We Do It All - Until We Can’t w/ Burnout Expert Neha Sangwan

0:00Welcome. I'm Kevin Miller. I have conversations with people that help us make better meaning of our lives. In this episode, we do it all until we can't. I once argued with the leader of a SoulCare Institute who said you can't live in the white water all the time. You must have some time of calm waters in order to live sustainably. I literally told him I was strengthening and equipping myself to endure being in the white water all the time. And I really believed it. And I did it until I couldn't. And then it took multiple episodes for me of pretty acute burnout to finally let go of the pace I was trying to sustain. A pace that I now recognize was more about feeding my own insecure identity than anything else. That and realizing honestly that I wasn't actually God and the world and everyone in it didn't actually rely on me for their existence.

1:03I feel there are a lot of angles and levels of burnout and my guest today is an expert in some aspects of this to a significant degree. Dr. Neha Songwon. She had her own epic story of burnout as a doctor juggling 18 critically. Patients per day and barely surviving 36 hour shifts fueled by sugar and caffeine. This is in her early 30s and she did it. Well, or successfully until she couldn't. And of course everybody applaud that until you finally burn out and she realized something had to give. So she used her own medical and scientific background to really look at it and jump start a journey of renewal and started then a mission of helping people avoid burnout. And really understand it and it's not simply about slowing down necessarily. I mean she and I still we enjoy high production. But we want to be sustainable. So now's book is titled powered by me from burnout to fully charged at work and in life.

2:10And this is one of the earlier messages for me on my own path. And I didn't avoid burnout, but this is part of what helped me start my recovery and getting out of that type of a lifestyle. Honestly, you can find Neha and it's in EHA. It's her first name at intuitive intelligence ink.com. So coming out is my discussion with Dr. Neha song one and us talking about burnout and just a candid look at the concepts what it does to us, what causes it, how to avoid it. I think you're getting a lot of value here. Shopify is my go to for starting a business that selling something online the Shopify platform just instills trust in potential buyers. You can sort of free trial today at Shopify.com slash Kevin get ready to hear that's Shopify.com slash Kevin.

3:19On September 10. I've waited such a long time for this. She has. Prepare to be bewitched. Yeah, everyone we love dies. It's not great. Sandra Bullock years the thing about magic. It won't be silenced. Nicole Kidman. Everything's going to be okay. Maybe it's going to be okay. Just like it was when we had to bury a corpse under a bus. The practical magic to the PD 13 maybe an appropriate for children under 13 only in theaters September 10. Neha, thanks for being here. What an honor. So glad to be with you, Kevin. I am glad to be with you because as with any topic I have on the show. I've got you here because I got questions. Is this something that I mean literally so I have dealt with burnout. I have experienced burnout and I'm wary of it. I think I have some insight. But as I read your book just like with every guest I have on the show, I start reading. And I go, okay, I'm there's some stuff that I'm missing.

4:19And so here's where I want to start off. This is interesting to me. Dr. Rob, I'm not doctor, a rabbi lap and rabbi lap and he's author of a bunch of books. And he was once asked what the opposite of depression was. And we often think of happiness and the answer he gives is no. The opposite of depression is purpose having purpose. It was interesting as I read your research on burnout. And I kind of got the same feeling like what's the opposite of burnout. I'll pose that to you, but to agree I thought it feels like that too. As well as purpose is really having in what I would say an authentic drive being an alignment. Give me your thoughts on that. So yes, I think I think it has something to do with it. I don't think it's that simple. Fair enough. Okay. So, so let me let me just start with there's a difference between burnout and depression.

5:20Okay. So the best way I and this is debated a lot, but I'm just going to give you the way that I think about it as a doctor. Please. Over the last 20 plus years, you know, treating both of those, what I can say is they sometimes overlap, but they are not the same. Depression is an energy more of helplessness, hopelessness. Oftentimes of trauma feels more like a quick sand kind of like I'm sinking and this is this is really hard. And I really, you know, at a point where I'm kind of surrendering, whereas burnout is a different kind of energy. It's almost like you see all those match sticks like you're on fire until you burn out. There's like a tension with burnout. There's there's something that you're trying to change a system, the healthcare system, the whatever the system is, the government, whatever, whatever you're passionate about and engaged in or trying to make impact.

