd get it next spring. We don't know for sure, but we would get a plea pretty soon. If this goes forward, it could be guilty. It could be not guilty. If it's guilty, you go straight to the penalty phase, which will still take ages because you have to create the jury. The jury still has to hear a lot of testimony, in fact, as to the aggravating factors, the mental state of the perpetrator, all of that. So pretty, pretty long process throughout another thing that actually comes into play. We don't know if judge graph will oversee the trial or not. That seems the most likely one, but there's been petitions for change of venue because they say it's caused too much of a circus in the provo area. So they would move it to another county in Utah. I don't feel like that would be terribly useful or desirable, and people I've talked to don't think it will happen. We could move it to a different judge even within the county. Again, Andrea seemed to think that was unlikely, but these are all possibilities that come into play. There's so many ways that this can be dragged out longer and

1:09:18longer. But speaking of dragging out things longer and longer, anything else we want to say here? We just saw another comment from Kyrie said, the polymarket stuff is horrifying. The love of money is the root of all evil. Betting on the outcome of a trial should not be permitted. I think this is a real takeaway from this. We like to look at those betting markets because they can cut through a lot of BS. But when there's so much room for corruption in this, the fact that our criminal justice system requires so many honest good faith actors throughout and making it so much easier to engage in corruption by your friend bets on the outcome of this and you just tell them, hey, I'm going to throw it this way or that. Huge, dangerous. I don't see what the value adds to the public. That's in addition to all the threats against potential jurors in the future that will come that could influence the outcome of stuff, whether they're also threatened

1:10:21like witnesses have been to do or not. In sports athletes get threatened all the time because people who are addicts to this blame a pro athlete. Oh, you made me lose money on this. Now imagine that gambler addict psychosis in our criminal justice system. Absolute poison. If there's one takeaway I have from today so far, let's just ban that federal level. But state level two Utah legislators, please go make it a criminal offense to bet on one of these markets in your state or even to have it hosted on one of your websites. I think we just need to say absolutely not. But beyond that, I think we're ready for our own mini lunch break. I think he said they'll be coming back at one their time. So that is about 20 minutes from now. We will hopefully finally hear the prosecution. Make its final argument. Then the defense. Then we'll get another hour long break. We might come back for a bit of that. And then we'll get the decision and we'll wrap it all up. Thank you to everyone who's been tuning in today. Who's been following this. Who wants to see justice done

1:11:22before Charlie. We deeply appreciate it. And we will be back in a few hours. For more on many of these stories and news you can trust go to charliekirk.com.