6506 Three Toddlers Angry MOM! CALL IN SHOW

0:00nice to chat with you. We've got a public call going on here, so don't forget to stay off names and places. And do you want to start off by reading a message? Do you want to just tell me what's going on? I'm eager and happy to help. Yes, how about I start by reading a message that I tend to? Good. I am a state-owned mom of three small kids, and I struggle with feeling stressed. Stress manifests itself in a jaw tension and neck tension, resulting in headaches during days where all kids cling to me and their needs appear endless. I've been clenching my jaw at night at least since teenage years. When in hindsight, life was not stress-little. Please help me find the dynamics and stress factors behind all this, so I do not pass this habit down to my own kids as it has been passed down from my mother to me. Yes, that's a message. I was kind of half and half about mentioning this, but of course you say you've got three young kids and you're kind of stressed. Obviously, this is nothing to do with you and Lindsay Clancy, but the thought, trust my mind, is like, I wish she'd called as well.

1:00But I don't know if you've been following that court case or anything like that, but it's some tragic stuff. All right. Okay, so tell me a little bit about your life, your marriage, and we'll sort of get the current stuff before we go into the childhood stuff. If that's all right. Sounds good. All right. I'm all ears. So, okay. I'm a mom of three. I mean, my mid-30s, my oldest son is turning four here soon, so he's still three, but about to be four. I have two years and three months old one and a nine month old daughter. I'm stayed home. I'm staying home with the kids. I was working all the way until I gave birth to our first child. And I married. We have a, as I say, we have a good marriage. We're financially stable and I have nothing to worry about,

2:03but I've been planting my jaw at night since I'm a teenager. So, yeah, I don't quite know. I'm seeing all these therapists. I've seen someone for like pelvic floor management or as a pelvic floor, physios, therapists that have seen someone with my jaw. I've seen them. I went to massages, but somehow it feels like it's symptoms, symptom management and not getting to the root cause of it, of this. So. Yeah, I mean, if it's any consolation, I'm a bit of a clincher too. So, I know a little bit of, I have to wear these night guards and blah, blah, blah. So, okay. All right. All right. So, I'm obviously. I remember, I was, yes, sorry. You go ahead. I remember I was a teenager in my high school years and we had these mandatory or we had these checkups with the dentist, with a school. And I remember I went in, I must like, I was, I don't know, maybe 15, 16 or so. Now I went in and yeah, my teeth checked and the only thing he said is like,

3:05you should stop chewing gum because you can see the, like that, you're chewing so hard that you can see the, I don't know, the footprints of your teeth on each other because you're chewing so hard. And I thought, huh, that's kind of weird because of course I, not of course, I did chew gum but I wasn't such a frequent chewer and I was like, okay, I guess chewing gum is really, really, really bad thing. And I didn't connect the dots until maybe 10 years later when I was at a different dentist. I was at that dentist that we had. I was with him for like 10 years or 20 years, I don't know, but somewhere in my 20s, I changed dentists. And then I went in for my yearly checkup and then he said, oh wow, you're clenching your teeth at night, like it's, you're really grinding, you should have a night guard. And I'm like, watch, I thought it was, I remember around Calmedonian till then and it was, yeah, for my teenage years. So, and then I ever since then I have a night guard.

4:05But it's just, it's getting out of hand, like I wake up with a headache because, and like my neck is just in so much pain, I can barely move my neck at days and sometimes I can barely chew in the morning. That gets, it's just very painful. And I know you're a philosopher, but maybe you can help me uncover what's going on. And just this morning I asked my mom how long she had had her night guards. And she says it's been, ever since she was 40 years old. Yeah. Which is, I believe about the time when I, or when she started working again. But we're both, when people see me, they always say, oh, you talk so fast and you're always, you're always moving. I am this kind of, you know, high energy person. I'm always on the guard. I, do you have told me before that I'm, I walk like a stick? No, it's a, that's a big and exaggerated, but I'm very upright. Wait, you walk like a stick? What does, what does it mean? No, I, I'm rigid like a star, like I,

5:07I'm very upright. Yeah, maybe that's a better way to put it. I think it's also a tight into my personality somehow, but, or somewhat, but it's certainly like, no, when you're, when you're sporty and you're always on the run and you have a lot of energy, you shouldn't be like, I don't think that tight into clenching your jaw at night. Right. For clenching your teeth at night. I just, sorry, just funny, a funny memory just sort of popped into my head that after I left the other school, I directed and produced a play that I'd written and I cast a young man in a role and he was so stiff on stage, he was a good actor, but he was just so stiff on stage. And I remember trying to get him to loosen his neck. So we used to do the sort of move the head like you lie on your back and you move the, the head of the actor around to get him to sort of loosen up the neck. So you look more natural on stage and I tried lifting up his head and his entire body came up like a plank. It was so tense. So yeah, I know I've sort of seen that kind of stuff as well.

6:08So yeah, sorry, please go ahead. Yeah, I don't think I'm quite very at spot. I am very tense and I've had some different kinds of pro like and then after my first son was born, I had really bad allergies and I wanted in and had my blood test son or when they put some allergens on your arms and then they figure out which ones you're really allergic to because I had these bright eyes to throw up all my skin and it was just terrible. I felt like I couldn't eat anything in more because I was so allergic to so much food. And I was just, I was caught off guard. I'm not that allergic to stuff like it. Yeah. But then I, you know, then they wanted to do all these procedures with the doctor and then I was like, and at one point I was like, okay, good, cut it off, cut it off. Like I'm not, I don't want to spend thousands on this outlet. Like it must be mental and then I saw different therapists

7:09and at one point I found someone that where it, he asked the right questions and I think with the books that I've been reading it, I kind of healed myself. I can't quite say what it was that was blocking me but I got it off my chair. I'm sorry, I have a baby here. Oh, don't worry about it. I love baby sounds. No problem with that. Don't feel so cautious about that at all. It's always great to hear the next generation. So go ahead. Yeah. So he helped me but I didn't contact him again because at the end I was like, I wasn't so convinced with his methods anymore and I felt like it felt very repetitive at some point. So yeah, I'm not sure he's the best source to going about this at the moment. And but I know it's something that's, that I should get off my chest. Maybe it's something from way before because it's not like it started happening after the third child. It's just, you have one daughter and I get tied into, I'm just opening a lot of boxes here.

8:10I hope that's okay. Go go go. You have one daughter and I have three kids. One sometimes, no, I listen to your shows that you've, you know, you've aired like 15 years ago. I always scour for parenting advices and you get very good advices but it's sometimes a bit different women with three kids, you know. I can give you an example. Absolutely. I hope. So there's so much chaos on things like that. I was, yes, should I. I made a soup for lunch with, I don't know, some chicken in there and everything and my three almost four year old sitting at the table. There's, he has a big ball in front of him. He's like, mama, I want to drink the soup and I said, can you please spoon it because once you start drinking and dear to your old brother, he's also going to start drinking it. And then he's like, okay. And I can see that he doesn't really get it. He's like, I told him he's going to spill. Like, I don't see this going well. We go about eating him and at one point I clean up the baby. And then here he goes. He starts drinking the soup. He's very brother, that's the same. But the younger brother,

9:11have the content lands on his head. So he drops the ball. So they're soup everywhere. And then my, and then the older one gets up and he's like, mama, I'm all done. And then he runs off. So the younger one also gets up and runs through the soup. So there's like footsteps of soup all around the house. And I'm just, how I just spend so an eternity cleaning this entire mess. And of course my boys come back to me and say, mama, can you please rule this book for me? Mama, can you do this? Mama, I need to, I need to be, I need to pull mama, change my diaper. It's just, I feel like I'm constantly on it. And I would like for them to be a bit more independent. But I don't know, I don't know how to get there. Sometimes I'm just like, can't, can't you see? I'm, I'm cleaning up. I am not going to read a book for you. I want to clean first. I want to clean up the kitchen or it's, it's just lots of things that stress me out or them, the big boys having a conflict to a men and breastfeeding. And I don't want to get up, get up and in a mean while I have the baby on my breast

10:12that it's just, it feels like it's stressful, right? You have three very small kids, two of them still in diapers. I hope the middle one will get out the diaper this year, but it's just, they're not so independent yet. And it's just three kids where you're constantly doing manual labor, you're constantly wiping bombs, taking shoes on, taking shoes off. And I'm trying to encourage, I'm trying to tell the old is how, can you help your little brother put a shoes on? Ah, hey, you can do this yourself. How about I put your left sock on and you try with your right sock? But it's just, it's so constant and maybe that's what's going on. And I feel like I'm drowning, I'm just there, there in neighbor, the entire time, like trying to get them to do stuff themselves, but somehow I just end up doing so much. And it's just, maybe that's what's, what's, that's the, it's just feel stressful this entire situation. Sorry, what do you mean by enabler?

11:12I'm, I'm just, I'm not, I'm not disagreeing with you. I just not show how you're using the word. Yes, I, I'm using the word. The example being, you know, I, I say, hey, you could, he's coming to me, the, the, the, the oldest one's coming to me and saying, please put my shoes on and I tell him, hey, but do you know how to put your own shoes on? I don't, you're, you're almost four and he's like, no mama. And then I, and then I end up putting one on and he puts on the other where he could put on both. It would be no problem whatsoever. So feels like I, I end up doing work, I end up doing more work than I should. So I'm, I don't know, I'm, I'm very enabler. The enabler is probably not the right term, but I, I, well, it's easier, like it's easier. It's easier in the chaos of three kids under five. It's easier in that chaos to just put his shoes on, rather than try and get him to do it himself, right? Exactly, exactly, but I, I do negotiate. I don't, you know, I, I really try and we've gotten far by him saying mama, when I'm four, I will not have you put my

12:15shoes on. Like, I'm getting places. So I, I don't sit there and do all their stuff for them, right? I try to get them involved, but sometimes I feel like whenever they do it, of course, it takes them three times as long as I, I did it, but then I end up doing all the work because no, hanging up laundry, they help me. There's so much chaos and then they, and then they find these rituals that like then they find a bucket with stuffing it and then they start playing with a bucket and then, or, and then start playing with a folder because we have some folders in the room where we hang up laundry and then next door, there's a printer. So like, I start them and was like, Hey, let's go hang up laundry because I want them to help. I don't want to stew all the work, but I end up having folders all over the floor and they're, they're printing paper and it's just so messy. Even though they know, right? They know and I tell them, Hey, I know this is, this is very, it's very nice and it does, it's, it's, it's a very cool thing. This printer, but please don't, please don't, because in the end, I will have to be the one to pick up all the mess and somehow

13:17it just ends up happening anyway. So he knows, he knows you're talking trash about him. He's complaining. Mama, mama, but you have three kids under five. What are you expecting? Anyway, all right. So tell me a little bit about your mindset during the day and and how things are going for you, intellectually or emotionally. I think this is, can you please narrow it down a bit more? Otherwise, I, I'll get lost with that question. I think. No, no problem. So yeah, just give me the kind of thoughts that are going on over the course of the day with your kids, because obviously I, I, I don't get it in the way that you get it. I mean, I worked in a daycare where I had 20 kids, but you know, it's not the same as being at home with them. So I get all of that. And as you point out, I have one child. So that, that has its strengths and its weaknesses, at least your children can play with each other. But with my child, of course, every time she wanted to play, it would be me or her mother. And so there's, there's additional challenges with one child.

14:19And again, I'm not comparing the two like ones harder or tougher, but there are, it's not like one third is easy with one child. But so yeah, tell me the kind of thoughts that you're having over the course of the day that's going on with your kids. Okay. I'm currently very burned out, I would say. I would like to play with them less and have them play together more. So I'm a bit annoyed when we're done with breakfast. And the first thing they do is run into the, the dining room and go get the books, get books and come to me at the table where I'm still feeding the baby. And tell me, Mama, read for me, read this book for me. So I'm a bit annoyed. Yeah. I would, yes. There's all these and then you know, sometimes I end up reading for not sometimes. So we read a lot. There like a lot, a lot, a lot. I just went to the library and got 18 books and I do that about every two weeks.

15:22So I read a lot to them. Um, and then I end up taking a book one comes with a book and then he sits on my lap and then the other one comes and brings another book or starts like turning the pages of the book. I'm reading and then they end up fighting and I'm just, and then the book, the baby crawls to this chaos of the three of us and starts crying because she wants to be picked up and wants to be part of the game. And I'm not even reading anymore, right? It's, it's really hard. It feels like it's really hard to have a routine and a peaceful day. I do have them, but the only way I have them is by saying, Hey, let's go out. We go to this local farm and we look at all the animals. We play it on the playground or we have a play day with someone. Then it feels like I can have two of them off the bigger ones off my back and I can choose to interact with them, but they kind of see the other stuff happening. So I end up going out every single day, morning and afternoon or full day trips. And I would like to spend a bit more time at home because I don't want to sleep at home

16:25that we have because I get at home. I don't need to be out, but if I don't entertain them or go out with them, I'm just stressed because they're fighting or I ask them because they're, you know, they're like writing the bicycle or the pedal tractor, the tractor that you can sit on and pedal to go forward. So I ask them, Hey, you know, I'm cringing up. Ten you go out, you can go out and the ride the tractor and they're like, no, mama, you need to, you need to look while I do it. You need to, do you need to watch me? Or they go out and start in seconds later, both of them are back inside. Yeah, I just, I kind of wish I was, I'm just here waiting for them to mature so they can play a bit more together, even though I'm going to manage fights. I will still be managing fights, but at least they'll be playing together. And they are sometimes, but I feel like they always need you there. I always, yeah, I always play with them.

17:27I always need to be there. I always need to interact. I say, oh, it's very nice. And then it's like, I'm going to look how high I'm jumping on the trampoline. And then to be like, oh, it's very high. Good job. Good job. Yeah, it's just, I feel like I'm always on. I can't ever sit there like the, my public floor physiotherapist, senior record. And I know it's just taking math and duties exercises when you're at the playground and the kids are playing. And I'm, there's just, there's thinking, wait, that's that you don't or success to where I go to the playground and the kids play. And I can do my exercises. It's very rare unless we have a play day, even when you go to playground, they, there's a bit more in the time to play, but I couldn't drink them out and start doing exercise. I'd get interrupted every minute or every two minutes. It's, it's just very, it's very constant. Right. And sorry, just to remind me, run, run through the ages, you've got a baby and then the two elders. Two and almost four. So two and three.

18:27Two and three. And how do you want to have your eight gap between them? I'm sorry. I have one and a half year age gap. So when the, all this was one and a half, I got the middle one and then one and a half years later, I had the baby. Okay. And how old is the baby almost three and those three. And how old is the baby? And nine months now. So the oldest is almost four. So yeah, okay, got it. And the two eldest are boys. Yes. And then the youngest is a girl. Yeah. Yeah. Haven't helped you. Sorry. Haven't helped you. Got two boys who are under four. Okay. All right. All right. All right. So you have really compressed having kids, which you know, it's fine. Obviously, but tell me why you've had, you know, and it's not a negative in any way. She performed, but tell me what the decision making process was to have the kids very close together. Yeah. Well, the first and the second were planned with the close age gap because the

19:32first was he is a handful. He's very smart, but requires a lot of intellectual inputs and certainly it's a lot of stimulation. And we've had a call about two weeks ago about the, let's call it financial decision. And we can get my son to your daughter and it's very similar. Um, yeah, like he's, uh, he's, teaching himself how to, how to write, uh, we taught him letters and now he's just taking off by teaching himself how to write. And, um, we, but when he was less than one years old, we, uh, yeah, we decided to have a second because we saw it. They'd be nice and then it was so chaotic. This too, on the two is so chaotic. Like your breastfeeding while you're holding hands because your oldest one is, um, is walking up and downstairs or is trying to climb something. There's no, there's just no peace or your, you're changing a baby and then he's, he's, he sees something and he's running off and I'm like, Oh my God. Okay. I run my knee to baby and I'll run after him because I can't, yeah,

20:36I, I can't have him disappear. Um, lots of these situations and then, um, we were in the street of it. And then it was, uh, the third one, um, was, uh, the result of a broken condom. Yeah. Um, we did want more kids, but, um, at that time, I, about a month before I got pregnant with our third, um, I told my husband, if I get pregnant now, I would shoot myself. So it was a really hard decision to keep the baby, but, uh, I think it's even harder to have an abortion. So we ended up having the baby, but I knew this was going to be the, the hardest thing I ever do in my life. Um, yeah. So that's why we have these age gaps. The first one that, that's the older ones being very close is planned. But then I was like, Oh my God, this is so hard. The third one is not going to be that close and then, uh, it's ends up a month closer, uh, in age to the second time.

21:38And what's your support system? What's your community like? Um, I have two girlfriends, uh, in the very close by, just a, a small bicycle right away that, uh, I see a lot that I do a lot of tight dates with. I see them, I don't know, two, three times a week. And they're so close that, you know, when I've had a bad night, I can just bring the doorbell and, uh, say, I've had a bad night. Then they open and they're all in pajamas. So it's, um, it's very nice. They have similar age kids. Um, my husband wakes up with me, I would say. And then she goes to work. So we all wake up around seven and, uh, he goes to work around nine. I would say so we had breakfast together and then from seven to seven or eight in the evening, um, by myself or with, you know, with the kids. My mother, my parents are both still working, but my mother has started taking both kids one day a week, even though I'm not working.

22:40She's just doing that. So she can spend some time with them. Um, yeah, and that's about the family support I have. My, my husband is, uh, not local and his family lives, uh, in another country. So whenever they visit, we get some support about that's, uh, I don't know, to, is that this is maybe two, three times a year and so does his mom and, yeah, they're, they're a bit older. So there may be a lot of reports and then they also read without someone there here, but just for a handful of days. Okay. So you're, um, from seven in the morning until eight at night, you're with the kids. Uh, yes. Yes. And I'm by myself with them from like nine to seven, let's say, from nine. Sorry, I'm not sure what that means. From nine in the morning, I'm, I am with all of, I'm the only caretaker from nine, nine a.m. all the way to seven p.m. I would say seven or eight. Sorry. Why, why is your husband gone so long?

