Wisconsin Sportsman - Inside a Driftless Trout Stream with Kirk Olson

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7:14Welcome back to another episode of the Wisconsin Sportsman Podcast, which is brought to you by Lone Wolf Custom Deer. I'm your host, Pierce Nellis, and this is your home for all things hunting, fishing, and conservation in the Badger State. Folks, I hope you're all doing well. I hope you're enjoying spring thus far, or hopefully, finally, we're going to be into some consistent spring. I'm hoping, I don't know, March is always a crap shoot. I'm sure we've got a little bit more snow in the forecast, beyond the 10-day window that we can see thus far. But I think I got some rain coming this week. Super fired up about that. At least as I record this, we got some rain in the forecast. Because I was out on the trout streams this last week, and things were a little low, a little clear, and we had some very opinionated trout that we were dealing with. If it wasn't perfect, they were not in the mood to eat it. So that's part of the fun of it. But it's kind of along the lines of what we're going to be talking about today. I've got Kirk Olson, the inland waters fisheries biologist for the Wisconsin DNR. Kirk, how are you doing today?

8:14Good, good. Yeah, happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, dude, I'm excited to have you. Sorry, I think we had a little bit of a lag there on my end. That's my bad. Yeah, dude, I am super stoked for this one. I have been wanting to talk with the driftless fisheries biologist for years now, and I just haven't gotten around to doing it. So I've got a whole lineup of questions for you as we were just talking about. And I'm excited to pick your brain. And I know folks listening to this are going to be really excited to learn more about kind of the inner workings of our driftless trout streams. We've talked to the handful of guides across the state and across the driftless who spend their time in the driftless and talked quite a bit about different strategies and fly presentations and all sorts of stuff. We haven't actually talked about the streams, the fish, and the actual biology of it. So I'm super excited to kick things off. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and kind of just who you are, where you're from, what you do for the DNR, and sort of the area and watersheds that you oversee? Yeah, yeah.

9:15So I'm Kirk Olson, a fisheries biologist here in La Crosse. I cover the waters in Monroe, Vernon, La Crosse, and Crawford counties. So kind of right in the heart of the driftless area. And basically, everything that isn't the Mississippi River. So yeah, there's a separate crew that covers the Mississippi. So I'm pretty much focused on trout stuff. There's a handful of small man-made impoundments in my area. But the majority of our work is trout stream work. So yeah, I grew up a big interest in trout fishing. And so yeah, it fits perfectly with what I really enjoyed doing in my professional background too. So yeah, well. Awesome. Yeah, that definitely is a good fit, especially when you can take that passion and line it up in a way that you can see a paycheck at the end of the week too. That's awesome.

10:15How long have you been the fisheries biologist for these counties? Yeah, yeah. I think I started here in 2017. So coming up on nine years here in spring. I guess, yeah, month or so. And so yeah, I've been here for a little while now. Yeah, before that, gosh, it worked for the DNR up north in Superior and Bayfield and Brule and working on all sorts of different projects as a limited term fisheries biologist up there. And yeah, it was, yeah, 2017 started here. So yeah, very nice. Were you working on trout waters up north there as well? Yep, yep, yeah. Yeah, worked on the Brule, worked on the White River up there in Ashland Bayfield counties. And yeah, with the biologists up there and kind of helping them pull their data together and write reports and do a little bit of work on a walleye in Lake Superior too.

11:18Just kind of a, most of my other work has been with Salmonids, but yeah, it was a fun project too. So yeah, yeah, totally. That's awesome, man. And that's, I mean, cool to be able to get that experience working with trout in such a different environment compared to what the driftless is. And like we've talked about it before on the show. How Wisconsin's kind of a training ground for whatever fish species you want to target outside the state and you're doing the migratory fish thing. You know, we've got some waters that you can play with that. I'm if you're going to go do high mountain, you know, super skinny kind of creeks. We've got the driftless. If you want to go do the hex thing, you're going to hop over the lake to Michigan. We've got the central region and all that. Or spoiled rotten with how many different sort of little, I guess, what would the product like, I guess different habitats, different regions, different, like. Yeah, I mean, kind of different opportunities. And you know, there's, yeah, like you say, the migratory forms that we have in the great lakes.

12:20Yeah, in the brule river alone, you know, that's kind of a unique place. You've got resident, broken brown trout. You've got migratory, you know, coho salmon and steel head. And you got resident rainbow trout. So there's just such variety and different types of fishing, you know, you need to understand or know how to do to catch those fish or target those different, those different, I guess, life history variants in that river. So yeah, and I mean, yeah, there's just so much diversity and opportunity in Wisconsin, you know, considering we don't have, you know, we've got the great lakes, but we don't have like, you know, an ocean shoreline or anything like that. The diversity is pretty amazing, yeah. Yeah, definitely, definitely. So obviously, being in the driftless, you guys oversee a ton in all the different trout streams, I mean, we're spoiled rotten with how many, I don't envy you in trying to keep track of all those trout streams and maintain data on that and try and get to all those different spots. Because there are so many different creeks in the driftless.

13:23What are some of the projects that you and your team do on these trout streams? What are some of the things that like you guys focus on? Is it surveys? Is it restoration worth water sampling? Like what all goes into your role? And what are the things that you guys are looking at? Yeah, yeah, kind of all those things. So yeah, we basically are, you know, we do our surveys every year. We do, you know, roughly a hundred sites on trout streams. We've got about 36 where we sample them annually. And those are kind of on our most popular highest priority waters, like Timbercooley, Northport Bad Axe and Rush Creek, Plum Creek. These streams are really high quality populations and lots of angling. And that kind of annual data gives us an indication of how populations are changing over time, with changes in weather patterns and whatnot. We also use that data for evaluating like regulations and habitat changes too.

14:25But on top of that, we have, oh gosh, another like 40 to 60 sites that we do each year we rotate. And in all the watersheds in the four counties that we cover, we're on about eight to nine year rotation, where we hit each, we try to hit each water in those four counties, at least once every nine years. And so we focus in on a watershed. We survey all the streams and we, you know, pull all the data. And then we go back in our, you know, historical records. And we see how things compare to the past and see how, you know, what we're doing if, you know, if it's stocking or regulations or habitat, try to see how that is all doing. And then we make recommendations from that. So basically, all the sampling that we do every summer kind of drives all the other stuff that we do. So, you know, we could do those hundred sites. And then in the winter, we pull our data together and kind of see how what we've done in the past is working and what maybe we should do instead or how we should change things. So, yeah, you know, in terms of other work, you know,

15:28we develop and kind of plan our habitat projects. So, based on the information we have, you know, where do we, where would a habitat project be beneficial or where do we need to look at pursuing, you know, purchasing stream bank easements or, you know, land purchase opportunities or, you know, for public access and habitat. Otherwise, of course, like I mentioned, stocking. So, we don't have to do as much stocking. And we're, as I've been here in the past nine years, we've been able to slowly dial our stocking back further and further. But yeah, that's been, we've been able to do that and based on the information that we collect to help us understand, well, you know, shoot, we're running natural reproduction in a population that's sustained at like 2000 fish per mile. We don't need to put any fish in there. I mean, yeah, so stocking, regulation changes too, you know, those have been relatively stable since I've been here.