6:26And so there's a tenseness in the muscles. There's an energy. It's been going on for quite a while. And there is a feeling of sometimes now that can go through depression where you feel defeated. You feel helpless, powerless and it can go to full burnout. So it's almost like burnout kind of the way I think of it can go through the path of depression. At the end, near the end of it, whereas depression can happen on that soul and there can be a breakup, a trauma like something can happen. And in a short period of time, depression is a way that someone feels when there's unhilled wounds or, you know, sometimes it's chemical, sometimes it's physical as well. So depression. So you want to you want to kind of pull those apart a little bit. Yeah. No, I got a question for you. I hadn't thought about it till now. But as you're talking about depression, you said hopelessness, helplessness. And I thought kind of a lack of a lack of control.

7:29It over on the burnout side from my own standpoint, I really reached it by a feeling of too much control. Is that fair? Right. It's like that. It's like attention. It's it's a very different energy. Yeah. Yeah. And then you burn your own physiology out in the end. And then it can go right down the slippery slope where you do feel depressed on that path to come. It's like a great exhaustion and burnout. You can go through depression, but it doesn't always have to. I've been a lifetime entrepreneur and I've walked with thousands of people who have started a business. Whether full time or on the side, I usually did it for what I'd call lifestyle reasons. I wanted to own and run my own time. And then I also had a product or service that I uniquely wanted to offer to the world. Whatever your reason, there are tools today that make it so much easier than back when I first started Shopify is one of those.

8:31It's incredibly easy user friendly and you can get your business idea online and ready to take money really quickly. They've got templates to fit your website or you can do as I've done and just use them for the entire website and selling platform. And I put a lot of trust in Shopify for just helping people through the process, not abandoning the shopping cart and actually going through till they submit their money to you. And I think that's why millions of businesses worldwide do look at Shopify as the leader in online selling platform. So if you're ready to hear the of your first sale today, head over to Shopify.com slash Kevin to start your free trial today. It's shopify.com slash Kevin and again, you'll get a free trial shopify.com slash Kevin. On September 10th, I've waited such a long time for this. She has prepare to be bewitched.

9:33The own sisters. Yeah, everyone we love does. It's not great. It's in their bio. Sandra Bullock years the thing about magic. It won't be silenced. Nicole Kidman. Everything is going to be okay. It isn't be okay. Just like it was when we had to bury a corpse under a rosy. The same person. The practical magic to the PD 13 maybe an appropriate for children under 13 only a theater September 10th. Honey, what are you listening to mom? Your team might not share everything with you, but teens share everything with each other and certain everyday behaviors like sharing food, drinks or kisses. Could mean sharing bacteria that can cause meningococcal disease known as meningitis. Although meningitis is uncommon about one in 10 who develop it will die. Ask your teen's doctor about missing meningitis vaccinations. Learn more at meningitis.com. Vaccination may not protect all recipients sponsored by GSK. Hey, I feel like that's what comes on the other side of it is that I had my own experience. Neha was Yeah, kind of a feeling of over control and then burning out and then realizing, okay, wait, I'm not limitless.

10:40I'm not super. I'm not a superman. I'm not God. I can't control. I can't fix everything. But on the other side of that, you know, it felt depressed because I don't know who I am. This is my identity is Captain America here and without that, if I set that down and go, okay, realistically, Kevin, you're just you just to do it. Well, gosh, that's been my identity. I don't really know how to so yeah, it feels like that's what's on the other. I guess is that the risk and on the other side of burnout is likely depression or depressed state. Is that then or you know, when I burdo I was literally high function 18 patients. I'm in the hospital taking everything and all of a sudden I start saying asking the same question over and over again to the nurse. Yeah, and I went straight to ineffectiveness, but I was at depressed. I was moving until my body literally shut down on me. Yeah, so what I will tell you is how people get to burnout, which is really a loss of a net drain of energy,

11:44but it will get into a little bit more how to define it, but how they get there as as unique as their fingerprint. Because it's a series of their own choices. It's biology. It's their emotions. It's their relationships, their connections. It is the environment in which they work. It is the system in which they are a part of it is how they grew up and where their resourcefulness comes in. The beliefs they have right. So you can see there's a lot of factors where people get to burn out in different ways. And the really important thing that I hope you and I can do is really kind of demystify it. Yeah, personalize it for the people listening and then give them the powerful and practical tools to heal. Okay, I appreciate you saying that because yeah, I'm going to ask you something now that may not be the full umbrella, but an aspect of it that I experienced. And it's back to that control issue because a part of this part of what I struggled with in regards to this feeling of control and my own propensity was that kind of stepping back.

