497 THE SEARCHERS (1956) Part 2

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4:17John Ford's The Searchers. My name is Steve Borst. I'm a filmmaker and directing instructor in Los Angeles, California. Hello everyone. My name is John Rokum, a writer, producer, host, and voice over artist down here in San Diego, California. And Steve, real excited to be diving back into the second part of this incredible film and seeing how far we get on our journey because in essence, you and I are basically writing out trying to find Debbie ourselves, which is trying to finish up talking about this movie. So who knows how long this journey is going to take as we come into our second part. But it's been very enjoyable to do this with you, man. And we've gotten some really nice feedback from people as well. So thanks to everybody who's enjoying our journey into the searchers. And of course, we couldn't go on this epic quest without the support of all the amazing people at patreon.com slash the CineFiles as well as on Apple Podcasts. We literally wouldn't have money for horses, saddles, grain, and of course, our six shooters without you. Yeah, absolutely. And if you listen to us and you don't do the ad free tier and you listen to the ads and you hear

5:21about a product or a service that you want to try, we'd really appreciate you using our code because you might get some discounts off of the product or the service and you indicate to those companies to come back and keep supporting us here on the CineFiles. And right now, we have quite a few ads running for Thompson cigars, true diagnostic who's been with us for quite some time. So shout out to Drew Diagnostic, Quince 11 reader and Omaha steaks and better help. So quite a lot of clients and companies supporting us right now, Steve. So please make sure you all patronize them if you hear about a product or service that you enjoy. So John, we just left one of the most tragic and upsetting scenes in any Western I can think of, where are we heading next? Well, we begin with three crosses on a hill to mark the graves of Aaron, Martha, and Ben as we come out of this black frame. I can't help but point out Steve though, the imagery of three crosses on a hill. I think that's on purpose. I think there is a kind of a subtle Christian bent bubbling under

6:24the surface throughout this entire movie. And I think these three shot these three crosses here. I don't think that's an accident that John Ford put them in the frame and the way that he does. Yeah, I think this is that kind of movie where this you can find symbols a lot of places. And I think that that image is really striking. Yeah, Mel Calbury. Well, Reverend Clayton is reading scripture to honor the dead as the other settlers saying, shall we gather at the river in honor of the dead there? The songs lyrics for those you don't know referred to the Christian concept of the anticipation of restoration and reward and reference the motifs found in revelations 221 through 2, a crystal clear river with water of life issuing from the throne of heaven all presented by an angel of God. So you can tell that these settlers, the ones who've left and haven't quit as Aaron told us before he passed on have a lot of love for Martha and Aaron and for Ben and for what this life is like out here in the prairie and settling this land,

7:27settling the west and what they endure and what they go through to sing songs like this to say like you're you're going to a better place and all of that. So it's very touching in my own way. That's a great point. I hadn't really thought of it, but the sense of community that we feel with the view visits we have of these ranchers is really profound. Like you really get these are people in the middle of nowhere who only have each other to depend upon and strangely enough, I think that that mirrors what's John Ford's stock company is experiencing monument valley, you know. Yeah, yeah, good boy Steve for sure. Well, you know, those are all nice people, but Ethan has had enough and tells Clayton and Martin sneaks a look at a young woman. This is our first shot of a lord who is Laurie Jorgensen who is going to have a big more a much more prominent part to play

8:29as the movie goes along. So Steve, Ethan is pissed. He just wants to go. He's got no time for this Christian pleasantries man. Ethan is a practical person that he does not, you know, buy into all the rituals of society and and what's interesting what's what makes him such a great character is as you said before, he's basically almost always right. And yes, and the fact is time is a wasting every single second they spend on this funeral is another foot yard or mile that the command she get away and that makes it less likely to find Debbie and Lucy. Yeah, and it's another way that he rejects the traditions and the rituals of the society that exists. He is a rebel. He's an outlaw from the beginning. He is not one for any of this stuff. Remember, he wasn't there at the surrendering ceremony because he doesn't believe in surrenders. He doesn't believe in any of these rituals. It's just not his way. As you said, very practical. What's the next thing we need to do, you know. And

9:30we cut to Ethan now preparing a horse ready to go after Debbie. Mrs. Jorgenson now comes up, Brad's mom and walks up to talk to Ethan. And this is Olive Carey, the real-life mom of Harry Carey Jr., who is the actor playing Brad in the movie. She started as a silent film star in 1913. Acted in over 50 movies, including several John Ford films like The Gunfighted The Okay Carousle, and then went on to a career in television. So this is a storied Hollywood family and an actress that went, you know, literally from the very birth of the silent era all the way to starring in TV shows. Pretty amazing. Those girls mean as much to me as though they were my own. Maybe you don't know that my Brad's been sitting up with Lucy and my lorry. I'd be obliged if you'd come to the point, man. It's just that I know that Martha'd want you to take care of her boys as well as her girls. And if the girls are dead, don't let the boys waste their lives in vengeance.

10:30Promise me, Ethan. So, Steve, just here's Mrs. Jorgenson trying to keep Ethan from indulging in the darker elements of him. And he's just not listening to her. He's looking right past her to do what he needs to do. I think this is a critical moment in the movie and it's kind of done as a throwaway almost because we're so involved in Ethan and Ethan is so barely even paying attention to her. He doesn't respond to her and he just rides off. But it's funny. So watch this a few times since we've been working on it. And the first time this scene kind of went by me, it's like I went, oh, okay, yeah, I hear what she's saying. But it hit me much harder the second time watching it because I realized I had two completely contradictory and very strong emotions as I thought about this idea. Because what she's saying is don't waste your life in revenge. If there's no point, there are these boys that need that they're here and now and need our help today. And it is

11:36an argument for peace and it is an argument for ending the cycle of vengeance in the film. And the two reactions I had was I just suddenly went, okay, what if my son had been taken? And there was a really, really good chance that he was dead. What would I do? And part of me, just emotionally, from my gut said, well, I hope that I would be like Ethan and I would go to the ends of the earth, expend any bit of energy I possibly could to find and save my kid. And then simultaneously, I had this other thought which was basically emotionally just as strong as the first, which was if there was almost no chance that he was alive, then I hope that I wouldn't chase after him and to vote all of my attention and love to helping the people around me and ending the cycle of violence because I believe that too. I believe people have to stop violence at a certain point. And I had these two super strong emotions sitting in me that I couldn't reconcile.

12:40And that's why I just think this is a critical, even though it's done really quick and I think thematically, this is a critical line in the film. I agree. I think with every film, there are moments, scenes where other characters tell the protagonist to not go forward in this plan. There are moments to turn around. And that's usually what adds to the tragedy of a tale in a film like this because this is essentially a vengeance film now. The second Debbie gets taken, this becomes a revenge film, the whole rest of the film. And for Ethan, for Ethan, that's what I mean, yeah, not for Mark. No, no, Martin, because he's our, Ethan's our protagonists. And so like, to me, that's a, it becomes a revenge film for him and we're following him and what he's going through. Martin, I think grows as the film goes along and becomes the much more level headed of the two, which I think is a great reference to the book of what happened. It's, Martin's a little more on top of things in the book from the beginning, but as the film goes along, it's just kind of honor where Martin ends up

13:43to mirror what happens with Martin in the book. But like, this is where it becomes a revenge film. So, when he's so caught up, he doesn't want to hear anybody. And I think you're right, this is a scene that feels like a throwaway, but it's so much, has so much more weight to it because she says, if the girls are dead, don't let the boys waste their lives and vengeance. She's saying the boys. She knows it's too late to say Ethan. Ethan is going to do what Ethan does, but it's the boys. It's Brad Martin. Please don't let them walk down the same path that you have walked because I don't want them to suffer as you have suffered. So it's coming from a place of care for the boys and for Ethan, but Ethan can't hear anything right now because he's so caught up in his racism and his vengeance and wanting to get Debbie back that he looks past this, you know, this elder of the tribe in essence, trying to speak some logic and advice to him. Ethan, if I was fans, this is John. Well, Summer is here and it's time to take those special moments to kind of sit back and relax a little bit and enjoy the season. I'm talking about Barbecue's pool days, road trips, heading out to the beach, heading out to the lake, going to the golf course, family gathering nights, or even

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15:56discount will automatically apply some exclusions apply. Well, Martin shakes the hand of a young woman who he had shared a glance with at the funeral. And as I said, that is Lori. He gets on his horse. And this is the first hints, as I've said, of the wild obsession that will possess Ethan as he tries to save Debbie. We fade in on the posse as they write out on a new quest to find the girls. Once again, Steve, the shots here are utterly gorgeous. And now we see that Charlie McCory is riding along with them and he will become a more prominent figure as the film goes along. He's played by Ken Curtis. Ken Curtis. He adds such a special different quality to this film. He's born in 1916. He served in World War II. He was actually a singer. He started doing musical westerns and was part of a known singing group started acting. His first Ford movie is Rio Grande. He was in the horse soldiers. He's in the alamo. He's in how the west was won and Mr. Roberts. But here's what's funny. Here's the funny story about him is that so this he does this very

16:59strict peculiar accent in this movie. And here is how it came about. He was hanging out with Harry Kerry Jr. sitting around the campfire or something having drinks as you do on a John Ford western. And this was just an accent he knows and he describes it as like a Colorado mountain accent or something like that. And he was doing it as a joke just saying jockey lines with Harry Kerry Jr. And John Ford walks out and hears it listens to a minute and says I want you to do that in the movie. And he goes he says to John Ford no I can't I can't do that in the movie that I was a joke I was I could say these lines but I can't say all the lines of my character in this and Ford goes you're doing that in the movie movie and walks away and Charlie doesn't want to do it. He's an up and coming young actor. He wants to be a movie star. He thinks this is a terrible idea and he is bitching and moaning about it behind John Ford's back which is basically a thing that you probably shouldn't do. And apparently at some point John Wayne heard about it. He heard him

18:02bitching about it and walks up to him and basically says look you're a good looking kid but that Jeff Hunter kid is way better looking than you. If you're on screen with him ain't nobody going to pay attention to you at all. You do what Papa says and you do it right smartly or something. And of course this accent made him a star. I mean like this is what got him noticed it was absolutely the right choice and he he ends up going the biggest thing people know him for is that he played the second deputy on gun smoke which is the longest running western of all time. He played Festus for 11 years 304 episodes of gun smoke. Wow. Wow. And it's all because of this accent I think because he did that accent as that character. You never know where things are going to lead you as an actor and if you just listen to the waves as they take you in certain places you might end up giving a whole career out of it. So yeah and listening to John Wayne for sure.