16:31But we made some small tweaks here and there is, you know, one of the things that have come up has been we've seen some brook trout decline. So, there are, we have a regulation where brook trout is catching at least a brown trout, you can, you know, harvest up to five fish. So, those, those types of things, you know, we, you know, so yeah, regulation, stocking, habitat, we also do a good amount outreach to every year. So, with different school groups, gosh, we must do, you know, maybe like eight to 10 demos every year. We go and do electrophishing demonstrations, get the kids all excited and then shock some fish and show them and yeah, it's always a lot of fun. But yeah, yeah, and otherwise on top of that, we, I tried to fit in some special projects. If there's like, you know, a question that comes up as we're, you know, doing our surveys or doing the work that we do and we don't have, you know, answers from the literature or from, you know, our research scientists and it's a manageable project. We try to take those on and answer those questions on our own too.

17:31So, yeah, we've done a couple over the years, you know, most recently looking at maybe brook trout and brown trout interactions and so yeah, it's, it's fun job. There's always something different. There's always, there could be three of me, I think and we would still be busy. Because the others there, yeah, there's a lot of water and just a huge, huge trout resource in these four counties. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. What is the key, I guess when you guys are going into these properties and stuff, what is like the, typically the main method of like, assessing things? Are you guys going in an electrophishing stretch? Are you guys going in? I'm assuming you're taking water samples as you're doing that maybe or like, what does that sort of check-in process look like for you guys? Yeah, yeah, so we we've been, we've got kind of a standard sampling method that we that we follow, that everyone in the state follows and for surveying trout, waitable trout streams in the state. So, yeah, it did really the biggest piece of information is the fish data.

18:34So, I mean, that really reflects what's going, I mean, that's the main piece that we're looking at, you know, what we want to know. But on top of that, we do collect, you know, so we do our electrophishing survey. So, like, you know, for those of you who aren't familiar, like, basically, we use electricity to temporarily sink past state the fish and allows us to scoop them up. We put them in a tub with some water, let them recover, we measure way, sometimes tag, check for parasites, all that sort of thing. And that all gets recorded. And we use a tablet now that goes directly into our statewide database. So, all the data we collect, you know, we can use it, but then also, you know, folks who are looking at statewide trends, they can pull our data too. But anyway, so, you know, we do our electrophishing surveys, we collect some basic water quality parameters over there, like the discharge of the stream, water clarity, dissolved oxygen levels, and conductivity

19:34and pH, just kind of basic water quality parameters that we collect to kind of help us get a picture of streams in our four counties and kind of understand how they're operating in their general health. So, yeah. Sure. What is, like, ideal, conditionally, if you were going to do like a water sample, right? Does it vary from stream to stream, maybe, or like, what do you guys look for? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there are these basic water quality parameters that we collect. Yeah, they vary quite a bit among the streams in our counties. But for trout, you know, we want to see dissolved oxygen levels over six milligrams per liter. I mean, when we rarely see anything lower than that, I mean, usually it's more like seven up to even super saturated in some of these streams where we have open canopy and lots of aquatic vegetation and lots of nutrients, like some of our timber coolies and whatnot. You know, you run a dissolved oxygen in summer and

20:35it's super saturated. It's like, you know, 14, 15 milligrams per liter, which is above the 100% oxygen saturation for that system. But yeah, otherwise, you know, the pH and the conductivity, those are kind of just giving us an indication of really they mostly reflect the bedrock geology. If there's, you know, some sort of issue with runoff or something like that, they might give us some, if it's extraordinarily high, it could give us an indication that something is going on, and we should investigate it further. But usually the variation that we see is due to the difference in bedrock geology that we have in the four counties. So like north of I 90, mostly sandstone bedrock, you know, if you, the first rock that you hit is kind of more of this sandstone, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't have, or when it's eroded, it doesn't result in all these ions and ending up in the water. Like you'd have with your doula stone or your limestone bedrock that you

21:38have kind of south of I 90 and Vernon, Vernon, Crawford counties, and southern portion of lacrosse. So the, you know, the conductivity in those waters are often much higher than those in the north. Yeah, they're just, it's interesting that the two streams, you know, divided by that kind of I 90 line, or the streams north of there are very different kind of stream shape, the kind of more stained waters, lower productivity, lower trout numbers, just naturally. And then as you get to the south of that kind of doula stone, limestone bedrock geology, those streams can be extremely productive where we get our, you know, thousand to sometimes four thousand five thousand adult fish per mile, you know, so crazy. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you mentioned like the conductivity there, like that has to do with the type of stone that is basically lining the stream bed. Yeah, yep. So that's, you know, like the, the gravels and stuff that are all, you know,

22:38those are all eroded from those bluffs and the bedrock that's, you know, in that watershed. And those, you know, eventually, you know, break down over time and, you know, the ions are released into the water. So calcium, calcium carbonate, you know, from your limestones and whatnot. So that increases the conductivity. So, but yeah, any dissolved ion in the water would increase conductivity. So like if, you know, I, if you were to see like a really, really high rating, it could be because of agriculture runoff to, you know, outside of, okay, sure, the standard, yep, but generally when we're sampling our streams, it's an indication of what the bedrock geology is like because, yeah. Yeah. On that note of runoff and stuff, like say you do have a, I feel like most time when we're thinking about trout streams runoff is looked at in like a negative connotation. But if you do have that where it runs off and it increases the conductivity, is that potentially beneficial to the stream? Or is it still more so you'd rather have it naturally

23:39through? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, excess nutrients entering the system is bad. We've got plenty of natural, you know, natural productivity in these stream systems where, you know, additional runoff from say, you know, farm fields and maneuver that sort of thing. It's generally not a good thing. You know, you can have basically it cooks and, you know, it gets the material settling out on the bottom of the stream and that bacteria and we'll break it down and use up the dissolved oxygen and then you don't have oxygen for trout. Yeah. I mean, otherwise, you know, if we, you know, you might have runoff that happens in the spring and if there's not a lot of say, you know, organic material manure or particular, that sort of thing that runs into the stream. It may be dirty looking, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's rich in, you know, organics and it's going to drive the dissolved oxygen down. In fact, you know, when you get a lot

24:40of runoff rainfall, then often your, your conductivity can be lower because you've got, you know, a lot of, basically, dilution, a lot of dilution. So yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. I figured yeah, usually it's, usually it's no good, but yeah. So I guess what kind of classifies or not classifies, but like what makes you guys decide when looking at a project? It sounded like earlier when you mentioned, like it has to do with like what are the most high traffic waterways that kind of determine when you make those rounds and everything. But when it comes to actually doing like the restoration side of things and rebuilding banks, looking at erosion and stuff like that, at what point do you guys start looking at it and think, okay, I'm going to step in and we need to address this ASAP. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's a good question. And, you know, basically, you know, the first step is identifying that needs to be done. So we try to use our,

25:42the data that we collect, you know, from our surveys to guide, you know, where the first step, where do we need to do habitat work? Where is the, where are the population? Where do we see adult abundances that are, you know, not really occupying what could be there? You know, we're, where do we see potential for improvement by doing the habitat project, you know? And so that's kind of a big step figuring that out. And so, you know, we kind of use our data to do that. But then the other big pieces of the puzzle, especially now we kind of, you know, we have less staff and time and funds to do work. The other big pieces of the puzzle can be, well, one, all the work that we do has to be on public access lands where there's perpetual public access. So we, we purchase stream bank easements currently. So perpetual stream bank easements, we can, we can purchase if the landowner is willing. Otherwise, if there's, you know, state-owned land or like,

