When Justice Fails Survivors: Punishment, Healing, and the Truth We Avoid

0:00Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Policing and America podcast. Today's guest is Marley Liss. Marley is an advocate. She's a speaker. She's an author. She's the founder of survivors for justice reform. Marley's work focuses on helping survivors reclaim healing and justice while challenging how institutions respond to sexual violence. Through her advocacy, writing and her public speaking, she's helped spark deeper conversations about trauma, accountability and what justice truly means for survivors. Just a quick note, we do talk a little bit about sexual violence. Marley shares a little bit of her story, so just be prepared if that might be something that's triggering for you. I just want you to know that that's going to be coming right afterwards. But it's an incredible guest. She's an incredible human being who's doing amazing work. So without further delay, I give you Marley Liss.

1:04Thank you so much for being on the show. And before we get into the advocacy, the reform, before we get into all your work, can you please share with our listeners your journey? What happened in your life that put you on this path? And that has given you so much strength and resilience and fortitude to hold this path? Yeah, well, I love the way you framed that because I think we often lead with our job titles, but most of us have a story, whether it's something we've experienced directly or indirectly that led us into the work that we do, right? So absolutely for me, like my background is in social work and it isn't so mad at healing, but more than anything else, it is lived experience that led me here. And for me, I was a college student when I ended

2:06up experiencing rape from a man that I didn't know. And I didn't know about any justice options beyond, you know, report to the police and go to court or do nothing at all. And those were really the two options I was presented with when I went to the hospital and I did a rape kit. And because I didn't want nothing at all, I ended up reporting and going through this very painful three-year sexual assault court process. And for anyone who's been through that or who has supported people through that, you know how re-traumatizing that can be. And just how much it gets in the way of our healing. So for me, by the time I was subpoenaed for the criminal trial, I had for a lot of reasons, really lost faith in the system. And I just started thinking like there's got to be something else, something less traumatic, something less dehumanizing. And I started doing

3:12my own research, which I'm very adamant survivors shouldn't have to do that when we're in crisis. And that's how I learned about restorative justice. And it was this huge light bulb moment for me because reading about it, its principles, its roots, you know, this isn't a new practice, it's something that's been done for a long, long time. I read about it and I was like, this is exactly what I've been asking for. I just didn't have the name for it. And so I started fighting for that outcome. And eventually a prosecutor advocated for me and what I needed. She understood why we should explore this. And I'm sure we'll get into all of that throughout. And because of her, really, I was able to have this process. And what that actually meant was instead of proceeding with criminal trial, my assailant underwent months and months and months of extensive therapy. And then

4:12we eventually met in a circle process. And it blew my mind in terms of how healing it actually was. And how much it met all of my needs for accountability to ask the questions I had and get answers to feel real reassurance that he wouldn't do this again. Like all of those needs were so met. And so that really made me compelled to be loud about this really. And so I went to the media afterwards. I told my story and I got this outpour of messages from survivors around the world who really were all saying, and I still get these messages like all these years later saying, I wish I knew about this. And for so many different reasons, people saying like, this is what I would have pursued. If I had known it existed. And that became the fuel for me to do the work that I'm still doing today, which is advocating, speaking, writing on restorative justice for sexual violence.

5:20You mentioned a few things. You mentioned systematic healing. Can you explain that a little bit for us that might not know? Yeah. So I guess the easiest way to describe it is like, we can't just think our way through trauma. We at some point have to feel our way through trauma. So I can I can have someone say to me all day, you know, you deserve to be angry. And I can say, I can, you know, cognitively go, yeah, you're right. I do deserve that. But it's a different thing for me to like punch a boxing bag until I'm crying, right? So that's that somatic piece is like, we've got to get the body involved in our healing. It doesn't all just live in our head. Well, that's fascinating. I'm going to ask you more about that. But I want to just for the listeners, when I know a lot of in law enforcement, you hear restorative justice. What it triggers to them is echoes of mass incarceration over punishment for minor crimes. It doesn't seem at least in

6:25the literature that, you know, I've been exposed to in my limited view, to have this idea of another way to find accountability and and healing, right? It seems like what restorative justice typically is, it's this idea that we're over penalizing criminals. However, nobody seems to have a problem with over penalizing the murderers and the sexual rapist and whatnot. So tell us a little bit about restorative justice from your framework and how it made you think this is a viable option for you. Yeah. Well, restorative justice is really an umbrella term for any process that prioritizes healing over punishment. And when I say healing, that doesn't just mean, you know, closing your eyes and breathing in peace, like with people picture this very fluffy process. But when I say healing, that includes deep accountability work. It includes doing as

7:29much as we can to write wrongs to meet the needs of victims who are harmed. It means ensuring that everyone walks away as safe for a member of society so that they don't do this again. And there's a lot of reasons why survivors might want this and why they do want this. And that ranges from a, the reality that we don't really have great options presented to us right now outside of this. We have this option like the nurse told me, you can go to court and fight for a prison sentence or you can do nothing at all. Most survivors are choosing nothing at all. So that's that's something we need to acknowledge. And it's not because survivors are lazy or selfish or they don't care. It's because the criminal legal process is so retraumatizing for us