12:56Kind of what I said, the Superman complex, God complex, whatever, you know, that I fix everything. I have no limits. I have no excuses. And that is a lot of what led me to burn out though. There are a lot of other things too, as I'm learning as I read your book. With that part of it. And now I'm a father to a lot of kids and have a big family. And I also step back and questioned. Not really even sure how to say this now my control or my importance, you know, because there was a little bit of me have something like a really is the world really going to implode if I don't take care of everything. If I don't step up everything, if I'm not, if I'm not available for everything and I deal with this constantly because again, I have a lot of kids. So you know, I'm here prepping for the show and I get a call from a kid. And the car won't start and whatever. And my propensity is to drop everything and I go, you know what? I know better. They'll figure it out. They'll, but the world's not going to die is that is that how do you how much do you find that coming in where it's a I don't want to minimize anybody and minimize what they're doing and the care for other people and whatnot.

14:02But again, I saw I've come from my own experience. There was a bit of questioning about my gosh is my over. Overvalued and sounds so bad. But am I exaggerating the importance of me doing everything. Hmm. Okay. So there's a couple aspects and in your question. So the first one is people listening. It shows up in different flavors and different ways. So how we relate to control and change. Kind of depends. I'll break it up into four different kinds of work styles. So people can maybe resonate with which one sounds a more like them. One of them is the doer. The doer is the person who gets their highs off checking things off their to do list. You know, adrenaline rush in in the accomplishment. That person moves pretty quickly. They are they have a motto about similar to Nike's just do it. They are somebody who you would find at the gym like on a treadmill.

15:09Listening to a podcast while they're reading the paper like it's all getting to done. And this person really is valued on a team because they're on time and on or under budget. And that's the person that we're like, yeah, give it to Kevin because he's going to get it to done. Now, here's the difficult part for the doer. They don't like vulnerability. They don't like emotions. They don't like anything messy. They don't like anything that would slow down being fully in control of exactly what's happening. Because that's how they assure that they get their self worth because they are on time and on under budget now. Yeah, thanks for stepping on my toes. We keep going. And there's this experience of avoiding conflict in order avoiding conflicts. Sometimes not avoiding conflict as much as avoiding emotions.

16:12And sometimes they create conflict because if you are in their way, they're getting from point A to point B. If they said they were doing it in three days, they're doing it in three days, you're in their way, they're going to run you right over. So if they were a cover, I would make them a hammer. They're like, they're going to get from point A to point B no matter what. Okay. That person is very high on the control route. Now, the second one is the thinkers. The thinkers, their currency is details, numbers, complex problem solving. They're very, they move slower. Their motto is do it once and do it right. And they are the ones that when things are really hard and something needs to be unnoted, they walk in when everyone else is walking out. So huge benefit there. If they're at the gym, they're the ones who care not only about whether you know we're doing upper body or lower body today in the gym. But in what order we will do it matters as much as what we're doing.

17:13So if they get to a machine and somebody is on the machine that would be next, they'll wait. And that makes the doers crazy. Fright, what do you mean? We could get two more things done. Why are we waiting? Like, no, no, no. So when you start to think about that work style, behavioral style, what would cause them a lot of strife would be looking foolish, making a mistake, not getting it right. So they will slow down, they will methodically go through things, take steps sometimes they're late. And that makes the doers crazy. We said we're going to have the sun by Friday at four o'clock. It's 350. Where is it? Right. So there's there's the clashing here, but you can also see how in these two value each other. Boy, you're going to get it done on time and under budget and you're going to do it once and you're going to get it right. So just paying attention, the control now for the thinker is not so much in time and deadline.

18:18It's in controlling to make sure that something is correct. So they will slow down to make that happen. So it's about what you're controlling for. Are you controlling to avoid any emotion, any masts going on here? Are you controlling because you want to make sure something's corrected double checked? This is also a perfectionism can come in if your focus is really worrying about what other people think of you. So you're starting to see that what people are controlling for can change depending on their style. So the third one is the seer. The seer's currency is innovation, novelty possibilities. They're the brainstormers. This is Silicon Valley. This is the all the dreamers and entrepreneurs. Now they move fast. They're whiteboarding it. They're coming up with that. What about this? What about this? All of this? So they move quickly and their model would be more like if you can dream it, you can do it. All Disney. Anything is possible.

19:22Now they like aesthetics. They typically have like a cool piece of bling like cool socks. Maybe a cool watch. If you're not paying attention, you wouldn't know. But boy, they differentiate themselves slightly from other people. So they got that little piece of bling going on. They're often also the life of the party. And at the gym, oh, you won't find them at a traditional gym. They'd be like on a latest carbon fiber bike blazing trails that somebody else will ride on someday. And what they're most afraid of is feeling trapped. So they they commitment is a problem for them sometimes because they like all those possibilities and the openness and the freedom. And so you start to realize that control for them is about actually taking one of those big ideas and deciding which one to go to execute.