26:47another, like, county easement where it's perpetual, then that type of thing we could do work on. Within its partners, big thing is partners having, you know, people help with putting together a plan, a design, you know, we work closely with them. But, you know, we're a, you know, short, lack of time, lack of staff, lack of funds. So we try to find those projects where we can get help and where there's people are excited about helping make something happen and can help produce the costs and reduce our time having to put together projects. So yeah, kind of a lot of different pieces that we, you know, basically come together for us to have time and, you know, money and et cetera to get to make a project happen. Yeah, for sure. When purchasing those easements is that done with like Noles Nelson funding? Yep. Yep. Yeah, so that's all done with Noles Nelson. Yeah, yeah, so that's, that's been a really enjoyable part of my job since I've been here. It's not something I had, not opportunity to do in the past and like being able to, you know, go

27:53talk to land owners, tell them about what we do and get them excited and, you know, then we have funding, you know, we had funding to, or have funding to purchase these easements in perpetuity. It's like, all right, there's something I can do that's going to stick, you know, so it's totally done really a very special program for sure. Totally. You mentioned to bring it in some other organizations. I'm assuming like I know Trout Unlimited helps out with a bunch of stuff. I mean, you look at the gas at here and you can see or the map of improved trout waters, whatever, and there's all the like TU project dates and easements and stuff. How does, I guess, what does the relationship look like working with them and how do you guys kind of determine who does what? Yeah, yeah. So Trout Unlimited is a huge partner for sure. We have local chapters that we work with and then there's the Driftless Area Restoration Initiative through Trout Unlimited as well. And so they've got staff that have helped with a lot of different projects. But, you know, for like example, got different projects. We're looking to line up on the West Ford Kickipu River

28:57where, you know, the Trout Unlimited dare staff, they're able to help move things along in terms of the permitting end of things, the floodplain zoning, getting the design together. And oftentimes, you know, what we do is, you know, they're able to kind of help with that end of things. And then we can provide our, you know, we have a habitat crew. It's kind of limited in what we can do, because we've got a big area to cover. But we've got a crew. And so, you know, they can cover that and then we can come in and, you know, do the actual work, with based on the plans that they were able to put together and all that leg work. So that can work out really well. Otherwise, yeah, I mean, the local chapters, we have local chapter here, Cooley, Cooley TU. And yeah, they've been really, you know, they're really great to work with too. And volunteering on, you know, electrophishing days. And we're also, seem like a common theme chart staff. But we, we've basically been operating with, you know, like two or so myself, another fisheries biologist and a halftime LTE. And, you know, we pretty

30:02much needed three piece, three person crew to do a lot of our sampling. So they've been a big help, you know, different folks have come out and helped us from that, from that chapter during our surveys. And we've done some tree planting too, trying to get some shade trees in certain areas established, thinking about air temperatures increasing in the future. So, yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, TUs definitely have been a big, big help with the work that we do in the habitat restoration work we do on the streams. It's, yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, I've got Mike's contact info sitting here that I'm hoping to get him on later this spring to kind of talk about their side of the, you know, just their work and what they're doing across the state. And everything there as well. Yeah, that's awesome to hear that they're a great partner and able to help kind of lighten the load a little bit for you guys and especially help out with, you know, the electro fishing and stuff like that. I mean, I had bodies in college down at Plattville who would intern with them and then he'd shock a stream and send me pictures of all these fish they

31:04pulled out that day and would go there that night and be like, oh, we got a fire like we know it's good now. Yeah, we got our butts kicked and built that. Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, that's, yeah, that's, it's always humbling when you do electro fishing survey on these streams. It's like how is it possible that there are these fit? I mean, you even walk the banks and it's like, okay, you see a few fish starting around, but once you stick the electricity in there, it's, it's, it's just stunning how many trout can be in these little streams and then you go fish it and it's like, okay, catch five, which is fun, but I know there's 150 in this, you know, 200 yard reach, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. We're going to circle back to the electro fishing stuff in a bit there, but on the note of like restoration work and everything, you mentioned kind of the warming temperature, temperature trend and everything. Are there any other trends that you guys are seeing on these trout streams that you guys are trying to kind of prepare for? Hey guys, I just wanted to take a quick sec to tell you about lone wolf custom gear.

32:05lone wolf custom gear is as good as eight gets when it comes to mobile hunting equipment. Whether you're a saddle or stand guy, public land or private, lone wolf custom gear has a set of sticks, a stand, a camera arm and any number of accessories to get you closer to your target buck. To make it even better, everything is 100% USA sourced and made right here in the Midwest and it's even assembled right across the river in Iowa by hunters who love chasing deer just as much as you do. To build your kit today, go visit lonewolfcustomgear.com. Now let's get back to the episode. Yeah, no, I mean the the air temperature thing is a big, a big one right now. So you know, we've seen average annual air temperatures in the area. No, not not even just projected to increase. We've the data's already shown it's increasing. So it's already happening. On top of that, we've got average annual increases in precipitation as well, which is maybe a good thing in some ways and maybe end the bad thing in other ways. So, you know, with increasing air temperatures, that's obviously big concern because

33:10trout need cold water to survive, right? So our, you know, brook trout, brown trout, when water temps are, you know, reaching up into the 70s, they're getting stressed and once it gets close to 80, they're pretty much dying. So we need those cold, those cool temperatures and when air temperature increases, while the water temperature follows suit. With climate change and this increase in air temperature and coupled with the increase in precipitation, one of the kind of positives, I guess we've seen is that despite air temperature increasing, our base flows over a longer period have been increasing. So when I say base flow, I mean, the amount of groundwater coming into a stream. So although air temperatures are increasing, our water temperatures have been relatively stable on these driftless streams so far, which is, you know, a big relief. They seem to be, you know, somewhat resilient to this increase in air time because we seem to be getting more precipitation reaching the groundwater

34:11and feeding these streams. So yeah, like, I mean, if you look at, there's some long-term data, like in the Coon Creek watershed, where they've got groundwater monitoring wells that go back to the 19, I think it's 20s or 30s. And yeah, it's wild. And so you can see the increase in the groundwater level from then to now is just, it's stunning. But even in the past 25 years, the level of increase in groundwater level is pretty noticeable and it's, you know, it's gone up a good amount. So this is hopefully helping buffer some of those air temperature increases. If that will persist, you know, I don't know, but that's been one kind of good sign, at least for the driftless in terms of climate change. But yeah, in terms of what we're doing, you know, thinking about air temperature increases in the future, we had a big push to try to do some more sort of targeted tree planting to create shade. Of course, you know, shaded streams are not

35:15warming as quickly as open canopy streams. So we're trying to find places where we can create shade that where we'll have an impact. And so we're trying to do it in a sort of targeted way, finding these open canopy reaches with the right sort of orientation. So, you know, we're actually in planting on the south side of the bank and trying to think about it a little bit as we're doing these plantings. We're also thinking about angler access as we're doing these plantings because we don't want a greatest situation where we make it big shrubby stream that nobody can fish. And well, our job is to make fishing better. So another thing where, you know, as we're doing this, we're considering the trees we're planting and, you know, like swamp white oak and maybe some cottonwoods for some shade in the earlier stages. But also maintaining vegetation in the future, you know, as things grow up using, you know, our Ficon, you know, doing some brushing to make sure we still have angler access as we're getting more shade,

