Why We Still Love Testing

0:00Hello friends and welcome to another episode of the Testing Peers podcast. My name is Chris Armstrong and today I am joined by Russell Crenzford. Hello! Who on this call is called Testing Peers so if you ever wanted to it was named after. Now we know. Tara Walton. I am Linda Fundaforren. Hello! Very excited to have you here thank you for joining us but you did speak at the conference last year. I did. Big fans. So today let's know we are going to be speaking about joyful things as testers. It's going to be a feel good episode we hope. But before we dive into that, Linda Banta time. Yes. So I have a habit. I have a habit of naming inanimate objects in my home.

1:01And like for instance my plans I actually started doing it so that I wouldn't forget to water them. Because if you named them you grow a bond and then you won't forget to water them. That was the idea but now I've named many inanimate objects. Like I have a Lego cat and he's Felix and the plateau over there is shared out which is a very old Dutch name. My saxophone actually has a Spanish name. It's El Metal de Teroor because it scares me. And I was wondering do any of you give crazy names to inanimate objects or maybe your pets? So my pets all have people names but for a very very long time up until my last car I used to name my car. Usually after women because they tended to be a little crazy and emotional. And it's a good stereotype. Was that the car or the driver? Yes.

2:01Teenage years and 20s are special time. But at some point I stopped naming my cars. Now my sister has named all of her houseplants and all of my houseplants but I could not tell you their names. So I'm like tar. The only thing really being named in my household is cars. So I had a Mercedes called Mel Merck and my cobra had names as well and things like that. So I generally named cars but that's about it. And to be fair I only named them because my partner at the time insisted upon it and she loved naming everything. So you're not the only one that I know that much. I have also named cars but I don't want to go down that route again. So I think probably for me it's less an explicit name and more just when the name of the thing escapes me. And so I'll call it the thing I'll be about and the thing I'll be dig and the watch we call it and what did you do and the Fimmie flops it and the they're there. They're there. But they're better and I'll say those things but it sort of becomes a thing that the kids refuse to pass you just the wooden spoon because you call it the word a bit of a

3:06blur and they'll just go down that route. So not a real name and I wouldn't be able to spell it. But that's probably the best thing that's not a car. My current car is called Kenny however. So there we go. Yeah, my current car is the well it translates to the spark fighting. It's a poll star. It's the sister of Volvo and I have a friend who calls his Volvo a Viking and a poll star is electric. So it sparks the spark fighting. But I mostly call it the baby because it's my baby. My told you that one of the merke was called male. I've got a second Merck. So it's called Mel B. Hey car. Beacuse. So pretty. So pretty. Plus I guess it's see that brings me joy and it brought you joy I think. So spy skills Russell. You know, I always had you down as a thing as a guy probably like more of a melt more of a male sea person than a male B person. But it's good. We're we're we're peeing back the onion. We're discovering more things. Mel sees my next car. We're actually going to third car.

4:07Oh, this is bringing me joy. That was a really good segue. Did you notice? I just thought I'd pause on it for a second. So things that bring us joy. Russell, you proposed this. You said it was something to do with this thing in the sky that you don't normally see. The sun, I think it is. Yes. As a northern or an England, which is, you know, above leads just to be clear for people. It's something we don't see very often. We don't have a very wet area, but at the moment it's not very sunny. So I think it's the first time the last two days I've seen sunshine this year. And it made me actually happy, joyful. It brought a smile to my sad, frowning northern face inspired me to think what brings me joy and testing? What's out there that sort of makes me happy? What brings a smile to my face and all those sorts of things? And if I'm starting this off, I think ultimately it's a, I guess, professional pride. I think it's one of the things that I've helped make software that people have bought used or other things better is in more functional, more valuable, more working.

