Why Nice Guys Finish Last | Marni Kinrys and Adam Lane Smith

0:00For dating to work, women have to feel safe. But the problem is that men today don't know how to make a woman feel safe. Because most men are spending all of their time just trying to please a woman. Make her feel magical or interesting. And that's not what women are looking for, especially in a loving partner on the first date. Ladies out there, if you've been on dates before, where it just wasn't clicking, and the man was just trying to please you, and you felt more like his mother than his lover. And guys out there, if you've been dealing with nice guy issues, anxious attachment, and you've tried everything you possibly can think of to make women happy. And it's never worked today is the episode for you. Today, I've got Marney Kinris, a woman who has spent her career helping nice guys overcome

1:03their fears and finally make romance work with women. Marney, welcome to the show. Marney is so good to talk to you. We're talking again. Yeah. We talked before on your podcast, right? And you and I have each talked to a lot of people. How's it going to be? And why I didn't remember you. Right. And I didn't remember, right? But now I do. It's that lady, right? So part number two, and now we are forming a relationship. Yes. It's funny, because that is exactly how dating works. You help men, especially nice guy men, nervous men, worried men, who are trying to get approval, men who don't know if they're likable. You help them find that masculine confidence. Yes. Assuredness is the word that I've seen you use before, actually, which is a very good word. You help them find that. And I want to highlight how the first meeting between two people, people who say it's the absolute biggest moment of your relationship. But it's not. Is it? It's the return. Well, to be honest, the interesting thing that I've seen about women, I've interviewed probably 9,000 women over the past 22 years of doing what I've been doing.

2:05And it's interesting because women can change their feelings at multiple moments during time. So like, yes, the first impression is really important, but things can shift. Like for example, if I'm looking at a man and he's walking up to me and I don't find him attractive at first glance, he can start talking with me and his face will start morphing right in front of me. If he has a great personality and something that I can connect to, I can feel certain things about him, I'll actually find him more attractive after that first impression. Or if I see a very good looking man, that can also shift to being somebody that I'm totally not attracted to. And actually, I could potentially find him unattractive. 100%. Yeah. The Ick. Yes. 100%. And then look a certain way physically until you speak to them and then their content of their character, the way they speak, the way they act, the way they talk. I'm curious. So I sat down here and then you and I talked and you were a little stiff like you would be in a room full of men, right? And then I started talking about my wife and my daughter's and all of that.

3:06Did that change your opinion of me? Did you feel more comfortable with that? Yeah, definitely. Because I can relate to it. I can connect to it in some way. You have children, you have daughters. That means you're good around women. So yeah, it softens me up. So I talk about this all the time that the important pillars of attraction come down to four S's. These are the things that you want women to feel when they're around you and the things that you also have to feel for yourself, but we're talking about making women feel something. But it's making them feel safe, making them feel special, making them feel sexy, and making them feel selected, right? And that's what creates this cluster of attraction for them is feeling all of those things, not at the same time, but making them feel all of those things. So you made me feel safe instantly by bringing up those things. The other person behind the camera was talking about a really nice blanket that I liked. That made me feel safe and comfortable, you know? So that helped me relax more. That right there is the art of how to be a human being with another human being. And I think that's at the core of what we're going to be talking about here today. How men who have that low confidence, what I would call anxious attachment style maybe,

4:07or quiet disorganized style where he's more inward, he's trying to be invisible, he's trying to please all of those pieces, even maybe an ethically avoidant man who's just a little more nervous around women, he doesn't know what they want from him, what women actually want. The definitive answer here today on this podcast, we'll find out those four S's, when you say those, I understand them because I've been well, I've lived around women my entire life. I work with women all the time. So when you say them to me, they make perfect sense. The average man on the street, if you tell him to help a woman feel safe, he has no idea what this means. He says, well, what does it mean that she's afraid I'm going to hurt her? Is there a tiger nearby that I need to kill? Does she want a handgun? Like what would make everyone feel safe? Everything basically. There is a feeling of fear around that person because either they are uneasy, the world is uneasy, the place that they're in is uneasy. So for a man to feel, to make a woman feel safe, he can do it in so many ways. He can do it with his words, but more importantly, he can do it with his body language. He can do it with the tone of his voice, with the facial gestures that he's making, like

5:09making eye contact, but being a bit softer. He can put a hand on her shoulder very slightly, no other parts of her body. Yeah. There's many things that you can do to make a woman feel safe. And even with the words that you use, by explaining who you are as a man verbally, you can help her calm down and relax, and that will have her feeling safe around her, around you. So I talked to my son about this recently because he just did a yo-yo competition a week ago. And I was telling him about how important it is for others to feel something from you. You tell others how to treat you, how to see you, how to view you as a human being. And if you're nervous, if you're uncomfortable, if you're a standoff fish, then that is the energy that they're going to get from you, and that's what they're going to be taking in. So if you go up to people and you talk to them as if you already know them, so for I said this in a yo-yo terms, I was like, hey, what yo-yo are you using or have you tried this yo-yo yet? Or do you guys have that yo-yo? We talked to them like you know them already.

6:11They're automatically going to feel more at ease by you because you are at ease with yourself and you're at ease with talking to them. So it's the same thing for attraction. One of my biggest things that I teach men is called OSA, and it's the way to break into conversation with women. It's observe, share, and ask a question. Not high. My name is Adam. I saw you from... That's very nice. And it's wonderful. Some guys can pull that off beautifully, being very direct and carrying themselves in a certain way, but for most guys and for most interactions, the best way to break into a conversation is to skip the five minutes of fluff and anything that will put a boundary in place between you and the other person, especially a woman, and just start talking as if you know someone already by making an observation about around the world. Oh, these walls are like really red. Or that one's really peachy. It's a simple observation, but you're cutting out that first five minutes of like static kind of boring, interview-ish kind of conversation that says, I don't really know who you are,

7:15and you don't know who I am. And then you go into a share, which opens up the observation. The share is about what you're thinking in your head, who you are as a person, and you're expressing that to another person. I have a shirt that's just like this, right? Kind of like what you said before about talking about your daughters. It's making me more human. Oh, I have a shirt that's like this. And then, oh, do you like this color? Red? It's just, it's simple things, but it's a way to say, I'm seeing something, I'm bringing you into my world, and there's no need to be nervous around me. Right. We're all sharing. It's very sharing. Yeah. One thing I've seen is, and I love this tack, because realistically what the man is doing is something called co-regulation. If his nervous system is on fire and screaming, and he's exuding stress sweat, and she can smell it consciously or unconsciously, and his eyes are flared, and his nostrils are flared, and he's shaking, and his voice is like, I'm going to get away from this guy, he's like murder me. Right. Like, he is scared. Boy, throw up on me. Right. Should I also be scared? Something is scaring this man.