36:19you know, kind of hoping for more of a savanna type situation, you know, where we've got open understory where it's easy to walk and fish. But this canopy that can help the shade things. So it might be, it's going to definitely take some work. But, yeah, I think that'll hopefully help things out. But yeah, yeah. Otherwise, other trends, you know, again, with climate change, we've seen those big, those big floods happening in recent years. So we've had a couple of 500 year, you know, flood events in the past 20, 30 years. So, you know, one was like 2008, another one in 2018, like 10 years apart. And that 2018 one was pretty bad. It hit a lot of the habitat work that had been done in the past. And the Coon Creek watershed and North Fork, the bad acts, the West Forkikapoo, some of our premier waters, some of the old habitat work that had been

37:19done and got damaged pretty bad. Certain areas held up well, but certain areas really got hit hard. And so, you know, that's, that's a big concern if we continue to see, you know, fortunately, since that 2018 flood, we haven't had anything massive. So like a lot of these streams have been able to recover even in places where we haven't been able to go in and do habitat work. Where just vegetation grows up on the banks, stabilizes things, the stream kind of narrow on its own naturally as long as there aren't any major floods. And then that habitat begins to improve again, you get your riffle pool run instead of a big wide flat that was blasted out during a flood. So fortunately, we've since 2018, it's been pretty stable. So a lot of that habitat has improved quite a bit. But yeah, those floods are pretty rough. And so hopefully, hopefully we don't see any of those in the near future. But, you know, it's likely that we that we will. How much variants do you see, I guess, in say there's a stretch of creek river that

38:26has more of like that kind of savannah, like you were talking about, those prairie grasses, deep reefed systems, kind of that buffer around the water. How much better do you see those hold up? And even like maintain cooler temperatures as opposed to areas where there's crop land or maybe it's all trees or whatever it may be. Yeah. Yeah, quite a bit better. So like during that 2018 flood, we had, you know, I've got in the Coon Creek watershed, which is kind of our crown jewel, the four counties, a long history there. Lots of habitat work and easement and lands. I walked many miles of stream after that flood, just kind of documenting the extent of the impact and where, you know, we might have to do work in the future. And, um, yeah, you could definitely, there were definitely patterns. Places where there was thick, you know, ungrazed kind of savannah type situation, yet thick vegetation and some trees mixed in, those places did really well. Also places where it was a good floodplain connection, you know,

39:30that that's key to places that really got hit where we're heavily, might say moderately, to heavily grazed. You know, those banks, the vegetation just didn't hold the banks as well. Otherwise, you know, some of those boxelder forested reaches to, those are, you know, pretty weeklyverted trees and the banks, but also the banks in combination with high banks, usually where those boxelder are growing. I had a lot of changes in the stream in the stream there, but yeah, it seemed like those areas where you had better, better buffers, better, you know, vegetation growing. They really held up, you know, I mean, there were some places like, gosh, our property on the lower end of Timbercooli. We have state property there. It's a kind of, it's kind of what we're describing this savanna, you know, prairie, prairie plants and some trees and willows a little bit mixed in, but that it was like, there wasn't a single thing damaged.

40:31It looked fine. Other places as we went upstream, you know, they're, you know, maybe heavily grazed or moderately grazed pasture and those banks really got really got hit. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Do you see much temperature variance in those like deep, you know, the more savanna buffery, obviously has to do with like how close are you to spring head, how far up in the system are you and stuff, but like, I don't know, I'm only asking because I had a guy who's up on your neck of the woods who does a whitetail property management. He was asked, he had a client who was inquiring about whether or not that prairie grass made that big of a difference on the temperature front with waters, which I thought maybe it would with the taller grasses as they kind of shade or you know, shade half the creek, but I wasn't sure if you guys had any data on that. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I have a little bit of data and it's kind of related on some of our habitat projects. Yeah, where yeah, I mean, having the more open canopy, that stream will warm more

41:32rapidly. And I can also say, you know, we put out temperature loggers, at least it does on every watershed we do. And you can kind of see, I mean, of course, there's springs and stuff. You know, there's a lot of thermal variation as you have different spring inputs and whatnot, but just a general pattern seems to be those really wide open canopy without much thick vegetation, those seem to warm up quicker than those where you've got, you know, either trees or you've got, you know, mixes of anti-type situation like you're talking about with prairie grasses and narrow stream channel and that sort of thing. So yeah, not super solid data, but you know, kind of, and you know, what I've seen, you know, just with our temperature data seems to point that direction. Yeah, yeah, for sure, canopy and yeah, I'm sure hopefully it hugs the whatever bluff or hillside or razor rubber and how much shade it can get throughout the day. I'm sure that plays. Yeah, there's a lot of variables when you stare right. Yeah, definitely. On the note of trends there, we've obviously had a pretty large increase in angular numbers

42:35in the last five years or so. Have you guys seen any real impacts from that increased fishing, higher fish mortuary, variances in, you know, where fish are in a system? Like do you see them kind of push up or down through a system that might be easemented versus not easemented? Um, higher erosion, I don't know what kind of stuff you guys in there. Yeah, no good question. Um, you know, when you look at like our Wisconsin trout stamp sales, they're relatively stable, but I think there is something to your to your point because I, you know, we don't necessarily have area-specific trout stamp sale numbers. And I tend to think, you know, based on my observations and just in the time I've been here that yeah, I sense COVID, there's been a big uptick in, in pressures. Yeah, I'm just thinking, personally, spots I would, you know, fish in the past, you know, they'd be for sure spots I knew I could go out and fish on my own. I'd go out, somebody's fishing here, I guess the next spot,

43:36all right? But yeah, in terms of the impacts on, you know, with more pressure on some of these dreams, um, potential impacts, not really seeing, you know, the fish are still there. We're not seeing, you know, declines in fish numbers or anything from our trend surveys, you know, that where we survey annually are most popular streams. Um, if anything, trout densities have increased on some streams or remain stable on others. Um, yeah, so I mean, maybe one thing that might, you know, this is just kind of speculating, but, um, catchability may be affected as, you know, you have more anglers having, you know, just based on my personal angling experience, you know, the areas where you've got a lot of pressure, those fish seem to be smarter, you know, so they, you know, though they're still there, man, they can be, they can be really difficult to catch, especially when they're getting fished every day. Um, and then yeah, like I say, you get upstream, maybe you're walking in the stream off easement and you find a pool and all of a sudden it's like,

44:38oh, wow, these, these fish are dumb. This is great. Uh, so yeah, yeah, there's, there's probably something to that, but in terms of actual fish population, um, densities as we, as there's been more, you know, pressure on certain streams, we haven't seen any, you know, declines in population numbers. I think a big part of that is the prevalence of, you know, catching release. So most, most people fishing, there's a, you know, high percent, we've done some Creole surveys too, and it's, you know, gosh, if it's like up in the 70s, 80% that are, you know, doing catching release, um, pretty much exclusively. So there's not, there's not a lot of harvest, there's not as much harvest as, as there, there could be if people decided to do. Yeah, definitely. Well, I mean, on that note, too, this will be the first year that we opened the harvest season a month earlier on April 1st, right? Mm-hmm. Yep. Do you guys, do you expect to see a whole lot of increase like aside from, I personally, I don't think it's going to make a whole lot of a difference, but I think what your thoughts are. Yeah, yeah. So it's a statewide opener for Saturday and April

