498 THE SEARCHERS (1956) Part 3

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3:11www.t ThompsonSigar.com slash CineFiles that C-I-N-E-F-I-L-E-S and the discount will automatically apply. Some exclusions apply. Let's go. I'm hungry. While you're filling your belly, I'm going out to meet a command. Name Sika Trees. Never heard of him. Sika Trees is Mexican for SCAR. Hello and welcome once again to the CineFiles where we are continuing searching for the searchers. My name is Steve Morris. I'm a filmmaker and directing instructor in Los Angeles, California. Hello everyone. My name is John Roca, a writer, producer and host and voiceover artist down here in San Diego, California. I'm excited to be diving back into this film, Steve. It's really been a fun exploration and very challenging in all the best ways that a great film should challenge you when you are taking a look at it and stripping it down to its bones. I agree. We absolutely couldn't

4:16go into this very complicated movie without our incredible supporters on patreon.com slash the CineFiles. A few days ago, we just had our September advisory board meeting and one of the topics was of course the searchers. We had a lot of great comments, some of which I've been thinking about ever since as we're moving into this conversation. Of course, you can also support the show on Apple Podcasts if you're an Apple person. At both places, you can get ad free versions of the show as well as our CineFiles shorts. We just recorded one on the first four episodes of lanterns. So that's on Apple Podcasts as well as on Patreon. Yeah, absolutely. Another way you can support the show is if you do listen to the show with the ads, if you hear of a product or a service that you want to try out, we'd love for you to reach out to them and use our code. Most often, Steve and I are telling you what the code is. If you listen closely, we'll let you know what the code is and you get a percentage off and you get to try out the product and service and you signal to these companies. Keep coming back and supporting us every month here on the CineFiles. Right now, you're going to hear ads for Thompson Segar's true diagnostic. Quince, their clothes are amazing. Eleven reader,

5:20Omaha steaks and better help. So those are the things you can listen for the ads. If you want to try any of those out, you get a discount off using our code and we'd appreciate that. Thank you. So, John, are we any closer to finding Debbie on this incredible journey? Not yet. Not yet. We are about to dive into a letter. So, strap in everybody. We'll see how this goes because this is one of those Steve Morris specials where we go back and forth and time and jump into different places and we'll see how this goes. So bear with me as we jump into it. So where we left off at the end of episode two, we cut to the next day back at the Jorgensons and Charlie McCory rides up with a letter for Laurie Lars is shocked by this Steve. Who led us in one year by Golly? Mama, mama is Charlie McCory. Did he sense that Marty was gone? He's like, right, now's my time moving. Like the timing of this is really conspicuous. Well, it is, I think this is months after Marty and Ethan led.

6:24Well, it has to be because they got ambushed by Futterman. And so there, you know, a bunch of stuff has happened. Good call. So I, but, but there's no question in my mind that Charlie has been iron, Laurie and going and thinking I'm sure many men and women have had this thought of how long do I have to wait before it's cool for me to swoop in here? And it seems to me that Marty's been gone a long time and Charlie is ready to swoop. And I have my suspicions that Charlie read this letter ahead of time and know what's going to happen. And so he's now he's coming in with his courting courting shoes on. Steve, the way Lars reacts to getting two letters in one year, this man is head would pop off his shoulders if you ever got email. I don't think you could handle getting email and getting that many messages. One day, I've thought about this forever, which is prior to 1900, where it's mostly agricultural world is basically most people spent 98% of their time with no inputs

7:30going into their brain. You are out in the field, you were, you know, you were weeding, you were, you were milking the cows. There was no radio to play. There was no TV on. There was no newspaper. Maybe you got a newspaper. And then you would go in and you would talk to the same four or five people in your family. And then on the weekend, maybe it was market day and you would see 20 or 30 or 40 people as opposed to I rarely go 30 seconds without an input without seeing a text or a tweet or listening to my podcast or looking listening to the newspaper or turning there is, there is media coming into my head constantly. And for Mr. Jorgensen, it is two letters in one year. And I just, I think their brains, our brains have to be completely different because of our experiences are so different. But ironically, Steve, nowadays, it's actually all the way back to this time because it's a rarity to actually get a written letter nowadays in the post, right? So we would celebrate getting two letters in one year right now, ironically because we rarely get

8:30them written in this way. I need a letter. He should letter for you Charlie Brothers. Yes, if I figured it might be the years you've been waiting for. So I thank you Charlie. You're welcome. Say I rug its a boil sweet. So now Lori has this letter, Steve. This is a mystery letter we're going to have read. But Charlie McCory has bought it and said that it may be the news she's been waiting for. So maybe Charlie has been hearing from Lori or through the great vine that Lori is not going to do anything until she hears from Charlie and the fact part of hears from Martin and the fact that Charlie knows that it could be the letter is very interesting. I agree. And it's funny. I hadn't thought about Charlie reading the letter ahead of time. But him saying it might be the news if he's read the letter ahead of time, then he knows about the squat. Yeah, he knows about look. So that would make a lot of sense. I just question Charlie from top to bottom. Now we have this big commotion where everyone wants to hear the letter and everyone wants Lori to read it out loud. It's very quaint to see this. Steve, I mean, because remember, this is 1956 portraying 1870 something. And so

9:36it's very quaint in that way. Because still even back in the 50s, people were getting together around the TV to see what that was, right? That in essence was kind of like the letter. What's the information coming to us from the TV about the world or entertaining us with comedies or what have you? So I like that there's a little bit of a connection there. Come on, Lori. Oh, my, it's my letter. Well, of course, you're going to read it. Go ahead. Read it. She's been dreaming of getting a letter from Marty forever. For, you know, over a year, she's been dreaming. She will get the letter. And she has been fantasizing about what that letter will be. And the letter will be Dearest Lori each night. I think of your beautiful eyes. And I know that I'm so sorry. My life is empty without she's expecting this romantic thing. Yeah. So naturally, she doesn't want to read it out loud to her family because it's going to be very intimate. That's what's in her brain when I think she starts reading that letter. Absolutely. And Lars doesn't give a shit just like you didn't give a shit with Ethan when Ethan was was reading that

10:38letter by Lars watching information. Dear Miss Laura. Spell it with a wine instead of an i.e. thinking. Oh, spelling please. What's the difference? Read the letter. I take pencil and hand to let you know. Ethan and me still are trying to catch up with them. Command she's the late Mr. Futterman told us about. The late Mr. Futterman. That means Mr. Futterman is dead by golly. Oh, the poor man. Go ahead. Yeah. Charlie has now brought out his guitar to strum it. I guess as you do, Steve, when someone is trying to read the letter, especially when written by your romantic rival, right? And nothing distracts you from someone reading the letter from their romantic rival. Then you bring attention on yourself by playing that guitar in front of her. Well, Charlie brought the guitar because he, as Lars said, come a cordon. And one of the things you do when you're courting a young lady is you serenade her. Do you remember in the opening of Magnificent Ambrisons? Yeah. There's the whole thing about them coming

11:41to serenade. I think that's what he is like. I've got the guitar. I brought candies. I'm ready to do all the stuff to be courting this girl. But to choose to serenade her while she's reading the letter about another man, your romantic rival, there's a little nefarious thing in that. Yeah. Totally. At one of the agencies, we outfitted with all kind and manner of trade goods, figuring that it make it easier for us to come and go. Cut to a circle of Native American women as Martin trades goods with them to get a blanket. You'd laugh if I told you what was our biggest seller. And then we see Martin pop into frame with two bright blue ribbons, Steve, one for first place for the large type hog and another a participation ribbon for the large type hog as well. The chief does not like either of these ribbons, even if his daughter does. And Martin finally offers the

12:43young Indian woman a hat and the chief a hat. And that settles the deal, Steve. So several things about this scene. The first thing is the Native Americans are wearing these beautiful, brightly colored clothes. And these and this is just it's multiple levels of inaccuracy. So the first level of inaccuracy is that these are Navajo as we said before that are in the area and the clothes they're wearing are Navajo clothes. They're not Comanche clothes. They're also Navajo clothes from the 1950s. This is what they would wear at that time. And they're also they're fancy clothes. This is if they were to dress up for an event. So there's all sorts of things that don't make sense about it. And then to me and I'm not sure what I feel about it. But there is the whatever that we traded 27 dollars of beads for Manhattan. That kind of story of the mismatch between how trading worked in terms from the white settlers perspective to the

13:48Native Americans perspective. And frequently the whole idea of trading like there's cultural things that we don't understand each other. So I feel very weird watching this scene. And then I feel even more weird when I find out later on that they weren't trading for the the blanket that they were trading for the woman because it's like I don't know there's something very demeaning to me about how the Native Americans are handled with trading away this woman for two hats. You know like it's uncomfortable for me as I think about it. No absolutely and it's portrayed as comical right. Yes exactly. Of trading human being like as father trading their daughter for some sort of gift some sort of material gift like a hat. Something like a hat is enough for you to take the note. Now you could argue well this is achieved trying to marry off their daughters his daughters rather. And so there's certainly numerous ethnicities that have that tradition

14:50within them trading is a whole nother ballgame. And yes the way it's portrayed here is a light hearted but it's no less unsettling when you look at it now through 2026's eyes that this could happen you know. But the thing that I think the thing that's pentat... interesting to think about with this film is that I don't think any of the Native American performances are sliding to stereotypes of Native American performances. The things they do can be stereotypes that we've seen in films before but the actors who portray them portray them with a very no a confidence and a nobility that I think is kind of obscures that at times when you're watching the movie. Well in particular this character of look that we're going to come to know in the next scene she with her performance does not allow you to stereotype her. You know what I mean? Like she is a she is a real human who I think we feel for right away. Right. And her situation is terrible. It's just terrible and so I feel really bad for her.

