What's the Roadless Rule and Who Wants To Scrap It?

0:00This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human. Warning. The following song has been rated dangerously catchy and may not be suitable for grownups. A-B-C-D in the morning brush your teeth. A-B-C-D in the morning brush your teeth. A-F-G-H. Hurry up and don't be late. A-F-G-A-G hurry up and don't be late. Lingo Kids. Only suitable for kids. If a kid's stuck in mom's head, that's not our problem. Mabel Kids. Everything Kids Love. Download Now for Free. Kids board with the same old sports. Try Fencing. The Olympic and Paralympic sport that mixes speed, strategy and fun. It's like chess meets cardio. Quick feet, quick decisions, and a satisfying beat when you score a point. Kids, teens, and adults can start anytime. Fencing is one of the fastest growing NCAA sports. With new colleges adding programs every year. Many clubs have loaner gear. Coaches teach fundamentals and safety from day one.

1:00Find a beginner class near you at tryfencing.org. This weekend, the Monster Energy SMX World Championship playoffs race into Los Angeles. This is it. It's all the line. Now the pressure is on to deliver. And for the world's best 22 dirt bike racers, only one will go home number one. If all comes down to this, go experience all of the action live. Coming to Dignity Health Sports Park in Los Angeles, California this weekend. Get your tickets now at supermodovross.com.

2:02The first month's free at domorestuff.com slash free. Calls are media. In late 2023. During the wettest winter in years here in California. My friend tonight took care of thousands of people arriving in the country to claim a sight. In huge open air detention camps to buy a demonstration. Corral, too, meant in the desert without food, water or shelter. So we built them shelters, took them food and destroyed the suspension in our trucks. Holding water across the desert to keep people safe. One night with my friends, a violin James. I was out there in a storm. Desperate trying to build fires in the rain to keep people warm. And holding babies inside my jacket. Trying to keep the biting wind off them. I remember passing my coat to a woman who was breastfeeding. While I heated up baby formula in my camping stove.

3:02I thinking there was nothing that the state could ever offer me. Who would make me accept the way it is to treat these people. A few days after that particularly cold and stormy night. I helped on a 30 something hour flight to southern Kurdistan. I traveled by plane, bus and automobile across Baku, Kurdistan. Crossed a Tigris River to Rishava. There, I noticedly sat awake at night. This death came from the night sky to Kurdistan. In the form of Turkey's Beraktadrones. And the fighter jets of the United States sold to the Turkish military. In the mornings, I surveyed the damage my tax dollars helped fund. And then watched as US forces in the region did nothing to help their allies. And as people in Komishello stood in line for ages to donate blood. I think I arrived in Komishello just on or after October 7th, 2023. But at the time I left, Israel had already begun its genocidal violence in Gaza. While the world looked at Israel and Palestine, Turkey in the Assad regime both took their chances to take a swing at Rishava.

4:02Every day I would call Sophie and Robert and a friend Jake Hanrahan and my family and try to work out what was sensible and safe. How to deal with the fact that every night drones were peaking people off one by one. And that people I was going to meet were trying to kill. After that I traveled across Kurdistan. I met Kurdish leaders in public spaces and their little apartments. They took great risks to their lives to meet me. And I worried about them until I heard they were safely home. Then we would drive home. At night, wondering where in the region someone wouldn't wake up the next morning. By the time I got home I wasn't doing well. I was on a super short fuse and prone to shout or want to cry at the most trivial shit. I wanted to go home and get a shot. I had the most trivial shit. I wanted to go back and help my friends out in the mountains. But I needed to help myself first. So I talked to Sophie and she gave me some time off work. I loaded up my backpack, threw it in my truck, and drove as far as I could on the time. And then as far as I could get, and fall low on the dirt roads.

5:03Then I threw my pack on my back and dropped down thousands of feet into a valley where I knew there'd be water. That's how I deal with my shit. Just being in nature and observing. I'd hike some heroic distance or carry some super heavy load. I just need time away from the state or from my phone or from the petty bullshit of life under capitalism. I always find healing in the wilderness, so that's where I went. I've always loved Topo maps too. When I was 22 and I broke bike race living in a small town in the bike-scam. I had a huge Topo map of Catalonia and I pinned it to my wall. I trained most of the day and when I got home, I'd map out my routes on there with a pencil. Trying to find roads I hadn't ridden and mounted it had me climbed. It's not the best way to approach training, but even at that early stage in my career. I'd rather I wasn't really going to the big leagues for bike racing. And I might as well have as much fun as possible, until I had to do something much less fun to pay my bills. With a few other like-minded cyclists I'd head off into the mountains, searching for the tiniest, windiest roads.