8:16How is he going to react? There is a frightening, scary man who's a total stranger to me, and I have no idea how he acts when he's afraid. Of course, a woman is going to be afraid. And I feel bad because I, as a, as a wing girl to all of these men, I get to see the inside of who these men are, and they're just like the most amazing men in the world. I'm like, if you could just calm down for 10 seconds, and that woman could say, this is nothing to be fearful of, I'm going to stick around. I'm going to put him at ease, and then he's going to come out as this beautiful flower that I want to date, but that doesn't happen. Because in reality, you're like, I don't like how this feels. You're making me feel uncomfortable. I have to get away from you. Realistically, it's not the woman's job to make that man feel safe. If he walks in, he's nervous and freaking out and sweating and jabbering about dinosaur or whatever he's talking about, it's not her job to make him feel safe, especially on the first date. In fact, if she jumps in and starts making him feel safe on a first date, that's actually red flag, I think, for both of them. Not even a red flag. It's just not attractive. No, no. Right. As soon as I feel, I'm going to choose my words incorrectly here, like better than somebody

9:20else, because that's really what I'll feel in that moment when I'm, when I have to soothe somebody else, it puts me into a masculine role and, and sexual options are just off the table. You're his mom at that point. Yeah. He's crying on the floor and you're trying to comfort him. There is no joy. Yeah. And it's awful. And I've had that so many times with guys that I've interacted with where I'm like, okay, I know you're nervous. I'm going to make you comfortable. I'm going to be putting you at ease. And therefore sex is not an option for the two of us. Attraction is not an option. And that's hard for a lot of men to realize because for them, they're like, she's being nice to me. She's smiling. She's laughing. There must be some connection here. And that's what happens to a lot of guys when they go on a first date. They're like, this was great. We had a really nice time. The woman walks away thinking, I'm not attracted to that person at all. I felt no chemistry. And that guy's thinking, oh, she was so supportive of me. She was caring and kind. She listened. She asked me questions. We had an amazing date. We're going to go on a second one. Yeah. It's hard. It's really hard. It's hard for nice guys who are used to pleasing their mom, pleasing grandma and pleasing

10:21their aunts and pleasing their sisters and pleasing all the women around them. They walk in trying to be as pleasing as possible. One thing you said was you have to help women feel safe. I think most of them are helping her feel stimulated. They're trying to make her feel like he's interesting. He's dancing for her amusement. He's trying to throw dopamine at her and just make her feel good. I get nervous as a mom of two boys that like, I don't want to set my boys down that path. Because listen, I am a tough mom. I am the most loving mom in the entire world. I try to make my kids' lives so unbelievably amazing. I am also an anxious person. I also am a yellow. I am a jumper on things and like, I get nervous all the time. Okay. Am I creating that in the long run for them that they're going to be, that they need to soothe me all the time. They feel like they need to quiet themselves to soothe me and I'm very, I'm very nervous about that because I know that that's what that behavior can create. I'm not like a narcissist. They depressed horrible mother, but that's my fear where I'm like, if I'm telling you

11:25to stay quiet, then I'm quieting you in the future with women. I hear that loud and clear. I do. Mom guilt is so real. It's so real. I have three daughters, two sons, actually, maybe number six is coming. Five. Oh my God. So I know my wife's right now doing that. So it's tough trying to find that balance for certain, but most men nowadays have been raised by moms who were just overworked, exhausted, stressed out. Because she did not have time for him or give him context. And I tell them in this, look, your mom is the final boss of childhood for you. Not that you have to like destroy the relationship. No, grow it, but you have to overcome her, meaning you have to care for her, but you have to move beyond her feelings. Yes. And you have to be able to tell her, mom, I know you're nervous, I got to do this thing anyway. Yeah. And you have to be able to do that and work with her. And that's really how you step into manhood. That is one of the rights of passage. Yeah. And how you treat your mom is very different than how you treat a woman that you're trying to have sex with.

12:26Well, you would think. Or you would think. Yes. But it's hard because if that's the women that you have interactions with. So it's like, I, you know, I've heard that it's, it's women in general have impact on how you are later on in life, that it's women who are your teachers. Because I see that in a classroom setting as well. The women are telling you to be quiet, to not do this, to not bounce around the classroom because school is created for girls, not really for boys. But there is all of this feedback that young boys are getting either from their mom or from their female teachers, mostly female teachers, that who they are and what they are as men are not okay. For the last few years, I've been putting together what I'm calling the center for advanced attachment studies. It's my mission to take what's working in attachment, the neuroscience, the behavioral research, and what I'm seeing in my coaching practice every day and get it out into the world, into homes, into marriages and relationships. Because the men we're talking about here today and the women who love them, they don't have time to wait for this to work to trickle down from academia. Now, if you want to connect to this work that I'm doing, there's two ways to plug in

13:28right now and both are listed in the description below. First, my coaching program. My team and I work directly with men and couples on the kind of patterns that we've been covering. The father wound, the aloneness, the performance trap, all of it. And I've trained every coach on my team personally. And we work with people from every background and every stage of life. So if that's where you are, go fill out the application. My team will reach out, we'll figure out if it's the right fit for you and I'll start showing you what working together looks like. Second, my newsletter. It's free. It's where I go deeper on everything I'm covering on this channel and it's where I drop things I'm not dropping anywhere else. So if you want to keep learning and you're not ready for coaching yet, that's the place to start. And one heads up. At the end of May, I'm running a free masterclass called the path to remade secure. It walks through the six insecure substyles and how each one gets rebuilt back to secure attachment. If you want to understand yours or your partner's insecure style and what's happening in your body and mind when those patterns take over and how to start changing it, you need to be

14:30in that masterclass. And newsletter subscribers get first access to the registration link. So get on that list. I grew up in the California public school system. We were just bluntly told verbatim that what you are is not okay. Yes. And the boy is not okay. Girls are better than all of you. You were bluntly told that again and again and again. I would believe it wouldn't even be like it would be even more overtly that they are doing better than you are doing and there is no place for you here. 100%. That's the trap that a lot of guys fall into. So then they go on a first date and a second date if they get one and they try to please these women the way that they have been taught to please women. And I don't think I'll be blunt. I don't think women want to be pleased. No. I don't want to be pleased. I mean, later on down the road. Oh, sure. Yeah. I'm not for the attraction phase. Not at all. I can't feel attraction if you're trying to please me. Right. If you're appeasing and pleasing me, then I am not dating you and I'm seeing you as a meek man. But I have absolutely no interest in. So safety. Number one thing that we've discussed here today is helping a woman feel safe is a large part of its his own nervous system settled in himself, calm, ready at peace and then having

15:31decent conversations with us and that's a hard thing to do. If you don't have a lot of interactions with women, right, your your nervous system is going to get completely flooded when you see somebody that you're attracted to. So I have a program called the inner circle coaching program and we work with men on this for like the first one to three weeks. It's all about calming down their nervous system by giving them new beliefs about themselves as men as well as things to go practice out in the real world so they can have exposure to their nervous systems going crazy so they don't have to screw it up when they actually interact with the women that they're attracted to because it's really hard to get over that part of you. If you don't have interactions on a daily basis with people, you're going to get freaked out when you're talking to a woman with a beautiful smile, big breasts and you want to sleep with her. That's going to be very challenging for you. So helping a woman feel safe, absolute number one, absolute non-negotiable and a lot of there. I mean, the man has to feel safe. Yes. That's what I'm hearing. Yes. The man has to feel safe as well. So as I said before, the four S's are the things that women need to feel interaction but

