6505 An Older Boy ****** Me! CALL IN SHOW

0:00I said, hi Stefan, I'm calling in as a 27 year old, can I say my country's where I'm from? Would you? Yeah, that's where I believe that out as well. Okay, yeah. I'm calling in as a 27 year old Australian now living in South Africa. And I want to talk to you about my personality and my lifestyle. I said, I'm intelligent, but I'm living a very unfulfilling life. I have no girlfriend. I'm addicted to pornography. I have no job, except those which I've created for myself. So a small agency, such freelancing job, and a consulting job in the renewable energy industry. I've signed some big contracts, which I only get paid for if I successfully complete the work. And I always assume that if I had big contracts and had big things on the horizon that I'd be able to discipline myself, but even now I find myself wasting time, I'm addicted to YouTube.

1:00I constantly scroll and read the news. I am in a 12 step program for sex and love addiction that I'm not really adhering to it particularly well. And I also binge eats and eats quite ironically with my emotions. I go through periods where I'm extremely diligent. I go to the gym, I go to hot yoga daily, et cetera. But I can't string it together more than a week or so of this consistency at a time. I started taking five events for ADHD about a year ago. I'm not sure how well that's working. I can sit down for about 10 hours and work non-stop. But I still feel unfulfilled. I have no social life. I'm anxious. I'm neurotic. I eat very poorly. I also am living with my brother right now. If I was going to put it uncharitably, I'd say that I'm basically reaching off him,

2:00freeloading off of him. He's the one that pays the rent, pays the mortgage, et cetera. And I wanted to talk to about how to correct all this and find many in purpose in my life. That's fantastic. Very brave, wise to ask for help. I know you're doing it in other areas as well. And to tell me a bit about, I've not heard about this medication regarding ADHD. Can you tell me a bit about that? Yeah, yeah. So I'm an expert in pharmacology. The extent of my understanding is that it's a stimulants of the same general type as the other ADHD medications, so things like Rilland, Adderall, et cetera. I want the lowest dose. It's possible in South Africa. So I never needed anything like this in school. I was an extremely diligent student in high school, and I was quite diligent in university. But as the guardrails, I suppose,

3:05have sort of slowly weakened over time, the institutional guardrails that tell you when to wake up, when to go to school, what's required of you at every stage of your work or your day, as those have slowly melted away as I've gotten older, I've found it very difficult to work, to focus, to structure my day. And so, yeah, about 12 months ago, I went to a psychiatrist. They seem to think that this was ADHD that I've had this all along, and it's only manifesting itself now because the guardrails have come off. I don't know if that's true. I think there's probably quite a big environmental... I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You went to a psychiatrist and they just didn't ask you any particular questions about your childhood history, personal life. It's just like, yeah, you've got this thing here, some pills. Oh, and it didn't manifest before, because reasons.

4:05It's like, yeah, to me, whatever. I mean, I don't even want to get into my opinion about all of that, but go ahead. Sure, sure, sure. No, I definitely sort of understand your... Your... I know, you're really cool of the way that that sort of came to be. You know, they did ask me some questions that I did sort of try to understand me, but at the same time, it's a one hour. I mean, it's not even an hour, it's a 50-minute hour. And I walked out in that very same meeting, that same consultation with a script for Vibance and it cost me, you know, $300. So I'm pretty skeptical of that whole world, I suppose, particularly because I know that so much of my inability to focus is environmental, you know, like having a phone that is constantly ringing, having access to just a constant stream of dopamine, of Uber Eats being constantly available, et cetera.

5:06I'm pretty convinced that it's more environmental than biological, particularly because I was such a fantastic student in high school and even in university. Yes, I got it. And of course, you know, there is that problem when the external conveyor belt of do this, do that stops, then, you know, most of us are kind of at a loss, right? Yeah, that's basically where I find myself. I think, you know, not to, you know, I think for other people, maybe, because they are in a workplace and they have colleagues that they have responsibilities to, they have a structure that have a boss to sit above them and reviews all their work. I think maybe other people would have slightly more structure and more of this sort of guard rail that we've been speaking about. For me, I don't really have that. And I kind of get away with it because I don't have to pay rent,

6:09I don't have to pay mortgage. If I ever, like, really short of money, you know, my parents will help me. And so I don't have those guard rails, and I don't have that hard fall beneath me either. And how old are you? 20, I just turned 28. 20, okay, got it, got it. Well, I'm certainly glad you called and we've got almost two hours. I'm sure we can do some great stuff. And where do you want to start? I mean, you listen to these calls before. And so I'm sure you have an idea of the general structure and process. Where would you like to start? Yeah, I, well, I'm, to be honest, I'm not entirely sure if I want or need like a slap over the back of the head or if I need like deep unpacking of things that have gone on in my life and you know, things that have happened as I've grown up and in my childhood, like form of experiences,

7:10I only know what I need. So maybe, maybe I can just tell you a little bit about, yeah, I don't know, maybe I can just tell you about some of the formative experiences that I've had that sort of got me into the 12 step program that I'm in. So do you see what I did there? It's very subtle. No, I did. So you tell me that you have trouble outside of structure and normally I'm the one who takes charge of these calls. So I wanted to see how you would look outside of structure. Okay. Like I said, you tell me what you want to talk about, right? Sure, sure. And you don't know what you want to talk about. And look, that's totally fine. Of course, if you knew exactly what you wanted to talk about, there wouldn't even really be a need for a call. But you went on to, you know, general life events but you already know your general life events. So knowing the general life events hasn't solved the problem, right?

8:11So again, that's right. I'm not trying to do a sort of bait and switch. I was just kind of curious to see how you would, you know, if you'd have said, you know, well, I've thought about this call. Obviously I booked the call. I've listened to call and shows here's what I want to work on. Or here's what I think we should start. That would be interesting. But the question, sorry, now go ahead. Sorry, I did take, but I did make some notes before the call. And I have those that just sort of general, the general notes about some things that have, I think, shaped me into the way that I am. And I thought that maybe those would be sort of interesting to your problems. You think you've been shaped into the way that you are? What do you, a piece of clay? We're suffering human beings with consciousness and will, power and philosophy. I don't disagree. I mean, I don't just agree with that at all. But I still definitely think that the way that I act day to day depends on things that have happened to me in the past

9:13and the way that my brain chooses to interpret things and things that I choose to run away from and things that I think are scary that other people don't have scary. I haven't said anything about your choices. The events that shape you, the major life things that have you act a certain way, the way that your brain chooses to respond like you're not your brain. And I'm not trying to nag or be annoying, right? But I'm just sort of pointing out that the language that you do is self abdication, things happen to you. Yes. Your brain happens to you, your history. The history, of course, as children, our history just happens to us, right? We don't. And we just try and manage the stimulus that's coming in from our childhoods. Obviously, the peaceful parenting idea is that your child participates in their own childhood and doesn't feel like an object that is acted upon. But that's kind of rare, right? So let me give you a tiny, a tiny little speech here just to maybe jolt you out of feeling like a horse with no rider. Which is that discipline is simply love for our future self.

10:19It's all it is. Discipline is love for our future self, or respect for our future self. So I think of myself when I'm 80. And I say, okay, well, what kind of life do I want to have when I'm 80? Well, I don't want to be frail. I don't want to be weak. I don't want to have brittle bones, right? I want to be sharp. I want to be energetic. I want to be strong. I want to be flexible. And I don't want to be fat because if I'm fat, I'm probably not going to make it to 80. And of course, I think that I'm in possession of this remarkable brain that is kind of a collective thing for mankind, because I sure as heck didn't invent it all myself. And so I have to kind of take care of this brain, which is doing lots of good for mankind. And so thinking of myself at 80, I say, or, you know, I mean, I'm going to be 60 this year. So it sounds like a long way away, but it's less time than I've been married to my wife.

11:20So I have sort of a fact or respect or love, or consideration for my future self. And so hedonism, and I'm not opposed to hedonism. We all need, we all need to have fun. We all need to enjoy ourselves. My life is not this grim slog from here to productivity to the grave. So I'm not opposed to hedonism, and I'm not opposed to fun, and I'm not opposed to people enjoying themselves, of course. There's lots of things that I do that are goofy and fun, particularly as a parent that are somewhat hedonistic. But hedonism as a foundational principle, in other words, your life is sort of founded on what's pleasurable in the moment, that arises out of a kind of despair, a kind of lack of sense of future. So if that, I think it's true, we'll find out in a couple of minutes

12:22whether that's true as a whole. So now, if that's true, then what I would look at in your past is I would look at were there things or events or examples or modeling that occurred that gave you no particular sense of the validity of the future, because you're just, it's like, what you go on a really difficult hike if you've ever done that, a really difficult hike. I don't mind, I like the exercise, I like the heart pounding as I stagger up the hills, I think it's great, but it's not really much fun to go on a very difficult hike for the view, because all you're doing is you're just looking foot by foot, right? I got a, oh, there's something I can climb. Oh, there's a tree root. Oh, there's a step. It's a stone that could be slippery, right? So you're just basically looking moment by moment because I'm doing this challenging hike. I just did one in New Hampshire not too long ago. And yeah, when you get to the top, you get a good view and all of that,

13:23but it's a little bit boring to just do the hike, because it's not like I can be super chatty when I'm breathing hard, and it's not like I'm really enjoying the view, because I'm just looking at this scrolling tapestry of rocks and mud and tree roots and so on. And so that just looking at the moment, not at the big picture, not at the zoom out, and so on, was there any aspect of that when you were a kid? So the question is, when I was a kid, was there any sort of long-term commitment to self-federmists or self-mastery in any field? Is that the question? Well, the people who raised you, aren't your parents? Maybe you have a sibling, so I mean, did they model that kind of affection for the future self? In some ways, definitely. Like parents, I've got two very loving parents.

