Why do Mothers Kill their Children? | Jerm Warfare

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1:23My name is Jim. This is Jim Wolfe, the battle of ideas. Peter Bregan, thank you for joining me in the trenches. We're ready to go. My personal trainer has decided the best training he has for me is teaching me to box. He's a boxer and it's deferred to recover from my left-sided weakness from my stroke and my in coordination of left and right. He's got me doing... Tell me a little bit about the stroke. Well, the stroke I have a stroke in my... Stero capsule of my thalamus, which is a control center. It can hurt everything. You name it, it doesn't matter what, whatever you can think of, eating habits, sexuality, thinking, breathing, and it's unpredictable from

2:33could easily have ended up in a little complete left-sided paralysis, but I didn't like a weakness on my left side. I had almost none of my right. I even get a phasia way, I can't speak, and I had that. That was my dominant symptom, started with my speech who's getting into feared with. I couldn't talk anymore and people around me realized I must have had a stroke. I'm talking about my doctor, so I didn't know what was going on. My wife decided that most important thing she could do would be to save me. She took me out AMA against medical advice from the doctors. Very brave of her, I watched it with an amazement because I couldn't do anything. I just sat in a wheelchair

3:39and took me to Florida where I had three months of intensive post-stroke treatment. That was really quite extraordinary. I'd talk about the place, but I closed immediately after I got finished. She must have marshalled the band of angels and gotten me there and got me taken in. Got me the main part of the treatment which was hyperparac, oxygen, very intense, two hours of day. And that was surrounded by occupational therapy, physical therapy of all kinds. Aimed at strengthening my weaknesses. Do you want to be frustrated? Have somebody figure out what your weaknesses are mentally and test them by giving you puzzles that you're not prepared to do well? It was really fun.

4:41And I got a lot better. People have seen me before and after can't believe I'm doing medical people. And my PT is more than a physical therapist. I think his basic identity is a personal trainer. And I told him one of my concerns was that I'm sort of a very protective man and I couldn't protect myself for anybody else right now. So he said, well, I'm a former kickboxer. He said, I think, who might help you a lot if I torch a box. So the way he does that is he has these gloves that he blocks me with. He may see a scene us on TV when guys are warm enough for their fights. So I'm in there practicing my one, two punches and making my hooks and my uppercuts some more resistant, I can better produce them.

5:43Throwing in an occasional kick and you know, he reminds me of any fighting outside of ringer's dirty fighting and you better be prepared to do it. Who in your view is the greatest boxer of all time? Oh, he and I think Mike Tyson. I think you're right. And he would like me to, he'd like me to fight like Mike. He sure. Who? Oh, my God. Yeah. Of course. But probably the most interesting one I watched in recent years was Tyson and he's showing me Mike's moves. He says, you know, you go one, two and then when the guy doubles up a little bit, you just get in there very, very close and bring that uppercut in. Of course, Mike was 10 times stronger than me and quite a bit bigger too. So is my trainer.

6:43You're one of the most prolific psychiatrists I think in American history. Born in, if I've got this right, 1936, that means you're 90 years old. Oh, 90 years young. I am 90 years old. And I've been married my first met ginger, ginger, 50 years ago, 50 years ago. And we've been married for, what's the latest Countlaw? The married for 42 and a half years. 42 and a half years. What is your secret? Well, right now, my secret is ginger. Now, I meant, now what I meant was what is your secret to you being married so long? What is this? You get to my being married so long, ginger? Yeah, just loving that lady and discovering what it's like to be loved by a lady. It's just amazing. You're Harvard trained. You spend decades. I think is the most prominent critic of biological

7:49psychiatry itself. What does what does that mean? Well, another way it's put is I've been called the conscience of psychiatry. Yes. Has that an un-ev? An un-ev? An enviable position? I think it's an un-eviable position. Don't do it anybody else. Especially when you're young and just finding your way along and stuff. But what does it mean though? Explain it to me. Explain it to you. Well, I had a very acute confrontation with psychiatry when I was a very young man. My freshman year at Harvard, when I undergraduate, a friend of mine said, my brother is setting up a volunteer program at the state mental hospital, Pete.

