What have we learnt about England?

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1:02happened this summer, even if the cricket hasn't always been the most compelling at times. Lots going off the field, perhaps rather than on it. Alistair Cook is here, Michael Vaughn is here, Jonathan Agnew is here, and our cricket correspondent, Stefan Schemelt is here. Stefan, let's start with you. Where do we start and where are we now? I'll start at the end. If I told you at the beginning of the summer, that by September, Joe Root would be England test captain and Kevin Peterson would be part of the England backroom staff. What would you have said? I thought quite a lot would happen. Yeah, well it has. It was only two months ago, and I think it's hard to remember this, given England's straightforward progress through this series. It was less than two months ago. Start of the summer holidays that England didn't have a captain or a coach. They still really haven't got their coach in place, but we started the summer with the Ashes Review, Brenda McCullum, Ben Stokes, Rob Keill, all back to stay in their positions. When England won that first test match against New Zealand at lords, I remember leaving lords on

2:07quite a wet Sunday, the football world cup was about to start. I remember thinking, cricket's not going to be the story now for the rest of the summer, football's going to start, everything's going to be honky during, then are going to sail through this. How wrong I was because it only took 24 hours from that moment on to find out what had happened in the Rex rooms, and that began that chain of events that led to Ben Stokes and Gussackinson first. Missing the second test, Stokes coming back for the third test against New Zealand, retiring on that crazy Sunday at Trent Bridge, two weeks later after that series that was lost, Brenda McCullum was sacked as the test coach, she remains as the white bull coach, then throughout that next little period, we had the hunt for a coach and a captain, route is back as captain, Stephen Fleming will become the test head coach, but that's not until December, he's due to arrive in the UK in the coming days to prepare for his spell as the new England test coach. Then we've had this test series as well, over Shadow, the little bit by what happened with Brydon Kass in the early hours of that Saturday, Sunday morning in Derby. While that

3:12has all been going on, the England T20 side have become the number ones in the world, or I think they've might have lost that place since then, and there's a pretty credible series we're in over India. It's been incredibly busy, and it feels like it's gone by in a flash. Yeah, indeed. Michael, hindsight is a fantastic thing, but do you think looking back at the summer, do you think England should have made a change, double change after the ashes? Yeah, I think many said that at the time. It felt like it needed fresh in up after a really poor winter, where the cricket wasn't right, the logistical side of the team wasn't right, selection wasn't right. Obviously, discipline was a problem with the team, so you would say that change should have happened. It didn't happen, but what came after surprised me, shot me. I'd be interested if the Deplied Pakistan first, what would have been the scenario of the summer, because we'll get onto

4:13where we're rating this England side, and have they had a successful summer? Well, ultimately, they lost the series that was going to judge them this year, which was the New Zealand series at home on the back of losing in Australia. They've played Pakistan first, I'm pretty sure that are one three-0. As Pakistan started, as we keep saying, is a poor cricket team, and you'd expect to beat them. Then they played New Zealand after that, I'd be interested to see where the leadership would be. So, as a schedule, done them a favour, actually, in a way? Well, yeah, well, I think done them a favour, but only time will tell. Ben Stokes is out of the England team, and doesn't want Lucky's going to come back. He's obviously off the captain's scene. He's decided to retire from international cricket, which shocked us all. That's suddenly afternoon. I think that Trent Bridge will leave long in the memory. I don't think I've ever been involved in a and an afternoon where so much happened from the resignation of Ben, a statement to suddenly getting a wicket with his next ball, to suddenly, he goes out to open the batting, that Yomilo gave bat seven, the batting, as crackers that they have done for the previous few years.