6:03I ride past the olive water switch and through the walnut graves, stopping at little village wells to fill our water bottles, and buy food from bakeries and farmstains. Over time, the map got more colourful, and the people who spent their days doing intervals and performing in housing drugs got faster. Well, I just got a reputation of being quick-sortically uncotable, and a more wicked suntan that effectively branded the sponsor logos from my jersey onto my bag. I have a real job now. And 200 km a week days were a thing at the past for me, but I still love maps. These days, my maps live on my phone and the computer and on my wall. But I still love to look at them for areas I haven't been. Mostly I use a mapping software called ONEX, but there are tons of others. I like ONEX because it has a filter for roadless areas, and that's why I tend to focus my exploration. I'm always trying to find parts of the county or the state, where cars can't go and I haven't been. I like to get as far as possible from roads and trails and just observe. I'm not retraining for shit anymore, I just like being outside, and it's at times the greatest joy I find in nature is just to sit and watch.

7:05But sit and watch wild animals being wild. I have to get away from people being people. And often that means getting away from roads. Most of the time, when I'm exploring far from the beaten part, I'm not in a national park. Indeed, in the developed areas of many parks, you can't really go off trail. I tend to spend most of my adventure time these days in the expansive national forest, that sit to the east of many of the big cities in California. The Angeles, Los Pazvos and the Cleveland Forest have tens of thousands of combined acres of public lands. Lands are accessible to all of us, and don't require non-citizens to paint obscene fee or meet a purchase in annual pass with the face of the guy destroying our public lands on it. You do need to adventure paths, but at least graphics are uncertain obnoxious. I drive my truck, which is probably older than most of the people listening to this to the end of the pavement. And then I drive it along dirt roads, seeking out the ones that are just too rowdy for most people and find newer fancier trucks and cars. Then, when I can't drive anymore, I park up, lock up my truck,

8:05and head into the wild places. Ideally, I'll find a spot with no roads and no cell signal, and enjoy my time in nature without distractions or bother. Well, places are valuable for many reasons beyond my recreation. They're the watersheds for our rivers and the water we drink. The lungs set up planet needs as its struggles to breathe. The homes of animals, birds, plants, and insects. They're valuable not just because we use them, but just because they're there, and because they're little parts of our country not made amenable to capital and exploited for every last sentiment we pulled out the ground. They have an inherent value, and that value is one that we can never extract. We can never own, and we can never take away from anyone else. The value of wild places is that they are for everyone, and that they belong to no one. Edward Addy wrote, ''Desire Solitaire, we can have wilderness without freedom. We can have wilderness without human life at all.

9:05But we cannot have freedom without wilderness. We cannot have freedom without league the open space beyond the cities, where boys and girls, men and women, can live at least part of their lives under no control but their own desires and abilities, free from any and all direct administration by their fellow men. When I say wilderness here, when Edward Addy says it, we both mean small W-wildness. Not wilderness at wilderness, which requires an act of Congress to be considered wilderness, but little W-wildness, which doesn't care about the state or Congress-driven capitalism. It's not untouched or pristine. These are clichés that stand on a foundation of colonial ignorance that erases the presence of indigenous people on every inch of what is now the United States for tens of thousands of years. These places have been touched, walked on, and cared for by people since long before the wilderness act, long before the concept of public lands, long before the existence of the United States or the state at all. The world places matter because they're set apart from the state and capitalism,

10:07not from people. Today I want to talk about the people who want to take all of that away from you. I know it could be hard to keep up with the public land stories right now. It feels like there's a barrage of stories about threats to all world places. And that's because a Trump administration is doing what it does. It's flooding the zone, but amidst the flood and the feel of drinking from a fire hose, this one stands out. Recending the 2001 roadless rule will have an irreversible and massive impact on our world spaces, and that's what I want to talk about today. But first, when I talk about places to escape the petty bullshit of capitalism, I can't do that here, so here are some advertisements.

