Western Retrospective: Rio Bravo

0:00Hey, this is Steve Bloom and you are listening to the Geekcast Radio Network. Hello and welcome to episode 255 of The Cinema Geek Science, one of your Cinema Geeks Optimus Solo and joining me as usual is a comic concierge Dan, how you doing? I'm doing well, I'm doing well excited about this conversation we'll see. How we are in this one because I know we were kind of in the other ends with the last film we did and so I was all excited last time, Dan, I'm getting into my feelings. Now I'm wondering, you know, how we will align or whatever the opposite of line is. My brain has a little bit of a... I've heard. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it'll be interesting. So yeah, we're talking Westerns again today, we just always like to keep you guessing as to what we're covering. Not really because you always can see the title before you hit play. So there's never any mystery whatsoever.

1:01But yeah, we're back in talking about Westerns here today. We're going to cover another wood of... Dan, we made a mistake though because I know nobody can see this, but we have everything like outlined, of course, because Dan and I are big fans of lists and excels, spreadsheets and databases and things like that. So for those of you that don't know, and obviously we like to name like all of our blocks and things like that. And I know we created this block and we weren't sure exactly what to call it because we had already done kind of the John Ford block, which was also kind of like classic. So we were like, oh, just more classic Westerns, right? I didn't realize that we should have just called this the Dimitri Tomkin block because the guy that has done the music for all of the films we've covered in this block so far is added again with this one. I don't know that either going in until, you know... Yeah, so the same composer or whatever for Red River, High Noon and the one we're covering today, which is Rio Bravo. So I had no clue. Didn't even know he was a person that existed before him,

2:02but in retrospect, we should have just called that this block and then I guess we would have had to boot out our next film and just made it a three movie block or we would... Maybe he's done other Westerns that I'm just not even aware. I was going to ask you because our next at Westerner Shane, so I was wondering did he do Shane? I don't think he was involved with Shane. I could be wrong. Someone could have correct me, but every time I pull it up and I'm like, oh, the same guy's doing the music and the song will work. So it's very interesting. But yes, we are covering Rio Bravo today and before Dan lays the groundwork for it, I know we always talk about at the end of the previous episode, but just in case somebody hasn't listened to that one, Dan, what is your backstory with Rio Bravo heading into this one? This was the first time watching for me. This was long on my... It's a shame, so I was happy to give this a shot because this has been a bit since I haven't watched one since the under-seen one. So out of all the more classics or the Demetri block that we're doing, this was the one I have not seen.

3:02And of course, it's a blind spot as most of the films have been for me besides the modern remakes. That'll change a little bit, I think, not right away yet though, but once we get towards the end of the next block, then I think I'm going to go on a trip of having seen like five or six out of the next films that we've seen. So eventually I'll have some history with these, but no experience with Rio Bravo for me. So before we get into kind of our thoughts and opinions on Rio Bravo, and before we kind of reveal if Dan and I are going to agree or disagree on this one, let's let Dan lay some groundwork on the backstory and the facts about Rio Bravo so Dan take it away. So are you team high-news or are you team Rio Bravo? As this week we continue our Western Retro Spective with a look at Rio Bravo from 1959, directed by Howard Hawks. The story takes place in a small town of Rio Bravo, hence the name where Sheriff John T. Chance played by John Wayne,

4:02Arrest John Burdett, the younger brother of wealthy empire for rancher, Nathan Burdett for murder. That's the worst kind. Nathan Burdett uses his influence to demand his brother be released. He has a large group of armed men at his disposal and they surround the town jail while waiting for the opportunity to strike and free him. Burdett refuses to give in. Unfortunately for him he just has very little help and the help he does have leaves a bit to be desired. Yes dude, played by Dean Martin, former alcoholic who's struggling to regain his confidence and good old stumpy, played by Walter Brennan, an elderly and loyal deputy but he's got a bum leg and maybe doesn't like to know the difference between his men and the enemy. And a young gun slinger named by Colorado, played by Ricky Nelson, also becomes involved. And things of course get a bit more complicated when brothers shows up, played by Angie Dickinson. She's very confident, she's an independent woman

5:04traveling through town and she develops a bit of romantic relationship with Chance, despite the awkward chemistry. The bulk of the film centers on chance at a small group holding the jail against Burdett's much larger force while waiting for the US Marshal to arrive to take Joe away. Rather than simply being a series of shootouts though, the movie spends time just showing the men building trust, overcoming their own personal weaknesses and demons and deciding whether they're willing to stand together when the odds are very much against them. Eventually the Burdett gang attempts a fierce final confrontation. Chance and his allies do turn the tables though, leading to a climax to shootout and capture Ethan Burdett and his men. As mentioned this film was a response to high noon, Hawks disliked the idea of a sheriff spending a movie begging ordinary towns people to help him when a gang is coming to kill him. He felt a real law man would simply do the job himself and only

6:06rely on those he trusted. So Hawks eventually asked, what if we made the opposite movie? And we have Rao-Vo, John Lee Sheriff, John T. Chance doesn't go around asking for help when people offer it to him. He's reluctant to accept it, his attitudes essentially, this is my job, and I'll do it, and I'll just bring the people I can trust. One of those people he trusted was Dean Martin and was a bit of a chance there. At this point he was mostly known for being part of the comedy duo, Martin and Lewis but he's trying to transition into being a serious singer and actor. His character who was a real covering alcoholic, hitting rock bottom was a big stretch but it paid off. Maybe because of that chance, they cast Ricky Nelson in the Colorado or Colorado role. At this time he was one of the biggest team stars in America due to the adventures of Ozzie and Harriet and his own recording career. Hawks even noted that casting him probably added $2 million to the box office. A box office that did prove to be positive and also like high noon, its response