5:09And that I've done that by testing it myself, but also enabling others, helping others. And that sort of thing and that is probably my ultimate joy is actually being able to know that thing I'm working on or with, I helped make the people that use its experience better. And, you know, in measurable ways at times where you can dig back to what you found, how it wasn't going to work or how it might mischarge someone. And actually because you've tried something odd and usual, you found this anomaly and then and be able to kind of tell people about it and advocate for my better words to get it fixed or improved. And I think I get a lot of joy from doing that, but also helping people do that better in general, be it developers or anyone else, just actually improving quality is kind of a joyous thing for me. I am sad at times, but I do find that good. Quite general, I appreciate so I'm sure we can go into more detail though. I like that it feels very impactful when you have those good moments and you can look back on actual, not metrics for the lack of a better word. I hate tying metrics to joy.

6:17But I think when you can look back and say, I actually made an impact. I made this customer's life easier or I made my co-workers life easier. Those are always really good days in what could otherwise be in some cases really bad jobs. They are that shining moment. I think back to the last time I felt joy about testing. And that was when at my last assignment, which is not very long ago, the joy is not very long ago, but I was able to unbord a trainee, someone who just got their software test training and they were very technical and he so clever, but he had no experience. And I unborded him on my project and I got to watch him build his confidence and at some point I asked him like, hey, would you like to give the weekly testing update in the project meeting? And he just started glowing and said, yes, I would like to try. And he did so well. That was honestly a moment of very big joy for me that I often think back

7:22to because my current stipend is not so much fun. Not every day is a joyful day. I think this month has proven to me in this weather. But no, how about you, Chris? What comes to mind straight away for you? I struggle with taking joy about things that I alone have done. It's more like you've said, the joy in improving things but collectively. So being a part of something that you can look at. I've struggled a lot with things like pride and the like, call it cultural problems or whatever, but it's always something that's been quite hard to attribute. But when you can look at something and just like even the great cynic within me can't refute the fact that something has been good and positive that's come off the back of it. So the other week, a friend of mine finally, after a difficult job hunt, they got a job and that's glorious and I'm so happy. But they said to me that not only were they really glad that I just checked in on them. I know how

8:27rubbish the job market has been. I experienced it sort of a year or so ago. And so I just didn't want people to feel like they were stuck. So I wanted to check in on them, just make sure they were like, not tell them how should they job. People already have a lot of those things. Not tell them you must do this again. That's not what you want. People just want to know they're not stuck. They're not by themselves. The people still care about them because we job identities, all those sorts of things. And the most joyful thing that happened off the back of it aside from getting a job, which is wonderful. But they said that the small acts of kindness just checking in, making time for people. They said they inspired them to do the same for a lot of their other colleagues who got made redundant. And they said because they they were able to receive something that made them feel better. And rather than just going nice one bro, they said, I'm going to make sure I can do that for other people. And that's the whole like paying it forward kind of my lucky. That's what I like to see when you can be a part of something that impacts other people. And you don't have to be the one

9:28that's just they're going like I mean the superstar, but you've been able to just be a part of making people's life just a little bit more bearable. I don't know about you, but it's those moments of pride where it's like I almost feel like a proud parent because I can see them taking whatever I've taught them, whether it was by example or like I work as a trainer right now and I teach people testing. And there's nothing I love more than when I see somebody excited and explaining it to somebody else. And I'm like, oh yeah, that's look that's my happy moment. The light has gone off. Everybody's excited. They're ready to pass on information or you know, share knowledge like that is the happiest thing for me. I don't resonate quite a lot. And I was just thinking about my happiest times in general, like periods of time. And it's always been around when coaching others or onboarding people new to the field into a business, trying to teach them the basics, getting the basic understanding and helping them find their feet and seeing their, it click for a better word and actually them getting joy. I call it the

10:34light bulb moment. But you can like see the light bulb come on and they're like, ah, it was exactly that. And it's just over a concept is an idea. It's a demonstration that you do, but it makes sense to them where before it didn't or something else. You've explained that to them and actually rather than just this word that has many meanings, you've actually explained to them the conceptual idea behind it and actually explain why maybe agility has value versus formal waterfall-less process, which is maybe what they'd always thought of software being kind of a procedural base stage one, stage two, stage three. And so actually being able to explain it, get them involved with it often with games. Games have a great way of bringing joy to people at same time because they get you thinking about it, practically experimenting with it, they get you seeing it, not just hearing the one to go to a dull theory. And actually if you're administrating a game, a bit of play to learn, it's also much fun for you, often chaos, but also fun.

