Why It Feels Impossible to Get Hired Right Now

0:00Your future at this office is limited. We will keep you on the website for six more months and then you can take this quote unquote offer to another firm so that you can move on with dignity. But in reality, we're not terribly interested in having you here for very long, right? And you usually are told explicitly when the cold offer is as a person. Welcome back everyone. The job market feels strong or at least looks strong on paper, but often our experiences do not match that. Today, we're talking about the vibe session, employers, labor, and how to bring them together. Let's get into it. Carolyn, how are you doing today? What's going on? We're already having a busy morning. It's 10 a.m. in Seattle and the office is full and yeah, it's getting another day in paradise. Yeah, that's what we like to say every day, so. So today, we're getting into why it's so hard to get hired or why it feels more importantly, why it feels so hard to get hired. What are your thoughts on the topic as we sort of lead into this? Also, there has been a lot of recent headlines

1:00saying that the market's better. Things have really improved in the beginning of 2026. New York Times had reported in January that there was 130,000 jobs that were added. Unemployment at 4.3%. Which, it's pretty good for this macro. Yeah, I was gonna say, so yeah, it sounds like it's like, well, great, you can come true type thing. And it's like I think a lot of people candidates and just across the board, everyone's like, why am I still not getting hired? And so I think there's a lot of variables that play with that. I think, primarily, something that's not totally outlined in those headlines is that it's only being added to a couple of markets, healthcare, construction, things like that. AI. AI for sure. Yeah, I think that's a huge portion. Right, because it's the, I always love the term vibe session. Coin, coin by Kyla Scanlon who's a very respected millennial, like economics commentator and she was basically saying, hey, the economy on paper, the economists keep getting up in front of, you know, at their forums every eight months and being like, wow, we've got 130,000 more jobs per month or whatever.

2:03And everyone should be hunky-dory now, right? But the economic reality on the ground is that the consumer price index has risen faster over this last four-year period. Yeah. And it almost hasn't any time and recorded since we started tracking and like a century and change ago. And I really want to speak to that unevenness. Yes. Like how crowded and competitive it is because now AI, not just the AI industry, but the use of AI is now making it super, super easy to access a huge number of job applications at once. And I'm interested to know like what your thoughts on the impact that is from the perspective of a firm or the perspective of a job applicant. Yeah. So it is interesting because I mean, again, like I know we've talked about this before about how many candidates, I mean, a lot of candidates are using AI right with their application. Well, a lot of firms and companies are also using AI to meet you out. But it's probably not in the way that you think it is. Cold, cold war AI. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's a lack of a better word. Yes. And I'm curious to ask you your thoughts on this because applicant tracking systems, ATSs, right, have incorporated

3:06smart AI-like tools for like 10 years. Yeah. Right. So my observation is what has actually changed is that now candidates also it's democratized the AI because before only enterprise tools really had that ability to scale, you know, keyword searching, optimization, whatever tools they wanted to apply to their screening processes. Now the candidates can use it in an accessible way. And that's been a big shift. Is that a fair assessment? It is definitely. And I think too, it's like, again, like within reason, we've seen candidates that have gone through a job description. And it's like, again, they just pull out certain words, key words, all of that into their resume. And that is something too that an ATS can kind of, again, trick an ATS with that because it's like you're looking for certain key words. You stuff the margins, white text in the margins, or super tiny text in the margins. I though ATSs have gotten a lot better at tracking that. I think the bottom line is that like role application volume

4:07has exploded. Yes. It's gotten, in my opinion, way out of hand for everyone involved. And applications for our jobs, we get hundreds of applications from law students across the country for like three to five summer associate positions a year. We're a small firm. Like it's huge. It's gigantic volume. And I don't know how to deal with it as the subject matter expert. A lot of what we do here is we're trying to connect the candidates with the best fit. And there's just a sea of homogenization. There is. Yes. And it's interesting too, because shouting out, we just posted two new jobs yesterday, which is exciting. Shameless plug. Shameless plug. Let's go. And the majority of the applicants we've gotten are still in law school. So that just kind of rings you right now. For the senior associate position. Yeah, exactly. Senior council position. So anyways, yes, that is true, but I thought they're ambitious. I do too.

