Why New York City Is Restricting Artificial Intelligence in Public Schools

0:00From W and YC, this is NYC Now. I'm Janepi Air. Hope you're enjoying this Labor Day. It's the last break before students return to New York City Public Schools. Want to know who won't be returning to school this year? AI. At least for some students. Let's jump into it. New York City is overhauling how artificial intelligence can be used in public schools this year. Students from 2k to 8th grade will be barred from using AI. That means no AI for instruction or tutoring. The ban will last one year. For high school students, they'll have limited access to the technology. The city is also limiting screen time for younger students and disabling AI features in dozens of programs that schools had previously been allowed to use. Mayor Zoram Mamdani announced the policy at a press conference just one week before the start of school. He pushed back on the idea that schools should embrace AI simply because the technology is so powerful.

1:02The tech industry wants us to believe that AI in early education is not only inevitable, but that it is necessary. We do not see it that way. The policy marks a change from the guidance the city released back in March, when officials still allowed some student use of AI, but with caution. A large number of parents rejected that guidance and pressured the city for an outright moratorium on AI in schools. Parents also called for limits on screen time. At that same press conference, schools Chancellor Kamar Samuels explained why the city wants younger students doing more work themselves. They learn best when they are wrestling with hard problems, when they're getting it wrong, when they're trying again, and finally getting it right. That struggle isn't a flaw in the system. It is learning. The AI moratorium in the nation's largest school system reflects a growing lonesse throughout the country with how the technology could disrupt society.

2:03So how did the city get from its earlier approach to this one? Where will AI still be allowed? And are there loopholes? WNYC and Gothamist reporter Jessica Gould has been reporting on the changes. Jessica, welcome to the show. Thank you. We talked back in March about this same topic, and schools Chancellor Kamar Samuels announced back then that he would allow some student use of AI. I'm wondering what changed between March and now? Yeah, this new policy that was released in March came after years of deliberation with working groups and task forces that the city convened to think about what is the right AI use for schools and students. And they released this traffic light policy that said some uses were red, prohibited, some were green, meaning go largely on the teacher side. But for the category, the broad and controversial category of student use of AI, that was considered a yellow light, meaning that educators should use careful discretion about when and where students can use AI in their assignments in the classroom.

3:10And this traffic light approach immediately spurred a major backlash, especially among parents, who criticized it as vague, and thousands of parents petitioned for a moratorium, saying that there shouldn't be any AI use in schools for at least two years. They cited the negative impacts on kids' brain development and learning concerns about data privacy. And also the tremendous impact that AI has on environmental resources and concerns about climate change. They also pushed for limits on screen time. Then before summer break, Chancellor Samuels said he had heard parents' concerns and that officials were reconsidering the policy. He also told principals to pause all software purchases until the city released revised rules. So that brings us to the most recent announcement last week. Okay, so tell us more about how the city justified this ban. Sure, so the ban is for all AI from 2K, as you said, up through eighth grade.

4:16And they said that it's really important that students learn how to do what they call the productive struggle of figuring out answers to questions and learning on their own. Here's what Chancellor Samuels said when he was on all things considered for WNYC last week. Oftentimes they might, let's say, take the cognitive load off. They might give students an answer to a question when they ask. They might do various things, but we're going to be really looking closely at that. And those are the kinds of things that we're concerned about, right? Where our students are not doing the kind of thinking that they need to do. And so we want to make sure we're vetting tools. Cognitive load off. What does he mean there? I think that refers to the shortcuts where AI solves your math problems or writes your essays, does all your research. Educators talk a lot about how important it is to have the discomfort of pushing yourself to learn something new. That is how you learn. And also you have to become comfortable with that discomfort. And I think that a lot of our technology kind of takes away the need for getting a custom to that feeling.

5:26You know Jessica one thing I hear in conversations often is that AI is making people dumber. And it seems like the school's chancellor is kind of nodding to that and trying to keep students away from that. Well, I think that you know the city sees that there could be positive impacts particularly for older students. But one thing that Mayor Mom Donnie said in this week's press conference was that he has yet to see a study that proves any positive results from using AI for young kids, except for those that are published by the technology industry. You mentioned that the city is putting new limits on screen time for younger students. What will those limits look like? Yeah, this is a limit on one to one individual devices. So that's individual laptops or tablets. You know after the pandemic it became a priority that every student have a laptop or tablet to bring home in case they needed to use it for remote learning.