8:31because it also puts us in a position where we might feel less safe because of fear of retaliation if we report and whatnot. And then also it's because of the very high rates of acquittal and stays like withdrawn charges that we see happening. So when those are the only options presented to us, what we see right now is that justice isn't really happening. If we look at the the rates of, you know, if even if someone's definition of justice equals incarceration, which like that's not my definition, but someone listening, that might be theirs, we have to recognize that's not happening currently, less than 1% of sexual assault cases. If we factor in self-surveyed rates of unreported assaults as well, less than 1% of cases can include with convictions. We see those statistics from rain in the US. We see them same thing in Canada with from stats Canada. So we have to acknowledge

9:34nothing's really happening. So hold these people accountable. And then the other thing we need to think about is what do victims of crime want and need? The most commonly reported needs. This is something Danielle Surid outlines in her book until we reckon. The most common needs survivors report are accountability. We want the person who harmed us to take ownership, coherent narrative, meaning we get to ask the questions that we have and get some answers. And then reassurance the person won't do this again. And it becomes a question of which justice option is most compatible with what I actually need. And for a lot of us, we're not finding it in court. And we're not finding it through doing nothing. And therefore, having this third pathway, this option is really, really important.

10:40It's thank you for explaining it. Because in one, in one explanation, it's like you had Windex on my eyes. Because I was very curious like, why would somebody want to talk with someone after they were so invasive and so violent to them? Like the rage that I would think I would feel if this was, you know, someone I cared for. But the way you also explained that the system isn't that good at finding this. The system, if you're taking one percent of the time, this is a bad system. And if someone is going to follow that through, I can't imagine what somebody who was the victim now feels like if there wasn't a quiddle, or if this thing doesn't go somewhere, that has to be devastating. Did you speak with people that had this outcome? Oh, every day, every single day, I hear from survivors every single day who their court cases led to a quiddle. I know survivors who went through five years of court and it only led to a quiddle. I know survivors who their

11:45cases were thrown away. This is happening a lot in Canada. I'm sure it happens in the States as well, whose cases were thrown away because they took too long. And they didn't take too long because of the survivors. They took too long because of staffing delays and things like that in the courts. So every day, I hear from survivors. And I also hear from survivors whose cases did end with incarceration. But what people don't like to think about when we watch the true crime movies and everything, we see that sentencing as a kind of happy ending. Like we did it, we convicted the bad guy. But most of these sentences, at least for sexual assault without a weapon, under five years. And so what happens after that? That's the question that we need to be asking. What happens after that? And there's a lot of survivors who are living in fear every single day waiting for that moment. They're a silent is released. And what's been done in the time they were incarcerated

12:50to make them a safer member of society, usually not much. And there's one thing I want to say as well, because you mentioned it. You were saying, you know, you had that windex over your eyes, why would a survivor want to do this? Don't they have so much rage? And what I'll say is, restorative justice is actually more compatible with our rage. And that's counter to what people think. But it's true, because when we go through court, and I experienced this too, we are expected to show up as what court would see as a credible victim. And that's a very like dispassionate thing. Meaning, and I, someone's a lawyer said this to me. She said, you know, before you're upcoming preliminary trial, you should know you don't want to be too emotional on the stand, because you don't want to seem like you're unstable and, you know, not credible. But you also don't want to be too stoic, because you'll seem like numb and unaffected. So you have

13:52to show up as a very narrow version of a human. And for anyone, well, listen, we're all people who have been hurt in one way or another. We've all experienced harm in our lives. And in some way, we know that in those moments, it's not normal to be not too emotional and not too stoic, right? It's normal to have feelings, to have anger, grief, whatever it might be. And so part of the intention and purpose of the restorative justice process is, how can we make space for someone to show up with their full and honest and authentic emotion? And so I wasn't really able to express my anger or grief until I got to this restorative process. See again, that makes sense to me. And in this short time, in this short time, you've already given me such, you brought my horizon on this. Even when I spoke to people

14:55that I was going to talk with you, and I was just kind of getting ideas, people, the response, and I guess you must get this where they're like, oh hell no, like that person's going to burn in hell and I'm going to like the match, right? Like nobody. But again, now again, I didn't speak to victims. I didn't speak to survivors. And in the law enforcement window, I have one job and that's to pursue justice in the way that I know it, right? I have to execute the laws. I need to get this person and bring them to the courts. And so with that, you speak to survivors. What? In your best estimate with the hundreds, if not thousands of people you speak to, what is their version of justice? What do they look at as justice? I look at the constitution, right? Almost like I, friend. I, but what do you get from that? Great question. And I think it's a question that like for me, part of the reason I found

15:59restorative justice is because I had a friend ask me a very similar question where she said, she said, if anything was possible, what would justice look like to you? And that allowed me to get clear on what I actually wanted versus what society people around me were sort of pressuring and expecting me to do. So the first thing I'll say is that it's going to be different for every survivor. And that's part of the reason that I advocate for this because I don't even believe restorative justice is the one correct option for everyone because I'm very clear that victims are not a monolith. Just like no group is a monolith, right? And so we all have different needs and wants and things that are accessible to us. So therefore, we can't just have a one-size-fits-all approach to justice. And what usually happens when we ask survivors what they need after trauma