19:03Anyway it calls out for Captain Clayton and they all write in to see Brad in front of a rock on the ground. And he and Charlie removed the rock to see a dead Indian buried underneath it. And now we get this interesting exchange Steve about what this symbolizes. This has come a long way before he died Captain. Well he's another one you can score up for your brother. So that's interesting another one you can score up for your brother. So is he saying like here's another death you can put in the ledger as vengeance to make up for the death of your brother because they didn't kill him. He just died on his own it seems like. Yeah. If you've decided that you're happy for every Native American you see dead. Yeah. Which I think Ethan mostly is in this film it makes sense. By the way when they pull that rock off this guy he clearly takes a deep breath. Yeah. And it's really and I can I'm looking at the setup that looks so uncomfortable. He's in the dirt he's got a rat thing over his face. He's got a rock on top of his face. It looks like so I

20:06understand why he took a deep breath but I bet Ford was mad. I mean like you really see it. I mean it's not it's not a small breath when they first lift that rock. It's a dangerous place. So I mean this is just being that I mean war bond was bit by a scorpion why was on this set and so like the it's a dangerous set. So who knows how long he was lying there before they take that rock off. By the way that actor plays three different characters in the movie if you catch him. He's in the bar and then he's one of the posse writers but here he is a Native American there who's under the rock. But then this character we haven't heard anything from until this moment Steve Chimes in this is Nesby who Chimes in and he says I don't like it and this is William Steele as Nesby and this was one of his last films before he passed on. I don't like it. What don't you like and Nesby tells us something because we as the audience are learning about this because I don't think many audience members would be on a mission like this or know how to track down Native Americans

21:06but Nesby says engines on a raid generally hides their dead and if you don't care anything about it only spells one thing the Native spirit of us following all of us catching up with him either. An Ethan responds as if he's been his authority's been questioned. You're getting back out anytime you want Nesby. Ethan I didn't say that. Didn't say such. Easy Nesby easy. This is interesting Steve you know. This is essentially a questioning of manhood is what in my opinion is what Ethan is doing here to Nesby. You want to bitch so much you can take off anytime you want and Nesby's offended because he's like no I'm trying to tell you what's going on here but Ethan doesn't want to hear anybody who's trying to tell him that they're on the wrong path. Well this is my question for you. Is first of all is Nesby correct about what this means? Does Ethan know that Nesby is correct about what this means? I agree too. So he doesn't even address the thing. I mean right. You know there's

22:11expression to hammer everything looks like a nail. I mean Ethan only has one method of negotiation. It is full power forward and then I will either let the thing I don't want happen to happen as he does with Clayton several times or I'm just going to do the thing that I think needs happening on my own regardless of what anybody else thinks. He has no skills at negotiation. He doesn't have any compromise in him. He doesn't know how to control. He doesn't know how to do any of those things. So with Nesby shows any bit of resistance even though Ethan knows he's 100% right. Ethan gives him the beat down and you know it's like either so go. I don't care. Yeah that's all that's all he's got. And Nesby's pissed because Nesby's got been right now and I've been sacrificing too. And so you know it's a whole thing there. Yeah I think and I think Ethan also doesn't like that he might make other people doubt who are in the posse about what Ethan is doing and make them scared and not be able to step up when the moment comes. So maybe there's a two-fold thing going on with Ethan as

23:12well. And then Brad loses it picks up a rock and angrily through tears throws it down on the body of the dead man. We don't see where he threw the rock Steve but the implication is him throwing it on the head of the Native American there under the rock and not to be outdone and almost as if encouraged by this. Why don't you finish the job? Holes out his gun and shoots out the eyes of the already dead Comanche. Yet another indication Steve of Ethan's hatred of Native Americans. I mean defiling the dead yeah. I mean this is you know one of the ways in which Native Americans were portrayed and I hate this word it's used here in the film and it is used throughout our history and people still use this word today which is portray them as savages. Yeah and one of the the things is the

24:12tradition of scalping. It is defiling the dead and that is why you know this is like oh these are barbarians they don't understand civilization. Now I have real problems with that entire argument but the point here is that's exactly what Ethan is doing. Ethan is defiling the dead right in this moment. He will be as savage as he believes these savages are and the reason he gives for why he does what he does is chilling. I love that you bring this up because the greatest lie that any civilization ever told is they're not savages the other people are savages because I don't think there's anything more savage than owning slaves or you know subjugating people or stepping on people's rights or destroy like savagery is a is a subjective term and so you may see someone who is savage because you think they're not intelligent enough or they rely on more brutal tactics to achieve things but look at any civilized empire in the world and they are savages with how they enacted their power on the world and on countries and on peoples and on civilization. So you know

25:18it's all a matter of perspective and subjective opinion on a situation that is convenient to whatever narrative the people in power want to tell. May I give you my brief history of America from this how I see this perspective. So here is a very short summary of American history. A dude shows up lost thinking he's in Asia when he's not meets a bunch of people whose language culture and history he doesn't understand decides immediately that their savages and starts raping the women and slaving the people. Then they say hey listen people that we call savages we have this great thing called Christianity it's all about love and peace and a God that cares for us and then we're going to force you to have this religion and beat you and make us build our missions. Then they say we have this really cool thing called the rule of law it's great you'll love it you make an agreement everyone abides by the agreement we'd like to make some agreements with you about your land and we make some agreements and then and they immediately and repeatedly break those agreements

26:22over and over again and you know why they feel they can do all of these horrible things because the other people are savages. You're right exactly. Yes and I'm like who's the fucking savage. That's how I feel about all that. Who is the fucking savage exactly. And that make and that comes into play later on in the movie I think for sure when you look at how Ethan becomes obsessed with getting Debbie and what he does to get her throughout the whole movie is he the savage as well. And then he looks at Martin and says come on blanket head. Now for those who may not know this blanket head is a racist and derogatory term that references the historical stereotype or practice of indigenous people wearing woolen blankets wrapped around their shoulders or heads. It depicts in this moment the racial contempt held by Ethan towards indigenous people or even those of mixed

27:25descent as Martin is. So not only is he saying he proudly defiled the dead and ruined this man's spirit through the Comanche, not a Comanche rituals of not being able to enter the spare world. He also insults the quote unquote half breed that's writing with him in Martin to end that section. It's chilling and this to me this this is like central to what makes this a great film is that on the one hand Ethan is a fucking badass. He is an Americans love the I don't play by the rules tough cop. The I'm willing to do what has to be done to get revenge. The revengeer we love we love the outlaw the outsider. And so for all of those reasons Ethan is a perfect hero that we're drawn to and then we're in this scene and he shoots the guy's eyes out right before racially insulting Martin who I think we all like. And it is so and just this idea as an atheist it's hard

28:31for me to even figure out what I think about like the idea of ruining the afterlife of your enemy. Like and it's you know because there's two possible things one is Ethan thinks there is no afterlife. You know he's an atheist like me or he's a Christian and just doesn't believe in any of this Native American spiritualism in which case it really and I think Ethan sees bodies as bodies. You know what I mean like he they're just things he's seen enough of them that he doesn't revere the human body. So on one hand it could be that this is really doing nothing other than sending a message to any Native Americans who find him. On the other hand if Ethan is entertaining the idea that there is some sort of afterlife for Native Americans he is blinded this guy for eternity he doesn't know who this is he's never met this he doesn't even really know for sure that this guy had anything to do with the death of the people that Ethan loves. Yeah and where should go through the movie I think this is something that some people aren't being comfortable on me saying this but this is something that I was reading a lot of

29:34breakdowns analysis of the film from scholars and intellectuals and film scholars and they discuss the film in this way it's like a microcosm of our society at times. Ethan is supremely racist against Native Americans has his issues with it but the entire society does not have an issue with Ethan's hatred of Native Americans only Martin is the one that calls him out on it. Martin is the one later on in the film who says I'm scared of what Ethan's going to do I got to get back and go with him because I'm sorry I leave you Laurie but I got to see I got to stop him from doing something to Debbie possibly but none of the other townsfolk tell him that his racism is wrong or that his racism is bad like even later we're going to get to that scene when Clayton knocks the rifle down it's more a matter from a place of like respect for your enemy in a battle than it is respect for Native Americans and so this is the thing that's really uncomfortable to talk about is that's we seem to be okay at times with our protagonists being racist as long as there's

30:38some kind of like come up in or some kind of redemption for them and so in this film the townsfolk are all a little bit racist because they allow Ethan and don't call out Ethan for his racism and I think there's a sense of complicity in that some people have made that argument and I think it's a valid argument to make and I'm not in any way like saying people are terrible for this but it's an honest truth about it that not everyone is willing to walk into the fray and try to stop someone or call someone out on their racism because of the reactions that they might get and no one in the no one in the town other than Martin calls him out for would you like to hear the way I approach these weird complicated issues of prejudice and stuff I have this is the image I have in my brain which is sort of the mountain range I think of it as a mountain range which is whatever area you grew up in there is a the temperature of the water there is how the world saw that thing at that time and it is not whether or not the way people behaved in the 50s or the 1800s or whatever

31:43should be judged on our terms today what you get to me it is the thing is like are you a peak in the mountain range or are you a valley is that it's the variation from the norm that I am looking at Ethan is not only racist for our time he's racist for that time he is his his opinions are more extreme than the other people we meet in the film you know and they're going to be other people for instance uh Mrs. Jorgensen who goes no no let's not waste our time on revenge she's a little lower you know and so that's why like when I look at it's I don't look at like so John Ford in this moment he is making films about Native Americans and treating Native Americans largely the same as the way all of Hollywood treated them but the character of Ethan presenting this racist character and he is very clearly racist and that is the intent that's what makes this movie actually surpass what's going on at that particular time that's why that this sort of image is like

32:47well what's the general level that everybody is at then yeah and then how do people vary from the level that's how you decide who is most racist at that time and who is fighting against it at that time you know yeah yeah yeah well another guy that we swing back from that tangent Clayton and Chris put the rock back over the body and they leave we cut to later uh and Ethan is writing back after having done some recon to tell them what is going on Ethan says the commandries are camp by the river just a few miles away and that they can jump them before daylight you right sure you want to jump them Ethan so we came for it I thought we're trying to get them girls alive jump them come in and kill them you know that and I wrote here here's another example of the battle between these two alpha leaders and the difference between someone who's invested personally in the situation and someone who is not as invested person in the situation Clayton is looking at it with a much more objective point of view this is we need to be we need to be careful about how we attack these commandries