5:16We've had some interesting times with the batting hand under Baz McCullen. Ultimately, I get a feeling that things happen for a reason, and I get a feeling with Joe Routes caps in Stephen Fleming as coach. I feel a little bit more settled about the test team. I know this is a series that we can't trust the team on, and it's going to be harder and bigger challenges going forward, but sense seems to have come back. Just a little bit of sense within the team and within the management, and that gives me a little bit more confident, in particular, test match cricket, that we might see a more sensible approach moving forward. So, what do you think? What's the consensus here? In an ideal world, would Ben Stokes still be England captain or not? Jonathan and Alistair. Well, at first. I mean, I think it sort of sums out the summer, when the most salient points and observations made about where English in does now was made by Count Benface, who said, I wonder what would have happened if this team had played against New Zealand?

6:17And is right, you know, it does feel, I mean, Michael, it does feel much, it does feel more settled, feels more professional, feels more disciplined, and Stephen Fleming hasn't joined yet, and he is of that type. So, I think England have got to a better place now. Yes, it is hard to tell because of the Pakistan team and their situation, but look at the way that Harry Brook has been batting, for instance, you know, and he did that at Headingley. Did it here? Much more mature approach to batting, I thought, and one that's been lacking, and not just him. But just generally, the lack of discipline, I think, in a way, looks even more sharper now, when we see a more disciplined approach than it even, it was at the time. Let's face it, alarm bells are ringing at the time, you know, in Australia particularly, and then, of course, at the start of the summer, I mean, you couldn't have scripted what happened there, you know, with the reset and everything else. You know, look back at it now, I think it was just bonkers. How did that all happen? Well, it did happen, and it rather, I think, shows the depth of the

7:20issues that there were, but it does feel calm, it feels more professional, more disciplined now, and that's thanks to largely to Joe Roode. What about that question, Alistair, about Ben Steak's captain or not in an ideal world? The ideal world for the England setup after losing the ashes was that he would go through lead again, regroup, and his final thing would be, it would have been in a year's time, and had a chance of putting what went wrong right. The balance of the side is the one thing that Ben Steak's out of it, how much he makes a difference to the balance of the side. However, what I've seen over the last couple of games is and this series, it doesn't matter, but it became such a big personality in that side, being the big leader, getting all the credit for when things went right, as you do as I capture it, and almost, did he almost outgrow that side? Now, looking back, and whatever, the power

8:28he had and the influence he had on the side as players can have when they become this player who's delivered in all these occasions, all the big occasions, and then it did that hinder this side. And that's now looking back, now, the calmness that this side seems to go about, the bad business, we, it's probably worse for us as pundits, because we actually now know how this England side is going to play, where I'm the Ben Steak's out of the last two years before that. We're turn up, and when people say, what's your prediction? I gave up trying to make predictions to the general public. What do you reckon is going to have? I'm saying, I couldn't tape. Actually, now, under Joe Rue and his characters, and it's all going to be so lot calmer, and maybe that is going to be good for the cycle. I have to say, and I hope Joe Rue has his moment next summer, and he lifts the earn as an England captain. I would still love Ben Stokes to be the captain, though, but I'd love Ben Stokes to work with a Stephen Fleming or an Undy flour. I've said it many.

9:29You're being able to. No, of course he was saying it, but I mean, because he has become such a big character. Yeah, but he could have done it. I mean, he made the call he decided to retire, so that decision was taken of the equation, but I absolutely think over the next year or so, we'll have a moment where you look at this England creak team in the minute, they've not been challenged yet, and I want to see this team when it gets hot. I'm not seeing conditions hot when the pressure is really on, and you need someone to stand up under pressure and go, all right, I'll change the game for us. I'm looking down at the minute and thinking, who are those players? Now, I'm sure some of these players will grow into that kind of role, because they've certainly got the talent to do so, but let's not underestimate how much Ben Stokes has done for the England creak team over the course of many, many years, and how many times is Ben Stokes going on out of tricky positions against the better teams, not against teams like Pakistan. So, it's not going to happen, he's decided to move on, but I still would have loved to say,

