Why Do 10/10 Top VTubers Look Like Children?

This episode examines popular VTuber avatar designs and how they influence audience engagement. The conversation covers community reactions to recent viral moments, perceptions of age representation in virtual content, and comparisons with trends in other regions.

The discussion also reviews data on viewer sentiment, patterns in top-performing models, and broader questions about norms for online personas as technology evolves. Emphasis is placed on protecting real-world audiences while understanding market-driven preferences.

Episode Transcript

Malcolm Collins:Hello, Simone. Today, we are going to be talking about an interesting case that has had some virality within our community, which is TechTone found out to his horror that one of the VTubers he was crushing on was not a minor. What?

Speaker 3:I swear, man, she said she was 13.

Speaker 21:What the I feel like I just saw something illegal. I told the Internet Iron Mouse had a kid, and they’re 19, and Iron Mouse is 40?

Speaker 20:Imagine how visibly shaken Iron Mouse is now. I was visibly shaken. Normies finding out VTubers are adult women,

Malcolm Collins:And we need to talk about this because it’s a very there’s a this is deeper. And so I had an AI do an analysis on the top 10 VTubers to find out by looking at their models, plausibly, what what percent of them were not minors? And it said one of the 10.

Simone Collins:Wait. Which one of the 10 doesn’t look like a minor? We’ll get to that. Okay.

Malcolm Collins:We’ll get to that. We’ll look at them up. Scroll around

Simone Collins:and find it. I need to see.

Speaker 4:We ended up, looking up this individual, I do not agree with the AI and neither does Simone. We think she looks high school. May maybe plausibly barely legal.

Malcolm Collins:And we’ll be going through the mage. But this is this is an interesting phenomenon because this isn’t necessarily that these women are choosing this. If you look at Yukiyaru, who we had on our stream recently Mhmm. She discussed the phenomenon where when she first went on, she planned to do Lutubing. She had a model with big jiggly boobs. She was like, okay. I’ll go out there. I’ll get all these guys.

Simone Collins:Because she figured that was what people wanted, which is understandable.

Malcolm Collins:As time went on, she moved to smaller and smaller breasts and both less sexualized and more overtly a minor model. Yes. and as she made that transition, her audience got bigger. Now she probably would have moved in the other direction had she not seen this. We probably wouldn’t see this many VTubers be doing this if this wasn’t what the audience apparently wanted. So the question becomes, why does the audience want this when there are not that many PDA files or maybe there are?

Simone Collins:Allegedly. Another question

Malcolm Collins:we’ll get to.

Simone Collins:I don’t

Malcolm Collins:know. And the second question, the question is, well, first, let’s just focus on the tech tone thing because I’ve I’ve I’ve found this whole thing interesting, and it’s worth talking about.

Simone Collins:Right? Like, mid thirties?

Malcolm Collins:So what he found out is he found out an old clip for her where she admitted to having a daughter who was at least 10 years old. And her own exactly 10 at that clip, and the clip was nine years ago. So it means that now she has a 19 year old daughter, which he took to mean she’s at least in her forties, which I would agree with. She’s probably at least in her forties.

Simone Collins:Fair enough. And he’s 32 years old. Yeah. Okay.

Malcolm Collins:Well and and he was scandalized by this. I mean, his clip, he he acted scandalized. I I will note here that I suspect that his scandalization was meant as a joke. Sure. Didn’t think through the meta of this. I don’t think that he actually really he’s not an idiot. He didn’t actually think that she was, a 10 year old, like,

Simone Collins:a model. It’s just weird when there’s a disconnect between the public face and the voice behind it. That’s all. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 18:So the tech tone thing, it’s just a gag. We don’t really think that he thought that. it’s just funny the way this is playing out, and congratulations to him on the kid he has on the way.

Malcolm Collins:And so I don’t I don’t really I I wanna be very clear here. I am not No. No. No. Tectonic the predator or something like that. I I’m I’m saying he did a bit, but I think the bit uncovers something much deeper, which is this inversion of the trope of, you know, the guy comes to your house from date line. He’s like, sit down. Sit down. Like and they’re like, I swear, I thought she was older. And here it’s like, I I I swear. I thought it was a 10 year old. I had no idea that was a 40 year old woman with children. And the Internet has been mostly sane about this. So I decided to do a sentiment analysis. So in case people are wondering, like, okay. I know this has been going viral. What percent of people? 55%, 45 to 55% are saying this is a complete nothing burger. Why are you caring about this? 25 to 35% are actively mad at the people who are doing any who are angry about this. Right? Like so a big chunk of the flashback has been, like, why are you shaming a woman for having children?

Simone Collins:Oh. Right? Okay.

Malcolm Collins:And only 20 to 30% actually treat this as any sort of a scandal. And first, I wanna note, I find this to be an incredibly healthy response from the wider community. I think it’s an incredibly good response to see from the wider community. And the the reason I say that is because the v tubing community in The United States grew out of the idol worship community in Japan and South Korea. And those communities in regards to stars having children or getting old is brutal and abusive, frankly. It’s it’s a really disgusting, community. It it promotes antinatalism in these countries because these stars aren’t allowed to have kids because everybody treats them like they’re married to them.

Simone Collins:Right.

Malcolm Collins:I know you’re gonna go into later in this piece where the same thing happened with a bunch of old ladies and a younger man, and then they they did freak out because he ended up sleeping with one of them. So we’ll talk about that. But, we we imported this from Japan, but we didn’t import the toxicity as much. Right? You know? And and and when this is flared up, we’ve pushed back, which I appreciate. But one of the things that we did import from Japan was the useful figures because this was a part of this culture in Japan as well when they were fictionalized. Yeah. So, I decided to go over top 10, just so we can talk through, this this wider phenomenon of the incredibly young looking VTuber model topping the charts. So top one here, you actually know this one because she’s in a titans shark princess song. This is Oh my god. Oh.

Simone Collins:The the the reason why our daughter identifies as a shark princess. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins:Because she saw a music video with Garugaru in it, and she said, that’s me.

Simone Collins:Yeah. This is the video about me.