11:17Some moms say that's not our problem. Everything kids love, download now for free. Never wanted to try an Olympic and Paralympic sport? Try Fencing, it's fast, competitive, and even offered at the NCAA level. Find a beginner class near you at tryfencing.org. That's tryfencing.org. This weekend, the Monster Energy SMX World Championship playoffs race into Los Angeles. This is it. It's all the line. Now the pressure is on to deliver. And for the world's best 22 dirt bike racers, only one will go home number one. It all comes down to this. Go experience all of the action live. Coming to Dignity Health Sports Park in Los Angeles, California this weekend. Get your tickets now at supermodovross.com. Get the feeling you should maybe get out, born, see, and do more. Totally normal. So is staying stuck because finding out what and where just seems hard.

12:18A Do More subscription brings you concerts and comedy sports and museums. For seven scrawny bucks a month, you get at least one pair of tickets to something great. Discover new bands. Laugh, learn, do more. And right now Do More makes interesting and adventurous easy because your first month's free at domorestuff.com slash free. To better understand what's the stake here, I spoke to Jason Dovemark. Hi, I'm Jason Dovemark. I'm a veteran environmental journalist and I'm the author of a new book called The Earth. Said, remember me how to revive our memories and restore the planet. Like many of us, Jason's been following this for a while. The Trump admin has been clear about its goals here. So to begin with, let's discuss what the roadless rule is. So the roadless rule is arguably one of the most important protections for American public lands. It wasn't a law. It is truly just a rule.

13:20It was an administrative action put in place in the very last days of the Clinton administration. So established in 2001 right before Bill Clinton left office, the roadless rule covers 58 million acres of forest-service lands across the United States. This rule has been in place more or less for 25 years. The Bush administration tried to suspend it. It got hung up in court. But it's basically been in place for 25 years, which is important to understand because this, if it goes through, if it survives court challenges, it will go to court, would be arguably the largest rollback of existing environmental protections in US history. The Trump administration want to take 44 million acres out of that total pie of 58 million acres and remove the roadless rule for those 44 million acres. There are also state-level roadless rules in Idaho and Colorado. And that's where the acreage of roadless areas is not the same of the acreage of areas which would lose protection.

14:22Now, if you're wondering what anyone would want to do this, the answer is an entirely clear. The claim that they're making on the face of it is it's to help with world-fars oppression. And that claim is to put it bluntly bollocks. I mean, honestly, I was trying to think about it myself. It's so lame. It gives concern trolling a bad name. I mean, it's just like really crude concern trolling. Because, as many people pointed out, the predominant cause of fires are human activities. The deeper humans get into the forest on roads, the more likely they're going to be to accidentally create fires. So, yeah, some fires are natural and you have lightning strikes and that happens and that can spark a fire. But typically, it's something, you know, pretty innocent. It could be someone who's inappropriately put out a campfire. It could be hunters or marksmen who are target practicing in the woods and a spare spark goes into fire. It could be something as simple as a spark off of a wheel on a truck, right, getting into the undergrowth.

15:25So, basically, more roads equals more chances for fire. And according to one study that's still in peer review, if you have a road, you're four times as likely to have a fire in that area. And 90% of wildfires are within one quarter of a mile of a road. The explanation you'll hear most often is this suggests a straight up gift to timber companies. I think maybe that's part of it, but that's not all of it. I mean, the US timber industry has been in decline for 25 years and that's not primarily because of the road this road. Right, that's because of these macroeconomic forces that are far beyond the road this road. One part is actually a lot of furniture manufacturing being offshore in the early 2000s. Some of it had to do with there was never really a rebound in sawmills after the housing crash of 2008, 2009, right, that was a huge dip, that was a huge body blow of the timber industry. It basically never really came back the number of both pulpen paper mills and then sawmills for hardwood are dramatically down

16:29when they were 25 years ago. There's just not like the industry here to support necessarily logging all of these places. I don't see there's no risk. I mean, I do think there's probably some old growth stands with very valuable 600 year old cedars or 500 year old citrus spruce. Like there is valuable lumber that people want to extract. The other thing is that building sawmills takes time and cost money. And if companies were to build a sawmill right now, even if they built a super modern one that could cut small diameter timber, they would have to do so thinking that the next administration would not just reverse this ruling. And at the Trump administration has shown us it's very easy for an administration to reverse these rulings which really undermines the confidence any business would need to undertake such a massive investment. Most valuable timber, lots of all gross stuff has been accessed before 2001. And a lot of the timber that's left isn't going to be able to pay for roads that might be needed to bring it out.