33:49community want the girls alive and Ethan in a way is almost going like I don't almost I don't even I don't even know if I care that Debbie is alive because as long as I wipe out some Native American so it's an interesting way to look at the way they're approaching it and I think again this is another scene that gives you a window into Ethan and Clayton and how they're trying to get uh save Debbie I I think it I agree and I think it's a key moment because it makes you go like particularly as you watch the movie multiple times it's like wait does Ethan even believe Debbie's alive does he care is any of this about Debbie because he says isn't that what we're here for now Ethan is the practical guy as we said he is the person over and over again who goes if I do this then this will happen so when Clayton says you know they'll kill the girls if we do that Ethan does 100% know that which means if he if he knows that then he doesn't care about Debbie and Lucy or if he does care about them it is so much smaller than his hunger for revenge that it doesn't even register

34:53it's it's almost like he has a gear that says well if they die it's better than them becoming squas or whatever for whatever the term may be for this Native Americans in the stride you know in his month and Brad who's like a lost puppy in all of this team for the next few minutes in this movie asks the Reverend what they're going to do and then he asks Ethan and Clayton chimes in well what I have in mind was maybe run an Oscar pony herd a command shot in foot more have to be willing to listen yeah I think the Reverend's right don't you and Ethan is disgusted what is a quarter breed Cherokee know about the old command striker sleeping with his best pony tied right by his side you got about as much chance a stampede and that herd is you have a finding them girls alive by riding into them I say we do it my way Ethan and that's an order an Ethan response by throwing his canteen and Clay at Clayton saying yes sir but if you're wrong

35:56don't ever give me another so the battle lines have been drawn Steve and poor Martin Brad are caught up in the mix to these two these two lions like roaring at each other these two rams budding heads over how to rescue Debbie and Lucy when John Wayne is cool he's so cool the don't ever give me another moment when he throws the canteen at him I mean it's just so like it's just such a like bad at and this is why John Wayne is on in some level I mean we could say Gary Cooper we could say a few other people he's like yeah among the ultimate American male actors like this is this is what we said being an American man was at a certain point in time what bugs me about this scene by the way is to me they have both brought up excellent points Ethan's plan would get the girls killed and Clayton's plan won't work because they they're too close to their horses this is a time where two people in a collaborative not competitive world would say oh let's see if we can come up with

36:56a third alternative that doesn't get the girls killed but still gonna work but they don't do that because it's my way in a highway with these guys right right but I also think this is really symbolic of you know two americas as you said Ethan John Wayne represents is through Ethan represents a certain kind of America which is whatever these get done I don't care who's the collateral damage we need to achieve the things we need to achieve and Clayton is much more circumspect and it's like well no we've got to do it this way this is safer this will this will lead to a majority of the people living through this situation and yeah we don't get to exact revenge on these people but we get the goal met in the best way possible with the less bloodshed as possible and there with the least bloodshed as possible and so that's the warring kind of battle going on here the two different versions of America one more civilized one less civilized in how they approach the situation we cut the dawn as Ethan and Clayton and the crew slowly walk through a swampy area and come up on a campfire

38:01campfire still smoldering see this is such a weird shot I wonder about like this with you because this looks like it's on a set like this it's not like they're out anywhere it's it's amazing about this film though right because we saw that scene early with Martin running up on the on the burnt house of Aaron and Martha's and that clearly looks like he's running with the backdrop from a set this film is so good Steve that you forgive the set moments mixed in with the actual on location moments because you're so caught up in how they're creating things and this is a scene that you could absolutely ridicule for how much it looks obvious that it's a set but it still works you know because of how they've constructed the movie I'll tell you I'll tell you the thing why this one bothers me more all the other one I think work perfectly I think because because part of it is that they're beautifully lit sets that really did not easy to match the lighting feel of monument valley on a movie set but obviously they do a great job I think this looks really nice that think

39:03that bugs me about the scene is they're so not stealthy they're splashing around that water they're talking in normal voices yeah like you're starting to sneak up on somebody you're not doing a very good job which actually happens a couple of times in the movie where it's like keep your voice down what are you doing yeah yeah especially Martin well it was here sure I was here another out there waiting to jump us any more orders captain this is clearly Ethan beginning this pushback and undercutting of Clayton and even scoffing at him by almost like he's saying quote captain honestly I think Ethan is being almost nicer to Clayton than he deserves I mean the last thing he said to him was I'll follow this order but don't give me and if you're wrong don't give me another he is not he he's still kind of letting Clayton be in the lead more than I would think that he would but yeah this is a major I mean yeah because what we have realized what we are

40:03feeling and what we are about to see is that they have walked into a trap yep suddenly the tension is broken by a sound like a bird whistle which startles everybody Ethan turns to Clayton well you want to quit Ethan that'll be that day by the way Ethan will say this line quite a few times during the movie and it has been reported that a young buddy Holly saw this movie and love that line so much that he wrote the song that'll be the day and it became one of his big hits and he wasn't the only musical artist influenced by this movie apparently the group the searchers saw this movie and took on the title from this movie and became a pop sensation there in the 50s so Steve interesting stuff do you buy this story that he buddy Holly young buddy Holly in Texas I've always thought that was confirmed that was all I've seen I've seen that like in documentaries and things like that I've seen that many many many times I think it's I think there's a direct

41:06connection from Ethan in the searchers to Dirty Harry to a whole bunch of bad ass American toughest nails sort of character and that'll be the day is a great catchphrase that'll be the day most brings up the horses and we cut to them riding through a pass when a commanche comes up above them on the ridge it is scar and he raises his arm in a sickle emotion to call up the rest of the commanche they ride alongside Ethan now and his crew from a distance and we're getting that sense of tension Steve who these sequences and then we see more commanche come up on the other side of Ethan and his crew and these shots are so similar to what we will see years later in my opinion in Lawrence of Arabia so earlier when I said David lean um watch this movie over and over again to learn how to do some of these shots I think this shot is very similar to what we see in the desert sometimes when they're in these wars and these battles and when they're going on these

42:10journeys in Lawrence of Arabia well Reverend looks like you got yourself surrounded yeah and I figure out and get myself on surrounded both how far is the river I've been that time Trevor I've been that time I feel so how do you react to mo because it's obvious this is the comic relief this is the crazy person this is the how do you feel this is operating in this moment it's so funny I was going to ask you that later on in the movie uh when Martin and Mose are shooting behind the tree but yeah this is a great I mean I think Mose works well for the most part in the movie and I think there are a couple of moments where it feels a little tone deaf and undercuts the seriousness and the stakes but I think overall I he's an essential part of the movie or else this movie would be so much more darker than uh then we get in in this film so I think he's

43:13essential to break the tension to kind of get you to smile a little bit because they're giving you so much that is dangerous throughout the whole movie the audience could be on the edge of their seats or bite their nails but there's enough comic relief to mose that it lets you kind of relax just a little bit so you're not so crazy about what's going on you know he's he's right he's right on the edge for me yeah like there like he's right like I get it I like him as a character and it's just it is such a caricature on on some level of like and here is the crazy person or the we don't quite know what's going on or the fool or however we want to put it I do like it but it's like like like I said it's right up there at that edge for me yeah yeah I served with a guy like this not quite like this but in my first trip through basic training I'm not gonna say his name but he was from Jersey and this guy took nothing seriously made jokes about everything and I'll tell you it drove

44:14us all insane by the end of the basic training we were just ready to be away from this guy because he just always found moments to kind of say little things little comments and stuff it drives you not so bad I so I hear you about it being close to the edge let's go and they all take off right past the camera as the command you ride in pursuit with their war cries they ride out into the river and try to cross it as they shoot back and hit some of the command she claims horse throws him off as Nesmi gets shot from behind and falls on his horse they get across the river and bring Nesmi to a log as they set up to shoot at the command she from across the river by the way all the Indians here are Native Americans they were not command she so there were a mix of different Native Americans but they were not command she's but they are no less and that adds to the authenticity and it makes it no less unsettling and chilling to see this all happening yeah I think there were mostly Navajo which is the the tribe that has the reservation at monument valley and he worked with the same

45:16community of Navajo Native Americans on many many films and had from what I hear and I would my guess is this is probably more complicated than what I'll say but a good relationship with them I mean partially because every time John Ford came to town they had jobs and they made a lot of they made good money and they you know but then also they were being forced to play dress up in outfits that are totally not eight a hundred percent not realistic for the Navajo but really aren't realistic for the command she there this is they get to dress up as Hollywood Indians you know yeah yeah well they bring scar his head dress and we see mose doing the stereotype woo woo thing which I just hate and so does my partner who is that American as their death song increases in volume and passion even if you figure those charges you ask in me thank you yep just song war chief he's got

46:18it a safe place yes sir he'll be right in your lap in a minute sunny and then mose takes his hat off and says that which we are about to receive we thank the old lord so again just take him a little bit of the edge of what's about to happen it's a it's a pretty tough stand that they have there's a lot of people that are about to come charging at them we see the command she's charged as he as Steve just said as Ethan predicted with scar leading the way it looks bad for our guys as they shoot from their covered positions and they do take out a few command she and mose looks at Martin who has taken one out it says you got it Marty but then Martin puts his head down on the log in my opinion Steve he looks overwhelmed at the emotion he is feeling at shooting someone and killing someone possibly for the first time and mose takes his rifle and keeps shooting which wakes Martin up from his pain and he grabs his pistol and starts shooting again it's a curious moment what do you think about this mose it's a yeah your description is exactly what I see the line that pops into my head

47:21silly but it's from big trouble little china when Kurt Russell kills someone with a machine gun and they turn to him and say first time you ever kill anyone and it obviously isn't he goes course not and of course who is Kurt Russell do it pretending to be in that movie is John Wayne that's what his performance is yeah I think I think that moment is I think it is a particular kind of acting that was very common in the 50s oh you know it's that I see a thing I have a huge emotional reaction and then I'm going to go back to shooting yeah because I mean you see Jeffrey Hunter in that Star Trek those that pilot and in the in the manager he is so good and then I think in this film at times it's very over the top is stuff yeah but again he's supposed to be a teenager so yeah I also think I also think the dudes with the pistols should hold off until they get a little bit closer because those probably aren't accurate all the way across that river that was sort of my feeling that's a great point meanwhile Clayton Ethan share a funny moment when