Malcolm Collins:No. This is the video about me. It’s a very cute video. But, anyway, she she looks like a child. You you’d agree with that. Right? Like,

Simone Collins:And I yes. I think, you know, kinda confirmed when a, you know, four year old girl thinks that it’s about her. So, yeah, if a four year old girl sees your video and is like, that’s me, I think something might be going on there.

Malcolm Collins:Then we have Hoshima Marine, a a young face. I I looked up her big eyes, very young looking. Okay. Definitely not past 18. Hoshima Sushi, sushi or something. I I can’t pronounce any of these. Again, young face here. Usadako Pekaro was the next one. Kobo Canaro, she Kuma, Fubikino, Mori Callaloop, Sakura Miko, and then Unico, Corom. and and the smallest of these is at 2,280,000. and then you could add additional ones in there, like the one we’re talking about today, Iron Mouse, very clearly childlike. Fillion, quite big. I don’t know if you’ve seen Fillion, but very, very childlike in the way that both she presents acts and it it it’s shown on screen . In fact, of the ones that, like, I watch, the only ones that look, there’s some that look like teenagers, okay, that are popular in our community. Like, I’d say, Keirsha and Smuggalana. Mhmm. And the only one I know who actively presents as an adult is ChaCha. And that’s because ChaCha often talks about how many kids she’s had, and it’s it’s hard to not see her. So she takes on, like, the mommy role.

Simone Collins:She’s like, 40. Any of the really busty ones are just obviously adults.

Malcolm Collins:So of these, the ones that came off as clearly, like, child child Yeah. Would be Goro and Kobo. Okay. Then young teen to high school, you have Susi, Pekuro, Fubiko, Miko, and Koron. Okay. Young face, sexier body is Marine. And then close to adult is Callie. So let’s look at Callie because you said you wanted to see the one that Yeah. K. That’s Mori Callilope.

Simone Collins:K.

Malcolm Collins:Let’s see what she looks like to see if I agree with the AI. Because the AI actually looked up images of them.

Simone Collins:Oh. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins:She’s she’s plausibly I mean, I’d say barely legal. But

Simone Collins:Yeah. I’m

Malcolm Collins:No. This is a high schooler.

Simone Collins:This is a high schooler. This is not an adult. She’s not of drinking age. Yeah. She’s adorable. But that’s the problem. She’s adorable. Maybe they saw any images of her with larger chesticles and therefore assumed that she was an adult. But all the other ones show her with a modest chest. So I don’t know. I don’t know what to make it.

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. I’m looking at something. Let’s see. It’s cdeco pickerel. Wait. What is this one? I’m just spot checking this here. Yeah. Oh my god. I’m surprised it put this at teen. She she is

Simone Collins:not even child. No. What?

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. This is obviously a child. What? She’s a little child bunny girl. I think the AI is being overly generous here. Yeah.

Simone Collins:I mean, I that’s sweet. That’s cute. Okay. It’s cute. It’s cute. Okay. Anyway, people like cute things. Can can we not have cute things?

Malcolm Collins:Right. So I think when the Internet gets upset is the sexualization of some of these figures, which I will notice doesn’t happen as much as you would expect, if I’m gonna be honest. you don’t see them a lot on, like, adult content sites that otherwise do, like, rule 34 of a lot of, like, TV shows and cartoons and stuff like that. Mhmm. Like, the average cartoon is, like, way more rule 34 than the average VTuber. So that’s interesting.

Simone Collins:Yeah.

Malcolm Collins:But to continue here, well well so what I wanted to research here and what I wanted to go into here was, like, the spiciest of spicy questions. It’s one that I’ve avoided in the past, and it’s one that I think it needs to be talked about because this becomes such a part of, like, the Internet community. Right? Which is, is this a problem? Is this something we should be moralizing about? Is this actually a major issue? Is this a threat to children?

Simone Collins:Yeah.

Malcolm Collins:That these characters are so popular. And the study that you like to go over in regards to this, in regards to your argument is just, like, like, way more men are comfortable with being attracted to children than we publicly admit. What what does the study say? I think it was of a an an ageless vampire came into your window was the body of an 11 year old. The number of men who would sleep with her was higher than the number of men, I think, who would sleep with her if she came to your window was the body of, like, a 55 year old.

Simone Collins:Yeah. Yeah. Obviously. I think anyone will hear that and be like, I mean, this is not this is not surprising. No one should be surprised by this. And I

Malcolm Collins:think it was the the 50% mark in the study was 14. Right?

Simone Collins:Yeah. It was something like that. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. 14.

Simone Collins:Okay. Ridiculously yeah. Like, certainly, a level of young that would not be considered an age of consent even in, like, Europe where it goes super low.

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously, in a Muslim country, of course, but we’re talking in, like, the rest of the world. Mhmm. So there’s that study.

Speaker 6:And I think here, as we enter the world where anyone can appear any way they want within an online context, which is going to increasingly become the case in terms of AI, we need to think about the norms that we set in terms of where do we draw the line on appropriateness. And if you’re seeing the average guy thinking this is appropriate, if the vampire is actually, you know, 300 years old, then we have to think of, okay. Well, then what does that mean in terms of a 40 year old woman using an avatar like this?

Malcolm Collins:And then I often bring this up in the context of just porn more generally where I point out that when porn

Speaker 7:Had been illegal, but then was made legal.

Malcolm Collins:child SA rates have dropped by dramatic amounts. In The Czech Republic, it was a 50% drop. We saw a dramatic drop in places like Hong Kong. We saw when this was outlawed. And in other countries, I think The Netherlands was outlawed at one point. Or or or you sorry. Not outlawed, relegalized at one point, and you just saw big drops. But the question here is not around this. It’s around the the the question of yeah. But what I understand there’s a general corn stuff. Right? But, like, what if you’re actually sexualizing

Speaker 8:Things that are not children, e. G, a 3,300 year old vampire in a child’s body or a 44 year old woman with an avatar that looks clearly underage.

