World-first baby skull surgery, and could AI kill us?

0:00Welcome to the Naked Scientist podcast, the program that brings you the biggest breakthroughs and talks to the major movers and shakers in the worlds of science, technology and medicine with me, Chris Smith. Coming up, a world-first treatment to fix the skull of a British-born baby with a bone problem. Also, grave warnings over rapid AI advances, is it a gimmick or is it time to enact an artificial intelligence treaty with teeth? And the scientists collaborating with narwhals to get these extraordinary animals to do their Galatiology research for them.

1:00A one-year-old boy with a condition called craniosynastosis where the bones of the skull fuse together prematurely, limiting the growth of the brain and head, has been given a world-first treatment by a team in London. Untreated craniosynastosis can lead to serious complications, but the development of a new modeling system and a newly engineered set of metal springs to push the skull bones apart has enabled surgeons to fix the problem in a minimally invasive way and even practice the procedure many times over before going anywhere near young Rory himself. It's the work of UCL Biomedical Engineer Sylvia Skivano, whom we'll hear from in just a minute, and great Ormond Street neurosurgeon, Awes Gellani. Rory has a condition called craniosynastosis, so when a baby is born, the baby's brain does a lot of its growth in the first few years of life. It increases in size exponentially, and the skull has growth lines that accommodate that growth.

2:03Some children are born with a condition where those skull lines are fused at birth. What that does is that as the brain tries to grow, the skull may not expand at the same pace, which can cause quite serious problems of race, pressure and cognitive issues. Approximately one in two thousand babies have this, so Rory presented our clinic with this problem and it's something that we've been thinking about and dealing with for at least 35 years now. What therefore is the right way to intervene. You're saying that the suture lines that junctions between the bones of the skull in these individuals join up too soon, so the skull can't grow normally. Is it as simple as just opening those back up again, or is it more complicated than that? That's an excellent question, Chris. Opening up the suture lines is what's called a suture rectum. He and that has been tried for many, many decades now. It helps to an extent, but does not give us an optimal correction. Things fuser again. A technique that we pioneered

3:06was to open up the suture line and then instead of the natural spring, the suture which should be working, developing and inserting artificial springs. That is the technique that we're talking about here, where we replace the natural spring with an artificial device, an artificial spring, which does the role of the natural spring. Put something almost like a shock absorber that can stretch into those junctions between the bones. This would allow an afford growth because as the brain gets bigger and the head gets bigger, they just stretch and stretch the spring making space. That's correct, Chris. What we've been able to do over the past 20 plus years is really progress the technique from thinking and dealing with it as a simple sort of woodwork problem, to an engineering problem where we use minimal access techniques to achieve the same results. This is where you come in, Sylvia. You're the person charged with making those springs. Yes, indeed. In Rory's case, the problem was that it was quite severe than

4:09growing. The current devices that are available are not good enough to guarantee a good opening or widening of the head. We have been working together with the team of engineers and computer scientists, clinicians here at the hospital to try and design better devices that can provide optimal solutions and better treatments for these patients, including the springs that we ended up using in Rory's case. There must be a number of challenges you've got to overcome here because you need something that's springy to the right extent, something that's very easy for a surgeon like a waist to put in and will stay put and not break prematurely. So it's got to have the right sort of strength and it's got to be very tolerable for the body. So what have you arrived at in terms of the solution here? Indeed, the challenge is to have a good balance between the forces that are exerted on the skull, which is a baby skull, so quite a soft skull, and the maximum achievement in terms of opening of the skull. So it's a careful optimisation of the forces, the properties, the

5:15methods that we use to make sure that there is a gradual open of the overall head without having to damage the other tissues, the surrounding tissues, the skull, the skin, and the other sutures in the head. What's the material that you've come up with to do this? We use NITINOL, which is a NITAL and Titanium alloy that has been used for many years in biomedical applications and devices, so very safe in terms of the biologic interaction with the human body, and it has a special property called the superelasticity, where compared to conventional stainless springs, the forces are releasing much more gentle way and for a longer period of time, which guarantees a better reshaping over time of the head of the patient. Well, on that, you've obviously got a child that's going to grow from newborn baby size or infant size up to, well, rest of live adult size, so this has got to work over a range of different length scales over a long period of time.