16:31there are also things that you have to feel within yourself and you being safe is like feeling confident and capable that you could handle something if something was thrown at you. So either a woman rejecting you or somebody coming in with a baseball bat, like we want to see that you have the presence, have the capability and have the know it all to be able to make us feel safe and if we don't sense that from you, then we feel unsafe and then we also have to escalate to a masculine level because then we have to be the leaders and interaction. Exactly like what you were saying at the beginning. If the man is not masculine, somebody has to be, that's the game. That's the toughest thing for nice guys, anxious attachment, the prefrontal cortex actually fails to develop in childhood in the areas of self-regulation. So they look for external regulation, which is exactly why they're running to women who will regulate them for them. Interesting. Yeah, it's a big problem. And then they're oversensitive to oxytocin, which then releases gamma so that it suppresses their nervous system. So if she makes them feel special, then she regulates him from the outside and then he

17:34feels good. So he's literally looking for a mother figure, which is only going to happen for an avoidant woman who temporarily says it's kind of nice to have a guy that I can control. Yeah. That's the only woman that's going to be even moderately attracted. Yeah, but then she hates him afterwards. Yeah, she's going to walk all over him for the rest of his life because he will not man up. It is, it's awful. I talked about this with my girlfriends. I'm like, I hate what I could potentially do to a weak man. And I don't want to do it, but I'm so angry that he's not stepping up. It's like this thing that's built into my body and I feel like I'm a nice person, but I'm not so nice when I have it happening in front of me. Well, that is a real honest, primal reaction that you're supposed to have to a man who is abdicating his responsibilities. Yeah. And this is not, this is not to beat unanxiously attached men, not a hundred percent. No. They're already suffering enough, but you think back 10,000 years ago, 20,000 years ago are ancestors. It's life and death. 100%. 100%. So if that man is hiding behind your skirts, when the tigers are rolling, you're like, get

18:35the hell away. I need my skirt to go run. Correct. It is his job to get in front of you. And if he's not, you're going to throw him away. Correct. He is now a liability to the rest of the tribe. All he does is take up resources. Yeah. Well, let me ask you. So how, from your point of view, from a scientific point of view, how can you correct this if that is built into your system? How can you correct it? I work with these guys a lot. Quite often they're actually married already and they come to me and their wife is on the edge of divorcing them because she says, look, one of us has to be the man and it's not going to be me. So I'm going to go find somebody or you can fix this and she's just furious. So what has to happen? Number one is he has to master his nervous system, usually through physical techniques. There is just no one ice way to do it. He has to just manage his nervous system physically. How do you do that? How do you do that? Body techniques, Vegas nerve stimulation in the chest, being able to breathe specific physically, muscles actually. So I teach a specific type of tightening for pain and stress and then releasing and then Vegas nerve breathing.

19:36It takes about 13 minutes to complete, drains your nervous system. That really helps a lot. Five second resets for breath work, a lot of that stuff, but he has to do that, but that's not enough. Right. You're calming your nervous system. Then you have to have skill mastery so you are competent. Only way you ever gain confidence is when you have enough skills to handle, like you said perfectly, to handle any situation, but you have to know that you can use the skills. Yeah. And then you have to have experiences that begin remapping your brain and your brain pathways have to change away from I am a helpless child that needs a woman to protect me to, okay, no, I can actually protect myself and then the next step, I can actually protect someone else. And I want to. And I want to and I crave to because every man does, it's a natural primal craving that we have to do it. It's baked into us. It's beaten to women as well. Like I want to take care of my fans. Yes. That is like my natural desire of I want to be the best mom and I want to make sure that these kids thrive. Right. And that's that's really the sticking point because if you are around an anxious man,

20:36he is actively denying you your primal desire of what you are wanting and craving and built for. So he is forcing you into his role instead of you. And that's why nice guys finished last. If at all, they don't even finish it all, they don't get to finish it anyway. No. Not a bedroom or not. No, correct. Not ever. Exactly. It's specifically because of that. But again, it can turn around that fast for most nice guys as long as they do the body work on the skills and then push there, which is exactly what we're talking about here. Yeah, which I love. I think that's great because you're looking at it from a more scientific point of view, which I think is great. I'm just. My job is telling people what women are feeling like and what we sense from you. And most men, they like to listen to me. It's like, but what a woman says, guys. Yeah. But both work together because a lot of the guys that I work, they want the science to back it up. They're like, okay, this makes sense. But like tell me something logical that I can follow, and then I will, I will buy into this concept that you're talking about. The why? Absolutely. Absolutely. The second S.

21:37What is the second S? The second S is, okay, so we have sexy, special and selected, so which one do you want to talk about next? There's no order. There's like no specific. Whatever you want. Okay. So making her feel sexy, desired, right? Not like I see you, I have to have sex with you when I can't think anything else. It's just desired. Right. It's I desire you. I can control myself because I have tons of options, but I think you are very attractive and I'm going to let my intentions know. So many guys write into me and they'll say like, wait, I can't tell a woman that I'm attracted to her. Then she'll know what I'm thinking about her. I'm like, but then you're acting like somebody who's not attracted to her and you're not a creating attraction and you're creating a very nice friendship with great connection where she feels more, feels more masculine than you. So you have to be very clear on what your intentions are. Not saying I would like to have sex with you in the bathroom right now. You know that would work in some situations, but it's expressing, I'm attracted to you. We can talk about that afterwards, let me get to know you, but I'm talking to you because I potentially want to date you and I see you as an option for me and being okay with that. Most of the women I talk with and I work with, they end first dates and have no idea how

22:41the man feels. They go on the second date. No clue what he's thinking. Third date, no clue. So what you just said is, well, if I tell her, she'll know what I'm thinking. Yes. Yes, exactly. Even better. She might want it as well. Correct. Yes. We just had, so every Wednesday, I do a group coaching call for my inner circle program. And we all we talked about was being clear in communication about where you are at and how important that is, especially to high value, very attractive women. That makes you sexier to do that, not unsexy to do that because when you have lack of communication about where you're at, what you're thinking, what you want, their, their clueless, their nervous system goes crazy that like there's, there's nothing there that there's nothing tangible between the two of you. If you don't have good clear communication about where you are at. So my husband did the most amazing thing when we first started dating, like every third date, he would be like, I really like you, I'm enjoying where this is going. That's not too much. No. He's not saying, I'm in love with you. We're going to get married.

23:41Although he did say that. When we, he was very drunk, he's like, this could be our wedding picture like he said that. So that he revealed to me and that kind of freaked me out. But before that, when he was sober, he was very calm always and was all like very clear with his intentions. I really like hanging out with you. I want to hang out with you next week. Yes. Yeah. But I have other things in between. 100% one thing I hear there. So there's two reasons that men say I don't want her to know what I'm thinking. One, she'll use it against me. Yeah. I hear this all the time. Well, she'll stop trying. She won't, she won't try anymore. She won't force me to try more because they do hear that women like like the chase. So they have conflicting messaging that's coming at them and it's hard until you're in the moment to understand how to use this all properly. Yeah. But you can still say, I like you, but still still saying, I'm still evaluating how much I like you. But I, I'm like, I like you and I like what you just said. Right. Well, a healthy woman wants to know what you're thinking so she can begin calibrating correctly too. Yeah. She'll be clear about what your, what your desire level is so the other one can start matching the investment and say, oh, well, that makes sense.