23:41It's not a criticism. I'm just trying to understand their family setup. Um, why is he gone so long? He commutes the work and it takes him 20 minutes by bicycle. And then he has lunch and it's, it's just how he's a, he's a night owl. So he prefers sometimes he only leaves at nine thirty. Um, he leaves a bit later in the morning, but he comes home late because it takes him some time to get into the grind. It's just how his work is. His meetings are mostly in the morning, but he just ends up working a bit later. In my country, there's that, this is a bit more of the work culture, I guess. Also, he likes his work. That's why it's all OK, but hang on, hang on a second. I mean, bro, you know, you're up with three kids. Does it have to be home quite a bit as much as possible? On the weekends, he is fully home and so no, no, no, I understand on the weekends. He doesn't work. I get that. I'm talking about weekdays because that's a long time to be with three toddlers and a baby. Two toddlers and a baby.

24:43Yeah, that is true. It is a long time. It does feel like a long time. That's why it took me so long to, to eliminate the naps of the older boys. I have them nothing until they're recently because and they would push their bedtime back to 10 o'clock or even later, but then I get a little bit of a break during midday. Otherwise, I have no break and then it's just, it's really hard. OK. So again, I'm not trying to throw your husband under the bus. I'm just really trying to understand this. That he's gone for what 11 or 12 hours a day and on the weekends. And 9 until, yeah, 9 to 7. So 10 days, sorry, 10 hours, let's say 10 hours gone, 10 hours out of those nine would be off his hours because the rest is commute. OK, got it. And it take away maybe an hour of lunch time. I don't think it's, it's, it's not extremes, I would say. Or at least in my culture, it is not. So does he know, he doesn't work 9 to 5. Is that right?

25:43Correct. Correct. So his hours are what? His hours would be 9 30 or 10 to 6 30, 6 30 or 7. OK, so 9 30 or 10 till 6 30 or 7. OK, got it, got it, got it. And you said, but you said he sometimes works, well, often will work kind of later or beyond his regular hours. Yeah, then he runs his own company or he has a partner and they run a business. So then you would, you would come home, he would help with the kids and then he would sometimes go back to work after that in his at home on his computer. Oh, so he would go back to work in the evening? Sometimes, yes, how often? I don't know, less often, but it depends twice a week, I'd say. OK, got it, got it.

26:45OK, so roughly how many hours a week is he away from home? Like, it sounds like quite a few. And you said on the weekends, he doesn't really work and he's present for the kids, which is great. But yeah, just give me a rough sort of calculation. I'd say, yeah, he's, let's say he's gone 10 hours. Um, five days a week or four days a week, he's gone 10 hours. And then one day, no, hang on, sorry, but you also have to include the time he works at the evenings because that's time times that you're not getting adult interaction because that counts as well. Even if the kids are asleep. So he needs much less sleep than I do. So we do interact, even if he goes back to work, but the interactions are a lot shorter, obviously. No, so that's what I mean. I'm talking about time to duck it from the family, which includes sort of evening stuff. Includes evenings thus. Yeah, well, let's say twice a week.

27:45He, I'm sorry, this is going to be noisy. There's a truck coming. No, don't worry about it. Don't worry about it at all. No problem. So let's say four days a week, he's gone 10 hours and then two days, two, so that's 40 hours. And then two nights a week, it's an extra two hours on a computer. So we're at 42 hours and then one day, um, he is gone from, but he leaves a bit later. Maybe he's gone from 10 to 10, so 12 hours because on one day, the week he has, he's in a sports club. Well, he joined that sports club for training. He said what? He said, he's in a sports club. I'm sorry. I hope it's not too noisy. No, no, I'm not. It's not that I didn't hear you. I'm just a little bit surprised that so sorry, just for the 40 hours and then you are saying two nights a week, he's only an hour. So that's 42 hours. And then another 12 hours, some work, some sports club, and that puts us at 56 hours that he's away.

28:53Yes. I would say so, yes. And what sport does he play? He's on a swimming team. He's on a swimming team. And what is the purpose of the swimming team? Is he competing for money or prizes or what does that mean? No, it's to, I don't know, increase, increase his personal happiness. So I and I see him, right? We're both my husband and me come from our, are, are used to doing a lot of sports. Pre-kits and he says, and I can do it if he does no sports. If he doesn't get to practice at least once a week where you like gets, he really gets his pulse up and does the, yeah, that's some high intensity sports. Then he struggles sleeping. Yeah. Okay. Sorry. He picked this up about a year ago because, yeah, he was really struggling. And he doesn't do any business travel. Is that right? Or he doesn't do any travel that way. No, no, no, basically none, basically none.

29:54Okay. Got it. All right. So, you know, 56 hours a week, it's just you and how you said he's good on the weekends as far as spending time with Yeah. Family kicks are very good. And I usually, I'm by the time it's Friday, I'm so kids out that I really enjoy when, yeah, when I, when I tell him, I will do all the work in the house. Just get, get the kids off my back. Go, go to playgrounds with them. We spent some family time, but I usually need at least half a day of just me doing laundry, cleaning up, preparing, preparing for the week ahead, doing it. Like doing some stuff where there's no kids. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. And he's good. It's good at that. Now that the baby started crawling, you can take the baby to before that it was a bit hard for him. Also because the baby was purely breastfed and now she's starting solid.

30:54So, yeah, it's a bit easier to have her away. Got it. Okay. Okay. So tell me a little bit about you mentioned to your mother, but not your father. Yeah. My father is also still working 100%. So my mother has scaled back to working four days a week. So she can take the grandkids one day. Yeah, my father's not very involved with the grandkids. Well, you said they're in, was it they who were in another country? No, they're in the same country. They live close to us, I would say. Okay. And so your mother, sorry, it reminds me of your mother's involvement? She takes the boys one day a week. Okay. Got it. So she takes the middle one and the older one one day a week. Sure. Yeah. I get that. Okay. All right. And your father, you said, is not involved? No. And do you know what?

31:54Yes. Yes. Well, he was never involved when I was a child either. Like I didn't have a relationship with him until I was a teenager. Because he also runs a business. And now you're going to say, oh, copy paste. No, no, no, just your husband is involved when he's home. So it's different from your father, right? Yes, yes, yes. But my dad is also like he's running a business, has employees. And it's a reason we never saw him. He only came down for a meal times and then went back to the office. Or he only came. Yeah, he only came for a meal times. And then he was back at the office and he didn't really have a connection with us or a relationship with us. And so we were teenagers and yeah, and then we were suddenly a bit more interesting to him. Okay. And so my dad, he thought very interested in the grandkids either. And he keeps telling my mom that she's doing too much for me. And I'm not even working and why why should why should. Yeah. He's questioning my mom taking my two, my middle and my older son one day a week, where I don't work.

33:01And he's, yeah, he thinks I'm she's doing too much work for me. Like you just lacing around at home while children crawl in the middle distance. Okay, got it unfair and fair. Okay. But of course, he's never really spent any time trying to deal with little children. So he doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground as far as this stuff goes, right? Correct. But still he is there giving me advice, not advice, but having having opinions on stuff I do and saying, oh, you should be doing this. And I'm like, have you read a single parent in book? Things have changed a lot. So I sometimes I just say nothing. And sometimes I give a little, a comment back that doesn't sit so well with him either. But we don't have conflict. So he just, I can see that he disagrees. And he thinks I should be much more strict with my kids and I entertain them way too much. And what sort of advice does your father give you? Um, while he says a little beatings never heard anyone.

34:05Oh, wait, hang on. Sorry, sorry. I mean, your father is not mentally challenged, right? So when he says beatings never hurt anyone that is actually the entire point of beatings, right? Is to hurt people. Yeah. I mean, yeah, what? He doesn't say it that way, blah blah. But he says that no one ever died from or that he certainly didn't, uh, it didn't hurt him to be disciplined. Um, and it didn't hurt us to be disciplined either. And the, that lean is just just, oh, sorry, I'm sorry. That's our oldest son is just basically, uh, we call it dancing on, on, on our nose. And uh, is constantly asking for entertainment and my dad is just there looking at the circus and like, why, why do you do all this? Like, you just tell him, no, you just tell him, no, and you, you're just strict about it. But you just keep, keep reading, keep playing with them, keep doing stuff for them. Um, yeah, and I see it.

35:06And it's, yeah, and I would like and, and I kind of, I'm currently on this, I currently have this project of trying to stay home on the board. And because it's good for the kids to be bored. But it's just hard for me to sit through the, through the chaos, through the noise, through the, uh, the mess they create. So, uh, it was a few weeks ago where I told my parents that, now I'm on this, I, I understand that they should be bored more and it's good for their development. It's good for their creativity. Um, so I'm trying to stay home more and not leave the house every day. And the, and then the kids come to me and say they're bored and I'm like, oh, I want to try to find something to do. And I try to get over these waves of bored and, uh, with them without, without chaos erupting too much. Oh, that's interesting. Okay. So tell me a little bit about the theory that children should be bored. Um, I'm not disagreeing with you. I just want to make sure I understand you're thinking on this.

36:07I think when they're bored, they start playing with toys in a non-intended way. They start coming up with, uh, with new, they start coming up with new, uh, new ways to play with toys. They start, it's, they start their creativity. They, um, yeah, it's first their creativity. And I think it's good for them and it's good for my mental health to not be going from one playground to another because someone is bored. Um, and it doesn't hurt them to sit on the, when I tell them, oh, you're bored. But it's okay. You can sit on the bench. You can play with this little car. And if you're ready to come back, you can. And, uh, mostly it doesn't work. And then he's just hanging on my neck and, and crawling all over me. I'm talking about the oldest one that's almost four. He's crawling all over me and it's super annoying. I'm holding the baby. I'm, I'm doing something in it or I'm engaged with play with our middle one. And then he's coming and he's crawling all over me because he's bored. And he's like, mama, where are we going next?

37:08Um, and I'm like, no, we're not going anywhere. We're, we're staying here. We're playing here. This is our outing for the day. Um, we don't get to go all these other life places just because you're bored. And, uh, I want to point it just signs back into play. Um, but it comes in waste. And, but yeah, the oldest one is the only one that has these, uh, has this problem. The middle one and the younger one, they don't come cleaning to me saying they're bored. They just, they always find stuff to do. I can, uh, I can hear the resentment. Right. Why is he so difficult? Right. Okay. Got it. Okay. Yeah. Bakwade, we talked, um, we tried the conversation before and it's because he's, he's very smart and he just needs a lot of stimulation. He's very energetic. He's very social. Oh, it just comes, uh, it's just, uh, hard package. He's, uh, he's a pride. He's my pride. But, uh, it's, it's very difficult. It's very difficult. Okay.

38:08So you said, uh, it's not good for your mental health to be at playgrounds too much, right? Yes. I get bored too. Uh, and for me, it's like always packing everything up and going the next place. Well, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. Hang on. Yeah. I thought being bored is really good for you because it helps stimulate your creativity. Don't you get to daydream and think of wonderful news stories and ideas because being bored is bad for you, but good for your three-year-olds, is that right? Uh, no, no, it's not me, Dada. Like, I'm not saying I'm the one board. I'm only the one board if you go to the same playgrounds a million times. Right. Um, there's one thing they really like. You do get a bit of a contradiction though, right? Which is bored. Him is good for my kids, but I don't like it. I'm just pointing at him. I'm not trying to come down hard or anything like that. But you do understand, like my kids, boy, do they ever need to be bored? But I can't stand being bored. It's horrible. Yeah, well, you're at, uh,

39:10can I do something so far? Of course, I keep it totally wrong. So yeah, go for it. No, you're, you're of course right, but I'm in a playground that is not, it's not the time for me. It's not the time to be interesting for me, right? There's obstacles to climb. There's the sand pits and uh, I'm sorry, it just doesn't hold my interest. So if we always go there, it's just not so interesting for me. But for the kids, it shouldn't be like, uh, I don't know. I could go, I used to swim as well. So put me in the swimming pool every day at the same pool. And I'll always find it interesting. But the playground is just not so interesting for me. I think I'm gold. Sure. I mean, I mean, you're entirely right, of course. So tell me about what happens when the, when you go to the playground. I mean, you've got the baby. Baby is not doing much on the playground, I guess. So what happens at the playground? I sit the baby down in the sand pit and I usually sit close to the baby. Because the baby can, uh, yeah, there's, it can take a little time to eat some sand.

40:11Well, it just happens. A handful of sand a day keeps a doctor away of something like that. Oh, yeah, you build up that immune system for sure. Yeah. So I sit down the baby and then the middle one, you'd really like sand pits as well. So he usually joins us very soon in the sand pit. And the older one starts climbing around the little pigs. Um, but then he wants me to play hide and seek with him. He wants me to play catch with him. And it's just not something that our two-year-old can do yet. But he, he keeps coming to me and asking me to play with him. And I ask them, and I tell him, go play with your brother. Play hide and seek with their brother or, uh, go climb this tree or this, uh, this tower with your brother, which you could. But he's like, no, Mama, you want to do with you. Or he wants, or then he comes to me saying, um, please take on me when I come down the slide. And then it just resulted me always hip-carrying the baby while I entertain the toddlers. And it's, it's also not so good for my pelvic floor.

41:12Uh, that has a lot of tension. I struggle. The same thing with my jaw is, uh, with my pelvic floor that has a lot of tension hence I can't control. I can't, uh, contract it, control, uh, like, controllably contracted. I'm not sure how to say this in English. Yeah. Um, so my physiotherapist told me I shouldn't be caring, but baby, that much because it's just this weight that's always on my pelvic floor. Yeah. And then, and yet I end up baby carrying baby on my hip and, uh, chasing toddlers, helping them over obstacles. And it's, yeah. Um, so your question was, uh, to give you a rundown of what happened inside of playground. Uh, okay. So do you get the picture? Uh, I'm sorry. Yeah, I think I get the picture. So, and look, again, I'm not trying to compare our experiences, but, you know, when my daughter was little, we would take her friends. I would take her friends to the playground and, uh,

42:12play with, you know, three or four or five kids and manage them even when she was very little. So, uh, and, and the pool and so on. So again, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not every day. So I'm very, you know, but I've, I've had some experience with, with this. Okay. So, uh, if I got it right, you were saying to your two-year-old, you should go and climb a tree or something? Uh, no, they, they, my oldest one, uh, the almost four-year-old, he likes climbing trees. And then the two-year-old, of course, wants to climb the trees as well. So I help him, um, but not very far up. So it's all very safe, don't worry. Um, no, I tell my four-year-old to play with, with his brother, with his two-year-old plug brother, um, by climbing these climbing towers, uh, that are meant for kids that age. To, yeah, to play with his brother, at the more, and not just with me. Like, don't get me wrong. I do play with my kids, say, uh, we go to the swimming pool,

43:12because I really enjoy water. So I go with all three, three kids to the pool. Um, and, uh, we do play outside. Um, we, we play indoor, we, I help them build, build castles from Lego blocks and the, so, so we do play, but I would like some more independent play, because it's just like all I do is play with them. Play with them and do the household. I would like some more time where I get to six and I get to watch them play and sit with them with the baby and not just have the baby on my hips and chase toddlers around. Okay, so you had an expectation of parenting when you have three children under the age of four, and tell me about that expectation if you don't mind versus the reality of your day. Um, expectation is my two toddlers play together. Um, they, they build something that they have joined play in a sandwich, or I go to playground with many kids and they, they find someone to play with.

44:17Uh, and I don't always hit. So yes, they find someone to play with. They, they join other kids in play and they do so for more than five minutes. And reality is I hit carry a baby and I chased my toddlers. Or I chased mostly the oldest. Uh, the middle one is much better at doing stuff in the pantry or fun. He doesn't quite play with random kids, but he plays with kids he knows. Uh, the older one is good at, uh, or does some looking for other kids and playing with them. Um, some, but not very much. Okay, got it, got it. So your expectation, which is not to criticize it, I just want to make sure I understand the expectation. Your expectation is that your children would be a lot more independent or not needing you as much at the age of two and three. Correct. Okay. And have you looked that up? Have you, uh, looked up whether that is a reasonable expectation?

45:21I have not. No, no, because you told me hang on. You told me that your father should have looked up these parenting books. Do you remember? Yes. Do you remember young lady being upset with your father? Because he had, he had unreasonable expectations because he hadn't looked up the parenting books. I remember it quite clearly. Yes, I do. Okay, so, uh, why do you think you have an expectation, right? Yes. And is it reasonable for a two or three year old to initiate play with other children? Um, probably not. Probably not. Yeah. I mean, I would say definitely not. There. Definitely not. And again, I say this, you know, I mean, I, I think I understand where you're coming from and I, I completely understand the frustration. So I'm, you know, nothing negative about that. But in terms of development and playing with other children, in my view and I'm, you know,

46:26we can have had some experience with kids in, I had 30 kids, 25 to 30 kids, age five to 10 for many years as a daycare worker. Of course, I have my own daughter, um, who I homeschooled and, and was a stay at home, dad with and so on. And so as far, so the parallel play, right? So, so parallel play is kind of an important thing. Let's do around 18 months to about three years of age. So around 30 months, you know, a place next to other kids, sometimes place with them sharing is really tough. It's really tough. Now, yeah, because they, they want to grab their own thing and we can understand evolutionarily speaking. Children didn't want to share because resources were very scarce. And if you give your toys and food to another kid, you may end up with no toys and no food. And so on, right? Yes. So around sort of age three to four, they notice other children and they'll do a little bit of parallel

47:29play, you know, they'll both sit in the sand pit and, and dig roads and maybe the roads will join up, but they're not really interacting with, with the other kids. Now around sort of four to five to six, they will start with imaginative play, but more so with children that they know, you know, like I'll be the cop, you be the robber, you know, that kind of stuff, right? But it's more so, and of course, evolutionarily speaking, that makes sense as well because we didn't want our kids wondering off with some strange, some stranger's kids, right? I wouldn't be pretty, pretty bad. So asking or expecting them at the age of two and three, I know, I say three, I know it's almost four, but, but the other thing too is you said that you're eldest and I'm not saying the other ones aren't smart, but the intelligence of your eldest is very high, right? Yes, I think so. Okay, so have you ever played a sport like a tennis or some other sport where you're competing against

48:34someone else? No, some team sports and no, I'm not. Okay, sorry, go ahead. Like basketball towns, then yes. Okay, basketball. All right. Now, if you've ever played a sport which is a team sport like basketball or volleyball and so on, I'm a bit more familiar with actually a lot more familiar with volleyball, but I think I can make the basketball analogy. So in basketball, of course, you're dodging and you pass the ball so that someone can shoot. I'm sorry, that was my fault. No, my fault, something happened on my internet, so I just switched to a cell phone. Sorry, if that's okay, I'll just continue with the question if that's all right. Yes, yes, please. Yeah, so if you're playing basketball and you pass to someone and they don't catch the pass or they catch the pass and someone takes the ball from them or they catch the pass, shoot at the net and miss by five feet, that gets kind of frustrating, right? Yes. So your son is probably in the top one or two or three percent of intelligence.