14:25They were both quite occupied with the financial side of taking care of us and setting up the family, and so they instilled in us that, how important it is to be financially modest and to live within your means and put money aside, so these kind of things definitely. In terms of having a reasoned personality and not letting passion overtake your day-to-day, that was definitely not a conversation in my house. And I think my dad, because he was working basically all the time, my mom was left to race us, and she, because of her own upbringing, she was, I mean, no one is, she was not a perfect model. And so I think a lot of the lessons about moderation

15:29and stick to it, I never really got. And the house was, I would probably describe it as quite, I felt safest when I was away from everyone else in the house, and not because they were necessarily abusive, violent or anything like that. It was just like, life was just much easier to not be around other people. And I think that, I'm completely bewildered here by the number of contradictions in your statement, and I'm not sure if you're aware of them. And again, that's not a criticism, I'm just sort of pointing it out. Okay, so you said you were raised by two loving parents, right? That's right. That you felt safest not being around. Yeah. I mean, just dishearing, right? To hear. Yeah, I love my wife, but being around her is dangerous. Yeah, I am. And I know you're originally Australian,

16:30where you can ride the spiders, but that just seems a little contradictory, right? Yeah, I had a negative, well, I had two sort of negative experiences, which have turned me away from other people, I think. One of those was that I was friends with, I work with all the gory details, but I was friends with an older boy and older neighbor. And when I was around 11 and he was 17, and that turned into, well, that nearly turned into something quite dangerous. And so I removed myself from that situation, but after that happens, I had some kind of intense, as you're on. Come on, man. I mean, okay, okay. If you go to the charge, you say, I mean, great pain and he says, where and you say, somewhere on my left side,

17:31I mean, okay, I'm just going to talk to like, why do you just do what happened with the friend? Yeah. Yeah, okay. So me and my brother and this older boy, we used to play for you games together all the time, we were, you know, we were friends. And after, now, sorry, do you mean online or in person? No, he, well, we would play together in person, like video games and he lived up the street from me. And one day, I, me and my brother went to his house as we always do. And we were playing video games as we always do. And this older boy for some reason, well, he concocted a reason as to why he had to separate me and my brother and, you know, some, no problem with the internet or ethernet cable or something. And so we were alone in this room together.

18:32And he started speaking to me through the game chart, like very, very sexually. And it was quite clear that he was, you know, he had intentions of, I don't even know what to call it. I mean, we're molesting me or having some kind of sexual encounter with me. And it got to the point where I was sitting down on the ground and he was rubbing something on my back. And I knew that something was not right. Sorry, just remind me how old were you and how old was he? I was 11 and he was 17. Okay, like what the hell, man? I mean, how long have you been friends with this creep? For about a year? Okay. So there's a 16 year old boy who's super interested in being friends with a 10 year old boy.

19:33Yeah, I mean, my brother is slightly older than me. But so there's a period of 18. Okay, that's a matter. Okay, I mean, when you were 16, were you interested in hanging out with 10 year olds? Not at all. Of course not. Like what have a living hell? Yeah. How was, how was this? How is this allowed? Yeah, we, did your parents ask any questions? Why does this boy, you know, well, our families, six years older, want to hang out with you? Our families were, they knew each other. They knew that we were all friends. And the way the community was at the time was, you know, back when everyone had like console video games, all the kids would go to someone's house to play video games and then be four or five, six years of age difference. But there'd be five or 10 kids there. And that's kind of how it started. And then as we became, you know, a quarter and quarter closer,

20:36then it would be just me and my brother going to his house. And that's how it, that's how it happened. Okay, did just a bunch of fog. Do you think you've answered anything? I mean, land parties is one thing. If there's five or six kids there, or whatever, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, how many hours a week were you offered this creeps house? Maybe seven or eight hours a week. Jesus. Yeah. I mean, it's weird. I honestly, no, I never thought of it as serious. This is weird. I mean, 60, you remember being a 16 year old boy. So do I vaguely? A 16 year old boy is interested in video gaming with 10 year olds, or do they want to be out there talking to girls? Well, this guy was, this guy was closer to gay,

21:36as we obviously found out, lights it up. Well, what do you say? Obviously, I don't know what you mean. Well, I mean, he was trying to, you know, touch me and molest me. So he, like, so everybody was closeted. Well, no, that's not gay. That's not gay. That's, that's pedophilia. Because gay men want to have sex with gay men. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that would be like saying that a, you know, somebody is heterosexual because he wants to molest a 10 year old girl. Like, no, that's not heterosexuality. That's pedophilia. Yeah. The way that I, it's sort of taken me a long time to untangle all of this. And for a while, I was like, I was thinking, oh my god, this is like a huge traumatizing, you know, life-destroying thing. And then I realized, no, I've not, there's really no, first of all,

22:36there's so many people have it so much worse than an encounter like that. And second of all, you know, I can choose how I sort of interpret this event. And I don't need to make myself a victim necessarily. And so the way that I interpreted that for a long time was, you know, of course, I don't condone what this person did in any way. And I would never want that done to anyone again. But the way that I sort of just became okay with it was like, I just sort of synthesize a little bit. I empathize with this person because he must have been just a confused kid who didn't know what he was doing. He didn't know how destructive it was going to be for me and how much it would hurt me. And that's sort of how I've come to live peacefully with it without letting it sort of take control as it once did.

23:36So he rupt his genitals on your back and that was sort of the end of the encounter. So he did that and then he tried to sort of walk around to face me and then try to make me, you know, underhelp all world. I can, I mean, he tried to get you to oral. Yes, that's right. And then that's when I was like, I was basically frozen up until that point. And then when that happened, I, again, I didn't really know basically anything about sexuality and even pornography. I don't think I'd ever seen it at that stage. So I didn't really know what was happening, but I knew that that was not rights. So I stood up and I ran straight to my brother and I just told him, hey, you know, so and so he just tried to touch me. And my brother was only, I looked two years old and he was only 13 at the time and he said to me,

24:37no, because there's no way that he would, there's no way that he would do that. There's like this, like you must be, you must be mistaking, like you must be wrong. And I said, no, we need to get out of here. And he said, okay, let's go. And we never, we never went back again. Yeah. So why is that the end of the story and not the beginning? How do you mean? Well, God forbid, right? Let's say that you become a father, perhaps as direct result of this call, though not imminently. You become a father and you have an 11 year old boy who ends up in a highly dangerous, sexualized situation. And this thing can go wrong. This kind of encounter can go wrong in so many different ways. Like really badly wrong. I mean, let's say this guy, I mean, you were able to get away, which is good. Obviously, but let's say you'd been a little bit more frozen.

25:40Let's say you'd been 5% light than it could have gotten really bad. And if he is concerned that you might say something then he might preempt it by saying that you tried to grab his genitals and spread that around school. Like it just can go wrong in so many horrible different ways, right? Plus he could have been violent and so on. He could have given you a threat. He could have fallen through on that threat. He could have become a stalker. I mean, these kinds of people are very difficult and dangerous. So if you have an 11 year old boy and go out for bed, right? Something like this happens to him. What do you want him to do? Yeah, well, I, I mean, what I want him to do is tell me so that we can make sure that he's properly cared for. Because obviously it's a very confusing traumatizing, you know, potentially traumatizing staying to happen.

26:41Well, I mean, that's definitely bad and upset. Okay, so so your son comes home and he tells you, this is what happened. This guy was trying to assault me orally and rubbed himself because it is assault right 10 year old can't consent. Yeah. So your son says this and that one. I would, I know I've never really thought about that. I mean, as long as my son is safe, then I would consider either going to the police because, you know, there's our kids in the neighborhood who, you know, this very well could have happened to. Speaking to this kid's parents, I think there is probably the two, two things that I would do. It's often making sure that my son is, you know, okay. Right. And so that would be the beginning of a long tale of protecting other kids. Yeah, I, so I kind of, I repressed this memory

27:46that I'm really, I'm really, I'm really, I'm really, I'm really, I'm really, I'm really, I'm really, I'm really, I'm really, I'm really, I'm really, I'm really, I'm really, I mean, obviously you didn't repress it on the way home and didn't say, sure, nothing happened, right? So you and your brother get home. Yeah, I'm fine. Sync me with, I think I was, I think we kind of just left it with the unspoken understanding that we would never go there again. And that's kind of just the way that it happened here. We didn't tell family, friends, okay, so I didn't tell your parents. I don't know. I'm just, I'm just, I'm not a criticism. Yeah, yeah. It's a genuine question of, because you'd want your son to tell you, right? Yeah. Because you're not telling your parents left other children in severe danger. I'm not blaming you because you're just a kid, right? But I'm just saying that the decision, which would be more on your brother than on you, right? Because your brother's a teen and so on. Sorry, go ahead. Sure. I was going to say he was only three years older than me.

