When the Old Maps No Longer Work: What Leadership Requires in the Meta Crisis

0:00Welcome to this very special edition of the KJ Master Class Life. We will learn from him about his pivot methodology, methodology,

1:02a consciousness in form framework for developing anti-fragile resistance and imaginable intelligence will learn about that to thrive in our sense uncertainty. Welcome to the show, Dev. It's very good to be here. It's nice to see you. You're welcome. Welcome to the show. Dev, welcome to India in this online form. And I'm sure not just in India, but a lot of people across the globe will benefit from what we are going to talk right now. You'll talk about how one can navigate the modern beta crisis. We'll talk about all this, but before that, let's learn a bit about your journey, your background so that people know who they are listening to. Sure. So I'm based outside of Lizanne Switzerland and I work globally. I've been working as a leadership coach and an expert in human development for a long time. If I had hair, it would be white. So more than 30 years. Prior to that, I had a career in national security. And my coaching practice started to evolve and shift in a significant way during the pandemic.

2:09So what I noticed is my clients who would be possibly corporate leaders, NGO leaders, founders, also other coaches, and consciousness explores people invested in their self-development. We're all kind of hitting walls, not just because of the pandemic, but since then, how to make sense of the world, how to navigate it, either in their personal or professional lives. So short while ago, I shifted my practice. I call it the pivot because we can no longer rely just on our best practices, what we've learned, how we've navigated, because the maps have changed. So I focus much more on personal and professional transformation, how to build capacity, how to make sense, how to navigate, how to stay grounded, how to be effective, and frankly even thrive. Because I may be unique, but I'm an optimist. These times that we're in are very uncertain and tumultuous,

3:13but I see it as a transition time. In fact, I'm already excited at some of the emergent possibilities that are happening. Absolutely, Dave. So let's take this into, you know, into ways. One is about the leadership and one is about the metacrisis. Yeah. So first about the leadership itself. Why are leaders so worried? Who are these leaders so worried? Because a lot of the problems that have been created are also from this very leader of the leadership itself. So help us understand that backdrop. What is it that they want to fix that they themselves broke? Yeah. It's a fascinating question, right? There's a lot of layers to this. And I can even bring up my own experience. You know, I remember I and my colleagues, we go out to Happy Hour, have beers, and we would promise each other, we would never do what our bosses were doing, right? And then we would get promoted and we would start doing exactly the same thing.

4:14So what is it in the system? What are the invisible forces at play? That led me to, you know, a study of systems theory and eventually into coaching. I think to get to your question, we're always trying to do our best. We're trying, you know, leaders became leaders because they can think fast. They're somewhat accomplished in their fields of expertise. But that's a different set of muscles than leading people. Then orchestrating, then inspiring. So when things go crazy, unexpected, the market shifts or supply chains freeze up, we go into problem solving. And where do we go for problem solving? We go to the past experiences. So that's where the double dilemma is, you know, leaders are kind of defaulting back to problem solving, but in outdated ways. So how do you shift? How do you become more agile? How do you flex and adapt and also allow for emergence of new possibilities?

5:18Absolutely. So when you talk of being agile, you have got the biggest advantage with the artificial intelligence. What else do you want? I think that problem. What do you say of that? That's a cut, that's a whole nother show. That's a big deal. Yeah, I mean, this is part of the metacrisis, right? We've got layers of very, very fast change. I mean, if you look at just the development of AI just in the past six months, much less here, you know, how do you grapple with that? How do you bring that into your companies? You know, companies are already discovering that the heavy investment that they made early on isn't paying off. Now what do they do? So this is part of the metacrisis, you know, the traditional way of grabbing onto something implementing it, using it, blanketing that out through the world is not going to work. You know, we have a higher level of interdependency than ever before.

6:18You know, the globalization of our work. So all you have to do is look at just in the past few weeks, the internet outages that we've had, you know, the shutdowns that have occurred and how they can paralyze entire systems. So there's a level of volatility and fragility that requires a different kind of leadership. Absolutely. So let's bring in the metacrisis here now. What is this modern metacrisis that you talk about? Yeah, people call it different things, you know, they call it the polycrisis, which may be more accurate because it's multiple levels. It's everything from the emergence of AI, the change of the nature of work post-pendemic, the climate change, geopolitical fractions and splintering in ways that, you know, we haven't seen in a long time. So, you know, any one of those would have been huge, but the pile, all of them on, still the after-glow of the pandemic, potential future pandemics.