17:32As Jason said, so I'll put some exceptions to that. Every is where that might happen and we will lose something truly valuable. But it seems like a lot of this rule recession is even stupider than that. I think the threat of logging and some very environmentally sensitive and ecologically valuable places is real. And yes, I think some of this as I said earlier is kind of concerned trolling it sort of a form of, you know, the Trump administration is kind of ideological pension for owning the lives or whatever the baby. For some members of the Republican Party in the Trump administration and much of the domestic rights, it's a sagebrush rebellion of the 1970s and 80s. Public lands and protections on them are simply wrong. They're opposed to the Montprincipal. And because this is a rule, not an act of Congress, it's an easy target for them. And it will have a massive impact economically. That just isn't a case to be made for doing this. So according to the best available studies, the outdoor recreation industry and that's, you know, backpackers, bird watchers, hunters, fishermen, etc.

18:36That's about a 13.5 billion dollar a year industry. The timber industry in this country is a fraction. It's about 300 million, right? 300 million is the logging industry in the US. And a lot of that is taking place in tree plantations, whether that's in the deep south and Georgia or Maine or here in the Pacific Northwest, is much more expensive to go log in remote, you know, public lands that it is on a warehouse or Georgia Pacific plantation. For what it's worth, the road just rule already has exceptions and allows for fuel removal and cutting small dams to timber and some other emergency road builds as well. Nor has the Trump administration set aside funding for fire suppression, fuel removal or even building needs new roads. And one thing that's really important for people to understand is the US Forest Service is the largest road management jurisdiction agency like on earth. If three hundred and seventy thousand miles of existing roads, most of those are like the gravel road you drive on to get to the trail and the gravel road you drive on to get to the rock climbing or, you know, fishing spot right there.

19:46Three hundred thirty thousand miles is already and they can barely maintain what they have so it's hard to see that there's a pressing need for more roads there just isn't. So what are we losing to this concern trolling? It's ten to thousands of acres of world places. Not the kind of world places you'll find on those silly top ten lists. Hikes which are beautiful are which are unhappy people are taking, but which are a fundamentally human experience shared with thousands of other people. These are places where you're feel small. Where human created things like the state, capitalism, roads and the waiting list you have to sign up for a slot on to do some national parks hikes can be forgotten for a second. They set apart from the things that we have done to our home planet. This is really high quality wild land habitat right. I mean, you know, this isn't wilderness capital W like wilderness capital W says no roads, but you need to pass a law through Congress you to pass a bill through Congress to establish a federal wilderness.

20:51But these 58 million acres of existing roadless areas, it's de facto wilderness right it basically is, you know, very high quality habitat for all kinds of birds, mammals, etc. If this revocation of roadless protections for 44 million acres were to go through and some of that does get chopped up, chopped up means sort of sliced through the death of a thousand cuts that are roads. Yeah, you're going to see real impacts to I think watershed is the most obvious one right all that stuff that gravel that sentiment goes down into the streams that's going to impact fish populations salmon and trout, etc. So I groups like trout unlimited are against this. It's why backcountry hunters and anglers are against this. You will also see speaking of backcountry hunters and anglers. You know, people who love wildlife, whether to just look at them or to harvest their meat, that's going to be another major impact right the more you slice roads through an area, the more you disrupt animals habitat, so the impacts will be real.

22:00In his book Jason talks about something called shifting baseline syndrome and how it applies here. I want to talk about it. So I asked Jason to explain what it means. Yeah, so shifting baseline syndrome is just a kind of fancy sounding academic term for something we've all experienced, which is the great getting used to right so the way that environmental conditions, whether it's climate change or the loss of biodiversity can happen so slowly that you start to not notice it any longer or you get used to it. You accommodate and you normalize and the argument that I make in my book the earth center, remember me is that this creeping normalization, maybe one of the main reasons why we've not dealt with climate change or the extinction emergency is we just keep getting used to degrading environmental conditions and in that accommodation, we start to accept them and acceptance is the road to to apathy and I think you could see that in something that you want to connect to the roadless rule.

23:00You could see that in something like, you know, fish populations right where the fish numbers in the size of the fish to go down and down, but it's hard to notice and suddenly what used to be small fry is suddenly considered a big deal. Morning, the following song has been rated dangerously catchy and may not be suitable for grownups. Everything Kids Love Download Now for Free

24:18Find a beginner class for your kids near you at trifencing.org. That's trifencing.org. Coming to dignity health sports park in Los Angeles, California this weekend. Get your tickets now at supermodovross.com.

