Anti-Zionism: A Jewish History (Interview with Benjamin Moser) | DeProgram with Ted Rall and Jamarl Thomas

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1:05It's Tuesday, September 22nd, 2026. This morning we've got an interview with Ben Moser, the author of Anti-Zionism, A Jewish History, which is a great title because of self-explanatory. We will be having him live in just a couple of minutes. Also later in the show, if we have time, we'll see how it goes. We'll talk about the Wall Street Journal report that says that Trump wants to send $5 billion to the Gulf States to repair the infrastructure from the Iran War. This wild story about Belarus, where Trump basically was looking to solve the fertilizer problem for American farmers by sourcing potash, something we don't talk about very often in the news here. Sourcing potash from Belarus, inexplicably, a very close ally of Russia. I don't know how that would have worked. Belarus is like, we don't know what you're talking about. We're going to get into all that.

2:06Good morning, Jamal. How are you doing? I'm doing okay. You're doing all right. I am doing very, very well. I'm very excited about our guest this morning. Benjamin Moser, I'll just read his bio from the book. I've been reading the book for the last week. He's the author of Why This World, a Biography of Clarisse Lyspector, a finalist for the National Book Critics Circle Award, and a New York Times Notable Book of 2009. I will admit I'm jealous of that last one. For his work bringing Clarisse Lyspector to international prominence, he received Brazil's first state prize for cultural diplomacy. Sontag, her life and work won the Pulitzer in 2020 Great Book. I enjoyed that. The upside down world meetings with the Dutch Masters came out in 2023. He completed Antiscientism of the Jewish History at the Dorothy and Louis B. Coleman Center for Scholars and writers at the New York Public Library. I don't know if that's the same place Robert Carroll worked on his magisterial power broker about the early development of New York City and the highways and stuff around there.

3:11Anyway, let's go ahead and bring in Ben. Good morning, Ben. Hi. Great to be here. It's great to have you. So I've been reading your book with great interest. I was looking forward to it even before I read it. It exceeded expectations. So I think the first thing we should just get to is obviously the timing of it couldn't be more potent, but obviously, I can imagine you're going to be dealing with some considerable controversy. But I guess the first thing is if maybe you can just sort of lay the groundwork by explaining the theater, Herzl, and the sort of the early days of Zionism in the late 1800s, and how basically what were the roots of Zionism as we know it today and that culminated with the creation of the state of Israel? Well, one thing that's really important to understand is that in the 19th century when Herzl starts out writing this book called the Jewish State, he's writing it in an explicitly

4:16colonial time where you can pretty much, if you're a white person from Europe, you look at the map and you think, where can I put my new colony? And you pick out some place somewhere, always not white parts of the world. Like you would never say that Jews are being oppressed in Russia, which they were, therefore we should take a place in Russia. You would always look to the non-white parts. And so he looks to a part of the world that's lost time. But at the same time he's starting this project in the Jewish State, he writes, well, we could also go to Argentina. But the weird thing about this book, and there's a lot that's really weird about it and I had never read it until a few years ago, I just knew him as sort of this famous figure from history, is that he doesn't, he devotes three paragraphs to this question. It's called Palestine or Argentina, and it's literally three paragraphs. He says, well, Argentina would be great because they have a lot of land and it's a very rich country, agriculturally. So maybe that, on the other hand, there's Palestine where it's our historic home and maybe

5:17we should do Palestine. We'll tell the Sultan that we need this land for, I mean, it's almost like Trump won in Greenland, you know, it's just really weird. And he says, we will form a wall of civilization again, barbarism. So he's inserting it in this very explicitly colonial and racist and imperialist kind of context, which Zionists later go on to deny. I mean, they devoted huge amount of effort to saying that this is an indigenous liberation movement. The problem is that at the time that Zionism, Zionist settlement starts, Palestine is between 95 and 97% non-Jewish. So what are you going to do with the 97% of population? And from the very beginning, they all agree. It's not a land without a people for a people without a land. Not really. This is what I kind of grew up thinking. This was the story that Jewish kids used to get told. I hope less now, although I'm not so optimistic about it. But yeah, something that simplistic and Zionism always was really simplistic.

6:22Like it gives you a very easy solution. You say, well, the Jews are being oppressed here. So why don't we just take off to Palestine, which is our homeland and we're going to just live there and nobody's going to bother? I mean, it sounds great except for a few obvious questions. Like does anybody live there? And does anybody want us there? And does anybody just do other people's just like just pack their things and say, okay, you can have my house and my country and we're going to move somewhere else? I mean, it doesn't occur to Herzl. And so the thing that's really fascinating about reading him is how absolutely crazy he is. He has this fantasy about making his four-year-old son the doge of the Jews. And before that, he has this fantasy about converting all the Jews to Catholicism. And he's going to bring the Pope in and the Pope's going to say some touching words and all the Jews are just going to become Catholics. But he never says like, who are these people that are going to do this?

7:24Like Jews aren't going to just like not like in every single Jew in the whole of central Europe is just going to say great never mind. So it's really weird to read it because you kind of want to make fun of him and you kind of want to be like, dude, you're a fucking nut. But on the other hand, you have to take him seriously because these ideas did catch on. And they've had consequences for millions and millions of people. So it's like, I'm sorry, was this a, I mean, I sort of read it as an analogy to Marcus Garvey in the back to Africa movement. Basically, we're an oppressed people. We get attacked and abused everywhere we are in the world. We got to have our own place or we'll never be safe. Is that basically right? That's basically it. I mean, Marcus Garvey is very different. But like, if you want to make a comparison similar to that, you can compare Liberia to that, which is basically like black Americans are never going to be accepted in this country. It's irredeemably racist.

8:24We need to get out of here and just go back to Africa. But what happens in Liberia, which is exactly what happens in Israel, is that this basically Europeanized or Americanized population sets themselves up in the same kind of master slave dynamic that they were escaping from. And so, you know, so with the anti-sianist, did I write about my book? Well, we, I can now say we, because you know, I've been part of this movement for a long time. But we are part of the movement that wants to say, everybody should be equal. It doesn't matter where you live. It doesn't matter your religion or your race or your specs or your sexuality or whatever it is. People should be equal. And that's a very, that's a very compelling concept. But it's a concept, of course, in the 20th century, with the Holocaust and everything comes under an incredible amount of pressure. And people just say, you know what, like this is, it's a great idea. Sure, like everybody should be equal. But practical thing is, you know, this is, we're getting killed. We need to have our own place.