45:44this year. And yeah, that'll be, it'll be interesting. I think I'm going to run out and do a, quick Creole survey where I've done one in the past. I'm just to see how things compare to the opener on, you know, the typical May opener in the past years. But yeah, I don't think, you know, in terms of population numbers and not really, you know, we don't have any concerns in terms of, you know, potential increases and harvest on the streams that I cover. With densities being so high, populations being relatively stable. Yeah, I mean, I think one of the ideas behind, but behind expanding it, too, was to kind of increase opportunities for people to go out and fish and get people excited about trout fishing. So with, you know, the current opener and if you're up north, it overlaps with, you know, you got to decide, you know, for some people who are just opening weekend anglers and you got to decide, all right, I might go wildlife fishing or I'm going to go trout fishing, you know, that's where I grew up, northern Wisconsin, that was off in the thing. So I think one of the ideas

46:47behind it was kind of give trout fishing its own opener and get people excited about getting out and yeah, and join the resource. So yeah, in terms of impacts here on the streams I cover, I, you know, there's no indication that we'll see any, any negative impacts from a, on populations and from this, from potential increases and harvest. Yeah, for sure. What role, if any, like any of your guys as a research do anglers, guides, you mentioned like the Creole surveys and stuff there, like what, I guess, how much are you looking at like the general angling population, maybe be fly shops or bait and tackle shops and stuff when it comes to the trout stuff, like are you guys gathering any data from them? Yeah, yeah, I know, that's that's a good question. So we do, we've done some Creole surveys in the past. So Creole survey is, you know, like what you probably expect that it is, you know, we have a couple staff that go

47:49out and interview anglers and count cars and figure out how much pressure there is and how many fish are getting harvested. And so we've done a couple of those over the years since I've been here. So that's the main way of getting information on angler use and pressure and harvest. And on top of those, you know, in addition to those Creole surveys, well, we're out there with the ones that I've done. We also ask if, you know, the people we survey are willing to do kind of an optional questionnaire. And so we've got some additional questions with more in depth about, you know, kind of how their feelings are towards the different opportunities and regulation opportunities and habitat and all those sorts of things. Any question that we, that we want to, that we think of that needs, you know, we think will be valuable to be answered. But yeah, in terms of, you know, information from from guides and whatnot, I'd say it's mostly just when we have a chance to, when I run into a guide

48:50or, you know, we stop in the fly shop and chat, that's mostly how we, or sometimes corresponding through emails, that's mostly how we, how we exchange information and get a, I can get a feel for, you know, what they're seeing. But yeah, and I mean, and guides and avid anglers, I mean, definitely haven't touched with that, you know, people who fish a lot, you know, they're, they're always, they're always out there and making observations. Maybe there's things that have come up on an easement or issues with habitat and they're, they're always in touch with me too. So, you know, that information they provide can be really valuable sometimes, you know, known what's going on out there. So, yeah, I think there's always opportunities to do more, it's just, yeah, because people who are out there a lot, they can really, you know, have insights that we, we can't, you know, it's a big area. Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. On the note of trends, are there any like aquatic insect trends that you guys are seeing,

49:51like increases, decreases of various species or anything like that? Is there anything you guys are seeing on the food side of things? Yeah, you know, we don't do a lot of, in terms of fisheries specifically, we don't do any invertebrate sampling. There is a separate branch within the DNR that does water quality sampling, and so they sample invertebrates as part of that. I haven't heard from them that there have been any trends in the data that they've collected. I have heard a lot of anecdotes over the, you know, since I've been here in La Crosse, though, from anglers that they've seen declines and hatches. And then, well, when I first was here, it seemed like there's big declines and hatches, at least based on what anglers were saying, and like, Mayfly, Catusfly, hatches. And then maybe these floods kind of made that worse, but then some anglers I've heard recently saying, you know, the hatches have been a little better, maybe as, you know, we've gotten further away from those really bad floods. But then other people, you know, it's, so yeah, not to answer

50:54your question, we don't have great data, at least fisheries, doesn't, and haven't seen any trends in the data from water quality in terms of those. But anglers, yeah, certainly they have heard a lot of different observations from them. Yeah, no, I'm right there with it. It's all benign anecdotal, and I I personally haven't seen a whole lot of change. I mean, maybe a little bit, but it's anything, it almost seems kind of circling back to like the climate change side of things. You get more sunny days, the hatches in general are going to kind of be a little bit lower. But I've seen less like total banner day, like all day great hatch, like it was just you couldn't keep the fish away from them. And more so, it's like, oh, here's a giant cloud that rolls through and pops off this little five minute micro hatch. And then after that, it like shuts back down. Okay, great, we'll just wait for the next cloud, I guess. And yeah, right. So I think that's, but I have like

51:56ran into a handful of folks all over the place around the drifles who are like, well, the bugs don't hash like they used to. There's too many chemicals, there's too many which I wrote down. I always thought like, I mean, it makes sense if you're putting pesticides on the ground that it would make its way into the watershed. I mean, just about everything does, but I wasn't sure if there was actual data on that or not. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there may be, you know, stuff that I'm just not familiar with. I know there's a lot of work going on in some of the pesticide realm. But, uh, yeah, I mean, yeah, just in terms of my personal observations, do you like your saying, I do remember, well, I mean, it's always one year out there fishing. No, I have a three year old, so I don't get fishing nearly as much as I used to. But, um, yeah, I got to, I remember some just amazing cadets fly hatches fishing when I first moved here and I haven't hit one quite as good as those first couple of years since then. But, you know, it's those in memory too, you know, yeah, right. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Was it, was it actually that thing or was it just everything was clicking

52:58right? Yeah. Yeah, totally. Um, you know, we've talked a lot about flooding and, you know, a lot of high water volume kind of having a toy with the stream bed with the with erosion and stuff like that. Is there much fish kill during those crazy high water events? Yeah, that's a good question. And I get a lot of people do ask about that too. And it's, it is amazing, like, you know, after these massive floods, how few fish die. But, yeah, so we do see some fish, you know, so you often hear like, oh, they're all, you know, they're dead out in the corn field. And that does happen. For sure. Like, we've seen it, you know, where we get a big flash flood and, yeah, there's some dead brown trout out in the corn field or whatever. But the vast majority of fish seem to be able to hunker down and just make it through those floods. Um, so like, for example, that 2018 flood, where, you know, it hit the Coon Creek system with like 12 inches of rain and, and uh, late August,

54:01really September, we had just done a survey before that flood. Um, on Timbercooly Creek. And it was just, you know, smoked by that flood. And we came back, you know, after water levels eventually went back down and resurveyed it. And it was like, yeah, we saw a little decline in the numbers of young at the year. Um, you know, the smaller, you know, about three and a half to four inches. But the adult population was pretty much the same. So it's just, they must just be able to find, you know, areas near the bottom of the stream where the velocity isn't as high. And they, they make it through. So it's amazing. Right. Yeah. That was going to be my next question. It's like, have you guys pinpointed like through shocking or anything? If you have shocked, obviously, there's, you know, safety component. Yeah. But like, yeah, I've been figured out through electroficing, like, where they go or they just talk. I mean, I write there with you. I assume they just glued to the bottom and, you know, found somewhere that all that fast water can run over their heads. And yeah, they just waited out. But yeah, yeah, I don't, I don't know of anyone that's,