28:46And I think when I told him what happened, I didn't, I didn't have the language or the ability to convey, you know, exactly what was wrong and why what this kid was doing was not right. I just told him like, like something is not right. Like we need to go. And so I definitely don't blame him in any way. I think we just left on the understand that if we just don't go over there again, we're going to be fine. And this guy's obviously not welcome at our house. And okay, so you're over there for like a work day every week, right? And then suddenly it stops and the kid's not welcome. And your house, this young man, right? Yep. So what did your parents say? That's a clue, right? Yeah, they, they, I think after a week or two of us not, you know, communicating with this kid, us not being over this guy's house, um, I think they are also like, oh, like we haven't seen so and so in a while.

29:49And we just said, yeah, like we're just not really, you know, we're kind of the board of, you know, playing, you know, playing the games at his house. So we, we basically just played it off. Um, and you like my parents had, yes, yeah, and you with absolutely essential truths and light to your parents. Now listen, I'm not, I'm not going to fingerwag at kids lying to their parents. It happens, right? And that's fine. So that's not, I'm not like, oh my God, you lied the worst thing ever. But I mean, this very important issue, you lied. And the question is without, you know, again, I'm not trying to judge this, right? But why? Why would you? Why would you lie? Yeah, I mean, I just didn't have the kind of, I think first I didn't have the courage to bring up like a very, very difficult topic with them. I think that's probably the main, the main thing. Um, I think I'm like, why would you need courage to talk about this with your parents?

30:49I mean, if you fell and twisted your ankle and you come home limping, right? And your parents said, oh my God, what happened? I fell and twisted my ankle. I mean, there's something that was a negative experience for you that you would tell them about. I assume, I mean, you wouldn't say what limping, right? So why, and just tell me understand, right? Why was it difficult to tell your parents what this guy did? I think, I think it was a shameful and just confusing experience. And I think I also, you know, frankly, didn't want, I didn't want the attention on myself and I didn't want this kid to, like, I think I was kind of protecting this kid a little bit. Um, not, I wasn't, yeah, I never like, if someone had asked me, um, you know, I never would have been like, oh, no, you know, nothing happened. And he's a great guy. Sorry. If somebody had asked you what, what would they ask you? If someone had said, hey, we, you know, um,

31:52another parent has come to us and said that something happened to their kid, did something happen to you as well. I would never have withheld up information. Yeah, I wasn't, I wasn't protecting him in that way. I just didn't want to cause a big, I just didn't want to, I didn't want to cause a big, okay? Let's, let's stop floundering around here if you don't mind. So the reason you didn't talk to your parents is it would be more negative than positive. That's why kids do things or don't think, do things, right? Right? This is why they want to deserve it rather than more Brussels sprouts because dessert is positive and Brussels sprouts are negative. So the reason you didn't tell your parents is it would be more negative than positive. In other words, it would be more chaotic or problematic or you'd feel guilty or whatever it is, rather than you get comfort, you get sympathy and this fucking creek gets dealt with. Yeah. I think, I think the way that you put it is probably, it's probably right. I mean, I definitely would have gotten care and sit like I would have gotten those those things.

32:53But I just want to avoid the whole chaos aspect and chaos being what? I mean, what, what did you think at 10? Would be the chaos. I mean, this again, open, open ended question. Sure, sure. I mean, I, I think, you know, looking back, I just, you know, I was just a very shy, quiet kid. And I mean, not as shy as I became after this experience, but I just, yeah, I just didn't want to, I don't, I found the whole thing kind of embarrassing and I could have multiple families or adults or, you know, even kids sort of involved in this. It was just easier to, to not do that and to just bear it on my own shoulder. And that's what I, yeah, that's what I did. Okay. Did you ever talk about it with your brother again?

33:55Yes, somewhat recently, actually, probably about two years ago, I came to visit him for all of a day. Obviously, we were, we were living in separate countries. I flew here to South Africa to visit having. And I had this, like, I knew that I really had to say something because I, it was almost like a, you know, it's having like a physiological struggle, like a physiological response to me holding this, this end. And so I told him, and it was a very like supportive and like, like we, you know, we spoke about it. And I got what I needed from that conversation. And he also, not that I ever wanted it or asked for it or thought that he needed to give it, but he also apologized for not, not, not believing me at face value when I told him as well. And he's the one that actually brought that up.

34:56He's the one I told him was like, Hey, you know, I, I'm really struggling with what happened to me when I was younger and it's, you know, shapes a lot of, you know, the police is about myself and whether I feel like I can trust people. And he's the one that said without me even raising it, like I'm so sorry. Or like doubting that this even happened in the moment. And so yeah, he's, he was very supportive after I did believe you, because you never went back, right? Yes. That's right. That's right. You're very, very quick to forgive. We were young kids. Okay, please don't tell me, don't tell me things that are blatantly obvious. Please, that's just, that's not waste time. That's not waste up precious time together with you taking the time to inform me that an 11 year old and a 13 year old aren't adults. Okay. I'm fully aware. I'm fully aware, but you felt betrayed in the moment because your brother

35:57called you a liar about a terrible thing that happened to you. I'm not talking about like you're adults understanding. I'm talking about your experience at the age of 11, where you say, I'm in grave danger. This kid's a predator and your brother says it didn't happen. You're lying or you mistook something or whatever, right? And they will never speak about again. I'm, I'm never going back. I'm talking about how you felt at the time. It was very easy. You just watch things as if it did all to understanding. I'm talking about how you felt at the time. Well, I, I felt like I couldn't trust anyone. Yeah, I, what did you want your brother to do in that moment? Get me out of there. And what else? Or I don't know. I mean, that's what I wanted him to kick in this awesome dog, grabbing by the neck and say, you touched my brother, you son of a bitch, and you punch him. Yeah. I'm not saying that that would be necessarily wise, but I'm sure that that was part of your thinking.

36:57Yeah, that would have been, that would have been great. Yeah, I think the response that I did get to be fair, it was kind of the response that I asked for slash wanted. Like I didn't want a big thing. I didn't want to, I didn't want this. Sorry, you wanted to be disbelieved. What? No, I just didn't want to big. I just wanted to try and move on from your, from the situation. Oh, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, your brother's not responsible for anything, but you're somehow responsible for your choices at the age of 10. This is what you wanted. This is what you chose. You can't have both ways. You can't say, wow, my brother was only 13. So he's not really responsible. And then he said, but this is what I wanted, what I chose, what I preferred when you're 10. You can't have it. You can't say that my brother has no responsibility at 13, but I'm responsible for my choices with no outside influence at the age of 10.

37:58So you think I'm being too, you said before that was very quick to forget. You're very quick to forget. Yeah. Are you Christian? I mean, I was raised, I was in a somewhat vaguely Christian household. I mean, you're forgiving this guy who tried to shove his thing down your throat. It's confused. It's, it's not confused. Yeah. If he was confused, he wouldn't try and isolate you. He wouldn't say, shave you off from your brother. Yeah. He wasn't confused. I think he knew it was wrong. I think the reason I sort of flipped my interpretation of it was because for a while, I think I was just, I think I was turning him into some kind of demon and also like escape goat for my own shortcoming. No, he's a symptom. No, he's a symptom. Yeah. The predator was a symptom.

39:01Now, to give you a way of looking at it, if you're on a camping trip and your children are sleeping far away from you and they get bitten, and now let's use an Australian, a dingout. They go, took my baby. Right. So if you're bitten, your kids are bitten because they're sleeping a hundred yards away from you, as opposed to your sleeping on the outside and they're sleeping on the inside and so on. Who's fault is it? Yeah. And that situation would be the parents. Right. Parents fault. So think of this little piece of crap, this 16, 17, 17 year old boy. I mean, he would be tried. Sorry, he was 17, right? He was 17. 17. Yeah. So he would be tried as an adult. So this absolute piece of filth, think of the risk he was taking. Because if you had gone right home, told your parents, your parents had called the police, the police had taken a statement, the police went over, questioned, his life would be destroyed.

40:06I think if I had done that at the time, very, very possible. I did go to the police a few years ago and they said because you were 17, at most, he would get placed into some kind of like education. Okay. Let's say that's what happens. Okay. So let's say that's what happens, but what does everyone know about him now? Yeah. Yeah. So even if you didn't go to jail and I don't know, I don't know the laws where you are. So, but I'm just talking about reputation. Sure. Yeah. So think of the risk he was taking and he may not have known all of that as a 17 year old. So think of the risk that he was taking. How did he know it was safe to take that risk? How did he know he could roll these awful dice? How did he know he was going to get away with it? Because he did.

41:07Yeah. I mean, he, he, in hindsight, he was grooming me to be, you know, you see grooming is not a test of you. Gruming is a test of your parents are giving me. Okay. So how do you, you say he was grooming you? What do you mean better? Well, I mean, we were constantly at each other's houses developing what I thought was some kind of friendship. I guess there were lines that maybe, I don't remember them. But you know, maybe he was testing certain lines and boundaries. And obviously it got to the point where he felt comfortable enough knowing that you would be able to separate us and I would view it as normal and not, not a problem. Yeah. Okay. So it wasn't that he was like, show you pornography or talking explicitly or anything like that.