7:13for your bravo was really well received by critics and that praise only increased over the years. But what do Kevin and I think back to us to discuss? Alright, thank you for that. Everybody knows what they need to know. The 411 is the kids at some generation probably said about Rio Bravo this 1959 Howard Hawks film like you had mentioned. So first time watch for both of us Dan and I was curious we referenced this a little bit when we were talking about high noon and that there was some underpinnings of some desire to make a film that was slightly different than high noon and things of that nature especially when we're talking about John Wayne and Howard Hawks they weren't huge on high noon it seemed like. So this is like

8:13I guess their response in a way even though it came out seven years later. So I mean they had to get their ducks in a row first. So delayed response I guess but I'm curious on a couple front Dan I'm curious if you see any of the connections or the threads that would tie these two films together and regardless of if you see those things or don't see those things it doesn't mean that they both can't be good or they both can't be bad or they one could be one one could be the other even if there are you know the threads that tie the two together. So what was your take here on a first watch of the 1959 classic Rio Bravo? Certainly see them answering the same question in different ways right where high noon you have this possible threats so you have the lawman going around asking for help trying to get assistance try to deputize individuals where you know John Wayne felt like that made him look weak that's not something that should happen

9:17so with Rio Bravo it's you have the opposite approach where they aren't asking for help they're just accepting their fate and even when help is offered they're they're reluctant to accept it in the first place and you know they can they can have it or you know they're very specific like even saying you know not wasting your time or you know not wanting to have people waste their lives give up their lives for something maybe that they don't need to. So you certainly see different approaches I think there's merit in both so just on that sense of you know what they're trying to say and things of that nature lane so I think you certainly see them taking the idea high noon and going in the opposite direction more the tough guy like no we're gonna we're gonna tough it out and do it ourselves type of thing but that aside like what really like surprised me ultimately with this and we did Red River of course and we've done a lot of westerns and we have a lot of westerns have had simple plots that are pretty straightforward need to get pointy

10:19to point B this is very much that we've had those that have more complex more layered narratives but this is a very simple story they have a criminal in the jail and they're trying to hold off into the martial gets there and there's basically the entire town potentially your members of the town trying to get them out so they're trying to maneuver but really it's just an opportunity to tell this character based story this is like one of the most character focused movies we've gotten thus far and which surprised me because it's not something we saw with Howard Hawks it's not even something we've seen a lot with the John Lee movies we've done thus far so the movie like real bravo certainly highly regarded highly respected and big reason why we're talking about it you know going into this so I was you know well last week we mentioned high noon and wondering does it deserve that recognition is it something where you have a movie that's lawfully praised and it just stays there and maybe doesn't well you have movies that come back afterwards

11:24to go better job and with we a bravo like I mentioned I appreciate the approach I do think I was ultimately a bit disappointed in it in the sense of when you have a movie that is so character focused it's a really like the characters and there are some characters that I really did like but there are some that I felt were fine and there are another there was one specific character which will get into that I really did not like and found very tiring by the end of it and there were some other elements here and there I so ultimately think it's a certainly good movie and I could see where the praise is coming from but I was hoping considering how much I led Rev Rev Rev Rev this isn't you know a lot of the same team coming back again I just it didn't have that level of excitement for me and I just felt like there are pieces of it that I had a lot of that picks about just the logistics of but I was curious you know what and all you weren't a huge fan of high noon or your thoughts when it comes to I guess I didn't say huge fan you had

12:28your issues with high noon what were your overall thoughts when it came to this one so when I was watching this film the thought that kept coming to my mind and I know you like to do wrestling and allergies and things like that I'm not doing that but I feel like we're of a similar age and I think I've probably said this before on the podcast but I'll do a I'll do a reference to to something that you'll for sure pick up on from our times growing up and watching sports and sports center to me this movie was cooler than the other side of the pillow like this was just like I don't know like I was thoroughly entertained throughout this film like I enjoyed my time with it I enjoyed the characters I could have watched an entire TV series full of these characters like just give me more like this movie instantly wanted me to suggest Dan that we do a retrospective

13:29on either Angie Dickinson or Dean Martin like I was I was like looking up their film agro fees afterwards like is there enough films that we could cover this if Dan doesn't want to cover it which ones I'm not going to watch anyways like I legit Dan because I didn't want to watch any of the movies because it was fairly late I think when I finished whatever I finished yesterday doing and I still had a little bit of time before I was going to go to bed so I actually found the old Dean Martin celebrity roasts oh nice some sort of free service that is streaming that you don't have to pay for and there's actually an episode of that that they roast Angie Dickinson really and and so Dean Martin's the host in Angie Dickinson is like the person getting roasted and it has like the panel of people that are roasting her is just ridiculous it's Jimmy Stewart's on there horse and wells is one of the people like roasting Jimmy Walker like it's phenomenal like

14:34I don't know how you know a lot of times comedy and humor doesn't work from eras that you're not part of and I'm sure there was a lot of stuff I didn't get or that was over my head but I was legit like just laughing and having a good time with it so that was like my way of like I need to get more of these individuals so like I watch the celebrity roast with them as at a much older age much older age then they were when they did this film because I think it was probably between 1974 and 1980 or something like that so you know it was a good 15-20 years after this film was done but no I just really had a good time here and what I kept thinking to myself and I know we were gonna disagree on this because we had a little bit of a different take on high noon high noon is an hour and 20 minutes this film is two hours and 20 minutes so it's a legit one hour longer film uh real Bravo is and I kept thinking to myself like how does Howard Hawks make two hours and 20 minutes of basically waiting around just like high noon so much more entertaining