11:34I love chaos. Don't we all, yeah. He said that word with like a little bit of disdain, but I'm like care for it. Chaos. Oh, it depends on the other responsible person having to do it, I not I guess, but yeah, it's a little bit of adaptation and a bit of chaos is definitely fun. It can bring joy to. So some of us like chaos for joy. And it's, for dintly, I brought chaos into one of the biggest projects I've done in my career. And that project was at a very large bank where they have the certain way of working. And I didn't want to do that certain way of working because I don't believe in that. It's very waterfall, very project manager driven. And I just really wanted to report on quality and risk. And after about a year and a half of struggling and repeating the same stories to a bunch of managers over and over again, I found one of those managers in a hallway to know what are their colleagues. How we look at quality. And I just puffed up my feathers like a proud mama bird

12:35and walked away. Oh, I love those moments. I've had a couple here lately where catch phrases and explanations that I've used in leadership meetings have now gone full circle. And they're coming back to me as the explanation on why something is happening or changing. And I'm like, you guys really do listen. I just sort of cry and be so happy. There is something about getting through. There's nice moments. There is no, there you are. I was going to say exactly the same thing as nice moments when you, when you feel something clicks and people and it carries on a lot on those lines. Our friend Lee Rathbone used to say that people had a like a bingo card for words that he said, like he was known for these are the words that he says and he goes on and on and on about. And then he hears those words and if we go, well, that's come from Lee to that box. That's come from, but it becomes like part of a culture, the language. My one of late at work, which people have already started when I say it in meetings, they pick up their glass and they go, where are you? There we go.

13:39Is a specificity because too much merciness and unknownness is going on and I am not down for that sort of thing. So I'm like, if people just know that I'm the guy that wants more specifics, that's all right, because I'm happy with that. You're not going to the one as well about intention on this. I mean, I also have decisive humility. That's the one. Sorry. And cautious optimism, but that's more related to AI specificity is just like general life. What the hell do you want? Like someone said, can I want this project started off? And I was like, why? That is easy. No, they're like, I can't be. It seems cool. I want to be involved. I'm like, have you thought about this? Let's have a chat. And we talked about it. Talk about specifics and go, actually, we can do that without creating a whole new project. Are you going to save yourself time? It's going to be great. And they went, nice one. Let's do that specificity. Hard to say sometime. A lot of the time. It makes me wonder if we all have that version of a bingo card that like, maybe we're bringing people joy when it's like, she said all the things.

14:42What colleagues and teams everywhere. I actually made a conference bingo card at the conference where it was last week. The bingo card idea, it helps get a deeper level of listening. And I really like that idea that if I can listen to two things at the same time, I'll pay more attention. And that also helps me to listen to other people that I sometimes don't agree with. So if I can find a personal bingo card like code, it touched her nose, they said, hey, or whatever, that helps me actually stay on track. I wonder what my bingo card is. Do you like bingo cards? I especially like them at networking event where you've got to find people who've seen Tey of the Swift or who have done a podcast as an example. I think we've done that game. I don't know, you're a star, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yes. And other places as well. But yeah, definitely you're a star. It's good for networking because it forces people to try and at least talk to people and all the rest of it, which again is another, I guess, socializing with testers. It sounds like a bit of a bragging things, but doing podcasts with peers, that brings me joy listening to different

15:47perspectives, being challenged on my perspective at times in a constructive way. Don't get me wrong. I don't like it when people point their finger at me and yell at me. But by having creative discussions by discussing ideas, sharing ideas like I've just probably going to see if I can borrow Linda's idea there or see whether we bring that to peers con this time or next time or whenever. But those sort of different things that give people a choice and some people will like it, but it's not forced, allows people to kind of select their joy, select what makes them happy. But you're giving them options. You're not just saying turn up, watch, listen, you're actually giving alternatives, which generally means something will click, fit, work better for some than others, but it's an experiment. You're giving people options, which I think is a good way to look at people, teamwork, collaboration by presenting different things. You're more likely to do something that brings that a little bit of joy to that person. That some people will hate. Don't have to engage with it. Some people might enjoy and can engage with it, but you give them the options. And I think in