55:04that's tried to look at that. But yeah, I, such a challenge to try to sample in those conditions. But yeah, I mean, yeah, just, just speculating you would think, yeah, they must be fine spots where there's a, you know, tucking behind, you know, a road tree route or, you know, where you just near the bottom, you got a bolder little lower velocities down there. So yeah. Yeah, for sure. On the note of, uh, that was, I remembered my question. On the note of stream bank, uh, or not stream bank, but just like general habitat quality. Is there very much variance between the public access stuff? Obviously, you guys are able to do more restoration work and have an actual like physical impact on it. But do you tend to see much variance in, I mean, you mentioned to like fish, just the amount of pressure and how smart they are on public waters versus, you know, the stream beds public, but it's a non-esmented section of string. Are there any other major differences that you guys tend to see when surveying

56:07for lack of a better term, the private stretches of our streams, like do you tend to see a higher density, do you tend to see higher quality, anything like that? Yeah, that's a good question. I can't say that I, that I've, you know, just being out there on the surveys that I've noticed any substantial difference. You know, one thing I would say is where we have, you know, really good intact habitat work, you can have just astronomical adult trout densities that you might not see on a stretch. That's not quite, that doesn't have quite as much habitat diversity. But yeah, it's hard to say because, gosh, I've done surveys where there's not habitat work on, you know, certain streams and, you know, private banks or whatever, and just numbers are off the charts too. So, yeah, it's, yeah, no real substantial pattern that I can, I can think of, you know,

57:09besides maybe angling, you know, thinking, walking, walking the stream, and yeah, sometimes you get away from an easement, you're staying in the stream, and all of a sudden the fishing gets better, not as many people walking up there. Right. Yeah, you found that one big plunge pool, and it happens to hold a bunch of different fish. But like if you said there too about the restoration work and the features that you guys are putting in, being kind of a, and a more adult trout magnet, and like the amount of adults that will gravitate towards that, whether it be like the, the longer structure tucked into the banks or the, you know, the root wads and stuff that are tucked in there, and everything. That's definitely encouraging, good for folks to know. On that note, when it comes to adult trout, some of our larger trout and everything, I have to ask through all of your electro surveys in the drift list, what is the largest brown trout that you've caught? Yeah. Yeah. That's a good question. I just around 25, 26 somewhere in there. Yeah. Rose.

58:22That's awesome. Yeah, we've had a couple right in that range, nothing over 26 for sure, but in that 25 to 26 entrains, we've had a couple for sure. Sure. But yeah, yeah, just different, different creatures when they get that big, those brown trout. Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely, definitely. What was the, like, what type of water was it? Are we talking like bigger water? Was it surprising? We narrow, like when folks start thinking going into big, fresh brain here a little bit. Yeah, yeah. What are some of the commonalities you see or the common traits that you see with these larger fish? Yeah, yeah. So in terms of like big fish water, usually, it's typically it's kind of those, you get to the lower ends of the systems. Sometimes it might even be seasonally utilized by trout where it actually gets too warm in the late summer and they're not even in there. But yeah, usually these lower portions of the system where the forage is there. There's lots of

59:26warm water. As you get in from cold water down to more warm water conditions, you get a lot more different forage variety in terms of, you know, your, your days and your quick chubs and your shiners and crayfish. So those seem to tend to be the places we see those bigger, bigger trout. With that said, we still do see big trout on those, you know, kind of upper reaches, you know, those, you know, kind of middle upper reaches with the cold water and mostly trout and some sculpting and stuff. Every once in a while, you'll be shocking a pool and it's kind of your typical standards, you know, okay, you get a, you get a bowl bunch, you know, nine to 12 inches, maybe a few 14s and a 15 or whatever. And then all of a sudden, like, there's a 22 or something up there, you know. So yeah, every once in a while, there's, there's giants up there too. But yeah, it's saying the whole probably it's more that that kind of bigger water, kind of more marginal. I guess I've seen it too on kind of a medium-sized stream that had, that didn't have as much cold water

1:00:30coming in, where it transitioned to that kind of more marginal is catching, you know, we're catching creek chubs and whatnot and then finding some big trout in this more medium-sized water. But it was, you know, more marginally, more marginal thermally for trout seems to be where those, those bigger fish tend to be. Sure. Yeah. No, that's okay. I'm glad my theory held true. I was out. Out on Friday, I was kind of prospecting one of these lower stretches of a of a creek and everything where it flows into a little bit bigger water because I kind of thought like I bet they pushed down looking for bigger food. And I hooked a fish, but I only saw basically the bottom of its jaw. And I thought based on like the gill flair, and I was like, oh, that's kind of funky. It looked like a small mouth. Like, I'll take a small mouth in February. That's cool, whatever. And I threw it back in there in my next cast. I mean, it ate a fly that was half its size, but I caught like a 10-inch trout. And I was like, oh, my God. That wasn't a small mouth.

1:01:36That sucks it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But when they do move up, so going from those lower stretches and stuff, is it primarily, I mean, it's got to be a combination, obviously, of like food availability, how much forage they have, and also, you know, being cool enough to sustain them and keep them alive. You tend to see them kind of push from those lower stretches, and then as it gets hotter, push way up into the headwaters, kind of near the closer to the spring head sort of, or they just kind of go as far up as they need to, and that's about it. Yeah. That's a good question. That's when I'm not sure what the answer is to, and it's kind of one where we're planning, well, it is one where we're planning on looking into this coming spring. We're actually putting tags, VHF tags, radio tags, and about 20, 25 big brown trout that we're going to sample on one of the

1:02:37larger, lower ends of the larger system in spring, and kind of see where they're going, you know, because the question is, like, are they contributing to the fisheries and the way headwaters, or are they just going up a little bit, and finding these little cold water inflows, and maybe still just hanging out, you know, nearby, or are they making big movements? Sure. Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. And one that I'm curious about myself, and I, yeah, so I mean, it could kind of inform, you know, like, hey, you know, these lower areas, if, you know, these fish are moving up, contributing to these really popular fisheries, way upstream, well, you know, maybe these lower areas are actually pretty important to produce those big fish, so maybe we should do, you know, easement purchases, or habitat work, or whatnot, you know. So, yeah, I'll be curious to see what that reveals. I'm kind of, yeah, should be fun. Our tags too, and that we're getting, they send back, you know, it's kind of your standard, you know, like, if you've seen tracking studies with like wolves and elk and whatnot, you know,

1:03:38where they got the antennas, same sort of thing, but these tags will also be sending back temperature information, so it'll be really interesting to see what conditions the fish are experiencing versus, you know, the overall, so are they finding these little areas where it's colder in these overall warmer systems, you know, so yeah, it should be fun. That's super cool. Oh, is that going to be, that little have to be a published study, right? Yeah, all that's going to be the coolest thing ever. I can't wait for that. That's awesome. So when you say contribute to the fishery, like these bigger fish, do you mean like they're going all the way up to spawn and do that sort of thing, like contributing that way, or chilling, they're not just hanging out in the back and getting fat, they're actually actively participating in the population, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I mean, both, bringing their, you know, dropping their eggs and up there in the headwaters and contributing to the fishery that way, but also like, you know, like I said before, we occasionally see these