15:40and like fun to watch than then high noon was with an hour less runtime like they both have ridiculously incredibly simple plots like yeah we're we're both gonna wait for the majority of both movies for some sort of climactic thing where there's you know whether it's a showdown or whether it's you know whatever it's like the clock is ticking we know the train's gonna arrive or the train's gonna take off or somebody's gonna be the marshals coming down the train so the very similar plots I get like why there's some ties to it but like in this I the difference for me is in high noon I didn't give a crap about any of the characters um and in this movie like the characters were the movie for me like I didn't give a crap about the plot like yeah I I did not have to be so crashed I guess I shouldn't say that word my daughter's gonna say I said a bad word if she ever listened to this which she never will but uh the the characters were the entertainment here and like I felt like I was like a part of this town with them like by the end like we really

16:44get to know them and we really get to spend a lot of time with them and it's interesting because not only is it a two hour and 20 minute film which is long but it's also a film that doesn't shy away from taking its time and really just like letting these individuals hang out or interact or discuss or sing together or whatever the heck they're going to do which you would think would be problematic in a movie of this runtime because you think you'd get a lot of folks that would be like can we move on with this can we get to whatever we're doing it I never felt that because I was just genuinely enjoying my time with these folks and like learning more about them and getting to see the chemistry between them everyone's bringing in a little bit of something different I'm I'm like very intrigued on which character you did not like because I liked all of them yeah like equally I was drawn to all of them for for different reasons um so like

17:50I don't know it wasn't scared to slow down it was comfortable in its own skin it lets people talk jokes saying argue exist just exist together it lets the characters of live the movie is not in a hurry and somehow for me that made it more entertaining rather than less so I I am coming out of this one like I'm not saying it's the best film we've watched it may be the most rewatchable for me though interesting yeah uh and it's like because typically I like I don't mention you mentioned with reabravo or not reabravo but with high new and like so much of it or things you typically love and it didn't work for you so I'm think with reabravo the sense of this is a type of movie I love hangout movies love movies that are really not all that caring about their plot that are really character focused and I think ultimately like I love everything around demartons dude character I think that is extremely strong I was really impressed with den martens performance because my experience outside of this mostly is with his stuff with you know Jerry Lewis Lewis and he's playing a straight man and he's like

18:54as you say cooler than the other side of the pillow to steal a Stewart Scott phrase and he just he's the perfect guy like everything goes right for him so seeing him not that at all and you know obviously you know his real life he dealt with alcoholism a bit so I think he certainly brought that into that role and it was very real how he dealt with it obviously was very of the time and maybe not always the right way I do think it was funny it's like like no give him beer that'll that'll solve the problem but it's so bad but but it is reality when like you're an alcohol can you give up out especially to certain level and you give up alcohol it's really difficult challenging and you have those you know those physical drawbacks and everything like that so I thought everything around like den martens dude like I thought he was certainly it is ultimately like I think his movie in a way like John Wayne's the star but this the story is he's the first real character we see you know it's he's you know bubbling in trying to take money out of the

19:58spit jar or whatever they call it a tune yeah the one the one character I hated or just hated a strong word but you're very tired of was stumpy Walter Brennan like who perhaps we've seen in other movies I just the boy like I just thought he was up to 11 all the time and just like like always complaining like and I thought like he was like putting on the voice like it sounded like he inhaled helium and then also doesn't have his teeth in and with like the the put on so they're an accent it just it just I don't know I don't know maybe it was just not in the right mood for it but like I first thought it was fine but it just kept going I think the scene that really and I know that was the purpose of the scene but you have the scene where he shoots that Dean Martin the dude and he's like responding to it and like he's just like digging in further and further and like he says like you know I'm like guy like this record like read the room for a second and I know that's exactly the point but it's like you two steal a wrestling phrase there's heat

21:02and then there's you know go away he he had go away he for me for a while but you know so I just like I don't know why it just didn't work for me but that was the one I mean maybe I've just maybe I've just known too many people that are like that in real life yeah yeah for me like I don't know I mean I'm not saying it wasn't unrealistic I think he was effective at what he was asked to do it just wasn't working for me personally I was actually trying to look up to see like how much voice work he had done I'm like I swear I've heard this guy before I know he did sound like a Disney character like I feel like you know thinking of like the Disney cart you know the animated Robin Hood like he could have been on that yeah yeah and then I like John Wayne he like I think though in this we look compared this like to his performance in Red River where you know he was acting like he felt like you had like and it was a harsher Wayne this felt like he just like accepted the John Wayne persona and he was just he was just kind of in that like it was just John Wayne being John Wayne I will say like the one part of this I did not buy and I was curious what

22:06you thought of it was the relationship between him and Angie Dickinson I think Angie Dickinson was great I think they have the chemistry of a father and a daughter and like not even like a father and daughter that like have a close relationship but ones that maybe saw each other every other weekend and like they're kind of like hanging out but like they just I couldn't buy them I don't know like their their relationship just like just it felt very forced or like I don't know I couldn't they just seem to have like lack of chemistry for me I don't know what you thought about that um so two things I think this is the most John Wayne John Wayne has ever been yeah like this is the purest John Wayne performance like we've seen some of the other John Wayne films and we've made comments of being like you know he has this reputation but I'm seeing something different in this film we're like I'm actually seeing some more layers in like Red River or in some of these other films we've watched like there's there's more to it like you you know it's stereotypically portrayed like this and I'm not seeing that 100% not that this is this is where the stereotype comes from I know this is later on but like I feel like this is the purest John Wayne