9:26And that's very understandable to people. It's very understandable to me as well. It's just that when you read the history of this movement and the history of the Jews who have said, this is going to end badly. And then you look at the fact that the most dangerous place in the world for Jews by a massive, massive margin since 1945, Israel. Wow. I explain something to the audience. And I guess maybe even to myself. How did they originally get on to the land? And how did they originally start getting delayed itself as they started to expand in the Palestine? Meaning, well, so it's very, yeah. Yeah. I mean, so in the 19th century, what they do is they set up little colonies, little settlements, little towns, you know, they buy some farmland or they buy some, you know, they set up a little village or something. Which by the way, like people did all over the world. I mean, a lot of people, if you think about the settlement of this country, you know, in the 19th century, like people, like, I don't know, like a community of Swedes would

10:27buy a little area in Minnesota and they would all settle a bunch of Swedes there. The difference with Israel is that very, or with Zionism in Palestine is that very quickly they start trying to ethnically cleanse and stop out the local population. So there's a whole dynamic where they come in. They don't come as immigrants. I think this is the big, big difference. They don't come in as immigrants. They come in as conquerors and they explicitly say that they boycott the native era population. They won't let them work on their farms. Which creates real dislocation for a lot of people. And as more and more people come in, it creates more and more problems. And it's not until 1917 to 1919, really, when they get the Balfour Declaration. They know, Hurtsville knows they have to have an imperialist backer. Just like they have today, they have to have the US paying their bills or otherwise the whole thing falls apart in 30 minutes. So they get the British army basically to support them. Because they're still a tiny minority.

11:28I mean, even the Balfour Declaration is 1917, they've been added for more than a generation and they're still less than 10% of the population. So with the Balfour Declaration seems to presage in my reading of your book. This unholy agreement between Nazi Germany and the Zionist movement, where basically you have anti-Semites in the case of the imperial English rage era. And it's kind of like, oh, you Jews want to not be in Europe anymore. Oh, yeah, where are we like that? That's fantastic. We can work together. This is really, I mean, just going back to like, as Marcus Garvey is a separate topic, going back to Liberia, this is really what they said too. I mean, this is what the early founders of Liberia really appealed to American races. They said, like, you want to get rid of black people? Great. Get rid of us. We're going to go. The thing is about Zionism's bond with the anti-Semites.

12:29They understood Herzl says from the very beginning, our closest allies will be the anti-Semites. And they appealed very explicitly. I mean, the thing that's so weird about Zionism is that they're always really, they sail this stuff. You know, you don't have to dig deep into the quotes to find this stuff. They know that they have to appeal to anti-Semitism in order to make this healing. And so the British cabinet is pretty explicitly anti-Semitic. The time the Balfour Declaration is adopted. And the only Jewish member of the cabinet, and when Montaguey cried about in the book, says this is anti-Semitic in intent, and it will have anti-Semitism as it results. And boy will see right. Through this day, you see how much Zionists, Israel, people to anti-Semitism, the anti-Semitic leaders, but also to the threat of anti-Semitism and the whipping up of fear among Jews. They were always very good at making Jews afraid.

13:32Ben, can you tell us a little bit about the, I mean, to me, it seems like, I mean, there's a lot to unpack here. So I'm glad we have some time to do it, but there probably won't be enough time. But what it seemed to me that the big philosophical shift that creates, that allows Zionism to take hold is the idea of Judaism not as a religion anymore. In other words, like I grew up Catholic, Catholics live all over the world, except for Vatican City. There isn't really a Catholic state anymore. But you know, Catholics abound, right? And Judaism, but for Zionists, the religion, the faith takes a back seat and it becomes more of an ethnicity, more of a national status. And if you're an ethnicity like the Kurds, then you need a homeland. If you're a religion, you can live anywhere. And I mean, so it's kind of a two-part question.

14:33And you also point out something that I think is really forgotten now, is that Jews were living peacefully throughout the era of world, throughout the Muslim world, before the creation of the state of Israel. And you talk about, if you can, I mean, I was blown away, pun intended, by your discussion about what happened to the Baghdaddi Jews, that community of over 100,000 people. The oldest in the world. Yeah. Well, I mean, the thing about it is that Jews are both an ethnicity and a religious group. So in some parts of the world, like, and I'm sitting here in Brooklyn, New York, and believe me, I'm white. You know what I mean? Like, nobody's like, if I was living in Poland in the 19th century, well, then no. Right? Like the Jews are seen as this separate thing. They have a separate language. They have separate ways of dressing. They have separate professions. They have separate neighborhoods that they live in. In some cases, like real ghettos. But the thing is, as the Jews get emancipated in the 19th century, which happens first

15:34in the United States, and then it happens in France. And then France conquers most of Europe and brings Napoleon conquers most of Europe and then brings these progressive laws into Germany and Italy and even into Poland and to a certain extent into Russia. So it's a real revolution. This is Matt Rogers from Los Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Los Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. Okay. We've been talking about Cubimeil for a minute now, Bowen. Wow. The feedback we're getting. I mean, so many of you all love this stuff. You're stopping us in the street going, I love Cupid. And if you're thinking, wait, what is Cupid? Do you not have the internet? It's the OG Japanese mayonnaise. The one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle. Once you know what, you start seeing it everywhere. People ask what makes it different from basic mayo? Well, the answer? Egg yolks. Cupid is made with egg yolks only, giving it this incredibly rich umami flavor that elevates everything. Burgers, fries, sandwiches, chicken, noodles, chefs use it, restaurants use it, people

16:37who really love food and flavor use it. Whatever you're eating, Cupid hit. So if you haven't tried Cupid yet, find the bottle with the red cap and see what everyone's talking about. You'll understand Cupid, the original Japanese mayonnaise. And throughout the 19th century, the Jews do pretty well in Europe actually. And they are allowed to integrate and they're allowed to go to universities. They're allowed to enter professions. They're allowed to live in other neighborhoods, you know, um, that ends. But at the same time, there is a distance. I mean, there's a difference between news that some people like the rabbi at the beginning of the book, you know, he says, what we're not trying to be like other people, which is what people say is assimilation. You know, we're not trying to be exactly like other people. What we want is civil rights. We want equality. It doesn't mean we want to disappear. Now the scientists were extremely anti-Jewish religion. And this is something that is really hard to explain if you don't really, because there's