49:36So what are the odds he's going to find some random kid that's going to match his creativity and intelligence and language skills? That's roughly his own age. Not very high. You're right. Yes. It came over and my daughter was was chattering and trying to make up games and so on and that kid I'm not kidding was taking stickers and putting them on her body. And okay, it was just like my daughter was like, well, what was the point of that? Some kids just staring off into space, putting stickers on her body. I mean, you can't you can't play with that. I mean, so it's great to have the intelligent kids and one of the challenges is that your intelligent kids are going to want to spend more time with you than with other kids in the same way that you'd want to rather you'd rather play basketball with people who knew what they were doing, right? Correct. Yes. Or if you've ever had those those dreaded words and schools, this is going to be a group project.

50:37And you're like, oh no, oh no, this means I get to do all of the work and everyone else gets to enjoy the fruits of my labors because you're just going to be better at that than other people. So asking particularly for very intelligent kids, very intelligent kids will have fewer peers they can play with and they want to play with older people like even older kids, right? So if your son's or his mom, he's almost four, he's going to want to play with six or seven year old kids. But six or seven year old kids don't really want to play with him. No prejudice, right? It's just that they don't imagine that he's going to have much to add. And this is whole thing but in childhood that younger kids are chasing around all the kids and all the kids are rolling their eyes and saying, well, why does he have to carve, you know, that kind of stuff? It's sort of a thing in society. So I think expecting peer play from your very intelligent three year old is it's inappropriate, I don't mean that like in a nagging way, but it's an inappropriate

51:39expectation. It's an unrealistic expectation, A because he's three or almost four and B because he's very smart. So there's just not going to be that many kids who're going to be able to keep up with him. Okay. All right. Yes. Looking you through it, looking at it through this lens, you're absolutely correct. And this doesn't, I'm not saying that this magically begs all the proffins go, hey, look at that. Your pelvic floor has repaired itself, but your joy stopped and clinging. I know that doesn't happen right away, but I guess my more immediate question is why not look this up, right? So if you have an expectation, oh, my three year old can do parallel, can go and play with other kids. I mean, especially with AI and things like that, you know, developmental milestones and so on. I'm sure you've looked up the developmental milestones, right? Yes. Yeah. Okay. So why not look up, is it an unrealistic expectation to expect my three year old to play with other children that would be something to look up, right? Yeah. Yeah, I see it. I see it. And I'm not, I'm really honestly not trying to nag you in any way, shape or form.

52:39I'm genuinely curious. You're a very intelligent young lady and you obviously care enormously about parenting, which is to your credit and just wonderful. But that's such an obvious thing to do that the reason you wouldn't do it would have something to do with emotions, I think. Yes. I should do with emotions. And I'm not sure what you're trying to say. But I'm thinking the reason I'm not doing it is because I, these two friends that I have with similar aged kids, they find, they're also, they're very intelligent women with very smart husbands, resulting in very intelligent kids. And these two oldest kids that are about the same age as mine, they are entertained by listening to stories, by, there's just more independent play there. Like they love drawing things on paper, they love figuring things out. And my, my boy's just, that's anti-energy meaning he doesn't want to sit for so long.

53:45He just wants to move. And yeah. Okay, so sorry. Let's talk about your friends' kids and that's a good benchmark to have because it's more than just theory. So tell me are they boys or girls? Boys, boys, boys. They're slightly older than my oldest. How much older? One is six months older and the other is nine months older. Yes, or they have stories to listen to. Not sure, yeah, these are audio books to listen to. That they just browse two books in a pair. Of course, they don't read them, read them, but they browse through books. There's just more independent play or they go to the sand pits and then they, they geek out and try to build a tunnel under something. And my boy's just, unless they are there, he doesn't do it. And these boys, they like, they find something they're really interested in and then they go dig deep into that one thing and geek out on that one thing.

54:46And my boy's just, he's always all hanging on my neck unless they are there. Okay, so is it fair? Is it a wrong way to put it to say that your boys have greater affection for you than your friends boys have for their mothers? In other words, they prefer spending time with you then with inanimate objects like sand pits and drawing and or even semi inanimate objects like an audio book. I would like to say that, but I'm not sure it's true. I would have to have my husband answer this. I don't think that's true. I don't think that's the case. Well, empirically and correct me if I'm wrong, of course, right? But empirically, if the children are gravitating towards you and want to interact with you and your friends' children are gravitating towards not interacting with their mothers, then that would be an empirical preference that would be clear, right? Yes. I guess the difference, I see that difference, but I think I explain it by saying that

55:57their boys, they both have two kids each and I have three. So their kids get the amount of attention that they need. So they're kind of, I don't know, mother bucket. The motherly attention bucket is already full by the time they leave the house and go to playground, whereas my boys need to share me with two more kids instead of just one more. So they maybe get less attention and less presence. My boys get less attention and less presence from me than these other boys get from their mothers. Okay. Got it. All right. So it's not the boys fault. They didn't obviously choose for you to get the broken condom baby, right? Correct. Okay. Got it. Now, those other boys though, the one that's six months older, the one that's nine months older, are they doing parallel play? In other words, they're both playing in the same environment or are they doing directly interactive play like I'll be the cop, you'd be the robber of

57:00that kind of thing. All directly interactive play. Okay. Got it. Okay. It is, I think, and it's generally the case that when a baby comes in, all the children regress a little. And so, yeah, so they would probably be acting. Yeah, you see that they act a little younger, right? When there's a baby around. All right. All right. All right. And your mother, when you were younger, how was she with, and how many siblings do you have if any? I have three. You have three siblings. Okay. And do you guys have an hour of age range as well? Hello. Was it wider? Two years, three years, two years. So big wider. Okay. Got it. And did your mother stay home? Yes. Full time. Okay. And how was she? Stress like I am is the short answer. Right. She was helping my dad start his business by doing his

58:04bookkeeping. She had, or my parents had a house. So there's a, there's just lawn mowing. She didn't have a big garden or just a tiny, tiny garden, but not, yeah, nothing, nothing worked talking about apart from like some flowers. But there was grass that needed to be mowed. And there's this stuff that need to be fixed. So my mother would, I don't recall her playing with us a lot, but she did have four kids and she had a lot on her plate. So she had these, I remember her hands were, I don't know, the student was so fragile that they were just like crack. And then she would bleed from her hands a lot to the point where she started wearing gloves. And I think that's also a stress indicator. And she had these terrible, terrible migraines that would just knock her out for two, three days. I think that's all stress related as well. So she was also stressed. And when she was peak stress, then we were chaotic doing kids things. She would resort to beating us.

59:09But it was always like it was, she was just out of control. It was just her lashing out and out of frustration, anger and lack of control. It was not very good. Oh, dear, you, you and I are heading for a little bit of a conflict. That's fine. That's fine. She was out of control. That's like it was like epilepsy. Is that your theory? No, it didn't matter if people were over. It didn't matter if you were out at them all. She just hauled off and beat her kids. No control at all. Like epilepsy. Yeah. She was not out of control. She indulged in being out of control because I bet you dollar-stodone, that's it didn't happen with other people around, right? Correct. Okay, so she was in perfect control. I see. Yeah, you know, you know this, right? I'm sure you've heard this ability times before. And so again, you've got a lot of excuses for your mother. And look, I'm not saying she doesn't deserve any excuses or anything like that. But it's like, well, she was stressed, but stress is to some degree a choice, to some degree, right? I mean, if

1:00:11yes, if you know, when I was doing a video from in the deep woods the other day and it was crashing through the undergrowth, yeah, I got a bit of a cortisol spike. That's kind of involuntary, but chronic stress around things you've chosen, which is to say have three or four children, chronic stress is largely a choice. And this is not to criticize anyone. I'm just saying that it doesn't happen to you. And you know, one of the men have the, we certainly have her own faults and so on. But one of the things that happens with women is you and your mother and, you know, billions of other women will make specific choices and then feel like victims, right? So you chose to have three children under the age of four. And you chose that. And, and I think that's wonderful. I get that we're talking about how there are elements of it that aren't wonderful, which I completely sympathize with. But your mother chose to have four children chose to stay home. And she got stressed. And to some degree, that's a choice. Stress is a choice, especially stress around

1:01:14things that you've made, right? So when I, when I quit my career as a software executive and I moved into podcasting, you know, there were times when it was pretty touch and go, right? In terms of like I got attacked by the media and donations went down and it's like, oh my gosh, what have I done? So, you know, there were things that are stressful, but these are all choices that I, that I made, right? I chose to talk about controversial topics. I chose to become a podcaster. Ah, blah, blah, blah, right? So chronic stress that are the result of life choices is a choice. And I'm not saying I have some big magic wand to take away the stress. But when you, you gave me sort of an impression and I could be wrong about this. So please correct me where I go Australia, of course. But you gave me the impression that your mom, you know, she was helping your dad as a bookkeeper. She had launched a mo, she had cracked hands, had to wear gloves and, you know, she just lost control. She was overstressed and she just was helpless in the face of her anger and beat her children. It's like she's a leaf in the wind here. Yes. Yes. And if you have that impression of

1:02:19your mother, how are you not going to have that impression of yourself? I see. So let's try that again. Sorry to be annoying. Let's try that again. But let's try it again and like tell me a little bit about your mother and her viewpoints, but without the victim stuff. My mother is an internal perfectionist and can't say no. So she ends up taking up all these. Oh boy, that didn't last very long. You think your kids are tough to manage? Oh my gosh. What did you just do? I started to be excused. Oh fantastic. That's magnificent. Hey, you get a prize of this bunch. It's the beginning of the month, but you still get the prize. Okay, without excuses. My mother can't say no. It's physically impossible. Oh, it's great. No, listen, I do it too. Like so please understand, I'm not, I'm not trying to

1:03:23throw anything down a big well at you. Like I do it too. And you've heard this a million times where I say to people, you know, don't laugh about things that are sad and then they see something sad and laugh about it like right after or whatever. But this is good news. This is fantastic news that this is the ingrained narrative about your mother. She's an internal perfectionist. I'm not sure what internal means there, but she's a perfectionist and she can't say no. So perfectionism is a choice. Yes. And there's nobody who can't say no unless they're completely mute. Then they can hand sign it, right? And she sure as hell said no to the continuing comfort of her children if she beat them. Beating children is kind of saying no, isn't it? Yes, absolutely. So she can say no just to her children, right? Okay, so let's try again. Come on, let's, let's, let's gear it up again. Let's reset the chat and give me your mother and her life a little bit

1:04:23as a mother. And again, we'll aim for no excuses. Let me set up a straight. Let's see if I can get this right. Now you'll pay attention. Oh, no, now I have to go and automatic. Okay, yeah. And again, we all do it. So go go for it. It's really hard. It's really hard. Without excuses. I'll just repeat what you said. Maybe you'll help me. No, that's cheating. Don't use my notes. That's cheating. Go ahead. Hopefully I'll use the, I'll use it as a slide to get into it. Okay, it's good as a warm up. Yeah. Yeah. So she's a perfectionist. She can't say no. No, sorry, she's not a perfectionist. She chose perfectionism. Yes. It's not hard and she can't choose anything, right? Yeah. She chose a popular. Sorry. And sorry, the reason I'm saying is that she beat her children for what I assume is normal childhood activities like being loud and saying

1:05:24no and disagreeing and all this kind of stuff, right? So she said no to her children and she beat her children and so on. And so we can't say children's innate behavior. They are 100% responsible before and should be punished. And my mother was a perfectionist and that excuses things because your mother was in her 30s or 40s or whatever it was. And so she chose perfectionism. If perfect perfectionism is just her nature, it's beyond her free will is beyond her control. Then she has no right to beat her children for their natures. Does that make sense? So if the children are beating because they do bad things or make bad choices, then you can't claim that your mother just is a perfectionist. That's her nature because children were being beaten. A child's nature is much more vivid and automatic at the age of three or four or five or six or 10 or 15 than a fully grown adults is. So your mother chose to pursue perfectionism. Your mother chose

1:06:27not to challenge her own perfectionism. So if you're going to say perfectionism is my mother's nature, which is I'm sure her excuse, then she can't beat her children. You can't beat children for their nature and then say, well, it's just my nature could be a perfectionist because that's hypocritical, right? Yes. Again. Sorry to be annoying. I really apologize. I said so annoying. I'm so sorry. So go ahead. All right. She chose to be perfectionist. She didn't want to say no to things. To something she would say absolutely she said no to her children by beating them. No, you can't do that. No, you shouldn't do that. No, you mustn't do that. Yeah. She didn't want to control her emotions. I feel like sometimes she used that to scare us. Sometimes she, she's a teacher still and it was a recent episode where she talked about this

1:07:30class that came in and it was completely chaotic. They were just not doing what they were supposed to and then she blew up on them and then after that they were really falling into step. She was kind of proud of it. So she chooses to her outburstive emotions are for her a tool to use to get people to fall in line or to. Yeah. Yes. I mean, if a husband intimidated his wife and got her to obey, we would call him abusive or a bully, wouldn't we? Yes, absolutely. And it's much worse to threaten and intimidate children who you have complete control and power over than it is an adult who can tell you to f off and she can go elsewhere, right? Okay. So she's, I mean, I'm not saying she's only a bully, but if you intimidate people in order to get them to obey rather than reasoning with them or trying to understand them, then that person

1:08:30would be acting as a bully if I understand this correctly in that situation. Okay. So, so, okay. Okay. We're listing negative traits here. I never said that. I said to give me your experience of your mother without excuses. I never said the listing negative traits. Nice try. Nice try to slide the words into my mouth, but go ahead. Just kidding. Because I'm saying you have something positive and I guess I thought we were okay. She has a, she's very responsible. Meaning she picks up the slack of other people. She's, she's great at playing with kids with small kids. I can see it in my own children. I don't have a memory of her. Sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt and I'm not disagreeing with you with regards to your children, but if I remember rightly, you said that your mother didn't play with you guys very much when you were short. Correct. I don't have the memory, but I call, I talk to one of my siblings and my, what are my siblings? How has that memory of,

1:09:35and I don't, I just don't. Okay. She may, may have been more selected player or something like that, but okay. So, she's very responsible and I'm not disagreeing with that, but that's kind of a generic term. I don't know what it means specifically. So, what does that mean specifically? Um, she's, uh, to give you examples, well, when we meet up, or when I meet up with my mother, she, oh, okay. So, we went on a vacation with my mother. Maybe that's a better example. And she's really good at, um, parallel thinking of all the things that I need to bring. And she does, um, she's, she's very active. So, she will not, you'll not, if we go a place, you'll not sit, see her sit down at a cafe and like order her coffee while I take the kids jackets off, take your kids shoes off or whatever, whatever, maybe that needs to be done. So, she's always helping. She's always thinking

1:10:37what else. Well, but that might be a perfectionist thing. And let's just back up for sex. You said you went on vacation with your mother and she told you what to pack? No, no, no, we're, you know, we're at the Airbnb or at the hotel and we go out for, I don't know, to see, to see some local attraction. And she's helping me pick up the, like, I'm here collecting the clothes of the kids and she's already on it. Like she sees what I'm doing. And she's like, okay, I haven't packed any food or any, any, any diapers or so. She's paralleling, trying to run, do this, getting ready parallel without me having to tell her what to do. Got it. Okay. And that's definitely a plus. Yeah, sorry. I misunderstood. So I appreciate that clarification. So, go ahead. Yeah. Um, she's, she's high energy. I feel like she, she doesn't sit down and be like, okay, now I need a break. She's always, but maybe that's tied into her being a perfectionist.

1:11:38She's also sorry, a lack of ability to relax or a diminished ability to relax can also be anxiety or stress or attention. Yes. Things are not quite perfect. So there's always something to do. So you can't just put your feet up. Yes. Yes. Yeah. That's my mother to a T. Okay. Yeah. So I would say that's not necessarily high energy. That's probably high stress or high anxiety or high tension. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Without going further, it feels like it is driving and describing myself here. No, no, it's just a coincidence. What are you talking about? Just crazy coincidence. You know, have some people can just win the lottery twice at a row. It's just exactly like that. No patterns. What are you? What are you crazy? Now you're just hallucinating. I'm just kidding. Oh, gosh. Okay. Okay. We're describing my mother. Let me see. Your mother. Yes. Your mother. Okay. Got it.