Malcolm Collins:as a society? Right? Like, what effect is that going to have on the rates of SA? and that’s something I wanted to dig into. Right? And and people can be here, well, Malcolm, it’s about the moral thing more broadly. I don’t care about the moral thing more broadly. Right? I I I just genuinely don’t. I’m a consequentialist. Right? You can say, I think porn is an existentially bad thing in a society, and then I would say, okay. I care more about the fifty percent of children who got essayed that year. Yeah. Right? You know, that that that to me outweighs your moral concern. Right? Like, that for me is the end goal here

Simone Collins:Mhmm.

Malcolm Collins:Is reducing actual harm.

Speaker 9:And I am actually not, like, slightly of this position. I am massively disgusted and view as a great deal of contempt the people who would sacrifice children to be as aid so that they could feel, morally pure or clean or so that they don’t have to deal with temptation. It’s frankly, uh, one of the lowest moral stances you could have. It is offloading the cost of your moral purity to the lives of children, literally sacrificing children so you can be clean. It’s it’s it’s very, like, mullocky and stuff.

Speaker 14:Now I would point out here that I think these characters are very, very rarely put in positions where they’re sexualized. I do not think the majority of the audience sexualizes these characters, but I think the conversation around them being sexualized is one that needs to be had because that’s the maximalist harm conversation.

Speaker 15:And these characters aren’t just some other thing, some leftist thing that never touches our world. Whether you’re talking about powder, leaflet, or yukieru, they exist within our community as well, and thus it’s a conversation we need to have.

Malcolm Collins:So what what can we see when we’re looking at large level population? So I think the biggest thing we can look at here, because this is just, a very easy one, is, population level stuff. now we have countries that have recently, which we’ll look at in a second, outlawed child content, like Japan, very, very recently. We’ll get to to when they outlawed that. But even with it outlawed. In Japan, they still, in shows, obviously, sexualized minors at pretty high rates. In in in well, I mean, this is just common, and and they’re

Simone Collins:Ubiquitous. Not common. You it’s It’s ubiquitous. That older women in in this, like especially in anime, or shows, it’s it’s it’s hard to see unless it’s, like, a show about old women. Yeah. Or, like, some old old person game show.

Malcolm Collins:So, I was actually reading a really fun, MAWA recently where, like, the core plot of it was that a guy went into one of these MAWA worlds, you know, like, transmigrated. And his sort of superpower in the world is that he found all women attractive because they were all drawn like MAWA women. And so, like, even when they had some horrible defect they’re ashamed of, it’s like a birthmark or, like, black hair or, like, freckles, and everyone else finds them, like, disgusting and, like, throws up when they talk to them. Amazing. Because it’s drawn like Mawa’s, and they all look young forever, obviously, and they all That is

Simone Collins:perfect. Oh my goodness.

Malcolm Collins:Cute. Yeah.

Simone Collins:I like that. Yeah. I like that.

Malcolm Collins:It’s a it’s a fun bit, but it is true to to a lot of these worlds. so first, Japan has lower rates of SA of children than The United States.

Simone Collins:Really? Wow. That’s fantastic. Actually, that makes a lot of sense, but that’s fantastic.

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. But I’ve I’ve I was gonna play devil’s advocate here. My my claim here would be, yeah, but Japan is a way more, like, a law and order country than The United States. And Japanese men are more timid than The United States. And Japan doesn’t have as many Muslim immigrants as The United States. Sorry. I didn’t say that last one. I’ve I’ve I’ve meant something else by that. Right. But well, I different cultures. Okay? We shouldn’t change their culture as their way of living. They just don’t No.

Simone Collins:Actually, you you’ve seen the the this going during the rounds on YouTube. They’re they’re now passing out pamphlets to people migrating to The UK. Oh

Malcolm Collins:god. Yes.

Simone Collins:Where we come from, we need to agree to sexual acts. Both people. Just you you need you no. You can’t just assume that because someone asked to borrow your lighter that they’re good to go. The more you know, that’s terrifying. I mean, it’s the the fact that they feel like they need to do this, not a great sign in my opinion. Let’s let’s not get too distracted, though. Anyway, I I agree with you. Cultural differences. Look. If the UK government is recognizing it to the extent that you need a pamphlet for new arrivals, we can talk about it.

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. And just so you understand how big the difference is between Japan and The United States, if you’re talking about the rate of SA per thousand children in Japan, it’s only zero point one five to 0.2, whereas in The United States, it’s 0.8 to 0.1. It’s, like, four, five x higher. It’s astonishingly higher.

Simone Collins:That is astonishing.

Malcolm Collins:So Yikes. Okay. Well, let in let’s let’s let’s try to control this. Let’s say, okay. Well, what about within Japan? Right? What what how did things change when things were outlawed? Okay? So the first ban against selling of this type of content happened in 1999. And then in starting 2015, they they began enforcing even personal possession of this kind of content. So it was not illegal until 2015. Wow.

Simone Collins:Okay? Okay.

Malcolm Collins:So let’s go over the effect that this had. if we look at, CP victims identified by the police in Japan, 2015, there were nine hundred and five. 2016, there was a thousand three hundred and thirteen. 2019, this was the peak, there was a thousand five hundred and fifty nine. 2024, there was a thousand two hundred and sixty five. So it appeared to precipitate a large jump in this behavior. Now, let’s look. There there is some data that makes it look like it could be good. Okay? So where you get, good data is on, assault. Okay? It’s it’s not a huge number, but it is a number. So in 2014, it went from 7400 to 2015, 6755 to 2016, 6188. Okay?

Simone Collins:Mhmm.

Malcolm Collins:This is an indecent assault. and you get even slightly better numbers on the, well, not really. the full on grape, 2014, you go from 1250 to 2,015, 1167. although by 2016, you do see a drop. This is the the one instance where I think you can you can make an argument for it to 989. So let’s look at the studies on this. Alright? A fun topic, by the way. Right, Simone? No. But I mean, this is something we need to engage with if people are making the claim. Like, we grew up in our childhood where everybody made the claim that, you know, if you like shooting people in video games, you’re gonna like shooting people in real life. And

Simone Collins:Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins:I grew up as a big fan of video games, and I was always really incensed

Simone Collins:by this. That yeah. That was so big then. If they like shooting people on video games, it’s inevitable. Yes. That was so odd.