15:50So it doesn't it doesn't go into that place of stereotypes. Let's go I think I stumbled on this star. You found it. Why are you going to learn to keep your big mouth shut. Get your horse and let's get out of here. Never let anyone outside the family know what you're thinking. This is essentially a godfather moment and Martin is still too young and stupid and and reactionary to understand the ramifications of what he's doing and thinking that in his mind well we're the white settlers. We are better than Native Americans at some point. We can speak about this openly. It's not that big of a deal. I wonder if that's an element of there as well. So and as Martin wraps up the blanket with goods we dissolve to him and Ethan writing together and Ethan tells him what he heard. And by the way I imagine this is all coming through the letter but now we're kind of intersting scenes that are connected to the letter that Laurie isn't reading but we're watching their actual dialogue happen here Steve. I mean it's using this is a classic narrative device to get out exposition which is that you have the letter to make the exposition bridges between sections which might be time consuming

16:53elsewhere and that allows you to jump forward in time and jump forward and get a whole bunch of information over a shorter space of time. What I heard back there was a van to hostile comment came through less than a week ago I asked it to a white girl with him. I got sullen, suspicious. Do you think I might have been? I don't know. He is carrying this anger and frustration throughout this whole thing with with Marty Steve. He's breaking a little bit I think by letting his emotions get the best of it in these moments. I mean I don't know what it could be like to you know chase year after year after a hopeless quarry that you really only have the tiniest threads of very very questionable information. The relationship with Ethan and Marty is Ethan is the person who knows everything. That's what we learn from the beginning of the movie when Marty rides gallops off on the horse and Ethan doesn't and Marty knows that but Ethan knows

17:54that he doesn't know whether he's you know if they're going the right way or not and I mean it's like I don't know how many times Marty has said his version of are we there yet. It's gotta get you know Ethan's got to get pretty wrong at some points. This is a good moment to ask you this because we haven't talked about this in the in the first two parts I don't ask you this like why does Ethan accept Marty as his companion on this journey because you know he could kill could kill Marty could kick Marty out you can make sure Marty never comes near like some some dog that's constantly running after me can actually do enough to steer Marty away from him but he doesn't and I wonder if the reason he keeps Marty around is Marty is his last connection to his family and by extension to Martha in this whole quest. But what do you because he keeps telling Marty that you're not it's not your cans that you says why you doing this but he still keeps accepting Marty on this journey. What do you thoughts on that. You know how when you're in your first acting class that they say to

18:57you the teacher says to you so what you need to do is figure out your motivation every chapter has a motivation you're like okay I am hungry I want to get food or I am in love with this person I want to seduce them and that's pretty good for first year and second year acting one motivation. Actually humans can have multiple contradictory motivations at the same time and I think Ethan is a perfect example. His main motivation is revenge he'd wants to be alone he doesn't he believes he's racist towards Marty he doesn't respect him he is angry he doesn't want anyone to question him those are all true Ethan is lonely yeah Ethan is a sad man Ethan is a man who as you said has lost his entire family his whole connection to reality and Ethan said in the scene earlier when they were at the Jürgenstins he says to Marty there's something I want to tell you but we don't get to what he says yeah and Ethan in a later scene is going to say is going to make Marty his air in his

20:01well yeah yeah I think Ethan doesn't frequently doesn't like Marty doesn't respect Marty his racist towards Marty doesn't want him around and on some level he loves him yeah so the only person he has in the world and also how can you expect a normal relationship from a guy that's completely fucked up so this is his way his really lack of a better term emotionally messed up way of showing his love to Marty's by letting him tag along right there's a great scene what's yeah in Francis right and now this says I got to love you that was never part of the bargain that I got to love you what do you think I did I put all these I put food on your table clothes on your back what do you think that means you know and so I love that the sun goes his son goes at that moment that you love me no these I have responsibility for you but that character does love his son

21:03yes and I think Marty I think you're right I think Ethan begrudgingly has a love for it remember Ethan saved him so in essence Ethan is his second father by saving him and giving him new life you know at the time when he was a baby well and this is what I mean by having multiple motivations because you can both want a thing and love a thing yeah yeah and desperately be pushing that thing away every second of your life absolutely absolutely now we see what we had kind of suspected following behind them and that is the Indian chief's daughter Marty thinks he negotiated for a blanket but he got more than he bargained for because he also got a wife in the process and we see her following behind them in her horse with her bowler hat on and this is look played by Abula Archaleta she was a she was yeah she was a member of the Gila River Indian community and did a few films and did some TV shows like wagon train how the west was won

22:04raw hide the Alaskans law man Bronco so she had a little bit of a career playing these characters but she was rarely credited in these role Steve so she might have been just like a glorified extra who got onto these things because of her work on the searchers and people knowing her name and her appearance and another interesting story about her on the set Steve is John Wayne apparently found her crying in one of the makeshift tensor TPs there and when Wayne asked her why she was crying it was because she was going to miss her son's wedding because she was filming her scenes at the time well Wayne apparently according to the stories on the set stopped production of the film for a few days and then flew her to California himself so that she could attend her son's wedding and then flew her back to shoot the scenes on the film and also just like the film John Wayne is a complicated guy because there are a lot of Native Americans who feel that John Wayne helped to create bias and prejudice towards Native Americans with some of his characters and some of his films but clearly there

23:06are stories of John Wayne being caring to the Native Americans on his films and the Native American actors that he worked with you know so it's complexity you know as human beings mostly are well and my guess is that John Wayne was capable of being a derogatory towards Native Americans at various times it wouldn't surprise me at all I think one of the big things is people are generally a lot better dealing with individuals than they are dealing with groups so when she became a person who was crying he reacted to her like he would react to any person instead I want to help this person out but when people are in a group that's where we start to do other stuff what she following this for all you you going back now go on look I changed my mind you can keep your blanket and she just smiles and nods at him so ironically Steve so we were just talking about how why does Ethan keep Marty around where here's someone who's going to be attached to Marty now in this situation who he may not 100% want around himself so

24:12it's fascinating how that looks this whole situation I think if if I'm going to spill you know pull away all of the things I don't like about this whole sequence yeah it is it is funny yes but it is also horrible and painful and I don't know like I don't think it is intended by John Ford to just be funny I think John Ford isn't just making a joke here he wants you to feel uncomfortable yes I don't know if he wants you to feel as uncomfortable as I feel in 2026 but he does want you to go like this doesn't feel good to me oh look you don't understand I don't want it you don't understand yet chunkhead you didn't buy any blanket you bought her you got yourself a wife sonny you better to get on back there what ever a whole family after our scouts for flotting one of their women folk no sir come on Mrs. Paulie so yes it's played for fun it's played for laughs but

25:16this is a guy who supposedly races towards Native Americans and here he is welcoming her into their mini tribe so to speak as they're going on this journey now whether it's playful and to dig at Martin I suppose there's elements of that but I also think this is an interesting color on Ethan to see him accept her and watch her degree part of the group it's such it's so weird and I don't think we get a clear understanding of what's going on for Ethan but the thing that I think is he's dealt with a lot of Native Americans yeah and you know in his time and he's traded with them and he's met with them and he's probably broken bread with them and probably some of those situations were okay and he's also probably been around a lot of white settlers men who did take Native American wives right and so and he was probably in their houses too so like his it isn't just Ethan is a racist although he totally is yeah but it isn't just that he hates all Native Americans he's got a sliding scale too that we don't quite get to understand my guess would be that for like a warrior

26:20he sees the women as this is you don't you don't they're not untouchable in terms of like you don't treat them like you treat the male warriors or the male soldiers that you fight the war right the women are hands-off and so you have to respect them and so there is an element of perhaps genuinely this in the situation here with look I wonder if that's operating underneath it as well there is one other thing I got to tell you before you hear it from Ethan how I got myself a why he dared and Lars clearly unaware of of Laurie's feelings for Marty or not even considering it says good a young man should get married early in life right mama mama is much more aware of her daughters affections for Martin and does not agree with her husband at all dude Lars like if you would live it in this house it was pretty damn obvious what your daughter wanted I also I also

27:25go man Marty like dude learn to write a fucking letter like this is the you like you're into this girl and you and you don't you need to start with I am not married yeah but there was a misunderstanding that happened like don't start with hey let me tell you how I got a wife I also you know they use the term squad and yeah I'm uncomfortable with saying it it is what's in the film but it's not it's not necessarily the nicest way to speak about this group of people of course yeah of course of course of course yeah but we also see Steve after a mama reacts to this the first of Charlie's patented Charlie McCorley's patented laughs which will see more than once through this section of the ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha that's a rough laugh let me tell you to hear in this situation I'm sure Laurie's not happy to hear it either go ahead and read the letter Maury yeah a little

28:25Comanche squad squad Laurie is living crumbles the letter and throws it into the fire Steve and as you said she was expecting a letter that was all about Marty's love for her and missing her and wanting to be with her and thinking about her every night and now she reads that he is essentially got himself married to a young Indian a young Native American daughter of a chief here so she is not happy at all and does her Laurie thing which is the extreme reaction by throwing the letter into the fire you think about how valuable a letter is when you only get one a year and it's burning up it's like no that is important reading material they scrambled to get that thing out so I married a Comanche squad and this time Lars joins in the laughing unaware of his daughter's embarrassment do Lars come on come on well and and in Charlie I'm so glad that John Ford

29:26made him do this accent because Charlie is tailor made for to irritate us yes it's just like the is like oh my god hate this guy she wasn't near as old as you how old is he think I am which is a great comedic beat again I say to Martin dude we're now cut to nighttime in the movie in Ethan we come back to Ethan and Marty Ethan is watching as Martin is being fed by his Indian wife who brings him coffee oh look I sure do wish I could make you understand look nae tisalae tisalae tisalae taku mae nae and then she says what her name is and Ethan understands Steve she says her name is wild goose flying

30:26in the night sky but she'll answer to Luke if that pleases you now is he telling the truth or is he making fun of her and telling Marty that her name is look as a joke what are your thoughts on this it never occurred to me that it was in the truth for this one like I like I always thought he was translating correctly what's so strange about this situation to me overtly is that you have the much more racist character yeah he hates Native Americans far more in Ethan being much nicer to this Native American woman and you have the guy who we think of as the ally who's more sympathetic being just horrible to her and and I just you know I just think about her and she's right what is she thinking and feeling she literally got sold to these two strangers to be a wife and she is working hard to fulfill that role can't speak to them and there's all these things going on around her that she doesn't understand it's just it's such an upsetting situation to me yeah but