10:32I said it many times, you know, yin and yang is what you need in leadership, and unfortunately, with Ben and Baz, it was yin and yin. And I'd love to see that Ben Stokes the yin with a Stephen Flemm in the yang, and I think that would have been a great combination, it's not going to happen. And as we keep saying, this team at the minute looks like it's been operated with most of the Manchester Scotts because he's taken the interim coaching role, and it's all been very smooth. So, I think actually, Marcus just got this stock over the last few weeks has gone up. You know, where he ends up, well, after waiting to see whether he stays in this system, whether he goes to the lines, whether he goes to a count, I'm not too sure, but I'd love to see Marcus just gothic the next time round that we're talking about an England head coach, I'd love to see his name mentioned in the hat. Stephen, we know it was on Ben Stokes' mind when he went to lords about standing down, I didn't quite feel right. Do you think it was on his mind after the ashes? Do you think there was that sort of data about continuing after the ashes? I can only remember talking to him about it before the test match in Sydney, and he dismissed it

11:36outhand that, you know, once the ashes had been lost, that it was only natural for a captain to think, am I still the right person for the job? And he just dismissed the idea that he would even consider his future. And then when he eventually came to explain the decision to stand down as captain and to retire, what he said was, well, I went back to, I went back home, I had lots of time to think, his injury happened with his eye, he thought more about it like that. And when he got to lords for the first test match and lots of us thought there was something just not quite right, that was essentially Stokes already with his ideas in his mind and trying to get it back really, that feeling about that he wanted to keep doing the job and he wanted to be in the dressing room, and then the rex rooms happened. And then those thoughts about finishing sort of came gushing out to lots of people and it almost happened. I think Cookie's point about Stokes as a personality and how that became essentially the team is a really good one. And a couple of things can be true at the same time, in that when we all left Australia, a lot of us thought, well, Ben Stokes should still be

12:38captain and Brendan McCullum and Rob Kear, the people who maybe moved on. And it's fine to think that and I think it was right to think that in that moment. But it's also okay to now look back at it and go, well actually maybe Joe Root is the best captain for this group of players because when Ben Stokes to cove, we had a lot of people who knew him well, who were experienced, Chris Wolkes, Jimmy Anderson, Stuart Broad, Johnny Besto, all those guys who knew what he was like and knew what he was going to be for good and for bad. Now there's a lot of younger players who I think maybe might have been in Ben Stokes's shadow and Joe Root can maybe get the best out of those with a car-my style of leadership. Let's not forget that very strongly worded tweety put out as well Stokes, I love this job on all that. I mean that was in what March was it? So he then he was still clearly very much focused on continuing as captain. Thinking about selling your car, start with a real offer worth real money from CarMax. Then take seven days to compare your offer and when you're ready accept your offer and get paid.

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15:46And right now hero bread is offering 10% off your order. Go to hero.co and use code iHeart to check out that's code iHeart at H-E-R-O dot CO. All figures for serving of hero bread see nutrition facts on hero.co. The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds. Okay, let's move on from Ben Stokes. Let's look at the makeup of the side. People were saying, and they have said it, Oli Robinson, where has he been? I mean, again, it's easy to say with hindsight, but we have been there have been cricketers in the past who haven't fitted in under some leadership structures and then they flourished under us. I can think of, well, Andy Catech is one, Graham Swan is another who flourished after being given an opportunity. What about Oli Robinson? What about that situation? I made a huge change. The whole we're keeping thing has made the massive change, isn't it? And it makes him, in my opinion, anyway, more likely to be successful in conditions

16:47where it's not actually quite so helpful for him, but the whole question of the keeper standing up, DRS and him probing away at that pad, basically the front pad, just around by the offstom, I think makes him dangerous everywhere. And more and more, I think, we'll be copying that now. It was, I was thanking the Australians for that. And Oli Robinson, I think, was thanking the Australians for that, because I just think that makes him, that makes him dangerous everywhere now. Yeah, I agree. I mean, if you look back, I think the England team became such a stubborn outfit where they wouldn't listen from outside and there was many very strong thoughts going into the ashes that they needed more preparation. It wasn't coming from a, you know, we know what we're doing, but it was a care of the England Cree team that they were going to arrive in Australia and not prepare properly. And obviously backfired on them. And there was many people saying it's not all about airspeed in Australia. You know, I've been down there for the last eight and nine years, and the best bowlers have been top of offstomped, those that wobble the ball. And England went with this airspeed approach, and it was crying out for an Oli Robinson style. And that's what happens