6:16So how do you model that? Or do you have sort of ways of testing it outside the body before you put your devices in, so you know it's going to handle that? We do indeed, so we create what is called digital twins. There are computational models of the patient's condition based on the city images, 3D photography scans and information acquire over time from the previous experience to create a computational replica of the patient's head, where we can then try and optimize several times the best position for the bone cuts that will happen during surgery, the best position for the springs that will be placed and the correct devices because we can use different sizes, different forces for the device that can be tuned for the specific patient. Oh, I see. Do these things literally look like little springs? I mean, how big are they? Can you just describe one for me? Yeah, sure. It's like a glorified hairpin. We're talking about

7:216 to 7 centimeters in length. They look quite simple and I think that's where a lot of the beauty lies. They're very simple devices that essentially replicate what nature should have done. Surgery, surgeons don't heal. Surgeons cause harm and it's nature that heals. So what we need to be able to try and do with surgery is really just nudge nature along the path it would have taken had the problem not being there. And the platforms that Sylvia's spoken about where we are able to rehearse these operations and practice dozens of times before actually getting to the operating theatre. That's where we've seen the biggest breakthroughs and that's really where the future of health how many springs do you need to put in then because you've basically got to come up with a system or a solution where the skull can expand naturally as though those natural sutures were open and working. So do you put multiple springs in in multiple places all over Rory's head in order to make that happen? How do you actually work out what to do and what did you do? Yeah, that's

8:23again an excellent question Chris. So when we first started doing these operations 20 odd years ago that's that's exactly the dilemma we faced where we thought we had to put more springs in so we would typically put anywhere between four and six springs in to try and get the result we wanted. But the modeling platforms, the digital twinning techniques that we've been able to do have been hugely useful because what they've shown us we don't need to be putting all those springs in. So now routinely we get the result with just two springs and not four to six. How do you actually do this though? We have a computer model that tells us precisely where the bone cut should be. So you put the child on an aesthetic make a small incision at the top of the head which is about eight centimeters long and then you get down to the skull and we typically cut the bone alongside the few suture. Once we've done that again the computer model that we've been working on tells you where the springs should be and the typically two springs then it's a case of simply implanting the springs in the skull, closing the skin over the top and the whole

9:27process takes about 45 minutes. The child goes home the next day so it's a huge advance compared to what we had to do for these children say 20 years ago. Wow how do you stop the bone healing up again? Because as you said surgeons I didn't like the fact you're saying surgeons do harm I think you're better than that but I know what you're getting at. Nature puts things right but nature wants to heal bones up so you come along and cut holes in bones they're going to try to heal so how do you stop the bones gluing themselves back together again? Well that's where the beauty of the modeling platforms comes in because eventually we want things to heal but we don't want them to heal prematurely. So then if you apply too little force the healing will start before the expansion has happened which is not ideal. If you apply too big a force then the springs have the risk of cheese wiring through the child's skull and again that's not good and you won't get the results you need so your load distance curve has to be optimally designed to fall between the two.

10:28You don't want it to be too soft and equally you don't want it to be too harsh. It's a brilliant fusion of engineering, material, science and clinical medicine isn't it Sylvia I mean this must be really good for you to see this sort of translate in this way. It is absolutely it's been really a proud moment to see this translated actually in benefit for patients. We've been working to develop these devices for a long time but it's not always easy to them move on to the next stage and start with clinical dryers because they're really expensive they require lots of funding so I think this was really a proud moment for all the engineering work in India Hospital. How's Rory doing? Rory is a delightful little toddler now he's doing really well he's had a great result we're actually delighted with the results and they were pretty close to what we had simulated so his family and the standard we are very pleased as well and as Sylvia mentioned you know Rory's our first case and we're immensely proud of him and how

11:30things are progressed but this technology has the potential to help thousands and thousands of other children right across the world. So brilliant story isn't it O.H. Gilaani from Great Ormond Street Hospital and before him Sylvia Sivano from UCL. An AI researcher has sparked an international media frenzy by quitting his job and accusing the artificial intelligence giants Open AI and Anthropic of acting irresponsibly. Jacob Coxon whose work as a researcher at both companies said he resigned out of concern that Anthropic and Open AI are gambling with our lives. Evan Humonger whose head of alignment Anthropic even appears to have agreed with him posting online that we do earnestly believe AI could kill all humans exclamation mark. I personally think it is greater than 10% within the next decade. This comes off the back of Anthropic confirming that they've recently had to block a third party scientist in a defense facility from using their systems to discover ways to weaponize the chicken guinea virus as well as prior headlines