1:12:41Did she love being a mother? Yes. No. Yes, you did. No, don't even try. You can't beat children and say that you love being a mother. You can't be anxious the whole time. You can't be controlling. You can't be bullying children and say, I love being a mother. I'm sorry. Like, maybe you can. I can't conceive. Right? It's like saying, I beat my wife and I absolutely love my wife. I love being a husband and I beat my wife. I mean, would that make sense to you? Again, maybe I miss something. Absolutely not. But yeah, yeah, maybe she didn't. Well, what was the indication that she loved being a mother? And I'm not saying the wrongs any. And again, I could be missing. We just talked for the first time and I'm trying to sort of grab the big picture here. So correct me if I'm a stray. But I can't go with beating and love. But again, so what was it that you saw that she loved about being a mother? She likes having many kids around her.

1:13:44She's she learns a very different profession. But after we were all in school, me and my siblings, she started, she wanted to become a teacher because she loved kids. And I remember all these summer vacation school, school summer breaks where all of my siblings and me, we all had friends over. So sometimes it would be 10 kids at the house of my parents. And my mom was just she loved it. She loved it. Those were the best memories of just many, many kids at the house. So I yeah. Well, and I'm not disagreeing with that, of course. And I have great memories of houses full of my mother was friends with a woman whose husband was very wealthy. They had one of the few indoor pools or ever an outdoor pool, but it had sort of a plastic over it. And I remember just one new year's eve when I was a kid that was just an unbelievable blast. This is typical 70s kind of stuff that was going on crazy in chaotic, but a lot of fun. So, but if she has a lot of kids over, she's not

1:14:50functioning as a mother. She's functioning as a hostess or she's functioning as a manager. If that makes sense. Yes. Yes. So that's not quite the same. If I go after dinner with my wife, that to date, if we have, you know, 10 people over for a dinner party, that's not a date, right? The correct. Okay. So what did she love about being a mother to you and your three siblings? Um, the thing that comes to mind is the things that she praised this for. There wasn't much affection shown within the family. But the thing that I remember is she was always very proud that we were doing very well at school and that people kept praising us for being good to pick up the slack. Sorry, being good at helping. That's not that's loving praise. And that's not the wrong with being praise for your kids. So I'm not trying to say that's something negative about that.

1:15:51But that's, there's a couple of things about that. One that's loving being praised for sure. And I was taking an adult computer science course when I was in grade eight and then I was in a grade 13 writing class when I was in grade eight. And my mother would brag about that. And, you know, whatever, you mean we're happy about our kids when they do well. So that's not inherently negative. But that's enjoying praise. That's not necessarily a loving motherhood. And also part of the reasons why you guys did well in school and helped out around the house is because your mother beat you. So this is in a sense like a man bragging about his wife being compliant and helpful when he beats her. Do you see what I mean? Yes. So enjoying motherhood would be seeking you guys out just to telling you how much she loves you, how much she enjoys your company, how she looks forward to spending time with you, you know, taking you out one by one to get to know you better and make sure you're not just in the general, really burly chaos of of multiple kids, four kids and so on. So, you know, in just really enjoying being a mother, really loving that experience and that

1:16:54process and making sure that the kids know how treacherous and valuable they are to her as individuals as well as collectively. Did not happen. What was your mother's? I'm so sorry, go ahead. And I specifically remember telling my mom that I was that I was like some more one on one time and it didn't happen. We had happened twice until we reached the goal. Hang on, hang on. Your language lusted spied for a moment there. You asked your mother for more one on one time, which is great. And then you said what? And she only made time twice. She said it didn't happen. Now, it doesn't happen. It's like I'm hoping it's going to be sunny this afternoon, but it didn't happen. That's fair because we can't solve the weather. Your mother, okay, I don't want to put words at your mouth now, but it's kind of unfair to blame you for that. So you ask your mother for more one on one time what's the most responsible way to describe your mother's reaction to that?

1:17:59I'm going to ignore it. I know that was her. We don't get it. No, she rejected you. She rejected you. I mean, if I go to the restaurant and I ask the waitress to fill up my cup of water and she just stays at me blankly and then just turns away and I never get my water, I'm being rejected. I'm not being ignored because I specifically asked for something. So you said to your mom, I want more one on one time and she rejected you. I mean, she should have known that anyway. And if you would say to any parent with multiple children, it's important that you have one on one time, but then of course, every parent would say, well, yes, of course, blah, blah, blah. So you said to your mother, I miss you. I want to spend more time with you. And you said it didn't happen. No, she rejected that request. She rejected you. Which I'm really sorry about. I mean, that's a terrible experience for a child because you're also sitting there waiting. And what did she say when you asked for that? I don't remember. I just remember it not happening. And it's particularly true of daughters and mothers. My wife and my daughter

1:19:05would go out and do things that are mysteriously female that I can't do. And so there you have to have that relationship and so on. So it's particularly true with same sex, sons and fathers, daughters and mothers. You understand that, right? You need more one on one time. And do you remember how old you were when you asked for this? I think I was beginning teenage years, I remember. Sure, because you want to learn what it is to be a woman. You would need to figure out what it is to be a female and not a child, right? Okay. I'm sorry about that. And you said that your father grew interested in you guys. I know it was beyond toddlerhood. Was it early teens or before that, when did your father start showing interest? I would say mid teens. Mid teens. So basically a couple of years before parenting ends. Yes. Sorry about that too. And do you know if your mother ever explained to you why your father was largely ignoring you? Yes, I remember. She said that he's just not so good with small kids.

1:20:14Not so good with small kids, all right? So does that mean that he should not become better with small kids? I mean, nobody's good with small kids when they first come along because it's been, you know, a while since we were kids ourselves and a lot of us don't have great parenting templates and so on. So it's kind of understandable that he would not be great with small kids. But what does that mean? Does that mean that you don't have to learn? You know, if I were to get a dog tomorrow, I love dogs, but I don't think I'd be a good dog owner because it's a bit too regimented. And I've had way too many friends over the years who are like, oh, it's eight o'clock, it's eight thirty. I've got to get home, I've got to take care of the dog. And it's like, okay, so that's, you know, I'm no complaint about it. It's just not for me. But if I, if for some reason, I got a dog or an heritage dog, and I just treated the dog badly, I didn't feed it properly, and I didn't take it for walks. And I just said, well, I'm just not, I'm just not good with dogs. Would that be a reasonable excuse? No, not at all. No. So what does it mean to say he's just not

1:21:15that good with kids? Then don't have kids, but if you have four, you better learn. Yeah, you know, I like, it's not that hard. You just, you sit down and you interact with them like, you know, I didn't interact with other babies until I had my first. And then, and I was, I was so scared. I was like, oh, what do I do with that baby? But when you have it, you never, like, it's so clear. You just, yeah, it's kind of weird to society just to take a baby home. Good luck. You know, it's just kind of wild. I just, I remember driving home with my daughter in the usual, like, like many years ago in the usual, like, it's, it's four miles an hour that you're driving. Yes, you got a baby. And it's just like, yeah, they just let her take a take a home. Yeah, good luck. I think it's pretty wild. But okay, so, you put a diaper on when you're at home. There's no nurse to watch your always like, oh, I was that too tight. It's a too loose. You're just so to drag the baby. Oh, yeah, I remember my daughter falling asleep with her face in the corner of them mattress and all of that. And I'm like, can she breathe? Like, I don't know.

1:22:18This is before AI. And so I'm going to just take a picture with AI. And it says that she's fine. If that's the case. So, yeah, it's just a wild thing. So that's very interesting to me. And I appreciate you bringing bringing that up. So your mother has said your father is just not good with children as a whole because by sort of mid teens, you mean, you're physically mature, you know, your brain is fast on its track, but maturation and your, you know, a couple of years away from being a full-on adult. So when your mother says your father isn't good with children, what does that mean? I'm trying to sort of unpack that in terms of your experience as a child. So that's not, we're not interesting enough yet for him to interact with us or to look up from work. Once we get to hold intellectual conversations, then we're interesting. But that is to me extremely selfish. Because he's saying, I am the one who needs to be

1:23:22intellectually stimulated by my children. And until such time as they can provide that, they're uninteresting to me. That is selfish, right? It's his needs, not what's best for the kids. Yeah. And that's a brutal template to work with, right? Yes. And why wouldn't your mother say to your father something like, no, that's not, I'm sorry, that's not acceptable. You can't have four children and then kind of ignore them until 15, 20 years down the road. That's that, like, you have to find some way to work with the kids. That's unfair to me as the mother. And it is selfish. It's not a choice that you can make, say, well, those toddlers aren't discussing, bit can't stand with me. So they don't matter. They're unimportant. That's not an option as a parent, right? So why wouldn't your mother, or maybe she did,

1:24:26I don't know, because did she ever say, like I tried to talk to him about it, he just won't listen, I don't want you to take this personally. It's a deficiency in him. Because of course, if your own father thinks that you're boring, it's pretty hard not to think that you're boring, right? Yes. So what did your mother say about that other than he's not good with kids, which is very passive, right? And of course, if he's not good with kids, why have four kids with him? I don't know. Why would she not confront him? Well, or if she couldn't get him to budge, if she said, look, listen, sunny boy, being a parent isn't all about what you need, of course, babies are intellectually non-stimulating. I get that big whoop, right? That's understood, right? Babies aren't going to be discussing Pythagorean theorems with you. We understand that, right? And that's the fact that parenting that everybody understands who's got a IQ north of 70, right? But it's not about you and your pleasures. It's about what's best for the babies.

1:25:29It's about what's best for the babies. And so you have to get out of your own, not sorry, for your father, he would have to get out of his own selfishness and do something for the benefit of others that he chose to have and nobody forced him to become a father certainly not four times, right? And so you would have to say you'd have to put your own vanity and ego and selfishness aside and say, what's best for the kids? I mean, of course, like one of the things that kind of struck me earlier was that, if, and of course this isn't going to happen with your kids, right? But if your kids were never to develop intellectually past their current time, then you would be a care worker for mentally challenged people for the rest of your life. So, and very few people would want that. Yes. So it's the progress and it's the growth. But this is the face, right? I mean, if your kids were, you know, 20 and, you know, between 20 and 23 and still acting like this, it would be, you know, quite tragic in terms of their intellectual development and it would be pretty, pretty, a very tough situation. I mean, I,

1:26:35I know someone who had a kid to go and hit with meningitis and it destroyed parts of her brain and it was just really, really tough going forward. So, yeah, of course, it's not intellectually stimulating in this kind of way. Of course, children are thrilled by repetition, you know, read that same story over and over again and end all of that. And then that's, you know, that's everyone understands that that's natural. That's the way, the way things are. It's sort of like, you know, if a mother were to say, I can't believe I have to get up at night to breastfeed, it would be like, well, what do you mean you? You said, you didn't know this. It's like some guy going to be army and though, what guns? What are they doing here? Anyway, so, so in terms of your father, it could be, it could be a level deeper too. It could be a level deeper. So if your mother is a perfectionist, then well, maybe you've seen this, what happens if your father tries to help around the house or help around or do things if he even does at all? What happens when you try to

1:27:36do things around a perfectionist? What do they always say? It's never good enough. It's never the way it's going to go. It's supposed to go here, not the end. You did it wrong and that's all supposed to go in the dishwasher and right. That's the wrong place for the folks to go and, right? Yes, exactly. And so just that happened with your father and your mother, or have you seen that? Yes. Maybe when you were a kid. Yes. Okay. So I don't recall when I was a kid, but it certainly happens now. Right. So one of the things that happens is that perfectionists bully people and then claim that they're not helped. Like you can't do anything right, followed by, why do I have to do everything myself? It's like because you're a bully, right? I mean, I don't want to, you know, if I had some, I was helping some friend move and he was just yelling at me that I was doing everything wrong. I'd just say, oh, well, I'm dropped the couch and go home, right? So it could be that your father wanted to help more, wanted to get involved more, but your mother kind of bullied him because he was doing it wrong. I don't know because, you know, I'm just sort of

1:28:40trying to get the mental map of the family when you were a kid, but okay. So if I'm sort of asking about did your mother love being a parent? I mean, my wife talks about when my daughter was younger and like starts tearing up because she remembers it's with such happiness and joy and all of that. And we'll, you know, make sure that we spend lots of time with a daughter and so on. So did your mother a shave? And it's a very common thing. It's a very common thing. And particularly for mothers and particularly for stay-home mothers, that they're shaving at it. It's not right. It's it's not fitting. It's like, I'm trying to get that round peg into a square hold or something like that, that women shave at motherhood. And it sounds like your mother shaved a lot at motherhood and did not embrace it and enjoy it and love it and roll with it. I don't have these early memories enough to say whether she did or did not.

1:29:47But if yes, from from our conversation, that's what I would deduce. Well, it sounds like, and again, I'm trying to fill in some gaps, obviously gaps here. So tell me if I'm wrong. But it sounds like was it was it, were you anxious siblings, how often did you feel you were doing just the right things and your mother was pleased with you without any correction? Whenever we went off and did something ourselves, that was the case. Well, that's not that doesn't camp though because that's being away from your mother. When you were around your mother, how often did you feel that nothing needed to change, everything was great, nothing needed to be corrected and you were fine just the way you were? Not so often. Right. I remember some moments but that was later on teenage years, but not much during childhood years, or the earlier years. So if that's the case, wouldn't there be kind of an unease around your mother that the sort of roving cold eye of sore on is kind of scanning

1:30:52the landscape, looking for problems or looking for something that might be wrong or this kind of impatience of frustration with the way things are in some way? Yes, absolutely. And you have that too. Yeah. I was really struck. I'm so sorry, go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. I saw that coming at the end. It's like, oh, shit. That's all me. That's all me. Oh, shit. Yes, I interrupted you. No, no. You didn't interrupt me. That was you were about to say something and I spoke first, which is more maybe interrupting your thoughts. So, okay. So I was really struck by what you said about your kids. And obviously I know that you love your kids and I know that you want the best for your kids and you really care about your kids. So this is not to try and erase any of that, but it's really struck by some of the things that my husband will get my children off me. Yes, off my back. Right. Like leeches or something or vampires. It's a very strong, get these children off me. And that's a very powerful phrase. And I'm not trying to hang everything on one

1:31:59phrase that could have been somewhat accidental, but there was a couple of phrases that you use, you know, that you just need to get things done almost like your children are in the way of things or they're interfering with things that you need to do. And so your children then would be viewed as interruptions or negatives. You know, like if you're late for an appointment and it's a really important appointment and then the light turns red, right? And you're in the car. You're like, oh, come on, right? You know, like, and especially if the lights keep turning red, it just gets frustrating because the lights are in the way of you getting to the appointment, right? Yes. Now, did your mother view the children as an interference to the life that she really wanted? Maybe a life of more order or peace or cleanliness or order something like that? Yes, certainly more orderliness, more cleanliness. If I look at her, how's now it's impeccable? It's straight out of a catalog. And that certainly wasn't a case when we were kids. It was never

1:33:01so you don't like it's just it wasn't as impeccable as it is now. Right. And do you know much about your own mother's childhood and what it was like for her? Um, not nice at all. She's a child, her parents divorced when she was 11, 12, something like that. Her father brought home mistresses and I don't know, made out with them in the living room and had his wife, the mother of my mother, serve drinks to them. It was I heard her render stories and he was she was beat with a belt and it's horrendous. Oh my gosh. So her father brought home flusies or whatever you want to call them, trashy women and and had and had his wife serve them all. Yes. And she was beaten by her mother or her father or both by the father. I don't think she

1:34:03was beaten by the mother. I would think it was just her father. So the selfish man is kind of a stereotype or an archetype for your mother because it's incredibly selfish and sadistic, of course, to bring your to bring other women home and make your wife give them drinks. Right. I mean, that's incredibly sadistic. Yeah, it's a scry, I can't even imagine like crazy. And what was her relationship like with her parents? Is she grew older? She split with her mother because her mother savored her younger sister so much and she was always seconded. So she was closer her father and she never talked badly about him until he died. And then she did or then she didn't? She still does. And she eventually did but not too much. She still remembers like we hear mostly funny

1:35:05good stories and not the bad ones. But when I hear some of the bad ones, I'm like how in a world you keep a person like that in your life, that's just crazy. So of course, was she the one who told you about him bringing home his mistresses and forcing your mother to to serve them? Yes. On how old were you when you found out about that? I think it was around adults maybe around 18 or just after. But it was way after he died and he died when I was I think 10 or so. Yeah, but it was way after someone I was maybe 18 I found out about these things. Were she executed by one of his mistresses? A died of alcoholism. Oh, a drink or two. Yes. Or a liver failure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gosh. And have you ever and when I asked this question, I'm always sensitive to the fact that I'm not saying whether you

1:36:07should or shouldn't have. I'm just kind of curious. Have you ever talked to her and said, your father helped me understand this relationship because he was a drunk, he was sadistic, he was cruel, he beat. Did you know if he was physically violent towards your grandmother? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Okay. He was certainly sad. He was at a point. Yes. I never heard of gun. I think that's where the divorce came from. He threatened to hope that they'd gun. Yes. Oh, my gosh. That is almost unbelievable. Yeah, it's like if yeah, she or any stories, it makes me shiver. So threatening how would the gun that's I mean, that's threatening to kill someone, right? That's right. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Yes. And she your mother claimed to be close to him. Yes. And we were going over to his place. What does this mean? I think when the divorce happened, my mother was the only one who kept

1:37:13in touch with the father, but she was kind of rejected from her own mother because her moon. Yeah. She was always compared to our younger sister and all the flaws that my mom had that sister didn't have. So my mother was also sorry, her mother was also kind of a sadist too. It's now this very cruel. Sorry. Go ahead. Yeah. So my mom, I think the sister, the younger sister and the ex-wife of course, they broke off contact with this terrible man. But my mother did not. And when we came along, I remember going to his house a few times a year and it was just good vibes. And he never shrieked and or yelled at us or like it was just he was just the best friend father. He had rabbits and sheep and it was always a lot of fun. Like when my mom told me these stories,

1:38:14almost couldn't believe them. Wow. It's not new. And I didn't know about the alcoholism. I assume he was still drinking. He might get went over. No, not necessarily in front of you. Yes, but he was never like this drunk that would fall or I just can't I can't put these pieces together. But I don't have. Yeah. Well, so as a male, sometimes female standards are confusing to me. This doesn't mean that they're wrong. It just means that it's quite different from the way that men think. So from a male perspective, your father mentally torturing your mother having endless affairs, being a drunk and pulling and threatening her with a gun threatening to kill her, that to me would be a lot worse. I'm sorry, yes, there's a program other my apologies. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah. So a guy who's this evil and sadistic to me, that would be worse than showing favoritism to one sibling over another.