8:53And you'd, I'd just see you studying all the time. I think you should get off your chair and come on out and volunteer at the state mental hospital. And I did. And the experience changed my life at the... I really, I think I deeply connected it in my mind with the Holocaust and not the extermination camps. And the more I got to know about it, the more seemed to me that all the treatments I was seeing being given to the patients was really to severely punish them across their spirit so they wouldn't be any trouble. And that there was just no orientation to the loving care they needed. And that just seemed really apparent to me. It was so painful being on the wards that we and seeing these conditions that we actually set up groups sort of way ahead of my time

10:02PTSD to the hospital with draw groups. We were talking about what it was like in the headaches we got having trouble sleeping and... And we felt about seeing people living in such squalor and so lonely. And so I'm able to leave really a jail prison, big prison. And I always wanted to be a reformer since I was a child. I can't remember what age I was but was very young. I remember thinking that when I grow up, I'm going to write about how tough childhood is so people can finally understand that that's not a good place to be. And that parents need to be different schools, need to be different. And I did do. I've precisely done that actually. I did grow up to write about that.

11:09I finished up my training. I was accepted as a Lieutenant Commander in the United States Public Health Service and assigned to a plumb job that you could get for that which was to be an officer in the National Institute of Mental Health. About the same time Fauci did it suddenly similar and ended up... I ended up in NIA and H because I was mental health and he went to NIA which was infectious diseases and epidemics and things. I decided though I was offered a job to stay there. And I am H and I would have been a great professional career. But I could see the drug companies were running everything that I could see.

12:10They were going to be running everything and I didn't want to be in that position. So I went into private practice and thanked them and turned the job down. After it first accepting I could hardly believe they really wanted to have me because my views are pretty much talking about my views. Probably nobody believed me. I meant to... So I found myself in private practice and people were coming to me on the drugs and I could tell that it was back impossible to do psychotherapy if somebody was on the psych drugs because they didn't know their feelings and they attributed their feelings to what was the time of day and how the drug might have been affecting them and and they if they were having trouble they might have more drugs or less drugs but it was all about drugs once they started on so that there was this crushing effect of thinking that drugs were your solution or the cause of your problem.

13:15And I ended up getting some really serious patients and none of the less treating them without medication which was unheard of. I would take them off medication which was even more ahead of right out of the state mental hospital but we got the same whizpest. And people would hear about me and they might give me a call and say we want to take our door out of St. E's but we don't want to run drugs. We hurt you don't believe in drugs and like see the patient ran out of the state hospital and it was much easier than I thought it would be just when I had to pay a lot of attention to my clients. And at one point I um maybe a couple years in practice I decided I'd ask each of my clients especially the ones who were doing better what helped them. So I gave them a free session for my benefit from

14:16the interview each of my clients about what's helping you. And even some patient patients were finished up recently and the answer I got was not like I thought it might be which is well you know understanding what happened with my parents really made a big difference. You know looking at a child that was very important of course and all your insights into my self-defeating patterns that would get me in trouble but they all said pretty much something but the same thing they said you cared about me so much I started caring about myself. And I thought whoa I didn't expect that and that got me thinking more and more about what mattered in life and I certainly knew in my own life that's what I want that I want to find somebody who just cared about me so much I'd care about more about myself. I'd never had that at least I didn't feel like I'd had it

15:19if I'd had it I hadn't didn't recognize it. And um so I stayed in private practice and was in private practice when I met Ginger in the 1970s. 1973. She was 24 years old I was about 34 years old. It was crushing love at first sight for me. But you know she was a bird on the air right just being recorded. She was a proper she was a proper Christian so the first date didn't end in bed like I expect the law first dates to do. Which probably was not a bad thing but I was married at the time I got divorced shortly after one. And she was a Christian not Christian principles and she was the first person

16:27to ever tell me God loves me. Do you remember that old TV show that was about two ladies one was African American touched by an angel touched by an angel. Well at the end one of the women would say to the who if the guy was a role relating to and saving God loves you and that guy would say well how do you know that she'd say well I'm an angel and her hair would light up and one night out of the blue ginger came up to me and put a flashlight behind her hair and said God loves you he just told me he loves you and that was transforming up me. And um I had had and I don't talk much about this on the air I had had an earlier experience with God

17:31no that was after. It was earlier. I'm here with my wife because since my stroke in August of this year I have a little difficulty with time sequences and she's telling me that I'm all for my time sequence. You had you got experience before I started doing the God loves you message. If we were only married a year or so when you went on that vacation and you ended up having your God experience. Oh actually you went to a conference. I went to a conference. Yeah. I was at home. So we were together for a while. For just a year or so. Yeah. So I'd already heard that God loves me and I was taking a shower before I gave a talk to about 500 people and I was feeling it was be a very friendly audience very friendly. It was mostly psychiatric survivors. People would have been hurt by psychiatry and they were always loving me.