Malcolm Collins:And the data has shown that this is not the case, but it took a while for people to agree on that. Mhmm. and I personally am not a big fan of VTubing. I what I mean is I don’t sit around and watch many VTubers. I watch Leaflet, really, and sometimes Kershov. And I understand Leaflet is what people could consider to be no. No. She’s just blatantly an underage character. The character she plays is very obviously underage. Phenotypically. I mean, she’s a slime, so she’s lived for her

Simone Collins:Well, and she’s a secretary.

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. And she has an adult job.

Simone Collins:Kind of administrative job as a teenager. I mean, I guess you used to, but, like, not these days. But, anyway, I see I see your point. She she is a young looking character.

Speaker 16:And not to call out Leaflet unique here, Lee. The other members of our community like Powder or Yukiyaru also have phenotypically young characters as their models.

Speaker 17:Oh, and almost forgot. Rev and Straub as well. And by the way, congrats to them for having a baby.

Malcolm Collins:I mean, we’re gonna be passing judgment on these other characters, we have to pass judgement. I mean, it is it’s not just like, Yuki Aru also young.

Simone Collins:And I Yuki Aru, well, talked about looking young. But, also, what Yuki Wataru talked about when she first thought about VTubing. Right? And her friend was like, your voice is just perfect for it. Because her voice just naturally sounds extremely young. And that’s almost like them implicitly understanding this trope of VTubers looking phenotypically very young. It’s as if that friend of hers knew the niche she should be in before she was. She thought it was like, oh, like, busty lewd tuber thing. And instead, it was like, no, girl. Your voice makes you sound super young. Like, that’s the point. It’s not the boobs. It’s the young, which is crazy. But yeah. I mean, it’s super interesting.

Malcolm Collins:So Her voice is great.

Simone Collins:I love her voice, by the way. It’s There was

Malcolm Collins:an interesting study that looked at this particular topic titled shoot. It doesn’t have the title here. Where where the where the freak is the title? Oh, self report sexuality harmful behaviors among fictional only and mixed CSEM users. Okay. So, basically, this was like, if you watch fictionalized young people, so, like, anime. Right?

Simone Collins:Okay. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins:What are your odds of doing something that would be considered essay versus if you watch some fictionalized so the fictionalized would be, like, anime, AI, cartoon, etcetera

Simone Collins:Mhmm.

Malcolm Collins:And some real. Right? Okay. So similar patterns were found for s conversations with oh, actually, I’ll I’ll go up here. Individuals in the mixed group were significantly more likely to report harmful behaviors. For example, seven point nine percent of the mixed group reported offline contact s related contact with a young person

Simone Collins:Oh.

Malcolm Collins:Compared to zero point five percent of the control group. Now the reason this is important is because if you look at the general population in The United States, between one and five percent of, adults have done this. So that means that of the group that was consuming only fictionalized content in this particular study, they had a rate of doing this that was half at at most the rate of the general population. Potentially, if if you go with the five percent number, 10 x lower than the general population. Whereas the group that was consuming real content had a rate above the general population, potentially significantly above depending on what number you go with.

Simone Collins:Well, which makes sense because there is really, I would argue, a meaningful divide between fake or illustrated stuff and real stuff. Like, if if what you really crave is inappropriate interaction with people at inappropriate ages, you’re not gonna wanna watch drawings. You’re gonna wanna get as close to the real thing as you possibly can. Right? I mean, that’s what makes sense.

Malcolm Collins:A good point. I mean, if if you and and one of the things that I think you need to accept, like, if if if we accept this first thing, like, from the vampire girl study and stuff like that, the rates of desiring this, especially within non Western populations. We did another episode on this, which is how the West ruined PDA files for everyone, which was a very fun, episode if you’re interested in digging deeper on this topic because the bans against this or stigmas against this are just not as common in countries that are not Western, specifically because in Western countries going back to the medieval period, people got married at much older ages. They they generally in the medieval period, in Europe, at least Northern Western Europe, it was normal for women to get married in their mid twenties, which you just don’t see anywhere else on earth during that period. And this has it had genetic effects. Like, northern Western Europeans can conceive much later than other popular any other ethnic group, which is helping us a lot with fertility rates. But, like, look. That that’s a totally different video. Check it out if you’re interested in checking it out. I mean, okay.

Simone Collins:Much later. Like, two years, but meaningful.

Malcolm Collins:Meaningful if you’re starting trying to have kids in your thirties or something.

Simone Collins:Absolutely. Yes. Yes. Every year counts.

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. So okay. Number of kids. where were we with this? Number was kids. Number was kids.

Simone Collins:Well, you’re talking about the control study versus No.

Malcolm Collins:No. What I was talking about is if you assume based on the data that we see that this is a heavily shamed thing in our society, but also a fairly normal thing from from the data we have access to. Mhmm. And if that’s the case, then having mechanisms that control the behavior is very, very important in a society. And if you don’t have those mechanisms in place, you’re going to have more real children being harmed by people who simply lack self control.

Simone Collins:Isn’t your argument where what didn’t the other research though kind of imply that? Well, I guess it it could only show correlation, though. I guess that’s

Malcolm Collins:Well, there was another study on this that you could go further on, which is understanding the use of c related s fantasy and fictional s materials by people who are attracted to c’s. Okay? Mhmm. And as a quote from the abstract here, it said, instead, there was evidence that s satisfaction was associated with lower levels of self reported willingness to offend and permissive attitudes about s interactions between adults and c’s.

Simone Collins:Oh, in other words, if you’re able to figure out how to enjoy yourself on that front without bothering anyone, you’re less likely to bother someone.

Malcolm Collins:You’re less likely to bother somebody.

