When Customers Don't Tell the Truth | Classics with Kathryn McGarvey

0:00It's time now for the Biz Book broadcast with Liz Scully of Read Think Central. Do you like reading? Do you run a business? Wondering what to read next? Then this is the show for you. Liz is a business strategist and coaches businesses so that they grow while protecting their owner's time, resilience, so they don't burn out. Books can be a real key to changing things. Liz reads a couple of books a day to sift out the dust and is a self-proclaimed bookter. It show gives you one big idea for you plus your business to chew on to you read the book. Join us now and see what Liz is recommending this week. Hello and welcome to the Biz Book broadcast. If you've got a business and you love books and foolishness, then you are in exactly the right place. I'm Liz Scully, I am a business strategist at a total book nerd.

1:00And today we have the lovely Catherine McGarvey back in the studio again. Say hello Catherine. Oh, delightful. Now what you're listening to is a classics episode. This is where we take a book that very, very definitely is not a business book and for no good reason at all, refer to it as though it is. And it is fascinating some of the insights we get from this. These are my absolute fav episodes. Catherine has been on quite a few times and has done quite a few classics episodes. So do make sure you go and look at them and just check the classics section out to generally. There's been some absolute corkers. Now before we dig into today's book, which I think of as a classic, but you may not know, let me give you a proper introduction to our Catherine McGarvey. She is founder of Nozi HQ. She is a client researcher. We'll come back to exactly what that means. She is an accomplished marketer.

2:00She knows of which she speaks. She is a proud New Zealander and up early to speak to us. And I likewise, I'm up late to speak to her. So see how we sacrifice for you, lovely listener. She is a very good friend, a mastermind alarm. And as mentioned, a biz book regular. She is the perfect person to discuss today's book, which is Adrian Simcox does not have a horse. It's by Marcy Campbell. And it's with lovely illustrations by Karina Luquian. Now, if you've never heard of it, that's okay. It only came out in 2018. And I have been utterly charmed by this book. It would turn out to be the only 50% of the people on this conversation have been charmed by this book. But we'll come back to that. Now, if you're new to it, here is the plot. A little boy called Adrian Simcox tells everyone at school he has a beautiful, beautiful, lovely horse. Chloe, who goes to the same school, doesn't believe him.

3:03And indeed, his insistence that he has a horse, annoys her. Well, I would say maybe a bit younger. He tells lots of people he has this horse. He tells them the kids in the school yard, kids in classes, at lunch, at the bus stop. And Chloe gets more and more irked by him. As Adrian obviously is not in a sort of horse-owning bracket of the school. He gets free school lunches. He comes from quite a small house. And Chloe is continually irked by this continual lying from Adrian. And she even goes to far. This is really quite nasty. She calls him at home to tell him that he is lying and he does not have a horse. She complains to her mother. Her mother is having none of it. And indeed, her mom just sort of shrugs it off. Now, later we discover that her mom has arranged a play date with Adrian's grandfather,

4:04because she knows him from some parents' event. And she allows Chloe to sort of understand through her own experience. They walk to his house. It is indeed teeny tiny and much smaller than their house. So there's a feeling of beginning to understand that maybe she has quite a lot of privilege in her life. And she realizes that he is raised by his granddad, not and has no parents. And as they begin to talk about this, she realizes between Adrian and herself that the thing that Adrian has going for himself is this wonderful imagination and they become. And this imagination is sort of powerful and protects him. It's really, I find it very charming. And right at the end, Chloe learns it's better to be kind than to be right. And for me, that one of the most charming parts about this book is we've had these lovely illustrations of the grasses and the things in Adrian's granddad's garden. And there is a hint that those grasses form a kind of horse shape on the last couple of pages.