23:09performance of his career whether you like that or don't like I feel like this is the one that holds up all the stereotypes right like the professional, affinate, capable, principal there's no dark there's really no darkness like there's not really any psychologically complex aspect of his character here yeah which I get why that would be you know maybe not as uh why you'd be drawn to some of his other performances and you know if I was to list my favorite John Wayne performances I'm sure I would list some of those other ones first this might be one of the most enjoyable though because it is just me and him like it's just like okay like I'll just take it for what it is it's like watching I don't know I'm gonna make people mad but it's like watching an action film and you see like whoever it is Steven Segal or John Claude Van Dam or Arnold Schwarzenegger it's like they're just they're doing what they do right like I'm not expecting a whole lot from them right like yeah so like and I will say like I thought I didn't have an issue with this performance I thought he and I thought him and Dean Martin had a good back and for like him being the straight man

24:13it gave room from Dean Martin to like fill in those voids so I thought they worked well together so I had no issues with this before we were going to write it yeah I thought he honestly worked well with all of them in a way like I think his like it's a different I guess that's where you get like slightly different shades like his interactions with dude is a little bit different than his interactions with Stumpy I don't know why everybody has to have a nickname in this film but but but whatever it is it's a lot straight you know like I feel like the cartoon version kids would love because they all have their own persona and their their names and stuff like that um you know his interactions with Colorado like they're all a little bit slits it I don't want to call him like chameleon because I don't think it's that complex but like he is reacting and acting with those folks each in a slightly different way based on his relationship with them and his like history with them or lack thereof so I did think that was kind of fun when it comes to him uh and feathers uh Angie Dickinson's character to keep the nicknames going which did get a little bit ridiculous but I I know he was worried because he was worried

25:19about the age difference right and people not buying it he's 50 what 54 56 something like that in the film I think I think he's 26 27 something like that yeah so like they're literally he's double her age which I get I think maybe I was so taken away by her in general like I think she is absolutely magnetic and I was instant I don't I didn't have a lot of backstory with who Angie Dickinson was but like immediately I was like oh she had to like go do like a million other things like this person I feel like this was like her first role and she's gonna go on to do like 3000 films because like she just was like she had it she had like the charisma the the whatever like she's got it I'm not familiar with her career I did some you know some research and looking afterwards and you know it seems like she had like a she did a lot of movies and then she had like some very substantial television roles uh I think police woman was one of her her major shows that she did they

26:21referenced that a lot in the celebrity roast so I kind of picked up on that as well but and she had a long career right like she did so forever but man in this film I was like whoever cast her in this film like they should have gotten an award because I thought she was just perfect so I can see any guy like being drawn to her I understood John Wayne's appeal I understood that completely the other way though I was I guess I'm trying I somewhat get it because there are a lot of times where you're drawn to that persona that's like really hard to to you know crack the shell on or like you're you're drawn to the confidence and like the all of that type of stuff so I wasn't as bothered of a buy yes it was a little bit like I don't know if I 100% buy it but like I could there's enough in like what I've seen in in my lifetime and and through other stuff that I do kind of see that like some

27:23some people do go for that right like some people do do like the the really hard to pin down like mysterious confidence and stuff like that so I was like I'll just go with it and I just like tried not to let it bother me too much and then I was like I'm just gonna like uh imagine like I'm John Wayne I guess in this and like we'll we'll all be all right but um yeah but I was I was definitely I do think like one thing that I really appreciated in this one and again I'm not trying to bash on high noon but like we talked about character arcs and you made a case for a couple people that you know definitely you could see that they had some character arcs in the high noon but like I got a lot of that from from this one especially with dude um you get to see a lot of his like his growth over the film and kind of two steps forward one steps back type thing or a little bit um throughout the film and you get a little of that from some of the other characters I can see like some people having a problem with Angie Dickinson's character that like in the beginning she seems like she's a very independent and kind of an

28:29agent of her own uh stuff and then like once they flip the switch to she's I guess quote-unquote smitten with John Wayne she really does kind of take not a submissive role but like she doesn't have quite as much agency as she did in the first part I think um and so I could see some people like maybe having an issue with with that where she like is more in the forefront and then kind of lets herself become more of the back um going forward but I think she still does do stuff that shows like she has some um some spunk and some you know some her own will power to like make her own decisions but I could see like where some people may think that was a little bit jarring I understood her like her development there and I'm bad because she seemed like someone who was a bit lost she was you know she was looking basically just surviving at that point so having an opportunity to have some sort of I don't know safety net or some sort of structure in her life

29:33and being able you know getting a job and feeling at at home I could understand like her desired if you know finally settled down and not have to you know play playing these like gambling games and you know having to right basically lie cheat and steal to get ahead so I got that I think I think generally like her decision making like I understood that for the most part yeah one person we haven't talked to oh sorry go ahead I think you're gonna do the same thing I was gonna do so I'll let you go was it I was gonna mention Ricky Nelson in the call yeah I would say like call orata or whatever yeah another nickname because my question for you Dan is we've had a lot of this I don't know tropes the right word but like we've had this character like in a lot of the other films right the young yeah Gung Ho or the young like whatever like magnificent seven comes to mind where we have it we know we've seen it in a number of different films and I feel like we've we've been somewhat critical of that role in a few of the other films