17:39this conflation of Jews and scientists, but actually the scientists really didn't like Judaism. They thought it was medieval. They thought it was holding the Jews back. They thought it was all these stupid rules and, you know, you have to have a beard and you have to do all this stuff and you have to look weird and all this stuff. And they really, which was understandable that people found that appealing, because these were a lot of the younger Jews and these places where Jews were repressed. They really were eager to, you know, be part of the modern world. So that's for you understandable. But the problem with Zionism, I mean, there's a lot of problems with Zionism, but the central prohibition of Judaism is murder and violence. Judaism was a pacifistic religion. And so they understood as soon as you get a state and as soon as you get an army, the only way to do that is to overturn the most basic, the most basic law of Judaism. So you actually kind of had to get rid of the religion entirely. And so a lot of people said that, yeah, we are like Catholic or we're like, you know, Episcopalians or whatever.

18:40We're just, you know, we're Americans, we're of a Jewish religion or just like you can say, like, I'm an American Catholic or an American Muslim. But that was, you know, that was, that was actually quite a conservative response. And in the book, I do one of the things I liked about learning about it is that there were also, I always knew the left left wing responses to Zionism and to, you know, the pro Palestine left. Actually, there's a pro Palestine right and there's a, there's a Jewish anti-Sionist right wing as well that make it. They come out of the same place, which is that Zionism is bad, but they come at it from very different reasons. Do you want to, you want to elaborate on that a little bit? Well, so I mean, so if you're an American nationalist, basically, you don't have to be a crazy American nationalist, but you know, you basically, you are American and you want to stay American. You see that Zionism is setting up a thing which they're doing now, by the way, very active,

19:44which is that basically you are sort of temporarily in America, but you're not really there. Your actual homeland is 10,000 miles away or else. And this was something that was very appealing to anti-Semites as well, because they always said, well, Jews are just this fifth column. They're not really like us. And Zionists definitely laid up on that by saying, like, you're not safe here. This is what they're doing now. I mean, I'm in New York now and people are whipping up fears of anti-Semitism. And I'm here. The idea that a Jews are unsafe and Manhattan is so crazy, but people really believe it, because a lot of us, including me, were brought up with the sense of, okay, it feels okay now. You're good, but that's what they thought in Germany too. My grandfather was a German refugee from Nazi Germany. So they thought, well, you never know. And so you have to support Israel, because if stuff goes wrong here, then plan B.

20:48Plan B. And so that's also very appealing to people. But the anti-Semites always said, listen, like, you're not safe in Palestine either. Nobody's safe forever everywhere. We don't live in utopia. We live in history where things come and go. And in fact, in Jewish history, I've a lot of times, it's gone very well as it is now. I mean, the US is not an anti-Semitic country. And for people to say. Despite what we're being told in the news every single day, I'm still walking down the street. What's the psychology of that? I live in New York. I have a Columbia alumni card. So I got out to campus, even though it was locked down during the protests on the lawn. I'm walking there, and I've told the story here on the show before. There was a Jewish woman, a young woman with her rabbi, and she was convulsed in tears. It was very upset. And I looked around to see what had provoked this.

21:48And there was just the encampment, which was very sleepy. I mean, literally, the kids were inside the tents, the tents were closed. They were sleeping. There was nothing going on, no chanting, no walking around, no marching, nothing. It couldn't have been more boring. I was really disappointed, trying to report on it. And I was looking around, and I was like, and she's like, how could they think this? How could they be like this? In other words, it was the idea of anti-Israel pro-Palestine protest, picapias, Palestinian flags that just had her in hysterics. And I thought it's all in her mind. I was just like, what is the psychology there? Well, I mean, it's a really unmovable psychology in a lot of ways for certain people. I mean, I was brought up with a little bit of it. I didn't grow up in a really, I always emphasized. I didn't grow up in a super-synast environment at all.

22:49I grew up in a pretty normal American middle class world, where we were taught about anti-Semitism, but I also grew up in the US South. My parents grew up under Jim Crow. We learned all about that stuff too. We learned all about feminism, the women's suffrage movement. We learned about all these movements, and I think that we were taught, I was taught, I thought I was taught. The moral of the story is, don't discriminate against people. Take people as they are, and this is bad for Jews. Yeah, sure, it's bad for everybody else too. Let's not do this. But I think a lot of people that grew up in really strictly Jewish environments, where they really didn't know other people, I didn't go to school. I went to normal schools. I didn't go to school with just Jews. But the over emphasis on the Holocaust, and I think that we should learn about the Holocaust, obviously, I think we should learn about slavery. I think we should learn about the genocide of the Native Americans.

23:49I don't think that anybody has this exclusive thing, like, you know, they're on oppression, but a lot of people who grow up in those Jewish environments, they are so brutalized, really, into believing to themselves to be victims. And you say, wait a minute, you've been suburb in New Jersey, you're okay. The Holocaust did not happen in Santa Monica, California, or wherever you're from. But they can't get out of that, and it's really a prison. I think Zionism is a kind of prison for Jewish people. They can't step aside and say, wait, wait, I am walking down a hundred and sixteenth street or wherever you are. You know, and that's exactly it. Yeah. And like, somehow I'm Jewish and still like going to go to CVS and buy some toothpaste or whatever I was doing that day. They can't, but like, I do understand it because I have this Holocaust back here on myself. And there is a sense of.

24:51Okay. Let's see. We'll hopefully. Finally, the idea. We've been looking for that. All right. We'll talk. Well, we'll be back. We'll be back. Oh, there you go. Can you hear me? Yes. You're good. Sorry. I've got a phone call on my other phone. Oh, no worries. It happens. Sorry about that. No, but so I do understand that psychology. But I think the question is always like, what? Is what you're being told true? So I had to do a lot of my book, at least the beginning is like, what did? What was I told in my background? That turned out to be not true. And it's actually quite a lot. And I, it's really quite upsetting to think that, that like the people like my parents, who again, my parents are not fanatic. Not all they never even set foot in Israel, you know? There weren't like those people that were, I mean, there were people like that.