16:49teamwork, I think presenting things with options, the ways that different people can adapt to them is quite good, because we talk a lot about neurodiversity these days. And we are all a lot of us are different in how we do things and how we think in all the rest of it. So presenting those things is a great way of enabling people to find those joys in the moments that otherwise could be challenged. I have to admit, when you first posed the topic, I've had such an uphill battle lately on so many fronts that I've been so cranky and I thought, oh my god, I have to think of things that bring me joy. And immediately I thought of the community of testers that we have, because when I am cranky or I'm feeling isolated or I'm out of ideas, I always turn back to my community and they either pull me out of it or make me feel like, nope, it's not just me, I'm not crazy. My leadership is just like everybody else's leadership and we're all fighting the same battles and that has been immensely helpful. I look back on the first few years of my career where I tried to do it without a community and I don't

17:50know how I am still in this career without y'all. So I know that feeling, like a lot of, well, many of us start out in a kind of finding our feet, falling into this sort of testing or landing in it without kind of planning all new and things like that. It's evolved, it's changed, I think the percentage is reducing that, does that these days, but I think it makes quite a big effort, I guess, to the community. And it's probably, certainly, personally, why I care about giving back to it so much, because I know when I'm starting out like you, I felt very isolated. I was the only tester in my company. I was the first tester in my company. I had never tested before, even then. So everything was a discovery. And so the only community, reading the blogs, going to the conferences, speaking to different people, doing some training on it, were the only ways I can actually grow. And if they hadn't been for the community and hadn't been for things at ministry testing and other places out there, I would have struggled to have learnt anything and would have been just fighting to survive. So it did bring me joy

18:50in a way that I didn't even realise at the time. And the growth, I've always felt like I can't, I become stagnant too quickly and something that I get kind of down in the dumps about it. I love learning new things. It's one of the reasons I joined a STEM field to begin with, was to always be learning something new and not stuck doing the same thing every day. And having that resource to somebody to hand over their blog or going to a conference and learning what people are doing brand new, those are the moments that I remember. I really do like doing this and this is actually really fun every day. I start in testing wasn't as lonely as Russell's. I'm so sorry, the chance to all that alone. Okay, we all have different genes. The only community I had at the time were my colleagues and the colleagues at the assignment where I was sent to. And that still is a very narrow perspective that you didn't have. And there's not many people that you can interact with or find help. And the person that actually got me into testing, Yodas Meerts is also the person that got

19:50me to my first on conference, the dude. That's no longer being organised right now and kind of hoping that it'll turn into a zombie and stand up and walk again soon. Who knows? But that opened up a world of contacts and people that I still converse with about problems that I find. And the more I step into community space, the more I find value in it. So when I teach trainees now, one of the things I start with is look, there's this whole community here. You can go here and there and there, go these people, there's this unconference, go to frogs. If you can get to England, go to Periscom, actively building on that community that gives so much back that also brings me much joy. It's a lot of like finding your people, finding somewhere you belong, finding people you can resonate with, but also bounce ideas off and have a bit of accountability and challenge. All those things are wonderful. And in many ways, that's a more difficult puzzle to solve than a lot of the logical things that we face when we actually just get to get down in the code. But there are a

20:54moment, I can remember working on an automation project and there was a particular precondition for a phase. I was testing smart meters at the time and I wanted just to check that I got the logic correct on something because it was, it had to be like a specific time of year, specific time zone, specific conditions had to be met. And it was like how many nested preconditions kind of get in place. And someone was like just write a really long script where you're basically copy-pasting and I was like no, there is a way. And I can even remember that you know, sometimes you get so into it and you're like I'm going to get this done. I'm going to get this done and someone comes in, what about you? You're like no, no, no, taxi drivers, leave me alone. I've got to just do it. Nice sort of focus, focus. About half an hour, 45 minutes, I cracked it, ran through, debugged it, got it sorted and that there was no one else in the room because I was said, I tell people to leave me alone. And I just go, yes! And it was a wonderful moment. That is the entire reason that I got into programming to begin with was that I solved the puzzle