5:08And again, like it's a very competitive field. And so everyone's just again, you're just trying to get ahead of things. I think too, though, with again, an ATS, like the benefit of that is having more of like, again, like you can have your applicant tracking system, or you're able to manage your candidate flow. And a lot of them these days, you're able to track any and all communication you've had with the candidate. So if you've talked with them, you know, two years ago, you're able to come back onto that email, or if the recruiter has since moved on, you have all the context, which is great. And then there's also again, probably which we can look into more so as well, for like the law school, the law student track of things is having more of like a CRM-based thing where there's like warm interaction, warm touches with them, instead of having them have to go through a formal application process. We'll be right back. Support for the show comes from time. Time captures every billable email on cases and turns them into client-friendly time entry descriptions completely hands-free. No more lost time, no more pre-billing reviews, just up

6:09to 30% more revenue. Get a free demo at THYME.org slashfactor. Thanks for your patience. Welcome back. So what's been very interesting about working in the legal field is, you know, I started at a boutique firm. I'm back at a more boutique firm that's growing, but I've also worked in big law. I've worked in New York. I've seen all the different salaries that have gone into this. And there's a huge discrepancy between a boutique regional firm salary and a big law salary, particularly in some of these like higher cost markets. The bi-modal distribution strikes. Yes. It's one of, and it's so insidious, because like the top third, we have a graph. We'll put the graph on screen right now. It does tell a story. Yeah, for those of you watching on either on YouTube or on Spotify, shameless plug, those are our platforms of choice. It's that law is one of the most unequal job markets. It definitely is, yes. Right, legal pay is in two different worlds and a high increases output per lawyer.

7:10But law firm comp is still not built to reward output. It's usually built to reward volume. So what's interesting about the graph that people are hopefully going to be able to see is usually again, if you're looking at like someone in just any job market, like myself as a recruiter, it's like, you know, I started out as a recruiting coordinator and you work your way up. And there's a bell curve. And that's what's so interesting about this graph is that it's literally like, dude, dude, like it's like a V. Yeah. And so it's like, it's, you know, like 20% of everyone who's making a decent amount of money in the middle. You've got 40% of everyone making dirt money. Yeah. If I can be by ratio of not dirt money, but like by ratio of going through law school, effort to reward, it is a dirt ROI. Yeah. Right. It's like 60,000, I think like average lawyer salary is like $82,000 in some markets, right? 82 to 60. And big law is pulling that upwards. Right. So it's probably more like 60. And way at the other end is this massive 500,000 spike

8:11just for the top 20%. Yep. And this is why I said it was so insidious because it's just 20% is very bad odds. But it's just plausible enough of an odd that the law student can self insert themselves into that fantasy and everyone goes crazy. Yep. Right. That if it was like 10 to 5%, then people would be like, I'm not, you know, more people would be like, it's just such a big gap. Yeah. Yeah. But 20%. Yeah. 20%. Yeah. That's almost one out of four. Yeah. And if it's almost one out of four, then that's almost 50%. And you wonder why law schools are so cutthroat. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I'd be interested to hear, tell us more about like what a grad goes through when they head to big law. Because I would love that from an insider perspective. Yeah. So usually you're going to go through and the idea is, is that you want to summer at a top firm. So, you know, usually you'll go through an OCI process. That's what we've talked about that, that it gets earlier and earlier, which is crazy. But the, the, the person is dilemma. Yes. Yeah.

9:11Yes. Exactly. And so again, you're just, you're in competition. You're trying to go and you're, you know, you go to a good law school. You go out, you know, in big law. And you're wind and dined. And you make all these connections. And it's great. Yeah. And it's like you're living the high life. And then, you know, hopefully, if all goes well, you'll be asked back, you know, the further summers that have gone on. And then you'll hopefully get an offer to return there as a associate. Which is, which is very difficult not to do. Yes. Right. You really have to mess it up. You really got a, you really got a, wasn't there like the big law bider this last summer, where like she was, there was an associate in, in New York somewhere. Yeah. I forget the firm. But she was literally just going around biting people at the functions at like work events. And they know offered her. Yeah. And that's what it took to know offer. As she was actively like attacking her co-works and partners. Yep. And managers, she bit a partner. That's very crazy. And I cannot believe I've never heard that story. No, no, no. It was, it may be an urban myth, but it is, it is non zero, non zero chances misinformation.