1:39:20Favoriteism is not illegal, pulling a gun and threatening to kill someone would be illegal. Right? You'd go to jail for that. And so help me understand, again, this is a male perspective, female perspective, help me understand how your mother's favoritism was unacceptable to your mother, but all the evil that your father did didn't really matter because she was very close to him. He could pull guns on people, bring women home, force your mother, maybe be violent, threaten her, but right. And that's fine. I can be close to her. But heaven forbid the mother show favoritism, that's unacceptable. Yes. I can't explain that. Like for me, that's just wild. I think it was, if it was, I think because she was far straying, I won't, in the father's heavy career, she's favored over the sister. So maybe that's why. But she's always falling short from the sister.

1:40:21So there's just so much conflict, so much rivalry there. And still when they see each other, it's just after that, my mom comes home and feels like this tiny one who hasn't accomplished a thing when it's really the sister who's had a terrible life and who's bitter because she has no, has no family, has no kids. And yeah, but somehow my mom comes home and feels like she's the one who hasn't accomplished a thing. Right. Okay. Yeah. I mean, definitely being favored is pretty bad for kids because it gives you an unjust vanity that is actually toxic. So all right. So I don't know if this rings true for you. It's a basic principle that I've noticed over the years. Doesn't mean of course that it applies in every circumstance. But in general, if you can't control the people in your life or you can't have much influence on the people in your life or the people in your life are dangerous, particularly for women, you end up then wanting to control the environment. In other words, I can't control my violent drunken, philandering husband, but I

1:41:26sure as hell can make sure that the pillows are in the right place on the couch. Yes. Does that seem to be the case with you, man? Yes. And yeah, um, it's stressful moments. It feels like that's me as well. Okay. And what do you mean? And yeah, me as well. What sort of moments and what are your thoughts? What are my thoughts? I can't think of an example, but I can remember my husband pointing it out when it happens. He's like, you're so stressed. You're like, some you care about where all these things go and like, you can, um, he's the one to point it out. And I'm always like, Oh shit. Yeah, you're so right, you're so right. And when I can't control, yeah, then I need to control. If I can't control the people that I have to control where everything goes in all the details or if I, if I'm stressed, then I feel like I need to, then I have this control, this urge to control all the variables that I

1:42:27can possibly control. Right. Okay. Okay. All right. And what's your relationship like with your father these days? Um, some of the outside, it looks, it looks like we are, um, we're doing well. But what's it like? Um, I see a like, he has this, he doesn't have the same standards to himself as he has to other people. And, and I can't see that. So I feel like I have glasses on with my dad. He was, we were having a conversation. My, my husband, my, my, my, my husband and my father were having a conversation about something and my, my dad points out of flaw and my husband's like, oh, you should be separating your, your trash, your, like your cans, you should be throwing into this trash, but you should separate them and bring back to recycling. And then, in, in that same

1:43:28conversation, he's talking about all the way, he's, uh, he's done something illegal. And that's not good for a, not quite, and sort of, it's not the, in a sort of trash category, but he's done something where it's like, okay, well, that's not legal. And that's like, you're polluting the environment by, by doing this. And, and I couldn't even see it. And my husband pointed it out. After he says, like, did you see that your, your dad just, you know, he condemns me for this, but at the same time, he does that. And I was like, oh, I didn't even see that. Sorry. I made a little us with the story. So your, your father criticized your husband for not separating his recycling. And then what did your father, what did your husband point out that your father was doing that was illegal? Okay. I'll give you the concrete example. My parents own the house, uh, or own house, and they have their own, um, how do you call this, um, plants that cling the, the waste water, they have their own waste water management plants kind of, um, and my,

1:44:31on the property, yeah, on the property. Okay. It's not hooked up to the, because it's a very far away from, um, yeah, society or from a city. So dad, their own, um, wastewater management system. And it was under, um, it was made too small. It was made for less people that are, than are living on the property now. So whenever they come to check whether the wastewater, that is then being let downstream into a river meets the, the cleanliness requirements. He pours, um, clean water into that, uh, waste water management system. So it looks like it's fairly clean. Um, yeah. So, uh, so he's polluting. So, so your father is saying to your husband, you need to recycle, but your, your, your father is putting excess human waste into a river that's polluting it for everyone. Uh, then it's not quite that extreme. It's not that kind of, but, but, yes, so something like that. Yes. Or the ground water or something. Okay.

1:45:32Yes. Yes. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. And that's fine. Um, and that's interesting. And you hadn't noticed that, of course, right? Um, yes, I didn't notice that contradiction. Um, I didn't notice that contradiction while he was talking about it. And, and I'm still like, giving him excuses on why, why my house did not set for eating a trash or, uh, what, I mean, if I was your husband, I would say, but you ignored your children for most of their childhoods. So I think I'll be fine with not separating my recycling, you know, which is more important in life. Yes. Yeah. Like my dad's, you know, makes a comment about something, something parenting and, and uh, I was just saying, well, at least I don't beat my kids, right? Like, I'm not sure yet anything to say to that. And he doesn't answer. Right. Right. Okay. Um, so I, I, I, I have a lot of free sentiment towards him and a hatred. And I feel like I have never had a conversation on the things I think have been. He did right.

1:46:32And he did wrong. Uh, sorry, sorry to interrupt. Do you, do you separate your mother and your father? Like, I have problems with my father, but not so much with my mother or things like that. Yes, I do. Okay. But who is, who is responsible for your father being your father? Well, my father. No. Oh, sorry. Oh, sorry. My father being the, like, biological, we met father. Uh, yeah. Sorry. Uh, it's, it's my mother. See, this, I mean, I, I want to point this out sort of very clearly because this is a male perspective. But I think it's important for women to understand how we look at things. So a woman, I assume your mother was reasonably attractive and she was younger. Yeah, let's say so. Okay. Any woman who's reasonably attractive has 10 to 20 to 30 men who'd be happy to date her. Now, women as a whole put themselves on display and then men will approach them. And I'm not telling you anything you don't know. I'm just reminding everyone who listens to this. So women put themselves on display and then men come and ask women out and women are in the privileged

1:47:37position of saying yes or no. Yes, right. Yes. So of the 10 to 20 to 30 men that your mother could have married and have children with, she chose your father out of lots of different men. Right. She chose to date him. She chose to get engaged to him. She chose to get married to him. And she chose to have children with him, right? Uh, four. And she chose to stay with him. So she gave him the greatest gift a man could possibly get, which is to reproduce, right? Yes. Okay. So, uh, and so that is a great privilege that women have. It's not fun for men and we kind of know that this is the deal, right? But it's not particularly fun for men to have to go and ask women out and, you know, get rejected and, you know, all this kind of stuff that happens in this kind of way, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, and look, that's just the deal. And, you know, I have to ask girls out and get rejected, but women have to keep childbirths and all of that, right? So, so women have a great privilege

1:48:40in choosing from a wide variety of men, the men that they have children with. And so the reason your father is your father is because of your mother. Is she chose him out of a, I mean, it wasn't like there was two of them on a desert island and they just had to reproduce because they had no choice, right? Yes. So your father is your father because of your mother. And so it's kind of, and I'm certainly happy to hear, I mean, it could be wrong about all of any of this, but what I can't quite understand is how you'd be upset with your father and your mother is not part of the equation because he's only your father because your mother chose him. How does she get off that responsibility? How does he get off that responsibility? Because I feel like she's... How can you be mad at your father without also including the fact that it's only your father? And to take a silly example, it'd be like if I brought some, some pit bull into the house and it, you know, bit my daughter or did some horrible pit bull thing. And then my daughter's only mad at the pit bull.

1:49:41Play well. I chose to bring the pit bull into the house, so to speak. Yes. I've had, I've had connoisseurs confrontations with my mother. And I think I talked to her about what I think was, she did right and or wrong. And we're on good terms. I feel like I can talk to her about my childhood, but I can't do that with my dad because he would say, like, oh, your adult now, you're on your own. And there's I live in the now and it's in the past, you're on your own now, you're an adult. Go make your own choices. So your father would not have any conversations about any deficiencies he had when you were younger? I've never tried, but I can imagine that he's like, I'm not sure this. But you just get your mother to help. You say to your mom, listen, I really need to talk to dad. And he keeps shutting me down so I need you to talk to him. I need you to, you know, maybe you can facilitate the conversation. Maybe we'll do it all together,

1:50:41but, you know, I really need to have these conversations. So you would say to your mother, um, help me. I see, I see. And what would happen if you did that? Um, I mean, your mother's all kind of tough with little kids, right? She's threatening them, she's beating them. So your mother's all kind of tough and dominant when it comes to little kids. So it should be fine for her to talk to the husband she's had for many decades who loves her and she loves and right, she should be fine to talk to him and exercise some willpower and authority and preferences. Yes, yes. I don't think my mother is the best facilitator of conversations when it comes to emotional conversations. She's going to have to be the best. She doesn't have to be the best. She just has to say to her, she just has to say to your father, no, listen to your daughter. She's, it's important. Don't just brush her off. Because if she sees the thing, so your father, I mean, he says, I'm your father, right? Which means that his relationship is based on the past, right? He's not just some random guy who air dropped into your house from Ali Baba, right? He is your father,

1:51:43which means he claims a special privilege because he was around from the beginning and he's your half-est DNA, right? Yes. So then at the same time, he can't say the past is irrelevant, because the entire relationship, he's not just some random guy you met at a dinner party who decided to invite into your family's life. He's in your life because he's your father. And then if your father says, well, the past doesn't matter, it's all about the present and the future is like, but then you have no privilege and no claim on me at all, because then you're just some guy. And I'll judge you as just some guy, rather than a guy, I have a multi-decade history with who's my father. You can't have it both ways, right? Yeah. You can't say, I'm in your life because of our history. And then when you say, I have problems with our history, you say, the history doesn't matter. You're an adult now. The history is irrelevant. It's like, okay, then you wouldn't be my father in a relationship sense, right? So he's he's talking out of both sides of his mouth. Yeah, then I would have to judge him as a person he used and, uh, yeah, I'm not sure we'd have a relationship then. Well, I mean, that that's the problem. It's saying you you can't bring up the

1:52:46past. It's like, okay, then you're saying the past is irrelevant. Then I'm judging you just as a person, not as father. Yeah, how did you how did you how did you repair things with your mother who and I know we're going over and I'll try and keep it relatively succinct? God help me. But how did you repair things with your mother to the point you have a good relationship now? Yeah. Um, it's it's my it's having kids having kids and seeing what she went through, uh, understanding the hardship or the tough moments that that it is. Oh, we're back to excuses again. Oh, what did you say? Understanding what she went through. Yes, understand what you like. She was just kidnapped out of nowhere and and sold on the streets in Dubai and what she went through as a kid, you know, it's like, no, she chose to have kids and she chose to beat them and she chose not to exercise self control and she chose a husband who was uninvolved and she let him stay

1:53:48uninvolved without exercising any authority. She chose all of this. What do you mean she went through? Yeah, because you're saying the children are a trial that mothers just have to go through and low and behold, what's your parenting as a trial? You just have to have to go through that your children are doing things unto you. The juror victim that you just they're in the way they're all over you. They're hanging off your back. You've got a mission and they're just in the way. They're interferences. They're annoyances. This all coming from your mother and your father. Yes. And you and I both know as parents, if one of your children got deathly ill and then recovered, you would not view that child as any kind of interference or annoyance. You'd be incredibly thrilled, relieved, overjoyed and happy that your child had lived. But you get that every day with healthy children. Imagine some doctor, God forbid says, I think your child has leukemia and it's going to die and then they run the test. It turns out, no, it's just a cold leukemia might be annoyed at the doctor, but you wouldn't view that child as an annoyance would you? Absolutely not. So you can make that choice every day. This is what I mean when I say it's a choice.

1:54:51But the more you portray your mother and your father as victims or your mother in particular as a victim, the more victimized you're going to feel in your life that you put upon. If you say my mother just had to go through and try and survive her life, then you're going to view your mother as a victim and her life is addressing against her and her desperately trying to survive it. And that's your life to some degree. You're chosen and not imposing themselves upon you. You summoned them. You summoned them. You decided you chose to invite your children into your life and now you view them not all the time, of course, but significantly as interfering burdens. Yes. That's your mother's perspective on parenthood. Your husband is much more involved than your father was, right? Yes, much, much more. You have much better access to technology and resources and home aids than your mother did, right? Yes. You have two or three friends who are close by. Your mother

1:55:55takes your your boys once a week. So you you have resources and support, the kind of which a frontier woman in the 19th century would never have even dreamed of. And if that frontier woman in the 19th century could switch places with you for a day and you switch places with her for a day, who do you think would have emerged the more appreciative of their current life? I would. Right. You have all the modern amenities. You have incredible technology. You have help, a husband, aid, comfort, money, income, technology, homes saving devices or labor saving devices. You have it all of the women in history, right? And and the men in history like we have it all. I mean, there's current political problems that's always been the case, but but we have it all as far as comfort and convenience goes, right? I mean, can you imagine saying to someone from the 19th century, hey, you know, I push this button and the whole house cools down. Look, I just turned this tap and I got hot water. Oh, look, I can drive in this air conditioned horseless carriage anywhere in the world or anywhere in the country. Oh, oh, look, my none of my children have died. None, none. I mean,

1:57:00they're bearing half their children before the age of five. And that's what I mean when I say that stress is to some degree a choice. And I'm certainly happy to hear more, but here's the part where you get kind of actually, but I'm certainly happy to hear more if there's more that you wanted to share. Yeah, you we we've been there before. I think we've had a call in a few years ago when I had just one and you you also it was also a conclusion to enjoy your kids more like it's a choice to plunge into this adventure called motherhood. Yes, but how do I get there? You can't get there if you continually make excuses for your own mother because you're both the category called mothers. And mothers can't be both have the requirement to enjoy and appreciate their children and also view their children as interfering burdens that mess up the house. Yeah. And so you are still conforming. Sorry, go ahead. How do I get to the other side of this? How do I get to the other side? Okay, I can't stop interfering. I'm going to be speak. That's what I'm trying to help you with.

1:58:04I'm trying to tell you and you keep telling you. I'll get her up to this is the part I said right get the lecture a bit. So forgive me if I do that. All right. Be quiet. So well, unless I get something wrong, right? Of course, right? So you are of two minds, right? There's the philosophical, peaceful parenting, you know, deafish brain or whatever it is, like that. So the sort of stuff that I talk about. And then you're also conforming and complying to your mother's sense of victimization and sense of being put upon. And your mother's aggression is also still cooking deeply in to your motherly brain. Because sorry, I'll ask I said I'd lecture just let me ask tell me a little bit about what happened with the beatings from your mother. How often and what form did they take? How often it's really hard to pin it down? Is it two times a year? I would say maybe three. It's hard to say, but these things

1:59:09where she completely went haywire with her emotions and screamed at us and started beating us was at least once a year, at least once a year, maybe two, three times a year. Yeah, where like she was screaming and tears were streaming down her face and she's just beating us or whoever, you know, the beating you had. How was she beating you? But implements or hand or yes, and implements first hands, but then she tells me that at one point I went to her and said that didn't hurt and then she started taking implements after that. And what did she hit you with? Not sure how to call it, but you know this thing that you beat the dust out of the carpet's whistle. Yeah, yeah, I don't know what it's called either but I know what you mean. Yes, the ducking. It was always that. I remember the sound of this. We hadn't stored in a very specific cupboard. I remember the sound of like when she's

2:00:14very, very agitated, very angry and then the sound of that cupboard opening which is send us into we would just start crying because we're just so so scared. And what is her perspective on these beatings now? She regrets them. She regrets them because they happened. She says, I'm making excuses again. No, so because because she didn't happen in a calm manner because she was also, so yeah, so she regrets she regrets that she was out of control, but not the beatings. Yes, I think so. So does she think that you should beat your children? That's a hard one. I feel like she agrees with me that you don't, but it's hard to if you ask her if she could take all the beatings away, she would she would probably take it all away, but I'm not sure how she would have gotten us to do what she really wanted us to do. Hang on, what do you mean she would have got you to do what she really wanted

2:01:19you to do like what? She wanted us to clean the room. Once a week we had to clean our room and then we end up throwing things around, not cleaning. She gives us an hour and then like there's a time running and it's still not the things are not being cleaned and I don't recall I don't recall a specific beating. I do not, I do not, but I recall there was lots of conflict about us cleaning the room that we had a playroom cleaning that room once a week, but I couldn't tell you what exactly happened to to get us so agitated that she thought the only the only solution was to beat us to get us to comply to finally clean that room. There were other yeah, but it's mostly these situations where we were not cleaning the room or the room wasn't as clean as she thought it would be or it wasn't on her time. I don't know, but it certainly not the room on me was probably

2:02:23a spiting and I don't remember. Yeah, I don't remember. So what age if you remember what you supposed to start cleaning? I was certainly older than six. So older than six, younger than 12 is what I recall the beatings like that's the age I recall the beatings I don't recall beatings after 12. Before six, so before six you weren't responsible to clean your room, is that right? I don't remember because before six we lived another place, but I remember I was beat there, but it was by hands only. Okay, so you were still not in it. It was no implements. Okay, but you were so you were hit, but without implements. Yes. And that before six, right? Yes. Okay. All right, so does she think that you should hit your four-year-old when he becomes four? Let's say four, he's supposed to clean his room. Does she think that you

2:03:29should hit your four-year-old or will she hit your four-year-old if he doesn't clean? Let's say because she takes your eldest son's one day a week and she thinks that, sorry. So sorry, I shouldn't interrupt. She's keep talking. I'm sorry. No, no, does she think like is she going to hit your sons when they're supposed to clean and they don't? Absolutely not. And I told her if she ever lays hands on them, she'll not see them again. And she knows that. Okay, so she only won't do it because she wants to do it. She thinks that she should do it if I understand this rightly, but you've threatened her with no contact if she does. No, I think the way she works is because she doesn't have them. She has them for a one day only, which is I don't know, maybe eight hours or so. So she has them for one day a week and it's not enough to get her worked up so much that she would feel that the only choice she has left this week. Oh, so she had them two days a week or three days a week, then she would hit them. And you should hit them because you have them for six days a week.