6:27Under this policy most students from preschool through second grade won't be permitted to use these individual devices in classrooms. And this comes as parents have said that even the littlest kids spend too much time on these devices as part of the curriculum. There's also new limits on laptop and device use for students in third through eighth grade. They're putting a time limit per day, which didn't exist before. But there are exceptions for if you're a student with disabilities and you need assistive technology like if you're dyslexic and you need something that's going to read the text to you or that you can speak into and it takes your notes down. There's also exceptions for students learning English who need help with translation and there are exceptions for assessments that are going to be given periodically as part of the regular course of school. So let's switch now to talk about high school students because they're being treated differently under this policy. They can actually use AI but with some limitations. Can you talk about that?

7:28Yeah, what Mayor Momdani said here was that older students need to have some exposure to AI and be given critical skills about how to deal with it. So they're going to be rolling out these artificial intelligence literacy courses throughout high schools to teach kids about AI, the dangers and the potential. There's also going to be a limited number of pilot programs that schools can opt into where they use a particular vetted AI program for a limited amount of time per week. And then also AI can be used for coding and robotics or for career and technical education. The city is not placing any official screen time limits on high schools at this point. I want to talk about teachers. Have you talked to any teachers about this new policy? I mean, can they still use AI? They can. They can use AI for lesson planning and organization, maybe for some general communication with families and for translation.

8:32They can't use it for grading. They can't use it for behavior and discipline. And they can't use it for decisions about student graduation or promotion. I talked to some teachers who were concerned that some very useful things that they had been able to do with AI before in terms of, you know, kind of creative projects in the classroom that they might not be able to do anymore because of this. But most educators so far have said they think this is a step in the right direction. Yeah, it's interesting that you bring that up. I have a friend who's a teacher and they talk about how, you know, all of the administrative stuff that you don't really think about or consider when you pursue a career as a teacher. But AI usually helps with that. Right. There are questions about data privacy of students and anything that teachers do has to go through the vetting process of whether it meets the privacy standards for the city. But yeah, teachers are overworked and there are arguments among some teachers that if you can free up some of the time that they spend on lesson planning and creating materials that they can spend more time working individually with students, which is what's most important.

9:47So teachers got to walk the walk as well. Yeah. Now the teachers union has raised concerns about whether rolling out this policy within a week before school starts without clear plans for who's in charge of enforcing it is going to put a lot of the onus on teachers at the last minute and they're concerned about that. Okay. So I understand that you spoke with an education advisor to the mayor. What did they say? We education reporters talk to some of the officials in charge of actually executing this program after the mayor and chancellors remarks. We wanted to know if city officials feel like they have a real grasp on how many AI tools are actually being used in schools right now. And what they say is that they know of about 40 programs in use with AI that they plan to pull, but there might be more and they're going to be looking to see what those are as the year goes on. So alish Brady, a senior education advisor to the mayor said the education department will be working with vendors to turn off all AI features or cancel the products.

10:57AI products, including those embedded into your one curriculum where the AI can be turned off will be turned off so that includes a mirror and an HMH products you mentioned. If a product cannot have the AI turned off, then that will be taken off the board entirely in our schools. We've been talking with WNYC and Gothamist Education reporter Jessica Gould about New York City's new restrictions on AI in public schools, including a one year ban for students through eighth grade. But those restrictions only go so far. After the break, what happens when students can still use AI at home and how the city will decide whether this new approach is actually working? Stay close. This week on the New Yorker Radio Hour, Sarah Longwell has the word of advice for Democrats who want control of Congress. People should be all over corruption and you do it with the contrast of saying you are getting poorer. Trump is in a war getting rich off of oil.

12:01Like seize that. Be outraged by it. Tell people how it's harming them. Sarah Longwell, on our new book, How to Eat an Elephant. That's the New Yorker Radio Hour from WNYC. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This is in YC now. I'm Janay Pierre. We're talking with WNYC and Gothamist reporter Jessica Gould about New York City's new restrictions on AI in public schools. So Jessica, you've done a lot of reporting on how AI has already transformed assignments and you reported that homework has changed a lot because of AI. Writing assignments have changed because of AI. I mean kids are going to be kids, right? The city can restrict AI but students can still use it when they get home, right? Right. This moratorium is about what happens in school. Teachers, principals, the chancellor and mayor Mamdani can't control what kids do once they leave a school building.