10:12Yeah. But like it is such a great encapsulation, even, even nonetheless, it is such a great encapsulation of what it takes to get cold offered. Yeah. Which is to say a cold offer for those of you that do not know, is when the firm sits down and says, here is an offer. Yeah. However, your future at this office is limited. We will keep you on the website for six more months. And then you can take this, this quote unquote offer to another firm. Yep. So that you can move on with dignity. Yeah. But in reality, we're not terribly interested in having you here for very long. Yeah. Right. And you usually are told explicitly when the cold offer is as a courtesy. Yes. Anyways. And I want to know like how, how mismatched are the expectations of students versus that reality once they actually get into the workforce, not the summer. It's huge. I mean, usually like again, you've been wine dined. You have this great experience. And it's you step in as a, you know, first year associate. And you're working crazy. Crazy hours.

11:12Crazy hours. Yes, you know, you are. You're getting an, you know, an excellent salary. But I know we've talked about this too that it's like, you know, if, well, you're getting paid basically to do two jobs. So that's the exact like the hours you would put it in. Because like as a manager, if I could pay someone $300,000 and have them work $250,000 jobs, incredible. Yep. I would do that right now. It's yeah. Like that's a mate. Like the differential if you compare hours to dollars received is actually very middle. Like you can make the same amount of dollars to hours worked. Yeah. You can make that same ratio at a much smaller firm. You will just work less hours. Yeah. But nonetheless, big law has sort of tricked the market into being like, this is acceptable. This is prestige. This is normal. Yeah. But I want to know about the lateral opportunities. Yeah. Because there's an argument to be made that like big law. Okay. Yeah, it's ass. And everything we've said is true. Yep. But the lateral opportunity, like you put in your hours, you do a year to one to four years, just enough to be respectable.

12:13And then you go and you join a boutique firm or you go in house to the promised land of a tech company where everyone wears flip flops and is like inexplicably unprofessional. Yeah. And they're pajamas. And, you know, and that's the goal. Yeah. Right. That's why it's, that's why the prestige is because if you can do that, you can do anything. Yep. Right. That's the argument. And I want to know if that tracks. Yeah. So it is interesting. Because I think again, most people kind of join and they're thinking like, I'm either going to be ticked the law firm trajectory and, you know, take the partnership track that direction at a law firm or, you know, maybe they want a lateral to another firm, maybe they want to look into, you know, another practice group or things like that that could be a transferable skill. Or, you know, maybe they want to go in house. And I mean, all directions are good directions. Again, it's a good opportunity if you feel like you're maybe not getting the mentorship that you're getting at your current firm. If you feel like you, you know, maybe even want to do partnership track. And there's just, you know, not enough opportunities there. Like that's a good opportunity to try to lateral to another firm.

13:16Um, I do think assuming that's where agencies come into play right before this. I was out lateral link, which is a legal recruiting agency. And again, it's, it's hard when you're an associate and you're working crazy amounts of hours to try to find your next job. And so. And when you're told that if you miss OCI, your life's over. Yeah. Yeah. Which, okay, I, I will admit there's a little truth to that when you are a student. Because if I look at someone, if someone applies to work for us in their 3L when they're studying for the bar, nothing wrong with that. Just to be clear, to join us the next fall after they pass the bar. That's, that's not the problem. The problem is that if I look at their resume and they struck out on OCI two years and no one would take them, that's when I do get a little concerned. I'm like, well, like, it's not a rejection. It's just like, I will ask them, hey, were you like caring for a loved one? Were they accentuating circumstances or could you just not get hired by anyone? Yeah. Right. That narrow exception aside, once you are in the workforce, it matters much less.