1:04:40big brown trout in the upper reaches, where otherwise you've got a mostly kind of medium size structure population, you know, maybe get a 1415, but everyone's going to get this 20 incher. Is that, you know, is that fish actually a fish that's spending a portion of its time down river, or is that a fish that's just somehow finding a way to get big in these systems, these higher density systems, where the average maximum size is smaller or so. Sure. Yeah, no, that's been a working theory of mine as well. It's like these fish just find a spot that they figured out, like I get all the food I need here, this temperature stake fairly consistent. I have enough shade and cover that I can tuck up under this undercut or whatever it may be, and I just live in this, this, you know, whatever it may be, whether it be a 50 yard stretch or, you know, this bend or whatever, because we, we did, with a couple clients last year, catch the same fish more than once, and I was like, super excited. I was like, oh, sweet, like this is the same,

1:05:40like he ate it about 10 feet further back the last time. So that's kind of cool that he did the same thing. Have you guys shocked the any of the same fish more than once in your studies? Yeah, yeah, we, yeah, we definitely have. So on our trend surveys, we tag about 25 fish at each of our sites. So we do gosh, three to five sites per trend stream. And what do we do, like six or seven trend streams? So we put a lot, put a quite a few tags, and these are pit tags are kind of like about the size of a grain of rice. We use a needle to put the tag and kind of near its pelvic fin. And then same thing is like those tags that you get in your dog, you know, you scan it with a wand, you get the specific idea and stuff. But anyway, yeah, to answer your question, yeah, we've seen, you know, in those trend reaches, it's pretty interesting. It seems like based on our pit tags that, in our returns where we get those, that's the brown trout we're sampling and

1:06:41resampling, no recapturing are kind of living in a pretty small area. So like on one of our sites, we pretty much get all of our tags out in the first 50 meters because we get so many fish. And in years that we followed up and, you know, resampled in the following summer year after year, it seems like all of the recaptures that we get, even though we do 150 meter long stretch, all those recaptures are in the first 50 meters. So it's like some of these fish just really like the place where they're living, I guess. But yeah, otherwise we've handled fish, you know, up to four or five times. It's pretty interesting, you know, like the variation in growth and size, I imagine it's probably like sex specific with like, you know, males, typically, like you see in other fish populations, two males, you know, maybe maturing a little bit earlier and then just kind of leveling out, maybe some females growing a little bit, growing a little bit larger quicker. But anyway,

1:07:42yeah, so maybe there's this variation too in terms of like, you know, prey availability and dominance hierarchies too because, you know, trout within pools, they have these dominance hierarchies where, you know, one fish can kind of dominate the most optimal spot where it gets the most food with the least amount of work. So imagine growth might be way faster in that fish than the others. But anyway, so we've got some fish where like, you know, they might just top out at like 12 inches, you know, and that's basically where they're at. And we've had fish, you know, like where we even recapture them the following year, they're the same length at like 12.5 or something, you know, sure. And then others where it's like, you know, they're one year, they're going 16 to seven, they grew like an inch between 16 and 17, you know, inches. And yeah, yeah, so yeah, the tagging stuff has really, really been interesting and kind of useful. Yeah, that's fascinating. There's not just like a steady growth rate for any fish. It's totally dependent on what they're, I guess,

1:08:42demeanor is in the pool. That's fascinating. I love that. I imagine those are the, those are the fish that we see at the bunch of little like pink spots on their lips. And, you know, yeah, yeah, that's super cool, man. So on the note then of shocking streams where they're fish are sitting and everything, what's the most surprising spot that you, not like a geographic pin, but like, where's the spot like something where you've been shocking a stream and you've been like, how did that fish come out of there? Or like, I would not have, I'm sure at this point, you're like, yeah, should be one there, should be one there, but yeah, what's the most surprising spot they've come from? Yeah, I mean, some of the super, super tiny water always sounds me like what can be in there. So I mean, it's like, you might have a flow where it's just a trickle. It's less than a CFS. And there's these little ripples and again, some wild eyes,

1:09:48and all, you know, then there's a pool, you know, and it's like, okay, you know, maybe we see a couple of delts and it's like some giant 18-incher is in this tiny little stream. It's like, you must just be living in that pool, you know, because like his back would be sticking out of the water if he swam up the ripples, you know, so yeah, some of those tiny streams are impressive, like, yeah, they're just, they're fine in there and it's good enough for them to live and grow, and so they're there there. Yeah, otherwise, yeah, I just try to think anything else is really, but yeah, that's probably the biggest one. Yeah, sure. I like that. That's super cool. How many more fish, in general, you've talked about just like the shocking densities that you've seen over your time, electro fishing and everything? Like, how many more fish, typically, are tucked up under that undercut, then people think that they just like walk over or anything, because like, I've stuck my leg back under those a couple of times, chained to retrieve flies, or whatever it may be, and like, gone up to my hip and not been able to touch the back of it,

1:10:52and just been astounded by how deep those undercuts go. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's, well, you know, electro fishing, I think what happens is a lot of times, too, is they kind of, you push them into those areas, so we really do get them out of those undercuts, you know. So like, when we're electro fishing, where we get the fish, might not necessarily be the exact spot where they were hanging out, but they, yeah, when we hit, like, if there's a big undercut, in a productive stream, gosh, we might be, you know, I think people would be, would be stunned. We've got a few, you know, GoPro videos on our really productive waters, where it's like, we're just sitting there, you know, just sitting there in this one undercut for five minutes, just dipping, dipping, dipping, dipping, oh, passing the fish, my arm is sore, you know, like, our tub is getting over full of brown, we got somebody in the back putting water in there, you know, trying to keep them, trying to keep it more water than fish, you know, so it's like,

1:11:54yeah, it can be silly, the numbers and some of these, yeah. They're not all like that, but the most productive ones are just, yeah, it's like, how is it possible that this amount of water can produce this much fish biomass, you know, so, right, I've been impressed for sure, shocked, even when we deal with that. Yeah, that's super cool. Yeah, um, talk to me a little bit about tiger trout. Hmm. Have you guys seen any population trends with them? Like, are there, is it, I've heard, it's like the one in a thousand, typically or whatever, is that accurate? Do you think it's higher or lower? What have you seen? Yeah, yeah, I'd say tigers are maybe, maybe even less, you know, less common than that, at least in our four counties. Of course, it depends on the stream. Sure. Um, some streams are going to have more of them, but they're, yeah, maybe one in two thousand. We see, you know, typically a couple a year and we're handling, you know, it might even be lower than one in two thousand, how they think about it. So we handle

1:12:54a lot of, a lot of fish and we only see a couple each year, I'd say. Um, so it's hard to tell in terms of trends where, you know, because we see so few. Um, but, you know, it's, it seems to be where I've seen them as kind of those areas where, well, you got to mix broken browns and, and maybe it's transitioning to more browns because we've seen brown trout push up into some brook trout water and on some of our streams. And in those areas, it seems like there's a better chance of seeing some tigers. Um, but, uh, yeah, yeah, in terms of trends, it's hard to say because we see so few. Um, but yeah, they're, they're always a treat to see, when we get to see how I mean there. And pretty cool looking for sure. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I went on a, on a hot streak. I was, took me like nine years to catch my first one and then I caught three in like seven month span after that. And I was like, well, I'm not going to catch one again until I'm 50 like, yeah, that's yeah. Um, we'll do coming up over an hour here. So I want to make