25:54Like if you're Jewish, like you know those like Israel fanatic people, but they weren't like that. And they're actually quite liberal people. But they did sort of, you know, they kind of back of their head. They always had this idea of like, what if it happens again? So yeah, it's well, I don't like, it's somebody who's Native American and African American have both. We don't, we never really got that capability of using either genocide or slavery as a justification for anything. And the idea of using it now, people will look at you like you're insane. And yeah, for a white. Is that what it is? Of course it is. I mean, I think it is in this country. I think that like Zionism, if you look back, a lot of what becomes real toxic identity politics in this country, it actually originates with Zionism and certain. Because if you look at the history of Black or you know, Native American struggle, just to take two, you know,

26:56I'm sorry, Black people weren't given the option to kind of melt into the melting pot. Right? No. And and we were. But like, I think that a lot of what I thought of as Holocaust education, right? Like I thought about like, this is good. It's good to learn about this. Was actually a kind of way of allowing Jews to be victims in a way that we really weren't. Because actually like if you look at, if you look at income and education and all that stuff, Jews are the very, very top of the whole American. Dale and have been for at least two or three generations. So, you know, where is this oppression? But we all have this memory of oppression that is actually very recent. You know, my grandfather was a, as I said, was a refugee from from Nazi Germany. So it's not that far away. So it's not crazy to me. But I think what the anti-Sinus were always saying, they were saying it and all these different voices was, this is just going, this can't work. It's going to be a total disaster here are the reasons.

27:58So I try my book to give as many of those reasons as I can. Well, it has been a disaster. I mean, it just be clear. This idea of this victimhood thing, I, what is taking place in Israel currently is I would argue destroy that. No, but not for some people, not for some people. That's the thing. So like I grew up, the way I grew up and I think, I mean, I don't know, I'm sure other people have this too, you know, it's from different backgrounds. I don't know if you had this as a born Native American person going up, but like I was really taught to think of myself as lucky. To think of myself as despite all this stuff, you have to do certain things. You can't, you have to represent certain things like you can't bring Jews into disrepute, certain behaviors such as things that anti-Semites, associate with Jews, you know, like especially money stuff, you know, like you have to be as honest as you can. You have to be and you can't and the other one was a system, you know, you can't,

29:02you can't complain like you're lucky in America and you should be on the side of trying to help other people who are actually. But like if I had started whining about like I'm being repressed because I'm walking across the campus of Columbia, like I can just see my grandmother whooping my ass. Like she would have been so embarrassed. She was like, you think you're in Nazi Germany? What the hell are you talking about? Like this would have been so undignified. And I think that like the sense of dignity has gone missing from a lot of the ways that a lot of Jewish people now. Um, are interacting with society and you see it in the ways I think of social media, you just see that like Zionism is sort of a, it's almost a mental illness. Like people who are inside of Zionism, like they really, they're either inside of Zionism because they're actually bad people and they're really legitimately racist or a lot of them are just, they're really. They're traumatized, but it's not their trauma, you know, it's someone else's trauma. And that's the part that's really hard for me to accept.

30:05Let me skip ahead a little bit. I mean, now we have three and I want to go back to Israel itself as an apartheid state or the grief against it as an apartheid state. We now have really existing Zionism, right? Three quarters of a century. We have a nation state. We have the experiment. We see how it's gone. I mean, obviously it's hard to predict the future, but at this point, it looks like Israel has a, at least in the foreseeable future, is going to be really isolated, right? I mean, support in this country is just running out like the tide. You know, young people have turned against it. Voters of both parties have turned against it. I mean, it's not hard to imagine in 10, 15 years that, you know, our relationship, the US relationship with Israel is not going to be anything close to what it is now. Politically, I think it'll be unsustainable for either party. I mean, what happens then if I'm right? And Israel becomes basically like, you know, it's a city state in the middle of the Middle East.

31:06It's just, you know, it's all by its loan. So I mean, does it continue? Is it able to continue somehow or I mean, what's the mean for any, or is there any, also, is there any reckoning about, you know, what happened in Gaza and what is going on now? Well, also in Gaza still, but also in the West Bank and now Lebanon and Syria and all that. Everywhere. I mean, because it's not just a city state that's just sitting there, mining it to a business, right? It's a city state that has been bombing and murdering people in enormous, almost unthinkable scale. Because, you know, we see a little corner of what's happened in Gaza. We say that we'll corner if it's happened in Lebanon, like Syria. No, I don't think I think it's very much, it's a completely unsustainable project. I think that 10 or 15 years is probably generous. I think that they know that. This is Matt Rogers from Los Cultures. This is with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Los Cultures. This is Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. Okay. We've been talking about Cupid male for a minute now, Bowen. Wow.

32:06The feedback we're getting. I mean, so many of y'all love this stuff. You're stopping us in the street going, I love Cupid. And if you're thinking, wait, what is Cupid? Do you not have the internet? It's the OG Japanese mayonnaise. The one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle. Once you know what, you start seeing it everywhere. People ask what makes it different from basic mayo? Will the answer egg yolks? Cupid is made with egg yolks only, giving it this incredibly rich umami flavor that elevates everything. Burgers, fries, sandwiches, chicken, noodles, chefs use it, restaurants use it. People who really love food and flavor use it. Whatever you're eating, Cupid. So if you haven't tried Cupid yet, find the bottle with the red cap and see what everyone's talking about. You'll understand Cupid, the original Japanese mayonnaise. That's why they're just trying to create as much mayhem as they can. But I think that for Gizli analogy, but it reminds me of like, you know, 1944,

33:08when the Nazis knew they weren't going to lose and they were like, we've got to kill as many Jews as we can before we go out of business. Or in my book, I think the better analogy in this case is a part of South Africa. So, you know, Ronnie Castles, who's this great struggle hero who spent 27 years in exile fighting for for for South Africa. He says, don't forget apartheid was never as violent. Because this is a thing like once you get, you know, well, so apartheid actually starts, I mean, officially there's all sorts of, you know, racial, or ascent, if you want to call it that before 1948 in South Africa, which is the year of the state of Israel. It's also the year of the official beginning of apartheid as an official policy. And, you know, it for a long time, you know, even in the 80s, they thought that they could sustain apartheid because South Africa was actually very rich economically and it was very strong militarily in large part because of its collaboration with Israel. You know, they got the nuclear bomb from Israel. They were they supported each other.