18:34Being grateful for me and it's a professional so respected my work would also be there. But I felt like my work wasn't going very well. I just wasn't as composing as much as I wanted. I had some big victories early on when I conducted a national campaign. It was my first big campaign to stop the bottom and I succeeded. Stopped in the US. Most of it in Great Britain and Canada. Other places in the world. And I'd work with the US Congress and sitting up a psychosoetry commission at the Cleared Psychosoetry Experimental which really put a warning out for clinicians not to just go using it. Said, if you're going to do it, you got to do it on the controlled clinical conditions with a you got to do it as an experiment. You can't just claim you've got this treatment. It's a dangerous experiment. And I'd testify in a big case that

19:41led up to that as well as the Psychosoetry Commission. Well, it was a lot to get done in my first year or two of full-time really working on as a volunteer. You just don't reform issues. And Ginger from the time I met it was always reminding me of all the things I did. If I looked at all said she just stood beside me and remind me about who I was. It's just remarkable things I didn't quite understand actually. Couldn't make sense out why anybody felt that way. And Jesus smile, I would make. Your underlying theme throughout your career was that psychiatry was harming people due to the overreliance and over medicalization of drugs rather than simply understanding people. I'm giving them wise direction if you could and

20:46helping them understand themselves really. And care about themselves. Helping them care about themselves. I'm teasing about you know being God loving me but I came out of my child believing I didn't deserve to be loved. I think that's very common. I think that's the big disayster when you come out of child don't not deserve to be loved. And Ginger paid no attention to that and just loved me. And it was completely baffling to me in the beginning. Other than I knew something magnificent was going on I didn't know what it was. You were involved in very big court cases over the years. I think Columbine that's theatre shooting. There was a Canadian guy who used Prozac. What did you learn from these cases?

21:49Well I think I learned what happened to Clancy. Yes the lady who killed her three kids. Yeah. What I kept seeing with the psychiatric drugs was that it impaired judgment and because you couldn't know your feelings. If you run on any kind of psychoactive substance you don't know what your feelings are. You don't know if it's a abnormal bowel imbalance in your brain caused by the drugs. Or whether it's because you were actually being mistreated by somebody. Or that you were remembering up under the influence of some earlier abuse of experiences. Um and um I began to see one after another cases of people committing murder on Prozac or

22:52Paxel murdering a child. I had a very early case of a man who drowned his young son in which most of them had a pretty big feet and a tub and then tried to drown himself on top of him. I was failed. I was Paxel. And um that particular case was interesting because as part of the settlement I wasn't allowed to write about the case. And then I don't know just how it worked but the lawyer said you know they want they want to settle and now and part of it they want you to put a care going on you about. And then later on another judge opened it to the world. Um some other people tried to use it and it touched for their case and drug company

24:08complained and said no we can't do it the judge said I'm going to do it. And he couldn't be used. So then I wrote about it. I had a Canadian case where a young man on Prozac out of the blue turned to a friend sitting around B.S.ing in a garage pulled out a kitchen knife and stabbed him in the heart. A chest killer. And the judge listened to my testimony list of testimony of top Canadians including the clinic director who's rather well known with his standboy had gotten his extra dose of Prozac because he was not feeling well on the dose he was on. So they gave him more. He got worse, worse from worse. Um and he said that he agreed that the evidence was a Prozac. It caused it.

25:08That was the first Canadian case like that ever. Um And I had some big I had the first case ever one against electroshock surrounding electroshock. I didn't play a decisive role in any of the big shooter cases like Columbine. I was involved in them as an expert in cases but surrounding Columbine like lawsuits against doctors or school or whatever they thought was to blame. And the drug companies goes Eric Harris, the first shooter famous shooter not the first shooter but the first famous shooter. Hello everybody else is mimicking. Um was on so loft and he had ironically the

26:11to identify how much he was on the corner said he had a therapeutic level of Prozac and has put strength meaning an effective level enough to make a difference one way or another. And um but I even that I learned just going through the records I never testified in any of those big cases. Um they preferred not to get mixed up with the drugs that the most of them when I push came to shove. And they would go with a drug. For murder or for not guilty by reason of insanity because they sound crazy. And there was evidence that we're feeling connecting crazy but they didn't want to get involved too much of the drugs. Um I think the drug companies have amazing ability to put pressure on