21:56and I made it work moments. I love it more than just about anything else and you're right when somebody comes in and tries to like point it out of you. You're like let me do it. Just don't touch my stuff. Let me figure. Have you thought about this? No, obviously haven't thought about a super obvious thing. Thank you mate. And my sister who is not a technical person didn't even own a computer until a couple of years ago used to come up in college and go why is that missing a semicolon? All the other lines have it. I'm like I hate you go away. Let me solve the puzzle. Secretly you were thank god. Yeah, well, after two hours now as a more mature adult I go hey come look at this and tell me if anything jumps out at you. But before I spend two hours wondering why it's not working. Code blindness is a real thing. You stare at the same screen for long enough, you can't see it. What's in front of you? That brings you back to community stuff though because

22:57then you meet people to sanity check. I mean I literally like sometimes call out people and go I don't know if I've been taking something crazy, like inducing it inside of me. I just need to understand here's the context. This is how I feel. Is it rational or have I got myself just in a moment where I need to go and take a walk or something or is this valid and I need to sometimes check those things because while you know I've got a reasonably good gut for things it is wrong sometimes and I need that sort of sanity check with another human just to make sure that I put a key point on there another human. I'm conscious that some people are now using AI to do those sanity checks with and if humans can be wrong too. Yeah positive reinforcement. What a great idea. Oh that's a smart thing. He has right over the clever. Drive off the, yes drive off the cliff. Why not? They'll be gland somewhere. So one of the first companies I ever worked at used to give us all on orientation day A-Rubber doc because they were like do not bother your colleagues until you've

23:59talked to the doc and when you're you know 20 years old and somebody hands you a duck and you're like I'm sorry. Explain but it's that that process is trying to figure it out and when you do the joy that comes from it. I absolutely love RCA too which I don't know many people in the testing sphere that do but it's that like I found a bug and I found why it's a bug and I feel complete now and you can do whatever you want with that information but I did it I found it. I do like records. I do because on the same root causes you can actually prevent more often similar errors similar patterns reoccurring. So I guess it's the way of describing some of like finding a problem at the interface level. It's like well why'd they get there and if I can prevent a problem it is better if I can coach someone or I could explain a reason why something isn't good because it was done deliberately perhaps you know in error not aware like accessibility is a classic one where people don't know about it therefore they make mistakes then you point it out

25:01at the end and you're like well if I just give me some coaching upfront we could have prevented you building it, me breaking it or me finding errors and then telling you you're not done it right much better if I just sat down with you and explained some of the criteria needed for accessibility that I'm going to test for and then you build it to pass that rather than you just building it and then saying yeah save it's accessible and if you can actually help someone prevent error for a better word there's a satisfaction there is a joy that comes out of that because that's the less than that person will put forward for a lot of time and lots of other things of software that you've helped reduce errors in the future but yeah for me accessibility is a classic one of that given people more in awareness and I don't know if you've ever done these things but you've ever done sort of a workshop where you actually experience what is like to be disabled in terms of like wearing funky glasses everyone here but me he's got glasses on but where you've got severe eyesight issues and you've got tunnel vision and different color of different things I just have to take off my glasses yeah you can't see yeah fair enough but like using screen readers using all

26:04these tools and actually use them because it's amazing the difference experience that you get and if you close your eyes and try to navigate around a website it's incredibly easy to see how frustrating it's so quickly just because you didn't put a label or an alternative or made the tapping order sensible and so on I recently had to move my mouse to my other hand because my right hand was injured and it had a splint and it was very difficult to move my fingers with the splint that was the goal of the splint so very successful but then I needed the mouse with my other hand I was so slow oh my god clicking everywhere and not getting the right thing I can't double-click with left apparently but why I would rather keyboard navigate I did have a job in college where they didn't give us mice and you learned very quickly when software was not built to like tab through a form if you're doing data entry most people will end up using the keyboard and tapping rather than