48:22Clayton runs out of ammo and Ethan throws him his gun saying watch it it's loaded by the way the gun goes off the gun going off was an accident but Ford liked it so much that they kept it in the movie and it sparks Clayton to whip his hat at Ethan's ribs though causing Ethan to look at him musically as Clayton starts to shoot again it's nice they can have a moment of levity steam while they're shooting at command cheese and they're being shot at themselves but by the way John Ford and his weird Zen master mysterious way at one point I think it's several points said all the best things in my pictures were accidents yeah well now the command cheese retreat back across the river Ethan aims his rifle though one last time and he's about to take one shot at them from behind as a kind of final goodbye or whatever when Clayton comes up from behind and knocks Ethan rifles down please leave him carry off their hurts and dead well come on that tears it now I knew stay out of this

49:23I love you but I want you with me I'll need you for what I gotta do and he walks away from Clayton and in defiance of him and to satisfy his bloodlust he shoots at the command cheese anyway which sparks Clayton to throw his hat at Ethan's feet in disgust Ethan registers it and then walks off leaving them behind so we we had this moment of levity just a few seconds ago we've been seeing them battle but I think this is the moment Steve where this relationship like just fractures completely because Clayton takes it upon himself to stop Ethan and there's no line you can cross harder than that with Ethan then stopping him doing what he wants to do it's interesting that a few minutes ago we had a conversation about savagery and civilization and what that means and part of what civilization means theoretically is that there are rules to things there are things you don't do just as you don't defile the dead you also give your enemy a chance to gather they're wounded and you don't shoot them in the back while they're doing it like that's and you

50:25know where where what's the first moment we have between Clayton and Ethan I didn't see you at the surrender right I didn't see you before the surrender is that there are rules of an army honorably fights and then when they are defeated the honor the honorable army will then surrender and then you obey the rules that going forward that's what a civilization does whereas Ethan is like they are my enemy why would I give them any quarter why would I give them any respect why would I follow any rules that would interfere with my ability to bring my enemy to where I can kill him which is what I want to do so and again this is this is that Clayton is the Reverend and the captain of the Texas Rangers he is part of civilization and he believes in rules on some level and Ethan in fact is the savage he doesn't yes any of those things right I kind of as you're talking I think of myself I feel bad for Aaron growing up with Ethan as a brother god knows what that house

51:25must have been like yeah Ethan always had to win Ethan always had to be on top and poor Aaron was probably like just kind of subjugated through a majority of his life but he got the girl but he got the girl we dissolved to a little bit later with them all together as Ethan is loading his rifle Clayton says to him well Edwards I guess you're right we got to get an SB back it's a job for a whole company arrangers or it's a job for one or two men right now or too many and not enough Ethan doesn't hear it any I'm going on alone any objections good luck there's only one way you can stop me from looking for Lucy mr and that's kill me that's the way I feel Uncle Ethan Ethan sir all right I'm giving the orders here I'm giving the orders and you'll follow them or worse button up right here and now well sure Ethan just one

52:29reason we're here ain't it that's to find Debbie and Lucy and Ethan steps to the side looks back at the command you for dramatic effect and says if they're still alive I think the moment that Clayton and Ethan had that discussion about whether or not to charge right in which would get Debbie and Lucy or to do it a different way I think Martin noticed that then I think right then he started to think or worry about the thing that we've been discussing which is yeah does Ethan think they're already dead or does Ethan even care about kill about finding Debbie and Lucy and so that's why Martin says that at this moment it's just like yeah but we're we're doing this for Debbie and Lucy right you know this is his one way to push back against something really scary that he's starting to suspect I agree Steve that's a great point you bring up and and I think there there is an arc for Ethan in the movie by the end for sure there is an arc but it's like a tiny arc with Martin we really see the arc as he is coming into his own because again as I said earlier this is supposed to be a teenage and

53:33the stuff he's experiencing he's being brought into this adult world to see the things that he's seeing and he's hanging out with this dude who's rough and judgmental and racist and not an easy guy to be around and he has been grown up for lack of a better term quicker than maybe the intention was and so he's picking things up picking clues up and these are the things that gonna motivate him to take the certain actions that he does throughout the whole movie as he becomes in essence kind of a caution for Ethan a caution sign for Ethan as best he can't and this is the moment a great point this is where it starts to you can sense it starting to build can I tell you a story that might be about this moment I'm not a hundred percent sure and but I also will tell say that I don't really believe that the story is true but I'm gonna tell it to you anyway there's a story that Harry Carey Jr. told where he said he had a scene to do where it was his most emotional scene and he was really scared of doing it so it might have been this scene and or could have been one of the ones where he chases off after them I'm not sure but I kind of

54:36was missing so he and he's and he the first take he blew and you don't want to blow a take in front of John Ford there's a lot of pressure on this set to get it right second take or the third take he absolutely nails it and expects Ford to go print and move on but then the DP comes up and whispers something to John Ford and we find out we have to go in again and the reason that it happened according to Harry Carey Jr. is mid take ward bond who wanted to use his electric razor unplugged a piece of equipment mid take and ruined the take now I don't believe that ward bond would plug in an electric razor which makes noise in the midst of one of John Ford shots I just don't believe is true but Harry Carey Jr. did tell that story and where is that it happened well there is but I also think this is a fascinating the I don't know if it's intentional but a commentary on you see young impressionable men following the more savage element of manhood

55:43in that moment Brad and Martin yes because Brad wants Lucy Martin wants to get Debbie back but they're not going with Clayton they're not following Clayton's path or listening to Clayton who's saying we need to pull away we need to get more people or less you know it's something like that they're going with Ethan because Ethan represents strength now where that leads them to you can make a case about whether that's positive or negative but they respond to that with Ethan and so and he lays it down as you said earlier it's my way the highway and there's no questions about I'm sure you've had the experience where there's been some powerful figure in your life some impressive person that maybe you were excited to meet or you know and you go and they genuinely are really impressive and then as you're around them longer and longer you go oh they're crazy or oh they're an asshole or oh they're a womanizer or oh they're dishonest that doesn't take away from the impressiveness that was there yeah but you start to see other stuff Ethan is impressive there's no question about it but there's stuff yeah we cut to them walking in the sun later and

56:48pulling their horses behind them you gotta stop sometime does human men at all they gotta stop the steep bread is not cut out for frontier living man he's a little too soft at least not this kind yeah right no human rides a horse until it dies and he goes on a foot command comes along gets that horse up rides him 20 more miles and eats him this is what humans do when they go to war which is that it is critical to dehumanize the adversary to say they are not like us they are different they are more brutal they are more savage as we said many times and sometimes it can even seem like a complimentary thing sometimes you know this idea that the the commandeer will will go even farther will is is almost stronger in some way because we can't we're having trouble keeping up with them is almost complimentary but that adds to the dehumanization and the need to kill them before they kill you because they are so different

57:51and so dangerous yeah that's a great point Steve 100% you always got to what's the great line you always make the enemy greater than they actually are so you're prepared for them Martin takes a swing from the candy and he says don't even know of Debbie and Lucy's in this punch maybe they split up they're with them all right up they're still alive and now this is the second time we've heard Ethan reference to the fact that they could be dead and this gets Brad's super angry he stops walking and he confronts Ethan almost almost in a powder way you said that enough maybe Lucy's dead maybe they're both dead but if I hear that from you again I'll fight you Mr. Edwards and then Ethan looks him up and down quickly and says I don't believe that day and then he melts his horse telling them to spread out so and interesting scene between these three Steve for sure I think Brad serves a really important purpose in this movie because Martin is too withdrawn he doesn't say as much of what he's thinking but Brad gets the voice this thing and put a real I think Brad's

58:58desperation to find Lucy adds tremendous fuel to Ethan's discovery of Lucy and what happens subsequently I think it's critical to that yeah I think if Brad hadn't lost his mind when he does in a fit of rage Ethan could have used that it manipulated that because I think Brad would have been uttered disciple to Ethan whereas Martin is much more of the question much more of the doubting Thomas to this to Ethan wanting to be essentially fetid or praised for them cut out right here and they wrote on up through the past there how come they do that Ethan I'll take a look keep up to the others you want us to fire shot just no no no build bonfires and our beat drums I'll meet you on the far side and Ethan rides off leaving them behind to go another way Steve he suspects doesn't that's I mean this right don't you think it's just what I was going to ask you I think the minute he says

1:00:00force split off to go into that canyon I think it's more than suspects I think he's pretty sure of what what he's about to see this is why you cast someone like John Wayne to play a role like this there are so many levels to what he's doing and what he's saying so much intention and just from this moment if you analyze the film because you know great films are so much fun to analyze as we've been doing for 10 years on the show you know that he is in this moment moving Brad and Martin away and it's from a place of care as messed up as Ethan is he does in his own way care that Martin Brad or not scarred by the things Ethan is scarred by he has a level of self-awareness he may be an amaniac obsessed with revenge but there is still a level of care that he can deliver at his in his abilities to keep these guys away from this stuff and I think in these moments you see it but it's because you sense Ethan has seen this stuff or experienced this

1:01:04stuff in his travels before he came home to Aaron and Martha we cut to later as Ethan rides out of the canyon to meet them on the far side Brad and Martin he stumbles off of his horse and throws down his rifle sits down hurriedly pulls out his knife and starts jabbing at the clay this is the first time we've seen Ethan Steve like unsettled and balanced he's in a bit of a days and he just starts stabbing at the clay and some analysts have said that this is Ethan simulating the rape of Lucy or enacting his vengeance on the command she who are not there and stabbing the clays his way of getting that anchor out of himself in this moment but it's a very curious moment in a in a rare moment of vulnerability for Ethan in this movie. One of your my thoughts that occurred to me not the first time but but but after watching this several times it suddenly went into my brain

1:02:10and I don't I'm not saying there's evidence of this and it's really dark what I'm about to say but it suddenly went into my brain what if he found Lucy and she was still alive? Hmm Ethan might have killed her with that knife yeah maybe cleaning it in the dirt right now possibly I mean there's no blood on the knife so but like his intention was to kill Debbie you know I mean like we know that and we we know that his belief is that a woman who has been raped by a comanche is is soiled is is no longer any good and there are other their culture still in this world that think horrible things like this and if she were alive I believe Ethan would have killed her now I don't I don't I don't hope but like I want to believe that that's not what happened that he just found her and buried her as he says but right it's a dark moment and I'll say I don't know that I don't have a full catalog of John Wayne performances in my head