17:02and to me that is a definition of justice. What do you need after trauma? Again, we frequently hear accountability, getting answers to the questions we have, you know, things, factors being put in place so that the person is less likely to do this, aka community safety. It's a beautiful thing that the most common thing survivors ask for is that they don't want this person to do this again and not just for ourselves but for other people as well. And that's another thing is that people assume restorative justice is counter to public safety but it's actually linked to public safety because it's approaching justice as secondary prevention, right? We talk about prevention through like consent education and things like that in schools and that's all really important. Secondary prevention is saying, okay, this already happened. How do we prevent it from ever happening

18:06again? And when that becomes the goal, we start to see the approach to justice become very different. Marley, so this is now what I'm thinking, you're giving me all these thoughts. So we think in this system, I've never really thought about it this deeply. My thought now that I'm reflecting on it, the disincentive to do it again is that prison time. My prison was terrible. I hated it. I'm never going to do anything again because I don't want to go back. But then you look at the rates of recidivism. And so the data doesn't support the idea that that's a big enough disincentivizer. What's happening during this restorative justice phase of this that is different than just the absolute hell of being in prison and not wanting to go back there. Yeah, I'm like smiling as you're talking because I just love these conversations and I love these

19:07like light bulb moments because I think we're not really invited or given permission to question these things very often. And it can even be scary to question these things because then it might uproot our whole belief system or it's easier to be like, here are the good guys and here are the bad guys. And if we put away the bad guys will all be safe. Like that's a nice, tidy, neat image of the world. But it's as you're pointing out, it's not reflective of what's actually happening. So I'll quote Danielle Sarita again because she does amazing work. She's the founder of an organization called Common Justice. And she points out that the four core drivers of violence. So what makes someone very likely to be violent? Those four factors are isolation, exposure to violence, shame, and unmet economic needs. Those are four things that a person is pretty much guaranteed

20:10to experience if they go to prison. So that means we're putting people in the exact circumstances that are almost guaranteed to make them violent again in the in the name of public safety. And it's like, if we do the math on that for a second, it doesn't add up, right? Doesn't correct. Yeah, whereas what makes someone more safe. Now we're talking about sexual violence right now. And that's such an extreme example of harm. And I think it can make it difficult for people to like reckon with these things when we start with sexual violence. So let's like reel it back a bit and think of like, you know, a kid in a classroom who throws an object at another kid. We then ask ourselves, what's going to make this kid a more safe member of the classroom? And it's usually a 10 minute time out isn't going to do it. We usually have to come in with some therapeutic interventions talk to them. Why did you do that education?

21:15You know, education, how do you think that action impacted them? We also get curious. I wonder what's going on for this kid at home that's making them normalize this behavior, right? Are they seeing violence at home that makes them think this is okay? So with kids, we can usually get it pretty fast. We're like, yeah, that if I if I was a parent, that's how I would parent my kid. I wouldn't just say 10 minute time out. I think from here on out, you'll be a perfect angel, right? We're like, no, you got to do a little more than that. So really is the same thing with adults. It's like people need education. They need, they need to unlearn a lot of things they've been taught. A concrete example of that with Maya Salant is like, I said, he went through therapy for about seven months. And in that time, he's learning about emotional literacy. When he gets really angry, what are healthy outlets he can have so that he's not blowing up on someone else, right? Things

22:18like that. He's redefining masculinity. He's realizing he's been taught about a version of masculinity that relies on toughness and emotional suppression and never asking for help and seeing women in a certain way, maybe being high-fived by his friends in the locker room for getting a chick at the bar, right? So these things, he kind of has to do a big unlearning process. So that's that education piece. And you just don't you just don't necessarily get that in a in a short prison sentence. And you also need an environment where you're able to do that work, where you're not just living in survival life. I'm living in constant survival mode. I don't have space for that education, reflection, accountability, and accountability is not just I admit I did something. That's the start of it. But then it's reflecting on the harm you caused, understanding that impact

23:23your actions had understanding the root causes of why you did that, doing deep work to address that behavior. So you won't do it again, taking actionable steps to make reparations or write your wrongs. Like there's a lot to it that a timeout doesn't necessarily cover. Yeah. Marley two things. And I have two competing thoughts that I want to get out. The first one, so I'm going to make this a two-part question just so I don't forget to ask you, what are the biggest misconceptions we have about survivors of sexual violence? I just, I want to get that out there because clearly I don't know enough about this. And I'm guessing either do my officers. Number two, what about the individual who is for lack of a better word? They weren't taught coping mechanisms. Their life has been so traumatic that they are this way. They don't want to do therapy. They don't care. Like, you know, take your therapy. And I don't care

24:25that I hurt you. Do are there suspects? Are there people that are just inherently bad? Like, I don't want this. Like I don't care. And what do you do with that person? Do you let them go to jail? So two of those first thing. Two big questions. Yeah. So feel free. Take your time with those. There's a big one. Yeah. Well, the first thing I think about survivors is, I think it's just like, I think it's really that survivors are all different. Like, I think we get clumped into a big group. And anytime we do this with any group, it's not helpful. You know, you mentioned that with with police, people saying, you know, all police are, I'm anti-all people, people saying things like that or people saying, you know, all men are bad. Like, anytime we clump and generalize about an entire group, we instantly dehumanize the people