7:22So there's a there's a period of uncertainty and some people think of it as the end of times or, you know, go very much into a kind of a doom and gloom scenario, which is understandable. And I'm not saying that this is a, you know, a done deal, we can still mess up. But any change in history and human history has had periods of tumultuous disintegration of old systems. I just think that they're multi-layered right now. So there's a complexity that we're not really well equipped to navigate. So what's the cause for some new skills? Absolutely. So what is it that you, you know, in the backdrop of leadership, leadership crisis, in the backdrop of meta crisis, what is it that you are trying to tell the world or to anyone whoever is your target audience, Dave here? Yeah, whether it's a corporate leader or, you know, someone who's just trying to become

8:26more of themselves and their own human development, I think how do you do that kind of transformation work inside a meta crisis? And first of all, it requires a, I call it a pivot, a shift where we're not just relying on what we've done in the past. So how do we allow for the new, the emergent, the creativity? A lot of that is inner work. So when I work with a client, we'll start with foundations, you know, you know, anything from mindfulness practices, somatic experiencing, whatever gets you into, in touch with your inner intelligence. And then we need to work on relational space, you know, so often, especially at the speed of our lives these days, our relationships have been reduced to transactional elements. There's a lot of information, intelligence even, that comes through the relational space. Like you and I, I'm in Switzerland, you're in India, yet there's a connection. So what's going on for you? Can I sense that or at least hypothesize your mood?

9:30What's going on for you? And then what's going on in the space between us? And all of this is being received through my body, energetically, physically, emotionally. So paying attention to all of those is a huge upgrade, if you will, in our capacity to navigate. And you know, in our world, and especially in the leadership world, we're moving so fast that a lot of these things are pushed aside and we default to old ways. You know, we stay in our head. We go very cognitive, for example. Absolutely. So why why are leaders struggling to get the answers? Why are they not going to the and that is where I bring the third most important, but the most important is the people itself. Why is it that they are not looking at people and learning from them? How are people absorbing all the mistakes and the good parts that leaders are leadership is trying to do or have done and still are being happy in every part of the world.

10:32And are still very hopeful in spite of having much, much less. Then the combined leadership of a few, you know, bank companies or leadership and all, and they are, they are look, they look, they look very much thinking about the world, which is, which is not very much digestible. So why is it that they only forget about, you know, think about themselves, never bring people into the equation. And then they remember the people, only when everything is gone. And then they think, okay, let's find meaning in our lives. Let's go back to the same people whom we discarded and we're always running behind our bank accounts. Help us understand from, where the leaders should learn from, Dave. Yeah, I appreciate your perspective. And I understand where it comes from. I think I'm really fortunate because as I get to know leaders and people are trying to be leaders in their lives, by the way, not just corporate leaders. They actually do care. They care deeply.

11:34They're doing what they think they know how to do best for that. Some leaders do default to the doing, the managing, they forget their relationships. Absolutely. I'm very busy as a coach in that world. But I see a lot of leaders deeply, they're walking the floor as at 3 a.m. They're worried. They're concerned about their people. When they go to the people, the people are even more terrified. They're in gridlock. They're paralyzed. They don't know what to do. So there's kind of a collective, almost a cultural looking back to what did we do before that worked. And then when it does at work, there's kind of a panic, right? And then we default. We do it even more. You know, it's like if I go to a country where I don't understand the language, what do I do? I speak in English, even louder. And that's what we do. The louder and louder and louder. So I think the role of leadership, there's a misunderstanding that if I'm a leader, I'm

12:35supposed to have all the answers. I'm always supposed to look like I'm calm under pressure. And I can instill, you know, everything's fine. We need more vulnerability. We need more imaginal space in our leaders, the creative space, the space for something new to emerge. That's a different kind of dialogue with their people. You know, saying, I don't know where we're going, but I'm here with you. We're going to do this together. Absolutely. So let's understand your, you know, pivot capability that you talk about. It also talks about in your own words, the essential leadership skill for thriving, upbeat, rapid change, while maintaining meaning and effectiveness. Now what is this meaning? Let us understand, don't these leaders understand the meaning, which is also in the vision of every company that it has to be for the people.

13:35Can we for profit, but ultimately it comes down to solving the pain, the problems of the people. Why is it that they forget this part and always try to look only at the bottom line and again only at the bank accounts? What is this meaning? How are you able to put this string a drill into their heads about the meaning part when the themselves are in crisis and have never tried to understood this part? A lot of people, these people like they, they always talk about big. They always think to be talking about solving the problems of the world. But when it comes to the real problems, you see them running faster than chicken. Wow. Yeah, well, this meaning thing, this is a big deal because there is actually a longing for meaning in all of us. Leaders are no different. In fact, I'd say the pain level is even higher because when you go to the top of an organization

14:35is pretty lonely up there. I find that in the C-suite, C-level CEOs, that's lonely. That's different than being inside the organization, right? And they often will put aside their own personal development in trying to do the work. What I keep finding over and over again is it's returning to the individual, returning to the values, the longing for meaning. What I mean by meaning is making a difference. This isn't just about profitability. In fact, I've never met a true leader that was in it for the money. Never. So they're really inspired to make a difference in the world and that's what gives the meaning. So this isn't a plaque or a frame on the wall of an organization that exposes values. That has some value. But are you walking your talk? And are you at that 3am when you're by yourself? What sustains you?