42:07It was just that one time when he separated you from your brother because of quote, land issues, whatever that means. And then he tried this stuff in private, right? And how long did you know that for that, for that, at that point? I would guess probably about a year. Oh, yeah. Okay. So the grooming process is a process of testing the parents and the parents level of protection. That is what grooming is. It's probing to see how strong your relationship with your parents are. Because if, oh, I tell my father everything and, you know, I tell them all about you and we have great conversations and, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then he's not going to try anything. In fact, he's probably going to ditch you and go for some other unprotected kid. So he knew that your brother was going to betray you. He knew that neither of you would say anything. The question is, how did he know that?

43:10I don't know. We never guess you do. Yes, you do. Yes, you do. Don't try this. I don't know stuff with me. I know it's amazing to be the people still try this stuff. You don't even really think about it. I don't know, right? Of course you know. Okay. So you and, let's just call them Bob. You and Bob and your brother are playing video games. Does Bob, sorry, does Bob see your brother treating you with respect? Or does he see your brother? Treating you with disrespect? No, he would have seen us. We had a good relationship. Me and my brother. Well, somehow Bob knew that he could do this in the house with your brother in the house and Bob knew that even if you told your brother, nothing would happen. Because you think of the risk that he's taking. The risk that he's taking is the destruction of his entire reputation for all time. I mean, socially, right? Forget legally, just socially. Right. Or if you go, if you go and talk to your friends and it gets around the school or the neighborhood

44:13or something like that. So he knew you guys would keep it quiet. How did he know? He knew your brother would betray you. He knew neither of you would go to your parents. And that's why he did what he did, which is not to say he's not responsible. Of course he is. I mean, he's not a dingo like unconscious being. But how did he know? Well, we really liked, we really liked this kid. And we thought even just implicitly because he's older is he knows more than us. He's he's more respected by the adults than us. Yeah, we looked up to this person. And so I'm guessing that is the dynamic that allowed him that access to me. I know. That's not it. Sorry to be annoying. That's not because if you respected him. Yeah, I mean, the basic question then, which every parent has to ask about kids who are six

45:14years older, being interested in their little kids is why. So let's say you look up to him. He's the coolest guy ever. Why is he? If he's the coolest guy ever and a great guy, why isn't he hanging around with people his own age? I mean, I'm sure he was, but this is a lot of time. Six, seven hours a week. Yeah, what's in it for him? I mean, unless if he's if he's mentally challenged or retarded or something like that, then maybe he's operating at the level of an 11 year old and a 13 year old, but that doesn't seem to be the case, right? No, he was a pretty normal, he was an overweight kid, but he was otherwise pretty normal, pretty normal 17 year old. All right. So why will your parents happy to have you go over to this fat, older kids house for hours and hours and hours a week? Well, the parent will his parents, I think were basically always there.

46:16Our parents knew each other. They were from a Christian household. They were like a church going family. And so we did, well, my parents, I don't think they saw any red flags. Or indicators that something was wrong, particularly because all of the kids in the neighborhood would sort of congregate at each other's thousands in this way. Yeah, I think that I think that's a lot of the roles 11 year old. Yeah. So why did your parents, why were they happy to have you go over for a full work day, a week to this kids house that he come to your house? Yes. Yes. And was it like 50, 50? More or less. Yeah. Okay. All right. So I mean, you're not a parent, right? So this is going to be maybe a little bit beyond. So I said, you know, I think you know, but how was your relationship?

47:19You said your father was working a lot, right? That's right. So how often did you see him in any given week? I saw him. So at this time of my life, when I was 11, 12, I would have seen him in the evenings, like around dinner time, for maybe an hour. And then maybe on the weekends, a couple hours, or if we went to your sporting events, you know, put like my own sporting events, or if they took me to like a school extension program, the starting day. Okay. So that's that's shuffling and watching and eating. I mean, yes, one on one time in conversation with your father, one on one. Basically, basically zero. Okay. So zero. Okay. So you weren't being parented, like driving you places and giving you food is not parenting. Parenting is the transmission of wisdom and knowledge and virtue to your children.

48:20And if you weren't having one-on-one conversations and getting advice from your father, you weren't being parented. What about your mother? No, I didn't get any of that. My mother, I mean, in the same way, you know, she would take me places. She would, you know, she was always present. You know, she was a stay-at-home mom. But I didn't necessarily get any wisdom from her. I think she also grew up in a much more abusive household than, you know, what I've described. So she wasn't necessarily always completely stable as like a, please stop the acting stuff. She wasn't necessarily always completely stable. Who is? There's no human being in the world who's always completely stable. So just, just tell me to just stop with the beauty of the bush stuff. Well, when I was 17, this was a few, obviously, six years after that experience with

49:24a neighbor, I came home one day and my mom was in the middle of a nervous breakdown. I think she had depression-issued psychosis. And that, that's an open, this period of my life for three or four months where we were, like, chasing like literally searching the streets for her. You know, she would, she would, yeah, she would like run away from home. And like while she was in psychosis, it was quite a dangerous thing for someone like that to be, it was a very vulnerable state to be in. And we had no idea where she would be to, you know, hours or days. We would have to get the police to help us find her. And she was eventually committed to a psychiatric institution which she hated.

50:28And, yeah, after a few months of us, you know, after a few months, she was let out. And now she is honestly doing extremely well, not just because of, you know, I'm not comparing her to that baseline of literally insane, crazy person running down the streets, but she is actually sort of, I guess, grown up as, and matured and, you know, has much more stability and control over herself. And she's now like a very, she's a great parent. But all those years, even from when I was like 11, you know, this thing that caused her to eventually go psychotic and have this, this nervous breakdown. These things were still, you know, she was experiencing that at that time as well. Right. So she was struggling. Sorry, she was struggling from what he was, well, she was struggling as a parent from when I was, you know, 10, 11, 12 years old. Right.

51:29And so I think that's probably also why I didn't say anything. And you know, in the house, oh, I listen, first of all, I'm sorry. I guess with something similar and I'm really, really sorry. I just want to be very clear about that. And listen, I'm not calling you some big, sneaky liar. It's kind of a joke, but I asked why didn't you tell your parents? You said I don't know, but you, you're exactly now. Yeah. You knew because your mother was struggling with her mental health and you didn't want to add to her burdens. Yeah. And so I, I, I'm just, so when I say, when people say, I don't know, I, and I say, you do, it's true. Right. And again, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not trying to attack you. I'm just, I'm just pointing out that you know, when you told me that you didn't know why you didn't tell your parents or whatever, I can't remember exactly that or something around this area. Were you aware that you did know, but you didn't want to say, or did you genuinely believe that you didn't know? No, I, I think I just, I, I didn't want to put myself back into my 11 year old

52:30position. And like, I don't know for certain. And so I knew that, you know, the house, it was, like I said, at the beginning of the call, like it was just easier not to, not to make a big fuss of things. It was easier to be alone. It was easier to just sort of manage myself. But I didn't want to, so even if you understand how insulting this is to your younger self to say, I didn't want to make a big fuss. Like you didn't want to say, I was this close to being sexually assaulted by this horrible creep, right? So when you say, I didn't want to make a big fuss. That is diminishing language. Yeah. I mean, if this happened to your son and he told you, which is a, oh, stop making such a big fuss about it. No, no, no, you wouldn't stop saying it to yourself. Yeah. Did you notice at the mystery of why you didn't tell your parents or why this played out the way it did? Did you notice that you just gave me the answer to that mystery? And did you say, you know, on hindsight, because I remember you asking me why I didn't

53:33tell my parents and I gave you kind of the run around. But now I'm sort of realizing, and sorry, I was misleading before, but I was, I'm kind of realizing why I didn't tell my parents did, did I connect to you at all? Are you asking if I understand? Yeah. Like now when you were saying it, did you notice that you said you didn't really know why you didn't tell your parents or anything like that? And of course, this is why your brother didn't tell your parents. Yeah. Because your brother was even more aware of your mother's mental fragility than you were. Yes. That's right. So and I'm not trying to be, I'm not honest, I'm not trying to pick it. You were anything. I'm just genuine, de curious. No, I don't, that when there was this big mystery as to why you didn't tell your parents, which we wrestled with for almost half an hour. And then you tell me, well, my mother was going to get sane. Of course, in my teens, did you connect that with why you didn't tell? It's not a test. I'm genuine, de curious. I, I, I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. You're asking me if I was like in, like in knowingly, okay, do you remember like, we spent like 20 minutes, half an hour trying to figure out why you didn't tell your parents, right?

54:35Yeah. And there was a lot of run around. And then you tell me, well, of course, my mother was losing her mind even back then. And then she ended up going completely insane and being locked in a mental institution. Yeah. Would that be relevant as to why you didn't tell your parents? No. I think so, but I think set on the reason I didn't bring up earlier is because when I think, to me, these are two discreet events. And I've never thought about what my mom was going through and what she was like when I was 10 or 11. You know, for me, when, like, when I was, when I began to relay the story earlier, I was coming home from school and my mom had gone psychotic. That was, that was the experience for me. It was not like the slow build up of, you know, mom is acting a bit funny. I'm so sorry, man. I thought you said that there were indications going back some time that she had trouble with her mental health depression or things like that. They're in hindsight.