25:28in that group. And we fail to actually see them. Right. If I get on this call, assuming I already know everything about you, then I'm not actually seeing or hearing you. Right. And nobody likes that feeling. So, you know, so with survivors, we're not a monolith. And I think people have really great intentions sometimes. They want to like hear from survivors about what we want. But what voice are you hearing? Because I can't speak for all survivors. Just as another survivor can't speak for for me, right. So, like, there are going to be survivors out there who do want incarceration. And there are, I can't really say, but I've probably connected with hundreds of thousands on the internet alone of survivors who do really, really want something that's actually

26:30going to be focused on healing. It's going to be more compatible with the person taking accountability. And focused on safety, getting some answers to the questions that they have. So, I think it's just like, that's why there's no one size fits all to justice. And we need to get really curious about what survivors need rather than assuming because the court process is an adversarial one. Meaning the quote, quote, experts turn towards survivors and say, I know what you need. This is what you're supposed to do. You got to do XYZ. And that's going to give you justice. Rather than honoring lived experience, turning towards survivors, actually asking us what we need, what would be meaningful to us in terms of healing justice safety. And then really caring about that. So, that's the survivor piece. And then this other question, that is a big question, right.

27:34It kind of challenges our whole world view. Like, so I definitely won't fully unpack it. But what I like to say and what I truly believe is that transformation is the rule, staying the same is the exception. And our culture teaches us a flipped version of that. Our culture teaches us that you're delusional if you think people change. And it's a miracle if they do. But I always, whenever I do talks and whatnot, I ask people, you know, has anyone in this room ever changed? And obviously, everyone laughs in the whole room raises their hand. Like, all of us experience change. So, yes, it is true that there is a small number of people, of rapists who will not change. That's true. But that number is a lot smaller than what we've been led to believe. And research shows this as well. There's a great book from Chanel Contos called

28:38Consent Lead Bear. And it talks about how forensics psychologists have identified different subgroups of rapists. And the subgroup that is, you know, psychopath, sadist is a lot smaller than the group that's called entitled opportunists. And entitled opportunists are the people that we go, oh, but he's a good guy. He's my neighbor. He's, you know, the star of the sports team. He's a great student. What do you mean he's a good guy? He would never do that. But as we really, really get honest about the sexual violence conversation, we see that like, it's not just bad guy monsters in a bush jumping out and doing this. It's often people's brothers, their neighbors, their fathers, their sons, right? And we have to, that's hard to grapple with. So what I believe is that most people change when they are given their resources and support to do so. So I don't believe

29:46most people change if we just keep traumatizing and shaming them. But I do believe that a lot of people start to change once they're given that support, that call, that call in, that accountability, that education, that person who's really there to hold them accountable to being a better version of themselves. Then we start to see some shifts happening. And the last thing I'll say on this big tangent about that is we have to recognize that we have not made it safe for people to take accountability because we say, and this is something my assailant talked about when we met in circle, the second he met the defense lawyer, and right, right away they said, you know, you got to get a lawyer. The defense lawyer said, I don't want to hear what your version of events, you know, don't tell me anything from here on out like, this is what happened. And that makes it very

30:48hard to take accountability. And obviously the defense lawyer is not going to go, you know, you should, you should take ownership and reflect on what you said wrong, right? Because the risk of doing so is incarceration. It's less access to employment and housing. It's being socially shunned and labeled bad forever. Like when someone makes the consequences of taking accountability that extreme is very unlikely that people are going to take it. So what can we do to create the conditions to make taking accountability and transforming more safe and accessible? Marley, you're striking me as somebody who is incredibly compassionate. And I'm, I'm almost, it's, it's, it's inspiring. But I just wonder like where, where does this come from? Why do you have such trust in the human species? Why do you have such an optimistic view that

31:54everybody with the right resources can be better? It is the antithesis of law enforcement cynicism. And I think it's just overexposure to bad people or at least bad actions committed by people. But you are incredibly compassionate and very kind. It's, it comes through in the words you use and their tone. Why, why, why do you have this? Is this how you are or did you come to this realization? I think it's a combination of things. Thank you for saying that. I think it is a combination of things. So one, I think before I answer that, I think everything I'm saying is actually very pragmatic because it's like, what is our goal? Is our goal to put someone in a timeout for a year or two? Or is our goal to lessen rates of sexual violence, to support survivors healing, to prevent future harm, to address root causes of rape? Like, so I, that's the first thing

33:01I'll say is like, you can be a cynic and before this. So I just want to say that for anyone who's listening being like, I, because I think people assume restorative justice is very like saintly and we're all forgiving one another and we're singing kumbaya and it's like, that's not what it is. So I know I'm like this and you can be a cynic and you can rage and you can still be for restorative justice because it's a very pragmatic thing, right? And that being said, I do think I'm just like this. I do think who knows, you know, parent, like maybe it's my parents that I had or like my mom is very similar. I would say, I think that my mom really questioned a punitive parenting approach because the conversation we're having here can be applied to anything. Punitive is an approach that relies on punishment, whether that's timeouts, detention, suspension,