34:09They had the same basic view of the neighbors, but that way. And then, you know, something goes wrong economically. That's basically what happened and militarily. And I mean, Israel is in a very bad position. I very much hope that it can be that Zionism can be destroyed and that and that a state equality and non-racial state can be established there. But, you know, we're not, I mean, I don't make predictions about it. I just think from history, you know, these regimes don't survive. Historically, Rhodesia didn't survive. Algeria didn't survive. South Africa didn't survive. Nazi Germany didn't survive. You know, Serbia, Milosevic didn't survive. There's no Rwanda, you know, the, the, the, the Houtouz and Rwanda didn't survive. So, I mean, there's just a very low chance historically that you can get away with something. Would it be consequences?

35:11Because I, because I have a lot of time. I have to be honest with you. I don't know how the state collapses without, let me answer this. Do you think that the state collapses without America's fort meeting? I think America is going to go through hard times at some point, meaning whether it's economic, but this military, I don't think we can maintain the way that we've been engaging. But that also means that Israel and the billions that we get, the weapons that they get in order to continue this kind of military expedition. I'm curious from you take it just as an aside. A conversation that's often had whether it's, whether Israel is the dog on a leash or whether Israel is controlling America in this case. What do you follow in this? I'm just as a side you've done research into Israel and everything else. I think it's, I really, I mean, I'm shocked by what Israel gets. There's no other country in the world that would get away with this and get away with this interfering in American elections with nishing American politicians,

36:17with interfering in our media, you know, buying up TikTok, buying up now CBS and Paramount and all this explicitly for the purpose of protecting Israel. You know, if China did that or even if France did that, you know, if an ally country that nobody's really afraid of or England did that, people would freak out. But no, I think Israel controls a lot. And there is no question about it. And this is one of the things when we're talking about anti-Semitism is, like how do you react when there's an anti-Semitic theory, you know, like the Jews control the media? And then you have Larry Ellison saying, I'm buying TikTok, but protect Israel. You don't even, it's, it's, it's, it's what do you even, I don't even talk about that without, you know, falling into anti-Semitism? I think that's a great example. Well, that's actually really, I mean, I'm obsessed with that actually because I think it's a big shift because that was like three weeks ago, two weeks ago. And you see the reverse, surprising effect, which even a month ago, people were getting canceled.

37:23People like me, it's changed. And now it's a shoe is on the other foot. And they're not going to, they've been used to bullying us and pushing us around and smearing us as racists and smearing us as whatever. That I think that there's not really a lot of muscle memory among scientists for, really, I'm in consequences because you say consequences, but like they haven't had any. So as you know, like if you've ever raised a child or a dog, you know, if you let them, if you let them do stuff, they'll do it. And so I think that that's going to, there's going to be a real price tag. And, you know, I think the anti-sign has been warning of this for more than a century. And nobody listened. I think, yeah, I mean, you say this in the book explicitly. I couldn't agree more. It's like, it was people, clearheaded people, Jewish people saw this 150 years ago. The natural, this was the logical outcome of this philosophy.

38:24We have a question from a viewer under, from under, our twish of two to who grew up in South Africa and under under apartheid visited the occupied West Bank. In size, really, apartheid was far worse. Have you been to Israel? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think? Yeah. Well, I'll tell you something that I think is the origin of this book. I was in Hebron, which is in the West Bank, which is an ancient city. And I was allowed to walk down a street, literally a walk down a street because of my quote, quote, race, and because of my foreign, you know, good passport, right? Like I have an American passport so I can kind of come where I want to go. And you're there was, and I was guarded by people, these soldiers, Israeli, quote, unquote, Israeli soldiers. And I talked to them. And you know, even though I've lived abroad for a long time, I still speak English. And I can tell them people are from like, you know, Brooklyn or California. And I was like, and these are the quote unquote indigenous people who have come there.

39:27I'm allowed to walk down the street. No, I grew up, as I said, I grew up in Texas, you know, I mean, I know I wasn't there for Jim Crow, but it wasn't that far away. You know, like when I, when I learned about Martin Luther King, I said it felt like the middle ages that like black people couldn't go to the movie theater or something. And it's just like, that was really weird. But like, I remember, you know, I still talked to my parents about it. Like it was really like that was just the reality of their society. And it felt so disgusting to have that. And then I went to South Africa for this book. I mean, it just feels physically like, I don't want to be in a place where like the actual inhabitants of the city are not allowed to walk down the street because they're of the wrong race. That just doesn't, that just earns my stomach. But then I went to South Africa to interview Ronnie Castles for this book. And he said, oh, he said, the Africa was never as bad as. And that's what, you know, you quote Archbishop Tutu, but Nelson Mandela said the same thing all over Tambos said the same thing.

40:27I mean, there was never like a black city in South Africa that looked like Gaza. They just basically wanted to keep black people down to clean their toilets, you know, to mine their diamonds, but they weren't actually murdering them. I mean, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that was post-apartied that Archbishop Tutu also led, they determined that about 8,000 people have been killed under the 50 years of a part, almost 50 years of a part. This is Matt Rogers from Los Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Los Culturistas, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. Okay, we've been talking about Cupid male for a minute now, Bowen. Wow, the feedback we're getting. I mean, so many of you all love this stuff. You're stopping us in the street going, I love Cupid. And if you're thinking, wait, what is Cupid? Do you not have the internet? It's the OG Japanese mayonnaise. The one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle. Once you know what, you start seeing it everywhere. People ask what makes it different from basic mayo? Will the answer egg yolks?

41:27Cupid is made with egg yolks only, giving it this incredibly rich umami flavor that elevates everything. Burgers, fries, sandwiches, chicken, noodles, chefs use it, restaurants use it, people who really love food and flavor use it, whatever you're eating, Cupid. So if you haven't tried Cupid yet, find the bottle with the red cap and see what everyone's talking about. You'll understand Cupid, the original Japanese mayonnaise. Now, like Israel reached 8,000 deaths in Gaza within a couple of weeks. So Israel's the mass killing machine of Israel is it's on a much more terrifying scale than even that. I mean, there's just there's really nothing that compares to it. How would you even get them out of that mindset? I mean, like to put it in perspective, Israeli soldiers, rape the man on TV, yeah, the audience 60% said that should be okay.