5:07I loved it. I loved it. Now, if you can see here in the studio, Catherine is shaking her head because she did not love this book. Now, before I get into that and I cannot wait for our purposes today, what we are talking about is that really listening to what's actually being said rather than the surface is vitally important. Because most listening is cursory at best, much like Chloe's listening, whereas you really need to get deep and to understand your people that you're talking to and actually really understand how they feel emotionally about that. That's what we're going to talk about. But first, let's lance this boil of I do not like the book that I see on our Catherine's face. So what did you think of the book, my lovely friend? I did not like it. And that's it. Well, if your dear reader hasn't read the book, you've made it sound lovely and at the risk of boring them. My version of this story is there is a bratty little girl who insists that she is right

6:14and this boy is lying. And instead of getting over it, she digs herself deeper and deeper and deeper until her mother has to take measures to rectify and show her the era of her ways. Whereupon, she very, very quickly decides that she was wrong and he's calling, he's got a great imagination and isn't that lovely. And it just seems to me like she's a brat and the lesson she learned was just a little bit too fast and too convenient and even though I know it's a children's book, I don't think people behave like that. Is this for a mother of teenage girls? Is this the crux of the problem here? No, I think I would dislike it even if I didn't have children. I just think she's a brat and people don't change their minds that fast. And don't see the era of their ways that fast and actually as the mother of teenagers

7:16they certainly don't see the era of their ways if it's their mother that's showing the era to them. Well, I tell you one of the things I liked about it was that the mother doesn't just say have a bit of compassion Chloe, pull yourself together, she goes and shows her. And I guess maybe for me it's because when I was a teenager, when I was 12 I went to Pakistan and I realised, oh, my life is very cushy. And like simple things like I got an education despite being a girl and I have clean running water at home and I can drink the stuff coming out of the tap. So I had that kind of rude awakening on a really basic level. Maybe that makes people so susceptible to it or maybe it is simply that the character development is slender towards the end of the book. It is only a picture book after all. Yes, perhaps I'm taking a little bit too seriously. But I'll take your Pakistan and raise you Nauru Island where I lived till I was 8. So I don't think it's exposure to poverty that our differences come.

8:19Okay, okay, anyway, if we just take this book as a jumping off point, that's all it is. I liked it. And you, Lister, you should make your own mind up. That's the key here. I was so charmed by this. I like the illustrations as well. So we will be back to dissect the book, whether it's good or not, but going to dissect it after these messages. Last week, Brandon met a girl on a dating app. One day after work, he finally found the courage to ask her out. No answer. He started to panic. Was he being too pushy? Maybe it was too... Hey, sorry I didn't respond. I was driving. I would love to go on a date. How does tonight sound? Brandon tried to play it cool, but inside he knew a girl so smart, so responsible. She must be a keeper. And you're back with the Biz Book broadcast. I'm Liz Scully. I'm speaking to the skeptical Catherine McGarvey. And we are discussing the charming book.

9:20Adrian Simpox does not have a horse. I'm going to hold on to that charm if it kills me. So first of all, we have a sort of a surface analysis by Chloe. Whether or not she has her come to Jesus moment later, she is just looking at the fact that I've got the fact I know he's wrong. And she clings to that. She thinks she knows the big picture. Now for the purposes of our relation to businesses, this is like I've got my demographics. I've looked at the stat and not knowing any of the psychographics behind it. Or not even, it's not even just psychographics. It's that deep emotional understanding. 100% it's like you can have and companies often do these days with all the tools we have available to us. You can have all the data in the world. You can have graphs. You can have numbers, but it doesn't help you understand the people that lie underneath that data.

10:22And if you don't understand the people, then you're not maximizing your chance of marketing to them in an effective way to really understand what motivates them, what drives them, their pains, their sorrows, the things that are going to make them take action and buy your product or use your service or sign up for your subscription. Yes. And I realize that we should probably explain to our listener exactly what it is you do because this is so relevant to this really listening to people. Thank you. I am a customer researcher and I do qualitative research, which means that I sit down with my clients, customers, and I interview them one on one. And it starts off and it's just surface level, much like our friend Chloe here or not my friend anyway. It starts off surface level and then I build a connection, build a rapport and dig down deeper to actually uncover all those things we were just talking about, their motivations, their emotional drivers, and even the language that they use, how do they talk about their pains so that my clients can use that in their copy.