20:24They don't like that. They like the possibilities. But what they don't realize is that's not actually control in a sense of losing freedom. That's an idea that you're taking out of the air and turning into reality. And if it doesn't work, you get to do another one. Right? But they don't feel that way to them. That control is about leaving things open. So they don't want to feel trapped. And the last one is the feelers. And this comes back to what you were saying, which is the currency is relationship. It is about connection to other people. And their motto is if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. And they know it's okay to go slower because if you go it's sometimes it takes time to build a solid relationship. And they're willing to put the effort in. And by the way, I should give you I should give you the cars. Let me back up the thinker who was the problem solver real methodical that I gave that the Prius because they've thought about the impact on the environment, the carpool lane, the price point, you know, all of it.

21:36The car for the seer is our red Tesla cyber truck because guess what? It doesn't come in red. That's a custom paid job. Right? So they they have to have the cutting edge forward thinking now we're on the feelers and the feelers who care about, you know, their currency is people and relationships. How do you know them at the gym? Well, you know them because they're not sweating. They're socializing. So you know who the who the feelers are. Now what car would they be? Well, they be a mini van because it doesn't matter how we get there as long as we all get there together. But what's their greatest fear? Oh, their greatest fears of being rejected from the pack. And so what are they going to be controlling for? They're going to be saving the world. They are going to be making sure nobody is without anything that they could possibly provide. And so the feelers can often go into a space of overgiving and forgetting to take care of themselves because it comes so naturally to take care of others and they get their joy there. And they don't want to feel rejected or that they've ever disappointed somebody else.

22:55So when we talk about control, when we talk about change, to me, it's a deeper question, which is who are you? Are you a doer, thinker, seeer, feeler? Are you a combination? I'm a seeer, feeler. So I don't like to be trapped and I'm overgiving, you know, to others. And so my where control and change come in as a challenge for me, it's to take care of myself and put myself first as I am willing to think about the possibilities, but then choose one and commit to making it real. And then I become a stronger version of me. I've been a lifetime entrepreneur and I've walked with thousands of people who have started a business whether full time around the side. I usually did it for what I'd call lifestyle reasons. I wanted to own and run my own time. And then I also had a product or service that I uniquely wanted to offer to the world. Whatever your reason, there are tools today that make it so much easier than back when I first started.

24:03Shopify is one of those it's incredibly easy user friendly and you can get your business idea online and ready to take money really quickly. They've got templates to fit your website or you can do as I've done and just use them for the entire website and selling platform. And I put a lot of trust in Shopify for just helping people through the process, not abandoning the shopping cart and actually going through till they submit their money to you. And I think that's why millions of businesses worldwide do look at Shopify as the leader in online selling platform. So if you're ready to hear the of your first sale today, head over to Shopify.com slash Kevin to start your free trial today. It's Shopify.com slash Kevin and again, you'll get a free trial Shopify.com slash Kevin.

25:18Okay, maybe it's gonna be okay, just like it was when we had to bury a corpse under a roast bush. The same person. Honey, what are you listening to mom? Your team might not share everything with you, but teens share everything with each other and certain everyday behaviors like sharing food, drinks or kisses could mean sharing bacteria that can cause meningococcal disease known as meningitis, although meningitis is uncommon about one in 10 who develop it will die. Ask your teen's doctor about missing meningitis vaccinations. Learn more at meningitis.com. Vaccination may not protect all recipients sponsored by GSK. Okay, thank you so much. This is incredibly enlightening. Yeah, I'm looking at I'm a seer. I mean, right at the bad. It's I'm a seer doer. Where is where I go and now of course I'm thinking about burn out and if I am in how would you say that then in regards to this if you are in a place where you're not able to be authentic to these to where you are, you're gonna burn out slash also if you're just doing it too much.

26:31So play with that with me with with how that relates to burn out. Oh, yeah. So what is the doer going to do the doer is going to have endless to do less. It's going to be so focused on that. They're going to be avoiding any emotions, any vulnerability because they don't want to deal with that. So the relationships are going to start falling apart too much too much doing doing doing and the people who want to connect to them is going to say you're never around. You don't think me important. You're and all of a sudden this doer who thinks that they're doing to give to the family to their community to the relationship is going to think it's so unfair that all the effort that they're putting forth. They're not getting the quality. I raise in my hand. Yeah, what? What do I mean here again, you're nailing me here. I'm like, I'm going to I want to interject though a question that in your role. This is where your book started off with in your role as a doctor dealing with and I assume you're in the ER at that point, your ER doc.