1:03:11I don't know that he'd ever had a moment like this well I think this is why when you hear people talk about this film and when they worked with John that he stating character in between shots something he'd never done he stayed word bond said this Harry Carrad Jr said this that he's stating character in between shots and it's probably because like playing a character like this takes a lot out of you yeah and the darkness you speak of it may very well be possible that he found Lucy and she was like at Death's Door to go along with what you said and she may have like held his hand said these I don't want to go on or I don't take me out or kill me or something like that it's very possible and he did it as an act of mercy and he hates himself for it you know and so that if we go along with what you said that may be possible um Martin offers Ethan water which he drinks as I said almost in a days why'd they break off was there water in that canyon huh no water

1:04:12you alright Ethan hey what happened to Johnny Repp coach you lose it monster I'm not going back for it and he mounts his horse and takes off not going back for that coat is just like you I mean even if you don't know yet and you're watching the month for the first time you know any road in on that coat in the opening of the movie yep so to leave and Martha Martha petted the coat yes and gave it back to him that he's not leaving that coat for anything and remember he swore no to the confederacy and they're still all and so he wouldn't leave that coat exactly we fade to them later riding up a ridge and then fade again to later in the evening as Brad comes running up from location I found him I found Lucy they're camped about a half mile over I was just swinging back and I seen their smoke billied up a ridge and there they was right below me

1:05:16did you see Debbie no no but I saw Lucy all right she was wearing that blue dress and she was you saw wasn't Lucy well but it was I tell you what you saw was a buck where on Lucy's dress I found Lucy back in a canyon ruptured in my coat buried there with my own hands on it best to keep it from you well did they what was she and then Ethan explodes kind of like he exploded a cleat what do you want me to do a dry up picture smell it out don't ever ask me long as you live don't ever ask me more again we see another moment of vulnerability so quickly after the moment we saw a few seconds ago Steve Ethan is broken by this and I don't know what he's

1:06:18going through what are you sense from Ethan in this moment when he's being grubbed by Brad about this stuff I think I think it's actually fundamentally different from that outbursts with Clayton I think the one with Clayton is anger and I think he is he's had that probably with 50 different officers at the Confederacy during the war someone who is doing stupid something stupid gonna risk men's lives Ethan knew better he knew how to go out the the enemy in a better way and he was angry and he voiced it I think that's pretty common for Ethan to be frustrated in those circumstances I think this is not common I think this is I think and I'm sure you've had this I I don't know if you've had it in a traumatic way but like seeing a thing you can't unsee and you know that'll be with you forever there was I was a car accident when I was in college and I went to help

1:07:19people and there were injuries and I saw some stuff and even some sound there was a sound and I remember driving away from that going oh I'm never gonna not hear that sound and I honestly I can hear it right now as I'm discussing it like the Ethan's moment here don't ever ask me is there is now a tearing fiery burden of pain in his soul and he knows it will be there forever and as a masculine American man you don't talk about those things you fight them and you hold them down and you're strong and that's it so that's what Ethan's got to do I think it's a fascinating reaction and I think and again the moment of care that Ethan shows Brad by not telling him I thought you say as I thought it best to keep it from you maybe because he needed Brad to stay on this journey to go get Debbie or maybe because he really does care about Brad and didn't want to know about Lucy but at some point he was gonna have to tell him and but Brad stumbled upon the

1:08:23dress and seeing the dress from the ridge and all of that so now he's forced to tell him and he's forced to relive that moment as we saw him stumble off the horse and jabbing the clay he's now forced to relive it again and this is I think what causes the explosion and he's almost angry but I guess that's why I make the correlation because both of those moments are things that Ethan doesn't want to do like he doesn't want someone to stop him from shooting the gun and he doesn't want Brad to force him to talk about it and so these are both things that he doesn't he doesn't want to be stopped you know what I'm saying and so I think that's what's really powerful here to see him react in this way and I think it's important Steve because just what we're going to slide into this place that Ethan is a racist and a terrible person and maybe we should be rooting against him we have these two scenes that are human scenes humanistic scenes the fact that he's caring for Brad Martin to not see the what it might be in this valley and then later in this moment here telling Brad I wanted to keep it from you because I I assume he knew what it would do to Brad to know the truth about

1:09:27and he still won't tell him even in this moment what Brad asks about well except I think he does tell him I mean in the sense that because because when Brad to be clear when Brad is saying did they was she right the end of those sentences is did they rape her yes she raped that's what Brad is saying and he says what do you want me to do paint you a picture right that's saying yes she was raped I mean there's no that's what he said that's what Brad is taking in yes yes I agree but the he's not going into the specifics exactly exactly to the trauma of it all for for Brad I think but it's a it's a it's an interesting back and forth between them Brad takes it all in though and in a fit of emotion grabs his pistol and rides off to confront the Canadian Martin tries to stop him but Ethan trips in to hold him back and we hear a series of gunshots in the distance back and forth and one final gunshot with a loud music key indicating that Brad is dead it's brutal stuff it is absolutely

1:10:37I'm I'm wondering why the command she didn't they're obviously very close yeah why they didn't head back in the direction Brad came from to look but they didn't well I keep because Nesby said that earlier like they don't care if you catch up to them yeah they don't care right at the point they're playing with you they're towing with you you're not a threat to them you know we cut to the next morning as Ethan and Martin ride through monument valley with Brad's horse with them then through the snow and finally into a snowfall well why don't you say it beat and you know it no our turning back don't mean nothing I'm not long run she's alive she's safe for a while will keep her there raises one of their all mental until she's at a age to that I have written here to what's to you well we could say to Mary yeah that's you know if we

1:11:38want to be nice yeah right well no but actually it is Mary I mean it to I mean obviously these are all different circumstances but if you look at you know you told the story of Cynthia Parker right well when she grew up she married the chief and right one of the war chiefs and had three kids and was happy you know like I mean kid I'm not defending kidnapping of children or anything like that but if you're five or six or seven or eight and now you're in a new circumstance you're going to adapt to that circumstance and learn the language and do what's necessary and the fact is is that and this is the big thing scar might be a bad guy but he's a bad guy in the way that Ethan is a bad guy and all the other people around scar is wives and his kids and other women and other families and they're just people living their lives yeah and that's what Debbie is growing up in right yeah good boy engine will chase that thing till he thinks he's chased it enough and he quits the same way when he

1:12:39runs seems like he never learns there's such a thing as a critter or just keep coming on so we'll find him anian and I promise you we'll find him to sure as a turn under the earth and with that Ethan turns his horse around and leaves off camera what do you think on these words here from Ethan's the turning of the earth is very poetic for anything it's also this is line for line out of the book that's what that's what Aaron says in the book yeah oh wow wow wow okay but do you think it's fast it's interesting that they stop right I mean Ethan seemed like he was dead set on fine to go to the ends of the earth but they they've they've hit some sort of line or wall yeah and they can't go any farther I think they're out of supply out of money they're you know like they need to go back reset and come out again and the conditions are getting harsher as we see with the snow yeah good boy we cut to a pond of water with cattle and horses

1:13:44drinking at it Ethan and Martin ride by it slowly in the distance the music here Steve is hopeful with an air of almost homecoming to the sound of the music and then to me we see a scene that mirrors the opening scene with the yoghonsons coming off of their porch to see Ethan and Martin arriving the angles are almost the same and the shot framing is absolutely gorgeous with the iconic monument valley mountain the background and the horse and the stalls and the foreground in my mind I think that it's symbolic of how small we can sometimes feel in comparison to nature or to an overwhelming journey or task we've been handed to our lives just the framing of it they look so small in the shadow of that mountain I think that's all the movies that Ford shoots in monument valley I think that's thematically you know we are small in the face of an impossible difficult challenge in an impossible world that is so much bigger than us and again Lawrence of Arabia man you feel

1:14:45the same way yes yes the Georgians' daughter is smiling she excitedly takes off her apron and adjusts her collar this is the same girl for the funeral as I said earlier with Martin it is Laurie Georgensen and she is played by the great Vera Miles I love Vera Miles and I love her in this she's born in 1930 she was Miss Texas by the way oh her first role in 1951 was two tickets to Broadway her first movie role was Tarzan's Hidden Jungle but I believe this is her second movie and this of course is her big break she goes on to do a bunch of things with Hitchcock including the wrong man she was supposed to star alongside Jimmy Stewart except she got pregnant and so was replaced by Kim Novak in Vertigo she was initially going to be and I'm sure we discussed it when we did Vertigo back in the day yeah yeah so she was supposed to be that character Vertigo but Hitchcock hadn't turned on her yet because of course he brought her back as the sister in Psycho she's in

1:15:46another John Ford movie the Manu shot Liberty Valence and of course like everybody else all sorts of TV Twilight Zones my three sounds gun smoke she was a regular on the Hollywood squares which I think is awesome and came back I believe it's in the 80s to be in the infamous psycho two of course of course I got our members things like a two in the theater I saw it I have no memory of it at all but I know that I did see it two and three I've ever seen two and three I don't think I saw three yeah you're better for it oh you got my letter about your son Brad yeah you're just about this time a year ago oh Eden this country Steve this got me this got me this time I mean this he's such a good actor and seeing him break and you see where Brad got his emotion from yeah his father is emotional Brad is emotional and so it's

1:16:47like a a connective tissue in a way but him saying this country which would be something he says a couple more times during some of his scenes clearly he's like an immigrant who's come to this country and how hard this country can be and how hard the conditions are being out here and so there's so much behind that what he's saying and I think it's a beautiful moment between them you know and Ethan receives it well as well which shows he is still a human being amidst all his other stuff you know I would never to be one to say that living in the modern world is not extremely hard it is our world is fucked up in all sorts of ways and getting through it and there's a lot of sadness and a lot of depression but it is an entirely different kind of hard from the hard that founded America you know like being out there and it's just the line of you got my letter yes a year ago like that the the time we you and I text almost every day like with my son I know where he is at all times the expectation is essentially that everybody you care about you can