Simone Collins:That’s good. We want that. Okay. Wow. That’s act that’s pretty meaningful in terms of people’s arguments about synthetic versions of this content because people are extremely against it, and their argument is almost always if you permit this synthetically, you are going to feed it in real life, and this is suggesting something to the

Malcolm Collins:audience. And the argument the data that they use to back that argument, which is really stupid data, is they will interview people who have done this and ask if they consumed fictional material first, which is not like that that’s like interviewing murderers and saying, did you play video games first? Right? Like Mhmm. Obviously, they probably consumed material at a higher rate than the general population. That doesn’t correlate with material being out there lowering the rates of this happening in the general population.

Simone Collins:Yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins:so one, I’m I’m just gonna make a few sort of binding points here. one is, first, I don’t even think that many of these characters are that particularly sexualized. You you look at, like, a Yukiyaru character or a Leaflet character, and they’re just non. They’re they’re they’re not sexualized. They don’t really bait their fans that much from what I see. They don’t

Simone Collins:Well, no. Yuki Waru also talked about this when we interviewed her. When she occasionally did it, especially after she adopted her newer character design. People are like, you don’t. Don’t you remember her saying that? Yeah.

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. They were like,

Simone Collins:oh important note. They’re like, don’t do that, please. That’s not appropriate. That’s not

Malcolm Collins:why we’re here. That’s not what

Simone Collins:we’re talking great. And, also, like, that goes to show that’s not what the audiences are here for. People just like cute things, and children are cute things.

Malcolm Collins:Sorry. No. I’ve yeah. I think that that that is genuinely one of them. And keep in mind, we have a society now with a child sized hole in its heart. Yeah. We have a lot Where

Simone Collins:are we gonna get it, guys?

Malcolm Collins:If you have all the kids on kids, who don’t have families, and who are transplanting this desire onto fictional characters who fill that particular role in their life. Yep. Mhmm. And I think that, you know, we we sort of many guys would rather, admit, like, deeply wrong sexual behavior than admit that they’re just deeply lonely and effed up Mhmm. In life and not finding the reproductive partner, which is really sad. It is sad. But I think that that’s one thing. you you just don’t see a lot of it’s not that you don’t see any. I’m just saying you see less than you see of equivalently famous, let’s say, cartoon characters. as to why that’s the case, would you have a thesis on that? I I might just be out of respect, to be honest. I think most people who form parasocial crushes on people with these types of avatars or even parasocial relationships do not want to disrespect them because they see them as real human beings in a way that they don’t see cartoons and stuff like that.

Simone Collins:Or they don’t want them flirting with the other fans.

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. Maybe they just keep it all to themselves.

Simone Collins:I mean, yes. It’s harder to imagine, you know, that they only have eyes for you. I I don’t know. No. I I really just I think and and the impression that Yuki Waru left me with was just people are like, no. That’s not what we’re here for. Like, don’t. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins:So first, there’s that. Second is they don’t actually look like children, and and this is very important. I have a lot of kids. Obviously, you know, I have five kids. I’m around them constantly, and I’m also a big fan of anime. And As are they. As are they. They they really like anime too. And I had this realization at one point where I saw characters in an anime that were, like, of the, you know, variety that was meant to look young, and I was just like, these in no way bring up a vision of, like, what my kids look like or act or move or anything. they are completely alien, this this, artistic style. And I think it can even be harmful to overly tie this style to this is a a real child. Right?

Simone Collins:Mhmm.

Malcolm Collins:Because it’s not.

Simone Collins:It’s obviously not. It’s so obviously not.

Malcolm Collins:Yeah.

Simone Collins:I mean, I think and and you could kinda see a similar thing going on with Rev where Rev’s like, look. I don’t wanna look at a dude this whole time. Like, I wanna look at a cute vampire. I think a lot of people, if they’re gonna watch a VTuber for a long time, make it cute. You know? I don’t wanna watch like, I wanna hear the ideas of an adult and know that they’re an adult, but don’t make me look at an adult. We have to look at adults

Malcolm Collins:all the time. Adult man. Eek.

Simone Collins:I know. It’s it is unfortunate. Make it make it stop. Make it stop.

Malcolm Collins:Well, this brings me to another point that I was gonna make around this, which is that as a society, we are going to have to build norms around how we think about this that have the end state of protecting real children. Like, I I think that that should be the goal always while also understanding, like, what what are people gonna do. So as as we move forward as society, more and more AR is gonna filter into our lives. And by that, what I mean is the people you interact with. You know, right now, it’s the VTubers only who you interact with through virtual avatars.

Simone Collins:Yeah. But soon your husband or wife can be a catgirl.

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. We’ll have AI technology that allows us to live as avatars. I’ll be able to, you know, leaflet watched the elections in anime. Had a system that translated the camera that she was looking at into an anime of the real world.

Simone Collins:Which elections? The

Malcolm Collins:last election cycle.

Simone Collins:You mean, like, the primaries in The United States?

Malcolm Collins:Yeah.

Simone Collins:Dude, what? I didn’t realize that. How did I miss that? That’s crazy.

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. It’s it’s a cool it’s a cool technology.

Simone Collins:Why did that But that technology is gonna become

Malcolm Collins:more and more ubiquitous as we begin to engage more and more in online environments, more and more with AI. and, you know, even if you are like, I wanna be a purist or whatever, you know, you know your kids are gonna be hanging out in the whatever the next version of VR chat rooms is and stuff like that.

Simone Collins:Yes.

Malcolm Collins:And as soon as having a never aging, always beautiful body is an option for women, a lot of women are going to opt into that. And the question is, how many of them are going to opt into these sorts of bodies? And I think that we have two contrasting things. Our society has a very strong stigma against this. And yet even with the existing stigma, nine out of 10 of the top VTubers, potentially more, use avatars like this. And they’re not nine out of the 10 top because, like, after they became top avatars, they decided to switch into bodies like this. You guys made them that. And that tells me something about society.

Simone Collins:Nothing surprising, though. This this isn’t surprising. People people have been favoring young people this whole time, and it’s not just men favoring younger looking women. Like, I I was going on about with that Canadian streamer that I was telling you about today

Malcolm Collins:that Yeah. Tell tell tell the fans the story. That was insane.