27:18suppressed the anybody from taking seriously the drugs. It's really quite amazing. Um Clancy um I could just read you a paragraph from my um Clancy. This is my um sub stack and I don't know I'm confused as I look at it because you're a wrong age. Because I'm on a phone. Yeah this is the paragraph. It's so rare as the the where's the headline. Oh I don't think it printed out either. Yeah it didn't print out the headline. Look for now. So here's the Clancy case is a list of all her meds. Can you get an idea

28:21about that? Each one is a day and medication and um reading does it work? Yeah I talk about her defense depends on postpartum mental illness and 32 psychiatric medication prescriptions given in four months leading up to her faith look. And then I call now to that um you're expecting. I think so. Yeah. You don't feel like a lunsy trial is revealed that Clancy was a victim of prescription polydrug treatment. Over the last ten days she was prescribed. Quittaya Pine, Tresadone, Lerasapam, Diasapam, Tresadone, Diasapam, Diasapam, Amitriptaline, Diasapam, Diasapam and various doses.

29:30Diasapam is valium. Every single one of these drugs interacts with other drugs to increase their sedative effect. So she's on multiple sedatives. And um as I wrote here that this was just going to have a generalised sedating or sedative sedative effect on her brain that would at the least seriously compromise any individual's cognitive and cognition self-control and judgment. May rendering them ultimately unable to adequately manage their emotions and behavior. Looking at the chart in January, all nine prescriptions were highly sedative drugs. That Benzos, mostly. Um.

30:30And if you read the FDA's prescription information for Benzos, they talk about paradoxical reactions that patients, uh, people just lose control themselves on the drugs. This is a similar effect to alcohol, except you don't know your drug. When you drink alcohol you know it can make your drug. And um. Um. You also can feel the drunk in this. You're staggering your, your, your, your, your, your, stumbling and mumbling and you know that you're not yourself. But with the Benzo you don't necessarily have any of those sedatives effects of that are obvious. When your cognition though is drunk, it's poisoned. And what I discovered and more I looked at psychiatric drugs was

31:32that every single one of them in the degree to the degree that it worked was a neurotoxin. And that this was true for the so-called anti-psychotic drugs. As well as the plain old sedative drugs like valley and molybrium, that they're neurotoxins. You want to know how they work? They work by poisoning, brain cells and reducing their ability to communicate with each other. And uh, that one of the effects that um, I think I was the first to talk about was that what I call medication spell binding. As part of the intoxication, the front lobes always got enough of the drug to start ruining your highest centers of self-reflection and that almost all the time just like with an alcohol, qdacol intoxication, the person has no idea how impaired they are. They made you something really

32:38stupid like get in a fight in the bar when you're 90 years older, whatever, or drive when they shouldn't be driving or come home and pick their wives or whatever, just losing impulse control. And uh, man happens on the benzos and she was on enough benzos to be having primarily a benzodiazepine effect so you can really identify it as a possible paradoxical reaction to benzos. And then every drug she was taking would add to the other sedative effect pretty much every drug. And um, a part, one of the more interesting parts of history of these drugs is that when they first discovered um, the anti-psychotic drugs, first one was thorazine and then the second or third one was haldole and now seraquil, epilophy, resprodose, pyrexia, they were all anti-psychotic drugs

33:45and they all blocked dopamine which is the primary nerve truck from the center of the brain to the frontal lobes of the brain and to the areas called this cerebral cortex, the surface of the brain, up in the front and um, it just causes the inability to know exactly what the drugs are doing to you. And uh, people may feel like they're in impulse to kill but they have no idea what's going on impulse to kill themselves or I feel like they're dying but they don't know what it is. How did it get to that point? I mean with these drugs, we aren't, we're taking so many drugs, it starts some way. What is that starting point? Well, I don't think anybody's ever asked me that.

34:45Um, what's the starting point of the multiple drug use? Well, it comes out of the drug companies and they're marketing and um, they never much talked about the dangers of combining drugs because they were happy that people do it and they were happy to push diagnoses that would let you give almost any drug you want like bipolar disorder, all this began for some bipolar disorder. There's two reasons for that. One is that the antidepressants cause it so they had a lot more coming along and um, before the antidepressants, it was weird to see anybody that seemed to have a manic depressive reaction which became retiagnosed as giving you diagnosis to a bipolar disorder. That you go up and you go down two poles.