1:17:49reach at a moment's notice even if they're all the way around the world yeah and in this world I mean the law later on Laurie's going to go five years without a letter I mean can you imagine you don't know if someone's alive or dead and they could be dead because of what you know Jorgenston says about this country this is a dangerous dangerous world and you might just never hear from that person again and never find out what happened to him that's a tough tough world they're living in well there's it there's a microcosm of what happens in our lives right Steve I mean how many friends you were friends with the kids do you even know where any of those kids are but you shared those like we saw with Stan by me you never have friends like you had when you were 12 years old but then they just kind of disappear right and you never hear from them now of course we can go on Facebook or find them and all this but like we're not that far away from a time where if someone left your life you might never hear from them again or find them yeah yeah Marty Martin Polly and she runs out to kiss him this is Jorgenston says

1:18:52and him probably forgetting all about you probably can't even call your name to mind our name is Laurie and I've fairly forgot just how pretty she was and they all walk in as Laurie takes Martin's arm but Mrs Jorgenston stops on the porch turns and asks Ethan what about Debbie? Ethan shakes his head and walks in the house I'll just say Viramiles is a much needed ray of sunshine in this clothing man yes I mean she comes in and she's gorgeous I mean she's just beautiful and she's just she's just exuding this energy that is entirely different from anything we've experienced so far thank God yeah yeah I agree and she's the she's the engine of the relationship with her Martin she is the engine Martin is kind of like what's going on and she's like this is what's happened yeah um which I kind of I like women who take charge we cut to later and Laurie is bringing

1:19:53the buckets of water into a room where Martin is bathing speaking to take a charge in a tub this is really interesting Steve he covers up his body in a blanket in the tub almost in a stereotypically feminine way and this brought to mind the film boomerang when Eddie's the one who's like sleeping with all these women and leaving them behind and they're all like what's going on when Robin Given sleeps with him and she's the one that leaves the bed he like covers up with a blanket as if he's hurt imitating the women he had he had left in the past and his up to that point in the movie so I find this to be an interesting thing to show Martin that this is a little bit of a feminine move to cover up the way he's covering himself up with the blanket in the tub I love it I mean Martin at this point he spent at least a year and maybe more than a year out on the road with Ethan he has learned how to do some stuff he is a tough guy he's got him you know he knows how he knows how to hunt he knows how to build his fire he knows he knows a ton of stuff I'm

1:20:54pretty sure Martin is a virgin he's definitely a virgin in the book by the way I don't think he has any experience whatsoever with women and I think he's entirely freaked out to be you know in a position where because she's standing above him it's the she's on the floor she can look right down into that tub and see everything Martin's got you know to hide and so yes he grabs a blanket and covers himself up he's shy but I don't think Ethan would I think Ethan would be absolutely there it is you walked in on me sister yeah you want to come in I'm not gonna I agree I agree Ethan wouldn't cover up I do well and now I have I was gonna say this later and I'm gonna say right now because apparently I don't know if you have this in your notes but Ward Bond oh yes very into veer miles yes and did apparently possibly expose himself or stand in the window naked of the hotel room when knowing she was about to walk by sounds like there was some plucked up stuff from Ward Bond towards veer miles what a surprise that they were older men in Hollywood who were

1:21:55hitting on the younger woman who was on her second movie you know what a surprise but yes that's what I had as well that he had he did an on purpose he would stand in the window naked and almost like a peacock trying to call her into his room and it didn't work she never did anything with that because she didn't like it yeah yeah yeah what are you getting so red in the face about I got brothers ain't I yeah well I ain't one of them and then Laurie lays the hammer down now look here Martin Polly I'm a woman we women washing men your duty clothes all your lives when you're low eating wash you how you can ever make out to be best good front of a woman I'll never know you talk like a feather just miles well runner out naked when I mean it so she's wanting it on the table bro there's no there's no subtlety here there's no kind of court or flutton it's very much like let's make this happen dog literally you might notes after the next moment I wrote down dude you are in there's a there's I don't know if you when you're doing when you're in theater

1:23:00school as I was I don't know if you did stuff on George Bernard Shaw but there's an idea in Shaw who I love I think Shaw Shaw is like I you know there's Shakespeare festivals everywhere I would go to a Shaw festival I absolutely adore George Bernard Shaw one of the concepts that people talk about is plays is the concept which I guess is from Nietzsche of like the uber bench the Superman is that there's the Superman and the life force and so like in my third lady which is based on big million the Superman is Henry Higgins a brilliant iconoclastic person driving towards the things that he believes and that person has to be conquered by the life force which is Eliza the female energy oh yeah and the female energy understands things about the world and what actually matters that the person going off on their great missions of conquest doesn't really understand what the world is really about and I think Laurie in this movie is a perfect example of the life force she's like yeah that's all bullshit this is you and I are going to get married this is what's important it's right here and this is kind of a trope in westerns we see women who take charge of

1:24:05the relationship with the men they're with in numerous westerns and so it's nice I think it works well here as you said because most receipts now from the film yeah so we need kind of a comedic energy a lighter energy and Laurie serves the purpose as you said earlier Steve because after Martin says after she says it wouldn't bother me none she walks out then stops and she fakes walking out and then Martin goes into singing because he thinks he's by himself oh I gotta gal prettier than you and then she dumps the bucket of thrown water she brought in on his head and runs out laughing as he throws his boot after so the much needed ray of sunshine in this film you're so right well and to be clear right before he goes back to singing he takes that blanket that was covering his junk and moves it out of the way so when Laurie comes back in standing directly above him to dump that water on him she's looking right down at naked Martin so it's it's a great it's a great fun moment in the scene I agree can I tell you a little bit about what happens in the book oh yeah

1:25:10come back so in the book as we said the book is from Martin's perspective so which means that you're getting a lot of his thoughts so we know that Martin is 100% in love with Laurie that the whole thing he's been thinking about as they're coming back to the ranch is to see Laurie again and when he gets back to the ranch he sees that she is very grown up that she is incredibly beautiful and that she is not that into him he's been gone a real real long time there's like a big dance and so he goes to the dance in ten because you know he thought they he thought they had a thing he thought they were you know promised to be engaged when there were three we thought he had an understanding or whatever goes to the dance every guy wants to dance with Laurie and she dances with every one of them multiple times with Charlie and yes she dances with Martin too but she does not give him any of the attention that he wants to get so the whole relationship is flipped in the opposite direction oh interesting wow oh well well we cut to later that night with Ethan and Lars on the porch

1:26:15outside discussing Ethan's attempts to save Debbie my majoring in so now walks in and sits down and says well you did all about he could even I got your boy killed don't go blaming yourself for that it's this country killed my boy yes by Gale I tell you what you're eating it's just so happy Texan's we be Texan's Texan is nothing but a human man way out on a limb this year and next maybe for a hundred more but I don't think it would be forever someday this country's gonna be a fine good place to be maybe it needs our bones in the ground before that time can come this is such a great set of lines to give this older woman who's probably seen a lot of things in her time and it's in a way kind of echoing something to the post-World War II generation here in the 50s Steve just came out 56 and it's just saying like you know people have sacrificed themselves so

1:27:15this country can be a good place to be and we know that there's a lot of respect for the world preview what people went to World War II and sacrificed their lives to fight against the Nazis and to keep our country free and we're seeing the boom the boomers coming through we're seeing the boom come through in the 50s and so this is in a way kind of like a rallying call for Americans and to appreciate people who have built the foundation of this country and who died in building the foundation of this country I think this is a powerful salt of the earth speech I think this is I think she is she is actually as far as I can tell the most grounded responsible person that we meet in the film in a lot of ways you know I'll tell you where the connection I made I agree with everything you said is it made me really think of the other John Ford film that we've done which is the grapes of wrath in the grapes of wrath we have characters they're in Oklahoma but they're not that far from Texas right and what and they're getting pushed off their land and they don't want to

1:28:16leave their land and the reason they don't want to leave is they say you know my my father my grandfather my my great-grandparents they got to this land they their bones are in this land they made this land they fought to protect this land and I went who are the grandparents of the of the generation of the despoel well the grandparents they would be in the 1860s 1870s 1880s this is them these are the ancestors that are putting down their roots in the land and fighting to protect it and sacrificing and being buried on this land that a few generations later are being kicked off that exact same land and forced to move the point and for those you don't know Texan is an informal blend of the words Texan and Mexican it's used to describe people language or culture connected to both Texas and Mexico because at this time early Anglo settlers in Mexican Texas were there and they're used that term Texan to describe themselves and later it would become years later

1:29:16it would become the word Texan so when you hear a person say they're Texan yes they're saying they're from Texas but if they're old enough they might be referencing the the newer term for the term Texan so I think it's an important thing to hit with her and what she's saying and just then Lars remembers a letter in a chest for Ethan from Charlie McCory last winner Lars brings in a letter which Laurie seems worried about if you look at the shot at Vera Miles and Ethan reads it now this is a fun little moment Steve because Ethan moves away from Lars who's being a bit nosy and something falls out of the letter take a look at this just a snippet calico I've ever seen before maybe on a dress Debbie war yes yes it was an apron Ethan have they found her yet not yet so what does this what do you think is mean Steve I think I think this is at least maybe for Marty but definitely for Ethan is the

1:30:24just one I thought I was out they pull me back in oh this is the I think I think Ethan probably would have continued hunting scar forever but I think Martin is at a moment where he comes back and finds Laurie and I think he's at a moment where maybe he's realized it's hopeless because at a certain point like you know the odds are Debbie is dead yes that's what the odds are and so at a certain point it's like well maybe we shouldn't continue but this little strip of fabric means no she's out there we could find her and I wonder that's what Laurie was worried about had Laurie read the letter already you know because she seems like someone who wouldn't be like well I can't read my parents letters or anything like I wonder if she had found the letter and so she's worried that Martin's going to take off again you know well what did we what do we see later on Laurie gets a letter addressed to her yes and it's forced to read it to everybody and this is the thing and and this is you know I read so many historical novels this is exactly accurate which is a letter was a big event they thought they got one one a year you know so when you get a letter

1:31:29it was read over and over again by the whole family so Ethan moving away is is actually the the strange bit of behavior you know and so and I am certain that letter is open I think that you're again sin and Laurie and the whole family read that letter many many times right that you explain Laurie's face yeah we'll come back to Martin's room as Laurie walks in Laurie come let the boys get to bed all right Paul but as she's about to walk out she turns around suddenly runs back to Martin and kisses him which elicits a smirk from Ethan which is a great little moment you know that Laurie's not intimidated by Ethan she's also going to do what she wants whether Ethan likes it or not Jorgensen's been running my cattle with his own your cattle you mean Debbie's cattle he's agreed to take you on and split the increase in my herd while I'm gone I'm pushing on tomorrow well I sure ain't gonna stay here I started out