31:30she's you know she's got a smile on her face she seems to be rolling with a situation so where's us all going to lead we'll see but Martin storms off now to Ethan's amusement which is why I thought Ethan was maybe making fun but maybe he isn't and he's making fun of he's he's definitely having fun with Martin with Martin yeah I just don't know that he's mistranslating the name right and Martin gets into his blanket like a child she gets into the bed next to her and Martin now wrote this with underlines physically assaults her and kicks her down the hill which is a move I have always had an issue with since the first time I saw this movie because as you said so well Steve just a couple minutes ago Marty is the one that's been presented as the counter to Ethan Marty is the one who's on this journey because it doesn't want Ethan to shoot Debbie or kill Debbie because Debbie was taken as a wife by a Native American chief or someone in the tribe and so for him to be this when he's trying to explain to her what situation is when he feels put out

32:33the fact that he physically assaults her and kicks her down the the hill pisses me the fuck off and it makes it makes me like like Marty less for doing this move and then Ethan laughs at it which makes it even more uncomfortable you know that's grounds for devours in Texas this is yeah this is one like the other stuff I was okay with because they were navigating but this is where it goes too far for me personally Steve so this is where to me it gets into this area and I agree with you by the way it gets into this area of the difference between having complicated characters who could do complicated and nuanced things that we may or may not agree with and what is the point of view of the filmmaker is that what I what I think saves makes the searchers a great movie is yes there are stereotypes yes there are all the things that we've talked about but the complexity of Ethan's character and his racism means that the filmmaker wants us to engage in these ideas yes it's not

33:35that the it's not that the film is just putting forth a racist view of the world it is doing that to some degree but it's also going look at the racist he is not a good guy and it's forcing you to confront that this moment I cannot see it any other way than that John Ford thought this was funny yes Joe played for a laugh and so yeah yeah and so he so the the viewpoint of the filmmaker in this particular case is that the abuse of this perfectly nice woman who has no idea what she has done or why she deserves that abuse and kicking her down the hill with both Ethan laughs at and John Ford expects the audience to laugh at that and that is why I have a problem with it this is this is why it's like I you know I would never say you shouldn't have horrible characters doing horrible things are even having characters we really really like do horrible things or have characters that we absolutely hate do good things I think those are all good for movies but when the filmmaker makes a joke out of this kind of abuse this really bothers me yeah and listen if

34:40I was to give Ford some level of benefit of the doubt in this situation as you said he's in he's a filmmaker in this movie who wants you to engage with the ideas to have Martin kick her down the hill in this manner in such an abusive way yes it's played for laughs because it's physical comedy but and we don't see her injured or anything like that which would really make it worse but what he could be saying though is what I brought up in the second part in our conversation is that no matter how good Marty thinks he is there's still an element of even racism in him the good guy so our society by extension yes the most the worst racist are the ones that we call out but is I mean like as Avenue Q said like everyone's a little bit racist possible yeah and so and so this moment could be John forgeway if I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt because I agree with your interpretation much more that if I was to give him benefit of the doubt this could be a little small moment where he's showing that even the guy who's been positioned as the person who is

35:42first of all one eighth a Cherokee I think it was and a person who wants to stop Ethan from hurting Debbie is still capable of doing horrific things to Native Americans and certainly kick her with both feet by the way down the hill conveys that yeah really rough well I don't think it's a dead burn funny but if you really want to do some good why don't you ask her where scar is and suddenly Steve we get a dangerous sounding music cue as Ethan stands up she heard you they both grab her by the arms and yank her up to interrogate her about scar and they are both like just absolutely in the many of it Ethan talks and commands you to her and gets her to answer but she doesn't so she gets marty so he gets marty to ask scar do you know where he went did he have a girl with him a hot white girl and she pulls away from them and runs away so that they essentially used her for a comedic beat but then we quickly switch Steve to something

36:43much more dramatic and underscoring the danger of scar that even she has heard of him and what's nothing to do with helping them get close to him and what's so great I think about how it's set up is it could be that scar is part of her family and she loves scar and that is why she doesn't want to give up the information and it could be that scar is the scariest war chief among the Comanches and will kill her if she gives any information both of those are perfectly possible but this is this character who we don't get to know what's in her head we only know that she was totally willing to please trying to be a good wife to marty and that she is now absolutely terrified and going to try to get away that's all we get to know exactly and the other thing that could be happening here is that she realizes who these guys are because it is traveled amongst the tribes that there is you know big shoulders and the one who chases coming after scar we cut to the next day

37:46an Ethan walks upon a rock formation in the shape of an arrow looks gone hold out tonight well Shane going back to her family that's for certain she took off the way that arrow was pointing well maybe you wrote a follow how should I know your wife which is another comedic beat there I guess to end that sequence of of the situations deep well the arrow is such a vague thing because it could be scar is this way I went this way I'm sending you away from where scar is because I'm trying to protect him like they wait you know an arrow is a pretty vague symbol in this in this situation maybe she left other signs for us to follow up we'll never know because it snowed that day and all the next week and we cut to Ethan and marty now riding through the snow and coming upon a massive herd of buffalo as Laurie continues Steve the landscapes are amazing in the in the

38:50monument valley and in the sun and in the dirt and clay and all of that but I love the way he shoots the snow scenes as well for those of you know and you know me I love snow movies like nobody's business I love snow in movies like crazy and I love the way it's shown here you can feel the coldness and you can feel the conditions that they had to endure and when it did snow in in the west in these in these times you know it's great too is that we're just so monument value monument valley in this look so going into the snowy look which is so contrasty I think it really it and it and it gives you a sense of the difficulty of this journey all of the landscapes and all of the weather because you're right it feels cold and we watch as Ethan and marty dismount grab their rifles and approach the buffalo an Indian sounding music you from the score kicks in as they approach the buffalo and shoot one of them causing a stampede we cut to Ethan getting behind a fallen tree to shoot at them but martin tells him as martin tries to stop him but Ethan

40:02knocks him down and continues firing and screens what a scene here Steve first of all the buffalo I think is majestic to see the buffalo in this way but seeing Ethan's prejudice here shooting all these buffalo because I think martin is saying we're not going to be able to carry all this meat why are you killing all these buffalo killing these defenseless creatures and if we find out Ethan's motive which is he doesn't want the command she's to be fed by these buffalo so he's killing as many of them as possible so they rot before they can use this meat to eat and feed themselves to fight you know so this is horrible on so many levels the the first of which is that he doesn't know where scar is and yes there might be native americans right in this area era who might want to use this buffalo herd as a food a food source which means sure he could be putting pressure on scar in his people but he could just be starving a whole bunch of innocent people of nothing whatsoever to do with what's going on yes the other thing about this is that this isn't

41:08like just a weird you know anti-hero in a movie who kills three or four buffalo this is a systematic reality for what happened in the great planes at this time is that there were millions of buffalo on the central planes tens of millions of buffalo and it was the policy yes we know that there were hunters white hunters who went out to hunt the buffalo and largely what they did because there was no way to transport you know three thousand pounds of meat back to New York and so the value of the buffaloes was merely the buffalo skin and fur so they would just skin them and leave these carcasses to rot and they and they had so much firepower at this point with rifled guns that they killed them over and over again and then it became essentially the official mostly official policy of the United States government to do exactly what Ethan is saying yeah we want to move Native Americans off this land so that we settlers can take it over and build farms and build homesteads

42:11and their food sources the buffalo so they encouraged buffalo hunters to go out and slaughter buffalo and between 1870 and 1880 which is right around this era yeah they killed we killed 30 to 40 million buffalo wow it 30 to 40 million they were like an ocean a wave coming over the hillside when the buffalo roamed we know when they give me a home where the buffalo roamed where it was millions and millions of buffalo that were the main food source for tens of thousands of Native Americans that were wasted slaughtered and left to rot in order to push them off their land and onto reservations war is a dirty business and when you engage in it you do some pretty horrific things and certainly this was one of those things Steve so yeah it's you know it's amazing how much we want to ignore the history of this country there are some terrible things that we did but just like

43:14Ethan we are a complicated country because we've also done some pretty amazing things and elevated some incredible people who've changed the world but also in our history we've done some pretty horrible things to people who we've seen less or deemed as less than and certainly that's something you bring up there and the way we treat animals you know the there is this horrible desire to kill animals within some people as well you know but the scene where the bison our shot was filmed in Canada's elk island national park John Ford had heard that park authorities were dealing with the brusolosis outbreak and outbreak and brusolosis is an infectious bacterial disease that spreads to humans from infected animals or unpasteurized animal products so he asked if he could send a camera crew to record them shooting the infected animals the calling in essence so what you see some of the footage you see of these buffaloes being shot are those people from the national park there in

44:15Canada shooting them dead so it is legitimately you're seeing buffalo die for real these are not trained animals that are dying at the sound of the gun shot so it's even more horrific than you thought watching the scene well except if they had to be killed anyway this is where I'm kind of like yeah I mean they were gonna shoot him all we wanted to do was filming it yeah I mean a lot of people will feel that's wrong I don't I don't feel that's wrong no I'm saying for me just watching animals getting killed oh sure that that is the unsettling thing for me but yes your reasoning course certainly makes sense and I think he is full a have now yeah in this whole situation and finally Martin yells loud enough for Ethan to stop and we see a bunch of US cavalry men riding with a bunch of female Native Americans leading the way so I don't know where this kind of yeah jars this or shakes us out of this horrific moment that was at between Martin Ethan and the buffalo thank god because as you said I think Ethan is fully around the bend oh yeah he is he is he is killing

45:17defenseless animals and fantasizing about killing commanding yeah and it's it's mind blowing to me Steve too is we just saw him you know supposedly played for laughs this moment between him and Martin and look and now we have these because they happen throughout the movie the second we start to feel comfortable with Ethan we might start to like Ethan there is a scene that follows that unsettled you and makes you yeah it reminds you right and I think David Chase was wonderful in doing this in the sopranos whenever you started to like Tony too much he made Tony do something pretty horrific so you would be reminded as the viewer this is the guy you're cheering for take a look at yourself and so I think John Ford is doing that in a way with Ethan Edward Strought this whole movie so we hard cut now Steve to Ethan and Martin riding down a massive snow covered hill and the calm upon an Indian village that's been wiped out presumably by these Rangers and we see male Indians Native Americans murdered on the ground this is a rough scene and again