14:18Yes. Right. I've seen people go boutique at a law school. Yeah. And then two to four years later, they go into big law. Yeah. Right. Because they pivot the other way. Right. And then I've seen, of course, the converse is they go to big law and they always end up at firms just like this. Right. Which is, which is to be fair, much more common of a story. But I really, the message in the takeaway here is that your life is not over if you strike out on OCI, as long as you have a good and reasoned. Like, as long as you were clearly trying, there's no other red flags in your application. You have a decent and reasoned explanation. Yes. But once you hit the workforce, don't worry about it as much. Only psychopaths ask for your LSAT score, your GPA. Yeah. Like, what are we doing? Like, no. And I think this is a good pivot point to like bring us back to the trust issue. Is that like, there's such a Paul and me asthma of like anxiety and low cooperation. Just generally. Like between firms, between students and their advisors, you know, their career departments,

15:20between other employees who are there like, you're taking my job and employers going, there's way too many of you to distinguish. And you're all using AI. So all of your cover letters sound the same. And if everyone is using AI and using these tools and relying on the old trusted methods and models for better or for worse, is it making the process feel less human? Yes. Yes. Yes. That's very conclusive. Tell me more about that. Yeah. So again, it's, it's basically AI competing with AI and a lot of this. And so it's just. That's so, that's so dystopian. So a Harvard Business Review article had noted that it's creating a low trust hiring environment and also Sherman said that even with AI growing fast, companies still see leadership and culture as the real driving forces. Because it is. Yeah. Right. They're, they're fucking not wrong because like I would much rent here. Let me back up because I say this all the time. Experience is the one thing that's guaranteed. It's the, it's the only thing that's absolutely 100% guaranteed.

16:21Right. What is not guaranteed is your innate personality. You're, you're an innate engagement. You're drive to success. But, but it's so, there's no data points for that. Like we, we don't optimize for that in the law school pipeline. And so I have to sort of into it whether or not your 1L, 2L grades speak to your ability to really enjoy the mission, which, which it doesn't. Yeah. Because that's just not what school, it's a trade school. Yeah. Right. And, and I think the bimodal pay in firms, I think it's going to widen because the people where that capacity can be identified will be so hard to find that they will naturally, when they are found, they will demand higher salaries and compensation for it. Yep. And again, I think it's also, it just goes back to people using AI. God, people using AI responsibly. Like, and I know that's again across firms. And so again, it's looking at like, how is your judgment with using it? How is your decision making? How are you using it to be more efficient? Another Schirmstadt that I read was 92% of chief human resources officers.

17:27C-H-R-O's. Is that a real title? It is. Yeah. I think a lot of times they've moved into like a people team, so it's like a chief people officer or something like that. Because I know what chief people officer, because chief people, see, leave that in. Chief people officers have really only been a thing for like last 15 years. Yes. Right. It's definitely a very new. Yeah. And they were not part of the C-suite. No. Generally. Yes. So about 20% of them had chief people officers as a title anywhere in their leadership about 15 years ago. Yeah. And now I think it's more like a third of them have chief people officers now in their C-suite, which it used to be a function of HR. But so I think the wider market is very much responding to that pressure. Definitely. And I think it has accelerated now that AI is really taking control of pretty much everything. Leadership development is still a number one priority in the workplace. And so again, it's just like a growing issue that there's no way to really identify. Like how do you find a top candidate if everyone has the right experience or everyone is mirroring

18:28the exact same job posting. And again, it's like you want someone that has a good decision maker, good leadership skills, all of those things. And I think firms and companies aren't able to distinguish between people at this point. And it's the humanity. Yeah. Right. It's we're looking for subjective markers with objective data that everyone is now able to mimic flawlessly. Yeah. Or at least like mimic or or signify like everyone writes the same cover. And I think too, I mean, it comes back to it's like again, I think I've said this on our last podcast with about hiring managers, but it's like a hiring manager. It's like I've always tried to coach that it's like the hard skills view is teachable for the most part. But it's like again, the soft skills are a lot harder to come by. And so I think that's the issue that's also coming into play is that how are we able to evaluate that through just like a direct application and AI. We all know does not have the ability to do that. They don't know the soft skills. Yep. So they don't know the soft skills and we don't know how to find it. Yep. And we'll be right back after this message.