24:43That's interesting. Yeah. And a man who can just say, you know, I really like you. This is really fun. It's actually been interesting. I'd like to get to know you better. Exactly. Or could even say like, I am thinking about doing ridiculously crazy things to you later tonight, but I want to have a conversation with you and find out that you can still hit that. Sure. Brain whatever. Yeah. Yeah. You can say these things to me. Yes. It's very attractive. That's probably not on the first date, but as the date on the first day, it depends on how the date is going. If that's the direction that the two of you are going into, you can totally say those things. You guys are into it. You absolutely can. Yeah. Depends what you're looking for. I think that I tell them in this, you have to be so clear on the first date about what you even want in your life. Mm-hmm. Like why are you here? Oh, that's so sexy. What you want in your life? Oh, I want to do this. I have this. I have drive. Because women want to see the potential in you. Well, what are you going to do as a man? Right. What life are you inviting her into? Mm-hmm. Well, let's just see where things go and you won't know anything for the next eight years. Yeah. No, that's not going to work. Yeah. This is the life I'm living. And if you join me on it, this could be us together.

25:43This could be us together. That creates attraction in her for you because now it's the life that she'd be joining in. It also is really nice to know what your relationships look like, family, friends, anybody else. That's a billboard for you. Mm-hmm. I like that the billboard. That's the billboard. And all of it makes her feel more desired and more interested as well because it's feeling sexy is not just, wow, you're really hot. Wow, I'm actually interested in a life with you. Yeah. That's a different part of sexy. A hundred percent. Do you have women who watch this as well? Or is it mainly men? Actually, it's mostly women and then they pass it to the men in their lives. Well, I was going to pass on one thing to women. Absolutely. So, yeah, so my sister-in-law who had gotten out of a horrible, horrible marriage and she was back and ready to date and her friends wanted to set her up and invited her to a barbecue and she met this guy there and they were having a great banter back and forth. They were having a good time and then she said to her friend, oh, I would like to go out with him. She goes, oh, that's good. I wanted to set you up with him. I'll make it happen. So, they ended up going out on a date and on the day he got nervous. She couldn't tell you was nervous, but he started just talking about himself the entire

26:47time, right? So, she called me from the bathroom and she said, oh, my, this date is absolutely horrible. I have to get out of it. What excuse can I make to get out of it and I was like, tell me what's going on. And she goes, okay, so he was so good at the barbecue when I met him, but now he keeps talking and talking and talking and like not making eye contact with me. I was like, oh, he's nervous. And he's probably been told by so many people don't allow any silences because then you look unattractive. So go back to the table, put your hand on his wrist, look him in the eye and smile and lean in. Just to say, like, you can calm down. I'm here. I'm in this too. And see what happens. And she's like, okay, I'll try that. She was like, ready to bolt and leave. And had she called another female friend, she would have been outdoor, right, and lost out on the sky. So she went back to the table and then she texted me later that night and said, oh my God, Marty, your voodoo magic worked as soon as I put my hand on his hand. He calmed down. He made eye contact with me. And we had a great back and forth conversation and we just ended up 30 minute make out session in my car. It was amazing. They dated for three months after that. But like, there's not many women who will stick around for that because as we were talking

27:49at the beginning, how they feel is so foreign to them and awkward and uncomfortable. All they want to do is run away from that feeling. So I think like, I forgot what we were talking about before, wear this tight into the conversation. But it was that there is there is and can be some responsibility for women to help men out. Absolutely. And I think that if women knew that behind this nervousness, if they just did a couple of things, they could unlock an amazing man, I think they would do it more. And what you said, there was a very big difference between her mothering him and reassuring him and protecting him and her just giving him in a moment. Yes. Look, it's okay. I'm interested. Yes. And he goes. The nervous system comes down. Okay. Great. I can do it. I got it. If she had to do that for the rest of the night. Oh, no, it's done. Then she's like, no, not a chance. Yeah. I have two babies at home. I'm not taking care of anything else. 100%. And it's the same thing as men telling women, like halfway through the, or at the end of the day, going, hey, this was a great time. I really had a great time getting to know you.

28:50This was wonderful. I'm looking forward to our next one. When is it? Yes. I think the best time to ask for that second day is on the first day. 100%. Yeah. You do a call back. You said it would like some sort of joke between the two of you. Some sort of inside joke that happened throughout the evening. And you said, I, I would like to do this again. Are you free next Wednesday? Are you free next Friday? Or you know what? I have to go back and check when I'm free. But I would love to see you again. I'm going to call you tomorrow. And I'll send you a couple of times that I'm free and we'll make it happen. What do you say to the guys out there? Because I hear this a lot. And I don't agree with it. But I hear it a lot. The guys out there who say, Adam and Marnie, if I tell her that I'm enjoying myself, she will stop trying completely. She checks out. She's not interested because I like her. And I have to play this game to try to make her think I'm the one that I'm the prize. What do you say to these guys? Yeah. Right. Right. Yes. I would say, are you kidding me? Correct. Are you kidding me? And I would yell at them probably for three minutes. Are you kidding me? That you would, you would allow that to happen. You are missing every single opportunity placed in front of you.

29:52And if you do not verbalize that you are in it, you're interested and you want to pursue something more, you're not going to see that woman again. Or you're going to mess her up for a very long time and she will ultimately end up hating you and talking horrible things about you to her friends. So it's a recipe for disaster. The only women I've ever seen respond well to that tactic are these so overly insecure anxious women that once you start being with them, they are calling you every hour to ask if you still like them. And they make your life awful. Yes. That's the nice girl syndrome. Yes. Exactly. And I used to be one of them. So I know that pattern very well. So what I do want to bring up to you was I do have like all of these clients now. And I don't want to say that they lean on the labels, but they are very fixated on the anxious avoidant or like they get they get very locked into it. So they want to categorize every single person that they date and that that becomes very challenging. Yes. But what I see is really happening is not what they're seeing because they just want

30:56to externalize everything and slap a label on people. Yes. And then it cuts them down. They're seeing the pattern. They're not seeing the person. Right. You have to see the person behind the pattern or you're not going to have a relationship on. Yeah. If all you do is walk around pathologizing yourself or other people, there's an issue. And people. I've been doing this for a long time. Yeah. At the beginning, I refused to even speak about attachment styles because I knew this was going to happen. You would grab it and say, oh, it's my astrology sign. I'm anxious. And I always will be. So, well, they read the book properly and they would learn they could we're not always going to be. No, correct. You are supposed to change and become secure. And you're going to do that through family and friend relationships and yes or partner, but a secure relationship is what you're trying to build. People think that a relationship is just the feelings between two people and it's not. It's a third party. It's this plant. Yeah. You and I are building this plant together. So if we're on a first date, we're planting this. We're seeing if the seeds can even take root in that soil. Is there any is a room for a relationship between us? Every date we have, we're watering and caring for this plant and we start talking about it

31:59and nurturing it grows up and begins to feed us and nurture us in which time you're like, no, we're not having this. Sometimes you burn it down. Yeah. You're like, no, no, no, no. It's not a good recipe. We're dead. This is dead. I'm killing the plant right now. Sometimes the other person is chopping the plant while you're watering. Right. Right. And you have to have boundaries. So building that together, that's crucial. Yeah. No. I agree with this. We need to get away from saying, I'm anxious, he's avoiding her. I'm anxious. She's avoiding it. You have to change your behavior. Change your behavior. Yes. It's not saying you are locked into this. I'm locked into this. That's how our dynamic is going to be forever. It just means, you know what? I realize that my anxiousness might be causing your avoidance and therefore I need to take a deep breath before I talk to you and feel a little bit more safe. And then you can stop feeling uncomfortable and wanting to run away from me. And then together, if I'm verbalizing the things that I'm feeling and thinking about you, you can calm down as well and you won't want to go away. And for me verbalizing the things that I feel about you, I probably will become less anxious instead of trying to keep them all on my head at the same time. So like that, that's the one thing that I battle against with some of the clients that