2:04:35She would never say that I should hit them. I think she thinks I'm doing a lot better than she is because I wouldn't hit my kids because I talked to them. Okay, so hitting children is bad. Yes, yes, she agrees. Okay, so she was wrong and immoral to hit and beat her children when they were young. Yes. And as she acknowledged that, as she apologized for that, as she tried to make restitution, I mean, how has that worked out? She told me that she is sorry. She told me she is sorry. We had a conversation about it because I was trying to understand what happened to her as a kid. And then we ended that conversation with me saying that she did a lot better than her own dad did onto her and I'm trying to break the cycle. So basically I gave her a way out, gave her an excuse, like, I can do it. And she said, yes, I'm sorry for hitting and I can see

2:05:35you're doing a lot better. So she basically started by saying it, I started by giving it the conversation about it was about giving her an excuse or giving her an explanation on why she did it. And that's you already did a lot better. And then she apologized and said that she shouldn't have and she's glad I'm not. Okay, so then the question is, if she really is sorry, then what restitution would she make? Like I sort of made this joke the other day in the live stream, you know, like if I borrow your car and I put a huge dent in the door and I just say sorry and I dropped the car off, is that enough? No, no, no, but what do I need to do? No, it's not. So yes. So what do I need to do? I think she should apologize to all of us and not just to me. If he has like, she's doing it to me to get hands on the kids, but I know she would never deem them. Oh, sorry, hang on, hang on. So she's acknowledged that she was wrong to

2:06:36beat her children, but she has never mentioned that to her other kids. Correct. That's gross. That's really vile. I gotta tell you straight up. And this is great news. Because there's a reason why your mother's still in your head and dominating so much of your parenting. It's because she's a weasel. Because she will apologize if you threaten her, but it's not genuine. It's not real. It's not emotional. It's not moral. Because if it was moral, then she had empathy. She'd go to the other kids and say, listen, I'm really sorry for beating you. It was totally wrong. There's no excuse for it blah, blah, blah, blah. But she's only doing it to you. She's not sorry at all. On principle, she's just threatened. Yes. And that's why who, and that's why she's still dominating your parenting mindset. Yes, you're right. You're right. I mean, if you're eldest boy, belted his brother and then said, sorry to you, but not to him, what would you say? You don't need to apologize to me. You need to apologize to your brother.

2:07:37You go apologize to the person you hurt. And she did three other people here, the two other beat. And she hasn't said anything to them. So she's not sorry at all. Yeah. It hasn't really internalized the actual wrongdoing. She's done. She's done. She hasn't really it turned. I'm so sorry. No, she, she, sorry. She hasn't, she hasn't, she's lying about being sorry. Let's just call it what it is. She's lying about being sorry. Because now you have the upper hand and you can threaten her with no context. So suddenly, she's sorry, but she doesn't care about the other kids. Yeah. Has your, what deficiencies has your mother admitted to in her parent? Not giving us enough one-on-one time. She's admitted that to everyone. And why didn't she do that when she was asked to? In fact, beg for that, I imagine. I can give you her excuses, but why didn't she do it? No, no, what are her excuses? I don't know. Because if I say sorry for something and then immediately come up with an excuse, I'm not really sorry. You know, if I'm late to meet a friend,

2:08:43and I say the subway was broken, then it's not really like I'm sorry like it did something wrong, right? Okay, so what's her excuse? Oh, so busy, so many kids so much to do, no time. Like what was her excuse? Exactly. That's, I don't remember her answer when I asked her about it, but her excuse now would be exactly what you said. Right. So that's, that's, so that's an insult to you and the children. Because if you ask someone for the impossible, right, like imagine my wife should be awake every morning and was angry at me for still being bald or for aging, right? I mean, that would be kind of crazy, right? Because asking me to spontaneously grow hair or become younger is asking for the impossible, right? So if you say to your mom, well, let's say your father was unjustly imprisoned, like no good reason, just unjustly imprisoned, would he say, I'm sorry

2:09:43that I didn't spend that much time with you? He could say I regret my inability to spend more time with you, but he wouldn't say I'm sorry because it was out of his hands. He just got unjustly imprisoned, like some poor Ukrainian guy grabbed off the street, sent to the front, right? In the Ukrainian war. It's not his fault. It's like it's just, it, that literally happened to him, right? So being angry at your father, if he was grabbed off the street and sent off to a war, would be unjust because it's not his fault, right? Yes. So if you say to your mother, I wish we'd had more one on one time and she says, I'm sorry, we didn't, but it was functionally impossible. That's an insult to you because you're asking her for something that's not even possible and you're upset with her for something she had no control over and couldn't provide, according to her narrative, right? So why do you let her get away with this stuff? I mean, were there punishments for you as a child for lying? If you lied to your mother? She pulled my hair probably. Okay, so if you lied to your mother, there were punishments,

2:10:46and your mother lies to your face and says there was no chance for me to have more one on one time with my children, which was a lie. All the time she spent obsessively cleaning, she could have spent in one on one time with her children, but she put the bullshit on the counter above the needs of her own children. Yeah. So she lied to you and she called you unreasonable for having needs and it was impossible for her to provide it because the carpet's needed beating as well as the children. So when she says to you, okay, let's just try this. Okay, so let's just try this to be complete with one of the last things we do because I really want to get through to this so you can disconnect from this mindset and enjoy your children's company more. Okay, so you play your mother and I say to you, mom, I'm mad that I kept asking you for more one on one time when I was a kid that you never provided it to me, maybe once or twice, and it really hurt and upset me.

2:11:46Well, who would have taken care of all the other, was the other three kids while I gave you one on one time? Are you saying that there was no chance even when the children became older for you to spend one on one time for me? Our schedule was always so full we had, we had so many things going on in our lives. I don't know where to sit there in, where I would have stood in. So my needs were a lower priority than the schedule. But the things on the schedule were four years, so I did so many things for you, like the schedules fall for you and for you. No, no, no, no, come on, you've got to not lie to me. This is kind of insulting to both of us, like, no, I said I wanted, I literally expressed, I want more one on one time. And you said, no, no, no, I was too busy doing things for you to give you the one thing that you actually really asked for. That's not true. And I'd rather really appreciate you don't just make up this silly stuff because it's not true. Are you saying it would have been impossible over the course of my childhood to spend even a couple of more times one on one with me? There's no way you were that busy. That's just not true.

2:12:49Like, come on, don't make these excuses. That's really, that's not telling me the truth. Yeah, maybe I should have, like my, like my other friend that spends more time with one on one time where our kids maybe I should have, should have been more like her. Well, I don't know what you mean, maybe I directly asked you for it. So why didn't you? Why was I so unimportant? Because I remember the house being full of like 20 kids, right? I mean, you could have taken one of those days and just spent it with me and the other kids too. But like, you know, when you asked your mom to spend time with you and she doesn't want to spend time with you because you didn't, if you did, you'd have made it a higher priority. I mean, you know, that makes me feel like shit, right? I'm sorry. No, no, I don't know what that means because like, how do you go from this, this is a really confusing conversation mom, how do you go from it was impossible to, I'm sorry, like that. Do you not remember saying it was impossible? You shouldn't be sorry for something that was impossible. If I said I was really upset with you for not being 20 feet tall,

2:13:51you'd say, well, it's impossible for a human being to be 20 feet tall. You wouldn't be sorry for that, right? So how do you go from it was impossible to, I'm sorry, like this doesn't make any sense to me. By now, she would be crying and sobbing and you couldn't get anything out of her. Okay, okay, mom, mom, take a deep breath, you know, in through the nose, out through the mouth, take a deep breath, try and focus on me, right? Because this is the exact problem that I'm talking about. This is not about you, mom, this is about me. So I need you to stop feeling the self pity or stop focusing on yourself, take a deep breath, look in the eyes and focus on me. Can you do that? I did the best I did the best I could with with the resources I had. Sorry if I wasn't perfect. So you're just pissing me off now, by the way, this is really, really insulting. So do you think that I have a standard called perfection that I'm holding you

2:14:52to because that would make me an asshole to throw to hold you to a standard of perfection? So you feel that you were as perfect a mother as could possibly be given the situation, which is true. So so you couldn't have done any better at all, is that right? All of my complaints, all of my criticisms are unjust. Sorry. She would weasel this question. She would be like, I did the as you really, really tried and I gave everything I had. You know how stressed I was the entire time, trying really, really trying hard. Not sure I would get a genuine. Okay, so then I would say, but hang on. So one of the reasons that you were stressed is you felt that your children didn't really listen to you, right? Yes. Okay. Why do you think we didn't listen to you, mom? What's your theory about that? Do you think children are just hardwired? It's just the children don't listen to their parents. It's just hardwired in which case we should never have been punished for

2:15:53it. That's like punishing babies for being short. So why do you think, well, we just bad kids, we just disrespected and didn't listen like, what's your theory as to why we didn't listen to you? Because I wasn't angry enough when I said it's only when I'm very angry. They'll do things do do exactly as I want. Okay. So the reason that we didn't listen to you is that you weren't aggressive or abusive or violent enough. She would never say yes to this, but I think it's actually true. Okay. No, that's I mean, we'd find okay. So we'll try to find another whole. Yeah, she tried to find another well, I wouldn't call it abusive. It's the only thing that work blah blah blah. Okay. So then I would say, do you think that children modeled their behavior after their parents to some degree? In other words, do you think the children in Japan grow up speaking Japanese and kind of emulating their parents and children in Greece grow up speaking

2:16:54Greek and emulating their parents to some degree? Do you think that children copy to some degree the behavior of their parents? Do you think that's true? Of course. Okay. Fantastic. Now, can you think of times in my childhood or the childhood of my three brothers and sisters? Can you think of times in our childhood when you deeply, empathetically and genuinely listened to us? Because mostly I remember you giving orders and being impatient. How many times did you listen to us? Like so for instance, what we started off this conversation with was with what we started this conversation with was me saying I asked you for more one on one time and you didn't listen. Do you remember that? Yes. Okay. I don't remember you listening to me. I remember you giving orders. I remember you being impatient. I remember you being bloody handed wearing gloves being stressed. Tense frustrated. My grains taken you out for a couple of days at a time. What I don't remember

2:17:57is you sitting down and listening to us. Like how you enjoying things, what's good, what's bad, what's what's wrong? What could I do better as a parent? How are you enjoying the family life? What would you like to see that could be better or different? I don't remember. I don't remember at all. Like one instance, this is not just over the course of our childhood. This is the course of my entire 35 year existence. I don't remember you listening to your children. Really listening. Like asking open-ended questions, getting feedback and changing your behavior. So since that's the case and I'm not going to be gassed it on this, you didn't listen to us or to me anyway. I'm sure it's the case with the other kids. So maybe we didn't listen to you because you didn't model listening. To anyone, who did you listen to? You ordered around the kids at school. You ordered us around. I don't think dad listened to you very much because he just kind of ignored us and was offered his own semi-artistic world doing his weird and political things. But why would we listen to you

2:18:58if you didn't listen to us? That would be like asking us to speak Japanese. What you don't even speak Japanese. Do you see the problem? And now I'm trying to get you to listen to me now and you're just lying and making things up and apologizing and manipulating it and insulting me. You're not listening. Even now. Even now you don't listen. And then you have the nerve. You have the absolute goal. To say, well, for some mysterious fucking reason, my children didn't listen to me. It's like me punishing my daughter for not speaking Japanese when I never speak Japanese to her. It's a mystery. Why doesn't she speak Japanese? No way to know. Do you see the problem? Yes. So why don't you listen to people? And here I come up to you. And I got punished. I got punished for not listening to you. So what should your punishment be for not listening to me for 35 years? And in particular in this conversation, I'm just curious. I got beaten with a carpet beater. I got screamed

2:20:03at. I got yelled at. You got a sweaty face veins in your temple. Blood on your hands. Literally blood on your hands. I got screamed at and beaten when I didn't listen to you. So I'm just curious, given that people should be violently assaulted for not listening. What should your punishment be for not listening to your children? Just out of curiosity. And what should dance punishment be? For not listening to his children. Because he didn't even ask his questions. I don't think she can sit through this conversation. Well, I would simply say, Mom, I had to sit through beatings as a child. You sit down and listen to this damn conversation. I saw you snarling at the kids and you'll come home and say, I yelled at those kids and I told them what's what. And then so you're real tough. You know, you're real tough when it comes to bully your children and beating children. Sit your ass down and listen. Because I can't, if you don't even listen to a tough conversation after beating your children, you're a bully and a coward. That's

2:21:05revolting. If your children can handle being beaten, you can handle 10 minutes of a tough conversation. So sit your ass down and listen up. Because now she's all kinds of frail and oh, oh, oh, right. She's cry bully. Yeah. Yeah. But yes. See, that's repulsive from a male perspective. And I think you need this male perspective because your mother is currently dominating the parenting and separating you from your children. Your mother viewed you and your brothers and sisters as interferences. You view that to some day. Look, I'm not saying it's as bad, obviously. But I'm I want you to really enjoy your parenting. And until you can differentiate with your mother's mindset, what I mean by that is you it as foreign negative and destructive get angry at it. You can't dislodge that, which you don't get angry at. I mean, to take a silly example, like if you get a virus or a bacterial infection or something, you want your immune system to attack it as a foreign disruptive dangerous agent, if your immune system doesn't attack it, then it's really dangerous,

2:22:08like a cancer or something like that, right? And so your mother's mindset where she beats children, screams at children, yells at children, bullies children at school, and then can't handle a difficult conversation. It becomes a liar and a manipulator and insults someone who's already hurt vulnerable. That's repulsive behavior. I'm not saying she's a repulsive person as a whole. I don't know her oven, like that, but but that's gross. That's really gross to say, well, the reason that you didn't listen to your mother is that she didn't listen to you. It's nothing more complicated than that. It was all about her needs, her preference, what she wanted, and you were in the way. But if you listen to your children, they'll tell you what they want and they need, and then when you provide what they want and they need, they will love you and do what you say. I mean, if my wife says I need something, like we need something in the house, I was like, yeah, okay, it's good. I mean, I'm not going to fight her because I love her and you know, she's reasonable. And if I say I need

2:23:08something for the show or what, okay, we'll do that, right? If you listen to your children, they will listen to you, but you have to listen to them first. But your mother, perhaps the reasons for her own trauma or the fact that she got away with it, she didn't listen to you, didn't provide you what you needed. She ran her agenda and you were in the way. Unhappiness in parenting comes from a mismatch between expectations and reality. You chose to have three children under four. And your husband is choosing to work hard when his children are young. My personal belief, my personal belief is that he's going to regret that choice later on because children's personalities get set and stone by about the age of five or so. There's not much time left. If he wants to have more influence on his children, he should take less time working now. Just for a couple of years, I'm not talking for the rest of his life, just for a couple of years. Because if he doesn't have a strong bond with his children, they will be much more susceptible to peer pressure

2:24:13when they hit their scenes. And then all the money that you made now and all the extra time that he's spending at work now, he will spend trying to deal with the fallout of your children going in the wrong direction because of peers. Drugs from obscurity, drinking, whatever, let's go with stealing. But they will be very susceptible to peers because of the lack of a bond. Now, I'll tell you one other thing that I think is true. I cannot prove it. I think it's true. And if it's not true, obviously, discard it. So I think you are underestimating the degree to which your children understand your your less than strong bond with them. You're pulling away from them. Your annoyance with them. Your impatience. You're wanting to do something else, be somewhere else and be interacting with someone else. They know that. They sense that to the very deepest core of their being. So it's called an anxious attachment, which means that your children see, and I'm

2:25:15not saying you have no bond, obviously, right? And again, this is just my amateur opinion. But your children deeply experience your ambivalence about them, which makes them anxious and not want to go away from you and not want to roam. And they need to stay close to you because they're concerned. I'm sorry, go ahead. Yes, I was just completing your shun's. Well, it's an anxious attachment. And you had the same thing with your mother. You didn't experience your mother as deeply loving you. And so you had no bond with her. You didn't respect her. You didn't want to listen to her. So you guys, you know, she says, she says, clean your room. You just do the bare minimum to try and avoid punishment. And right, it's just a game of cat and mouse because there's no deep loving bond there. And so it's a vicious cycle. Because your children are anxious about their attachment, they're clingy and they want to spend time with you and they don't want to go do other things and they don't want to play with other kids because they need to keep circling back to make sure you're still there. And so because of this

2:26:19anxious, anxious attachment, they're clingy and because they're clingy, it's a negative spiral, right? You get you recoil more because they're so close, but the more you recoil, the closer they want to be and the more you recoil. Yes, yes, certainly. And I imagine the same thing kind of happened with your mother as well. But you are the center of their world and they sense your rejection because it is a rejection, right? If you have the sense that, oh, God, get these children off me, get them away from me. I need to breathe. I need to get something done there in the way. Look, I know that you don't think that all the time. I know that's not even, but it's there, right? Yes, it is. It is. So I don't think that you are experiencing what your children are experiencing from that. I mean, what do you think that's like for them? And I know that sounds like a leading question or whatever it is, but what do you think it's like for them to watch their mother recoil and try to get some air away from them and want them to be taken away from her?