55:37Yes. No, there's no hindsight. You're a kid. You're living it. Your kids are incredibly sensitive to the mood to their parents. They have to be. So when did you, when did you first begin to think, or when did you, my first begin to show a science of depression? Now, from now, looking back, I know just, I just said no hindsight, but now looking back, when do you think you, my first began to show science of depression? I think probably around, around what I was, you know, seven to ten years old, thought about by difficulties between her and her sister. So they had a complicated relationship. I don't really know the details behind it. I know that there would be these explosive arguments between the two of them. And my mom will get very affected by that. I don't think she was the cause or the person to blame. I don't really know, but she would be extremely mother was the cause. I don't think she was, okay, she could affect your mother or the sister.

56:39So I just need to be clear. Oh, sorry, sorry about that. Yeah. I don't think my mother was the cause. I think her sister also had, again, they grew up in a very damaged, broken household. I think this sister was the cause of it. And so your mother really impacted the system with older. It's a, it's her younger sister. It's her younger sister and your mother is innocent and her younger sister is to blame. Uh, this, this younger sister, my auntie, she has, or she had, like, explosive end of management, or emotional. You know, she was a. Okay, hang on. So so your mother's not to blame your brother is not to blame. You were to blame at the age of 10. And now your aunt is to blame. I'm really, I don't understand this big sliding scale of responsibility and non-responsibility. So your mother is not responsible for going crazy because she came from a bad household,

57:42but your aunt is 100% responsible for her bad temper. No, I just meant that my mom for the most part was a pretty reasonable person. And she was caring and she, she, she, she was a good mom for the most part. But then she would have these occasionally extremely explosive arguments with her sister. And I saw that and I saw, you saw that from your mom's perspective. You don't know the history. Have you ever talked to your aunt about it? No, no. Well, why not? I mean, maybe they're out of the family. I don't know. Maybe she's too raging. No, no, she's, no, she's, she's around. And she is like, you understand that I've been doing this for over 20 years. And you listen to these calls because relationships are complex, right? I mean, if they were simple, nobody calls me. And so I said, Steph, I can't figure out what square root of nine is because I said three and we're done. Right. So relationships are complex, right?

58:46And then saying my mother was innocent, her younger sister has a wicked temper, which of course, if your mother is innocent, then your aunt is guilty, right? And saying what the entire summary of their complex relationship is that my aunt was the bad guy. And my mother is the good guy. You can't expect me to believe that. No, I'm not trying to say, yeah, I don't think it's so black and white. No, no, that's how you would try to. Sure. I think I said earlier, look, I don't know, I don't know all the details. But I know that as a extended family, we have had to sort of help this auntie. Um, it's been a family, extended family. Um, I have kind of had to intervene in. Okay. No, I can listen. I understand that she had an explosive temper. So I don't think I'm going to get anywhere with this, this part of the conversation.

59:47So let me go back to your mother was a good mother. Now, listen, obviously I have sympathy with your mother. If she probably had a terrible childhood and she struggles with emotional challenges. And so this is not to throw your mother under the bus. But we're just looking at it from an objective standpoint, right? So if your mother was a good mother and you're certainly welcome to advance that thesis, and I'm going to embrace it with an open heart in what ways was she a good mother? Um, well, she was for the most thought, you know, 90%, 95% of the time, extremely caring. She was nurturing. She put us before you. So earlier, sorry, didn't drop you said earlier that your mother did not give you any particular advice and you had very little one-on-one conversation with her. That's correct. So how can she be kind, nurturing and loving while not talking to her child about anything important? Well, I think, I think emotionally, um, sorry, I think in terms of like, like she was

1:00:51always physically there for us. And if we had a hard day, we could always, you know, she would always welcome us home with open arms. And she, you know, that I think she didn't have the, she's a span of pet care for you. A dog is happy when you come home. I'm not calling your mother a dog, but parenting is not giving your kids hugs and saying, oh, it'll be fine. Yeah. That's like saying that being a surgeon is just giving people hugs and saying, oh, you're going to be fine. Parenting is the transmission of wisdom and the protection of children. Yeah. She did not transmit any wisdom. She did not keep you safe intellectually. She was there and she hugged and cuddled and that's nice. But that's not parenting. Anyone can hug and cuddle. You can pay people to hug and cuddle. You kids can hug and cuddle parenting is a little bit more sophisticated. And as Christians, they were Christians, right? Um, you said that there was other Christian families and that the, the, the, the 60, 17 year old fat boy was a, in a Christian family and they knew each other from that. That's right. And right. So they were Christian, right?

1:01:51No. We only knew each other as neighbors. My family, you know, we Greek. So we Greek Orthodox, but we'd be really just called like, we're really only Greek Orthodox as part of, I've known like Christmas Easter's, baptisms, weddings, that kind of thing. Sorry. I thought that in part this other family was trusted because of religious reasons. Yeah. We, that's what we knew them as like devout Catholics and they would go to church together. They seemed to have a happy family. And so we said, okay, well, this is a, what we thought was like a happy, healthy, Catholic family. Okay. So your parents are not religious in their hearts. They just go to eat through and Christmas. That's, it's, yeah, it's a cultural, that's right. Okay. So they don't believe in God. Uh, I, I'm sure if you asked them, they would say something like, you know, God means something different to everyone. And so they wouldn't answer the question.

1:02:53I, yeah, like you don't answer questions to be frank. Correct. Yeah. Okay. Got it. Sure. Yeah. Another habit comes from somewhere, right? Okay. So if you were to ask your parents, if we, if we were suddenly able to magically dial them in, I'd love to do this one day, but not today. So if we were to ask your parents, excuse me, do you think it's important to teach your children right from wrong and to give them a good moral foundation for navigating the world? What would they say? They would say yes. Of course they would say yes. Yeah. But I think that they, they didn't take on that responsibility explicitly themselves. I think the way that they chose to do that was to send us to very good schools and to put us around, you know, good teachers, good, good peers. I think that's for, to do their parenting. Even though your mother was a stay at home mother, she was paid to parent.

1:03:55She was given hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years to parent, which means to instill good morals and ethics to answer children's questions to help them navigate complex social situations to learn how to avoid danger, to learn how to pursue the good, all these things. That's what, that's her job. That's what she was paid for. And she chose not to do it. Instead she chose to hand over her parental responsibilities to strangers. I think in, in a literal sense, you might be sorry, in a right sense, in a literal sense like that is, I don't think it's the most charitable sort of and the far broles in. I'm just talking about facts. You told me, Brill, I'm just, I'm not making things up. I promise you and, and I'm going. Okay, you got to stop talking when I'm talking. It's really annoying. Okay, because it means you're not listening and you called me up for my feedback, right? You want me to help you.

1:04:55So that means when I'm talking, please stop interrupting me all the time. And now I know I interrupt you from time to time as well. And I'm aware of that. But that's when we're going in a non productive direction. So I don't need to be sharp or anything like that. But you just have this habit that when I start talking, you just immediately start talking and that means that you're not listening. And it's fine, but then we can't have the call, right? Because there's no point talking if you're talking at the same time. So I'm not trying to make anything up. I'm not trying to throw your mom under the bus. But you have things wrong about your life because if you had things right about your life, you wouldn't be 28, a porn addict with no job prospects. I mean, I know you've got the contract and so on, but you have concerns about how you'll fulfill it. So people call me up because they have things incorrect about their lives. So when you say to me, neither of my parents taught me any wisdom, really whatsoever. They just ferried me around and fed me and hugged me and all of that. But they didn't teach me anything. And then I point out that and you say, well, my parents gave me the teachers, right? And I said, okay, well, your mother was paid to be a stay at home mom, which means

1:05:58to parent and I did check, right, which your mom say that, or which your parents say that parenting is about instilling values and helping your children navigate blah, blah, blah. And you said, yes. And so they know that they know that that's their job and they don't do it. And your mother takes hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars to be a stay at home mom and then outsources the most essential aspect of parenting to strangers. And you say, well, that's true in a literal sense, but it's not charitable. I don't know what literal or charitable. Any of that means in this context, I'm just dealing with facts. I'm dealing with what you told me. Now, you may say, you know what, I've thought of 50 times just now where my mom did give me great advice and feedback and morals and listened and, you know, all of that. And in which case I can revise what I'm saying because I'm an empiricist. So all I have to go in on is what you've told me, right? And again, I'm really not trying to be mean. I'm trying to be efficient, right? So all I can go on is what you've told me and you told me your parents did not instill any wisdom in you. While they knew that this is what parents are supposed to do. And so if it's charitable or not, I don't know any of that means I'm just telling you the facts

1:07:02because you were living a life without wisdom for the most part. And again, this is not a big criticism. This is my understanding of what you're calling in for help with, right? So of course, if somebody says to me, you know, I'm staff, I'm in Japan and I don't speak Japanese. Then the first questions I would ask is, well, were you raised speaking Japanese? No, well, that's why you don't speak Japanese. So if you're living a life without wisdom, my first question is, were you raised with wisdom? And if you say, no, we're saying, well, that's just why you're living a life without wisdom. Say, well, that's not very charitable to my parents. And it's like, I don't know what any of that means. It's just course in fact, as far as I can see it. Yeah, so I'm done now. So I'll shut up. Go ahead. Yeah, I think all that is fair and accurate. I think the place that I got my quote, unquote, wisdom and so far as I have some of it, you know, I was a very, very academic kid. I was a very avid reader. I read a lot of philosophy as a kid.