1:32:32looking for Debbie I intend to keep on why why well because she's my she's your nothing she's no kidding to you at all boy Steve he is laying it on thick and trying to keep now do you think he's saying all this because it's from a place of care to keep Martin here and do you think he's maybe insulting him in this way because it's the quickest way to get Martin to possibly agree to stay by offending this is why this is a brilliantly written scene what's so great about this scene is that you have two characters trying to express a certain thing not hearing what the other one is actually trying to express and hearing something else so what I think it is a hundred percent that Ethan is actually trying to set up Martin in a life with Lauren yes yes and and then he will go on alone I think it is that is what his intention is but the first thing he says is they've been running my cattle for me and that gets Martin that's the only thing he hears yes he goes whoa whoa

1:33:40whoa because the whole the whole purpose of Martin's life at this moment save Debbie Debbie is alive Martin would not go on this journey for revenge he does not want to I mean I'm not saying he wouldn't want to kill Scar if he saw him but that would not be the purpose of his life yeah purposes to save Debbie so when he says my cattle Ethan has betrayed this thing that has been the sneaking the sneaking suspicion of Martin throughout this whole thing that he doesn't care about Debbie that he's only here for revenge or might even kill Debbie so now he's a hundred percent on that tack and Ethan is still trying to continue this I'm setting you up for your future thing well and here's another element of this at the beginning of the movie we saw that there might there are some illusions to Ethan possibly being a criminal he showed you know what's his face Clayton says that you fit a lot of descriptions and he gives Aaron like 60 Yankee dollars that are not scratched up in any way so it's not a leap to think that Martin has heard stories of Ethan being

1:34:43a criminal or stealing money or whatever so he doesn't know Ethan that well even riding on the on the on the journey with him so he might also think him saying his cattle is Ethan trying to chisel his way in and make money off of the cattle that way as well you know so there might be an element of that in Martin's mind yeah well Martin responds to Ethan saying that she's no kin to him at all by saying well I was kind of thought she was it where folks took me in it raised me that don't make you know kin all right maybe it don't but I intend to keep on looking anyway and Ethan calls him out it's a little bit like you know the mask getting someone he's like how you got any horses or money to buy him you ain't even got money for cartridges jargonson's offering you a good living here Martin there's something I want you to know yeah I know what you want me to know then I got no kin I got no money no horses all I got here is a bunch of dead man's closed to it but you told me that already so shut your mouth and then he rolls over into his bed

1:35:47with his back to Ethan and I wrote here like a pouting teenager so this is an interesting back and forth because I do think Ethan very clearly is telling him that he wants him to live this life as you said earlier here Steve with Laurie and do these things and your organs is going to set him up and I do think Ethan is about to say something yes real right when he says there's something I want you to know I think he's going to say I appreciate you thanks for going like I think there's something and then Martin just cuts him off and Ethan doesn't push the issue it's a fascinating moment well this is what I mean by people having two different conversations and not hearing the things that the other people person is trying to say because the you know just to go back to the you know she's my sister I think of her as my sister right that's that's Martin's truth that's really important he is doing this because this is his family what Ethan hears is you're saying that's a Cherokee half breed forgive me for using those terms is claiming to begin with me with Martha

1:36:53with with my whole family he rejects that that is terrible so now Martin has said a thing about how he cares about this family and cares about Debbie but Ethan has received it as something insulting and you know polluting and so he has this strong reaction and so even though he's still after that strong reaction is trying to turn it to I actually care about you yeah in this line I agree with you is it's him saying there's something I want you to know I think I think it's the precursor to the will I think it's something like listen if I get killed out there then I want you to take care of the cattle I mean I think he's he's trying in his Ethan way to say something really kind but at this point because the racism just happened and the other pushback happened Martin is incapable of hearing what's happening and responds to the thing that upset him which was Ethan's you know insults and racism to me fair Ethan is terrible at this like like Martin I don't blame

1:37:58Martin for reacting like he does because Ethan is terrible at this and at no point I would imagine has Ethan ever been vulnerable with Martin to the point where Martin would even think Ethan's about to say something vulnerable to him about his feelings or about his future about the will or any of that I just think in that moment Martin you know pushes back as teenager sometimes do in those moments and hold on to certain things and say things I remember being a teenager and I would my father would try to say stuff to me and I would just pound and yell at him and walk out the walk out of the room it happens yeah so yeah so I totally get what that's all about there what he's doing but I do think there is an element of Martin trying to be like it's like he did in the valley he's trying to get or sorry element of Ethan is trying to get Martin to to realize what he's got because and and another thing when you said Steve here that thing is born like you said it insults him a little bit and it could be that it could be the racism I don't really see that here but it could be an element of what's going on but also if if it is your angle that there's a the racism

1:39:02and that he doesn't think Martin should say that he's related to him it's even worse if we accept at the beginning of the movie that this could be Ethan's daughter Debbie and so Martin saying that he's related to her could make Ethan even more his blood boil even more for sure we cut to the next morning as Martin walks into the main house and sees Laurie Martin is flirting with her as they talk about how he slept and then he sneaks a kiss in which she returns with fervor and gets his coffee and Martin now tries to stumble over his words to try to talk to her and he says you know Laurie I was just thinking that maybe it's about time you and me start going steady huh well Martin poly you and me been going steady since we're three years old we have that time you found out about it so there's two scenarios here that I one scenario is when they were three years old they were little kids they actually said okay we're going steady and Martin has forgotten another scenario is that when there are three years old Laurie decided

1:40:04that they were going steady didn't necessarily inform Martin and is only telling him now I like the second one better for sure well gosh Laura I've always been fond of you but well with all this trouble with with Debbie and Ethan I just... Ethan wrote on an hour ago now Martin I don't know what you can do about fun and Debbie that he can't so she's now in the camp of trying to keep him here right and she didn't tell she didn't wake him up to tell him that Ethan had gone on Ethan probably told her don't wake him up which fit Laurie's needs and now she's trying to convince him after the fact to stay here and not roll on and now Martin Steve kind of comes into his own as a character here and we as the audience I think are a bit taking it back and how aware he is of Ethan's racism because he hasn't really given us a full clue and he says to Laurie very earnestly he'll find her now Martin honestly will it's what I'm afraid of Laurie him find her

1:41:05oh I've seen his eyes at the very word command I've seen him take his knife and I have a mind he's a man that can go crazy well and I intend to be there to stop him in case he does I was hoping I could hold you here but I guess I knew better here I still let for you and it's the letter for last night I think this line so the I'll tell you you know how I said before that the possibility occurred to me that Lucy was still alive and that Ethan killed her with his knife that he's now digging in the dirt with it's this line when he says I've seen his eyes at the very word of Comanche I've seen him take that knife and that's what made me make that connection oh yeah that knife is I I think this is this is a heroic thing that Martin this young kid is deciding to do is he is going I'm going to rescue Debbie from

1:42:06the Comanche but I might also have to rescue Debbie from my partner in in this film you know yeah yeah that's it that's tough yeah I agree with you Steve very tough and I wonder if there's also an element underneath it look Martin's been he's been wanting to be respected by Ethan since the beginning of the movie and accepted by Ethan right and maybe there's also an element that Martin cares for Ethan because he is family because Martin very much cares about family and wants to stop Martin from indulging in the darker elements of himself now I don't know how much of that is in the movie maybe I'm adding that but I can't discounted completely because of what Martin has shown us and the depth he's willing to go for anyone he's related to in honor of the death of Aaron and Martha I think it's absolutely in the movie I totally agree I think you know he is a he is a orphan who was taken in by this amazing family who was murdered that's his whole thing is all things is

1:43:07it yeah right yeah yeah yeah yeah um as I said a Lori gives Martin the letter from last night Martin tries to read it but he is not the best at it so Lori just takes it from him and reads it I bought a small sized dress off an engine if this here's a piece of your child's dress brain reward where they got Jeremy fight him it Jeremy fight him it well Lori he's got a small trade and post on the sole part of the branos but Lori listen I just got to get me a horse do you think you're palm I finish your breakfast but Lori I gotta find it all right go and find him oh Lori talk to you understand and then she goes full incredible Hulk and she shoves him through the bench to the ground and she's even shocked by her actions and walks out so it's it's funny and it's a grateful and I love Vera Miles I think she's great and Jeffrey Hunter took it that is not a stupid that is Jeffrey Hunter falling backwards against that wall regards yep yep and then we cut to her

1:44:09outside yanking her horse behind her to give to Martin and throws a rifle but Lori that's your own good horse that sweet face you take him and welcome but don't you count on fun in me here when you get back I've been hanging around his godforsaken windscarf for too long years waiting for you I ain't cut out to be no old mate well I'm sorry Lori but I just got a catch up with Ethan I think it's a great scene and I think you know it's it's efficient it's tight it's fun you get a perfect sense of Lori's character and I get it I don't you know it's like I don't know that you should wait for Martin yeah yeah well she's a teenager too and just like Martin turning over in the bed to not listen to Ethan Lori can't hear what Martin is saying because Lori's not getting what she wants and so she in a way is kind of pouting by throwing a rifle yanking the horse telling him to go off then instead of understanding that Martin is doing this to stop Ethan possibly killing

1:45:11them you know so there's something that's like you said early with Ethan and Martin these are two people having a conversation but not really hearing each other about where they're coming from and I say did Martin make the right choice here Steve should he have stayed home with Lori built a life and you know just kind of pushed the feelings about the loss of Debbie down trusted and Martin would find her and that the best thing would happen or did he make the right choice by going with Martin to make sure he doesn't kill Debbie by the end of the movie well this is what I meant by when in the scene with Mrs. Jorgensen when she's saying don't forget the boys and don't have them waste their lives on revenge that I was so conflicted because I mean we know where the movie goes we happen to know because we've seen the film many times that Debbie is still alive that she does remember them and that it's gonna work out so in that sense they absolutely made the you know he absolutely makes the right choice to go because they rescue Debbie but if you go and this