27:35You were that is a doer role by proxy. Yes. Right. So what I do as a hospitalist is when the the ears kind of like triage. No, people come in and they say like, oh, we can take care of that. This person needs to save for a little while or these people need to come in for sure as soon as they decide someone needs to come in. They call me. I come down to the ER and I admit that patient and carry them throughout their hospital stay. So that's a hospitalist. So that's what I was. So yes, I was in the ER, but I would basically take the people who were going to be admitted and carry them through heart attack stroke pneumonia, whatever it is. So it's still very high intensity. And you're right that an ER job is a lot like that to do list and triage figuring out which way do we which way do we send them. Okay. Well, because this is well, no, let me let you keep going though, because you were you were describing burnout from the doer standpoint. Number one, go ahead into the thinker then.

28:38Okay. So let me tell you where you would get your power from the doer. Okay. The doer is going to get their power by learning to connect. They're doing with their emotions, learning to get tasks done while also caring about relationships as they do it. So when they can do both of those things, because here's the thing. If you're a doer and you're getting a ton of things done, but you're destroying your relationships and trust with people along the way, how are you going to create ongoing trust collaboration team culture. You're not going to do it because people are going to feel like you ran over them and they are going to trust you next time. Okay. You know, peace. It's interesting to me on that. And they have so that's me. Okay. So I've done that and there are people that there may be a list of this who have been. Who worked with me and experienced that. And it was not out of care, but just to take you for granted. Look, you're here to get the job done. I treated them like a tool. But what's interesting to me is that's what I have done with me as well.

29:42I'm cool. Not in touch with my emotions. I'm not here to take care of myself. I am treating me. So I to be fair. I didn't treat anybody different than I did myself. We were all just tools that led to burnout. 100% 100% because you aren't tuning in to what you need as you create in the world. And I think a lot of why many of us find ourselves here is we live in a world that has these beliefs. These collective beliefs alike. Faster is better. Do more with less. Profit over people. Success requires struggle. We've got a lot of these beliefs. And we treat them as if they're true. Now here's the catch. Our need for belonging is as strong as our need biologically for sleep and water and all of these things. And so we want to belong to the world that we've all co created. But really what we've done is we've taken all of our collective minds and decided that speeding up the external world is what is valuable.

30:48And I think we've gotten to the point where we've realized what we've created collectively together in the outside world doesn't actually jive with our own biology. And isn't that hilarious that we're the ones who've created this. And so what I've decided is maybe it's not that faster is better. Maybe it's that together is faster. Meaning not my mind alone overriding my body saying bladder. It's not time to go to the bathroom. What are you doing now? Oh, stomach. It's not time to be hungry. What do you do? Oh, heart. I don't feel I just do. That's the mind out of sync with the body heart and soul. It's doing its own thing. It's almost like the mind has become the CEO of the boardroom of mayha ink. And it's time to have a vote, but it's like shut out the body, the heart and the spirit. It's like, nope, you can stay out there. I vote we keep going. I vote we don't go to the bathroom. I vote, you know, and it just like takes over.

31:54And in that space, it kind of goes out of control. And it thinks it's actually in control. But it's not because it loses everything that matters. Can I pull out something then from the book that just kind of this is my show we can go on any rabbit trails who want here. So because I loved it was part of your preface in the book. Yeah, folks, you're listening to this. So many so you're pulling stuff out. We could be here for three hours. You know, go buy the book. The aspect that you just talked about. I'm going to read a couple things out of your book. Sure. Because you talked about hunter gathers. Oh, yeah, where we came from and looking at some of the history here. And you says as we as we have become accustomed to you now and today as opposed to 100 guys and here we are now. As we've become accustomed to using apps programs and AI we've become deaf to our own internal human software. I'm going to skip to another point hunter gathers were one with nature.

32:56And I would say with you know with our own nature we have become one with technology. Okay, that's from your book. I love the preface there really got me thinking about how we were forced as hunter gathers to be aware of ourselves and of our environment to to survive today. We don't I do not have to be aware of jack squat to survive because I'm not really in danger of everything or anything. I've got technology. I've got convenience. I've got also but again the word there that gets me nail is survived. I don't want to just survive. I kind of hear to thrive. So to thrive. You're saying, okay, we need to go back. We need to continue it. And what you just said the whole speed up thing. And again in regards to burnout, I I am really what would be the word I'm I'm concerned with I'm bothered by burden by speed because we just keep speed up and if we look at AI and we look at technology. Everything just speeds up. It doesn't save us anytime. It's that old cliche. You know if our great grandparents had the had the stuff we have today they'd say oh my gosh I could do everything in an hour.