1:08:05Yes, but it's not sure. Sorry to interrupt. Sorry to interrupt. I apologize. I know just told you not to interrupt. But would you say that you're living a life that is lacking in wisdom? I'm living a life that is lacking in execution of the wisdom. Okay, fine. So I mean, that's the hair splitting, right? Right. If I have weights, but I never lift them and people say, do you lift weights? And you say, well, I have them, but I don't lift them. Then that's kind of a dodge, right? Yes. Okay. So maybe you have some wisdom and you're unable to implement it. For whatever reason and listen, brother, we're all there. Like we're all of the same. But I have wisdom that I also failed to execute on and so on. So like, please understand, I'm not lecturing from any place of superiority because we all struggle with this implementation of wisdom. So if you live a life without implementing, and I'm not saying you have no wisdom, when I say a life without wisdom, you know, I'm sort of saying like a life without eating well. Well, I had a salad last week. It's like, we're looking at in the main, right?

1:09:06So if you're living a life without wisdom, then the first first place to look is where you taught wisdom as a child. Okay. So your parents outsourced parenting, which is the transmission of wisdom, wisdom being rational applications of universal principles. Like if you want to achieve something, you have to defer gratification and you're able to stay with it and things like that. So if your parents outsourced parenting, to teachers, tell me about the wisdom you got from your teachers. Well, I don't think I got, I think I got an education from my teachers for the lowest thought. I don't think I got wisdom from them with rare exceptions. Okay. So the project didn't work. Right? The project didn't work. If I say, listen, I don't know karate. I'm going to send you to a karate instructor and the karate instructor doesn't teach you any karate. Have I fulfilled my obligations as a parent? No. No. So if I say, well, listen, I'm not going to teach you wisdom, but I'm going to send you out to teachers who are going to teach you wisdom,

1:10:08then shouldn't you keep track on whether the teachers are in fact teaching your child wisdom? And if they're not, then you need to find another solution to transmit wisdom to your child, right? I think the metric that was used for whether everything was working correctly, whether I was, you know, obtaining wisdom in whatever form. I think the metric that was used was migrates. And because migrates were so good consistently, they said, okay, well, things are working. Like this is, we've made a good decision with, you know, this is the right place for us. Okay. And when did your father begin to be aware that your mother was suffering from depression? You said, I think six or seven or eight years old, if I remember rightly, that you noticed that your mother was kind of down or things like that. So when did your father, do you think, or maybe he's talked about it? I don't know, I doubt it. But when did your father begin to have the perspective that your mother

1:11:11might be having some challenges mentally? I think that was known for a long time, even before I was seven or 10 years old. She, they didn't travel much because when she would travel somewhere, she would basically, I mean, this is all secondhand information, but I'm told that she would get extremely anxious and like freak out basically when she's in a familiar country or an unfamiliar environment. So I think it was known all along that she had some kind of thing going on mentally with her mental health. But my parents, my dad is from a family, like a village family, increase. He didn't know much about mental health and had to look after someone in that kind of state. So I think that answers your question. I'm sorry. Did your father continue to work as a manual laborer for his whole life?

1:12:15No, he works in IT. Oh, fantastic. So he's perfectly intelligent and capable of learning new skills, right? I mean, it wasn't like he grew up with IT in a Greek village, right? Right. So of course, he's perfectly capable of picking up a book and saying, oh, your spouse seems kind of down. Here's what you should do. Unless he's still using the first computer language he ever learned, he's perfectly capable of learning new things, right? He actually, I'm just as a society actually is still using the first computer language, he ever learned. That's funny. That's a cardboard guy, right? Okay, but he still did learn the computer language, which he didn't grow up with, right? Yes. Okay. So he's perfectly capable of learning new things. Now, if he's a computer programmer, why was he gone all the time? Was he traveling? Like, why? Why was he gone all the time? He was. He was. The programmer's normally have kind of stable habits, right? Well, when I was four, I just said, it's not relevant. When I was a young child, yes, he had long hours. It's like going to go on from like seven a.m. to seven p.m. basically.

1:13:18Well, sorry, was there like a two hour commuter? Yeah, we don't live in the city. He worked in the city. Okay. So he's the long commute, okay? Yes. Okay. And so if you have concerns about your wife's mental health, is it and how long did he work these kinds of hours? I mean, did it change later that he was working fewer hours away, at least away from home less? Yeah, maybe over the last five or six years, I mean, he retired a few years ago. Okay, bro, we're going from like age of five to 28 or 23, right? So I'm talking about the 18 years. If he was gone 12 hours a day, was that the case for most of you to challenge it? Yes. Okay. Got it. So if your wife is going through mental health challenges, is it wise to be gone for 12 hours a day? No, I don't think anyone knew how accused the mental health challenges were. And when when a real when the crisis actually struck,

1:14:19then he, you know, he wasn't going to work in that. So you understand that you are an excuse making machine, right? So you make excuses for people. You don't hold them accountable. You say, well, nobody, you and he was a great village. He didn't know how to deal with this kind of stuff, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? So listen, you can make all the excuses you want in the world, but you'll never end up with any willpower or discipline. Sure. Because when you make excuses for your parents, you make you generate or you manufacture in your mind problem, excuse, problem, excuse criticism, excuse criticism, excuse criticism, excuse. And your parents continue living their lives who was most harmed by your excuse making machine. It's myself, right? So you're saying to me, I lack discipline, I lack follow through, and what that means is you make excuses. And if you listen back, I hope you will, listen back to this call. Yes. You'll see that in general, you make excuses. My brother was just a kid. This kid

1:15:25who who tried to molest me was confused and and didn't know what he was doing. And my father didn't know much about my mother's mental health. And he was from a small village. Excuse, excuse, excuse, excuse, right? So how can you hold yourself accountable if you don't hold anyone else accountable? Because you're saying it is human nature to fail. It is human nature to not be held accountable. Well, you're a human being, right? And so you can't hold yourself accountable. And I think if you would have slowed down your mental processes, you say you go to the gym and you work hard for a week and then it just kind of fails or fades, there's something that you say to yourself in that transition from discipline to non-discipline. And what is it that you say to yourself after the week you go into the gym? What excuse do you make? There's got to be something. We can't do anything without justifying it in our minds, right? Yeah, I think I just tell myself that it's fine. Like I've been good and it's fine to miss a day

1:16:30or two days. And I, yeah, it's just like you said, it's an excuse. It's an excuse. And you can't say it's fine to miss a day or two days when you're 28 and have the follow-through of a wet noodle, right? Yeah, it's fine. It's fine. Even though you know it's not fine, you make an excuse. So what is the excuse that you make about, say, watching YouTube instead of doing work? What do you say? You say I need to catch up on world events. I deserve a break. There's something that you say that makes it possible for you to do it. Yeah, I think I just tell myself I think I'm just really, I think I'm just very neurotic. And when, you know, when work makes me, that's an excuse. I'm just saying that's an excuse. That's an excuse. No, just saying, well, I'm neurotic is saying, well, come on man,

1:17:31it's like the reason I don't play basketball is I'm five for two. That's an excuse. Saying you're neurotic, like I just said, and I thought we had agreed that I could be wrong, that whatever we do, we justify to ourselves, right? Like, so I'll give you an example for my own life, right? So every now and then, because I work out fairly hard, my body needs calories, right? I mean, and so every now and then I'll wake up at night and I'll be hungry, and I can't get back to sleep. And then I have to go down and I have to eat and it messes up my sleep and so on. So knowing that, what I say to myself sometimes is, well, I should have a little bowl of cereal before I go to bed so I don't wake up hungry. Now, do I actually, that have I tracked it all? I don't know, but you know, maybe I just want to bowl a cereal and I'm like, well, but I don't want to wake up hungry. In a sense, there's an excuse, right? There's an excuse. Now, if you go from disciplined to undisciplined, there has to be something that changes in your mind. Now, if you say, well, it's because I'm neurotic, let's say that's true,

1:18:36I don't know if it's true, but let's say that it's true. Neurosus is a permanent state of mind. If you're just neurotic, you're neurotic. You overthink everything and you worry and you have to get paralyzed with options and whatever it is, right? So that's a permanent state of mind. So why would it show up one week and not the next? Like if you say, well, how do you speak Japanese? Well, I just know Japanese. I mean, one week I know Japanese, the next week I don't know Japanese at all. That wouldn't be something that would come and go, right? So how can discipline come and go if you have a permanent state of mind called, I'm neurotic, right? So there has to be something that you tell yourself to change from disciplined to undisciplined, from hardworking to lazy. There's an excuse. And because you have an excuse making machine, it may even be unconscious. So you work hard for a while and you see the results and then what? What do you say to yourself? And I'm not trying to interrogate you like some, you know, some, I agent, I'm just genuinely curious. What do you say to yourself? You know, people who have guided it, right? They say, oh, man, I've been so good all week. I deserve a treat. I, you know, I need to reward myself. And so they have a perspective.