Simone Collins:Yeah. There’s I I I didn’t watch this documentary myself, but it’s a Netflix documentary called Thirst Trap, the fame, the fantasy, the fallout. And I listened to my favorite snark YouTuber, Denise, talk about it. It it’s a documentary about a Canadian TikTok creator named William White who, for whatever reason, somehow garnered this giant audience of ardent female fans who are, like, mothers and grandmothers. Like, these are all people with their like, they’re middle aged and older, like, forties and above. And many of these women were such ardent fans that they very enthusiastically participated in this Netflix documentary. Like, it included original footage of them, like, being filmed, super happy to talk about this guy. And there was this whole thing. Like, they figured out where he lived and and decided to, like, personally deliver gifts to him. He lived at his parents’ house. Like, he he wasn’t doing so well. How old was he? 21 years old. And there’s all these women who are, like, finding out where he lives. Like, this this kid’s younger. Okay. I mean, he’s 21 years old, so he is of drinking age. But he looks very childlike, and, like, he’s sort of famous for this slow wink and for lip syncing to songs. And women are just like, oh my god. Like, when he rolls his eyes, I just have to watch it again and again, and it’s disgusting. Like, it’s really creepy. And then he ended up hooking up with one of his fans. What was her her username was, like, Disney mama or something. Yeah. Disney mama was her username, which angered a bunch of the other fans who started piling on on her. And then at one point, things got really dark for him, and he wanted to, like, take a break from streaming on TikTok and, like, go to rehab. And people who were his fans threatened that they would end their lives if he stopped streaming, that they would I I like, I will just end it all. Like, really? Like, sir like like a like an abusive partner threatening. And it’s, I

Malcolm Collins:think we’re so used

Simone Collins:to hearing men doing this. Dude, this is freak out.

Malcolm Collins:We’re way less creepy than when women do this.

Simone Collins:Yeah. The the yeah. Like, if this were men if there if this were men doing this and and Netflix did a documentary on it, there would be people out which with pitchforks. And I never heard about this, and sure Denise had never heard about this until she watched the documentary, which came out, like, a year ago. So all this happened, and apparently no one cares. But, like, when a man looks at a a younger woman wrong, people get very angry. So, yeah, it’s it’s interesting. But it’s everyone likes young. Young means cuter and healthier and and all that, especially when it comes to romantic interest. People do not want to attempt to procreate with someone who’s not likely as fertile anymore. It’s normal.

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. Well, I mean, especially out of Europe. Yeah. Yeah. I I think more broadly, what we like, the the bigger thing to admit is, unfortunately, in a free market, nine out of 10 well, really, 10 out of 10 because the one that they say was not she’s she’s a high schooler. I’m sorry.

Simone Collins:No. No. No. No. No. No. No.

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. It’s 10 out of 10. 10 out of the 10 of the top ones. Mhmm. Look. And and and that’s just the algo. Okay?

Simone Collins:Oh, you could you could argue. I guess one one counterpoint is with anime, it’s so freaking hard. Like, everyone kinda looks like a child. Even when they try to draw adults kinda look like children.

Malcolm Collins:No. Gauru Gauru was not trying to draw a gender a genuine like, ambiguous character. No.

Simone Collins:That that’s a child. That’s a that’s a child. That’s a child. That’s a child.

Malcolm Collins:She’s a short princess. I love our daughter. I’m a

Simone Collins:shark princess. So freaking much. Oh my god. She always attacks from above. Above.

Malcolm Collins:She climbs on things. They’ve all learned this tactic because then they can jump on me.

Simone Collins:She’ll get you when you least expect, though, and always from the wronging. Like, you never expect a four year old to come flying at you from the sky. Anyway.

Malcolm Collins:Anyway. Yeah. And I and I also don’t really get this from these fan bases either. Like, you know, I I do leaflets show a lot. And, like, do I think that her fan base is a bunch of PDA files?

Simone Collins:Like No. They’re a bunch of intellectuals and fun people.

Malcolm Collins:No. I don’t I don’t I don’t think that. And I think that, like, you can you can, you know, grind your gear there whatever you wanna say. Like, whinge and and and shout like an old man who’s angry that the times are changing at the sky and everything like that. But the reality is is norms are changing, the time is changing, and it’s gonna change even more dramatically as soon as anyone can wear the skin of any avatar they want. And I think that we should focus a lot more on protecting children and a lot less on trying to look like we care about protecting children. Mhmm. Because that can really leave children vulnerable because you’re you’re wasting your time on that it either doesn’t matter or is directly counted, you know, bad. Absolutely. So any parting thoughts, Simone?

Simone Collins:Maybe no. No. No.

Malcolm Collins:I mean, I do think it’s an interesting phenomenon. And the and the thing that I note most about this phenomenon is it’s definitely a chain like, when I was a kid okay? I I won’t even say when I was a kid. I’d say ten years ago. If you had said VTubing is gonna become popular, I’d say, yeah. I could believe that. Yeah. And then 10 out of the 10 top models look like children for women. I’d be like, well, like, isn’t that, like, some sort of a big scandal? And then people would be like, you know, honestly, people are more scandalized that they’re anime characters and that they look like children. And it’s like, oh. Yeah. In fact, people are more scandalized that it turns out that one of them has a kid and is 40.

Simone Collins:I’m like, wait.

Malcolm Collins:The nerve rap. That she’s not an actual child, that seems backwards. Yeah.

Simone Collins:That does seem backwards. I I guess this isn’t as relevant of a note because our audience is majority male. However, I think, you know, messages like these, I think, may make some women feel even more uncomfortable with the fact that they inevitably are going to age. And I think we should all just acknowledge that attempting to look young forever, you just can’t pull it off. Once you’re not a kid anymore, you’re not fooling anyone. You’re gonna look like a woman who’s had work done instead of just a woman of your age.

Malcolm Collins:And, you know use an avatar. You could start VTubing.