12:35a month or so back when an AI experiment run by Open AI went rogue it escaped the confines of the company's test environments and launched its own cyber attack against a rival tech company. The AI agents that participated in this jailbreak even seem to have taken steps to cover their own digital tracks to avoid discovery. The current AI arms race has got many people worried including Oxford University computational scientist and leading AI authority Mike Waldridge. This resignation comes after backdrop of a summer of quite eyebrow raising to say the least incidents around AI a group were testing AI agents. The way that you do this is you put them in what's called a sandbox. I mean I like to think of it as a padded cell and the idea of a sandbox is a software environment which to the AI just looks like it's out there in the world but the idea is it's completely contained so there should be no way that the AI should be able to actually

13:36access the real world and say the idea is you can run your experiment safely and see what happens but with no risk. But what actually happened was that the AI found a way out of its sandbox and then proceeded to hug into the systems of another company. Now it seems some of the safeguards had been removed from this system that is it wasn't operating as a regular production system might do and also that it had been given instructions it had been told to behave in certain ways and it was simply in some sense doing what it was told but nevertheless this highlights a couple of really really important issues and the first is that you know AI is a powerful technology and it seems we've got labs developing this frontier capability state of the AI capability with frankly sloppy experimental design. We wouldn't accept this in our nuclear labs we wouldn't accept this in our biology labs and we absolutely shouldn't accept it in our AI labs. So this is the first thing

14:36that really stands out for me. The second thing that stands out is clearly the AI here is demonstrating competence and in particular competence around cyber security attacks. I don't think we've seen some kind of like super intelligent mastermind level of packing going on here but what we have seen is large numbers of AI agents operating in parallel who can explore a wide range of different possibilities and some of them managed to succeed. So but nevertheless we've got to the point where AI is demonstrating clearly impressive capability for hacking into systems. You've got basically some computer code that discovers a flaw in the way in which it's being asked to operate and exploits that flaw to go and get into the internet at large but doesn't just do it in isolation it then recruits other agents these other bits of computer code running alongside it to come and help it and then you start sharing the know-how with them and even persuading some of them to use their

15:38resources because each of them had a sort of a budget didn't it of computer time it could use up to go and do various tests in order to pressure test the environment further and find out what it could get away with. I mean it was extremely inferior in some respects what it was doing. When I think about nightmare scenarios in AI right now it's not robots with lasers that's chasing after us it's the idea that you might have agents like this that attack critical infrastructures like our global payment infrastructures or our power infrastructures or just our endless computer networks around which our lives utterly depend at the moment. That for me is now currently the headline risk and actually I think that's a very very real risk. I mean as a biologist as a virologist and we've just come through a pandemic that's cost the world trillions that could have come from a lab we know that the sorts of experiments were being done in the laboratory in China that could have led to the creation of a coronavirus that could have caused COVID.

16:41We don't know we haven't seen the absolute evidence but we know they were working on that. There's expectation that when those studies are being done protocols are followed care and diligent practice is observed and that therefore we reduce the risk of these things escaping into the environment it's like you're saying no slopiness but I'm not sure from what I've read that they can reassure me that these programs haven't escaped and that they got them all back how do we know that actually they only went as far as they think they went. Well at some point we have to hope that the post-mortem was thorough but I mean my assessment of it is exactly the same as yours this was a lab leak basically exactly the kind of hypothesized scenario that might have happened in Wuhan at the end of 2019 we don't know I don't know whether we ever will know but it was certainly a lot of people believed it was a plausible scenario and what we're seeing here is is AI lab leaks and we need action to make sure that this this doesn't happen again and that involves an awful lot of thing I mean for one thing it involves ensuring that your sandboxes your

17:46padded cells are really really properly secure ensures having protocols in safe so that for example people don't set these experiments running and then go on holiday you know which is you know I don't know if that happened in this case but it doesn't appear that there was close scrutiny to what what was happening after these agents had been had been launched and it requires mechanisms to monitor them and to intervene it the earliest possible opportunity when we see behaviors that we don't want to see so I say I'm not freaking out about this but this is definitely a scenario which I think is alarming and which which absolutely requires action so when Jacob Cox and Evan Huberger from Anthropic slash open AI say greater than 10% chance that this will end humanity or words to that effect how might that come about through this sort of thing happening yeah very difficult to put percentages on things like that so I I'd avoid trying to do that but one thing that's worth bearing in mind here is that these experiments were launched by human researchers this