2:27:23This you'll reject it. Unimportant, abandoned to some part. That's it. Yeah, to some extent. Unloved. Well, it's more than unloved. It's rejected. If you heard your husband on the phone, talking to a friend of his, he didn't know you were home and you heard him say repeatedly, oh, my God, I've just got to get away from my wife. I just need to get her off my back. Well, how would you experience that? That's one of the most hurtful things you could say, but that's what you're saying. Yes. And that's your children know that. Remember, be said that your mother might not just be high energy. She might also be anxious. Yes. Maybe that's your son too. If your son can't relax, it may be because of a bond issue. If he's restless, if he's and again, this feeds into itself. This is a circular feed. So he's always active and in a sense stressed and tense and wanting more things and wanting to

2:28:26spend more time with you and it can't unwind and so on. So then you get even more wound up and then you get more annoyed with him, which makes him reacting that way more and so on. He gets more active because he's anxious, which makes you kind of project him a bit and then he gets more anxious, which means more active and then he wants to cling to you more because he's anxious and then you reject him more to see how this plays. Yes, I do. I do. Your mother should have facilitated your relationship with your father so that it was far, far, far better. Your mother should never have accepted your father, rejecting you and your siblings as children. Your mother should have sat your father down and said, no, you're your dad, like let's just talk about this. You've got to show interest in your kids. It's not optional, but she didn't. Yeah. And because she didn't draw your father more into parenting, she got overwhelmed and then kind of rejected her kids to some degree, which then cost her kids to act up, which made her more overwhelmed at the point, but her hands are bleeding. And here's the thing. One of the most powerful bits in our little role play

2:29:27was your mother saying, I did the very best I could with the resources available to me. You are expected me to be absolutely perfect. That's incredibly revealing because if your mother did everything right, then the only problems can come from where? From our kids. Yeah, from her children being bad. And her children being bad in a way that has nothing to do with her whatsoever. And it's a lie. We can all improve our parenting. You know, I'm a pretty good dad. I mean, I could have done better and those things. I could still be better. I still have conversations with my daughter about that. I mean, but the idea that oh, I did everything right. That's see, when people say I did everything right, they're getting ready to attack you because they can't possibly be a fault. So if there are any problems, it's got to all be you. That's a horrible, horrible, horrible burden to put on children. My mother used to make this joke. And you know,

2:30:27when people make the same kind of joke over and over again, it's because they're trying to tell you something. My mother used to make this joke. She said insanity is hereditary. We get it from our kids. Oh, wow. I mean, it's a very powerful statement for my mother who ended up in an institution and insane asylum. I had to very powerful statement for her to make because she felt she did everything right. So she felt she did everything right in her life, but everything went wrong in her life, which means other people are sabotaging her. Her children, the doctors, her bosses, my dad, her ex-husband. If she's doing everything right and everything's going wrong, she's going to get really angry at someone, right? You know, if I got my car maintained and then the brakes failed, somebody must have cut the brake lines. Somebody's getting me, someone's out and then you get unleashed all of this aggression. Have you asked your children about their experience of you as a mother?

2:31:28What do you like that mommy does? What do you dislike that mommy does? What's your favorite mommy? What's memories that are a little more difficult? What would you like me to do better? What would you like me to do? Less of or more of? What's your favorite thing? What's your least favorite thing? What do you like the most? What do you like the least? You know, you can have this with an intelligent four-year-old almost, right? Have you asked your children for feedback on your parenting? Yes, yes. And I've asked my almost four-year-old, and depending on the day or how the day went, sometimes, I remember the last one when this was two days ago, when this episode happened. I asked him, so how should I have gone about it? What was it you liked about it? All I got out of him really was him saying, he doesn't like it when I'm angry. When I'm angry at him. Okay, and how often would you say you get angry with him? I'm really like this. I do get impatient with him, I would say every day,

2:32:34because of something like, yeah, but it's usually not strong, it's just some impatience. Okay, sorry, so hang on. Give me an example of impatience, and I appreciate you going along on this, but I think it's really important not just for you, but to remind me and everyone as well. But what is it that you find impatient? Yes, impatience, bedtime routine. I'm trying to my husband takes maybe the middle one and gets him ready for pajamas, brushing his teeth, all these things, and I do it with the oldest one, and then he doesn't want to pee. And I tell him that in order for him to not pee his bed at night, we need to pee to make sure our bladder is empty, blah, blah, blah. And it's just so much discussion about him not wanting to pee, and I want him to be like, okay, well, I'm not going to do your bedtime routine. You have to go to bed yourself if I don't pee. And I get upset because I'm just like, this is taking too long.

2:33:36The other boy is ready to be put down, and he's just we're out there having discussions about him being like, it's sorry, but why this is already in trouble? Why doesn't he want to pee? I mean, I think I know, but what does he say? He doesn't want to pee. He just says, he doesn't want to pee mama. So is it that he has to pee, but doesn't want to? Yes. Okay, so why would he oh, if he doesn't know the exact reason or who doesn't want to say it? What's your theory as to why he knows he needs to pee, but he doesn't want to pee? Why does he sometimes have that battle of him peeing? I don't know, sometimes I actually like he wants to be in control of the things he does. He doesn't want me to do that. Well, I would say I get all of that, but I mean, that's that's natural. That's every every kid wants to be more in control. Every person wants to be more in control. So that's not specific to this. My guess would be, okay, so what happens after he pee? Well, he gets to he goes to bed. Yes, he goes to bed. So if he doesn't hang on, so if he doesn't

2:34:39pee, he gets to keep arguing and chatting with mom. Yes, even his mom is very annoyed at him at that point. No, no, but she'd rather have that than go to bed. Yes, I'd buy that. Okay, so it's because he wants to not go to bed that he doesn't want to pee. Correct. Okay, so then the question is why doesn't he want to go to bed? I assume because he's not tired. He can be dropped tired, like he can be so tired. It's jaunting, but he doesn't want to go to bed because mom, I'm not tired. I want to go out and play some more. Okay, so then the question is he's so a lot of times kids don't want to go to bed if they unsatisfied with the day. In other words, if the day has not been, you know, this sort of standard thing where kids go to Disneyland or they have the greatest day ever or whatever and they just pass out at the car and the way home and just carry them up and you put them to bed. I'm not saying every day can be like Disneyland, but children often will not want to

2:35:41go to bed if there has been something dissatisfied about their day. And I'll give you another example. You know how in marital couples they'll often say, don't go to bed, Matt. I'm sure it's been happened on occasion where you've had some conflict with your husband. It hasn't been resolved, and it's pretty tough to go to bed, right? Yes. Because you kind of want to resolve the conflict and have the day end on a positive note, right? Yes. So a lot of times children don't want to go to bed if they've had a difficult or fractious or stressful day where they stressed out mom because they sense that there's a conflict that needs to be resolved or a problem that needs to be resolved and it's not being resolved. And so it's, I'm sorry. That's never really that. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm just saying I'd never made that connection, but yes. Yeah. So a lot of times children just want to stay up because they want today to end on a positive note. They don't want the day to end in something where there's still some conflicts because then the concern is that by things not being resolved, it's going to be worse tomorrow. And then of course for children,

2:36:42the big fear is if things are going bad with mom, and they don't know how to make them better, but they're just going to get worse and worse. It's an evolutionary thing. Where, if I'm having problems with my mom or she sees to be impatient or upset or tense or unhappy or aggressive or short tempered or impatient, if she's just sort of mad at me as a whole, or she's viewing me as a negative, that's really stressful for children from a clear evolutionary standpoint, right? Which is that from an evolutionary standpoint, you know, resources were short and it was tough to have the kids died. And so every child was desperate for the parents to have a positive relationship with the child because this is partly why for your mother, her father's favoritism was so stressful because evolutionarily, this is why your son's fight, right? This is why they can't share. Because we evolved in a situation of almost constant death, disease, starvation, winter, predators, all this kind of stuff, right? So your children are

2:37:44very primitive. They don't know anything about the modern world. They think that we live in the stone age. I'm not kidding about this. Like they think that their saber-toothed tigers just around every bush. They think that they have evolved for a place of starvation, war, disease, plague, pestilence, winter freezing, danger. One, you know, one cut gets you killed. Like they have evolved in, as all human beings and all animals do in a very stressed and stressful and dangerous environment. That's how we've evolved, right? Now getting that to cool down for the modern world means that they will read how dangerous the world is based on what? What is their primary way of finding out how dangerous the world is? How dangerous, how stressed is Mama? How dangerous is it perceived by the caretakers? How stressed is Mama and how distant is Dad? So if your husband is working 56 hours a week and doing his sports, his swimming stuff as well, if you're stressed,

2:38:51if you're anxious, if you're tense, your children will interpret that as we live in a dangerous environment. And then you say, oh, you should go play somewhere else. You need to be a little bit further away from Mama because I'm feeling a little claustrophobic, right? So you're signalling to your children that the world is very, very dangerous and also please go a little further away from me. If you want your children to be comfortable exploring, they need to have the experience of the world as a safe place, if that makes sense. Absolutely. But you, I think, by being stressed and tense and can't turn your head and migraines and, you know, jaw clenching and frustration and all of that, I think you're signalling that the world is dangerous. And if you're going to signal to your kids that the world is dangerous and that there's death around every corner and then you say, I don't know why they're not more independent of me. I mean, imagine if you were on some tour of the

2:39:52Amazon and the guide kept saying, you know, well, there's poison frogs and there's panthers and there's wild boars and there's mosquitoes that will give you dangerous diseases. And then now, what I want you to do is wander off the path and go explore the woods. What would you think? Nothing's else to stay right here. I think I'll stay right here. And then he's like, my god, these tourists are so clingy. Why don't they ever go off on their own? It's like, because you keep telling them about how dangerous the jungle is. So where's the danger coming from in your mind? Where's the danger coming from? I mean, your mother, of course, by beating you and by being stressed and screaming and, you know, because if our parents are stressed, it's either because the world is dangerous or they're kind of crazy. Do you know what I mean? Now children can't just say, well, it must be that my parents just kind of crazy. I mean, because that's not good, right? It's really tough for children to think, well, for the next 15 years, I'm going to be under the care custody and

2:40:54control of a historical woman who imagines there are predators when they're on to any. That's pretty pretty scary. So if the parents are stressed, the children assume the world is dangerous. Now, the world that your mother grew up in was very dangerous in that her father pulled the gun on her mother, right? Yes. So legitimately dangerous and terrifying worlds, right? And the problem is, is that when you're used to danger, if it's not around, you'll invent it. That's where perfectionism comes from. Perfectionism comes from the invention of predators when there aren't any predators. Our mind will make up problems if we don't have problems. And I'm not saying perfectionism is inevitable because if you confront and say it wasn't the world that was dangerous, it's my parents who dysfunctional, then the world can become safer and you can adjust to that. Perfectionism is when you're so used to stress and danger that you start inventing problems like the pillows aren't on the right place or what was it you said about your children wanting to drink their soup,

2:41:58right? Yes. Oh no, they're tracking soup around the house. Come on. That's not a big deal. I know. Oh no, they got it on the carpet. Well, you know what? You've got kids, your carpets toast anyway. Like the idea that you're going to try and keep nice carpets and have three children under four is deranged. Not saying you're deranged, but the idea is crazy. Like your carpets let them go. Everything your carpets are gone, your couches are gone, the countess will be messy, they'll be fingerprints everywhere. God forbid you have one of those metal-fronted fridges. Oh my God, there's a smudge. So everything you have is already gone. You should just resign yourself to that and they're going to track food all over the place and it's going to be crust, your house is going to be crusty for 10 years. That's just a fact. Trying to fight that is, right? So your mind is inventing the standard called perfectionism or things need to be neat and tidy. So that you are in a situation of stress and danger because you drop it a situation of stress

2:43:03and danger because your mother drop it a situation of stress and danger. Which is why I pointed out if one of your children got desperately sick and then got better, you'd be like, oh my gosh, I'm never going to get mad at my kid again. I'm so relieved. I'm so thrilled. Like if your kid gets lost to them all and then you find them, you're so thrilled and happy and relieved and all of that because then you're a situation of safety. So why are you in a situation of danger? Because you make excuses for your mother and when you make excuses for your mother, then you make her stress and danger normal. Not, well, my mother chose to pretend to be close to a guy who pulled a gun on her mother was a rampant alcoholic, a womanizer who forced his wife to serve drinks to his mistresses. In other words, a complete asshole sadist. So your mother embraced a dangerous personality, a toxic, violent evil personality and treasured it. And you are also, I'm not saying that your mother is as bad as her father. I get all of that or her mother for that matter who also seem kind of cruel

2:44:04by favoriting having so much favoritism with the younger sibling. But what I am saying is that you are embracing a toxic personality structure and that's where the danger is coming from. You have not had those tough conversations with your mother and I'm not saying you have to have them in person. I'm not saying you have to have them at all. But the consequence is that you're going to grind your teeth and be stressed all the time because there is a danger in your environment and that danger is coming both from your mother and your father and that your mother is constantly to beat you as a child for not doing the right things. And then she lies and manipulates whenever she's confronted which makes her a bully and a coward, a manipulative bully which is really dangerous for your personality structure is dangerous to have around your children if it's not understood. And so when we first started talking about your mother and you made up all these excuses that's your mother talking. I'm not responsible and if your mother is not responsible then you were just a bad kid, my friend. You were just a bad kid. You just did bad things. You didn't listen to you wrong and you were bad. In other words, if there's any conflict between the parent and the child,

2:45:10the parent is perfect and the child is at fault and then you find yourself getting frustrated and angry at your children on a regular basis because of that paradigm. Your mother was at fault. You and your three siblings were perfect. Perfect. Children don't do things that are wrong. Children are like saying a baby, the peace in your, the peace in your face by accident is like doing something malicious. No, it's just being a baby. Children are perfect. Children don't do anything wrong particularly when the toddlers and so on, you know, the age of reason used to be about the age of seven or eight or something like that and did there some beginning of moral responsibility around that age. But your parents blamed you. Your father didn't say, I am selfish and narcissistic and only think about my own needs. He didn't say that. He said, well, the children just aren't that interesting. Not I'm too selfish to take interest in something other than my own particular preferences. So your father said, you're boring. Not I'm deficient in empathy and I'm

2:46:13a bad father because he was a shitty father to ignore you guys until you're mid teens. That's appalling. And your mother didn't say, I manufactured my own stress because of my own terrible childhood that I did not deal with. I became a liar and a manipulator and full of self pity and I blamed my children and I didn't listen to them. I blamed my children for problems in the household. I didn't listen to my children and then I punished them for not listening to me, which is kind of psychotic and evil in many ways. It's so dissociated, right? How dare you punish your children for not listening to you when you've never even modeled listening to your children? Again, that's like punishing your children for not speaking Japanese when you've never exposed them to Japanese. It's kind of crazy and we are, it's kind of malicious, repulsive. And I'm not saying that whole essence of your mother or anything like that, but that is the challenge that you have. That in conflicts between children and parents, you have a paradigm where the parents are never self-critical. All they do is blame the children. And this is why when confronting your mother in

2:47:14the roleplay, she became manipulative and destructive immediately that there was no hesitation. She said she didn't do anything wrong and then she just apologized, which again, is complete contradiction. She also said, oh, well, I did everything the best I possibly could. You have a standard of perfection, which is to attack you and insult you for pointing out a relatively mild deficiency. We didn't even get the beating stuff. We just talked about her not making one on one time with you despite you repeatedly begging for that, which is a perfectly reasonable quest for any child to make. So you have an expectation implanted in your head from your mother that you have to wrestle with and take down, which is that if there's a conflict between the mother and the child, the child is at fault. The mother is quote, perfect. And because of that expectation of perfection, you are going to immediately have conflict with people. Like if I had a standard in every colon show, especially for people who were long-term listeners, you know, that they shouldn't do things like immediately excuse their parents' bad behavior,

2:48:16which, you know, I could have a standard after 21 years, or that they should never laugh about anything that's genuinely tragic and sad, or, you know, they should never give me half answers, they should... If I had that standard, I'd just get mad at everyone who called in and there'd be no colon shows, right? I have to sort of say, okay, well, I'd work with people at the level they're at and work. And as, you know, my level is not perfect at times either, obviously. But if I had a standard of perfection, it would just generate endless amounts of conflicts with people. You don't have the right to have a standard of perfection because you're not perfect. And the idea that your mother had a standard called perfectionism when she beat her children with carpet beaters is insane. I mean, it's so deeply disturbed, I can't even tell you. If you want to be a perfectionist, read some fucking books on parenting, not you, your mother, right? If you want to be a perfectionist, then become aim for perfection in parenting, which means not ignoring your children's legitimate requests for one on one time, not beating them, screaming at them and so on,

2:49:16and blaming them for not listening when you've never, in fact, listened to them. Because perfectionism is a kind of humility. Sorry, it's an absence of humility. Perfectionism is just vanity. Perfectionism is when people say, well, I have the right to demand perfection from others. And the unspoken corollary always is that I'm perfect myself, therefore I have the right to demand perfection from others. And that vanity means that the people who are quote perfectionists are actually just very aggressive because they assume that they're perfect. As your mother said, hey, I did everything just right. I did everything right. That's an insane amount of vanity. And again, it flows downhill like like soul eating lava. It flows downhill because if your mother has the right to be a perfectionist, it's because she's already perfect, which means in any conflict with her children, it's her children who are at fault and must be punished. That creates a lot of stress and tension. And you end up with children who don't particularly like her respect you. And then you get even more frustrated because, oh, my children, don't listen. It's like, well, it's just the inevitable consequences of making excuses for

2:50:22yourself and imagining that you're perfect. And again, I'm talking a lot more about your mother than you, but I would say that would be my relatively unbrief summary, if that makes sense. Absolutely, absolutely. I hear you. I... So what would you say last thing? What would you say to your children? If this is true, if this is a reasonable approach. And again, listen, I needed lots of tweaks on my parenting. I'm fine from perfect. So I say this down to the trenches with you. I'm not trying to at all be a perfectionist or say that there's terrible things that you're doing or anything like that. I want to be clear about that. But if your children have got the impression that you find them annoying or distracting or, you know, look, it's always going to happen from time to time. I get all of that, right? But if they have a feeling of impatience or frustration or distance from their mother, what would you say to them to put their minds and hearts at ease? What would you say? I'm sorry. I'm... This is... So imagine you're...