1:19:40It's just, you know, even Dwayne Johnson has his cheek days or whatever it is, right? So they say something to themselves that allows them to have pizza and cheesecake or whatever they're eating, right? So what do you say to yourself when you go from hardworking to not hardworking? Well, it's, it's a mixture of, of what you just outlined saying, you know, I've worked, you know, been working so hard. And so now it's fine if I, you know, take a little break or take an afternoon off or a day off. It's a mixture of that. And it's also just a, a feeling that what I'm doing is a waste of time and it's not going to go anywhere and it's not going to be successful. And so it doesn't really matter whether I stick to it or not. Like there's no I don't necessarily have a belief that my life is going to move in the direction that I hope, the direction that I'm working towards. I don't think I believe that, like deep down that if I work hard and if I, if I stick to it, there's going to turn out the way that I want.

1:20:45Well, and your brother though, you said has worked hard and is quite successful, right? That's right. Okay. So it's not a universal phenomenon. Like human beings as a whole can't control their fate, right? It's something that is particular to you, right? That's right. Okay. So why is it particular to you? Why is it that only you can't control your fate? You're singled out like a laser from the heavens, right? Why is it that you're singled out as having no control over your fate? Oh, I know, I know that all my actions have consequences and I know that my fate is changeable and pliable and you know, the work that I do now will just I know that logically, but you're talking about your subjective belief that it's not going to work out. So saying, well, I know this logically, but I can't implement it emotionally. It doesn't help me because if you did know it logically and you could open it, you could implement it emotionally. You wouldn't be calling me. So I'm fully aware that the gap between what you claim to know and what you actually do. I'm fully aware of that. I know that the entire basis of the goal. Okay. So why? What do you say to yourself?

1:21:47And only yourself? I say to myself that life, life is on a fairytale and just because you're working hard doesn't mean you're necessarily going to achieve it. And there's a lot of people around you who are living through their own nightmares. I've got some people that I know who say, I'm literally living through what I hoped I would never live to right now in terms of like family or money or career or whatever it is. I just know a lot of unfulfilled, unsatisfied people. And that's kind of the color of my experience is like, well, I don't know many people who are thrilled with their lives and are doing really well and are happy with themselves. As I kind of just take off that attitude as well. Okay. So if you're surrounded by people who aren't happy,

1:22:47who either don't achieve and aren't happy or do achieve and aren't happy, then what problem do you want me to solve? Because if achievement versus not achievement doesn't change happiness, then what problem do you want me to solve? Like if somebody said to me, well, nobody I know who steers at a blank wall ends up speaking fluent Japanese. I would see like, moldy. So if they said, well, I want you to solve that problem, I would say, well, I can't solve that problem because you can't steer at a blank wall and learn Japanese. So if achievement versus non-achievement doesn't affect happiness, then what are you calling me to solve? No, I think it does affect happiness. And in the few times that I've had success, I've felt you're satisfied and fulfilled, et cetera. But yeah, I just think in my day today and the way that I think about, okay, no, no, what problem do you want me to solve? Do you want me to give

1:23:49you better discipline? What is it that you want me to solve? Like how out of the end of this conversation, what is it that you want to walk away with? If I walked away with something that helped me be more disciplined, then I'll be thrilled. Okay. What discipline were you exposed to too as a child? I can tell you why you were sent over or occupied with this fat, creep, 17-year-old, 16-17-year-old. I can tell you why you were sent to that person's house or why that person came to your house. Yeah, I wasn't exposed to much discipline as a child. Sorry, did you hear my question? Oh, sorry, did you hear my statement? About the fat, do you know why? Yes, he was in your life. I'm not sure. No, I'm not sure. He was in your life because he occupied you and your mother didn't want to be parents. Because if you wanted to

1:24:55parent, then you very much enjoy having conversations with your children. Important conversations. I mean, and fun conversations or whatever, right? So if you enjoy parenting, then you enjoy spending time with your children, not just taking the places, not just doing feeding or whatever, but genuinely one-on-one with your children. Does that make sense? Yes. Okay. So if my daughter had some friend who she was spending six, seven hours a week with, and I assume that there were lots of other things that you were doing as well, at some point I'd say, gee, I wonder why she's choosing this other person over me. Now, of course, there's times when that's going to happen, obviously she should have peer relationships and so on, right? But I would miss her. And I would say, hey, we really haven't spent any time together lately. I really miss our conversations. Can we go for a walk or maybe go and get some food or whatever, and get caught up

1:25:59or something like that, right? Does that make sense? Yes, yes it does. I mean, there have been times where I've been doing crazy amounts of work and my daughter will say, I really miss you. We're not really spending much time together like we're used to and I will adjust things and so on, right? So if you miss your children, then you don't want them going over and being absorbed in video games and so on, right? And if your parents didn't have many of any one-on-one conversations with you about important things, it means that they didn't really enjoy parenting. And if you don't really enjoy parenting, then your kid going over to someone's house or having that kid come over and they just vanish to the basement and you don't have to interact with them means that the kids do and you are favored. You're taking your kids and making them busy so you don't have to interact with them. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, did your parents learn your video games and play them with you? When we were very, very young, no, but I mean, my dad would. No, no, did your parents and you have particular activities or hobbies or things that you did together

1:27:01that they were involved in? Aside from the shuddling, which we are actually just taking us. I mean, activities. Not show furry, not ubering. No, not acting. No. Okay, so your parents didn't enjoy your company. Yeah, sorry to be so blind. Yeah, sure. But your parents didn't enjoy your company. I've wanted to be a father for a long time. Finally, became a father. Do you think I would have taken a job that had me away all day? I'd be like, no, I can't. Like either we move to the city and I don't commute or I get a job that's closer, but I'm not spending four hours a day commuting because I don't get to spend time with my family, right? Yeah, I, yeah, I agree with you. Okay, so how is it possible that your mother and your father were good parents when also they didn't want to spend time with you and your brother? I think they were good in the way that they,

1:28:04I think they recognized that they had certain obligations maybe as parents about our, our education, the activities that we did, etc. And they ticked those boxes, yes. I now see much more clearly the parenting aspects that they didn't really, yeah, that it really parent as such. They sure, that means that they, like, can I be a good husband and not want to spend time with my wife? No, right. How did your parents get along with each other when you were young? I wouldn't say they had like a romantic storybook. Okay, come on, man, Jesus Christ, it's crazy here. Sorry, sorry, sorry, these false dichotomies. Well, they weren't permanently in happily and gloriously and blah, blah, blah, who gives a shit? Just tell me how they got along. Did they love each other? They don't do each other's company. Did they seek out conversation

1:29:07with each other? Were they happy to be in each other's presence? Just the basics. I would say no, no, no, I don't think they, I don't think they went out of their way to, you know, going date nights or to spend time with each other. Okay, did you see them laughing with each other? Did you see them kissed? Did they, but they affectionate with each other? Sometimes. Well, that's true of anything sometimes, right? Did you get a hold of, you were good golfer, sometimes, well, everyone's a good golfer, sometimes they get a hold in one every, like every 10 years. So it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't, um, their relationship wasn't characterized by, you know, being overly affectionate. Okay, overly, overly as a weasel word, overly affectionate as a weasel word. So you understand you just, you an avoidance and excuse making machine. Sure. I answered anything directly. Yeah. Yeah. You said my mother was depressed from the age of six or seven onwards. Can you have a good relationship with a depressed person? I don't think so. Of course not.

1:30:13So see here's the thing. I try and, I'm like a lawyer this way. I'm not a lawyer obviously. I'm in law. Don't answer, don't ask a question. You already don't know the answer to, right? When you cross-examining someone, right? I know, again, I know that sounds confrontational. I'm not cross-examining you. But when you said that your mother was depressed and I said, well, when you were younger, did your parents have a good relationship? I already know the answer. I'm just curious if you can be direct about it. And you at the age of six or seven noticing that your mother was depressed means that she was probably depressed earlier. Yes. So your father's gone all day. Why is he gone all day? Why does he have a two-hour quimu? Why they live in the country he's going to the city because it means less time with his wife. Because if he truly loved his wife, as I sort of said earlier, if he loved his family, he wouldn't be working that distant, right? Because living in the country is a choice, right? Yes. I agree with that. So if he wanted to spend more time with his wife, he would have changed his work situation. And you said for most of your time, he was gone all the time. That's right. So if he wanted to spend time with his family, if he loved his family,

1:31:17he would have changed his work situation to spend time with his family, right? Yes. So he was lazy. He found something difficult, which was family time. So he just avoided it and called it a commute. That's lazy. I'm having difficulty with my wife. So I'm just going to work all the time. That's that's hedonism. Yeah. My wife is having mental health issues. I'm just going to go and work and ignore them. That's hedonism. That's lazy. Avoidance. Yeah. It's avoidance, right? And what are you doing? You're avoiding. You avoid questions. You avoid hard work. You avoid consistency. You avoid self-discipline. You avoid follow-through. And I say this with sympathy. Like we all do it from time to time, obviously, right? So I say this with sympathy. And please understand, I'm simply looking about, I'm not judging you in any way. I'm just looking at the cause of death. Your mother, when she began to feel depressed, what did she do about it? Not much. Fantastic. Okay. Not much means some. So what did she do? Unless this is another