34:03incarceration, cancel culture, and then restorative is anything that's therapeutic interventions, education, dialogue, stuff like that. So I think my mom was very much of the mindset of like, if I don't want you to hit, I'm not going to teach you not to hit by hitting you. I'm going to talk to you about why you shouldn't do that and what impact it has on someone. So I think that's a big piece. And then I also know that for me, after this rape, I was so like, I felt like my whole world view shattered. And I was so devastated by this reality where we dehumanize each other like this, where we like have this much hate and this lack of care in our world. Like I was so devastated by that. And it got me to a place where I was thinking about

35:07taking my life. And I remember really thinking like, I don't want to live in this version of the world where we dehumanize each other this much. So when I did decide to live and stay, I became very committed to ensuring that nothing I do perpetuates dehumanization or escalates violence or is apathetic. Like I don't want to, I think there's enough apathy and violence in the world. And I don't want to add to that pot. So a big part of my own healing became like refusing dehumanization. And this idea that having my assailant go to prison for a few years, be dehumanized, be further traumatized, have less

36:09access to housing employment and everything. I just don't, I don't want to be a part of that cycle. And then again, there's this pragmatic piece of, and I really don't believe that those conditions are going to make him kinder to women, more respectful, a better future parent, maybe a safer member of society. So it's that balance of like my own compassionate values and that sort of pragmatic, like what is the goal here? Marley, on behalf of humanity, thank you for staying as you put it because you're blazing a trail in, you really are, you're a thought leader in this space. Nobody's that I know about you, you mentioned a few authors. So there's some people here who are sure that you're, you're, you know, in yours. But this is completely different. Are you familiar with the podcast? It was on this American life and it was called The Anatomy of Rape. Have you heard that? No, I know this American life, but I haven't heard that one.

37:11If I may. So I use this podcast with my young officers because what it does is it takes a true story of a young lady who was raped. The rapist came into her house. He tied her up. It was, it was a bad situation. But because of how she reacted, the police department didn't take it seriously. Right. Because she was very flat and at certain points, she was laughing. And at certain points, she was coping the only way an 18 year old knew what to do. She was an orphan. She was on her own for the first time. And so you have this situation where she actually gets filed on for filing a false police report. And then the story goes on how this rapist raped somebody in another county four years later. And they find her ID, which he said he took. So I know who you are and I can always find you. Four years later, another county, they find her ID on a rapist. She's exonerated of all this. But I send this to cops because I say all victims are not going to act the

38:16same. A lot of them are going to be sad. They're going to be crying and they're going to be in physical abuse. Some of them will not act like this and don't think for a second that you know how they are. But now you're giving me a completely broader perspective on this. So with that, what is it that the public doesn't understand about trauma and how people who are victims of trauma cope with this? Like we instinctively think you're going to be mad and you're going to want to kill someone. Like that's a very accepted answer. What don't we understand psychologically, cognitively, neurologically? What is your research showed you on this or in even your own lived experience? Yeah. Well, first I'll say that none of the ideas I'm saying are new. Like restorative justice has been a movement and approach since way longer than I've been alive. And since way

39:20longer than the court system has been alive too. You know, like prior to. Yeah, that's what a lot of people don't realize like prior to the British North America Act, which came with colonization. That's really when the courts, as we know it today, became the norm of how we respond to justice. But before that, every community had their own way of responding to violence and harm and abuse in their communities. So then we start to see there was a lot of restorative justice approaches happening around the world like in indigenous communities in New Zealand and Maori communities in Africa through like peace building circles and men and night communities. There's a really, really rich history. So I just want to say that to make it so clear that by no means am I the start of this, you know, I'm one drop in a very, very old ocean. And what people don't understand

40:22about trauma, I mean, I hear the example you gave all the time, like people come forward and they say that they were assaulted and then the response is like, you know, I want to kill the guy, whether they're saying that or their loved ones are saying that. And usually, I guess again, like my answer is just that like every survivor is so different. And we think about like fight, flight response, there's been a lot of research on that. Freeze response, thankfully, people are learning more about that fun and response. People are just starting to talk about that's when we appease in order to, we basically take on a persona that we feel is going to keep us safe in that moment. So when we think about all these things and like different, everyone has a different nervous system

41:25and different circumstances in our lives and things like this that make us respond differently. And for some reason, and I think it's because it's the loudest, quite literally, if we just put four people in a room and each of them responds with those different trauma responses, the fight response is going to be the loudest and like just volume wise and comment section wise. So we often don't hear those other responses or we assume they're fine because we're like, well, they were just sitting quietly or they the other one left the room or the other one said they were having a good time. And so it's easy to overlook these other responses and to only validate that one. And in a culture that teaches us that statements like, man up, don't cry, be tough, don't let them see your weakness, don't let them see you cry. We start to actually really praise the fight response

42:26and to say that's the only valid one. That's why a lot of survivors have shame around. You know, I didn't fight back. We have a lot of blame and shame around that because fight response is the one we praise and the one we say is normal and all the other ones we say, something's wrong with you. You know, if you walked away, if you froze, if you found something's wrong with you. So we sort of invalidate everything other than that I'm going to kill the guy response. And then we have a culture that really glamorizes violence as well. So many of our superheroes and, you know, movies and things we see bombs and guns and like, you know. So it just, it's all we really are willing to validate. But when we actually listen to survivors, you know, it's so many of the ones who reach out to me say, and I dealt with this too, is I thought something was wrong with me because I didn't want to just kill the guy. And I think we all have