42:31And even when there were protests in Israel, where, I was like, not many people, you got like a million people on the street. They were there because they wanted their hostages back, not because he cared about what Nanyahu was doing from standpoint of the murder and mass killings of all of the people that were effectively they are putting them in camps. Like they put it for the written things too. Yeah, which is kind of my point, a population like that. How do you retrain? How do you? And I just add to that. I mean, it's also, I mean, to what extent, how isolated is the information space within Israel? I mean, given the fact that first of all, you know, they're the only people in the world who speak this resurrected, formerly dead language. And the media is carefully controlled, right? So that you know, most Israelis are not really getting a sense of how they're perceived. No, no, they know exactly. Oh, really? Okay. Exactly. First of all, they have the same phone you and I have. They do speak for the list.

43:33It's the beginning of their day. Yeah, they're from the New Zealand Hebrew. Well, some of a lot of them are from New York, obviously, but like, yeah, but you know, but they're not, they're not in North Korea. I mean, that's one of the weird things about it. Israel and if you look at the polling, you know, you have like something like 82% of the population supports the genocide. So like, what do you do with those people? I honestly, at this point, I don't really care what I care is what you do at the Palestinians and how do you stop the killing of the Palestinians and how do you save them? Because I think they're doing it. I mean, we've been doing it, but they're doing it. They're doing it. And we got our pay and it's, it's, it's so like they have to live with themselves ultimately. And I, but I think that Palestinians also have to live with them. And when you say like how many people, it's only seven million Jews and something like 500,000 Israeli Jews have been directly involved in it. Either soldiers or a support staff or something, the where they've actually, you know, they're not just looking at their phone. They're actually doing it.

44:34So I don't know. I just want to, my concern now is really with the Palestinians. Down and how do we, how do we stop the bombs falling as Jews and also as Americans and as citizens of these lots of countries, not just Americans who have helped this. And I don't have the answer. Well, stopping the bombs all in is easy. Stop giving them money, stop giving them weapons, stop supporting them in the United Nations, stop, etc, etc. I mean, that's happened. Economic isolation. Yeah. Well, that's happening. I mean, that's going to happen. They can buy their way out of everything they want. You see what they've done. I mean, here we are in rumble, but like there's all these platforms now that are not controlled by scientists, people. And they're growing and growing and the people don't trust the mainstream media. And it's not just, I mean, there's lots of reasons people don't trust the New York Times and all these other places. But a lot of people are treated by the way as an author. I mean, you have, you're with a major publisher.

45:34You know, is it hard to get publicity? It's get interviews from mainstream media outlets. It's hard to get fair interviews. It's hard to get fair attention. It's hard to get out of what I write about in the book, which is the speed rules. But you have to say, do you support Hamas? No, I don't support Hamas. Do you do this? Do you do that? To actually get to the moral and ethical and intellectual core of my book, which is the question of like, why are Jews against this? Should more Jews be against this? They'll go quite far out of their way to question your intellectual credentials to smear you. I mean, I've gotten a lot of smears, you know, I'm anti-stamined. I'm a Nazi. I'm a self-hitting Jew. I mean, it's, you see in the book, like this vocabulary is so consistent that it's like, they've been saying all the way back. Yeah. Oh, like they have, they haven't had a new thought in years. All they do, every once in a while, they get a new like, you know, they hire a new PR agency. But basically, they've gone on and on, mirroring people,

46:36Nann Golden, who you know, the book ends with the famous photographer. You know, I mean, she is like, you know, just quite small, you know, now older woman, who is a photographer. And the things they say about her, I mean, it's just, you can't imagine the hatred that they were Jews who protested it. I mean, not to mention Palestinians who are hardly even human for them. Hardly even matter at all. It's, oh, yeah. So, I mean, it's, we're in the same media environment, but I think they don't understand how much it's shifted and how much of an audience there are for. I mean, I don't know how many people are watching here today, or, you know, after it's online, but, but there's a massive, you look at the, just any YouTube thing about Palestine, you have hundreds of thousands of people watching. I suspect this will do well. Yeah, for sure. Let's hope. It's shared and thing is a really good indication of that. Like, I don't know if you saw recently, he came out, gave this scripted apology.

47:38Oh my God. We're trying at the end of the show. You know, it was so pathetic. It was, it was that German word, Freundschommen, you know, where you feel each other. Yeah. Freundschommen, where you're afraid you feel you're afraid for someone who's making somebody else's self. Yeah. It was, well, there's a, I was going to do it. I was going to do another, I was going to do another foreign expression, which is in Spanish. They say you don't have any blood in your face, which means like you're so shameless that you don't blush. Oh, I don't know. Oh my God. That is good. Like you have no fucking shame. And that's, I felt like that guy. I was like, you have no blood in your face. You are coming out here and you're still giving this thing. I think that like if he had sincerely apologized and he had said, listen, like, I am a performing artist and I rely on people like Robert Kraft. I'm really embarrassed that I caved into this pressure. And I apologize for your Palestine. I've been a hero.

48:39But like, but you know, I mean, so I, what I always want to say is that, like I, I have an evolution that I love out in this book. I'm not giving anyone a purity test. Like a lot of people have made mistakes, including me. And I've written things and said things that I'm totally mortified by. I meant it well, but I still meant I still thought that this is something about Zionism or Israel that could be saved. And I don't think that anymore. So I, but if other people haven't gotten there yet, I don't want to believe them and say they're stupid or they're racist or all this other stuff that people say. I just want like if someone can read my book and they're like, 40% skeptical about Israel and Zionism. And I'm getting like 46%. Then I feel like, okay, you know, I feel like I've at least not betrayed what I think of as my moral obligation. And that seems like a great place to leave it. Thank you so much for coming on and for writing this amazing book.