34:04Now the rest of the day free you guys must be just love in life. No, we've just sped up 5,000 times and the next technology and I'm afraid AI is just going to speed things up further and we'll just have more anxiety and more burnout thoughts. So I think that what we need to do is. I have no idea what that was. That was amazing. I just have a light show. No, if I hit something. Fireworks just what apparently what I said was so brilliant that the technology give you fireworks. Okay, keep going. Sorry for that. Don't know what it was. I don't believe any of these things are good or bad so money capitalism technology. They're not good or bad. They are there. It's all depends on the consciousness of the user. Because wow has technology given us the internet and the world's information at our fingertips.

35:06If we use to use it too much we get addicted to being online and caring more about what other people think than what we think money. Money is an exchange of value for services goods my skill set whatever it is. It's a good thing except when people get greedy and have an imbalance of so much for me and we don't care about you. Capitalism, amazing, entrepreneurial, you know all of this but when people are greedy and they use other people to profit for themselves now it becomes a problem. So it's all about too much too little of things. It's about the consciousness of the user. So I want to start there. And what else is that we have to raise what you're doing on this podcast to me is like a vertical ascension. It's like there's people who are on the road. You know I was imagine like being on the 405 freeway in LA where there's like eight lanes and everybody's racing.

36:12And then when you get off like you pull it next to the person you've been like speeding ahead in front of and you pull up at a stoplight and you're like are you kidding. Right you're right there. This is more about what you're doing and equipping people with is about taking a car and not doing that race on a horizontal level. It's about like putting a propeller on top of a car and it literally lifting into a helicopter. You know my dream. Thank you. And so that's what needs to happen. But all of our focus time energy and money is in this unconscious race for faster is better. And I think together is faster together as our body, mind, heart and soul in alignment together moving forward. And you and me together and us with the planet together. So when I say together, I mean it me we world. Does that make sense? It does. It does. The whole speed thing is just and I know we were going through these points of the do or the way that I'm having a hard time getting back there because I want to continue on this thread of burnout.

37:23So on the on what you just said now let's. When we look at burnout, I really like to with any topic hit the common misconception because right now everybody here's burnout and they immediately have a definition and a perspective in their mind that I am concerned is Aaron to to a great degree. And I do want to give credit to Richie Norton who turned me on to this idea a little bit. He said so many people think about burnout as just working too much right you work too much. You get burnout and he said and he said man that some of the people that I know the most joyful successful inspiring people work a lot many work a lot. But they find and I'm going to let you continue this because I you know in an aspect of they do find some what I'm going to call from a drive standpoint there in alignment they know what they want they know why they know what they're doing. We could come back to that aspect. Well you do a purpose they find purpose in that now even there maybe we could still do purpose too much but play with that with the concept of burnout is just you working too much doing too much because everybody's busy so that's going to be burnout.

38:34That doesn't feel like that's the definition for me and that people are getting that wrong. Yeah what do you think let's let's start let's start with the definition of burnout please so the definition of burnout the way it's described in research is a triad. The first leg of the triangle is exhaustion so it's physical mental emotional exhaustion then has to go on for a little while okay it's not this sudden thing like Monday I'm fine and Friday and burned out that's not how it works mother nature is so sophisticated. She has created all these micro adjustments that we make in our physiology we are so smart that when the stress starts building I don't just have half a cup of coffee I say make it a double I have all these ways that I will adjust to the amount of stress that I've got. And so the first leg of the triad of burnout is exhaustion that goes on for a while and it's some point the second leg of the triangle comes in it's this voice that starts silently speaking and it says things like doesn't matter how hard to try it's not going to make a difference.

39:48And it's our own voice that comes in almost imagine it like an undertow as you're walking on the beach you can feel it you might not be able to see it a boy you can feel it. And it's when your own thoughts start to undermine your ability to make progress now because you're starting to slip. When you're in that space there's also something called depersonalization you might be isolated you might be feeling alone lonely. But you can't muster the energy to connect to other people because it just takes too much energy and you don't have it you're too exhausted. So first pillar exhaustion second is cynicism and depersonalization is kind of in that area. And then the third one is ineffectiveness you're just not effective like that day I walked in and asked the nurse four times. Could you please repeat the 40 mil equivalents of IV potassium for the gentleman in 636 she was like doctor sang one are you okay.