43:30to do a lot better at showing survivors care and not speaking louder than us. You know, like, if if I'm screaming, I'm going to kill your abuse or rather than saying, oh my gosh, you were abused. What do you need right now? You know, like how are you? What can I do for you right now? And that's a very different thing. And then I know I'm on such a tangent. But the last thing I'll say with that is when we respond that way, we often de-center the person harmed. And you heard it a bit in the example I just gave. We all turn toward the abuser and we go, how can we punish them? How can we punish them? And we run after them with pitchforks, right? But we leave the survivor standing there alone, wounded, hurt. And so that's often what our system asks us to do. It's sole focus there, deal with the survivor later. But when we think about the people we love,

44:35we wouldn't do that, right? We would we would turn toward our friend who was just pushed down and go, oh my gosh, what are you okay? What do you need? Right? So, yeah, yeah. Marley, so this is, have you, I'm thinking of my friends who have daughters. Right, right? And I'm thinking of them if their daughter was hurt like this. And I would say, hang on now. Let's see what the daughter wants. And I could hear them saying, I don't care. I'm going to kill him. And it doesn't mean they don't care about their daughter or they don't care about the victim. But in that moment, you're right. We are going to walk away because we're going to make us the center of this because we feel like we need to do something. You're right, the fight response gets validation. The others freeze a piece, right? And flight, they're all valid responses. You've talked about kind of that mentality of, you know, fighting and all that,

45:35that's every police officer roll call room. Like, this is why we're overrepresented suicide. We can't talk about this. We can't cry. We can't show emotion. We we we and then I think sometimes we take it out on the abusers. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's really painful for any human to be told, like, I think I think we again, we lose it with adults. But let's think of a little kid for any little kid to be told, you're not allowed to cry. You're not allowed to say you're sad. You scrape your knee and fall on the ground. You puff up your chest and you say, oh, I'm fine. Like, we can see how that's painful for a little kid. But once they become adults, we see it. We're like, good for you. Be brave. Be tough. Be strong. Be, you know, that bravado. So it kind of to me ties back to that conversation around redefining masculinity. And I don't think

46:38masculinity is inherently bad. I don't think that that's a thing. I think the way we approach masculinity currently in society is often really harmful for everyone, including men. That expectation of you're not allowed to cry. Police officers are seeing and navigating horrible trauma and abuse and and seeing like such, you know, non typical, very novel images. Every single day and that in arguably affects any human and to stand and pretend you're fine requires you. Here's our full circle to that somatics piece. It requires you to swallow down everything you're feeling. And that's that's really bad for the body. Like that's really bad

47:40in terms of stress, in terms of like, inhibiting your own ability to process trauma and pain in life. Because the way emotions work, it's like we're nature, right? Like, same as any plant, we're a species. The way emotions work is that we're meant to go all the way through them beginning to end. And when we do that without intervening, suppressing, hiding, we actually go through that emotion quite quickly. But when we start to go through that emotion, imagine we're like going through a tunnel. And then we say, oh, don't cry right now. My buddies will make fun of me or whatever it might be. Don't cry right now. You're supposed to be a professional or show them your tough, show them you're strong. We actually block ourselves from processing. We get stuck in that tunnel. And that's when you hear statements like the body keeps the score trauma stuck in the body because then you're just holding it all in. And then we talk

48:43about that's going to blow up in some way. It's either going to blow up through harm toward yourself. Like you said, suicide rates are very high or it's going to blow up violence toward others. You know, the man who never shows his weakness and then beats his wife, right? So it's like we all actually talk about violence prevention. Sounds very fluffy. But again, it's pragmatic feeling our feelings. Learning emotional literacy is one of the best ways we can actually prevent violence. Marley, help me square this or maybe see this if I give you a different perspective. You're really a kind soul. And if I'm a police officer who's coming to a scene because you're being attacked and you're being attacked in some room and I got to get through that door. Okay, I'm going to be very violent to get through that door and then I'm going to see

49:43somebody hurting you as an officer. Like my thoughts are not going to be all right, all right, let's break this up. You obviously don't have good coping mechanisms like we and I think I speak for a lot of cops are going to grab this person and there's going to be violence to get them off of you. Right. Right. How do you like that has to there's a part of there's a part of society that needs that they need somebody's just like that that police officer in New York who's jumping over the fence that's kind of going viral. He's chasing a guy with a bomb in his hand so that he could jump on him. And like this is there there's a segment of people like myself and my colleagues who are willing to do that, you know, do violence on behalf of others. Now, maybe I'm glamorizing that and I don't mean to. But how would like someone's going to be violent to get that person off? You're I don't want to see you're okay with it, but you understand how hard that would be that for a cop to. Okay, please. Like what does that make you think what I say all that? Mm-hmm. So I'm this this is not a podcast episode about the movement of nonviolence.