13:02In recent years teachers have been transforming their assignments and their lesson plans so that a lot, if not all, of the writing happens in class to prevent AI use and cheating. So we've gone back to blue books and writing by pen and paper and pencil. But in terms of take home assignments, it's a huge challenge. And I've talked to teachers who use AI detection software, but they say that it's hard to prove beyond a doubt that AI was actually used even if the software flags a paragraph or a whole essay. I recently heard about teachers embedding little clues in their assignments like in white font that the kids can't see but then is picked up if you copy paste and they try to catch it that way. But even then if they can definitively prove that AI was used, there aren't clear punishments outlined for infractions and chancellor Samuels acknowledged that and he said they're working on it.

14:02I think this just like the phone band really opened up a strong conversations between schools and home and schools and community about how to collectively approach our young people. You know, all of all of schooling requires really strong partnership with parents and really strong engagement and this, this I know will continue to fuel that conversation. Secondly, I think it's going to be important that we continue to work with schools and work with teachers around professional learning with regards to detection devices and detection mechanisms and so on. What I took away from those comments is that there's no silver bullet for this. They don't have a solution yet. You know, Jessica, it has me thinking about money here. You know, when it comes to these detection mechanisms and this technology, I mean, this is just something else that city schools will have to pay for, right?

15:04That's true. Although, perhaps there's going to be some money saved by canceling some of these AI contracts. Okay, you know, there's another question of whether these restrictions actually accomplish what the city wants them to write and that is how will the city determine whether this policy is working? Well, officials say they're going to be seeking comment from educators, students and families about the policy. That's the reason for this one year moratorium and they're going to create yet another task force to study how things are going. Although we've seen that in recent years, these task forces can't keep up with how quickly the technology is changing. And we've seen this, you know, at all levels of society and governance that artificial intelligence is growing at an incredible pace with minimal regulation. You talked about what you heard from teachers about this new policy, but have you heard any reactions from parents?

16:04Yeah, some parents who have been fighting hard for an AI moratorium called the policy a productive step, but they say there are too many exceptions and they want to see the AI ban extend to all grades, not just through middle school and for at least two years. Generally, I've heard support from parents and teachers, though there are also plenty of educators and families who say that these tools can be helpful and that school is exactly where you should learn how to use tools like this responsibly. That's WNYC and Gotham is education reporter Jessica Gould. Thanks a lot, Jess. Thank you. After our conversation, we took a trip to four green park to hear what people there thought about the city's new restrictions on AI in public schools. There we met Brooklyn parent, Ellie Bea. She has a 10 month old and she told us she already thinks of AI a lot like screen time.

17:04The longer that we can keep kids away from it, knowing that it is inevitable, I think the better that they can build their intellectual and social skills. So, not a bad idea. We try not to have it with our 10 month old, but I know at some point just being out in the world, it will happen. I don't know if there's a right age. I mean, we're addicted as adults, so maybe we're still too young for a screen time. He also met Samir Santee. He works in higher education and was with his partner and their one year old. He told us he's worried about what AI could do to our ability to think. I'm quite concerned about it. We're very, very worried about the way AI is degrading our species ability to think. What do you think about the Mondani administration's new policy that teachers aren't allowed to use AI to instruct students under ninth grade? I was very excited to see it. I think it's an important step in the right direction towards ensuring that our kids actually get an education from trained human beings for the foreseeable future.

18:09Alisa Fortunato was with her husband and their two children, Andrea and Nicola. They're 10 and 13 years old. She told us AI can be useful, but students should learn and create with their own minds first. It could be useful to learn how to use it as a tool, but you have to be older. Also, I think that even older students, first studying, learning, creating with their minds, then they can learn how to use it. It's a tool, so I agree. I don't think it could be useful for teaching students. I ask the artificial intelligence to translate me something. I am not learning. I am losing an opportunity. So, of course, it depends. Finally, Keith Medkev told us he already sees smartphones and Google changing how much people have to remember for themselves. For him, AI adds another layer to that.

19:15It's just like phones. I used to know 10, 15 phone numbers. Now, I don't even know my own numbers. Because you just press button. So, I think that takes away from people just thinking and using their own head. What do you think about the city's new restrictions on AI in public schools? We want to hear from you. Send us a message at NYCNow at WNYC.org. We might use your comments in a future episode. Thanks for listening to NYC Now from WNYC. I'm Janette Pierre. Enjoy the holiday. See you next time.