30:33that we've covered where a couple of them came off almost two eager or two whiny or two like really searching for that like um acceptance or that uh credence that they're they're looking for from like the older more established folks in the film we get a little different take on this one where he's not searching for approval or acceptance it doesn't seem like he is pretty confident in his own right so I was curious how you felt like this version of that like the young buck character either worked better or worse than the other ones we've seen yeah but like the young hot shot I think he worked in a character more sick in the sense of not his rivalry with dude because they're not rivals but more so representing what dude once was and what could be you know because you know dude isn't dealing with the ramifications of like his misdeeds and trying to come out of that hole

31:34here comes around the the the new young gun that can come and replace him that maybe is just as fast if not faster so I think he works in that element I think the thing that like I that didn't necessarily work for me as well in a way is that he just almost the opposite problem where he's almost like too perfect like he just like there isn't a flaw on him uh at all uh so it's like he just doesn't have and with that he you know he kind of stays as who he is at the end is the same way who he is beginning is similar to who he is at the end although in the sense of he's got more this relationship and I think they worked well together but that was my only takeaway like issue with it is that there was like there wasn't much to him except for like being like the guy that's like perfect at everything and like that that has its place and I like I said I think it works well in the sense of having that and having it work against you like you clearly was like a lot of ice more so to aid in the development of dude and I guess that's also kind of one of my

32:39issues then too because if it is such a character piece and one of your characters isn't maybe doesn't have that much layer do you have some issues there but also I did like the performance and I did like the little mini concert reggaard that was about that uh that like that's again that's stuff I do love is like characters hanging out like and then you play one song and like oh that was nice and then they go again and play another song I'm like all right like you can tell I definitely tell like this is a different time but also I didn't I don't know I guess Ricky Nelson was a star yes before the movie came out like I'm not really familiar with him at all I don't know if you are but this is this is my first direction with him I'm gonna tell you a quick story that has nothing to do with this film but then it like was very weird that I watched this film when I did because I've always questioned two things in like celebrity life whether it be sport stars musicians actors etc my one thing that I've never understood is why they drive

33:43because you have enough money to just like literally pay someone to drive you everywhere for the rest of your life and you never have to worry about getting a DUI like Tiger Woods why are you still driving yourself please oh yeah okay that like that makes no sense for sure yeah like I've never understood it like I get it if you're just like totally responsible and you don't drink in this end the other but like why a celebrity ever gets pulled over for a DUI is beyond me so I've never understood why they drive themselves if they can't handle it and the other thing that I've never understood is is why they're always obsessed with private jets or private jets private planes or like small non-commercial planes and like I've always in my mind because I went on one once like one of my the old company that I worked for literally the owner had his own planes and they flew us once to Lambo Field and you know we got to watch Aaron Rogers against Tom Brady and it was all cool or whatever like you could literally fit like eight people in this plane and that's probably the last

34:45time I'll ever be in a plane like that because I have this unrealistic like maybe not an unrealistic fear because it's happened so many times throughout history where people get in these planes and like it doesn't end well for them like yeah could we Bryant like so many different singers etc and this is the same thing that happened to Rickie Nelson basically but the weird thing is is like last week my wife's boss was trying to convince my wife to go on his plane and they were going to fly somewhere for breakfast and he wanted her to take Searsha and my daughter with with them and I was like I'm really not comfortable with either of you going on this like small little plane that doesn't have a like trained crew that makes sure everything's all right and doesn't have people that are checking the weather and the radar like I know it's probably going to be fine 99 out of 100 times but like do you ever hear anybody that like you don't hear about a lot of people die from flying like united or like American Airlines I know it happens but like not much of that time frame one of those it was a daily occurrence with that story yeah that's a whole nother story that's

35:48government and it's finest but like you hear a lot more of like the private planes that go down for like whatever reasons like the there's been who's the Roy Orbison died like that a lot of people in anyways um what's his name the guy who's saying about the oh the little American pie is about I can't think of a name yeah well yeah oh my god is the one who sang plank yeah yeah but there's a lot of celebrities right on time yeah yeah John Denver died like that um and like there was literally no rain in the forecast for the next morning where they wanted to do this like it was like a 5% 10% chance rain uh we woke up and it was like a 100% chance of rain like I'm not saying that changes anything but anyways it got canceled they weren't gonna do it my my daughter didn't want to go on on it anyway and then I watched this film and I was like I know Ricky Nelson like I know he's a famous musician like what happened to him this guy was in a plane with his band there was nine people two pilots and seven him and six other people seven people back part of the plane and

36:53something caught on fire in the plane the plane crashes and the two pilots are the only people that survived like all seven people in the back of the plane including Ricky Nelson died um and like I guess they they said like they found all of the bodies of these seven folks like right by the front door to get into the cockpit because they were literally like the back of the plane was on fire and they were trying to get to safety and like the pilots either didn't know or didn't open the doors or didn't do something and like the two pilots survived and nobody else did so like he he dies in his 40s um but he was I know they said when they when they put him in this film that like it immediately like added two million dollars to the box office I don't know that's like substantiated by anything but that was like what some some quote that one of the guys said um so he was definitely like the heart throb star you know kind of in the eye of like building his uh career and stuff like that so I get why he's in here I did take me a back because I recognize