11:33So that's what I do in a nutshell. Exactly. And so it's really relevant to the not listening to Adrian poor old Adrian or old Adrian. So I think also using it in a copy. That's what I was telling my clients is that if clients are saying something consistent to you, get it in the sales page. If that's one of the benefits that they find you don't have to be a big company to use this research, but when you have that information. Even speaking to two people is better than speaking to one person potentially is better than nobody, even then you might be slightly skewed by your data, but you can at least be certain that 100% of the people you've spoken to have said the thing, whatever the thing is. Okay, so we know we know we need to go deeper, we know we need to listen to the emotional side of things. But however, because Adrian is saying something that just isn't true, he does not have a horse. And he is saying it often clearly into many, many people. And how do we listen past that very surface side because we need to get to that emotional stuff.

12:40This is exactly what you do. How do you do it? How do you get there? Does Adrian not have a horse? Definitely, I know he does. I know he doesn't book. Yes, unfortunately I did. But in his head, he has a horse. And if we are trying to understand what's going on in Adrian's head, then to him he does. And Chloe at the end, the turn coat, praises his imagination and how wonderful it is. Well, actually, it's his imagination that was there all along. It just took her a while to uncover it. And that's kind of my job is to find out what people are thinking all along what's going on in their heads, cuts through the layers between what they think and what my clients perceive. And that's yeah, that's how we get to the bottom of things is by asking deeper questions and not just settling for the first answer.

13:42Right, so we don't just settle for the first answer, but also you accept that if he's saying he's got a horse, we start from there. Okay, you've got a horse. Tell us about it. Is that what you're saying? Okay. How do we get to the fact that he doesn't have a horse? It's really important when you're interviewing your customers as a to have an open mind. Be don't have a script. Don't have 10 questions that you're going to work through. Have go into the interview with an idea of what is it that I want to learn. So if I want to learn more about what's going on in Adrian's head, then I'm going to follow the conversation. So tell me about your horse Adrian and then like I always record my conversation so I can be fully present. I'm not taking notes. I'm not looking preparing for my next question and not really listening. You've got to really listen. So take what Adrian says about his horse and follow the conversation. Ask the next natural question.

14:42Sooner or later, a good interviewer, a guarantee will get to the fact that the horse is a figment of his imagination or it's the way that the grasses look. But at the same time, you've taken him on a journey. You haven't, I hate the word journey. So I apologise for saying that. You've not made him feel bad. You've not contradicted him. Like people will tell you in an interview. It's all the times things that you don't quite believe. But with gentle and careful questioning, going a little bit deeper and making people feel safe, then those things will ultimately come out. That's fascinating because what you've just described is coaching. I have to say, I can't tell you how many people turn up, go, I'm doing this and I'm like, I don't think that's true. But you don't go, you're a liar. Adrian Simcox, I'm not having it. You sit there and yes, you gently question people until they go, yeah, another that's true.

15:44And was the fascinating thing about masterminds is somewhere around the third month of a longer mastermind. Many people will say that it's not that they've been lying, but they'll say, you know that thing I said, yeah, so the real truth is this. And it's because they feel safe. They feel secure. And you know, I said things were going okay in the company. Well, some part of it is, but much of it isn't. Now I know I trust you enough. I can tell you a bit more. Because you have given them, and I know this as a mastermind alum, you have given them the gift of again a phrase that makes me feel a bit big, but the gift of a safe space to feel vulnerable. I don't know if you remember Liz, but you said at the start of the mastermind, often somebody cries over the course of the mastermind. And I just sort of lodged that and thought, that's interesting, which one of them is it going to be? And listen, it was me somehow somewhere along the fourth or fifth month.