33:02I work with is that they're just like so locked in to, okay, no, but I keep picking anxious avoidant women. No, you're creating anxious avoidant women because you are not being open with your communication and expressing yourself as a man and feeding into the foreuses. Tell them this, 65% of American adults have attachment issues now, which means all that means is they spend all of their time guessing how to become safe and how to interact. If you can reduce guessing to zero, you will build a little bit of this. Yeah, exactly. It's so easy. You have built a secure relationship, but also people do not like this, though. No, they don't. They don't like that in my own relationship. And this is something we have worked on for the past 20 years because this is what I do all the time, right? For the past 22 years, I've been doing this, but for the past 45 years, I've been wanting to express myself to people who are not comfortable hearing what I want to express. I've had to adjust how I express so that they can be more receiving of it. And that's what I have learned.

34:04But with my husband, only over the past two years, has he been able to really take in and I come with feedback or I come with a request because for him, all he heard was, I'm failing. And we've talked about this in therapy so many times. I'm failing. There's shame to lean on here because I'm not doing it perfect without needing to be told by you how to do it when I'm trying to say, well, we're doing this together. We're breaking this plant and like, you don't know how many times I've fed it. If I don't tell you how many times I've fed it or you don't know that I fed it three weeks ago and haven't fed it since. But if I tell you, this is what I'm doing, this is the reaction to it. And then you also try to come and say, oh, this is what I've done. And let's try and do this. Then we work together beautifully. And that's happened over the past couple of years and it has transformed our relationship. But it's very difficult because people don't like to hear this because they feel bad when they do. And also, most people don't say it properly.

35:05I have had to learn how to say things properly because it's not just how I want to hear it. It's how the other person wants to receive it. I think most men are operating in their relationship, dating, marriage, whatever it is. They're operating as if he is her employee. She is the queen. She's the boss. She's the CEO. And he is running around. And every time she snaps her fingers and says, I don't like that color. I don't want this. This doesn't look good. He's supposed to just jump in and instantly fix it without any feedback whatsoever. Well, that's true. Well, if we get to a point where he's sitting there going every time I do something, she's just mad and upset. And all she does is bring the problems that I must be failing. He's failing to understand his role. I tell them this, your job, if you're going to build a life with a woman, your job is, you're inviting her, you participate. But be the CEO. You're here. And she's here. She's the chief operations officer. That's how women are built. It is the heart of the company making the trains run on time, telling you the problems.

36:08Her job is to bring you problems. Your job is to receive them and fix them. Yes. Well, not necessarily fix them, but work together and figuring out what to do. Actually, I don't like when there's just like, okay, sometimes I just want to express. So let's talk about the process of fixing actually because here's what I tell my men, is if she's bringing a problem and just talking about it, stop and say, I want to listen to this. I do. I need to know right now. Are you looking for fixing or are you looking for processing? Do you want to share this with me? Nine times out of 10, a woman wants to share her emotional right side brain is up. Her logical left brain is down. She wants to share and balance out with you. That's how I calm my nervous system. That's right. It's by exploding. But like throwing up everything that's going, I can handle myself 95% of the time and I don't want any help and I don't want suggestions. But when I am flailing and my nervous system is overrun, that is when I need his help of just listening and being there and giving me a hug, that's all that I need.

37:09And most men are terrified. I was just talking yesterday to Tom and Lisa Bilio in the show and Tom said something amazing there. He looked at his wife and he said, you have to understand that if I don't help you, it feels like I'm being mean and cruel to you. It feels like I'm failing you because you're sad and hurt and I'm not doing anything to fix it. Yeah. But you are. If you do what we need. Correct. Correct. So for me the other day, I was just like maxed out with my, I keep leaning on nervous system. I don't even know if that's what it was, but I was just like at my max capacity of what I could give. I was exhausted. All of these things. And I just kind of exploded. And I, over something so stupid, I had, I changed my credit card. It was so dumb. I kept thinking about like all the extra work I have to do now that I didn't have to do. And I just was so mad at myself, like there's just so many things that I was feeling in that moment. And I just was screaming in the other room because I wanted to get it out of my body.

38:09My son came in and he like hugged me and it was so sweet. He's like, I have to go to school now. I'm going to hug him. I'm okay. I'm just like, I'm getting my frustrations out. And then my husband came in and he goes, you good? And I was like, yeah, I'm good. And then he kind of left. But then he came back afterwards and hugged me. And then I stared at him. And I kind of say like, is that all you've got after seeing me be like this? And he's like, well, but I did what you wanted. I came and checked on you and then I hugged you and I was like, okay, and I really appreciate that that you're trying. But I still feel like you're just looking at me like a crazy person that's going to break in two seconds. And that makes me feel even worse. Rather than you looking at me saying like, oh, my God, this is my wife and my best friend. And I'm like, I just want to give her love right now. So which means to me that you would hug me and say like, my God, you have a lot going on right now. I'm sure you're exhausted because he knows that he knows what's going on in our family. And I know that yes, I should always reward the effort, but it doesn't feel good in

39:11the moment. It feels like unsatisfied and incomplete and disconnected. And that's the only thing that I can focus on is this disconnection. And I can't open up and relax until he gives me what I need. So then he did. He did. He hugged me afterwards. And he said, he's like, my God, I'm so sorry that I didn't say that this morning. I'm just trying to take things off of your plate by getting our son to school. He's being an employee. Yes. And I'm being a CEO. Exactly. And he said, but I should have come back to you and I don't want you to feel like I think you're too scary. What does your husband do for work just briefly? What does he do for work with industries? He is the head of broadcast at the Olympics. So he does this for a living. Yes. He actually manages human feelings for a living in a hundred percent, which is why it was even more frustrated. So he hasn't brought that still home. He's max out because he does it. It's the same thing. What's the phrase like a vase maker doesn't the cobbler's kids are always alone with no shoes. It's like, yeah, you just can't do it for your own household because you're maxed

40:14out. But now he's doing it. And it's amazing. And it. It has made us like I am pouring out with love for this man. And like all I want to do is give him everything and anything because I feel so safe, sexy, selected, and special like I can't even explain like the feeling that I have towards him compared to where I was a year ago because I wanted to stab his eyes out every second. And that's and that's what kills me for so many men. They have the skill set. So many of them are incredible at work. Yeah. They set. They manage teams. They do whatever. They come home and they die. Like what? What are you yelling at? Right. Did you say that to your employee? Yeah. No. Right. So I want to rewind rewind that what I tell men is they go, I don't know what happened. I walked in the room. I tried to give her a hug. She told me that's what she wants. I said, buddy. Let's rewind that for a second. Instead of being an employee in the home, what would you what would a CEO have done? Well, I would have walked in. I would have been calm. I said, look, looks like you've got a lot going on right now. I want you to know I'm here to help.