27:05go back and forth between mice and other things so like working in county where you quit invoices so on yeah as someone who's actually done data entry work before I became a tester you don't touch the mouse it's low shootout yeah yeah yeah no it does I get I got ridiculous speeds it's yeah and we were we were on quotas so you know you had to go fast but when when you tab and all of a sudden it goes from the first field to the twelfth you kind of automatically reach back over to the mouse to go back where you want to be and you're like I don't even have a mouse and it made me really appreciate man all of my forms were correct it's one of the first things I test when I do you I test now all of those things are top of my I don't even care if it accepts numbers yet I want to know that I can tap through the screen can I just go through it yeah but you know if you help people understand that and they experience it that the satisfaction there's joy that kind of behold there the I have the beholder because I know that I've made people with eyesight difficulties

28:09and other things alive is easier in their software yeah don't get me wrong there's laws and some of this certainly in the UK but I know at many places that understand the law but are willing to depuritize that testing which is fine it's a choice that decision that everyone has to make but if I can teach the developers what's right so that's actually there's no effort everyone's a winner and that's kind of often the way I look at these things that if I can prevent the errors from happening then the efficiency is through the roof and if I can see myself as a software tested my job is to make the end product better so our coaching is often the better way of doing that than book reports to be quite blood ever fun story from the early days in my career where I found much joy in finding books but I failed in teaching the developers we were in this open office plan and there's a row of six desks with testers and behind us there's a row of six desks with

29:10developers and two of those developers were great this is fine you don't really need to test this everything works we've already looked at it and I was like well then I will prove that it that it works and nothing works but every time I found a new book I got more and more happy and when I'm happy I'm quite vocal and they got so distraught by me being oh my god another one that they actually applied and got a glass wall between us oh that is amazing I love that that's one each to to get away from developers right gritana a glass wall though interesting but you know it's interesting as a as a fellow who actually uses a left-handed devices I have a left-handed ergonomic mouse here and welcome to the club we all like to left click rather than right click it's a very special place to be but it got me thinking about how I've been quite a facetious tested and the is and like I've joined companies and they've said what what

30:12computers you like and I'd say well it's what's everyone else got and they tell me and then I go I'll love the other thing then but I quite often voted when I tested computer games to take the minimum specification PC because I was going to experience things in a different way to other people intentionally doing something awkward and it got me I learned this week there's a terminology friction-maxing yeah two x's because 2026 you know yeah and there's different there's different versions of it some people say it's been a bit lazy and what have you but the version I like is it's talking about intentionally choosing to do a task the hard way rather than the easy way so you're actually giving yourself the satisfaction of learning of understanding how things are put together how things work and in this kind of world in which we are living where things can be more automated where things can be passed off to our best friend mr chat gbt or whatever there is a

31:18a bit of joy that can be taken away from us from actually learning how stuff is done that that process that light bulb moment that thing that creative thing that gets us going when we sort of prodding and probing and then covering and fixing problems if that's taken away from it as I think that's dealing a little bit of joy from us and I'm not saying let's avoid all these things forever because frankly we'll get left behind but it's still quite fun to try stuff that isn't easy and to learn sometimes it doesn't have to be harder so I used to for example always use Safari browser when I was testing everyone else uses Chrome because Chrome is most popular blah blah blah that's why I use something different because you're all using that therefore I will find different things to you because 80% of you are doing these things but it's still a valid thing but the same time I've also then I've built I'm building a car so I can understand how mechanics work and suspensions work and engines work and so on because sometimes the learning is the important aspect as you say so it's it is it everything really isn't it but that learning is

32:22joyful I often don't think about learning as a joyful act but it is there is something valuable that I get out of the end product often not the exams often not the test that I with these sort of or that reading a boring textbook but depending how you learn there's often lots to be doing obviously practical learning I think it's a lot more joyous certainly to me anyway I love it and testing has allowed me to learn such weird off-the-cuff things that I would never have encountered I have helped build industrial fans and I know all about like static air pusher and air flows I worked on heart monitors I can read an EKG for no reason other than I needed to make sure the software did so let me learn how so I know what a drug I've learned such weird things and I love it which also makes me really fun to take to like pub quizzes so if you ever want to do if you want ever want to do next year's pub quiz Chris we found you team member down for years pub quiz