16:50Something happened and I cried, which is, you know, I'm crying on a Zoom screen, but I felt, you know, the tears just came without me realizing, but felt fully supportive. And that's what you do is you open up that space by listening. Like here's the analogy with that brat Chloe. Listening and creating a supportive environment where people feel hurt and feel safe. Well, thank you for saying that. And also, yes, you're right. I've forgotten about that. So you're like, I wonder who will cry. It's me. Yes, I remember you sent me a message directly afterwards. I never thought it would be me to pub. Listen, you see, she sounds hard as nails, but we know the truth, right? So after these messages, we'll be back for more of whatever this is. Military families often sacrifice precious time away from loved ones while serving our country. We were worried that with him leaving, that she would lose those connections with her dad.

17:54Some of life's best moments happen between parents, children, and the pages of a good book. United through reading provides that connection. And now, United through reading is also available to veterans. Learn more about United through reading at United through reading.org. And you're back with the Biz Book broadcast. I'm Liz Scully. I'm speaking to Catherine McAfee. We are still bickering about Adrian Simcox does not have a horse. Now, we've talked about getting depot. We've talked about the stories, but I would like to talk about the prime mover in this story. The unsung hero, which is Chloe's mom. I think she really produces a kind of strategic masterclass, a marketing masterclass. Instead of just, like, whacking her child around the head. So pull yourself together, Chloe. Look at the advantages you have, which I think to delightful as my mother is, she would have pointed out I was mighty, I was rude, and I was super advantaged.

18:55She's mom does not do that. She allows Chloe the time, whether or not you believe it actually happens. She allows her the time in the space to make her own mind up. And I think this is important from a business point of view. You don't want to be lecturing teams. You don't want to be instructing stuff from the from the top down. You want to allow people to come to the conclusions from the data from what they're seeing and allowing direct observation and empathy, which Chloe does eventually show. And through that, those genuine insight. And I think it's important to parenting super unusual in business practices. What do you reckon? I think it points to the power of seeing things with your own eyes, or in my case, hearing things with your own ears. When I report back to clients, I use a lot of verbatim quotes. And those are whenever they come up on a screen, those are the things that have people really leaning forward taking interest.

19:58Because I can list. Here's all the things that I've found. Here are the themes. Here's what you can do with it. But it's hearing the customers own voice in an unbiased way. And essentially, that's what Chloe's mum has done, has taken her along, allowed her to see it for herself. And that's what's made the impact and the change of the behaviour. So it's that immediacy of hearing or seeing for yourself what's actually going on. Yes. Yes. And I think what I liked about the book was that the moment of Chloe's mum taking her to Adrian's house, and Adrian not having parents, that sort of gently, gently drawn from the fact that it's not explained where Adrian's parents are, but living with your granddad is not a good sign for the parents being alive. You've let's face it. And certainly they're not nearby. And that sort of moment is very gently drawn, certainly illustrated within that within within the book, I thought myself.

21:02Okay. So we know that Chloe's mum works with kindness, with empathy. She's really helping this feeling. But there's also a lot of curiosity there. And obviously you have curiosity Catherine when you're speaking to people. Do you find that the companies you work for, they're curious because they've got they've sent you out to do it. Do they treat the return of the information with curiosity? Or are they sometimes a bit defensive about it? They are always open. I've come to this realization in the most recent months where I've been doing work for consultancies and creatives. And I hear really, really, really positive things back. And it's hard to find any dirt. But I've realized that's because the people who are most likely to invest in somebody like me are already people who are open-minded want to do their best and are curious. So I find my clients are really interested and really open to what they're learning. The curiosity is key. I think if you're not a curious person or that's not a value on for your company.