18:51wasn't an AI that suddenly decided to break out you know these these experiments were launched by human beings and by far the bigger risk to me is not that we'll see a kind of terminator software terminator type scenario that will decide to bring down the world's networks but that actually somebody will make a conscious decision to weaponize this and that that's what we'll create havoc if we see a serious incident from AI in the near future the kind of thing that we might see is kind of at the level of the disruption that we saw in in airlines this week when key airline traffic control systems went offline which caused huge disruption because of the reliance that's placed on those computer systems that's I think is by far the more plausible scenario rather than the end of humanity scenario but I say if you want to think about a nightmare scenario for AI I don't think it's robots chasing us with laser guns it is that you know AI attacks the critical infrastructure that our world depends upon you know we you know who uses money anymore and if you do use money

19:56where do you get it from you get it from an ATM you know which is part of that critical infrastructure so you know imagine the world's payment systems going down or you know or our energy systems going down imagine the chaos that that would create so I think this does need to be this does need to be a serious sort of wake up moment we've now got very competent AI which clearly has demonstrated the ability to carry out cyber attacks there is no reason why that should not be weaponized and I think it does highlight that the big concerns around AI right now I think are related to cyber security. Cybering stuff and I can't be the only one wondering whether rogue agent activities like these have already cloned themselves elsewhere across the world why web and are now out there lurking somewhere hidden inside software it's a really unsettling thought isn't it Mike Waldrich there from the University of Oxford. The Naked Scientist podcast is produced

20:57in association with Spitfire cost effective voice internet and IP engineering services for UK Find out how Spitfire can empower your company at Spitfire.co.uk This is the Naked Scientist podcast with me Chris Smith still to come Germany makes history with the first commercial rocket to reach orbit from continental Europe but first to Greenland where scientists have been collecting otherwise hard to gather data with the help of some unconventional lab partners they've equipped novels with sensor systems and transmitters and these majestic Arctic mammals have been unwittingly gathering ocean data for the past three years as they explore the region. They've helped the team to learn much more about how warm Atlantic waters are melting glaciers and contributing to ice loss. Here's the architect of the project Mad Peter Heidi Juggenston at the Greenland Institute of Natural Resources. The chances that we wanted to get some data on the

22:05temperature and the salt content of the water in the coastal areas of East Greenland where it's very hard to get to and it's very expensive to have ships expeditions to so we wanted to use novels that live in this area to collect the data for us. Just for people who are not in the know paint a picture of what a novel looks like. The novel is a very strange animal because it's a whale but it's also a tooth's whale but you only have essentially only one big tooth and that's a tusk that extends up to two to three meters from the left side of the upper lip of the of the whale. It also has a small tooth that is left inside that doesn't grow outside the skull or outside the cranium. I mean in the old days it was associated with the unicorn you know the horse that has a twisted horn on the head. It looked like that but it's a whale that breathes like mammals and

23:07live in the water. How long are they and how much do they weigh? Oh they weigh up to 1500 kilo and they become almost five meters long so it's a pretty big animal to handle. And they live in particular territories that you're interested in accessing which we can't easily access at the moment. That was the rationale for going with novels. Exactly and that's the now they live in the Arctic year-round and they have very specific places that they go to and they move between someone wins a between the same spot so we know where they're going and they often go right in front of the glaciers which is places that they're very hard to get to is also very dangerous because the glaciers kind of produce icebergs and you don't want to sail into an iceberg but the novels they live there they also live in the winter in these frozen seas where it's complete darken as per whales and the temperature drops to minus 30 or more and then we want to to capitalize on that habit of the novels when collecting

24:14data. Basically turn them into a swimming living eating breathing sensor. Exactly. Yeah. How do you do it? So the chance was to develop also an instrument that could collect data from the novels and that was kind of half the project so that was to make an instrument that can make sure temperature and salt content in the water quite precisely and at the same time also provide positions of the waves so we know where the data were collected and also the depth in the water. What does the sensor pack for one of a bed of phrase that does all of this data collection look like and how do you attach it to the whale? It's kind of a big matchbox you could say that has an antenna and has batteries for about one year where you can collect data and then it has this little sensor that measures salt content in the water that's a very fragile little thing that needs to be very stable so so we can trust the measurements and then have two little