37:53his name and I recognize Dean Martin's name for some reason I didn't put two and two together that that we have two singers even though I recognize both of them I was just like in the movie and I was like watching it until they start doing that sequence and I'm like oh yeah that makes total sense because they're both legit singers like yeah I guess this makes sense but do you know who they were actually going to cast in this role before Ricky Nelson? What uh no no second Dean Martin's part was going to be the guy from the river yes I think wasn't um wasn't it going to be Elvis it was not the person they were trying to get it to be Elvis can you picture that? I cannot picture that like John Wayne Dean Martin and Elvis I don't think that works the same oh my dad used to watch the Elvis movies all the time so I know like he had like Elvis but that's just I feel like that's like a whole different persona being added to the mix then like I feel like Rick Nelson can a little bit more like kind of fade into the background that time I get I can see Elvis I can see Elvis and Dean Martin hanging out I don't know I feel like Elvis

38:54and John Wayne would not get along like they seem like I don't know maybe but they seem very different I could have seen the guy from Red River playing the Ricky Nelson role I know he was a rumor to be the Dean Martin role first but I could have seen him doing the Ricky Nelson role yeah I might have been a bit maybe different age at that point yeah I might have been a different age at that point but as we saw him in Red River I totally could have seen that um but yeah I think it was fun like it's tragic backstory with him obviously with Ricky Nelson but I thought I could see like why he was the the heartthrob that he was and they did definitely portray him as a almost flawless so that was an interesting choice I guess when it came to that I'm curious Dan though I know we talked about like saying that we hadn't talked about Colorado yet and now we've covered basically all the folks like Stumpy Feathers Colorado dude I love that Dean Martin's just that just dude like anyways one thing we didn't talk about though and is the

39:56quote unquote villains in this film I don't know why I said quote unquote but the villains in this film I was curious on your take because one thing that I really appreciated uh of this one that I could see other people maybe saying that it was a bad thing because I don't think you're going to remember this villain like I don't either one of them their brothers I don't think you're putting either one of them on like the the top villains in in western film history or anything like that but I almost preferred that we didn't get this like cartoon like dick dastardly villain that's going to like keep doing things to remind you how evil he is and like keep making it like even work like we got that a little bit with the remake of which one was it um I can't forget you are making oh he's attempting to give me a yeah yeah we kind of get that where they like keep doing stuff where you're like oh now he's like even worse than he was before and I was really evil yeah and like stuff like that like this guy's somewhat just like your standard bad guy that's just doing things that are

40:58somewhat believable like he doesn't come across as like more capable than he should be he doesn't come across as like a caricature so even though he's not super memorable I kind of enjoyed that he just was what he was and wasn't they didn't try to make more of him I don't know what was your take on the the villains in this story yeah I think that was the right move because this isn't like a story about a villain it's a story about a situation and they're there but they're they're not necessarily the point of the story it's about you're you have this mission you have this illuminating threat that really anyone is a villain because you don't know who's on your side most people aren't and you have someone's there that you that way you have a character but they're not necessarily the focal point it's more than thought the idea of them which I think is completely fine I think that's you know the idea here is obviously you're putting the focus on the characters that are your heroes threat that they're facing and not having to go into like a big backstory of like

42:01who he is or like he's the worst person whatever it may be simply it's a simple story they see him kill someone they have to try him for murder and they're trying to get him out that that's I think that was completely fine like you said it it um they're not characters you really remember and I think that's kind of the point in a lot of ways it's I think that's fine for some film but I know some people like live and die on that like how good is a villain and sometimes that's important but in in this case I don't think it necessarily is it's I you know I thinking of something like assault on pre-sick 13 which I think takes a lot from this you know other movies like that where it's just it's the idea of the impossible situation you have people stuck in a room and they and they have to survive and it's just it's this threat that's coming at them and I think that works so I had no issue with it okay um I also was wondering like the last thing I had in my notes that I wanted to ask you specifically about I know that there's a lot of singing and a lot of conversation and

43:04this that and the other especially as we move throughout the film at the beginning of the film though there's a lot of visual storytelling like there's a long opening with virtually you know dialogue that still somewhat tells you almost everything you need to know and I thought it was pretty impressive like how much Howard Hawks was able to communicate in the first third of this film without any exposition or without like explaining it to you like you understand dudes dealing with some alcoholism his humiliation you get a feel for his relationship with chance you see the murder you understand the conflict that's about to like basically be the central point of the movie so what was your take on on some of the visual storytelling that this film was able to do especially in the beginning I think in the beginning scene you you're I agree I think that's it's a strong opening like you mentioned just the way like Dean Martin is walking and he just he seems out of place in it but also in a very familiar location throwing the money in the in

44:09this bit thing and like you see just like him the desperation there then the way he sees John Wayne and they're like they're like they're unspoken reaction towards one another and then when he actually gets the opportunity to step up and he actually you know comes through so I do think that opening scene works well I think the one element where visually I struggled a bit was I don't think I ever fully understood the logistics of this town in some ways agree because like so their big plan is they stop everyone that comes in and take their guns but like they can't just be one road right like or like it like that has to be multiple locations in order to you know in order for that to work so and there's a lot of times that all all of them are in the jail so like who's man yeah exact that's the other thing it's like they're in there and like they just keep them like because they seem like they were just keeping the guns there they weren't bringing them into the jail