35:49Um, it just is a good way to get a lot of drugs on a person because you can treat them for being high, you can treat them for being slow, you can give them a drug which does both, makes you high or low and you can't predict it. You just rationalizes giving all kinds of coverage to people. As a result of that, the drug companies purposely pushed the diagnosis of bipolar disorder with the Harvard psychiatrist whom they paid to do it. Who did it? Never got punished for it. And um, we all have a sudden had a lot of bipolar kids who gave them more kinds of drugs. That was a goal of it. It's a marketing. It's like asking where people get the idea they could need two cars. I'm sure the car companies play a role in it but still yet. Um, do you think the um, do you think

36:53if Lindsay had not been on any drugs, she would not have killed her kids? Yeah, I think her children would be alive today if she hadn't been on any drugs or at least on more than one or two. Once you get up into the three or four drugs thing, you have no way of even predicting what the result is because there's never been a study of it. So you can't go into a textbook and at least let not write now and say, okay, I'm going to put my patient on these five drugs in the first two weeks that I see here or have already got around all these drugs. What's the effect of that? What kind of studies do we have? Well, if the, you put gathers to AI, I don't know what they would do. Maybe I'll try. But what they should do is say you're conducting experiment on your patient doctor because there's no studies like this, the FDA, who does studies for

37:56drug approval, never puts the patient on multiple drugs unless they're doing some sort of special study of that. They always have only one drug or two drugs. And sometimes they drug company get special permissions to do that in their plan because they don't want the FDA saying this spursions are too many drugs we can. We can't make a judgment of what the drug effect is here. And so she was just a not right experiment. He will take a bright, attractive woman who seems to be in some sort of problem with her husband. Give her three children. Let's see how it affects her. Well, she didn't come through glorious wing, he'd list the site. Sometimes the drugs can just confuse the hell out of you.

38:59Yeah. No, that's so I give you this impulse to that. They just confuse the hell out of you. And so you go along with your unconscious mind. And um... Something close to 20% of Americans on antidepressants, do you think that the over-medicalization is making society mentally worse? Absolutely. The over-medical organizations have been making society worse for since 1950s, I believe, when we flooded the mental hospital with the so-called antidecotic psychotic drugs. Let me give you a little piece of that history. A surgeon in Paris found that he had a drug which was a derivative of an antestamine, which when he gave to his patients,

40:01they still had pain after the surgery, but they didn't care about it. So he got quickly gotten in touch with his friends over in the mental hospitals. So I think you ought to try this one and they did. And they found it was a miracle. They could tell it was a miracle because the nurses all reported after just a week of the patients on the ward being given the drug that their life was much easier. That patients were more obedient. They didn't have so many demands, it was quieter, much quieter on the ward. They'd be able to bottomize everybody with a neurotoxin. And then as they explored it, they began to see all these symptoms. Now since the majority of their patients were women, they blamed it on some sort of female problem, rather than on the drugs, or at least at the drugs which is bringing out some sort of unmasking, some sort of

41:05female problem. And then the drug company managed to conduct an experiment, giving it to a whole huge boatload of sailors because it suppressed the vomiting center. And these sailors were going to be out in rough water for a while. So although these young soldiers start getting the same abnormal neurological reactions, the older ladies were getting on the hospital warts. That's really through a monkey wrench into the dismissal of these symptoms as the elderly and women. And they realized they had a neurotoxin on their hands. And then one of them was bright enough to say, you know, all these things, the twitches and the deterioration of the thinking that people are getting.

42:06That looks exactly like a viral disease that occurred simultaneously with the flu during World War I, called lethargic and cephalitis. Viral probably a viral in cephalitis. And it made people lethargic and dull, but didn't put them to sleep. And I said, what these drugs are doing. So you, they were creating hypothetical, phargic patients without them having to stay in bed, which was really great. And for them. And they thought about it some more. And this was the beginning of collaboration between pharmac, college pharmacy, pharmaceutical industry. I'm sorry. And psychiatry because they just saw that these drugs were so spectacular and quieting the wards. They wanted to work with the

43:07drug companies on what else they could find. And they, when they began to realize it was old neurotoxin. They went to the drug company. I don't remember what you want to ask of him. And they said, what's your most neurotoxic drug that you have? What one is causing the most of these permanent twitches and abnormal movements? They had a quick answer for them, said in the monkeys, how dole? How dole? Halo, parodol. And so that became the choice of drug for many years. Because it was the most neurotoxic. And psychiatrists have kind of known this intuitively because every time you look at what's the most popular version of a drug, it'll be the worst, the most the one that's doing the most crushing of mental processes.