41:15I'm not quite sure what you need right now. Anything you need. You tell me number one. Number two, do you need a hug right now? Because it really suddenly makes me want to tear up when you're saying it. And we have no, like, there's no context for us to feel anything about that. But I can feel that as soon as you say that. But even expressing, during there, I'm not like expressing, like, I know what you need. I'm expressing, I don't know what you need. Yeah. But whatever it is. I'm here. I'll do it. Yeah. And that's magical room. I'm going to steal that. Do it, pile means. That's good. I hope you watch this episode. But, but that, that honestly, that's, that's the change that most men need. Bring your, bring your work skills into the relationship. I've never heard a woman before complain. Like, well, it's hard when you have your COO telling you to do that. Man. It is very challenging. And I don't, I don't, because I don't understand men the same way that I believe I understand women. So I don't understand what, what it is that they want to hold on to to not give that. I remember when I was 19 years old and we were in Cuba with my family.

42:20And my mom and dad were fighting. They were always like fighting and hating each other. And I went on a walk with my dad and I was like giving him suggestions of things to do with my mom. And he goes, I tried that once, like, 10 years ago. It did not work. So I never did it again. Yeah. And I was like, what is wrong with, like, I was just so, so frustrated by his stubbornness to not give her what she needs. It is like infuriating to me. But why? I'll play devil's advocate for a moment. I'm frustrated by that too. But what he said was I tried that and it went so wrong. I will never try that again. Right. But I know he only tried to smidge of it for like us. And that's a lot of money. And it's really hard because most often when men have been doing this for so long, I'm not blaming men. I love men. No, no, no. Go, go, go. But they, they've done it for so long. There's something. This is part of the safety where the woman is like, I don't trust this. No, yeah. So they're like, I'm going to push even harder to see if this is real. If I can push you 10 times and you don't crack, then I'm going to soften up. But if I push you once and you fall, then I know it's both.

43:21You've hurt me enough times. Yes. I can't get my hopes up. Yeah. So if I'm going to break you, I'm going to do it now. Yes. I tell all my guys, your wife is going to get worse before she gets better to see if you actually mean it. She's testing. 100%. Because she needs to know what she can trust. Yes. Otherwise, there is no safety. Yeah. Right? 100%. Like this stupid mistake that they decide to make a change and not tell their wife what they're doing. I'm going to try a new thing. I mean, if he comes home and goes, I've learned something that I think could work for us. I'm going to run it by you and I'm going to be trying it. I'm just telling you so that you can buy into it if you see me do it or tell me it doesn't work. I'm going to try this. I'm going to say it this way. I'm going to say it this way. I'm going to start asking you these questions. I don't need you to do anything different unless you want to. I would mount. Right. I'm going to just go home and oh, I try learn this thing. I'm going to try this thing. So he tries something wildly different with her. She's like, what's going on? Right. Instantly, the guard goes up like what's he doing? Am I being recorded? Is this for a lawyer or did he learn this from a girlfriend or is he manipulating me or what's happening?

44:22Oh, you go into a tail spin. It's crazy. What the hell is going on? And that's why so many men get negative feedback from good things they try. And then he turns around. Push you. Then he turns around like your dad and goes, well, I'm never trying that. I get it when terrible. Yeah. Of course, buddy, you scare the crap out of her. Yeah. Yes, you scared her. That's the whole thing. It's like a fear thing of what is going on that there's a change here. Somebody's either teaching you these changes or you're preparing for something else. You know, and men feel the same way. If their wife abruptly changes, everything locks down. He's terrified. He's freaked out. Like, are you having an affair? You're being nice to me. What's happening here? Yes. Right. And it's death. We all need to do. Like you said, use this. Talk. Use our words. Most of us are utterly afraid to actually tell our partner. We're going to try something different. When I work with a couple, there's a five point system that we have to hit to make anything change. And point number one is the turning point conversation. Look, this isn't working. And it sucks. And I don't want to keep doing this. But I don't want to lose you. So I want us to shift into this new area.

45:23Can you come with me? Are you willing to give this a try too? I'll lead the way. I have these things. I think could work for us. But the system isn't working. Let's change it. God, I'm amazing. Less than 60 seconds. But that's the thing that I hear from so many women. And I've had for myself as well where there's this fear to be a participant in the growth of a relationship. I don't know where that comes from for men. It's either they don't have an interest in it. There isn't. There's a fear behind it. I don't know. But when men can lead in the relationship and say, I just read this book. I saw this post on Instagram. I want to try doing this thing that I saw. I think this would really help with our communication. It's like, God God. I'd be like, oh my God. Yes. Let's have sex right now. Do you know what it is? What? Men in childhood. There's two bonding hormones. There's oxytocin which women are primed for. It's love and belonging and snuggles and things. All the things your mom is supposed to give you in childhood. But there's a second bonding hormone called vasopressin.

46:24And men have more receptors for vasopressin than women do. Women have it. But men have more. What is it? It's a bonding hormone that signals when we overcome stress and challenge together. It's the thing that makes World War II veterans get up and cry and stand up out of their wheelchairs and hug each other when they've met on stage, you know, 70 years later. It's that bond. You would think you would have that in a marriage. You're constant. You have to. But the problem is men have to be initiated into that by their fathers, by their uncles, by their grandfathers, their cousins, their brothers. They have to be initiated into the concept of working with another human being to overcome fear and pain. And men today, at least in the last 70 years, have been failing to get initiated into it. Because they're told man up and beyond your own and don't do that. Dad is dead or gone or checked out or working 16 hours a day or with a mistress or out of the house or whatever it is. So it's all these women around them who give him oxytocin but no vasopressin. So his brain says there is no one who will ever work with me. It doesn't even form as a concept.

47:24So then when I tell him, hey, well, I haven't you talked to your wife about this and built a system with her. He looks like this like a deer in the headlights. I can't do that. I can't do that. She wouldn't work. I don't think that would work. They have to be initiated into vasopressin where their system says that person has my back. That person it worked. That person it worked. Right. If they're in team sports, they learn this in team sports. If they work in construction or if they work in a company where it's interlocked. But then they also are making only get it from men. Then they learn they can only get it from men. They have to start building it with women and childhood as well. I've got three sons and three daughters where I will have three sons once the next one is born. And I make them spend time together doing puzzles and activities. I make them do problem solving together so that the boys and the girls learn. Oh, I can do this with boys and with girls and the girls can learn it too. I'm making them have that practice so that they can learn that vasopressin. And with me and with my wife. And I'm going to expand that as we get older. But that is something we have to train men into instead.