46:20I think John Ford is making us aware trying to drag us by our noses to see what we did to Native Americans and putting a protagonist like this in his film is another way of making America look at our history which we seem to nowadays want to hide away from here is John Ford one of our great American directors making us could look at the things that we've done here as a people toward Native Americans and this what this wasn't a common scene in movies of that time so you know I you know I mentioned my mountain range metaphor for how we kind of can judge things from the past is that this is a place where he is showing America something that they really didn't want to see in the mid 50s you know it was an oyachikamacho right the ones we've been looking for all this time Ethan walks by a hut and stops he goes inside and we see the he sees that look was killed by these same soldiers what are the soldiers have to go and kill her for Ethan she never done nobody any harm

47:25we got a ketchup with him yellow legs maybe they got Debbie with them maybe they got that cheap they call scar by the way yellow legs is a nickname for the US cavalry at that time so Steve we're seeing both Ethan and Martin shaken by the death of look kind of like the idea of Native Americans being killed by soldiers in the in the macro level is something you have conversation about but when you see it in the micro level right in front of your face happening to someone who you had grown fond for over the limited time you had with them it kind of brings what happened here from a macro point of view into a micro point of view and they're forced to deal with it and both of them are shaken by so you and I both were bothered by the previous scene where look is treated the way that she's treated and Martin like kicking her and I had said that I felt that John Ford felt this was funny and that that bothered me it's so strange to say but in a way killing look which is horrible and tragic makes up for that

48:30because he obviously has purposely right manipulated you into a position of caring about and caring about her and feeling bothered by the way that Martin and Ethan treats her yeah and now he has the white folks kill her yeah we're gonna I think even I think in the 50s people would feel weird about that juxtaposition of the somewhat comedic scene to just this tragic death you know yeah well I think that's what John Ford is trying to make as I said trying to make us take a look at here we have in essence we have overlooked or dismissed Native Americans right historically in our country and here is a film that shows you that this woman was just trying to be the wife and trying to take care of them they both physically or Martin physically assaulted her down the hill Ethan laughed about it and then we see her die right and so I think there's a thing that Ford is making us come to terms with this stuff and accept it and try to do better and I wonder how much of

49:38this stuff is what leads to 20 years later or less than 20 years later in the 70s these movements these pushbacks these this anger aim that organization American Indian movement coming in and doing the things that they did is there's a frustration brewing as more and more communities of color or disenfranchised communities realize that they can have political power in our society and speak and do actions to make people look at the mistreatment from the white majority in our society so I think this is an interesting scene an interesting moment and when you bring up the the physical attack to as a juxtaposition of this it's it's interesting to consume it basically people like telling their own stories and people like hearing stories about them so when someone doesn't have much of a voice their their stories will only come out and dribs and drabs you know in tiny little moments right and it does take till you know people start telling the stories from the other perspective that we find out about them I mean I've read a bunch of books about Native American

50:41history the most devastating and powerful is Barry my heart it wondered me yeah yeah which is just over it this massacre that we see in this scene yeah it is that played out over and over and over again and it is always eventually the old men realize they can't win the war and so they make a deal and then the uh the US government breaks that deal over and over and over again and then some young men like scar yeah pissed off and say hey we're gonna fight back and maybe they do something like what scar did and then more cavalry comes to fight the evil savages until eventually scars generation becomes the old men and they make a deal yeah and then we repeat the cycle over and over and over and over again and you had mentioned uh Cynthia Parker who this book is somewhat based on well this is what happened to her she had been raised by a Native American tribe married one of the prominent chiefs had three sons and then along came the cavalry wiped out everyone in the village

51:46men women and children her husband and one of her sons and she and her other two sons or maybe as a son and the daughter are the only survivors so she is the the victim of horrible violence as a child from one side and then the victim of horrible violence as a mother on the other side and so she is a person and this is what happened in the west over and over again slaughters like we're seeing right here yeah yeah and it's also well her son I think becomes the chief of that tribe and it becomes the someone who bridges and has the conversations between the the uh government and their tribe to try to figure that out and if I'm not wrong I think Cynthia eventually takes her own life from the trauma of the loss of all those people and having witnessed it and been the the survivor's guilt that she has over because maybe she thinks the reason they were all wiped out was to save was to quote unquote save her and that's a lot to carry when you didn't ask to have that

52:46happen to so it figured Debbie had been in the village but look was doing there whether she'd come to warn him or maybe to find Debbie for me there's no way of knowing so what do you think Steve do you think look might have come here to try to find Debbie or do you think she was just in the wrong place of the road? I literally have no idea I don't think that you know that's I think that's kind of the magic of the movie yeah she could have been running towards scar to warn him running away from scar because she scared of him running to find Debbie to bring back the news to her husband all of these and this is the this is the thing about this movie uh is we only see through one particular perspective yeah like we never actually get to see the whole picture of anything yeah I pray for the day when we get a movie that's fully from the Native American experience that is fully like theatrically done and supported by a big studio because I thought killers of the flower moon was going to be that and then after the first hour it did not become that at all sadly

53:47but now we cut to the US Cavalry writing in with this military music queue from Max Steiner it's called cavalry crosses the snowfield and it sounds like something out of a John Philip Susa songbook we see Ethan and Martin preparing to go into the fort as we see numerous uh Native Americans by TPs watching the cavalry ride by saying or standing there as prisoners as they ride by or being hurted into a building with these cavalrymen almost whipping them in there with these tassled whips almost dehumanizing these people to the point where they become cattle again I think this is not a mistake John Ford is showing us all this to make us have a reckoning for how we treated the Native American throughout our history which is why I'm confused why so many people think this film is just 100% a bias against Native Americans when there are so many scenes that show you the horrific treatment of Native Americans by the soldiers and the government

54:50in charge it was an accident but the fact that we talked about revenge in the nerds uh the same time we're talking about the searchers is uh telling because it's uh you can look at a movie and go boy it does a bunch of these things that I really really rub me the wrong way that I really don't like and you can also look and go well what is the filmmakers intention is seen just like in the previous sequence his intention is clearly not to make you feel good yeah about what you are seeing because Martin and Ethan are are are as you said are are are perspective on this or point of view and they don't feel good about what they're seeing either so we're kind of being guided as the audience to be horrified by what we're seeing yes we're looking for a girl white girl captain should be about 14 now which is our first indication to see of how long they have been searching for 14 we've got two about that eight uh dragon all the white women in the chapel doctor yeah basically that we have the white women in the place of religious uh connotation in the chapel but all the Native American

55:53women were hurting them into this building as if they're cattle which is pretty horrific and the doctor wants to know what this girl is to them Martin tries to answer what's this girl to you she's my niece that's nice so he's still kind of strong alarming uh Martin a little bit Steve about the relationship with Debbie what was Martin about to say all good question sister sister I think I think Ethan prevented him from saying the word sister do you think he did that because he's still caught up in that whole thing or because it possible that he felt since Martin is Native American that that he could have been found out or do you think this is just he wanted to strong arm and about the relationship I think it's I think he does not want it's voice that this guy has a relationship with his family fair point fair point well we cut to the doctor and the sergeant leading Ethan and Martin into the chapel and we see some pretty um unstable a messed up women who are suffering the effects of having been attacked um and lost babies one is nursing a piece of a tree

57:00as a baby and yells when they walk in but is sued by the sounds of a cloth with bells on it that the sergeant uh shakes in front of her and then mart walks up on two teen girls and asks them to stand up and they are unveiled to clearly convey that they are mentally gone Debbie gets no response pulls out the doll that Debbie had to begin in the movie to get them to respond but they don't so Steve this has been one of the moments as we just said we saw a bunch of moments that really show the horrific treatment of Native Americans by the cavalry and by the military and charged at the time of the government um but this is a scene where some a lot of Native American critics of the film say that it shows that this is like uh it reinforces that what they do to white women and what is the after effects of them being taken so what are your thoughts on this scene Rob? it's honestly the most upsetting scene in the movie to me even though there are really really upsetting scenes you know Ethan coming down after finding Lucy's body Ethan discovering you know

58:04the homestead after it had been hit by scar like they're really upsetting scenes but this one it's like you're descending into some sort of pit of madness you know it's really really dark and I it's I think that certainly what Ethan gets out of what he sees is that this is the result of taking nice civilized white girls and bringing them into the torturous savage world of the Native American and it has broken their minds and spirits that is certainly what I think Ethan takes from what he sees yeah and then the question becomes what do we the audience take from what we see right and I think a lot of people could take exactly that you know I also think what you said which is that they might have just witnessed you know something like what Cynthia Parker experienced of yeah they're entire life everybody that they love slaughtered in front of them and they're in a you know in shock like that's possible too but I don't think the film indulges that much what I

59:05do think it does is shows the unbelievable lasting pain of violence yeah that's a great point the after effects and the what it does to people right and you're right the film only seems to convey that this is what happens when they're taken by Native Americans and it doesn't show the other and and there is no balance like there is no other other women who are in there who aren't as messed up like these ladies are right who from the situation not that you should ever do this right but like there's no balance so it makes it very clear that this is supposed to reinforce Ethan's racism against Native Americans or his fear of what's happened to Debbie for sure well and in particular the hopelessness of finding death oh yes you know because it's like if we find her she's going to be like this right we have to remember this is a movie so they still have to honor right the storylines with the further messages may be they've still got to honor the main storyline you're right there is deep uh the woman who had been screaming when they walked in

1:00:06screams and grabs the doll from Martin now and then the doctor chimes in with this really curious fucking line Steve it's hard to believe they're white they ain't white anymore they ain't white anymore Steve that's what that's what's gonna lead to that moment with Debbie later on in that dirt bridge when Ethan pulls out pulls out the gun you know and Martin has to stand between her and him this idea that once you've been defiled by a Native American you are no longer white you are commanding or in this situation command you this specific drive but it's rough man I know I'm a broken record but the it's the fallacy at the basis of that there is something that it is to be white yeah and there is something that it is to be not white and so it's some magical point in these women's lives they transitioned from whiteness to not whiteness which of course is

1:01:10code words for civilized to savage and you can even ex oh sorry good finish points first thing and there isn't there isn't such a thing like yeah but I know I'm a broken record at this point well and you can even extend it outright because there are members of there are members in the white community who think if you as a white man or white woman marry or get with in terms of boyfriend girlfriend a person of color then you're somehow defiling yourself as a white person there are elements of that in those communities as well because yes as you said it like weats tend to connect whiteness with America like they're not necessarily mutually exclusive but they are because not every white person is necessarily a hundred percent American there been a quite a few people who've committed treason against America who were white and there are quite a few people of color who are American and so it's like this idea that white is necessarily American this is the I think this is an element that the film is like confronting you know and it's fascinating it's