1:46:12where it goes to the odds is like well are the odds 10 to 1 the Debbie is dead 100 to 1 1000 or if not dead you know unrecoverable you know like it might be that there is nothing you can do to help Debbie and there's a big difference between 10 to 1 and 1000 to 1 and if and I don't know how to calculate that Ethan might have I think Ethan probably has a pretty good calculation and I think his calculation is probably that it is exceptionally unlikely that Debbie is alive and if she is alive it's you know in Ethan's mind not savable so if that's the reality then Martin is absolutely making the wrong choice in my opinion but this is but this is why I'm tortured by this choice because if my kid is in pain right now yeah and I can do anything to go save him I will go do that but if there is nothing I can do then waste you know they're the children Martin can have with Laurie there's other people that can be held there's protecting while Martin and Ethan are off in the wilderness

1:47:14Jörgensen farm is who's protecting that yeah Lord it's like there's all these consequences all these positive things they are not capable of doing because they are on the hunt for Debbie which works out so in that sense it is the right choice but I'm not sure it always is yeah well we cut to Jerem Federman's traitor post with Ethan and Martin who is caught up to him by now walking in to talk to Federman and this and Jerem Federman is played by Peter Mammacos and this is this is going to be an interesting conversation we'll get through the scene Steve but I want to ask you a couple of questions about Federman and some of the accusations that I've made about his character in the movie you send me a letter Jerem about address Federman gives him a suspicious look and then pulls out the dress and hands it to Ethan who gives it to Martin who confirms that it's Debbie's with a nod how'd you come by here said it'd be a thousand dollars reward that's what I

1:48:16said got it with you you'll get the reward when I find her and if she's still alive a man's gonna write to expect some kind of payment highly old for that dress and sending you that right and Ethan gives him 20 Yankee dollars a young buck festered in late last summer said it belonged to a captive child of chief scar it doesn't seem like Federman's lie he's got this knowledge of it and he's you know he's relaying what he's and he's connecting it up to scar which only certain people would know right Steve um I think that yes no I think it's absolutely clear that this he is telling the truth on some levels by the way I did look it up that 20 Yankee dollars at that time is worth just under six hundred dollars today hey a thousand dollars would be about 23 thousand dollars so that's so Ethan is carrying 23 thousand dollars around with him everywhere he goes yeah so that is a lot of money scar we ain't never heard of him have we so this is the first time that Martin has heard the name scar we've known scar because we know the cast list and we know the

1:49:16character's name but right Martin or Ethan don't I don't know how much Ethan may even have heard of scar I don't I don't think they have I don't think they have good point but this buck claimed he was a big watchy with a no yucky command you talking scar's ban was headed north to winter in a fort windgate eaten agency beef that's what this buck said maybe you lied and Ethan giving us the first window into this guy maybe not being on the up and up says maybe you lie in that case my friend you won't find her in I won't get my thousand dollars so I guess this is where I'll bring this up uh Steve because there have been some uh there's been analysis of this character of funerman and some people have said that it is implicitly coded as a Jewish character because it is a Jewish character um and the fact that he is greedy for money and only wants and he's like a two time he's a gonna backstab them a little that people think this is an anti-semitic trope this character

1:50:21I've never read it that way but I'm certainly not gonna argue with scholars or and Jewish critics who've said this about this character in the searcher so I ask my Jewish co-host do you feel that about this even the look of funerman you would argue in the 1950s was used in something like cartoons to look a certain way so is this a Jewish coded character is this a stereotype and is the money thing part of the coding of this character what are your thoughts so let me first say it never occurred to me that funerman was Jewish until recently I watched this I've seen this movie more than once I talked about it you know 10 years ago I never went oh that is an obviously clearly Jewish character to me yeah to me it reads more like that that I could be a Jewish character and and here's my my real feelings about it is I would never tell someone who is offended by something or or feels that something is anti-semitic that they're wrong and they shouldn't

1:51:26feel that I don't feel that way here and in particular my general take is I believe you know you've heard me say many times I don't think races are a real thing in terms of genetics I don't think the way that we we divide ourselves into all these groups makes a lot of sense because I think we're all humans and we're all fully capable of the full range of the human experience and part of that human experience is being a greedy betraying asshole and that and to say that you can't have a Jewish character and again I don't think this guy particularly reads as Jewish to me but we could I saying that a Jewish character can never be greedy or never betray someone is actually dehumanizing Jewish people I think all people you know it's the same conversation we were having because it came up before on our short about the latest episode of lanterns it's like everybody wants like well if you have a black character then that must be representing all black people and I think that is an incredibly dehumanizing thing to say because it's essentially saying that black people are not

1:52:30capable of the entire range of human experience and emotions that all of us are so for me just having a character who let's say that let's say with the intention was that it was Jewish and this guy decided that hey that guy has a thousand bucks I might be able to ambush him and steal it that's not to me anti-Semitic like if they worked really hard to make the character Jewish and his only trades were that he was money-grabbing yeah I would probably feel that that was an anti-Semitic portrayal but I believe that Jews are capable of being bad guys they're all sorts of you know you can go through the mob history and Meyer Lansky and all these people that there's a whole Jewish mafia lots of Jewish people have committed crimes so it's like to me it's that no I do not find this anti-Semitic I again I'll say what I said at the beginning if there are people who do I respect your opinion and that you know and you're right to feel that way but that's not how I feel yeah the analyst pointed out that like the Jewish characters are rarity in westerns and

1:53:31and to me I go back to this it's the 19 middle of the 1950s neither you and I were alive no matter what people think about our ages you neither you and I were alive and then so I don't think we could know whether this was an implicitly coded character here in 2026 of being Jewish because we aren't surround we weren't surrounded in the night in the 1950s with a certain kind of like portrayal and so for me as I said just like you I've watched this many many times it is never occurred to me that fundamental Jewish it just occurred to me that he was yet another harder-edged person in this yeah settling land who does what he needs to do to survive for better or worse you know and so but Ethan clearly suspects fundamental yes for his own reasons and since Ethan is a racist it's not a leap in logic to think that he his suspicion of fundamental although it's well-founded by the end of this sequence could be coming from a racist place if this guy is Jewish

1:54:36you know so I can see why analysts or film critics might believe that about this character so you know what I'll say I think John Ford is one of the great storytellers and film history and if he really wanted to create an anti-Semitic negative image of this character he would have done it more clearly we cut to late with Martin and Ethan camping out in the evening and Martin asks Ethan do you have a feeling that maybe we're being followed so even Martin senses that something is all this whole thing is a setup from Ethan Martin is right but Ethan is trying to set up Martin to be the bait for fodderman here in just a few minutes he's acting so out of character yes so it's so Martin is a hundred percent right like Ethan could just go listen right they're coming and we're gonna and but this is what we're gonna do that's what he does no no he's like no uh here

1:55:38that's not it's not a big deal uh Ethan puts more wood on the fire which is a comic moment and Martin like a young man hates it and Ethan like an old man says he needs it because let me tell you for those of you who are younger when you get older it gets colder at weird places and it gets hotter in weird places you gotta deal with it then Ethan walks up on Martin and almost like tuxam into bad by making sure the blanket covers Martin completely and he asks him are you comfortable which is like this totally how the character Martin even says are you all right like what is happening here but by the way if if the fire is too hot you can move far that away from the fire he is right next to that huge bonfire of course it's hot um but then we see because Martin has his back to Ethan we see Ethan fake wrap his stuff up in a blanket to make it look like it's him and then he walks away and we cut to federman and his crew who are writing up on their horses um federman purchase on the

1:56:41ledge and shoots at what he thinks is Ethan as Martin wakes up and scrambles out of there then from behind we see Ethan from behind with his rifle call out to federman who gets up to run but Ethan shoots him in the back and then Ethan shoots and kills the rest of federman's crew Steve Ethan has no issue killing people in the back uh and that is it that is a trope in the old west of showing that you're cowardice or that you don't respect to people so it's interesting we see him do this in the movie and he almost shoots the command you in the back when they're retreating uh which Clayton stops him from doing so a couple things about this he does yell federman for does so the like and maybe there's some sense of I don't want to shoot you in the back but yes he has no problem and it is when when you're down to life and death situations yeah what exactly they were clearly coming to kill Ethan and Marty there's no question about that so what are your you know you're you're one guy with a rifle the other guy's on the ground you're

1:57:44facing three guys like why are we supposed to obey all these rules the other thing what what what I find more distressing so his plan is he creates a decoy of himself and puts a real real bright fire next to Martin and we see when federman is on top of that rock he shoots the decoy Ethan in the head yes for Ethan gets to shoot foderman which means that essentially it was a coin toss between whether or not he shoots Martin in the head or Ethan in the head it's a 50-50 shot so he put Martin up with a 50% chance to get killed in order to use him as bait that is really fucked up well I think maybe Ethan's mind he thought well some the one that has the money he'll probably kill me first sure you're right it's still a 50-50 chance because trying to depend on the logic of a criminal to be linear is a fools game so at night to be looking down at shadowy you know people that

1:58:44are undercover and decide which one you want to shoot first we why you just take me out there like a piece of bait you're wet and build up the fire your face is so I can get my brains glowed out what if you missed never occurred to me which is accompanied by a weird lighthearted bird-like music q-steve that's something out of like a fucking three-stooge's movie it's just weird that's a full comedy sting it is a hundred percent well and it makes me wonder so one of the reasons that Ford shot the way he did was this so people couldn't recut his stuff because in general the director wasn't in the editing room I don't know usually the director had moved on to their next picture I don't so it wasn't like today where the director is really approving everything along the way I don't know that he approved every music q in this film oh yeah because this one really stands out as sort of just an old school we just had a funny moment and now we have a funny piece of music

1:59:44it's just like that weird moment in citizen Kane after he writes the commandments and it goes yeah yeah and you see well is doing a weird kind of smile and you're like what what what was this anyway and I wrote here I guess all right Steve because he used a young man as bait without telling him but it's a weird moment in the movie but we got ourselves a nice little funny music you so it's okay it's just like what so as Ethan and Martin have survived a footerman in this crew trying to betray them Ethan served up Marna on a plate this might be a good time to stop part two of our conversation on the searcher Steve as always we'd love to hear your thoughts this conversation doesn't have to end with us it can continue with you on social media you can visit us on Facebook do a search for synophilus on its cina underscore files on x the cinephiles podcast on instagram of course we'd love you to subscribe to the show if you haven't already you can do so on youtube on all the podcast apps if there's a place to leave a comment leave them we'd love to interact with you there if you feel

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