19:29Like and follow the show if you're enjoying it and we'll be right back. Support for the show comes from legal ref. They don't just market law firms. They grow them with smart SEO, Google ads, web design and AI ready search strategies. They make sure your next client finds you first. If you're ready to win online, go to legal rev dot com slash factor. That's legal rev dot com slash factor. And now to continue the conversation. So I guess just kind of the general takeaway is just that, you know, we're all human on both sides. I think we're all not sure what the future of is for AI and what that might look like. And I think we're scared on both sides that we're going to lose the human touch and the human element. So, you know, as a candidate, know that, you know, I'm the person sitting on the side of the computer screen. And anything you can do to humanize it, stand out any of those things that's going to go a long way. Because I'm looking for the personal touch for someone that's going to be a good fit for our firm. And I think all the other recruiters are doing the same thing.

20:29Yeah. And I think that's a really great lead into what employers should be doing. Agreed. And my number one takeaway for employers is make sure that your values are online. Right? Because that's the, because what we're talking about today is like, hey, candidates show us who you are. Right? And my call for employers is, hey, show us who you want. Right? Because your job of your hiring team should not be to let anyone work here. Right? When people have reached out to work here, the first thing I do is I usually spend the first interview trying to tell them what's why they shouldn't. Yeah. Like, here's what, here's what someone like this would hate about this office. Yeah. Here's what some, here's what you may not like. Right? Because they're already coming to you from a favorable position by the, by the mere fact of their employment. And what my job is, is to find the right people that fit here specifically. Right? And it's so hard to get those people. If you don't put up a billboard and say, hey guys, work hard, care about the mission. Here's the mission we care about. Here's the way we care about it.

21:29Here's who you contact to talk to us more. And if you don't put those signify, if you don't have a podcast, if you don't make video, if you're not in the community giving talks, if you're not donating the chair, whatever your cause mission may be, if you're not out there doing it, how the hell are candidates supposed to find you? Exactly. Right. Yeah. I don't know. I just, ironically, because I just was working on our new job descriptions yesterday. And so again, it's just like, how do you, like, I really wanted to try to write out, like, because we have such a unique culture here. That's just, it's so collaborative and it's very unique for a law firm. I've not had that and I've worked at other firms. Just in the sense that, you know, everyone's very supportive. It's not very hierarchial. All of that, which is really great to be in a supportive environment. Anyways, how do you mirror that on a job discreet? You know, it's just like it is hard. So again, it's just, again, we're struggling as an employer to try to figure out how to mirror our culture and find the right people. But also, it's also, it's also that. And it's also that, like, that's why we do these projects. I mean, most law firms, I am cognizant enough and aware enough to know that they cannot build a TV studio in their office.

22:33Like, we can, like, this studio is in Hemant Law HQ. This is not a rented studio. Yes. If the giant logo behind Carolyn was not a, was not a guest. Yes. Go to wide shot. If the giant logo was not a guest. A dead giveaway. A dead giveaway. A rental studio would not let us do this, right? And, but we do this because we want people to know who we are, like what we care about. And while this is extreme, there are a thousand great ways for even tiny firms to figure out how to show people what they stand for. Because without a mission, you're going to have trouble connecting with Gen Z and Millennials in particular, which I know it's a tired old line. But the mere fact of the matter is that Gen Z and Millennials are most of the workforce now. They are. At least most of the mobile ones. I mean, boomers at set in Gen X and Gen X are still in the workforce, but they tend to be pretty stable by now as a population. They're in management by now. So the people of the labor force, most people are competing over. They're very mission driven. So give them those tools needed to succeed. I think this is a great place to call it.

23:34You want to do the credits? Let's do it. Our content director is Sarah Rutherford. Our video producer is Sam Shenaker. Our video editor is Michelle McNeal. Thanks so much, guys. Have a great day. See you next time.