17:52in cricket and in sport, you know, you get a change of leadership. You see in football dressing, saying the management gets sacks, and suddenly the few players, oh, we can now get selected. And that's the case here, the Oli Robinson was brought back this summer by, by Paz and Robert Key. So they saw that something was missing in the win. So they probably accepted that Oli Robinson had worked a little bit hard on his fitness. And he's been a really good selection because he, for me, is a real key to this tack with Josh Tongoff, he's Jeff Rigg or sacks, and they're a really good four. But, you know, we didn't have a tone setter. Even last year, against India, we didn't really have a quality tone set or the start of an innings. And I know he's not been challenged, but you just know with Oli Robinson, the first over, you're always on commentary. You know that that first few balls can I have a good length, and the bat will have to play a four defense. Whereas in the winter, how many times it, oh, short and wide, Krashvah 4, Travis had often running, it was just a common theme. So, you know, a centre,

18:52keep using that word, sense, a sensible appointment of Marcus North, you know, a county cricket guy that knows the game inside out in the UK, knows players, he knows what these conditions are, he knows what you need. So, over the course of a bit of the chaos in the winter, I think we've ended the summer. I don't think it's been a successful summer because they've lost the series, which was the big series New Zealand, but now I sit back and go, I know that there's a bit of sense with Stephen Fleming, Marcus North, Joe Rue at the helm, you know, some of the selection, Dan Lawrence coming back in, no, that was a good selection because you need a bit of offspin, he's bought a decent amount of offspin for Surrey, he's batting as good as anybody in the county game in recent times. So, that was a really sensible selection. Yeah, so I've liked what I've seen in the last few weeks, again, Pakistan, we can't judge it, but isn't that the problem though? Isn't that the problem when we are at the moment, Pakistan? Yeah, but sense takes, I think sense will take them further, you know, if it was been more chaotic kind of, you know, take a punt on selection. And putting games to help. You can't, you can't, you can't, you can't, you can't, you can't,

19:55you can't take a punt on selection when you're talking about England of truth. Again, you go about Joshua's selection, that was just crackers, or could be thrown into a test match against Remanca. And there's been quite a few punts on selections, I don't want to see in test match cricket England taking punts on selection, I want a bit more sense and this series we've had it. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Who's your fifth or sixth bowler to come in? If, I mean, the big four have dominated the Pakistan series. Who's your fifth or sixth? Because there will be injuries along the line, weren't they? Well, it depends, it depends who gets injured, isn't it? It depends, I think we see with this four that it is, has been talked about how varied they are. And they are, they are very different bowlers, but they have, you know, that Olly Robinson doing that holding job, if you, the meant the real accuracy. And then so if he gets injured, you've got a shootout between Fisher and Cook for that place. And then, you know, if one of the paces goes,

20:57then you've got, then you, then you're going, who's bowling best out of sunny Baker or, or, riding cars. Riding cars, is he going, is he, he, to fair to him like in the ashes, he kept on going in real tough situations. It would be hard, you know, to keep running in. So yeah, so I think that's, that is where the select, that's where the administration of the side has to be good. Well, just briefly, Seth, where are we with riding cars? Well, he's available for selection. There's a, there's a police investigation on going into the incident of what happened on that early Sunday morning in Derby until that investigation concludes the cricket regulator can't do its thing. So I think it was only last week when England named a White Bull side when they said that, Brian Cosses, available for selection, he's not been picked at the moment, they've asked him to sort of go away and, and have a little bit of a reset. And I asked Joe route about that before this test match and said, do you want him in his squad and he sort of clarified a little while, look, he's, he's still not been available for this test match. He is available going forward in England's next decision if this sort of holding pattern with the police investigation