1:32:19weasel phrase. No, well, she didn't seek out help. She didn't as far as I know. She didn't speak to my dad about it. She didn't speak to her. Okay. So what did she do? You said she'd not much, which means some. So what did she do? Yeah, I guess, I guess nothing. Okay. So not much is another weasel phrase, right? Yes. Now, no, it is, right? Yes. That's right. If you say, if you say to me, how much do you work out? I say, well, not much. And then it turns out I haven't worked out ever. That's a weasel phrase, right? Yes. And I'm not calling you a weasel. I'm just saying it's it's dodge. It's a dodge phrase, right? So your mother felt her mental health deteriorating and did not tell your father until the point where she truly lost her mind and she could have set fire to the house. She could have killed someone or herself or like, who knows, right? Yeah. She could have wandered into traffic and caused the five car pile up the killed three fucking families, right? Yeah. So your family avoids the shit out of everything. Yeah. Until there's a crisis. And

1:33:27that's what you're doing because you're 28, you're panicking about your future and you should. And so you're calling me and I'm glad you are, right? But I'm simply pointing out that this is a pattern in your family. Yes. Your mother doesn't speak to your father about her difficulties and you don't speak to either of your parents about being almost raped, right? And your brother's instinct is to disbelieve and keep secrets. So your family is passive and reactive, at least I'm excluding your brother because you know that's a mystery factor here. But your parents are lazy and avoidant and make excuses. Yeah. I mean, my dad's substituted taking care of my mom for work. So I'd say he's avoid, I wouldn't say he's lazy. I'd say he's avoidant. No, it is lazy. But yes, you know, it is lazy. Listen, I've been there, man. I became a great entrepreneur when I was having trouble with my girlfriend. I worked hard, but it was an excuse to avoid the problems with my girlfriend. Lots of workahol is a mislacy because it's a way of avoiding dealing with genuine issues in your life.

1:34:34And you can do that if you want unless you have kids. But where your father was most negligent was in the protection of his children. Because he left his children for the most part alone with the woman whose mental health was deteriorating to the point where she had a full-blown psychosis. And that, I don't know the phrase, nervous breakdown I think is just largely made up. I don't know exactly what it's like. It's not nervous. It's like something to do with the mind. So he left an increasingly irrational and deranged woman in charge of his children and did nothing. Have you ever talked to him about that? Only briefly in the passing. Maybe we will see a photo or we'll see something that reminds us of that period. And we'll have a very brief conversation about making sure that we take better care of Lomb and we'll say, she's doing much better now. And then we can't just... So we touch on it,

1:35:36that we don't go into great depths. Well, you know, see again, these are just we's lewits. I'm sorry, I just you got to get a habit. You minimize everything. We don't go into great depths. What fucking depths do you go into at all? This is a massive, dangerous, insane catastrophe in the family that your father was maliciously responsible for doing something about. And he had, he had over 10 years warning of deteriorating mental health and he did fuck all about it. Yes. So that's pretty catastrophic, isn't it? Yes. To the point where he put not just his family but for society as a whole in grave danger. And massively traumatized his children. Yes. As a result of him not proactively saying, listen, you seem to be counted down. What's going on? Listen, you said some irrational stuff this morning. I think we really need to get you some help or something like that, right? But he just minimized, right? And failed to act. And what do you do? You minimize and you fail to act.

1:36:41And again, I say this was sympathy, right? So the reason you weren't close to your parents is that you perceived that you were a burden to them. Now, if you perceive that you're a burden to your parents, how successful can you be in life? I'm not sure there's things connected. Well, to be successful in life, you have to believe that you can add value, right? Right. So I do a philosophy show and have these kinds of conversations because I believe I can add value to the world through these conversations, if that makes sense. Right? Now, if I didn't believe I could add any value, would I ever have started a philosophy show? No. I thought I was a pretty great programmer. So I wrote a bunch of software and sold it for seven years. If I didn't believe my software was any good or I could do any good as a programmer, would I have ever started that business? Well, no, right? No, of course. So in order to succeed, I have to believe that I can add value.

1:37:42We haven't talked about your dating history. If you could just give me 10 seconds on it, I don't know. Total mess. I've had maybe one long-term relationship when I was 18 and by long-term, I mean, it was only about a year. And then since then, I've had a number of I mean, young people now calling them situationships. I don't know if you heard it before. Yeah, but there's no particular commitment that comes and goes. All right. So do you believe that you can be a great husband and father and that a woman would be lucky to date you? In the way that I currently have, no, if I'm not mistaken, you mean to someone that you're all, you were someone else. Yes. So again, just do you believe it? Don't give me all these weasel words. No, no right now. Okay, when did you? When I was at right now, it's got to be some

1:38:43point of the kind when I thought that you were a real catch? What I was 18 in that long-term relationship and I was at university. No, no, no, you can't have believed you were a good catch when your mother was wandering the streets and being institutionalized. Come on. What woman wants to marry into that? Right? Yeah, I guess then no, I've never really thought that I was a catch. Okay, so you don't believe that you have much value to offer in the dating world and therefore you can't have a successful relationship. And if you weren't a value to your parents, if your parents who knew you who wanted you, they wanted to become parents. And if your parents who wanted to become parents didn't find you interesting, didn't want to engage with you, didn't want to spend time with you, did not enjoy conversation with you, and they know you better than anyone and they wanted you to begin with. How on earth can you feel like you have

1:39:44value anywhere? Yeah, I've never, I've never connected those dots, never thought of it that way. In the business world, you are fighting the undertow of your parents in different, in the dating world, you're fighting the undertow of your parents in difference. If my parents don't find value in me, then I'm a fraud if I expect anyone else to find value in me. I'm a con man. So you want to go out and provide value, but there's this undertow of, I don't have value. And it turns out that the guy you thought was your friend just wanted to molest you. And I'm sure there's countless other examples of betrayal. You think you have value. Don't have value. You think you have value. You don't have value. So you get this surge of energy to do things and then the fraud and the cynicism and your parents in difference kick in. And you're like, well, it's not sustainable. I mean, because deep down I have no value. So I'm just faking it. That's exactly it. I mean, how long can

1:40:47a relationship last if a guy pretends to be wealthy just goes into debt to rents expensive cars and goes into debt to take a girl to expensive restaurants or whatever, right? Rens a yacht, I don't know, whatever, right? How long can the relationship last if he's faking it? Yeah, not long to do it. And so it's going to all come crashing down, right? It's unsustainable. And so your energy and your efforts are unsustainable because deep down you have absorbed and accepted your parents for you which we all do. And you said, well, I can't add value. I don't add value. Right? Yes. Happens in relationships. Happens with your brother. You said you're munching off him or something like that. You don't add value. And that has to be challenged. If you want, like, I mean, I've used the term self-disciplined in this call. I'm not a huge fan of the term, you know, the self-disciplined and so on, right? What you have to do to succeed in

1:41:51this life is you have to challenge all the people who said, you're not important. You're not a value. I don't enjoy your company. You're negative. You're a problem. You're intrusive. You're a burden. You're a stressor. Right? All the people who say you have no or a negative value. You have to overthrow those perspectives in your mind. Which means you have to call all the people, and I'm not saying this is forever, or some sort of permanent situation, you have to call all the people who called you worthless assholes. Selfish, especially parents, because it's their job to instill in you the understanding, perception, and experience of having value. Because if you kick kids out into this world, and they have the perception that they don't have value, they cannot succeed in any consistent way, unless they're willing to completely abandon their souls and embrace being fraudulent. You know, a carman, like, of course, you're not a carman, so that's the challenge.

1:42:58And so it's just a mindset shift around... No, to conversation. These people... Come on, how long have you listened to what I do? How long have you listened to what I do? No, that's like a real question. Oh, I've listened, I mean, since I was 15 or so, okay, so 13 years. How many times have you heard me say you need to have honest conversations with your parents about the issues you have with you? Many times. Right. And you have chosen, and that's fine, you've chosen to not believe me and to not do it. So then when you say, gee, I don't really know what to do, and I'm sorry, I have another call which I've got to get to, so I'll just get back to some briefly. But yeah, you need to have honest conversations with your parents about if you have this perception, it sounds like you do, that you are lacking a value in their eyes, or you did not experience yourself as being very valuable to them. Well, then you've got to talk to them about that, because that's wounded you. And that's made it impossible for you to succeed. And you can't feel loved,

1:44:01and also feel like you don't have value to offer. I mean, I know the value that I offer to friends and family, and they offer great value to me. And I accept that. That's the only way I can have a sustained relationship. Otherwise, I'm going to feel like a con man. Now you may say, of course, well, I don't want to destabilize my mother or whatever's going on there. I get all of that. But at least recognize if you don't want to have the conversation, don't just be avoidant like your parents and just say, look for whatever reason my mom's too unstable. I don't want to drive a crazy again. Then whatever you can say, I'm not going to have that conversation, but it needs to be a choice, not just a default. Yes. All right. Okay. All right. Appreciate the call. Appreciate the call well done, by the way, to a tough series of things to work through, but well done. And I'm happy to chat again. And I hope you'll keep me posted about how things are going. Okay. Thanks. Thanks a lot of times to find out. I really appreciate it. You're welcome. Bye-bye. Okay. Thank you. Bye-bye.