40:51And I said it was my first indication I might not be and I said yeah why. She said that's the fourth time and under five minutes you've asked me that same question and I've answered you every time. That's ineffective that was me hitting the wall of burnout so exhaustion cynicism ineffectiveness that's how they define burnout in the research. But it doesn't happen all at once it happens over time so there's three phases that you go through over time the first phase is the alarm phase it's almost like someone's jumping on a treadmill that's going too fast. When when you have to skip a beat your heart jumps your your your little surprised that experience there's times in our lives when we make changes when things happen and we feel like we're on that treadmill. Now we'd be fine if after some time we got off the treadmill except that's not what happens in a world that thinks faster is better.

41:53What happens is we get on that treadmill and we don't really ever get off and in fact we keep turning up the speed a little bit more a little bit more point 1.3.5 and next thing you know we're hitting the second phase which is chronic adaptation so we pass the alarm phase now and now we're we've made the alarm phase away of the life. And we're barely hanging on it we're adding more coping mechanisms you know mine was Mountain Dew and sickers bars I had sugar the sugar caffeine buzz strategy that's how I got through that tough time when my body was saying no and I had to say yes. And now it's chronic adaptation we're barely hanging on bear barely hanging on and I think that's where a lot of the world was right before the pandemic. Because then boom one more thing and people go sliding down the slippery slope of burnout to in effectiveness and now you're in the exhaustion phase and that's really I mean that's when you need time out you often need medications you need professional help.

42:54But it's a long time before we get there and when we get there feels like it happened all of a sudden but it didn't we've just been adjusting over time. Until we've gotten there so burning out is not it's not something to think of as a failure it's literally a wake up call it's a wake up call telling you that all the coping mechanisms all the strategies that you've been using you've outgrown them you've outgrown them it's time to graduate and I think of those strategies. I know whether they're alcohol you know sleep Netflix binging retail therapy you know internet at whatever it is whatever the the thing is that gets you through that experience the chocolate makes everything better strategy. Oh whatever is it's almost like a summer fling that became a bad marriage you know it's like it worked for a little bit it's and then we just kept doing it and it's not working anymore and so it's your wake up call to your true life it's what I say is sometimes it's it's really one of the best things that ever happened to me.

44:07Okay I'm still really from the chocolate makes everything I mean that is. I got in that camp you know when you said I'm going to go back to burn out these three aspects exhaustion and you I think you said it we adjust to the stress I need just second to go talk to about coping that's what we do that's what we're expected to do that's the cultural norm you know that is a doctor we just take all these issues and we normalize them so you're supposed to have. Headaches and in my grades you're supposed to have aches and pages you're supposed to have those and of course we would say well not not really so when I go back to that the body this is the body's natural spots like stress okay that's a natural response do I accept that and then just stay there gosh I'm going to come back to you talking about so at that time. At that time when it started out the book when you reach this burnout stage you went to a therapist and you got prescribed a pro's act.

45:07Yeah there's there's the norm and you know to that degree when you're at an acute level thank God for pharmaceuticals that's what they're at their acute level but I so appreciate the fact so my my best friend is a doc I'm going to look down here because last night this is why this is why I told him I texted him okay as I read that section and now I said I'm doing a show tomorrow with a doc about burnout she was working in the ER she hit the wall she would just psychiatrist who prescribed pro's act and her response later was I'm not sure what's wrong with me but I'm pretty sure it's not a pro's act deficiency. Well I love that because we've been saying that here so you don't even know this my my studio here is in a medical clinic that we go out in a functional medicine clinic and that's the issue that you know if you have high blood pressure and you're about to go go south thank God for high blood pressure medication but then that's the issue that's the issue you don't have high blood pressure because your body has a deficiency of high blood pressure medication there's some. Now that's why that's why text did your statement to have it so great that we just we just accept that as we adjust to or as you said cope to the problem instead of going there's a problem and the body's going hey hi we got anxiety we got stress these are the dashboard lights going off you can duct tape over them you know or bypass them or whatever or we can get down to the bottom and if we're going to deal with burnout that's what you're talking about we've got in and I track