15:37What holds you? What's your navigation system? So meaning and values, creating a GPS for leaders is one of the critical aspects of this. And they shift, right? As we grow and evolve, our values change. There are some fundamental ones that stay the same, but also the complexity of life, the maturing that comes, the wisdom. Things aren't as black and white. So how do you navigate that? Absolutely. I understand there are many, many good leaders. There's a lot of percentages, very good leaders. So does it mean that while you are in leadership position, that position does not allow you to find meaning as well as you know, meaning for yourself, meaning for public and meaning for the company also at the same time? Is it because that you ate ill retirement and then realize the meaning of life when people think it's all, you know, all BS, even if you had droop, people would not leave it.

16:41You don't want to be on your deathbed figuring this out. You're absolutely right. No, I think the fact that you know, leaders are no different than anyone else. And we all have a tendency to move past. We don't spend time on these reflections and practices. You know, we jump into the doing. You know, we see the cultural approved path for success and we jump right into it. I go to college. I get married. I have kids. I have a career. But you know, what all that has been changing? So the path isn't clear anymore. So I think we're all in this together. You know, there's a quote by Ram Das that really serves as my operating system and that is we're all just trying to help each other come home. And that's really the motivation. And there's an intimacy in my coaching that, you know, when we get to that level of conversation, it's quite special. You know, we connect on that longing that is amongst all of us. Absolutely. So, Dave, is your work, you know, very easy or very difficult in these times?

17:45Because these leaders are brilliant people. They have achieved a lot. But what they have achieved not is, you know, perhaps the meaning and other things. If they come to you, what is it that they come to you for generally? Dave? And how are you able to help them if they are not able to help themselves? Because they lead so many thousands of people and still they need your help. You know, I think that's why I like working with leaders. There is a humility at some point that comes in. You're kind of brought to your knees. Like I can't figure this one out. You know, when I'm young and am I my 30s, I'm in my 40s, I'm driving. I'm proving myself. I'm climbing the ladder. But you know, with seasoning, age, maturity and experience, there comes a time where the leader realizes their strong muscles don't work anymore. That's not enough. They've got to harness people as to your point. And there's a point of suffering and humility that I find is the sweet spot to come in as

18:45a coach. So they're usually seeking me out sometimes for very practical reasons, how to handle fragmentation, how to have better gravitas, kind of how to be a better leader. But usually what's underneath that is more of the existential questions. Around meaning, why am I doing this? How can I be better? I'm losing connection not only with my family, but myself. How do I regain that? So those pain points are usually what are bringing people in. Now, it's true that many leaders are leaders because of their, you know, their talents, their capabilities and their cognitive horse powers. They have a tendency to be very strong from the shoulders up, right? So waking up the somatic intelligence, waking up the emotional intelligence, waking up the relational intelligence is, you know, a lot of what my work is. Do I find it hard? No, I find it beautiful work. I feel very privileged. I love it.

19:45I have a front row seat to some amazing people doing amazing things, not just in the corporate world, but in their lives, you know, people that are trying to be the best father and mother they can while navigating the complexity of life. Nothing gives me greater pleasure than supporting people like that. Absolutely. And you also bring in imaginal intelligence. What is that? Yes. You must understand that. Yeah. That's pretty strange sound, isn't it? Yeah, you know, we're so, we're so good with the rational, you know, all of us have been schooled. We've, now I can go into education, you know, some of the metacrisis we've lost are critical thinking of capabilities, but we tend to over index on the rational. You know, I would even propose some of what's contributed to the metacrisis is being over rational. There's not enough around imagination. There's not enough around creativity so that constantly going back to what's been tried and true in the past, that's not so imaginative.

20:47And it doesn't fit with the fast changing landscape that we're in. So it calls for being creative. It also calls for giving space for something to emerge. So if you're a leader, how do I give space for my people and my team for creative energies to emerge with something new? If I'm a working father and I'm trying to raise my kids in this crazy, crazy world, how do I not default to what my dad did with me? How do I allow emergent of a new way of parenting? So that's the imaginal. That's bringing in the imagination. We need more imagination and imaginal muscles because we're way too rational. Absolutely. But is it possible? But you answered this as part of this question that is coming. Is that when you talk of the metacrisis? Is the metacrisis yet to come? How far we are from it? Are we undergoing a metacrisis?