50:52But what's interesting is that there's a really big misperception around nonviolence that people think it's non-hyphen violence, meaning no violence ever. Nonviolence is actually not spelled with a hyphen, meaning it's its own word. And it's its own word because it's not as you would intuitively think. It's not opposed to violence always. What the nonviolence movements actually call for? And I think of a great book by Kazoo Haga called Healing Resistance. And he talks about minimal use of force. So the the minimal use of force required to keep someone safe is what the nonviolence movement would justify. So the minimal use of force is the goal is to get the person attacking the woman off of the woman. And that's it. We don't need to spend the next 10

51:55minutes beating him up until he's bloody and on the ground. We've already gotten them off the woman. So that's what I would agree with as well. And that's a bit of a rabbit hole. We don't need to get into all of that. I just think it's an interesting point and a and a thing that people assume. But that's what I would say as well is like the minimal use of force required. Now we have to recognize and this is where awareness of what of like emotional literacy, awareness of your own like for any officer, any person. If you enter your own fight response because of past experience you've had, maybe you can't stop yourself in that moment. If you're adrenaline pumping, maybe you can't stop yourself in that moment. So that's self-awareness work that every single person has to do in order to say to really recognize that moment where the violence has now stopped.

52:55I got the man off the woman. That violence has stopped. Therefore it stops here. And that takes some self-work. That takes some discipline and training. Yes, immensely. It's great nuance of the word. I love how you did that. So we talk so much in policing about the constitution, you know, the idea of pursuing justice. And our thought is we're going to bring you to the courts. That is how I'm going to get you justice. I'm going to grab this person and I'm going to bring him to the courts. And now it seems like there's a better way perhaps because just getting him to the courts does not mean justice, but myself included. I will think I did something for you on your behalf. Like I will feel good about it. But in hindsight, I might not have done much for the victim. How do I get the victim more involved in policing so that we understand this? Like I need, we talk so much about suspects.

54:00How do where do we even start to teach this? Great question. Well, for anyone who's listening to this, I would really see this as a jumping off point. So, you know, if this is striking according with you in any way, which I hope it is, ideally it's a jumping off point to learn a lot more about restorative justice because we can't, you know, pretend to be experts after listening to one episode. So in my view, like every corrections officer needs training on restorative justice on understanding the pathways to justice that are available. So what I would say is that one of the most meaningful things we can give survivors after we have just felt violated, powerless, like our voice doesn't matter, is to really respect our consent. And that means that you're turning towards survivors and you're checking in.

55:01And even things as simple as they're maybe they're getting in the police car with you, which seat are you most comfortable sitting in? Okay, go ahead and go ahead and sit there. It's a little thing. It's a little thing, but it's a way of saying your consent and your sense of safety matters right now. And if we can implement that at every step. So rather than I know what's best for you, I'm going to bring this to the courts, turning towards them. Wow, you're you're in a lot of pain right now. What do you need? What would be meaningful for you? Now, what we need to recognize is that there's a huge, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation, a huge lack of awareness around restorative justice. So if a police officer says, would you like a restorative justice process? The victim is probably going to go, I don't know what you're talking about, like what? So what can then become really helpful is to get curious about what they actually need? What are their imminent

56:05needs? And maybe they say, you know, I need, I just want the person to admit what they did, or I just want my kids to be safe, or I just want to ask him why he did this, or I just want him to get help. So he doesn't do this again. If we listen then to those needs, that's going to indicate what pathway is going to be most compatible with those needs. But even just giving the survivors the awareness of just so you know, you have more options than court or nothing at all. That alone, let me be dramatic here, that would change the world. If police officers, sexual assault nurses, if people started saying, just so you know, you have more options than court or nothing at all. Just that huge, that would be a huge difference. And then with time they can

57:09start learning about restorative justice, learning about different options, and then deciding for themselves, ideally, which one of these is actually going to be most meaningful to me. Okay, two things now that are coming to my head. The first one is how I was trained to speak to victims. And I was trained very specifically, be compassionate, make sure, you know, you sit down, I'm at their level, give them power. What do you want to do? Like you said, where do you want to sit in the car? So make sure they have a sense of control because that was taken, right? This is what I was taught. And the other thing was you've got to get them to the hospital for their start kit and all that. And if they don't, a lot of them want to go shower, they want to go clean. And it was my job to discourage them. And now I almost feel bad, but I'm like, let me explain why because I want to catch this person. I don't want them to do it to other people. I used all these standard ideas. What can we tell our police officers? Like you said, what are some of these

58:11other things? Someone may have some of me listen to this and have to do an interview the day they listen to this. What are some things they can do? Not also understanding that the officer won't get the option of how justice is administered. All we can do is bring them to the courts. So maybe I got to teach the prosecutors and law schools about restorative justice because the state doesn't give me that power to do other things. And that'll be the second part of the question. But go with that one first and then I'll follow up. So you said, you know, getting the prosecutors, getting them trained, I would also say getting the sexual assault nurses trained, getting rape crisis centers trained because most of them are not aware of this still. I've done sexual assault nurse trainings. I've done reprisals often. The most common thing I still hear is I didn't know this existed. I hear it from corrections all the time. I imagine that depending on your role,

59:15sometimes you do have an option. For example, I connected with a corrections officer who worked in a sex crimes unit and he had a dispatch team. And once he heard about restorative justice, he said, we're going to make sure we inform the people who call of restorative justice options. Just let them know they exist. Encourage them to look up for restorative justice organizations in their area, things like that. So there's there's little shifts in awareness that can happen there. But again, the biggest thing I'll say is consent every step of the way. That's great to check in and make sure the person feels safe about where they're sitting in the car. But then if moments later, we go, doesn't matter what you need right now, the system needs you to do this and you've got a second of them. Do it. Well, then why did they write to consent end at the end of the car ride? So as much as possible, we want to give survivors a right to consent. And that means when survivors

1:00:17are saying, and this I hear all the time, and I experience this too, when survivors are going through the court system, and we say, this is destroying me. There is an absolute responsibility for the judicial people involved at that time to go, there are some other options here. Rather than to go, well, we need you to keep to suck it up and get through this so that we can get a version of justice that we've defined for you. That's so inhumane, right? It's so inhumane. And I just want to say too that none of this is to like we're all products of our environment. And so it's easy, like you said, to be like, oh, now I feel really bad. And I think that's that's okay because it's like, okay, you know, that guilt and whatever is giving you information about what you can do differently. But we're all products of our environment and we don't know what we don't know.