48:25We might also show them as well. Oh, absolutely. My wife and I have to solve problems all the time. Yeah, we do that as well. We started doing that a long time ago because we would have like discussions. We would have fights in front of them. But then we wouldn't repair in front of them. We started repairing in front of them. Repairing is vasopressin and oxytocin both actually. And that's phenomenal. So the kids need to feel it and it's in a good and healthy environment. They need to see it and feel it and introduce to it. Sounds like your husband probably didn't get any vasopressin as a kid. Well, no. So now that you're talking about that. So his mom has three different husbands. So that's interesting. Oh, yeah. So he wasn't living with his natural father after the age of three. Right. And they had an adopted father. So already there's distance, right? He wasn't the oldest son, was he? Well, so he has his older brother, who's seven years older, who lived with his father. So he didn't have another male in the household. But he had an interesting dynamic because it was his adoptive father. His mom and him and she always went to him. I was just going to say they formed that together,

49:25but they didn't, he didn't see the two of them. So him and his mom have like the most amazing relationship. And he loves women. My husband loves. But that's where he learned to be an employee to women. Yeah. Right there. He never learned to be vasopressin focused or to lead. He learned it. He does it in work. So wonderful. He sounds like a great guy. He's just been trained. He's just been training him. It's good. Right. So all training me too. Right. All his brain has done is said, well, when I'm with a woman that I love, I'm an employee. I stand back. She tells me what to do and everything will be fine. And you're like, no, that's killing me. Like, get in here. That's all. He needs to, he needs to just grab his skills from work. You need to say, look, buddy. I am your, I'm your chief operations officer. He's going to hate that. I'll, I'll tweak it. Right. So race for him. But you have to be the CEO. Yeah. Otherwise, I'm doing both. And you're fetching my coffee. Yeah. It's interesting because I say to him most often because there's certain times where I feel like he thinks I'm his assistant. So I saw this really interesting thing on Instagram.

50:28This guy was just walking and talking and he's like, you know what? My, my wife is the household Alexa. Everybody uses her as Alexa. Mom, where's this? Honey, where's this? Oh. In the fridge by the door where it was yesterday. Yeah. So it's like they're, they're, he's, they're all taxing me. It's very interesting. So like, I, I agree with what you're saying. But in certain situations, it's like, there's a view of me one way. And then there's a view the other way. Yes. Absolutely. And that's why that's why we're having constant communication about this stuff. That's good. I love it. I love it. I love it. It's going to express ourselves. Exactly what you're working on. And your relationship is what's, what almost every couple in America is working on at the same time. Helping men understand how to be men in a way that women will love instead of fear. Yeah. Right? Your husband probably thinks that you would be angry or afraid if he stepped into the role he's actually naturally for. Yeah. Because he's a big guy. He's trying not to hurt you. He's trying to be kind. Yeah. And that is very challenging for me. That's the thing.

51:28Like, because I get to work with all of these men, I, I realize how, how, how confusing it is for them. Because they're like, wait, but you say this thing. You say this thing. We do. We say a lot of things that we want. And as women, we understand that you can be all of these things. We're multitaskers. We know how to do this while we're doing this. Five percent. Men are single focus. So it's a bit challenging for them to say, okay, if I'm, but if I'm making her feel safe, but then I'm also being assertive, how do I put those two together? Yes. Women understand that very intuitively, but men have a, a bigger challenge doing that. And that's why, that is why I think a lot of men come to me for information because I, I am able to show them. Like how to do it properly. And when you hear it from a man, it's not great to have that example from a man, but it doesn't land the same way. As when, when I say it for them, because then they're like, oh, that wouldn't offend you or that wouldn't scare you. I'm like, no, that would actually make me extremely attracted to you. That shocks most men. Yeah. Most men spend so much time trying to accommodate and be gentle and be helpful and sweet. We get a bad rap, right?

52:28Everybody thinks men are just, they don't care, but they care so much. They care so much. They're putting themselves into the little pigeonhole. Yeah. And it's not, it's not where men belong. No, and that's the thing. Like I, people have called me a misogynist before, right? Like I am such a fan of men. And it's because I, I didn't love men before. I walked all over men for a big portion of my life, even though I loved them more than I actually really liked women. And now it's, it's sort of evened out. But I absolutely love men, but they, they have a bad rap right now. I love Scott Galloway and all the things that he's saying for men. I know a lot of women do not like what he's saying. But, and I love it even more now that I have two sons. Like I was biking with my son. And he's like, there's no boy power signs up anywhere. And I was like, that's an interesting conversation. But there absolutely should be 100%. Because it's a personal evil. Yeah, that's right. Yes, exactly. And I've heard other moms say, well, you know, it's, it's women's turn right now. I'm like, eh, but they are. He's 11. And he wasn't part of this movement of like misogyny and, you know,

53:29the, the patriarchy. So right now he's in a world where women are doing the same thing. So it's, it's, it's very, yes. So I have a soft spot for men. So that's why I think I can speak to them. And it resonates when I say things to do. Yeah. One thing I see a lot is men are gravitating toward like yourself. Really intelligent, eloquent female speakers who are taking the side of. I love men. I have a husband. I have kids. I care about men. But here's what nobody has bothered to understand about men. Yeah. They're, they're feeling heard and seen for the first time ever. And I think in our world, that's amazing. It's amazing. But it's, I don't say this carefully. Men have to go a step beyond. Yeah. Because worrying what everybody thinks of you is exactly what makes you unattractive to women. Yes. Being attentive and responsive to a woman. Great. Being reactive to a woman.

54:30Happy or sad or angry or, or subservient. Reactive is terrible. Respond with your ethics, with your goals, with your values. But you have to be the fullness of who you are. Yeah. Managing your nervous system. Long-term goals. Knowing who you are. Helping her feel special. Helping her feel safe. Helping her feel sexy. All of those things have to be there. Yeah. But that takes work. It does. It takes other men in your life. Yeah. Men have to be men together, and men are not being men together anymore. I think men are being men together, but they're being angry men together. Tell me more. Well, so I was invited, maybe like seven years ago, to come on to a podcast for this community called Make Tao, which I'm sure you know about. I do. Yeah. And I was like, I looked it up. I was like, this sounds phenomenal. This sounds great. Men going their own way. It's great. On paper, it sounds fun. Like heaven. And I got on. I was like, oh, no, you're angry men. Yes. You do not like me. Yes. And you are really mad at the women in your lives. And I understand that for them. But they had a big community of men who were supporting that anger rather than men who were like, hey, dude, like, no, this is what's going on.

55:36And this even happens with like, you know, male-to-male and female-to-female relationships. Like female-to-female relationships. Typically, we reinforce ideas for women to make them angrier. Same thing with men. Like, what kind of relationship does that to? She's a real bitch. And it's because there's lack of knowledge there. And there's a shared bitterness between the two sides. So even it's funny, like, when I started doing this work 22 years ago, after the first year, I started to even notice a shift in the advice that I was giving to my female friends. Because before, I would kind of listen, but like, not really believe the advice that I was giving. And say, oh, you're better. You deserve this. And then my advice started to shift to, but that's not how men work. That's not how they work. That's not what they want. That's not what they think. And women were like, what? And it was very weird for them to hear that information. And for me, because I was so immersed in it, I was like, no, this is like, this is how these men work. And they don't want the things that you're saying. And they're not going to respond to you ghosting them for three days. They're not going to come chasing after you, especially if they're a good man who values himself.

56:37A really anxious and uncomfortable man is going to chase you forever. And then you're going to hate him when he catches you. So it's just, I just don't like to ride on what you were saying that yes, they need men around them. But they need, they need good men who know how to do exactly what you and I are talking about. Good men need good men harder to find. It's actually becoming a lot easier because people are educating themselves. But yeah, most communities isn't exist. No, I think most men are afraid to be around other men or even talk to them specifically, especially nice guys. They're so afraid of judgment. They tend to gravitate toward women instead. Oh, yeah. And again, they have a female best friend or like three female best friends. Yeah, that's why I gravitate towards men. 100% when I was younger because like women were so intimidating to me. Right. I was like, I don't know how to connect with them. But I know how to connect with guys really easily. It's much safer to be friends with them. And they're more fun. They don't talk about real stuff. Yes. And I liked that. But then that shifted for me. And I wanted to understand women. And I also want to understand myself. So I started becoming more friends with women and doing what I'm doing for a living.