45:11and they're you mentioned they're not always so like that like that is where I felt like understanding logistics of the town was a little confusing and then at the end we get like a whole new part of the town where the the the whole warehouse thing is right so that's the one area where I felt like I had a little bit of trouble and understanding like it's interesting because you definitely feel like it feels lived in and then it feels not lived in it feels lived in because you're with the characters and you feel like you're a part of it and you they're doing real things that you would expect for real people to do if they're hanging out or if they're doing the things that are having to be done in this film like I mean at one point somebody's taken a bath at another point like like they're they're doing their song their concert they're doing different things that like just all that they're arguing and giving people the rough time like guys would when they're they're together and you know kind of razzin on each other like all of that feels lived in but what doesn't feel

46:12lived in is the town itself because you get no feel for what size the town is where things are located amongst each other you don't get any like not that you have to have like the big great landscapes and and Western like visuals and stuff like that but you also don't get that so it's like you don't get that you don't know what like this town's like an amoeba like you don't know what what the formation is or anything like that so it's like it's a weird dichotomy where like I feel like I lived in the town with them but I can't describe the town to anybody yeah I was there but I don't know what it looked like so I don't it's like lived in but not lived in or you know you know we get some side characters here in there like the car those and like I think he comes in and I didn't know that he gets like he gets a nice moment at the end when he's actually part of the guy I was really worried they were going to kill him to be honest like don't care cook car those he's been like for sure they were going to kill somebody yeah I thought I thought that was my guess was potentially dude I really thought I thought Carlos was gonna die or something so I guess

47:14we do have something we do have death but no no me I was saying that but we do it one character yeah we have yeah we have war bonds character pat the one person that offers help you know dying so I guess that does kind of give the idea that anyone can possibly die which also I think maybe should mention groove we've had ward bond and a few him and John Wayne this was our last movie together because they did like 22 movies together this was the last one because he died shortly after this a year two after this of a heart attack so but it's also the last film that John Wayne wore the hat I read some type of trivia bit yeah the hat is worn to wear an in stage coat for searchers which one for stage coach stage coach thanks gochers searchers one in the two yeah yeah I think stage coaching any ward all the way through and this was the last time he wears it and was also kind of interesting too is that this was his return to westerns because he went away from them for a while and I think Howard Hawks did as well and then they were they after seeing a few western thinking they could do a movie like this that was more character focused and then

48:19having John Wayne come back was a big reason why it got made so like I'm not for I'm not a fan of like the way that they especially John Wayne like his commentary on high noon and like the the stance he took with some of the people involved and calling them not American and then this and the other like I'm I'm not a fan of any of that but I am a fan that whatever it inspired them to do this film so like I'm far out of that part of it but like I don't think there was anything on American about the other folks he was trying to yeah without doing a whole lot of heavy research it didn't come across in what little we read and learned about that that that was yeah he just didn't have to do that fun yeah like again same thing like my issue wasn't necessarily the stance and like I like I said ultimately I'm glad I'm watching that I do think there's a lot about it I did like there's just certain elements now when you when you have a character piece like this and two of the character being characters you don't have a huge affinity for it didn't necessarily work as much as I was helping but like I I was majoring in the impress with

49:23Dean Martin and I think he's a good reason just to watch it alone and like you said in Andrew Dickinson does a lot with a little time that she has so and in that last gun like the last final shootout I think was actually where you're fan of the dynamite throwing yeah and I will say like stumpy you didn't like I was like okay at least he did you know he did come through at the end so I'll give him that so there you know I think the reason I liked him or didn't have a problem with him is because I think I've seen that character in so many other old time and television shows from this time yeah that it was just like expected at that point like uh and he he did have a pretty good John Wayne impression I'll give him that so he's like the grandma from Beverly Hillbilly's like almost really he could have been a couple but um it's also interesting to me that like you get in the same film you get stereotypical like the John Wayne you 100% expect and then you get the Dean Martin that you never knew existed like yeah it's a weird thing because we've seen John

50:26Wayne act against a stereotype in some of these other films and then this one's like nope this is exactly like what he's known for and like what I picture in my head this is nothing what I picture in my head when I think about Dean Martin and it like made me way more interested in him as a person and actor than I was before and I was like wait a second there's a whole nother like being Martin that I didn't know existed uh yeah and he he does another western too with John Wayne it's like he has like a little bit of a western block and then he has like some like the comedy stuff obviously and then he has like that whole like uh um not James Bondish but like that kind of like noir type of block I found when I was doing my my research last night uh but yeah I'm definitely gonna have to check out some more Dean Martin I always was a fan of his music and like obviously growing up like the rap pack is obviously like always got a cool essence to it you're always like oh you know that would have been fun to be around or whatever so like I was always like somewhat of a fan of Dean Martin I think I even like preferred him over Frank's match right away but like

51:26I didn't know much about him outside of his his music and stuff like that so yeah check out more of his films like I said my mom was a huge fan of like the Jerry Lewis and Dean Martin comedy so I saw a lot of those and like that's like yeah and the other other movies the sons the sons of Katie Elder and he played the very similar I almost I almost watched that it was either watch that which I knew I wasn't gonna get through or watch this celebrity rose when I could get through uh I will I would say it's a definitely I have seen that uh and uh but I completely forgot about it and he plays a similar character in a way I don't think it's as uh he's not fully us broken but it's a good watch I don't think it's I would say it's not even even though I have my issues with Rio Bravo it's not as good as Rio Bravo but it has a lot of cool elements about it and they remain that movie which I didn't realize that you know that movie four brothers with like Mark Walper so it's actually that movie is a remake of the sons of Katie Elder which I had no idea that was the case until I think the sons of Katie Elder must have