25:16pins that records the temperature and the work so that we have to catch the the novels in nets so we can handle them on the beach and that takes about 20 minutes and when you have the animal in the net and then the instruments are attached to the dorsal rich of the novel by small nylon pins that goes through the dorsal rich and secure the tag. And what presumably as the whale at the surface then this data is beamed what to a satellite from the yeah I've got to mention that the the the whales they collected the data while they are diving and then when the whale comes to the surface then the the data are transmitted to a satellite it can only transmit when it's out in the air and then the satellite transmits the data to us that sits nice and comfortably at the office and bringing coffee in the middle of the winter while we monitor what temperatures the whales are living in. How many whales have you rigged up and how much data have you now got and did the mission deliver as in did they access those areas which are dangerous they're in

26:21accessible they're horrible and inhospitable and have you now got a rich data set from those areas that previously were pretty much off limits to scientists. For this very project and for this area we instrumented or put these instrument packages on six novels and they they work fine we got more than 2000 profiles that is kind of the recordings from the water surface to down to the deepest depths and some of them now sometimes types of 1500 meters so some of the deepest recordings are 1500 meters so we got 2000 of those profiles of the water the problem is that we are not completely in control of how long the text stay on the whales because they sometimes rip them off prematurely but the longest we had was about eight months so that's a pretty good data set we only get to to four data sets per day because we don't we don't want all the dive we only want from a few of the dive that the whales make. And what have you learned as well as obviously breaking new ground

27:27new water in terms of accessing areas and getting these data from these areas that were pretty hard to get to what have we learned about that that we didn't know before or couldn't predict? Well the main thing that we're interested in is to look at how much warm Atlantic water that is entering into these Arctic areas of East Greenland and the ways they provided data both offshore and the wintertime when they were outside the fuel systems off the coast and we could see there that the temperature over time has been increasing the Atlantic water the warm water from the Atlantic that enters the East Greenland Shelf's air has increased in temperature over time but we could also see that from the summer recordings when the whales were close to the glaciers that even some of the glaciers have up to 300 kilometers away from the coastal area there was still impacted a lot by Atlantic water because in front of the glacier there's often such a big basin of water at great

28:29depth down to a thousand meter or more and we can see at that depth we could also measure the Atlantic water coming in there and that has some significance because Atlantic water in front of the glacier is actually a thing that will promote the release of icebergs from the glaciers which of course a critical thing if you if there's a Atlantic water that intrudes into the fuel system and hit the glacier front and help the glaciers melting because that will increase the amount of freshwater that goes out in the ocean. Lovely piece of work and wonderfully told by Madspieta Heidi Jürgensen at the Greenland Institute of Natural Resources. A German startup has launched the first commercial rocket to reach orbit from continental Europe. Esau's launch from Norway comes as Europeans attempt to become much less dependent on the US space agency. Richard Hollingham from the space boffins has been bringing me up to speed.

29:29Well this is Isar Aerospace with support from the European space agency so it's not totally private money behind this and this is the spectrum launch. It was launched from the Andoia and may have got that wrong. Space port in Norway in the high Arctic. It's kind of northern tip of Norway where Norway sort of becomes this archipelago of islands. It was their second launch the first one exploded but this is the second one. Pretty good success actually only two launches to actually reach orbit. It's a ten-engine rocket capable of taking a ton to orbit. What I thought was interesting about this, I mean there's lots of things to say about this and why this is significant but this is the first launch to orbit from continental Europe and it occurs to me that the first launch to space ever was from continental Europe and that was the V2 rocket in 1944. So this is kind of coming full circle now. Is one ton to orbit? Is that a land

30:33mark or is that kind of fairly dearer go? Because I'm thinking a big GPS satellite for example weighs ten tons, it's the size of a bus. So is this a step towards that or is that enough to get really meaningful payloads into space? This was equivalent to six small satellites going into lower orbit and this is where you see this huge growth in satellites. So that's where Elon Musk star-linked satellites, that's where the rival one web satellites are, that all these small satellites kind of zipping around and it's brought the whole cost down of space. So manufacture of satellites has come down and this is where the market is for smaller, cheaper launches to lower orbit. So not those giant satellites you're talking about. So those giant communication satellites that sit in geostationary orbit way high above the earth or the big space telescopes like the James Webb Space Telescope which need much, much bigger rockets to get them into space. That's what they're going for.