1:01:20So maybe now, after listening to this episode, you know something, you didn't know before, and you can give yourself some grace and go forth and act differently, right? Hunter prison. Marley, because time is short, if someone's listening, and they've experienced trauma that we're talking about, and they've never told anybody, they're carrying this with them, what would you say to them? I think I always start with just the, I think again, like different words mean different things to different people. But just starting with like, I'm so sorry, this happened to you, and you didn't deserve it. And it's not your fault. And I always say to people, you deserve a version of healing and justice that's actually meaningful to you. And if we want to go a step further, we can say, you know, is there anything that would be something I like to say, is there anything

1:02:24that would make you feel 1% more supported right now? Because often without the 1%, it's like things are quite daunting. If you're in a full trauma state and someone says, what would make you feel safe right now? You're like nothing. But if someone goes, what would make you feel 1% more safe right now? They're like, you know, a blanket, a glass of water for you to call my friend and tell her this at whatever it is, right? So I think that that 1% rule is very helpful. I love it. Marley, tell everybody where they could find you, tell them what you have coming up, talk about you a little bit. Because I know they're going to be interested, please. Yeah. Well, this is my full-time work is never shutting up about this. So, you know, I do talks and trainings around the world. And I really, really love doing this work. Whether you're prosecutor, corrections, a survivor, a student, an educator, a therapist, like whatever your role is, I'd be honored to collaborate. So definitely, you can go to my website, marleylist.com, M-A-R-L-E-E-L-I-S-S.

1:03:31And you'll see lots of information on my programming. You'll also find a resource guide there that will give you organizations, podcasts, books, documentaries on restorative justice. So that's a really great place to start for anyone who wants to learn more about this or knows a survivor who might benefit. My social media is the same, MarleyLis. And I do post about these things every day. I get creative about how I do that. So check that out. And that's also where I'll share updates on the documentary that we made and the book that I have coming out next year. And you can also find information on the global coalition that I launched called survivors for, like for the number, justice reform. And that's a global coalition of survivors advocating for restorative and transformative justice. Thank you so much. Marley, I hope I could have you back on

1:04:35because I think I'm going to schedule you for a little bit deeper and maybe we can even get a little deeper into this. I'm sure I'm going to have questions that people are going to ask me. So maybe we could do a part two where it's just you educating. And of course, if there's a place that I could bring you in to some of these departments to talk to our investigators, our city attorneys, I'm going to figure that out and bring you in. Yeah, definitely down for the talks, the trainings. We can connect about about another podcast, but definitely what would love to do the training piece because it's just so needed. And there's something really powerful that happens when we're actually in person in a room together and people feel safe to share like specific examples and things like that as well. Absolutely. Marley, the work you're doing is incredible. It's absolutely. The more I learned about you, the more I looked at your stuff, it's truly amazing. You're a wonderful human and you're doing amazing stuff. Thank you for coming on the show.

1:05:36Thank you for sharing your experience and thank you for all the people that you're trying to help out there. Yeah, thank you so much for having me and thank you everyone for listening. I know these can be challenging conversations, but I think that if they plan to seed for us to question or get curious about some things or learn more about some things, then that is an amazing goal to reach. So thank you so much, everyone. Absolutely. Marley lists everybody. Thank you so much. I would just like to take a second to thank you all the listeners for keeping this going. We've surpassed 50 episodes and we're just going to keep pushing along. If you have ideas for people that you want to have on the show or people that you want to hear, please send them my way. One of the listeners actually recommended Marley to come on the show. So that's how we got her. And I just want to take a moment to thank Marley. I want to thank her for her courage. I want to thank her for the work she's doing to help survivors reclaiming their voice, finding a space for healing for themselves. That looks very different than what I think society looks at as accountability

1:06:41and punishment. Conversations like this with Marley, they matter. So to everyone listening today, if the discussion resonated with you or if you know someone that is suffering through this, there's resources for you. I know Marley is available. Reach out to me. Reach out to Marley. Reach out to your law enforcement agency. And there's always help for you. And I just want to know that your story matters, your experience matters. And justice is what you think it is. It doesn't matter what this system tells you. It's what you believe justice is. So hold that truth. Thank you, Marley, for sharing that. And for giving all of us the courage to speak what's out there. And with that, I would like to leave with just two quotes. Justice begins the moment a survivor realizes that what happened to them actually matters. And the bravest thing a survivor can do is speak up. And the bravest thing society can do is just listen to what they're saying.

1:07:48Thank you, everybody. We'll see you on the next episode.