52:28been something my parents watch at some point because that title sounds super familiar to me even though I know I haven't seen it but yeah I think it's I would you know give it a shot because I think you would probably definitely enjoy I mean I'm gonna have to start watching police woman or whatever this show was just to see you can say you know people make one of the TV shows today but like there's also like that like uh why not all right well she's a woman she's in the police that's police woman there we go and we know we don't have a lot we can't advertise online and so like that that doesn't exist we just have to make it real clear to everybody what this is going to be about so I had a yeah I had a lot of fun with this one day and like I'm like I really think for sure it might be one of the most rewatchable ones just because like the only thing that takes away from its rewatchability is is it is long yeah I I never really felt the length because I was just thoroughly entertained with it I could see why some people wouldn't rewatch the two hour and 20 minute film but like I did have a lot of fun with just like the watching Deep Martin watch in

53:30the chemistry between the characters listening to the music and I'm singing like I thought it was it was just fun seeing these for all intense and purposes like legit really good actors and singers like just do their thing like Angie Dickinson's legit like she has a very long career we know John Wayne's iconic we know Dean Martin's like one of the most famous people of that generation Ricky Nelson was like a very popular star that obviously his life got cut short but like he had that you know like all of these people were very like good at what they were doing and it's like it's almost like oceans 11 before it's oceans 11 but it's in the Western like it's just put a bunch of like really well-known people together and see how it works and I and I thought it worked well so I had a lot of fun with this one that's awesome yeah that's really to hear and then now it's gonna be curious to see because it's gonna be a very shift we've been obviously have a different person doing music but next week we'll be talking about Shane and I think I believe that's one you haven't seen before if I'm not mistaken correct yes once again a a blind spot for

54:32me for sure and I have seen Shane but it's been 15 16 years so it's basically a first time watch because I'll be honest I don't only thing I remember about Shane is the end only because like I saw the end like like on like a a fi like best endings list or something like that so I knew the ending before you've ever watched it so because it has a very like famous ending but so just a heads up if you're you know researching it just know that you might get spoiled so I won't I'll stay away from that I do know that Jack palences in this and for some reason I feel like that somebody that I've seen in a bunch of stuff but he was what's what's called um is a city slickers is that yes yes that's what I remember him from he had to be in city slickers right yes he was in city he was in city slickers and as curly I guess and then also we're seeing a return of somebody else from three ten to Yuma van heflin who was in three ten the star of three ten to Yuma

55:38he is in chain as well I don't know what character he plays he doesn't play a chain I know that much but and Jean jean Arthur haven't we seen her in something uh probably only angels have wings Dan we didn't do that for the we didn't do that for the uh oh yeah yeah but we both have seen that film so she is uh was one of the the the female lead I think in only angels have wings okay that makes sense I don't it's like I don't think she's been in any westerns but we have seen her in other films so there you go and she's in mr smith goes to washington which is another classic favorite of mine and we've seen a few um the director George Stevens why is his name sounding familiar as well it's two first names and it's oh he didn't I guess everything gets connected once you've seen fifty carry grant films Dan uh he did he did a carry grant film called gunga dine okay which is when I have not seen if I remember remember remember incorrectly you were not a huge fan of that one so no that was that the I think that was my if it wasn't my bottom one it was in the bottom three or four

56:42yeah but it's also done giant which is it was a big uh well regarded which is I have was on my glycethaeim the classic James Dean movie so okay see perfect so I'm interested I'm gonna stick away from the research I don't want the ending in spoil for me so I will just uh avoid that at all cost but if you're interested to continue going down this west western retrospective we will be covering Shane next and then that's the last of our uh what we should have named uh Demetri Tiamkin uh classic block and what do we do after Shane where what kind of block are we covering after that thank you for after after Shane we're gonna we visit this idea probably have this same yeah after Shane that's equal uh we're gonna go into revisionist westerns our revision revisionist west wow that's harder to say than I thought it would be revisionist western block uh and the first out of that will be oxbow it incident was do some other classic like butch Cassidy the wild bunch which is when I have not seen actually a good amount of the ones we'll get into I have not

57:43seen uh but and then some newer films that probably are newest the harder they fall which is from 2021 that's how it's like you know that we're gonna expand a lot of time and then of course unforgiven probably the most famous of the revisionist ones but we'll kick it off with the oxbow incident which is another one on my uh have not seen less so looking forward to that one absolutely so those are the things that you can be looking forward to as we go through this western retrospective I know it feels like we've done a lot of films but uh just to keep everybody in the loop Dan I think if uh my count is right we're we're just about at the halfway point so we add more so that's always the possibility like we're about halfway through so yeah uh but we got some more modern stuff coming up so if people are more you know fans of some of the more modern stuff there is quite a few that are from the the 90s and and beyond that we still have on the yeah and some different takes on westerns because we're gonna be doing some foreign westerns some neo westerns which are like some of the more modern takes as mentioned and then if you're not if you're getting sick of westerns you can check out

58:45our other episodes which we're going through the planet of the yapes films although going through those some of them are very western related as well so we're trying but we're getting into the counter program as we thought that was but as the more we get into it you know maybe you know the the later into the franchise it gets a bit more updated and science fictiony so yeah so we uh we're definitely open to hear any of your feedback comments or whatever so you can always reach out to us through the different social media especially facebook with uh you can search out the cinemagique film podcast and or cinemagique movie podcast you do something like that you have probably stumbled across as Dan puts some like very clever post on there for the the website some quizzes and different little games so you can follow it was there and then you can also interact with us and let us know what you're thinking about these two retrospectives we'd love to hear it and interact with you on there so that does it for this episode tune in next time for another chance to listen to more of the cinemagiques

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