44:14When they first started using stimulants, radiactateth or the first drug they seized upon for using, it was methamphetamine. Docs were giving methamphetamine, not instead of Ritland, which is a weaker stimuli. Instead of cocaine, which is to put out landage, it's pretty outlandish to be using math, but they never talk about it anymore. Sure. If we accept that a drug can remove someone's moral agency, are we therefore accepting that the drugs can remove the concept of the self? Well, the self's pretty complicated, but certainly can confuse and impair it. When I was in the hospital, I don't know what would have happened to me if my wife wasn't managing what they were doing to me.

45:16When you had your stroke? And I had my stroke. Because one day they decided that, maybe this was a policy that they had to protect against seizures in first-time stroke patients. Is it protocol? It was part of their written protocols. So they gave me without telling me intravenous benzo. And I got so confused I didn't recognize my wife. She came to my bedside and I was just totally out of it from the benzo. And they gave me intravenously a no idea how to do it. With capra. Capra. Capra. KEP. P-A-R-A. Capra. Capra. Yeah. And they said they were all, how do you know it causes confusion? I suppose they were tempted to put on a little girl.

46:20And she said, I looked it up. I worked with my husband. I had to look things up. I felt so proud of her, even though I was, and I realized how in love with her I was as confused as I was. I said, are we married or something? I don't know. What did I do? What did I do? You were so confused at that point. That was days later, after you were proud of me. I was days later. Yeah, you were very confused. Well, Peter, another way of me asking that question I suppose, is, how does psychiatry view the person, the human being? They don't view us as human beings. Though I dare a human being is a God creature created by God, beingness is a divine gift. And anything that implies that you won't find in psychiatry, you look in the index of your

47:24textbook of psychiatry, whichever one you want to. It'll probably not even have the word love in the pack. And I won't have being a beingness. It just doesn't have the concepts. And when I was opposing lobotomy, one of the lobotomy suits was a very big deal at Harvard. I actually wrote something ridiculing me. Bragging things to frontal lobes of the holy of holies, he said. Well, I've wasn't far from what I believed. Yeah, I think it's holy. You don't go in and destroy the part of your brain that's required for you to even love God, or worship God proper. And that makes sense. But they don't think about those things. You have to let that go when you're being a dead medical doctor, especially a psychiatrist, because he would make you crazy.

48:26Think about giving lectures shock the people and frying their brains. One of my book professors, God, Bob, I don't even know. He's still around. When I was in training, he was a psychoanalyst. He was ahead of his time as a feminist. I really have a free thinker at the time. He said, Peter, psychiatrists hate the brain. Think about what they do to it. They hate the brain. That's something I should try writing about someday. Why would they hate the brain? Maybe psychiatrists demonic. You've written about it with shock doctors. I've written about it some extent. My wife's reminding me. If we accept that drugs can ender moral agency,

49:28do we not run the risk of removing responsibility for one's actions? Yeah, what about the whole issue of responsibility? Well, I don't like to take cases, for example, where the main argument is not guilty by reason of insanity. Schizophrenia psychosis, bipolar disorder. Because I don't want to take away moral agency from people who have normal brains. So where I've drawn the line is, the person's really got to be on psych drugs before our tight disposition. Or have a serious brain damage. And for us to be able to see it correlates directly with the change in their conduct. So I'm pretty tight on what I'll take. And I won't take a case generally if there's any past history of violence.

50:30And on occasion when I found out there was a past history of violence, one case I had, I found out in the middle of trial. The man in China had gotten into some sort of trouble and been referred to some kind of a anger management class in China. So it would never got here. And I was drew from the case right on the witness stand. This was not... I'd been lied to and it was not a part of making an accurate estimate of why you got violent now. A normal sane mother is not going to kill her kids. Not without some sort of serious stress. The maternal instinct is so strong. And... But the other thing we find out from all the women who are coming to our side

51:32is that many women, I think, find that those early years of being a mother are really tough. And... I think that many, many women are tempted to throw a kid out a window or something. Especially when they have several of them right away and when their husband goes off on work trips. Do you remember what your doctor, what your professor told you? No, I was trying to remember exactly what he said right now. What? He said a human being reacts in one or another way, in one way or another, under that kind of stress of the constant crisis. Yeah, they hold the baby tighter and closer. They feel like throwing it down in stairs. But that thought is not the same as what she did.

52:33I would say she did it much more horrible. I had to overcome a lot of morality and ethics to do that. Women have that kind of thought they're horrified. Yeah. And she was seeking help again and again. I think that psychiatry is the problem when it comes to eroding moral agency. Because psychiatry and psychology and psychotherapy today don't recognize moral agency much at all. Bill Glasser, who was a friend of mine before he died, there's no connection there. Of course, there's no connection any kind. Bill used to come to my conferences or used to come to his. He developed the concept of reality therapy. And then he talks about choice therapy.