25:18Right now do more makes interesting and adventurous simple and easy because your first months free at domorestuff.com slash free. There's a John Bryan song that I really would have liked to have my friends play as a theme tune for this show. But I pee being what it is that wasn't going to happen. Still, I think the song we have now is even more beautiful because people like hair about came to my home and sat there on a swath from July afternoon to make something to help me with my little project. I do want to mention that those of them I didn't name I appreciate as well they just didn't want to be on my podcast. Anyway, that song I think perfectly explains how I feel about what we're facing. So instead of explaining it myself, I'll show it with you through the lyrical genius of John Bryan. And the coal company came with the world's largest shell and it tortured the timber and stripped all the land. Well, it dug further coal till the land was foresafe and they wrote it all down as a progress of man.

26:28And daddy won't take me back to Munich, accounting down by the grain. Never wear paradise late. Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late. Masked. Mr. Peabody's cold train is all the way. I remember showing that song was a witch in front a couple of years ago when we talked about what it would mean for the Trump administration to be promoting drilling in the sacred place where life begins for witch in people. She said it made her feel like she was mourning for something she hadn't lost yet. And that's how I feel now. Jason's idea of shifting baseline reminded me of my time in the witch in village of Vashrikore or Arctic village of Illegina. I remember having dinner with an elder there, Gideon James, who told me he grew up with people who had lived experience of seeing buffalo on their lands. In his life, he'd seen the salmon stop running in a river, which made it harder for people to run dog teams, which meant they had to buy snow machines and you can't run snow machines on salmon.

27:33The baseline shifted so far in his lifetime that he remembered exactly how he adapted and continued to thrive in his home and on his land. But his baseline hadn't changed. That speaks to perhaps how he can sometimes better understand climate change through indigenous experience and time on the land rather than charts and graphs. But for many of us, the baseline of acceptably fucked up shit has changed. We can see this in the swinging of the ocean window to the right, the hotter and hotter summers, the bigger fires and the larger floods. We can also see it if we look at places where people did lose land that was more wild. Where I come from, in the UK, we don't have vast expanses of land set apart from capital in the state. A few years ago I was home with my mum, helping trim the feet of some of her sheep. And the girl to me as I slipped in the wet mud and said on my ass down the hill, looking idiot, that people have been caring for sheep. But be falling over like me in this very field, behind these same hedges, for far longer than the US has met a country.

28:35That's beautiful in the sense. But it also means I never got to experience our wolves, our bears, many of our old-gross forests too. I never got to walk through the woods and wonder if I'd see a bear, or what your wolf chase a herd of caribou as I did on the witch inlands. The fields around my dad's house have walls of the centuries old. It's nearly all owned by someone. It's impossible for me to imagine experiencing it as a truly wild place. Maybe think of that John Pryonson, and how much of what was wild there has gone, and can't come back. Carried away to the Walter market and sheep to the butcher. Don't get me wrong, I love sheep. I love how deeply connected the land and the people I grew up with are, to caring for those silly little animals that love to find new ways to die. I hope you keep downloading this podcast and encouraging your friends to do the same so that one day I have enough money to have some sheep of my own, by some land in the mountains where I can build a little house and hopefully never have a sale signal. But I don't want the land hit to be bought to heal like that. One of the things I love most about this country is someone who chose to come here at the wild parts of it.

29:37I love to walk in the woods and see a black bear. To look in the dust of the meadows and see where a mountain lion came down to the creek to drink, or a mule deer walk with her form. There's no amount of timber that you could ever sell to pay me enough to give that up. If you'd like to spend time outdoors too, or maybe you just derive a sense of well-being from knowing that these wild places exist, I can suggest two excellent resources for seeing exactly what these people want to take from you, from us, from everyone. The first is when Jason suggested. The tool that I've actually been playing around with for the past couple of weeks is, and let's just go check this out, it's an amazing interactive map. More than just parks dot com, which was a film more than just parks dot com forward slash road this rule. They've got an interactive map where you can zoom in by zip code and find the US Forest Service lands. Currently protected by the road this rule that would be at risk from this Trump administration plan.