49:41It was a real pleasure to read it and it was a pleasure of speaking to you. Thanks so much for having me on. Eddie Tassel-Wirman, man, thank you for this. This is Matt Rogers from Lost Culture East. That's with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. This is Bowen Yang from Lost Culture East. It's Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang. Okay. We've been talking about Cupid male for a minute now, Bowen. Wow. The feedback we're getting. I mean, so many of you all love this stuff. You're stopping us in the street going, I love Cupid. And if you're thinking, wait, what is Cupid? Do you not have the internet? It's the OG Japanese mayonnaise. The one with the red cap and the little baby on the bottle. Once you know what, you start seeing it everywhere. People ask what makes it different from basic mayo? Will the answer egg yolks? Cupid is made with egg yolks only giving it this incredibly rich umami flavor that elevates everything. Burgers, fries, sandwiches, chicken, noodles, chefs use it, restaurants use it, people who really love food and flavor use it. Whatever you're eating, Cupid.

50:42So if you haven't tried Cupid yet, find the bottle with the red cap and see what everyone's talking about. You'll understand Cupid, the original Japanese mayonnaise. All right. Thanks very much. Take care. All right. All right. So that was Ben Moser. I will for people who were joined, who joined us in the middle of it. I would encourage you to go back and watch the interview from the beginning. He's the author of Why this World? A biography of Clarice Lyspector, but more importantly, right now, the author of the book we're just talking about. Anti-Zionism, a Jewish history. And he's, you know, he's a smarty pants. He won the Pulitzer Prize. I'm jealous. I was only a finalist. So anyway, yeah, I thought, I thought, I mean, I knew this is going to be good. And it was. Yeah. That's fascinating. We had to get Robert Shapiro on. Robert, um, Robert Shapiro is in a similar vein where he makes the argument. I don't know if Shapiro wrote the book on it, but he goes into this notion of anti-Zionism,

51:43Zionism and how Zionism hates Judaism. And as, yeah, which is so perverse. It's an, I mean, Zionism is an apostasy of Judaism. It's anti-Jewish. It's really, you know, I mean, it really is, it's political movement. And the argument that is usually made is, I mean, because they always reject him like the study of Torah, right? In favor of like, let's, let's set up our own ethno state where we can be the bad writers. Yes. Yeah. It became that. No, I think it was awesome. I think it was awesome. Yes. I mean, here in Dr. JT, he answered questions. He was, he didn't see what it was. There was no sonalisms. Yeah. No, no. No, no. No, no. It's amazing. So you come on, you ask a question and he gives you an answer. You could agree with the idea. I disagree with it. But you know what? It's an answer. And that's the interview. And like, hey, it's the sun hot. Yes. Like, whoa, it's fucking hot.

52:45Yeah. No, he's great. He's great. I would have him back any time. Sure. One thing I would love to ask, you know, either him or some other anti-synast rabbi. And this is from a, a criminal's Christian aspect to a, to a Jew. How do we break the power of Zionism and dispensationalism in the Christian church? Because that's the shield that Israel had. In the US. Yeah, for now. But you heard what he said. I mean, he kind of agreed with me that, you know, the, you know, it's, things aren't looking good for the team Israel these days. And it doesn't, it's not, you know, this relationship's not going to last. That's one of it. Dispensationalism. He said, I mean, part of it. It's sensational. It's just so I'm, I want to make sure we're on the same. Robbie. So what dispensationalism is, so there's two different pillars of it. One is that they believe that God works in different dispensations of time.

53:46So think about the chapters in the book. And one chapter God works one way, another chapter, he works another way, then another chapter works no way. It's basically, it's like he's playing five D chess. He's not consistent with what is it with what is the ask to do? The one thing that the dispensationalist teach though is that Jews, another children of Abraham, but Jews specifically are always to chosen people of God. So if God changes my based on what chapter the book that you're in, why does this one footnote with this ashrie always go right on through? That doesn't make any sense, especially since the Bible over and over and over again. Says, I, the Lord, I got I changed not. He never changes. And so for me, I'm a Baptist. I believe that they're, you're saved by faith. Faith and what? Faith that I will be redeemed. I'm a sinner. I'm fallen. How do I get my sins forgiven by asking for forgiveness? Ethnicity doesn't play into it. My race doesn't matter. No, if you go through, if you read the Pauline Gospels, no, he was a Pharisee.

54:48He, you know, he studied under the chief rabbi of the time at the temple in gladriel is that I counted all as dumb. My, my religion promised me nothing. My race promised me nothing. We're all one in Christ. And so the thing is, I hate to interrupt this, but we have 10 minutes left in the show. We have a heart out at 10 o'clock and we do have to hit two topics. So okay, bye, bye. Okay. Sorry about that. That's probably that was very rude of me. We break down that way. Couldn't be helped. Okay. So let's get to it. US tax pairs have already blown $44 billion or more, more really to go after Iran with Israel. We're sending $3 billion more of your money to Israel for bombs. Now the Wall Street Journal says that Trump wants to send $5 billion more to the Gulf States, who last time I checked were not poor people in order to repair the infrastructure that got destroyed by the Iranians because we attacked Iran.

55:49I mean, I can see the case. I can see the argument here. I mean, after all, it's like, Hey, the reason that their shit got blown up is our fault. I mean, that's kind of true on the other hand. Okay, go. They made, they made their agreements. They made their bet with the US. They chose Fetoni to defend. Meaning they made all these choices and the idea to Donald Trump is talking about sending billions when he claimed that Saudi Arabia was spending a trillion dollars in the United States. Okay. If they're spending that much money in the US, just tell them to keep $5 billion of it. Repair their infrastructure. Why do we need to send them away? No, they made their bet and they chose the work with the US. They chose the ex-America to go after Yemen. They chose the stuff. Obama didn't go to Saudi Arabia and said, Hey, would you like to buy a bomb Yemen? Saudi Arabia came to Obama and said, we would like to bomb Yemen. Obama might have given them the green light, but Saudi Arabia is the one that chose to

56:49do it. Saudi Arabia has been running. I'm not going to call it a genocide, even though I call it a genocide, a light operation in Yemen for the last 10 years. They made their bets. Why are we paying for the bet that they made tomorrow? Effect on the midterms, right? I mean, this just seems like just another brick in the wall for the Republicans, where it's like another story about how everything, the prices are going up, incomes are going down and we're sending taxpayer money, not to help Americans, but to help people who could well afford to take care of themselves. A head-chapping dictator. Right. Yeah, it seems like a whole lot of bullshit. OK, PW Walker, 1360, thanks for the $5 Canadian. Ellison used the US government to force the sale of TikTok to him. So it's worse than just their purchase itself. And $10 very much. Thank you very much from Tulio Ponte Colony. Biden has literally stated that he's a scientist on video multiple times.