1:02:10fascinating because we're post-war war two and all the stuff is said we're in the boomer generation where they're building their houses and all the stuff's happening people coming back financial in the 50s it's a fascinating film in terms of its timing and the things that it's putting in our faces as we watch it it he John Ford really doesn't let you sit comfortably in this movie and this is why these one of the greatest films ever made of course we think that yeah and just as Ethan is about to walk out we hear the mother start to rev up her ooze and grunts as the camera slowly pans in on Ethan who is staring at her with a mix of anger and revulsion Steve that shot of him and the lighting that comes in like under the brim of his hat and it is so incredibly dramatic and I think really scary because because what the you know like between the thing that Marty said to Laurie about he gets this look in his eye and the knife and you know she's not white anymore and all these little breadcrumbs to he's gonna kill Debbie yeah that's

1:03:13that's where that's where I feel like I am at the end of this scene that's a good point yeah I wrote here is he thinking about his mom who was killed by Native Americans he's thinking about Martha who was killed or Lucy or Debbie or others he may have counted in his years away from Aaron and Martha's place on his travels that he's seen be killed or or affected by Native Americans in this way is he thinking about all of that in that shot and I think people should remember this shot because it's I put it as a how can I say this two sides of the same coin because it's when he sees scar Ford has a close-up shot of him as well and you could argue that both of these looks are companion looks in a lot of ways we go to another building as the doctor says maybe you can help us identify them all white all captives there's the white girl there and Ethan walks over lifts up a blanket and says no so we're setting up for New Mexico territory in the morning

1:04:14I am sorry I won't be back for Christmas again this year I remain respectfully yours truly Martin Pauli yeah they never find that girl up never so even he's lost hope and he takes the letter and walks out I mean how many years are you going to spend yeah the the Lars like we got to we got to milk the cows we got to bring in some grain we got to feed the chickens we got to we got it we got it life to live and Martin and Ethan have they've given up on life for six years yeah however long it's been my he had to sign his whole name Martin Pauli couldn't write just Marty very strong statement yeah yeah to Laurie is very loyal like this is years have gone by he's written one letter miss spells her name says

1:05:15he's gotten married and then signs it with the full name and she's like I'm still I would like I'm still want to wait around for this guy yeah and she storms out and I think a mom calls after Laurie Laurie but then mama wants Charlie to stay Charlie you stay for supper I won't take no for an answer and of course Charlie who now has a clear runway to Laurie I'm not saying no never entered my head was jorgasund ain't no place I'd draw the billion right here right now and he walks up on Laurie who is looking out in my opinion thinking of Martin and he suddenly starts to sing skip to my Lou my Dirty this is such a fascinating decision by him to sing kind of his uplifting song right when she's like in this place of sadness and missing Marty it's an interesting decision that he isn't even listening to her or or like recognizing her feelings Steve and he just focused on trying

1:06:18to get to Laurie so it can be with her it's insane oh I I think he is totally recognizing her feelings oh and he is going I am presenting myself as an alternative to the asshole who is not here won't be here and obviously doesn't even know how to spell your name I could spell your name that's what I think he's doing that's a good point maybe he is a word or catch that moment to catch her when she's we can get him but yeah you had mentioned earlier Curtis had been a singer with several big bands and so you can tell that his country accent disappears when he sings this song because he's singing it as an actual uh uh uh balladier show we say so now we cut to this next section of the movie we see Ethan and Martin writing against a beautiful orange sky Steve they and then we see them walking towards a cantina Ethan stops before they go in and looks at a horse that has a subrera on it but as they turn around Steve we see that Ethan's hair now is almost full gray and even Martin looks older too Jeffrey Hunter looking a little older in this shot as well so clearly a lot of time now has

1:07:24passed since that letter and since the whole situation has happened I think the Duke looks good is kind of a silver fox I like the gray look I agree it almost softens him a little recognize it that couldn't be too like that in the whole world moves and Steve moves who we haven't seen in quite some time in the movie excitedly jump into frame as the mexican bartender starts talking to them in Spanish basically welcome them to the bar you're right about the Shakespearean comic relief because by the time we got to the scene with Laurie in the bathtub and all that stuff it was like oh thank god and now we just had some serious between looks death and going into see these women who are in just obvious terrible straits yeah it's nice to see moves yeah I agree it is nice to see moves and especially because moves is excited to see Ethan he's almost like a dog that is leaping when you walk through the door Ethan too good no sir not too good get no you're far

1:08:30old been helping Ethan been looking all the time I'll reward still stands and then moves pauses when he hears this response from Ethan and all of a sudden a much more somber tone comes into his voice don't want no money Ethan no money Marty just a roof over old moves his head and a rock and chair by the fire you help us find that girl you got your rock and chair swear at Ethan given word I told you didn't I so this is interesting I had no idea that moves was doing his own excavation is there a separate film called the searcher which is moves going off to try to find Debbie I mean I think moves searching is that he ends up at a different bar and happens to mention there's a girl and would you can anyone buy me a drink and then repeat I think that's the level of his searching yeah but what do you think about his somber tone here man does he seen some stuff in the search as he is he losing faith himself

1:09:32like there's something really interesting about the somber tone and is he getting like I almost feel like he's the member Quikwa in the Moby Dick movie like he knows when he's going to die it almost feels like moves has a sense that his time is running out just the way he talks about the rocking chair and the rocking chair by the fire that's all he wants and there's just something really interesting about life as we get older and older we spend a majority of our life pursuing wealth and status and accomplishment titles and all this kind of stuff but as we get to a certain age man all that shit means nothing it's about comfort and peace in some way before you roll on and I I sense that the moves we see now is a is a bit more of a circumspect moves than the moves we met at the beginning of the movie you're going to think that this is a crazy analogy or maybe you won't but it was it's we've been talking Shakespeare it seems to me that moves is to some degree a Shakespearean fool you know he is and the thing about the crazy person or the fool in this sense is there's kind of two possibilities one possibility is they really

1:10:34don't understand what's going on around them and they're crazy and they're just responding to whatever their you know as craziness is coming up inside of them yeah the other possibility is they see absolutely through everything that's going on around them they realize everything that's going on around them is in fact crazy yeah and therefore the only way to respond rationally to a crazy world is to be crazy yourself and that's sort of the fool in lear you know like the fool in lear clearly sees things that lear doesn't right I think to some degree that's moves I think moves thinks it's hilarious to make jokes when they're under fire and and to weird every and he knows that he's doing that and in this moment with when he suddenly gets serious I think he is revealing like no no I understand what's going on right I just want a rocking chair under a nice roof next to the fire like like yeah so to me that's I see him a little bit more as a performance of this crazy person yeah who knows more than he lets on that's how I see it in

1:11:38this moment well after most says what he says Ethan spits out the bad tequila and I have here Steve have you ever had bad liquor in your life have you ever spatted out on a bar I've certainly had bad liquor I don't think I have spatted out at a bar I've never spatted out liquor on a bar and I've had some pretty bad liquor for sure yeah um and moonshine growing up in Virginia Jesus Christ Jesus Christ if you've never had like moonshine from someone who is making it in their backyard or in their house somewhere uh you haven't really lived in my opinion and I've had malorat I have not had malorat yeah I had two shots of that at the Chicago live show because I wanted to test how much I could handle of that shit and the taste of it but it was I almost felt like it was breathing fire Ethan I found a man has seen her nose where a little debris is where is he and Moses as if to kind of reinforce that he's going to get that rocking chair says promise

1:12:40just one word which I think connotes are it connotates are you really going to give me everything that I'm asking for and now Ethan moves closer to Moses and almost gets in his face Steve so we see this guy who had just been so jovial with Moses and happy to see him and having some bad tequila with him now the mania of finding debris takes over and he gets in Moses face and he says who is this man and an older white bearded mexican man stands up and reveals I am this man sonor a milio graviel Fernandez he figured out who was played by Antonio Moreno he has such dignity like so so much presence when he shows up and he is a fascinating guy yeah he was born in Madrid in 1887 he debuted in a silent film in 1912 called Lola's promise and did tons of silent films with big big movie stars he acted with tyrone power Dorothy Gish he's with the famous players he acted with Clara Boe Garbo and then this little thing called

1:13:44talking pictures came along and suddenly this guy with this heavy Spanish accent couldn't get work anymore and so he ended up moving down to mexico and was a huge actor and director in mexico for years until back in the 30s he finally was able to come back up in a hollywood and he acted in thing he's in the creature for the black olgoon yeah this guy had a long long story career from the silent era through mexican films and then back into us films yeah I did some research on it because I had no idea who this guy was and when I was doing some stuff I mean he was he was going toe to toe with Valentino for lead roles in the his romantic movies that's the level this guy was at when you talk about silent movies and as you said work with a lot of the big stars of that time and had to find his way back to hollywood after the talkies but his name is a combination of the names of the mexican actor and director Emilio Fernandez and his cinematographer Gabriela Figueroa both of whom were friends of director john for so that's why his name is that way and I do want to read

1:14:48one thing from the actor here Antonio Moreno because this quote struck me Steve he said the only real formula for real success is work and faith all may achieve this sort of success for all may work and the only happiness the only success is in labor other rewards do not count comparatively the joy of leisure is an illusion the chief reason for my liking cereals for as long as I did because he made his bones and cereals as well was because they kept me constantly at work whereas feature pictures do permit I do the permit of letting you off for a week or more and there's too much idleness in between so this is a guy that just like to work all the time and did everything possible to keep working so there are some actors who are just workhorses bro you know I like this guy yeah I just serve for a price and that's the second time Steve that we've kind of confronted with the fact that there's someone who is uh can help him help Ethan to modify Debbie but he wants to get paid you know like uh federalman did earlier in the film as well the difference is is that