21:59continues in theory, Cosses available to go to to Pakistan for that White Bull series Australia and South Africa, whether or not England wants to pick him is a, is a different question. Yeah, I mean, cookies right, I think, cook and fish are the kind of Ollie Robinson kind of backup. You got Brian Cosses and Sonny Baker, Joff Rocher, Josh Tonk, kind of backup and Gussack Kinson. And then you start looking at kind of formation, if you want your best spinner in the side, you probably need Sam Kurren to be your number six and an all round, so you can have your best spinner. And then you start going who is the best spinner in the UK. England go to Bangladesh in the new year for two test matches. They have to pick Jack Leach. Jack Leach is the best spinner in the UK. You know, you look at his numbers, you know, it's going to spin in Bangladesh. You've got to have your best spinner. And then I will say, you know, who's the best off spinner? I don't think so, but it's not degrading show. It's just not the best off spinner in the UK. I'll throw a name out there. I mean, Cookie have been talking about. He's 28 years of age. He played for England a few years ago. I think he's bowling better than ever. He feels really well. That's quite nicely. I think Dominic Best is bowling as well as I've

23:02seen him. Now, I hope we're not in the stage of English cricket where because he didn't quite work four or five years ago, that you're looking at a finger spinner thing, oh, he can't get, he has got better. He's got better. He's played competitive cricket in all formats for Yorkshire. There's Jack Carson down at Sussex. I think they're two better offspinners than Showbush here right now. And if you want to win games of cricket, you want to go to Bangladesh. I think it's a really hard tour of Bangladesh. Bangladesh should be a tough team to beat in their own backyard. England have to pick their best spinners for that kind of tour. And I think as we speak, I think Jack Leach and Dominic Best are the best too. Interesting. I'm not convinced about Baker yet. I need to see him more, I think. Ollie Stone. I'm going to put his name out there as a sort of an atkinson replacement. You know, we're talking horses for courses. Yeah, he's out. He's that sort of full fullish length nippy. He's got a good summer. Try again to 10 for you other day. And yes, of course, they're always going to be fitness conversations about Ollie Stone. But if you're talking about replacements coming in from one of the more senior ones, you might be talking about a game or two.

24:06A sacking mmoo, another one. He's talking someone who reverse swing type. I know he's also had fitness issues, but he's fit and rare and to go now. I mean, there are there are others out there. I was thinking about the squad for South Africa earlier on. And the point about this quartet, and it's obviously it's great and they've been very successful. But England are only one injury away from either going to Fisheries. Only got two caps. Sam Cook with one cat Baker with one. The other bowl that was in a squad earlier on the summer is Henry Kroakum. I think he sort of is in the mix and maybe someone who benefit if if bride and cast. Right. You saw who won a hat trick. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The man who took two in two weeks. And on the subject of the of the spinner or spinners in Bangladesh, I wrote down all of these names that could feasibly be within being with a shout. Leech, best, rare and armoured, show a busier James Cole's Will Jackson, Liam Patterson, White, Dan Lawrence, Mason, Crane and Jack Carson. There's probably more that forgotten as well. And that's not me saying that the

25:07the cupboard is full. It's me saying that there's a lot out there and we're not entirely sure what they can do. Yeah, realistically, the one is going to play that is Dan Lawrence, isn't it? I mean, you can see this team that played at Edgerson being the team. Well, what can you be playing in that first test? I mean, the Jacob Bethel is the wanderer, isn't it? Yeah, this will be the team. I mean, it's the right team for those conditions. Unless suddenly the wanderer has become a bit driving when I used to play that, but you need your quicks and you need your part time spinning, you need to pack your batting, so I would think this will be exactly the team and the right team for those conditions. What about Bethel? Yeah, so Bethel's fit and and played some cricket. Then there's not much being much information about his knees, they're apart from he's had the operation. How long he's actually out for? No one, they don't quite know, do they? So the one thing I would say about Bethel, I think we saw this summer, he's still a kid and we've got to treat him a little bit, like he does need some preparation. Just played nine test matches, that's all. But he needs preparation for every series as well. If you threw Joe Routin with no red ball practice now,