57:37And and actually as my passion. But it made me be more open to women and then actually act differently with the men in my life. Yes. Yeah. I think men, I mean, men have always needed good men in their life. They need a father, a grandfather, uncles, cousins, brothers, all these men around you that teach you how to be a good man in yourself so that you can actually be calm enough. Yeah. To then also talk to a woman. Yeah. I think we need that balance. We also need women who are not burned out. We need women who are not stressed and angry. How do you do that? That would be magic. How do you make it happen? I mean, to be blunt, it is a man's job to create that safety for women in our life. That is our job. But men, when I say that, a lot of men are used to being beaten to the ground and saying, you're the reason the world's bad over here. And then you're still the reason the world's bad. Even the women control it now. Now you're still being bad, right? Yeah. So men just, they say, well, I'm just going to hit like a piñata over here. Yeah. It's not that. To put my head down. Right. And if you ask me for a hug, I'll give you one. Like that sets back, back to that.

58:37But I think that men, men need to understand that the thing that's going to make them fulfilled and happy is also actually the thing that's going to make women fulfilled and happy. Oh, my God. Yes. Like I can even see. So now that my husband gets me more, like he feels prouder about 100%. Yes. And I do have to thank Instagram, honestly, for, for, for switching a lot of things. Like we've gone to, we did safe conversations. We did a lot of therapy. And like I obviously, I've tried to coach horribly. I've tried to coach my husband. And that's what I do for so long. And obviously I need my own coaching too. But I first went to chat GPT. And I wrote in chat GPT because I was just like at my wit's end in our relationship because he had taken on this huge job where he was just completely removed and had nothing left to give to me. And I was thinking on everything and I worked full time. Anyway. And I went to chat GPT and I wrote as him. And I said, my wife is actually like a huge bitch. She keeps snapping at me for it. Like I want to really be him. And these are the things that she's saying to me. What the hell does it mean?

59:37I feel like I've done everything and I can't do anything anymore. And chat GPT wrote back and said, oh my God. Like I feel so bad for your wife. She's, she's bidding for connection with you. She's saying she feels a lot like all of everything that I'm feeling that I've said to him. It's said in a much more calm way. And I sent that over to him. And he's like, oh my God, thanks for sending me this. So I started sending him a couple more. That was the first thing. And then obviously Instagram was hearing me. So I started being served up all of these different videos. That would be about the dynamic that was difficult for us. Where I would come to him to express something and he would get really defensive and angry. And then it would leave with me just being silent. Because I'd like, what the hell is the point in talking? You're not going to hear me. Nothing's going to get solved. And I would show these to him. And I asked him first. Like, can I show you these posts that I found on Instagram? It really talks about our specific situation. He goes, yes, I'm open to it. I'm always, that's the wonderful thing about him. He's always open to doing any work and wanting to help things out between the two of us. Because he just like wasn't, it wasn't clicking for him. And so I showed him these, I have like 10 posts that I sent over to him.

1:00:39And he watched them. And then I, it's like three days later, I woke up in the morning and I came downstairs. And he hugged me. And he said, how can I make your life easier today? And I like literally just started crying and hugged him back. And I was like, oh, you watched the post. It was amazing. And he's like, yeah, he's like, I, I, he's like, there's some things I don't agree with. We can talk about that later. But there's a lot of things that like I wasn't seeing before. And I, I'm understanding it differently. He's like, you can, you can keep sending me those posts if you want. And I was like, okay. And I'm telling you like that shifted so many things. And because of that, we have this very warm relationship right now. We still have battles obviously with human beings. But there's always this like really nice warmth that we go back to now, which is really very safe. And wonderful. For all the men who are watching right now, for all the women who are sending this to their boyfriend. Like, what were the Instagram posts that you sent? Right. I sent it to like about 15 of my, of my friends to send to their husbands. And I will tell you one thing that I do realize about my husband.

1:01:41He's very open. There are so many husbands out there who are like, I'm not going to watch it. It's like, who literally say that? But they're like, but I want to feel, I want to figure out what's going on between us. But they won't watch it. Yeah. It's, it's, there's a pride thing there. I don't know what it is. But it's, it's really sad because it can easily shift the dynamic of a relationship. For all the men who are watching this saying, Adam and Marnie, this sounds like a lot of work. It's not. It's more work the other way. It is more taxing on your box. It's like hair was falling up before, like I had so much rage inside of me before because I was just bunting my mouth because I was done saying things so walking around the house tense couldn't fall asleep at night. Like, it's way more work the other way than it is to do this once you get past that hump. It's so much easier. What does for the men in the room? What does your husband get out of all this? I know it's, I know what it is. Happy wife. So happy wife, happy life, which is the sentence I hate hearing that they don't use it properly.

1:02:41But he gets to say that because now he's put in the work and I put in the work to make that happen. And he's actually making me happy instead of just agreeing with me all the time. Because that's what most men think that means. Happy wife, happy life. Oh, how do you have a great relationship? The secret is just saying yes to everything she asks. I want to punch men in the face when they say that. And they think that they're being so cute and so sweet. It is not the truth. And it infuriates me. What does a happy wife look like in the home for him? Oh, my God. Someone who's not tense. Listen, I'm tense and anxious because I have an 11 year old and I have a 9 year old and we run a household. So that tension exists. But it's the added tension and it's the added anxiety that isn't there anymore. And I just feel like when my husband walks in the door that it's relief versus an added tension piled on to everything that I'm doing. Right? Because before it would be like, oh, great. Here's this person who hates me and who doesn't find me sexy and who is going to add way more on to my plate because he's not going to see me when he walks in the door.

1:03:41And then I'm going to feel sad and very unattractive. So that piled on top of all the things that I have to do in the household made my life miserable. And I've always said to my husband, if you've got me, I've got everything else. And you just take care of me. And I realized over time, like I wasn't being very clear on what that meant. And even when I was being clear, it wasn't computing for him on what that meant. Yeah. I was getting it now. He's getting it now. Thanks to Chad GPT. Thanks to Chad GPT. Thank you, AI overlords for fixing our. I'm not mad at AI. I'm totally into it. I think it's great. I love that. That was fantastic. This has been a wonderful episode. Thank you so much for all the men out there who are watching. Life can get so much better when you really embrace who you are. And for all the women out there who've been cheering this entire episode, share it with somebody. We really need to have more and more people here that this is possible in a relationship. Wanting for everybody out there who wants to learn more, where can they find you? I can go to fwithher.com. This is for the men. So I put together a little free mini course for any men that are watching on how to easily create

1:04:47attraction with any woman in your life, which is going to teach many of the skills of the four S's that we talked about before. And then for any women that want to listen to me, I have a show. It is going to be for women as well called turn her on. And trust me, you can share every episode with amazing men in your life. I love that. Thank you so much. You guys know who I am. Adam Langsmith, the attached and specialist. I'm going to be here all week. As they always used to say, but find me on Adam Langsmith.com. Me and my team certified coaches, all the attachment work you could possibly need. Leave some comments on this episode and come back for the next one. We'll see you there.