57:51Vanderland says that they follow the principles of the Talmud. How do we remove these psychopaths? Well, Biden is no more, but Trump is just as bad. Yeah, all of them are horrible. I mean, like keep it. I don't know if he saw. By the way, do you agree with what I just said? Because you can say, did JTF think you're out of your mind? I think the US is pushing it. No, I think you're, you can, look, I was, no, you're, look, you're right. It's like they climbed into bed. I mean, look, they did the stupidest thing that you can possibly do. Instead of making nice with their next door neighbors, they went and ended up sucking, sucking foreign cock from the other side of the planet from another hemisphere. And then they're surprised that like, you know, they're getting their ass kicked for a, in return, it's like the Ukrainians, right? Like you should, the Ukrainians job one, if you're the president of Ukraine, is to make nice with Russia because it's a big, powerful, culturally similar next door neighbor with hundreds of miles of common border. You know, I mean, similarly, if you're cutter, job one is to make friends

58:52with all of your neighbors, including Iran. And if you choose not to do that, and Iran controls the critical Gulf of poor booze that you need in order to get your shit in and out of unless you're flying, then like, you know, that's on you. You get your, you went, you basically went to war as a vassal state of Israel and the US. And yeah, you lost for it. And I mean, I mean, I, I'm thinking from the point of view of the US, you know, fattony sometimes needs to say, okay, okay, I'll take care of you because you did this for me. But, but, you know, but yeah. It's all about fattony these days. And let's see, we see, oh, Richie says, I've had Robbie's playlist on auto play for at least 24 hours. I'm going to put that up here. That's on YouTube. Go to West Glacier gaming. Do the same thing. Go to playlist and play Robbie's longest playlist. It's over and over. We, he needs that.

59:54It's important to us. And thanks for joining us in all that. If you missed the Ben Moser interview, I recommend that you go back and check it out. TMI coming up in five minutes. But we do have time to talk about yellow rose. So fertilizer is, you know, it's partly an oil buy product. And the, there's been, if the price of it's been going way up, farmers are getting their assets kicked financially here in the US due to the war, due to inflation, due to oil prices, blah, blah, blah. So Trump said, Oh, don't worry. I have a solution. Even though I've declared a trade war with the Canadians and the Canadians, I push them off to become associate members of the EU. And I have giant tariffs against them. And so, you know, your fertilizer costs are going to the roof where you normally source it from Canada. Don't worry. I've got you back. I've talked to Alexander Lukashenko of the president of yellow. And he's got your back.

1:00:55He's, he's, he's shipping that sweet, sweet, bill of russian potash all the way across Europe and across the Atlantic Ocean to the great United States of America. And you will now have cheap fertilizer. The problem is they, someone talked to Lukashenko and he's like, I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. We don't have, we barely have enough for ourselves. We ain't exporting nothing to no one. So I don't know. I thought this was very droll. You know, it's like, it's just another, it's just another ridiculous story. Right? I mean, it's just, it's, I mean, Trump just makes shit up. And then people discover that they're being lied to. I don't think it's a, you know, I mean, they, they know, they know instantaneously. Farmers are very smart people. They have to be in order to stay in business. I mean, what, I know the president is troubling. He's truble losing his mind. I mean, what is this about? And not to mention, Pilar Rousse is literally in a, in a national union with the Russian

1:01:57federation. It's literally like this, right? I mean, there's no way they're sending anything to the United States without checking with blood. And blood would, they don't need to check with blood because blood say no. I mean, it's just of Gerbos. It's, Gerbos know, the last days of 1944, Gerbos, to not sure you've seen it, it's famous. It's kind of the bagged bag Bob of his day. So don't worry, we have, we have panzer divisions waiting to intercept the, the Russian hordes on the Eastern border. We're going to be fine. It's coming in. Trump is looking at the economic numbers. Trump does not have to repuls and spreadsheets. And so he sees what the read at all. And so he knows what, he knows a number of, you can't go into the death way that he did without understanding of what the red number of good black number bad, right? So he understands that we are heading for a really rude awakening. And he's like, don't worry. Evan's fine. Your housing crisis should be going up. That's okay.

1:02:57That's the third. We love the inflation. Yeah. Quote. Ever. If out of the Democrats, I'd have that on loop. Look, look at Wall Street is doing so well. Which is true. But that's what Trump is looking at. I mean, the guy, he is the Joseph Gerbos of our day. Well, I think they may be looking at a war to get us out of it. More in. We're in to them. I mean, were you in a war war? Like I give an example, right now, EU or the NATO countries have put out a propaganda film trying to get white Europeans ready to die at the hands of Russians. It's not like Europe is geared up for it. Russia has geared up for it from the standpoint of legislative. I mean, Russian political policy, the Duma, many, many people may not have paid attention to it. That effectively points out that if they're Russian citizens anywhere that are being aligned in particular way, Putin has the legal authority to go and get those citizens looking at you, Estonia. Like meaning they are gearing up for this. Russia is not playing with this. They have hundreds of thousands of men in weight with new military kit and hardware and everything else in preparation for a larger war with Europe.

1:03:59That Europe seems to be doing everything in their power to provoke. Will the US get involved or will the US just look at it as here's a business opportunity? Good question. We'll bring us out of our eyes. That doesn't for today, by the way, just a clarification about something that came up yesterday. The YouTube's really are $5, $10, $20. The higher sums that were cited were if you pick the tax-free option, so it sort of automatically adjusts. But if you just use your, if you do this through your phone, I think it ends up costing more than if you do it through like a desktop iOS or, you know, whatever. So, so do it through, you know, if you don't want to pay that higher, I don't know, I will, I'll have, I'll have Robbie come on to explain this, but we've got to go. Okay, we'll see you guys tomorrow, two hour show, 9 to 11 a.m. tomorrow morning, Eastern time, looking forward to it. See you then. Bye, everyone. Bye, Jesse. Ciao. Bye.