21:48When will this end? And what does the post metacrisis look like? Yeah. Great. Can we do a whole show? So if I knew the end of the metacrisis have a very wealthy man, are we in it? We sure are. We're up to our elbows in it. Can it get more complex? Probably. We're in a transition period where old ways are crumbling and breaking down. But I'm already seeing exciting signs of new ways. My advice to your audience is be careful of your echo chambers. Bring in some of the edge thinkers, the people, the futurists, the people that are already doing things, new ways of living together, community building, new ways of education reform. There's a lot happening that's already emergent. Just in dealing with one layer like the climate crisis, what's going on in Spain around reconfiguring? That's going on in your country. India is one of the leaders in tackling this.

22:49So this is the emergent. This is the new. So this is why we're in the, it's why it's so important to bring this in because not everything is doom and gloom. It's messy. It's hard. We could still not make it. That's always been a possibility. But I'm super optimistic. Especially when I look at the youth. The level of consciousness in the youth today is extraordinary. I'm odd. I was in a retreat in the black forest. Then I had 20 and 30 year olds mixed in with people my age and their level of awareness and consciousness. Boy, if I had that at that age, so I'm hopeful. Absolutely. And when you are hopeful and when you talk of consciousness, you also talk of conscious informed leadership. What do you want leadership? People talk of hardship, leadership, servant leadership, empathetic leadership. And now conscious in this informed leadership.

23:52What is it about consciousness? Let me just go back to the jungles and learn from there and come back into the mainstream. Absolutely. Actually, I would say conscious leader is all of those things. So if I can be aware of what's needed, can I create followership? Can I tune in? Am I aware of what's going on inside me, my own internal dialogues? Can I be curious what's going on inside you and take the time and find out, slowing down to speed up the value of the moment, the breath, recharge. All of those are elements of conscious leadership. So raising consciousness, raising awareness. And I would even say back to your earlier point on, imagine is expanded consciousness. Like how do you actually leverage the different conscious states that you can move in? That's very powerful. Absolutely. So the present generation of leadership, do you think they will survive till the end of

24:55the meta crisis? Do you think they will all get subsumed in this whole process? And at the end, it will be a new sort of leadership which will not need to learn about things, which will be born with those qualities like we were born with empathy, but forgot midway. That would be awesome. That would be really cool if there was a whole reset for humanity. I don't know. I think it could go either one of those scenarios is entirely plausible. I think the key is to focus on what do we have now and what do we need to do now and build that capacity. I think there's something about momentum. My intuition tells me there's so much going on in the world, around raising consciousness for example, around bringing in the imaginal. There's all kinds of things going on that just didn't even exist 15, 20 years ago. I think the center of gravity, if you will, of human development, whether you follow an

25:57evolutionary model or a spiritual model, I think it is accelerating, going back to the young generations that are coming in with that capacity. I'm not sure trying to find the answer to your question is all that important with either scenario being possible. Absolutely. Let's look at it this way. You talk about navigating the meta crisis and emerging future with wisdom, grace and antifragile resilience. Now wisdom, even the saints were very wise and they lived their life nicely. Do you have to go and find wisdom from where else? Do they find this wisdom, which they will talk about? What is it? Something else. Grace, a lot of human existence. But they forgotten it. Why did they forget it? Who is to be blamed? Where do they get it back and how do they get it back? Can it be bought on Amazon or in barrels? That would be outstanding.

26:59Antifragile resilience. How do you have? Maintain that. All these things. Sure. Well, let me go backwards. So antifragility is starting to build practices, building a good platform that allows that. I think, you know, how I would answer this, I think, is it's my stance that there's nothing wrong. If I'm working with you, it's not that you're broken and you need to be fixed. That's a major mindset that's problematic for a lot of reasons. Instead, I hold, can I hold the space for your unfolding? You know, there's a famous quote by Michelangelo that the statue of David was already in the marble and his job was to chip away the excess marble, the not needed marble. And that's how I view this. I think it's, you know, we forget. You know, if you go back in time and look at indigenous people, look back in history, there was a sensitivity, a consciousness, a connectivity that we think is almost magical.

28:02That was just part of the day to day living. That we've forgotten it or we've been blocked by it. So I think my work with leaders or with anyone is really, you know, helping them remember who they are, help them come home to themselves, chip away those unneeded pieces of marble. You know, it really is a remembering. Absolutely, absolutely. There is so much to learn about all this from you. And I'm sure a lot of leaders and a lot of people who would want to understand more from you about all this and perhaps also be your client. What is the best way for them to do so? Sure. I have a website that has all kinds of information, ways to connect through podcasts, newsletters, et cetera, schedule calls. And it's my name, so it's DaveShove.com. You'll see the name of the pivot, which is the name of the work that I do. Wonderful. With this, it's a wrap on this very special edition of the KJ Masterclass Life.

29:03Thank you so much, indeed, for joining us. It was a real pleasure.