1:15:49this is an honorable guy yes and and federalman's not like it and I mean I think people are people should get paid you know yes yes goes along with his his whole thing about working but he didn't work yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah uh that a woman who was behind him starts to dance with her castanetas and this is Carmen Emilio Pors Ethan and Moza shot a bourbon Martin moves his glass in to get a shot himself yeah I think I like to boil you grow up which moves Martin away from the bar Emilio then asks for tobacco from the bartender who pitches his as the best tobacco in the world and he hands him cigars and then Emilio offers Ethan another shot and Ethan's done with this bullshit ignores the request grabs a small sack of money from his pocket tosses it on the bar and says let's talk a little business a couple things to jump in on this about this one is there's I don't know if you came across this story in your research but there's a John Ford story of working of dealing with an executive that I think might very well be about this moment although I know 100%

1:16:52sure yeah which is that apparently the movie studio or whatever had made a deal an advertising deal with the cigarette company so they really wanted to have people smoking cigarettes in their movies not cigars so he's he's visiting the set and he's like can we not have them do cigars we I want them to do cigarettes and the word comes back to John Ford and John Ford says we're not going to do that the guys are fucking idiot and then a pants and they put so they put cigars in the movie but word got around on the set and it got back to the executive and the executive confronts John Ford and says I understand that you called me an idiot and John Ford said I don't like to be misquoted I called you a fucking idiot. That's what you get for trying to confront John Ford. Yep never a good never a good idea. We cut to Carmen who is now dancing in the kitchen and using her custard yet as as Martin is now seated at a table and enjoying his food trying to eat his food so

1:17:57frustrated Carmen now unable to get Martin's attention grabs her own plates since down with him to eat with him and have some drinks as well but then Ethan walks in and tells Martin. Let's go come on Greg. Well while you're filling your belly I'm going out to meet a command name Sika Trees. Never heard of him. Sika Trees is Mexican for scar and then throws the liquor onto the fire which sets the whole up and on fire and it was. Talk about moonshine. Jesus Christ I don't know. I mean I rode here. What the fuck was in that drink? Yeah. This is a pure gasoline. So what's the logic with having the Carmen scene here Steve? Why is she introduced in the bar ushered into the kitchen and then is trying to distract Martin? Is this some kind of thing to show us that Martin is an attractive guy and the women like to be with him because we saw that with look and certainly Laurie or is this something like he's just so not interested in anything else but

1:18:59finding Debbie like you tell me what this whole point of the scene was with Carmen. I think it is a remnant from the book because in the book they spend like two years in Mexico and they are traveling thinking Debbie might be in Mexico and there's actually a scene that's it is a really well written book. I mean I'm not going to say this is one of my favorite books of all time but I really was impressed with it and there's a scene where essentially Marty goes to sleep with a Mexican prostitute and it's pretty clearly implied that he's a virgin at that time and she becomes first impatient with him and then kind of realizes there's a lot of emotion in the situation and it's actually kind of a lovely scene and I wonder if that made enough of an impression on Ford and the screenwriters that they preserve some echo of that kind of moment here that's kind of my supposition by the way the other thing in the book yeah so the Mexico thing happens and then

1:19:59it's a year later and they still haven't found Debbie and Marty is now convinced that she's dead and they're never going to find Debbie and he has made the decision to quit and go back home and marry Laurie when they meet this Mexican gentleman who has information about Debbie and that stops him. Now how would have been interesting to have Martin be there but again Martin is a different character in the book that he is in this movie so yeah that would make sense for the Martin in the book as opposed to the Martin in this movie so but I will say this most clearly although we think he's been as you said they've gone bar to bar he clearly found someone yeah who does know scar so Moses has been doing his job so again someone should shoot that movie as a mini movie we now cut to three Native Americans writing their horses in monument valley again another gorgeous shot Steve and Emilio is leading Ethan and Martin and what I can only assume is Emilio's crew to meet scar and they come up on a tribe of Native Americans their outfits though are very striking Steve and the bright

1:21:01colors of the women's clothes is so vibrant in this 4k transfer it's really a gorgeous moment as they write into this Indian village yeah I think it beautifully highlights the historical inaccuracy of them there's great it's one of those things where it's like does it look great yeah it looks great colors beautiful absolutely beautiful is it you know and is it also just like a caricature and you know clothes from different yes it's all that too right but I also think this is a subtle support moment from John Ford he wants to show the vibrancy of the Native American culture he wants to show how proud they are how beautiful their designs are like these are all little things that work on a subconscious level to have you appreciate these people and the pride of these people you know they get off their horses in front of a specific tent that of course is bigger than the others and Ethan looks around it says medicine country huh bad medicine I think so what do you think they mean by that to Steve medicine country then bad medicine is one of those

1:22:05lines that I have no idea what it means but it sounds really cool I understand so what what A I love Emilio I think he just he has so much presence and you feel that this is a wise man with understanding and stuff like that but honestly I think I don't know what the term medicine country means yeah I understand that bad medicine I think is a reversal you know like better know this feels like they said medicine country to set up the secondary line that's how it's to me yeah possibly possibly yeah and just then scar who we have been waiting to see against even Ethan and Martin have been looking for scar comes out of his tent with the appropriate medicine sound cue and we cut to a close up from slightly below Ethan's face this is the close up I was talking about from earlier to show him grasping that he has finally cut up to the man who took Debbie and I can't help but think that all his rage in Native Americans is encapsulated in this shot of his face and I also say this Steve I think the shot the way it's framed because no other shot

1:23:09is framed like this in the movie it's a callback a little bit to stage coach because there are shots of Wayne in stage coach that are similar to this shot here and I think John Ford is giving a lot of love to John Wayne here in this shot because he looks great and powerful in this moment you know well and scar looks powerful yes the the the thing about the way this has all been set up is there is a sense of balance of equals of equally angry equally competent equally violent men yeah now finally brought face to face absolutely yes I said right here scar just stares at him in stillness and gives nothing away at martinus transfixed as well because this must be so crazy for him to see him finally after all this time and as we said earlier this is Henry Brandon who is playing chief scar of the command cheese his real name is Heinrich von Kleinbach and Steve do you have anything on Mr Heinrich von Kleinbach I do he had a 60 year career over a hundred films wow his first movie

1:24:14was Sign of the Cross in 1932 when he was 22 years old and he played a villain and then he played a villain a lot in how roach movies he's in tarzan in the she devil he plays Jesse James in hell's crossroads he's again playing Native Americans for John Ford and two rode together and then and this is where it gets kind of upsetting to me oh is when you are a kid did you ever watch a TV series called F-Trupe yeah of course F-Trupe yeah on repeat black and white yeah so F-Trupe is like the comedy the sitcom of this era of the old west oh yes with the cavalry and with the Native Americans like the local tribe and he played the chief in the pilot the Native American chief in the pilot of F-Trupe and it just is like oh yes so even the late segment the late 60s you're still playing cliched Native Americans you know a little bit weird and and of course this is the

1:25:17thing that John Ford was happy to cast a local Navajo actors to play most of these parts but yeah he had to get a white guy to play the main Native American villain as you say and as I said by the name here I think you can guess he's German he's a German Jewish guy with blue eyes so it's a Jewish guy playing a Native American with blue eyes and it's those blue eyes that got him the part because Ford liked the way he stood out Henry actually went to him and said why did you choose me for this role because I've lost roles before because of my blue eyes and John Ford said no that was the reason you got the part because you stood out with those blue eyes and I wanted you to be separate from the other Native Americans on the movie and stand out in a different way sometimes your eye color works your favor in this business of actors I'm still I'm still I'm still I'm still waiting John I'm still waiting for my eye color to do me any good yeah Emilio says well you I mean yeah look at Richard he's a good looking dude you're a good looking dude but maybe

1:26:17different things that the different roles that you're up for but you're not putting yourself out there so what are we talking about here so yeah I'm waiting for someone to see my eyes I just give you a rope yeah I love it Emilio says good afternoon boss to scar in Spanish and then introduces scar to Ethan and Martin with this kind of regleness and respect he says this is the great secretaries watch me scar I think walks closer to scar in a challenging way playing the see how you got your name and scar reflexively touches his scar which is an interesting move for a chief is it one of embarrassment or one of anger or that anyone would dare to bring up his scar because I can't imagine that anyone would bring up his scar to his face without getting punched by this man or killed by this man you know well and I think a white man gave him that scar oh great point Steve you big shoulders young one he who follows just big pretty good American

1:27:27or a come ash someone teach you so he doesn't say you speak pretty good English he says you speak pretty good American which is an interesting point here to look at Steve the someone teach you condescension is so because and it's and it doesn't make any sense at all well it's like someone taught all of us our languages nobody you know true that's true like people didn't magically just be given like you nodded the matrix and they plug you in and you're like I speak French you know like that's how it works don't really you have to get taught but what it is saying someone teach you means you couldn't have earned this on your own right you couldn't you because you are inferior and so it's and I love it I mean I don't love that he says it it's fucking awful but I love where it's gonna go with scar turning around on him in a moment yeah because there's a connotation here when he says first of all do you speak you speak pretty good American again when we spoke about earlier people think being white and speaking English makes you American and so it's like it's

1:28:29it's some people connect the two right marry the two but I also think this idea of you speak pretty good American for comment it's his way of saying you speak the in language the language of my country now yeah this is my country the fact you speak that so well did someone teach you right and as you said scar is gonna turn that around on him um spars a scar then speaks angrily to Emilio in response to this which Emilio returns trying to explain the situation but Ethan understands what Emilio was saying in command she says but before they go in as as Steve just teased he stops and says to Ethan you speak good command someone teach you and walks in before Ethan can respond and I think that scar saying no bitch this is my land it's impressive that you can speak my language in my land I mean anybody learning another language is hard and it's generally the same kind of hard

1:29:36yeah yeah exactly uh Martin starts to walk in the tent you stay out of here not likely so this is the first time I think we've really seen Martin push back on Ethan that he is no longer gonna be Ethan's boy so to speak yeah I think this is a key moment in his evolution and it comes right after Ethan wouldn't even let Marty have a drink and Marty he's got to be in his 20s at this point I mean he's a grown-ass man and I think if you've been out all day traveling the range you should have a drink but Ethan denies him the drink throws away the other drink and makes Martin chase after him and this is the first moment where he goes I'm an adult I am not yeah and and I will be in that room yeah and she is my sister no matter what you want to deny it she's my sister and I'm going to be in that fucking room yeah and I don't know that you're not going to kill her the second you see her good point they all sit down now Emilio and Scar on one side Ethan and Martin on the other his sons are dead so his wife sit on the youngest side of his lodge and we see these four women