22:16And you get this research done that's when the feedback is going to be met with crossed arms and excuses. You know, they said this because that. And it's a way to not actually take action. It's only the curious people who want to grow and learn and do this work. Yes, yes, it makes sense. You're not going to invest in what are our clients thinking if you're not interested. Yes, that makes sense. But I would think that sometimes the owners of the company or the board wants to know this information. I would imagine that sometimes there's a marketing offices or maybe people sort of lower down middle managers that are like, well, I don't think I don't believe all that. So I could imagine there must be areas with that. That's why it's really important that the highest paid person in the room has buy-in. Because if they are the ones saying we want to understand our customers because you're right, there are often gatekeepers.

23:19There are people that don't want you to talk to their clients because I don't know even if it's their scared. But you know, maybe there are things that they selectively share and they might be worried that I'm going to uncover something. But yeah, you really do need to have buy-in from the leadership. And again, it's the really great leaders that are willing to do that stuff. There you go. So if you want to differentiate yourself, listen up. Make the effort to do the research. Then you are automatically a curious, a curious listener. I like that. I know that this stuff is invaluable. You know this stuff is invaluable. Our listener is obviously on board with this. Companies that get this information, however they get it, whether they use a researcher like you or they garner it in other manners. What do they do with it? I think we've all seen case studies which could be driers. And there are testimonials, just slap a testimonial on things. But for me, like little stories is the answer.

24:20Do you see that very often? Like there's an active use of this. Or is it like obviously they can use it to make strategic changes. But like what do people do with their research? Hopefully they use it to inform their marketing decisions. I've got a really good example that I had a financial services client. They hired me to talk to their customers who were mostly people 55 plus 60. One of the core findings that I found when I went through the transcript, and it wasn't something that I'd picked up at all when I was talking to them, but these clients or they would go almost say something sweary and step back from it. And I presented that to the company as a finding and then worked together with a copywriter who did a very clever, slightly cheeky campaign

25:20which, knowing that their customers were a little bit sweary, gave this traditional old school financial services company the courage to go ahead with something a little bit provocative. And when I caught up with their marketing manager year on year, they'd had a 900% sign-up in increases from one year's October to the following year's October. 900% sign-up. And that's from implementing your customers who are a bit sweary. That's for understanding your customers are a bit sweary and having the guts to hire a great copywriter and using what the copywriter wrote. Oh, interesting. So actively strategically using it is important. And also direct quotes, that's important. Oh, I love using that you get so much power if you can understand how your customers talk and the words that they use as opposed to how you describe it yourself.

26:29Because as soon as you're in a business, you've lost a little bit of objectivity. So, you know, if you're hearing the same sentences time and time again or the same kind of language, it's much more powerful to reflect back what people, the way that people speak, then just coming up with something clever but perhaps a bit dry. Oh, definitely. So plus one that I know that when I've used the exact words clients have said to me, particularly if they say you hear it a couple of times or repeatedly, it's like, how do you inside my head? How do you know this stuff? It is so much more powerful. And that seems like a lovely moment to draw this to close because we don't just want people to do research. We want people to actually use the research that you will do that you will both research lovely Lester and you're going to use it. I can hear you dotting. Yes, you are. You are. I can hear it. Yes. Excellent. Now, how can people find out more about you, Catherine?

27:30They can visit my website, which is nosey HQ dot com or I try and be active on LinkedIn so they can come and say hi on LinkedIn, just search for Catherine McGavi and you will find me. Absolutely. And we will also put those links into the show notes. And while you're doing things, after you've looked up Catherine, lovely listener go to Liz Scully dot com slash endless clients to find out how we could work together because that would be great. Of course, it would. You want my eyes on your business. You know, you do. And while you're there, pick up a reading list. They're great. And hope it's a contact page and let me know what you're reading. I'd like to know. So thank you, Catherine. And thank you, lovely listener. Thanks for listening to Liz Scully of Reading Central. Follow Liz on Instagram at Reading Central for what she's reading right now. Books are the answer to most things. So if you've got a business problem, there's a book that'll help.

28:32Get your reading guide at listscully dot com slash reading.