1:14:01sure you get able to get back to your day and everything here. But, uh, for folks listening here before we wrap up, we got a couple of final questions for you here. First question, what advice do you have for someone who's never fished the drivelest region? Yeah. I mean, I think a big thing is kind of getting a feel for the lay of the land. So if you can get some, take a peek at some maps before you come here. I mean, there's so much water. And if you might ask, you might ask somebody and they might just direct you to a couple of streams that are going to be really, you know, there's going to be probably a lot of anglers on those more popular waters. Just take a peek at a map. You know, it's like the DNR if you Google DNR Fishing Finder. We've got a dark GIS map that shows where easements and classified drought waters are. And you can kind of get a feel based on where our easements are located. If we bought an easement there, that's probably a spot you want. No, we bought it because the fishing is good, you know,

1:15:03so it's worth investigating. But yeah, just getting a feel for the lay of the land. But yeah, it's always worth reaching out to guides and to or reaching out to your local fly shop just to see, you know, kind of what's going on and what to try. But yeah, I mean, otherwise just general advice for somebody visiting, you know, another thing to consider is just try to be courteous of other anglers too. I mean, I think, you know, as we've seen a good amount of pressure on our streams and certainly increasing on some streams like, you know, with all the with all the classified drought water we have, if you see somebody parked at a bridge, you can probably just drive a little ways and find a bridge in a section of stream all to yourself. So it's kind of the beauty of this area too is is 99, 95% of the time you're not fishing with anyone else, you know, up or down, right, up or down a stream. Yeah, you're on your own at a little section of stream. And because there's so much water, you can spread out. So I think be courteous in that

1:16:05regard also be courteous to the land owners. So you might see, you know, there's cattle, fence or, you know, make sure you get your car all the way off the roads because, you know, like I've had farmers complainer, they're trying to get their harvest or whatever across this tiny bridge and some of these too far out into the lane. So just be just, you know, slow down. Don't don't go zipping around be courteous. I think all those things are good things too. But yeah, otherwise just, yeah, just get a feel for the lay of land before you come, reach out to folks, and I feel free to email me too. I'm I'm happy to give you some pointers. But yeah, yeah. Awesome. Yeah. And I mean, one of the things you've said a couple of times here too, just on the restoration front and the easement and stretches like the work you guys are doing is super intentional in how can we make this the best possible resource for the fish, but also for the anglers so that they're not sitting here fighting that one tree that's got every branch under 10 feet snapped off

1:17:06the top three look like Charlie Brown's Christmas tree. We've all been there. And yeah, it's, it's, you know, it's good to know that like you guys are doing that intentionally and that you guys are, you know, people just need to keep that in mind that the DNR is always doing things to make things better. They're not trying to inhibit really anything, um, unless it's for the protection resource, right? So right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Yeah. We're we're here to make fishing better. You know, I mean, our funding, you know, my terms of my funding a lot of it comes from, you know, taxes on fishing equipment and license sales. And so, you know, we're, you know, we're here serving serving anglers and trying to do the best for the resource and the anglers. So, yeah. Yeah, definitely. You kind of touched on it too, but on the angler side of things, what can anglers do to, you know, increase to make your job easier, basically, for like the betterment of our trout streams, what would you suggest? Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, one thing you can pat yourself

1:18:08on the back right away, just by being an angler legally and purchasing your license and your trout stamp and your fishing gear, you are contributing to conservation. So it's kind of the, you know, nice thing about the way things are set up. You're in Wisconsin is in North America is, you know, you're you're contributing to conservation just by fishing. So, you know, those fees help pay for the habitat work and the monitoring and all the stuff that we do. On top of that, um, I think, you know, finding if you're in an avid angler and you want to try to, you know, get back and attribute positively to the resource, you know, reach out to, you know, your local trout unlimited chapter or other, you know, groups that you think, you know, that are that are doing work to help, you know, conserve the resource and they often have field days, um, you know, doing stream side brushing or tree planting, all those sorts of things. I think there's usually opportunities there for that. Um, yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Excellent. And if you're, uh, somebody who's

1:19:11interested and dug during the sharing land initiative, that's a great way to build out the conservation resume. If you're looking to do stuff like that, but another thing too that I'll add to that is, yeah, you know, we touched on earlier that like Noles Nelson is used to fund a lot of these stream big easements and a lot of the purchasing of these lands that you guys are able to go and do that. We know that it's kind of stalled out, but there is still time to contact your state representative, um, and give them a friendly nudge that you would like to see Noles Nelson continue, and there at least be be revived here to make these projects continue on to be possible and, so on and so forth, because we talked about it on the waterfall front, talked about it on the public lands front of old Rams front, but stream big easements are an absolute life saver and make everybody's time, like you said, like having the option to like we are so spoiled to not being a state where the stream bed is privately owned, you know, and to have the luxury of being

1:20:14able to go down such and such valley, see two cars or three cars and jump over the next ridge and have the whole place to ourselves. That's what makes the drift list so cool and so fun is the fact that it could be your next favorite spot could literally be around the next corner, and you'd have no idea until you go out and explore a special place, but Kirk, I really appreciate your time, man. Where can folks go to learn more about Wisconsin's trout streams, check out the regulations, and also get in touch with you and learn more about some of the work that you guys are doing. Yeah, yeah, a couple of different resources. You could just simply search, you know, Wisconsin DNR trout fishing regulations, and you'll get a nice map of where their trout regs are, otherwise there's the online mapping tool I mentioned, research for the Wisconsin fishing finder, that's got some easement locations and some habitat work locations, that sort of thing. Nice tool, but yeah, otherwise under under utilized resource

1:21:16that we have too, is our trout fisheries reports. So if you search Wisconsin DNR trout fisheries reports, there's a big page with a whole bunch a long list of trout reports, you know, from and it goes by county, and we really, in some of those we really go into detail, and there's lots of great information in those for those who are, you know, really curious and want to learn more. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've spent many and evening pouring over those yeah, there's some great stuff in there, yeah, yeah, sometimes it's almost like, wow, surprise, this is public, but as an angler, I feel that way. Yeah, it smokes, there's a lot of answers in there for those who are willing to go look for them. So folks, I'll leave it at that, but correct, I seriously, I appreciate the heck out of your time and all that you're doing to protect our trout streams and fisheries and just all the work that you and your team do to make them continue on to be such a special place and special resource that we have here in Wisconsin,

1:22:23man, I really appreciate your time and I look forward to hopefully having you back on as we get that that pit tag and survey and we get a little more data on that because I'm fired up about that, but seriously, man, I really appreciate it and I look forward to chatting further down the road. Awesome. Yeah, I know, yeah, it's been great to talk to you and it's, yeah, always a pleasure to talk about the resource here. It's something special for sure. Absolutely, and folks, the weather's just getting better, so find some time to go get on the trout streams and explore everything that we've been chatting about here today. You will not regret it, but with that folks, thanks for listening. We'll talk to you next Tuesday. Thanks, Kirk. Thanks. That's all for this week's episode. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you liked this episode, be sure to subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your podcasts and while you're at it, if you can leave me a five-star review, I would appreciate that a ton. You can also follow along with my outdoor adventures on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube at the Wisconsin Sportsman. That's also the best way to get a hold of me to suggest topics, guests or questions you'd like me to explore on this show. Big thanks to our

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