1:30:39in a circle meeting some corn with one conspicuously with her back to us for all those his wives two sons killed by white men for each son I take many and he can't find the word he's looking for which Emilio provides with a bit of shame in his voice as he looks down scouts clearly this is another man who is damaged and we've been teasing this throughout the these episodes Steve he is part of this years-long feud and he has killed white man and he's taking the things from white man because white man took things from him so it's just repeating the cycle of violence over and over and over again so it's another way that scar and Ethan are very compatible essentially two sides of the same coin you know what I keep thinking about and it really comes to the fore in this moment is you know the the the parable of the blind man and the elephant yeah yeah please tell it though is is so the idea is that these blind men are

1:31:40brought to this to describe this thing in the world and they reach out with their hands to touch it and one man reaches out and says oh it's a snake because he seals something thick and powerful and another person says no no no it's the trunk of a tree because he feels something wide and heavy and another one feels something that's very very thin and curled and he says no no it's a it's a thin rope and someone else says no it's a it's a giant heavy heavy wall and of course all these blind men are just have their hands on different parts of the elephant that the the trunk is a snake the tree trunk is a leg the wall is the side the tail is the rope and so what you know the parable is about we only know the what's in front of us we only see what we see and this is a movie where Ethan can only see from his perspective right and he sees a limited frame he sees this and this but he can't see scars experience and scar can't see Ethan's experience from his experience a bunch of white people came and killed my sons yes and that's what and he doesn't know who those white people

1:32:42were or why they came or anything else and so that's his experience and it occurs to me like what is the visual motif of this movie it is the door from the dark space opening the light or the light going into the dark it is always about what is obscured and what can be seen and none of our characters Laurie spends year after year after year with one letter from Marty limited viewpoint of what's actually going on in his world Sam suspects that Ethan could be a criminal but at the limited viewpoint he doesn't really know everybody Marty doesn't know what's in Ethan's heart even though he spends every day with him and that's why I kept going back to this the blind man in the elephant and how each of the characters in this movie is limited by their perspective and can't see the whole picture that's excellent absolutely breakdown of that stuff and I would add just one extra connotation or one extra note to you what you said is it also leads to what we allow in and what we shut out those doors right what we allow into our society or into ourselves and what we shut out

1:33:46and I think that's you know an addition to what you were saying which was fantastic scar tells one of his wives to bring over his stick of scouts Ethan and Martin look up and they see that it's Debbie the great Natalie Wood here very young Natalie Wood here and the music cue lets us the audience know that this is Debbie I think that this moment is a perfect filmic moment because we don't see at first we see Martin react yes and we see Ethan react to quash Martin's reaction so that it is not visible and and we know before they cut to Natalie Wood oh my god it's Debbie like like and so that makes you know you could have done it the other way which is you see a woman first and then you see them react to her but that wouldn't have this dramatic power having them react and then of course I think there is a it is pretty Hollywood because boy Natalie Wood looks lovely I mean she

1:34:49looks she looks as pretty as can be and made up at the air in perfect place obviously we first saw Natalie Wood in Miracle in 34th Street as a little kid which is by the way her first film she was born Natalie Acherenko in San Francisco in 1938 the child of Russian Orthodox Jewish immigrants oh her first film was actually the moon is down in 43 and then she you know she acted with Orson Wells with Claudette Colbert she's in the ghost and Mrs. Mirror Miracle in 34th Street is 1947 so it's a little farther in and then you know she is a huge teen star and this is coming right after or I think it's right after Rebel Without A Cause which really explodes yeah the stratosphere and of course the splendor in the grass and we talked about West Side story and in the 70s you get into some movies like Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice which is as 70s a movie as you could possibly have and of course you know the end of her life is very troubling and

1:35:50what exactly happened there and who is responsible and you know there's all sorts of darkness around the the last decade of Natalie Wood's life yeah for as much as people love walking and doing the walking impression walking was an element of what happened there and Robert Wagner as well we will never know what really happened and there's all kinds of conspiracy theories about what happened with her on that boat and how she drowned you know which is really a shame such an incredible actress get swallowed up by yet another sorted Hollywood story for sure and we see Debbie there in full Native American costume but Debbie does not look at them and I don't know if that's because she's been trained not to look by scar at anybody he's trading with because it's you know we know the the old the the old ideas of women are meant to be this and men do this and all of that or if maybe she is scared to look at them because they are whites could they be the people from her

1:36:51past I don't know but it's interesting to see her not look at Thursday I think it's one of the strange things is is later on when she does recognize Martin she speaks in perfect English and seems to remember everything you know what I mean at a certain point and so that doesn't that doesn't play quite right with her behavior in the scene you know it's like because it because it either is she recognized Martin and Ethan the second they wrote into camp right and knew exactly who they were or she saw two white men right into camp and she knew that they had slaughtered you know the people would look and things like that and she's really scared but I don't think we see either of those things I think I think she's playing it very neutral well let me ask you another question do you think scar I mean scar has nicknames for Marty and Ethan already yeah big shoulders in the you who follows right so do you think scar knows that Ethan and Marty are coming after him and that's why he calls for Debbie to show the scouts to them as a show of power to Ethan and Martin like

1:37:55trying to get them to react trying to put them on set show that I've got you girl and there's nothing you can do about it do you sense that that's maybe something scar is doing or is this just dumb luck that he chose the one wife who is connected to Martin and Ethan I can't think of any way that it isn't on purpose yeah and and and on in the book it definitely is in the book scar knows for years these guys are coming after Debbie and would consciously leave clues oh wow to get them to go certain places and disappoint them over and over again and by the time you get to this scene it is absolutely 100% dangling Debbie in front of them on purpose what you've seen scales before as Martin tries to process what he's seen and tries to compose himself as Steve said because Ethan grabbed him to stop him from reacting too loudly to the situation scar then responds to Ethan seen this before as he holds out a necklace from his neck and it's the metal that Ethan gave Debbie at the beginning of the movie so as you said Steve in the book he's dropping clues he's

1:38:59just putting this right in Ethan's face that he knows exactly who this is Ethan now stands up and half his body is off frame which is an interesting framing by John Ford as scar and Emilio look it up look up at him it's almost a dominant position that Ethan has put himself in now and he won't let scar know that he has affected him I came to trade not to admire his collection telling me will pitch camp the other side of the creek talk tomorrow and they all walk out of the tent except scar what a tense scene here brother it is and I think Ethan is smart to do a tactical retreat like yes okay we know we know Debbie is here we know now we need a plan I also think that he's not going to give anything to scars not give anything away I'm not going to give you what you want yeah exactly get emotional you're not dealing with that kind of person we then fade to Emilio sometime later talking to Ethan and Martin he just not that I am afraid don't apologize

1:40:00you got well paid magramia but he knows who you are and why do you're here this I did not know then Ethan offered some of the money they agreed upon but Emilio does not want to take it as you said Steve this is a man of honor I do not want blood money by a conduit and he rides off telling his crew that it's time to go as well and now we are left with Ethan and Marty at a makeshift camp in Monument Valley by a stream and to me it's a perfect contrast with Futterman because Futterman is the guy who does want blood money he realizes Ethan has money and he's willing to assassinate him in the middle of the night to get the money and this is as you said this is a truly honorable man he was trying to do the right thing he's happy to get paid for services rendered but he doesn't want any part of what he thinks is about to go down yeah because I think Emilio didn't understand once he was sitting in that tent and he saw these two dudes together he understood the rage and the anger and seeing Debbie and I think he put two and two together is like yeah man I

1:41:01don't need to get involved in this shit this is between y'all you know and so he pulls himself out of it very very gentleman you think old scar means to kill us it's got to we've been asking for it for five years and as they're talking here Steve in the distance we see this figure coming over the hill and it looks like Debbie and just to reinforce that the music cue here is a very hopeful music cue with strings that softly plays underneath again this whole situation of like testing the manhood of people like you did with uh whatever his name was in the other part there the the older man who threw his hat down and said he's here to fight nesby nesby yes with nesby yeah as he challenged nesby but he challenges Marty here and Martin then stands over Ethan and we can see that he isn't the boy anymore and he says kind of mockingly to Ethan big shoulders so again we're getting

1:42:03these moments Steve where we see Martin now slowly becoming his own man and pushing back on Ethan as is the natural course of life you know the sun becoming stronger than the father or wanting to become stronger than the father and so you see that or be seen as an equal and Marty is taking these moments to do that good movies managed to do one or two things well great movies do many things well simultaneously yeah if we had just been watching this confrontation between Ethan and Martin we would be totally in these intentions that have built up the whole time we want we seen how Ethan treats Martin we want Martin to stand up for himself beach as you said treat it like an equal yeah but the fact that Debbie is running down that hill in the background yeah makes the whole thing amazing yeah agree and us because it's so smart Steve because we as the audience are like turn around turn around exactly and we're like oh my god she's escaped like they're gonna take off with her and they're gonna get away but that is not what happens because Martin turns to see Debbie running

1:43:07and Martin meets her halfway across the dirt breaks not Ethan Martin Debbie when's Mia Debbie Debbie don't you remember I'm Martin I'm Martin your brother and Steve I wrote this down he is a man now his cleaning is not one of an emotional kid that we saw near the beginning of the movie this is a guy in his 20s who has seen some things now and he's speaking to her from a place of genuine care and solidies I remember from all ways first I prayed to you come and get me take me home you didn't come and as she is saying this Ethan walks up to the edge of that dirt bridge but Debbie is not moved Steve this is a great twist these are my people when she may or go go Martin please so she remembers his name it says go and just then we see Ethan pull

1:44:10out his gun from his holster and he tells Martin to stand aside stand aside Martin dude this is insane I do wish that Natalie would had somewhat more of an accent or something you know that she she's just so clearly perfectly speaking English and because she's so made up and looks so beautiful like that's the one thing that stands out but the reality is is like this is someone who is a young child yeah who had to figure out a life with a new people like she that was what she needed to do survive day after day year after year and the thing is if you are living with people it's so maybe she hates scar and maybe she doesn't well one of scars wives or like the other kid that you're playing with or the person that you go to get water from the well with or the old old grandma who teaches you how to cook something those are just your family at a certain point and what she's got to see she knows the violence that Ethan is capable of she knows what's happened to other Native American