30:37It's super granular and from when each one, they've got different layers that you can explore in terms of like, okay, what are the old growth forest there? What's the wildlife? What in many places the watershed? I mean, healthy forests are the cradle of healthy waters and healthy rivers. The second is on X-Maps. They make a mapping software that I mentioned earlier. I particularly like their map because it correctly identifies San Diego County as a habitat for black bears. And in a time when far too many corporations who make money of people going outside have shown a frankly disgusting amount of cow dizz. I'm glad that some haven't. So what can you do? Well, the on X page contains a link to public comment. And I've included link here to the comment page as well. Comment is valuable. Even if right now it feels like the government doesn't care about us or the land. Because at least when historians like me look back at this moment, they'll know how mad this made us all. How much we hated it and how much we didn't want it. Comment for what it's worth is something that has consistently shown support for the roadless rule.

31:39When they established the rule and the Lakeland administration, the federal government received 1.6 million public comments. Can't really say that was a record. I've noticed that some of the environmentalist and logistates record. Maybe something else got it. But that's a huge number. I mean, that is a huge number of public comments. 1.6 million people. How does the mid public comments who establishes the first time around? Well, if we're going to protect the protections as it were, right? If we're not going to let this roll back happen, a equal to or greater than that number of people are going to have to comment this time around. And it is important for listeners to know that there is a federal comment period open right now where people can submit to the federal government their own views. The federal government is required by law to respond to every single one of those original comments. So if you write an original comment and you write about a roadless area, a forest of this roadless area in your state or in your region, and you make specific claims for why you care about that area and why you are against this proposed rule change,

32:42well, they have to answer. They have to respond to that. Also, you can just go out there, be out there, be on the land that they want to take from you. Simply hiking or welling, moving however you move in these areas, at least gives a government and the forest service a sense of not just what they are taking, but who they are taking it from. Outside is for everyone, and I want everyone to feel safe and welcome in the outdoors. We're going to address that more in some future episodes with things about skills and how to get outside. But please don't feel scared to be out there. Be safe, of course, take the right supplies and await and navigate and await a call for help. I remember that the top of the mountain isn't even halfway through the hard part of the day, but if you can, get out there. Better yet, take someone with you. If you feel safe and happy in a world places, it's a great gift to share that happiness with someone else. It doesn't cost you anything, and the more of us who are out there, the harder it is for them to take it away from all of us.

33:44Thanks very much for listening this week. Next week, I want to talk about the border wall and the terrible thing that is doing to our public lands, to our animals, to our environment. If you'd like to email us, you can do so. We have a proton mail address. NaturalCourse is pod at proton.me, or you can email call zone tips at proton.me. If you enjoyed this podcast, I hope you'll subscribe. We have lots more exciting things to come in the next few weeks. Hope you enjoyed your Labor Day, and I hope you got outside. It could happen here as a production of Cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com. Or check us out on the IHert Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find sources for it could happen here listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening. Mom, are we there yet? 10 more minutes. Only 10 minutes? Can you drive slower? What's up with them today?

34:45Lingo Kids. That app we downloaded last week? They love it. The games, oh, this funny baby-bought character. Kids, we're almost there. No! With more than 4,000 interactive games, songs, and shows little ones can't get enough of. Lingo Kids is the number one entertainment platform for young kids. Why didn't we download this sooner? Mabel Kids! Everything Kids love. Download it for free. Have your kids ever wanted to try an Olympic and Paralympic sport? Try Fencing. It's fast, competitive, and even offered at the NCAA level. Find a beginner class near you at tryfencing.org. That's tryfencing.org. This weekend, the Monster Energy SMX World Championship playoffs race into Los Angeles. This is it. It's all the line. Now the pressure is on to deliver. And for the world's best 22 dirt bike racers, only one will go home number one. It all comes down to this. Go experience all of the action live.

35:45Coming to Dignity Health Sports Park in Los Angeles, California this weekend. Get your tickets now at supermodovross.com. Be honest. You don't feel as interesting as you used to. Maybe not as much fun or adventurous. Remember when you actually went out? Did stuff? A Do More subscription brings concerts and comedy sports and museums back to your life. For seven scrawny bucks a month, you get at least one pair of tickets to something great. Discover new bands. Laugh. Learn. Do more. And right now, do more. Makes interesting and adventurous, simple and easy. Because your first month's free at domorestuff.com slash free. This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.