2:51:25This is a cancer stress, right? Like your kids are stressed. And maybe they're a little clingy because they feel... They feel your impatience and your rejection at them from time to time. And what would you say to them to put their hearts at ease? Imagine that, you know, it's your eldest, your middle, or, you know, when you're younger, it's older. And what would you say to them? How would you explain your impatience and sometimes distance and hostility? It's me. It's a problem I have with myself. It's a flaw within me. I need to be the one to calm down. I'm not frustrated at them. I'm frustrated with myself and my own child. Okay. Well, I'm frustrated with the child within me and not with them because they're not doing anything wrong. They're just being normal, cute, little toddlers. And I should adjust my expectations. That was very passionless. Try it again. This is your kids' happiness and security on the line.

2:52:26Throw some emotional energy at it. I... I'm very sorry. No child should feel like they're... they're being a source of frustration because I felt that and... And it's left me... It's left some scars on me. So I certainly don't want my children to feel like they're lacking in their... they're the cause of my stress. I'm trying to... I'm trying to readjust my expectations of life and of what to expect from toddlers. They're not a fault. They're just... Little kids are going to understand. I'm trying to readjust my expectations of life. All right. Come on. Speak at their levels. Speak at the level of a kid. Because this is really what you want your mother to say to you. So go ahead. Sorry. Yes. Okay. I'm sorry. You're... you're only four. You're only four and I can't have all these high expectations of

2:53:27a child that's only four. I... I'm going to try to be a bit more present. I'm going to try to... to embrace the chaos to... to not expect things to go right always. It hurts my heart. Mommy, it hurts my heart when you're tense and angry. I feel sad and scared and it happens a lot. I'm sorry. I am tense and scared. I... I'm sorry. Because I'm not in control of everything, right? I can't. I'm sorry. Okay. I'm sorry. You're tense and scared and that's totally understandable. I'll try to be there. I'll try to be there with you. So take my hand and we'll clean up the mess together. Instead of me cleaning it up. I'm sending him away while I'm cleaning up the mess.

2:54:28I mean, you could call the mess. You can also call the... we used to say this in my family. Footprints are fun. But anyway, go on. Sorry. I'll try to involve you more in my tasks. So instead of telling you to go away while I do laundry, I'll try to do it with you because I love your company and I... and I shouldn't be waiting for my schedule to be free for me to enjoy your company. But mommy, if you love my company, why do you seem so tense a lot? Because I'm just waiting for the next... this happen to occur. That's why I'm so tense. Because I expect... Oh, so you view me as a source of mishaps, problems. Yes, and that's what that's what four-year-olds do. I'm sorry that I caused so many mishaps in your life, mommy. And I remember when I was a child, I was always... I was always spilling. I was always...

2:55:29I remember dropping plates and being beaten for dropping plates when I unload the dishwasher. And it shouldn't be like that. Wait, you got... hang on, mommy. You got beat by who? Yes, and I'll make sure... psych grandma, and I'll make sure it never happens to you. Wait, grandma... No, no. Grandma, beat you? Yes, she did. She did. Many times. And I was so scared of her. And then I got so angry at her. I resented her so much. But you seem so nice to her, I don't understand. I... I told her never... okay, I can only dodge that question. I mean, should we be nice to people who beat us? No, no, no, no, no. But you are? Because she adds so many positives to my life now. And she's not a... I'm not scared of her anymore. And she's adding so much...

2:56:30Oh, so people can beat you if they're nice to you later. If they're helpful later. Yeah. Yeah. Those... they're promised never to do it again. But I'm missing an apology. I'm waiting for Grandma to... But Mom, if she can't beat you now, you're big. Exactly, and I have you. That's why she doesn't do it anymore. Well, it's not because she thought it was wrong, but because she couldn't. Because you got to... Yes. Yes, yes. That's exactly how it stopped. And I should be confronting her, but I'm scared. Well, sure. I know I would be scared if my best friend beat me up too, but I'm not sure I could be super nice to him. But she takes you guys and you love her and... You're doing so well with you guys. She's helping us. I didn't know she beat you, Mommy. I'll make sure no one ever beats you. That's not the point. I don't know what to feel about, Granny now.

2:57:32I'm going to talk to her. Also, why doesn't Granny show any interest in us? Because he's so... He's so self-absorbed. I don't know what self-absorbed means, Mommy. Yeah, okay. Why doesn't she show interest? Because he's not interested. He doesn't... He doesn't know how great a person you are, and you're a better off. You don't need to impress him. You're a better off without... With how do you mean your life anyway? So, I'm better off without Granny. Granddad. Yes. But you keep him in your life. I'm confused, Mommy. Granny had his self-absorbed, which I don't really understand, but it sounds bad. Maybe like selfies. Yeah, because... So, Granny had his self-absorbed and Grandma beat you. And only stopped because you got big. Yeah. But they are family, so... Oh, so you can't...

2:58:33People, if you're family. And they... They can't hurt me now. No, you can't. You can't. No, no, but you can beat people if you're family. When they're little, and they can't fight back. But once they can fight back, you should stop beating them. And then... It's good because they're family. So, I can hit my brother because he's family. Now, when he gets bigger and I can't hit him anymore, I should stop because he could fight back or he might hit me back or something like that. And then he has to forgive me even if I'm not really sorry. So, why... Hang on, why do you tell me not to hit my brother? Now, I'm really confused. Sorry, I don't understand, Mommy. With family, I should be able to hit him, right? Absolutely. No, there's... No, no one is allowed to hit. No, but Mommy hit and you just said it was fine because it's family and she's stuck. So, I'll stop, Mommy. Like, down the road. Yeah, listen, when he gets big, he could end up bigger than me. I don't know. I'll stop. Yeah, sure. Because you know, he just doesn't listen to me sometimes.

2:59:33No one's allowed to hit you. And if they do, then they should be genuinely sorry and promise never to do it again. Otherwise, you don't... But I thought you said it in your own way. I wasn't really sorry. You just got bigger. Yeah. I should come in front of her because we shouldn't be having her in our life if she's not sorry. Well, I have a good idea. I have a good idea. So, your mom, maybe she's a little bit sorry about what happened in the past, right? Yes. Okay. Now, would you like Granddad to show more love to your kids? Of course. Okay. And just, I mean, I see that you listened to Daddy and Daddy listens to you, which is good to see. Does Granddad listen to Grandma? Does he love her? Does he respect her? I'm not sure. Well, you've known him for a long time, mommy. I mean, what do you mean you don't know?

3:00:34I'm sorry. I think they love each other by keeping out of each other's hair and they make good... They're cheese-gray things together. So, they love each other even though she hits children or hit children and he's selfish. So, you can still love people who are like mean and violent and also who are very selfish. No, you can't. You can't. Mommy, my head is spinning. You just told me they love each other and they're mean and selfish. Because if Granddad listens to Grandma, then you could just ask Grandma to have Granddad show more interest in us. Because you said that would be good for you. I like it. I mean, I'm a boy. I'd like to know my Granddad more. And so, you could ask for a favor from both of your parents, right? Because look, if they were mean to you, if they're selfish, they hit you and so on, then they owe you, right? I mean, they owe you something. If you ask them for a favor, like Granddad's got to show more interest in the kids and

3:01:36play with this and get to know us and chat with us. And I don't know. Whatever Granddad's do, I don't really know because he doesn't really see us. But that would be a way of knowing if they're really sorry, right? Like if they'll do you like a reasonable favor, do you something that's fair, right? So you could ask Grandma and Granddad, you could sit them down and say, listen, Granddad, like Dad didn't really show much interest in his kids. But you know, I want to fix that and you kind of owe me for being mean to me when I was a kid. So I want you as your Granddad, I want you to come and spend a lot more time with my kids. And if they're sorry, they'll, they do that, right? Yes. Okay, so you should ask them that. Then that's a way of knowing if they're sorry. And if they promise but don't do it, then they're not really sorry. And if they don't even say they'll do it, then they're certainly not sorry, right? Yeah. Okay, so maybe that you could do. Yes, that's a, that's a good way of confronting, I think. That's a, oh, mommy, can I be there for that?

3:02:38Or would you do that like without us? We get to be there for it if you want. Yeah, I mean, I'd love to see what Granddad did when you said to him, spend more time with your kids. I'd love to see his face. I don't, I don't even know what that would look like. Maybe like a lemon. I don't know. Okay, so when should we do that? Let's do together next next time we see him. No, but, but when? Next Tuesday. Okay, next Tuesday, we're going to go over. And we're going to ask Granddad to be nicer. Yes. That's going to be very exciting. Yes. Yes, to be involved more, to play more, to be interested. I think I'm interested. My whole brain is a playground. So sorry, just to break out of the role play, I think that you can see all of the logical problems you have with these arguments, right? And I'm not saying this is any fault of yours, but it is an inevitable consequence of these double standards, right?

3:03:41Yeah, I, I, yes. And so a lot of the stress comes from contradictions. If you have one standard that you're imposing on your children, that is the opposite from the standard that you hold your parents to, that's stressful because it's push pull at the same time. It's like if somebody puts a gun to your head and says go north and south at the same time, that's really stressful because you can't even obey, right? Yeah. So yeah, the last point I wanted to make was the, the, the, the sort of mental knots we tire ourselves into to justify the behavior of, the bad behavior from people while saying like, well, I've never accept that for my kid, but it's okay with my parents. Like that's, that's also a source of stress, I think. It says contradictions are really tough. And I'm sorry, this man. I know we've gone, I know we've gone crazy long. I also know that it's quite an, I know, I was just for you to have an adult conversation in the middle of Kidland. But this is, I mean, I knew good three and a half hours. Is there anything else that you wanted to mention?

3:04:41Or obviously, if you happen to chat again, but I know we've had a good old chunk of stuff that you want today. I think this is, this is really, really helped. We are currently, you know, I, I love babies. And now my, my littlest one is nine months old, soon 10. And we're sitting on the decision of another, I'm 35, I've just turned 35. I promised my husband four kids. I might, I might have five in the tank, who knows, but now we're sitting on the decision of when to have the next one. And I said, I like, I'm not trying to add more stress, but I want more kids. Like, but I'm not perfect, right? It does happen that I yell at my kids. And I'm sitting on the decision, like, do I take my UID out now? And, and we might have another kids in less than a year. So I again, do, I do another, but I can't, I can't just wait.

3:05:46I'm, I'm sitting on this decision and I kind of want to. Right. No, of course, yeah. So, I mean, certainly, right, yeah, sorry, certainly right now, it seems like it's not the right time, because there's a lot of stress and tension and you're, you got migraines and, oh, sorry, headaches and, and you can't turn your neck and teeth grinding and so on. So what I would do if I were in your shoes is, first of all, be very uncomfortable, because I'm sure they're, they're small. But what I would do in your shoes is try and it does have, as a funny old movie called Parenthood, which is sort of about trying to control versus just letting things roll. So children are pure chaos. There are a lot of fun and they, they will mess up your house. They, they fingerprints everywhere. They draw on the walls. You know, they tread dirt onto the carpets. And that's just, that's the nature of things. It's like, it's like getting married to your husband and then saying, well, what do you mean I can't sleep with my personal trainer? Well, that's crazy. It's like, and getting angry and upset about it. It's like, well, hopefully you guys have a monogamous marriage and that's the deal, right? So, uh, mess and kids and chaos and they'll be all over you and I guarantee you, man,

3:06:51you will look back upon this time when they needed you desperately and we're all over you. When they become teenagers and, you know, maybe a little cynical and surly and sarcastic and so on. You'd be like, oh, I remember that time when I was the son of the moon to them and you'll look back with great fondness upon this time. But, um, I would say that as long as you're fighting the reality of having four kids under four, three kids under four, if you're fighting that and frustrated about that and wanting things to be different, it's probably not a great thing to add another to the mix. If, however, you can say, ah, I invited three chaos agents into my house, you know, tiny lunatics with their own agenda. I invited them all into my house and, you know, like it's, it's like inviting people over for dinner party and then being upset that they ate more food than you normally would. That's the deal of having a dinner party. And so, yeah, I would say, you know, there probably is some anger at your mother to work through because right now the anger at your mother

3:07:53has been transferred to your children because they're a safer object, right? In the same way that your mother's anger at the world was transferred to you and your three siblings because you were a safer target. And I'm not saying that you're the same as your mother. There's just a couple of patterns that are probably overlapping a bit. But I would say that embrace the chaos, it is going to be crazy. It is going to be to arrange. And look, I would put my daughter down. She did two naps. Then one, and I put my daughter down for a nap and I'd want to go do a show. And I sometimes would even be in a calling show because I thought I had more time and then she'd just wake up. Now I could sit there and say, oh my god, I can't even get a call and show. Oh, blah, blah, blah. Or I can just say, look, I chose to do a show with a kid in the house who could wake up any time. It's not her fault. She just woke up, right? And so, um, if you have an agenda outside of parenting when your kids are young, you will be forever suffering and frustrated. Your job is to roll with, manage and enjoy the chaos of little kids. But if you have an agenda outside of that, then you're going to just shape it. And the kids will

3:09:01win. And the shaping will escalate because the kids are going to just do their chaotic thing, right? And we say chaos, but it really is just originality, creativity and, and they're not polite in the way that adults are and so on, right? So, uh, if you can say, look, my, my sole purpose is to enjoy these kids company and roll with it. There's no other agenda. You know, frankly, I hate to sort of put it this bluntly. Fuck the laundry, fuck the carpet, fuck the mess. It doesn't matter. Mess can be tied to that. Copets can be replaced. You will never get these years back with your kids. And they are foundational to your whole relationship and their entire personalities for the rest of their lives. The mess doesn't matter. Drinking soup from the bowl, enjoy, sit down with there and drink soup with them. Oh my god, there's going to be a mess. Who cares? Who cares? What you want is for your kids to get older and remember you is the fun mom who sat down and drank soup with them rather than the mom who was like, Oh, you can't track the soup, right? Because the carpet doesn't matter. The carpet is going to be tossed out thrown out. It's going to be rolled up and set

3:10:03far too. The carpet doesn't matter. The mess doesn't matter. And I'm not saying, lives like a pig, I you need hygiene and, you know, you go to get the dishes done and so on, right? But it doesn't matter because you've got a goal to get things done and your children are in the way. But if you reorient that mindset and say, my goal is to enjoy these precious couple of years with my kids and to hell with the mess. In fact, embrace the mess. You know, like, I can't have a cat and then get in rage that the cat sheds here. Like, that's the deal. If you don't want to have hair, don't get the cat. But you have, you have them now. So if you change that focus and say, my goal is to roll with and enjoy these wild, fun, chaotic, kind of crazy time with my, with my kids, right? Then then that's your goal. Then you can't, you can't fail. You can't miss. If your goal is to get a bunch of stuff done despite your kids, then that will always fail and you'll always be shaping at it. But if your goal is to just like aim at the kids, enjoy the kids presence, enjoy the glorious chaos and and fun and creativity and all of that. First of all, once you really enjoy your kids company,

3:11:06they won't need you as much because right now I think it's an anxious, anxious attachment that they're not sure whether you're going to be there or to band them or I'm not saying you would, obviously, but, but I think that's sort of the baked in deep down stuff that's going on for them. So if you just aim at the kids, rather than aim at a life with your kids in the way, just aim at the kids that that's your job is to just enjoy and embrace and and and so on. And you know, get things done by the nap, especially you can, but then if they get up, it's not an interference. It's not an annoyance. Like you don't have a life to live and your kids are in the way. You have to just throw ego aside and just your kids are the whole deal. Your kids are hit. Start at the beginning and it doesn't mean never get annoyed with them because you know, you need to be honest with them emotionally and occasionally kids can't be annoying and you know, you can express that, you know, you can do that in an affectionate way like, you know, when you were being defensive about your mom, you know, and I was like pointing that out and hopefully in the humorous way, but I was, you know, it's somewhat assertive but without being mean, obviously. So yeah, if you just aim at the kids, man, just embrace the whole thing. Your life is your kids. And if you can get stuff done

3:12:09along the way, fantastic, but if your life is like, I got to keep the place clean. I got to get the Lord through down. I got to do this. I got to do that. I'd there'll be times you got to take them to the dentist or whatever and there's going to be some chaos with that. But aim at the kids, enjoy the kids, embrace the kids. You'll find that it's going to be a huge amount more fun. The kids will be less clingy. They'll be more independent. You'll be more confident and you won't be fighting the stress, intention and frustration all the time. Then then you may be like, hey, man, the more the merrier. You know, it's like if you've ever thrown a party and more people throw a show up, sorry, throw up maybe two, but you know, it's a more the merrier, right? And a big party is better than a small party, but you have to be enjoying the party first if that makes sense. I totally get it. I totally get it. All right. All right. Good. Good. All right. Look, please, please, please keep me posted about how it's going. I would not be averse. Of course, keep it completely private for a picture of your kids. And I really appreciate your time today. Thank you so, so much for all your help. In case you haven't recognized me, my husband and me, we have called in two weeks ago

3:13:13about a having financial decision that we are want to make as a family. And you've helped us make that decision. And I thank you so much for the input you've provided there. But you'll get an update. I appreciate that. I do remember. I just want to keep that part private. So I appreciate it. Keep you posted. If there's anything else I can do, please let me know. Lots of love to you, but thank you so much. Thank you so much. All five of you. All five of you. Okay. Bye.