53:33That people have to learn that they make choices and they're responsible for them. And that their most fundamental emotional problems would do the bad choices. And I see that all along going back to children. One of the most abused women I ever worked with, much worse than most stocks I've ever seen, made it put mine early on to never be like her parents. And her problem isn't that she was going to do the others what they did to her. Her problem was she could barely relate to other people because she was rolling out anything that people did that was similar to their parents. Parents, she just, that she didn't want to be anything like them. And she knew who was wrong what they were doing.

54:33And later on, videos of her were discovered and looked around her treatment. And there's one of them where they tried to get her to do something bad to one of the other kids. And she is refusing. And God bless her, they're burning her with cigarettes. So first time she knew what the scars were for. And so some people like my friend, this client, early on, no right from wrong. That's really clear. And they make moral decisions early on. So I would emphasize the importance of moral decisions. And I do in my work. But when you've been brain damaged by psychiatry, somebody else has really a blame. The people damaged you. And electric shock treatment, for example, I had an electric shock patient,

55:33when the police came to reinforce some sort of water. Maybe it was an order giving up his children and he didn't want to. He stood outside his house at six guns and drool and started firing. And he had had shock treatment the day before. And you know, that's like being, having multiple concussions in one day. And then I felt very comfortable saying this man. Barely nobody was doing it certainly. It was not under his control. But I never had any experiences like that until I was recovering from the surgery surgery. I think of it as psychosourgery. From my stroke. And they started giving me drugs without the link might be me about them.

56:36And I was very much in the same position. And one of the things I experienced was that they also put restrictions on my leaving the bed for a very fall down. The whole drug thought that I wasn't in tell me and I had to pay. And I was going to go pay. And a female nurse, a very big woman. Put her arms around me and to stop me and said, you can't leave your bed. And I got my fist back. I've never done that with a woman in my entire life. I feel so, I feel guilty about that. That's how you're sure it is for you. And I said, I've never had a woman in my life but you got to let me go to the bed. Because I had urgency from the stroke. My bladder felt like I was going to split.

57:36So there was me in my craziest, unever, under the influence of psych drugs. But I certainly don't argue that in court that that's my source of information. But it certainly is confirmatory for me. And also, I'm confused I got and then lasted for days. And it was the combination of, it was like being on multiple drugs. I had a head injury plus drugs. And that makes things worse than I've had cases where I've taken that position. Combination of the head injury in the drugs. Further compromise to this identity as you were quarters. So for a strength, a particular part of identity. If you could say one thing to a GP or a psychiatrist right now who is about to reach for the prescription pad. What would you say? Oh.

58:41I'd say how's it going with you and your husband since the baby's born? Quite literally. Oh, he's like... Really bamboozled. Well, the first time one of my wife's got pregnant had a baby. I told her that I was really fell lift out and I wanted to get a rabbit. Cool. And she wasn't kindly taught the idea at all. So I don't think I ever told you that story. You told me that. That I tell you everything. You told me. Son is the con. I was in med school the time I had my hands full. Just going to med school. Women. You know, there's a saying that Hillary Clinton promoted was, takes a village to raise a child.

59:42That's communism. The truth is it takes a village to support a mother who's raising a child. And the women just don't get enough support for a lot of what they do. Being a housewife, being a wife is a traditional wife. It's a beautiful thing, but very draining and difficult. And women need a lot more support. So this is what I might tell a mother. I might tell the story. Everything I'm telling you. And I'm telling you, the right to get as much support as you can get. And if she said, well, I don't think I can do anything about my husband. And I said, does he love you? Oh, when we were kids. We had married, we had with kids. He was hell out of hell.

1:00:42I had to head over heels to love with me. I knew. Me too. And she said, but I don't think it's there anymore. I said it's there. I can tell you. If somebody wants to love you, when you were a kid they probably still love you if they haven't seen you for five years. And we can find that love if you want to have some couples therapy. And let's see if we can rekindle the love and not let it get snuffed out. Love often gets snuffed out in an early in a marriage when the kids come. Parents stop paying enough attention on each other, they stop having to fix times when they get together, have dinner together, see friends together, go for walks together. She said, well that's happened to us. I said, well let's talk about it. Therapy. And the... It's a good, that'd be great. What about the drug?