31:35This would be a launch vehicle for putting satellites up there. That's the aim. That's the aim and that's where the market is and there has been this real push within Europe to have this capability. So Europe already has launches from French Guiana from the European Space Port. That's money backed by European governments into this company, Ariana Spass, huge amount of money from the European Space Agency, not usually so much, not traditionally so much from the UK into that. But the idea is to build kind of strategic space capability in Europe. So this isn't the only one. This just happens to be the first one from Norway. There are launch companies working on launches from Sweden. Sweden already launches rockets but not actually into orbit. So really they call sounding rockets. Essentially ballistic missiles that go up into the high atmosphere up into space and then then come back down again. So this competition from Sweden also from the UK and the UK was almost the first to launch if you include the UK within continental Europe. UK was almost the

32:41first to launch into orbit. And 2023 if you remember there was that virgin orbit launch. So it was this essentially missile really carried up beneath the plane that was then going to go into orbit. So I mean drop from the plane and then head out into orbit. Well that failed virgin orbit subsequently failed. But there is still a push to have launches from the UK from Shetland from the Saxovoid spaceport. So that could have been first and that could well happen in the next few months. But I have to say it's not a UK company. It's a German company that's looking to launch from Shetland. So I think within the next few years we're actually going to see several spaceports within Europe. I mean that's incredible really. Several spaceports launching into space from Europe. Why are German companies launching from these remote places? Is it because it's remote no one around less risk? You tend to launch north over the north pole. So that's why Shetland for

33:46example appeals because there's nothing much between Shetland and the Arctic. Same reason you launch from north of Norway, same reason you'd launch from the north of Sweden. I mean you could conceivably launch from the north of Germany. In fact that's where the V2 rockets were originally developed and tested. But the infrastructure is already there in these places. Already there in Norway, already there in Sweden, been developed in Shetland. Obviously you do not fly over people when rockets do have a tendency to explode. You don't want to fly over regular air routes for example. You don't want to have to close air corridors to launch your rocket and Europe is crowded. So the obvious place to launch from. If you're going to go up over the pole these polar orbits around the earth, then you do need to launch as far north as you can. And the UK in that respect has that advantage of having the Shetland Islands to be able to launch from. Why is there a move away from relying on the US? Is there a fracture appearing there? Or is there some reason why they're trying to do

34:50this? At the moment if you talk to any space company and they will not say this on the record, they say they have little choice but to launch with SpaceX from the US. That's Elon Musk's SpaceX company because it is way way cheaper than other options. So they ship this satellite to the US. It goes up on a regular SpaceX launch. They would like some choice. It also makes sense to have the launches near to where you're manufacturing the satellites. So you know there's a huge satellite manufacturer, a business in the UK. There's a huge one in Germany as well. You know, it's a lot easier. You can stick your satellites on the back of a lorry or on a train to your launch site, stick them in the rocket off they go. And you've got no problems with export controls or anything like that. And you've got more control over the whole process. There's also the political dimension. It's the reason why Europe has its capability. It's giant Ariane 6 rocket for example,

35:51from South America to European capability in case another country does pull the plug. I mean, you know, loads of satellites used to be launched from Russia. And of course with the invasion of Ukraine, they're not anymore. You know, European companies can't launch from Russia anymore. So that avenues close off. So having a sort of diversity of launches does make a huge amount of sense, which is why politically governments and Europe are putting money into these sorts of projects. Richard Hollingham from The Space Boffins and you can get much more space science news from Richard via The Space Boffins podcast. Look them up for literally hundreds of great episodes. That's it for today. Do join us on Tuesday though when we're going to be exploring the El Niño phenomenon and what we can expect from an event that scientists are predicting will be the strongest in history. Also do leave us a review please on whatever podcasting platform you use to get this show. These rankings really help our visibility and that matters of course. So thank you in advance

36:53for that. And if you do appreciate what we do for you each week, then do please consider supporting us with a donation over at nakedscientist.com forward slash donate. It means an incredible amount to us and it also, more importantly, keeps the show on the road. I'm Chris Smith and from the rest of the team here at the naked scientist. Thank you for listening and until we talk again, goodbye.