Simone Collins:Think could you use an avatar and start VTubing if you have a young enough sounding voice, and maybe you can pull it off. Sure. However, I think this is downstream of a desire to feel wanted and needed and loved. And if that’s really what you want, you can. If you can have children, you can have children and be famous with your children and so loved and so wanted and so needed. And all of the interest I’ve ever had in, like, in those things has been completely and utterly satisfied by children. Like, I to to the extent where I’m like, ugh, too famous. They need me too much. They’re constantly calling my name. Like, you know but but it’s there. It that that solves it. And I think a lot of that that that yearning that women feel is just misdirected yearning for parenting, that our society is too sick to recognize as yearning for parenting. And they’re instead like, oh, no. No. No. It’s for fame. I promise. But it’s really not. The other element of this is you could also be wanted and needed by your community. There are so many people I know who are really involved in their communities, be they online or offline, who similarly have that same level of being needed because they’re meaningfully contributing. Not because they look young or because they’re using some form of implied or otherwise sexuality to attract it, but because they’re providing genuine value to other people. So I think I just wanna point out to anyone who feels this pressure to, like, look young because they think that young people are wanted or needed. No. Just start providing value, and you’ll be wanted or needed. And it’s really not that hard to provide value. Sometimes just listening to people is all the value they’ve ever wanted. They just want someone to listen to them. So, anyway, that’s that’s my stupid 2¢, but whatever.

Malcolm Collins:Very, no. I agree with everything you’re saying there. Are you gonna VTube one day?

Simone Collins:No. Because I look. I’m, I’m trans 62. I’ve always felt

Malcolm Collins:like You want to be an old lady?

Simone Collins:Yeah. Look. I was a 62 year old born in the body of someone a different age. So once I’m finally old, I’m

Malcolm Collins:gonna be so old. Gonna be that you start VTubing and then they find out that you’re not a 62 year old? You’re

Simone Collins:actually No. They see it. Yes. I’ll VTubers like an old woman, and they’ll be like, she’s in her forties. She’s not 60. She’s not 70. She’s not 80. They’ll be so mad.

Malcolm Collins:I even wonder, like, your voice as a VTuber. It would come off as so shocking to me because it’s so Yeah.

Simone Collins:Wait. Yeah. How does that how would that come across?

Malcolm Collins:Unusual for a VTuber. Yeah. Are you pulling up one of

Simone Collins:our avatars? Yeah. But it it just doesn’t come through. Like, she needs a my high voice is because I’m a beautiful mermaid woman. It doesn’t work that way. Yeah. It just it really it it doesn’t work at all. It doesn’t work. You could see my voice doesn’t match. Your voice needs to be high and cute if you’re an anime girl. Everyone knows this.

Malcolm Collins:It’s like gods about it.

Simone Collins:That is not what she sounds right. I have to like, I would be like the octopus evil woman or whatever, you know, some some old fish. I’m not the beautiful mermaid who’s talking with her flowing hair and her stupid ears. That’s just not who I am, and that’s my fault. I come up short. I’m gonna okay. I’m gonna do

Malcolm Collins:the trick. You did a wink. Oh my god. I love it. Art Fab, by the way, people. You can stream on here. She she did this live

Simone Collins:while Leaflet, yeah, this is the Art Fab adaptation of what she built. So teamwork makes the dream work. I think it’s a really cool tool. I love what you I love how accessible you made it because

Malcolm Collins:Yeah.

Simone Collins:Yeah. And and making those avatars is so fun because at every stage when it finishes a little bit, it goes quest complete.

Malcolm Collins:Quest complete. And leaflet voice.

Simone Collins:I love it. I love it.

Malcolm Collins:I had to realize what a bad voice you have for VTubing. Wait.

Simone Collins:I’ve been I have a terrible voice for VTubing. I cannot VTube unless I’m VTubing as an old woman. I’m telling you. I’m trans old.

Malcolm Collins:No. Okay. I think you could VTube as, like, a tomboy.

Simone Collins:As a tomboy? Can I can I tomboy like, a chicken? Can I be a does this work? May no. Not even. No. This is a hi. You know? I’m a I’m a chicken. I’ll make a

Malcolm Collins:tomboy avatar for you for our tomboy episode. That’s what we need.

Simone Collins:Okay. I think we could do that. I think we could

Malcolm Collins:do tomboys in the bible. That’s that’s what I’m all about.

Simone Collins:Look. This is what you you’re stuck with this until you get your AR glasses that make me look like whatever. So and it like, by like, your sexy puritan woman.

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I no. It’s actually funny, is the degree to which, like, I think people because I’m not, like, a big into VTubing person, as I said. Like, there’s some VTubers I watch, but I watch them for their politics.

Simone Collins:I think that’s how it is with everyone. I don’t think a single person watches a VTuber because of the way that they look.

Malcolm Collins:No. Disagree. Because there is one VTuber who I occasionally watch because I like her shtick. Who? Tomoshan. Tomo the the the tomboy horse horse girl. Okay. I think I think she’s really cute.

Simone Collins:Gotta love the horses

Malcolm Collins:there. So No. No. No. Her whole thing is about being a a Tomoyumiri. Yeah. It’s about being a you can look her up.

Speaker 11:Everybody always is like, oh, you grow out of being a tomboy. You know, eventually, you’ll be more ladylike or whatever, but I only had older brothers growing up.

Simone Collins:Oh, yeah. I’ve seen her on your screen. I’ve seen her on your screen? Yes. I’ve seen her. There are many people on your screen, to be fair. Is is she inspired by that horse girl anime? I don’t think

Malcolm Collins:well, she might be. Who knows? But she definitely it’s it’s one of the few that, like, does not look remotely underage.

Simone Collins:Oh, yeah. Fair. I mean, she looks young.

Malcolm Collins:She looks like 20. Young. Yeah. Looking.

Simone Collins:Yeah. No. She looks like yeah. She looks like she’s in her twenties.

Malcolm Collins:Twenties. Yeah.

Simone Collins:Yeah.

Malcolm Collins:But very, very tomboy in her aesthetics, which I think you could pull off. You could pull it off.

Simone Collins:I don’t think I can pull off anything but old woman, but I like her her weird, like, strap headdress to try to make up for, like what do they call them? The horsey horsey hats. Bridal. The bridle. Okay. Anyway, I’ll see myself out.