1:01:45Talk what I do at the medicine. I'd say, um... Don't talk, don't do it. Let's try some other approaches. I never, I never give drugs to my patients. Let's see if we can figure out just what you need. But I think probably it's more of your husband. And she says, oh God, yes. I said, well, be brave. Let's go do it. Peter, there are very few people like you in the world. And I think we need more of you. Well, I'm trying to write about, right now, I'm trying to write about this, about love and guys being loving. I'm having a lot of trouble finding the right hand, water, maybe talking to you today will help me get over that pump. I watch you smile and it me as I talk and it makes me feel really good. Like maybe I'm talking to you right here.

1:02:46You know, the funny thing that one of the problems, the issues for after the stroke was just doing ordinary typing is difficult for me. And so I can think in a lot of ways as clearly as ever, but I have a heck of a time getting it down and as fast as I think, which is what I used to do, I could just type as fast as I thought. Pretty much. So can my wife just like listen to a straight line of here typing? And I used to pretty much be like that but none anymore. Maybe this will be a good thing to talk about you. I've got you or your COVID book, but you've written a pile of books, haven't you? A pile of books, yes. So I'll promote them right now. I might need to... My dear list. Bookbook would have a list of my most recent books here.

1:03:51Well here's a book about guilt, shame and anxiety. Not readable. It's called guilt, shame and anxiety, understanding and overcoming negative emotions. It's 2000 and... I think it's about 2013, it's pretty new. Oh, 2014 copyright. It's 2020, so it's a day here. Yeah, just 12 years ago. Yeah, the most recent book is COVID-19 in the global predator. Just learn about it. Did you just say COVID? I need... COVID-19 in the global predator in your lab, yeah. Is our most recent book. Yeah, yeah, you can just go to Amazon and put our name in. And also your website. Eatabregan.com, isn't it? We're at Gregan.com, man.

1:04:53And we do a substack, which is Ginger. How's that people go? The gingerbragon.substack.com. And this covers everything about psych drugs. Called Psychiatric Drug With Jol. A guide for prescribers, therapists, patients and families. It gives my series, my new series about medication spell binding. Talks about had it with Dr. Woodjox. Now my view is very different on this than most psychiatrists. I never save somebody. Well, cut your drugs in the air for... Call me in the morning or in a week or whatever. To me, we have to do it much slower. I don't have to say 10% of your time. What I do is psych drugs, I say, let's... When we're comfortable together, when you feel like you can trust me,

1:05:56and you want to start with Jol, that's great. And what I do is we'll pick the smallest amount possible. Conveniently possible, like breaking a... Your smallest pill in half, which is smallest pill. One milligram, maybe we can make breaking the half. Or I'll get the pharmacy to do it. But I want to just take a little bit off of your current dose. And if you're comfortable for that, we'll take a little more. If you're comfortable with that after a couple weeks, take a little more. So there'll be no surprises. Because if we do that, and when I take you off for another half a milligram, you start to feel over-excited or, hopefully, sad, how we do it go back to the previous dose. That's a little bit. The turns...turn drill into a withdrawal, a little bit. Given back to you, it will set you back to normal, balanced your brain.

1:07:00We just want to unbalance your brain too fast. And that's the basic idea. It's very different than ordinary psych-execetric treatment as much more patient-oriented. What do in this realm are you feel? I really mean how you feel. So you go, tell me how you feel. So we go along. And by the way, you can just call me for 10 minutes anytime you want during withdrawal. And there's no charge, even. I want you to feel that free to call me. So we can deal with it. Because if we catch her, having a withdrawal reaction quickly enough, it'll end with just going back to the previous dose. And then we'll wait a little longer and we'll continue. So it's a very simple principle. But it's...unfortunately, you're very unlike our most psychiatrist work. It would be a major change for them. Peter, it has been such a privilege talking to you again. I'm so glad to see you. You've always cheered me up.

1:08:00I wish we could be best friends. But on that note... You'll cheer me up. Yeah, well, the feeling is completely mutual. So on that note, Peter Bragan, thank you for joining me in the trenches. Thank you. I'll come talk with you anytime you want. Dave Roberts here. There you are, surrounded by fans, sharing wings, sharing drinks, high-fiving random strangers. Everybody remembers the game. Nobody remembers the guy coughing behind you until a few days later. At 2 a.m., you wake up with the fever and your throats on fire. Now what? Urgent care? Close. ER? Slam. Telehealth? Maybe. But the pharmacy's closed. You needed a medical emergency kit. These aren't first aid kits. They contain essential prescriptions used for over 30 common conditions. Sinus and ear infection. UTIs, stomach bug, travelers diaria, and more.

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