1:45:16tribes like what happened to look is that she's going there is no solution to this in which people that I love don't get hurt yeah the only solution for people to protect the people I love is for you to go away yeah so that and again it's just what I said before if we just had that scene that would be amazing right but the fact that we have that scene with Ethan advancing on them and they eventually pulling out his gun is like holy crap what is going to happen now and we're not seeing a Debbie that we saw those women at the fort this is not a woman who is he's not broken yeah she's not crazy she's not broken but she has been taken as scars wife so in Ethan's warped mind I think he's already considered that she has been defiled in essence in his mind right by scar by sexual intercourse or what have you and so when Debbie says these are my people and essentially

1:46:20rejecting um quote unquote American or whiteness uh Ethan is done here and pulls out the gun and everything that martin was worried about has now come to reality in this moment I think it's amazing and we are like heartbroken because I do think the way they present Debbie obviously is on purpose they want to present her to radiate this kind of beauty there's almost virginal beauty and she's dressed in fantastic clothes and so and she has this earnestness and netleywood's performance that's really strong and you feel for her because she's been manipulated to think that these are her people in the situation that she's in well and I think this is if there has been a question in Ethan's mind for the last five years as they've been on this search the question is if we find Debbie will she be Comanche or will she be white and if she is white maybe I will save her and if she is Comanche I will kill her and she just said these are my people

1:47:24right and that you need to go right and and trying to save them in essence right yep well martin turns around and is shocked by what he sees even though he had been fearing this moment and he now stands in front of Debbie and he pulls his gun now stand aside and this is about to go down Steve but I got to say I am cheering for martin this is such an interesting moment when you're watching a movie starring john wade who is our protagonist that we are now on the side of martin in this moment I mean hopefully if you're right thinking person you're on the side of martin in this moment and not on the side of Ethan that's fast enough to me I'm splitting hairs with the way you said it is like to me I am I'm what's what's so surprising to me is not that I'm on the side of martin it's that I am opposed to john wade I want to know yeah it's that it's that oh john wade

1:48:24just became the bad guy that rate American western hero is about to kill to murder an innocent young girl yep like yeah we have to stand in front of him for something that was not his fault at all and I in a lot of ways I wonder if Ethan represents the younger generation mart representing the older generation of america and how its treatment of Native Americans or people in these kinds of situations has been an issue so I wonder if this is you know the movie showing us that martin representing the younger generation against the older generation in Ethan and how they did things and protecting Native Americans protecting underserved communities protecting people who have been subjected to the old establishment and the ills of that old establishment I wonder if there's a little bit of defiance here by john Ford historically speaking in what john wade represents through that character of Ethan you know I absolutely think that because I think that this is john john Ford is a subversive filmmaker yes in lots of ways he does not like authority as we've

1:49:30evidenced by stories we told us we've gone along is that he wants to poke holes and to push things it's not that he doesn't love america but he sees some of the flaws and what he just did was cast the greatest american western hero and say he is now the and a guy who's been great practical brave smart discipline hardworking he has all of these attributes that are great and and john Ford is saying and now that great person is the problem and I want to give credit to john wade for taking this role on and being willing to be this person because john Ford made john wade in stage coach and so in essence all these years later he is taking this creation and showing you the ugly side of it as well and his creation is willingly doing it with him you know I like in it to copula and pichino how copula hated that pichino was a hero Michael Corleone was a hero after godfather that's not what he wanted so he took michael lead through an even darker path in godfather to to make sure people

1:50:33understood who they were cheering for and pichino willingly went along with that to showcase that because you're so right now so many directors are rebels underneath and hate authority now ironically john ford was a hell of an authority on set you know better than the authority he was going up against but he was still rebellious at the authority for sure and before this competition go down Steve we see a native american at the top of the hill there he pulls his bow and shoots an arrow at Ethan whose gun goes off we're left to wonder did he shoot that was he shooting and then got hit by the arrow or did the arrow hit him and it caused him to shoot his gun I like that that's a mystery in this moment Steve because we don't know which way it would have gone this is what so great is that people think that we want to give you the moment that you that you think you want oh I want to see this confrontation and see it play out but giving you the moment actually releases tension because now you know okay this is yeah Ethan won martin lost or whatever it was this by interrupting the moment maintains and intensifies the tension because we don't know what was about to happen

1:51:39martin now turns as Debbie runs away and he shoots at the Indian on the hill which knocks him off his horse as he rides down and this leads to more now Indians they have americans riding over the hill yelling their war cries as they ride down towards them martin shoots a couple of them as he and an injured Ethan mount their horses and right away as martin is the Indian is right after them shooting and yelling Ethan is assisting martin as they ride the guy that he just confronted with a with a gun he is now assisting as they ride they manage to reach a cave in one of the mountains and shoot at the Indians from there martin is behind cover but of course Steve Ethan the American John Wayne doesn't need cover he just leans against the cave wall and is shooting at them one by one you know I love the difference in this moment in in the stardom of Jeffrey Hunt versus John Wayne you know what I'm saying he he's he's still got to be the badass that's right I mean that like

1:52:40wait it's actually so interesting because again it's the thing we talked about for years is that there's nothing in this movie that's saying that Ethan isn't just as good as he thinks he is and all of this stuff and there's nothing in this movie even though we just watched him about to kill you know a teenage girl yeah we can still thrill at the way he's leaning against this wall and still carrying on the fight I also just go this is what's so terrible and why I'm I'm on team Debbie who says you guys should just go away yeah just look at all this useless death and then each useless death becomes the cause for more revenge they take out a couple of the Native Americans who right away and we cut the scar now putting on his headdress and we see that he his when we and we see the scar his the scar in his face now is prominently displayed on the screen as he utters his war cry and tells his crew of Native Americans to write out with him now it's gone and they take off Ethan and Martin continue firing at the Native Americans and

1:53:43they even knock scar off his horse which is a huge surprise and he looks at them clearly shocked and also a little weakened we see Ethan and Martin shoot some more Native Americans off their horses but I think this is just an excuse to show some cool stunt writers falling off their horses by the way there's no stunt coordinator that's credited on the film so all of them don't get in got them unfortunately but it looks fantastic because we see them getting shot off their horses and being dragged behind them which of course becomes a trope later on with these movies and eventually they have fought off scars men successfully what do you think about this whole sequence here Steve and this end moment now that they've actually accomplished what they intended to accomplish is to fight off scars men here to give them a little bit of a breather so I think it's just a beautifully done sequence because what happens is the the thrillingness of the action sequence and these are all I mean this kind of stunt work on the horses I mean this is what John Ford did when he came in the

1:54:43silent era to make movies with his brother who was a bigger star as they did the horse stunts this is like you know it's going to the old bag of tricks but what's so interesting about it is that it came right after this moment where we don't know what Ethan was about to do or what he was going to do to stop him right and so I think it it it it maintains that tension and almost distracts you in a way because now we have another problem which is that Ethan is wounded and you know what's going to happen next so I think it's fantastic by the way in the book Debbie is much more incorporated into the Native American culture and she had just watched a massacre of most of her people by the cavalry at the time that Martin shows up and she's they they do not have the imperfect English conversation of I remember you Debbie is like the much more so these are my people and white people just killed a whole bunch of them yeah well let me ask you a question how did Debbie track them down to where they were through using Native American tactics or were they so

1:55:45obviously there that Debbie found them easy oh you mean when she goes down the hill yes like it and did the Native Americans let her track them so they followed her to surprise Martin and Ethan in in in the moment that they surprised them so that I'm wondering how all this went down or Debbie to find them where they where she found them because they're not in a you know like a common place they're just by a random stream in the middle of a valley you know I don't have a perfect memory of it but my memory in the book is there's nothing so dramatic as her running down a hill to find them I think it was much more that in the little village this I'm not 100% sure because I don't remember the details specifically but I think it was more Martin found Debbie when she was getting water and kind of managed to talk to her for a minute okay it's not the big confrontation this is you know what what you have to do when you adapt a novel into a movie is to take sometimes long drawn out and descriptive moments and compress and dramatize them and that's what John Ford has done so beautifully here well so but they go back to my question what do you think happened here did Debbie

1:56:50track them down yes sent by so the sent by Scar thing I don't think so I what what what I actually think it is is she obviously recognized them from the moment that they recognized her she watched where she went she looked for a moment when nobody was around so she could go run and tell them to make them go away to save their lives and Scar was watching her yeah yeah and sent his scouts ahead of time yeah that's what we got we got well now that we have a wounded Ethan and and Marty who was stilled up to Ethan and was about to shoot him to save Debbie and a Debbie who has come run back to be with her Comanche people and a scar who's who's added quite a few people knocked out and wounded here it's a good time I think to stop part three of our conversation on the searchers here before we get into what happens here in the in the last part of the movie hell of a discussion with

1:57:52you stay been enjoying this so far and I cannot believe we're going into a fourth part of this movie but pretty incredible I knew it was going to be four parts I was I was fairly certain that that was how was going I mean we never know for sure we never know quite where we're going to break it has been a fantastic conversation of course we'd love you to join the conversation on social media you can visit us on our Facebook page just do a search for the cine files it's cine underscore files on X the cine files podcast on Instagram if you haven't subscribed to the show there's a million ways to do it whether you're a YouTube person or a Spotify person or an Apple person or have your own particular podcast app like I do I use overcast it's a great app please subscribe to the show if you want to leave a comment or a review we always appreciate them and if you want to support the show you could do it at patreon.com slash the cine files as well as Apple podcasts where you can get ad free versions of the show listen to our cine file shorts we just will release one on lanterns you get our one takes a week in advance and of course on patreon you can join our advisory board and I'm it s. R. Morris on Twitter John how would people reach you you can always find me

1:58:55at the roca says on also social media and you can subscribe to my youtube channel youtube.com slash john roca says see all the shows I do there and of course our youtube channel where we endeavor to go live once a month talking about some big topic we want to talk about live on that channel of course all our shows also live on that youtube channel as well and speaking of which that live show I believe after episode four of the searchers will be the cine files 500th episode and so we we definitely will be doing some celebrating and we're looking forward to having conversation there you please check our social media for the exact specifics of the time of the live show and I think that's it for this week we will be back to I believe and the search next week on the cine files