26:08and he's been doing something else, you'll be absolutely fine with that. You know, but I just think we've got to get those basics back to really help him as well and help being creative. Yeah, I agree with that. I mean, he's a wonderful talent, but he knows only a human being. You know, if he's been out for five or six months and he's thrown into a test match at the one of the games out of Africa, you'd hope that he's had a few games to justify that selection. If he's right and he's played nicely, absolutely comes in at number three. Just very briefly, do you think only Pope would score more runs than Dan Lawrence at six? Oh, that's a good question. Because he's not a three, is he? Yeah, potentially he would. Potentially he'd get a few more, but he wouldn't offer what Dan Lawrence can offer with the ball. We haven't seen a great deal of his bowling yet, but if it's spinning, when you have two day games, you don't get to your spinner. I mean, how many of us have been if we had this sum, it's probably the lowest ever. Dan Lawrence has bowled, well, barely bowled in the Pakistan series. Just sorry, Mondain, Jamie Smith. You know, there was a few question marks about him at the start of this summer, keeping and batting. I think he's nailed

27:08that down. He's now his colleague. He's done a good job. His keeping's been brilliant now. Yeah, and really good. I think his batting is still not quite back to where he was when he started, whether that's just that confidence and that all. I used to walk him out when he got out there in the middle, had this aura about it. For a young, for a guy who just came to game, when you walked out, he was like, bullying the ball as a bit. I think his experience over the last 12 months in Australia and getting bounced out a bit and not scoring the runs he had to, I think he's had a bit of an impact on him. But I think he's keeping, like there's no question how good his keeping has become. But that again, you mentioned, Jacob Bethel, that's treating with a bit of sense and giving some creep before he comes back in. I'm sure they will do under this management. And you look at Jamie Smith every morning now. You look down and there is, he's down there with Sarah Taylor catching tennis balls. It's almost like you're looking down Alex Carey. Alex Carey in the winter every morning for 30 minutes catching balls. We didn't see Jamie Smith catch any balls in the morning. Apart from the ball as he ran, it was like the old club match, you know, just take a few from the, all, all kitted out with the pads on. Now there was no drills, there was no kind of diving around.

28:11So it just tells you Matthew, I went through that process with Bruce French, didn't he? Yeah, he did. He just worked and worked and worked and worked in Canada. An incredible wiki keeper. And it looks to me like the old adage of a bit of hard work has paid off for Jamie Smith. Jonathan and Stefan, degree of difficulty of that South Africa series, a friend and I mean, the Pakistan, okay, lots of wins, lots of big wins dispatched. What about South Africa? Hi, I think it's really hard. The world test champion. Yeah, yeah. But having not played a huge amount of test cricket is a mean time. Well, they will, they will have done. Yeah, I mean that series against Australia is really mouthwatering. Robardo question mark. Yeah, big, big injury for him. Yeah. The point on make is that once again, we're ending a summer where we don't know how good England are. If you think back to 2023 ashes, drawn series, we weren't entirely sure. 24, they lost to Sri Lanka at the over. We weren't sure how good they are. Last summer, drew with India, we weren't sure how good they are. Same again. Proper English people grumbling and we're winning. It's just the way we are, isn't it? Hey, we're picking the team apart. Excellent. Thanks very much, everybody. Well, there's our

29:16review of where we think England are at the moment. And well, as always, I suppose the most sports teams it's room for improvement. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So much sport today, and all the goals as they go in up and down the leagues. Yes, it's five lives for us. It's all the lights and better. It's not just up and standing around the 18th. They can't. That is sensational. They searched on the center. They didn't do it. Right hand and the former champion is now in the extraordinary stuff. They've done a show for us tonight. He gets on his knees and kisses the door. Five lives for it. The home of the world's greatest universe. The full time with the listen on BBC sounds. Hi, I'm Mass and Evelyn and I'm Presley Hossbuck. We're the co-host of Serving Smiles,

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