Malcolm Collins:You’ll see yourself out.

Simone Collins:Enough for this. This is not I can’t VTube. I can’t talk. I can’t word, but I sure do love you.

Malcolm Collins:I love you too. and, now everyone’s gonna say all these horrible things in the comments. How dare you support this?

Simone Collins:Well, have you noticed? I don’t know if you I I watch all the leftists and listen to all the leftist YouTubers and podcasters. Pedo is the new Nazi. Do you understand this? And degen? Like, I don’t know why they’re they’re accusing us of being degen now, which is very interesting.

Malcolm Collins:They’re the ones who normalize this style.

Simone Collins:But we are now instead of being Nazis, we’re pedo degens. I don’t know why they dropped the Nazi thing. I guess it just kind of lost its

Malcolm Collins:I love there was an analysis of the people tied to the Epstein case. Republican, what percent were Democrat, and it was a 99% Democrat. Wow. Like, no. Like, I love that all all these right wing people are pedos. It’s like, no. Really? That’s just Andrew Tate. You know, that’s you know? Did you know Turkey Tom just did a big expose on him? So

Simone Collins:Another one? Wow. So there’s still stuff to expose? I feel like man.

Malcolm Collins:I didn’t know Turkey Tom had done one on him before.

Simone Collins:Well, I was referring to the New Yorker.

Malcolm Collins:No. But Turkey Tom is the Internet guy who does the deep dives. Right? You know? So vindicated on that one, by the way.

Simone Collins:Because Oh, because oh, because oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of the people listening to our episode were like, the New Yorker. I never trust what a New Yorker investigative journalist would say.

Malcolm Collins:They’re

Simone Collins:crazy. Just just because they’re with the New Yorker.

Malcolm Collins:Just because they’re with the publication. To, like, trans communities and stuff as well-to-do, like, breakdowns. Like, he’s think to right wing people, he’s fairly neutral, and not one where you’re just gonna be like, oh, he’s not being honest about this. and he absolutely was a PDA file.

Simone Collins:Well, I wonder then well, yeah, dude. I mean, all the all the and and look when we spoke with V earlier this week yesterday. Oh, yeah. He’s like yeah. He’s like, the reason why Andrew Tate ultimately got in trouble in Romania was because he went after the daughter of a prominent politician. And, like, he was kinda fine until he made the grave mistake of going after the wrong child. People were willing to turn the other direction to to take bribes. But then, I guess, when you come for politicians’ kids and all of her friends, maybe that’s a step too far, which is a part of the story that at least wasn’t covered in the New Yorker. So good good insight. Yeah. Maybe Turkey Tom talks about that.

Malcolm Collins:That’s that is an issue. Yeah. I hadn’t we hadn’t talked about that either. But, yeah, the the the the wider point here being is it’s weird that they want to accuse the right of this when, like, they normalized all of this and this is their their world. And we can say, well, why on the right are we normalizing? It’s because you you don’t want to lose the culture war. If you lose the culture war, you lose culture. And a lot of, you know, our top player like, Rev says Like, imagine if you’re like, everyone who likes Rev says Desu is a petu. By the way Petu? Revan Revan Straub just had a kid.

Simone Collins:I’m so excited. Would this did they not have a kid before? Is this their

Malcolm Collins:first kid? This is their first kid as far as I’m aware.

Simone Collins:That’s so wonderful. That’s really exciting. I hope it all went well for them.

Malcolm Collins:Yeah. Birth

Simone Collins:birth stories don’t always you know? Like, the actual process don’t always work out.

Malcolm Collins:And, again, you guys didn’t need to make Roe whatever the top right wing VTubers. Okay? That that was you guys plus the algorithm who did that. Like, we either have to admit human nature or sit here, you know, screaming at the sky that that the the the timeline isn’t going in the direction we want it to.

Simone Collins:The timeline goes as it must go and will go and has gone and always will be.

Malcolm Collins:Alright. Have a fun one. if you guys want to do, AI stories or, video recordings like this one or make avatars or, like, living Yeah.

Simone Collins:You can make your own PNG VTuber or, like, actual VTuber rig that you can then refine on your own. Malcolm built the actual VTuber rigging system. Leaflet built, which is accessible easily on our FAB, the PNGTuber thing, which you saw me demonstrate.

Malcolm Collins:Rfab.ai. And keep in mind, we let you use your own APIs. So, like, if you wanna use, you know, your own Claude API or something like that to not spend a bunch of money on the site, that’s totally fine. Especially if you’re doing coding or something Mhmm. It allows you to, like, give your coding agents personalities in ways that you just can’t with regular coding agents, or or or you just don’t have the rigging to do. But they also another thing I suggest everybody anybody who’s using AI for coding these days should be using our API because it lets the agents call you, which is very useful. Like, whenever they reach a stopping point, they can call you and be like, hey. Can you give me that number? Can you give me the whatever? That helps me code a lot faster. they can create images. They can create videos. and, obviously, the thing that most people use a website for, is either the base AI system, which I recently improved, Rhodes, now remembers in between messages. There was a change in the API that made it forget what was happening in between messages, so I had to fix that. Sorry about that, guys. that was made without anyone telling me. And we also do a lot of, like, story adventure stuff, adventure concept generation. Just have

Simone Collins:fun with it. It’s delightful. Bye. Bye.

Malcolm Collins:Well, this this one’s gonna be spicy. We’ll see. We’ll see. I love you very much. You’re an amazing woman. Thank you for being married to me. Another day.

Simone Collins:Love you so much. Thank you

Malcolm Collins:for trying to be cute. You’re good at it? For your age, of course, which is something we’ll be talking about in this episode.

Simone Collins:Oh, fantastic. Great. Okay. Wonderful. I love my life. It’s so too dark. Alright.

Speaker 12:I think they don’t eat pine cones. Don’t eat pine cones? Oh, thank you. Thanks. Yeah. Thank you, Titan. Can you put them in the basket for us? Okay. Yeah. Tosi? Flowers up ahead. I wanna get some Lots of flowers up ahead. Let’s keep going.

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