33:28either that or I have to go win jeopardy or something because I know useless things for no reason other than I had to test it and I got really far down the rabbit hole yeah it brings you joy there doesn't it discovering these new things sometimes and the fact that you've picked up these random skills that I live for you know surprise people yeah yeah and it more importantly you could win a quiz which is the ultimate victory for life enjoy if you can't win a pub quiz so I can always stump people on two truths in a lie that one's and you know my heart stops you can read the monitor to tell me why probably the monitor telling that his heart has stopped you can just get me like yeah peace flight line might be useful but never mind is there anything I was going to ask we talked about testing enjoyed in there is there anything outside of testing because sometimes we get a bit too focused on testing and maybe we should think a little bit wider broader mental health doing stuff for mental health I find taking a walk sometimes depending on the mode I'm on

34:30listening to the angry music whilst I'm in nice and peaceful joyful world is something that brings me joy because it shuts out all the anger and the noise and those sorts of things I'm still getting good healthy fresh air out in nature and all these sorts of good things and I come back in and I'm like I'm almost like I've reset my body and my brain which is joyful because if I am really cheeseed off which does happen occasionally because sometimes people myself included are idiots and it's good to step away from that screen where all the idiots exist and just spend a bit of the time without screens sometimes listening to screams but out into the open and that does bring me joy I think when I have to step away from testing due to frustration or just being generally stuck on something I love to fall back on things that give me like an instant gratification moment a coloring page or a meal that I can cook in 20 minutes or you know anything like that where

35:33there's like a finished product because I haven't been able to finish anything at work so I need to click that button and finish it somewhere else and have that done moments I find that I have a really big creative outlet I I play the saxophone that's my my main squeeze and the medalliteror she's on my on my left here but there's many other instruments in my house that I can just pick up and play a little bit and that always makes me happy and my mental health has not been great the past few days I've really been struggling a lot with self-worth issues as one does and yesterday I just picked up my saxophone and I played for an hour only things that I wanted to play that made me feel good things that connected with how I was feeling and when I put it away I just felt like my battery was recharged a bit and I could see some light like like Russell's on a

36:37Sunday I feel like I can see a bit of Lisa Simpson in that sort of moment where you get out and just play some of the saxophone together with those things that's a beautiful yeah for me it's got to be the outdoors as well so it's probably going somewhere where there's very few people there's just the sound of nature and great views could be pouring with rain I haven't had more anything else but it's generally just being out there in the wilderness or being out there a little bit more remotely not too wild but up a mountain up a hill a bit away from life I guess just escapism and all the normal problems your phone going beep doesn't happen because you've got no phone reception all the rest of it so you can just detach and sit there and just watch and for those moments are quite sort of calming reliefing joyful just remind you why you work you know you're not working to work you're working to live so yeah no I don't I can't follow you on the outside thing that's where the the bug and the heat and the cold live yeah certainly not with the warm for

37:40lips where I'm from anyway I do like the calm and peaceful times just not outside well if you do in a car then you could theoretically stay in a nice warm environment I guess he just don't just parks when I'm looking out onto a nice view then you could pretend to be in nature that might work I'm okay with that yeah also naps naps are great more naps please they are a joyful thing yeah sleeping in general it brings me much joy oh I don't understand that I didn't want to go to bed when I was younger it's amazing nothing is great waking up is a nightmare why do you waste it on the youth yeah now we're showing how young and sprightly we all are burn out yes where does burnt out all right well we would love to hear from you guys about what brings you joy so as a way of wrapping this up thank you the Lind effort joining us on this episode and as always Chris and Russell it is a pleasure if you would like to reach out to any

38:45of us you can find us on LinkedIn or by email at contact us at testingpears.com and hopefully we'll see you around goodbye