46:34we've got to get to the root cause otherwise we're masking like you said we're medicating we're coping but down here your body is saying something's not this is not sustainable so you're going to medicate or or or or avoid or whatever which is going to have an end to know itself or you're going to correct and of course that's what you're here for is to can we correct avoid slash correct yes. Yes and so my first round of education was as a mechanical and biomedical engineer and what I learned from that experience was if you don't get to the root cause of a problem it's going to cost you a lot of money bandating it and so when we wonder why health care costs are spiraling at 18 and 20% every year how can you expect it to be anything less if we're not getting to the root cause of the stress that causes or exacerbates more than 80% of all illness so I think it's good in the what what traditional medical medicine does well is it takes care of things in the acute phase so if you break your leg you get an accident you break your leg you need thank God you get to go and get it fixed you have a lump of cancer something thank God we can take it out you're having a heart attack so glad

47:58we can help you through that but what but anything chronic you know this through functional medicine anything chronic you have to look at the body in the interconnected systems that it is so road cause cause problem solving at some point we're going to have to do it what you're speaking about is we miss we've tuned out we spoke spoke about how we really care about belonging in the outside world what everybody else thinks ever since we were little we tuned out of our bodies to make sure what made our caregivers laugh and and smile they would pick us up sooner they would feed us quicker they would love us more hug us we from a very young age tuned outward and as soon as we grew up in our family and got to into our teens we shifted that from what did our family want of us to what did our peers want of us that was like what sneakers are cool what clothes are cool who's the in crowd who's popular and how do I have to change to be that

49:03that we went and we got into relationships and started working and it became about what is my employer want of me what does my partner want of me and so everything it's only when we have an experience like burnout a health condition a loss that it jars us enough to say what about me and that's the moment when this is what I hope are the first step to all of this and healing all this runs through this path what is the unique way that your body communicates with you so when you get out of your comfort zone how does your body communicate with you mine is throat constriction and stomach turning whenever I'm speaking or if I haven't spoken my truth right away my throat will constrict and it'll charm me a little bit like oh all right but nobody else knows but me it's an internal signal and my stomach will start turning well what do people do because that feels awkward it's uncomfortable

50:10what they do is can I get another glass of wine please hello can so and and I reach for something to get me out of that discomfort but I take something from outside to try and suit something that's a message of me needing to get back into inner alignment so there's not enough glasses of wine they're going to take care of me not speaking my truth right and so the number one thing that I'd say is burnout happens because we have tuned ourselves out of don't know how to decipher our own body is unique physical signals that it's in communication with us all the time and we have tuned out of that completely the only time we figure it out is when we have crushing chest pain and it stops us right so this is the this is the danger and this is why we miss it at the high blood pressure level at the huh they have a little tightness right here blow pass through blow through

51:13it we got a deadline and we keep going so the body is really polite it knows you're busy it starts with a whisper when you don't pay attention to that it gets a little louder when you don't pay attention like that like at some point it's going to hit you over the head with a two by four and it's going to stop you and burnout is that two by four you just made a great case thank you for the intent of my book what drives you is to look at what to generally drives us is external is the programming that we've had it's the expectations that we've been given or we've we've we've adopted instead of looking internal go know what does really what do I want to drive me but what really does what really inspires me that's unique to me and you just made a great case for that this is like so often happens you we were you and I were talking about book authoring before that where you're here on here in New Mexico can I go rewrite the book and I had that but you're I want to come to that what

52:17is your unique unique way your body communicates with you I do want to I do want to real quick though point to your book because as people are listening to this we're not here just talk about burnout because it's a fun topic the point is to avoid it or to right now to to get to get to get out of it if you're if you're already there to how do you do order to start by recognizing it yeah start by knowing what it is and then assessing where are you on the spectrum from burned out to fully charged because anytime anywhere anybody in their life at any time it would probably be helpful to know where are you on this spectrum okay and then the way you figure it out is by figuring out whether you have a net gain or a net drain of energy yes I love that physical mental emotional social and spiritual level yeah and that's how you figure it out I want I want that on my wearable app so I want somebody to put that on literally to go okay right now what you're doing is a net gain and right now what you're doing is a net draining you got to do both during the day

53:20but if I don't keep those at some kind of equilibrium I'm going to be here drained and gone at the end of the day but I wanted to say to your book they hot that it strikes me now as I've been studying it and going back and forth through that that I need help with the understanding of what burnout is of what the symptoms are and what my unique ones like you probably do that again what is my unique way my body communicates I need to know these things so that I can head it off at the pass in essence and it reminds me somewhat of Brunei Brown's latest book Atlas of the Heart and her effort to help us understand our emotions because to the extent that we understand our emotions is to the extent that we can deal with them so when you come to somebody like me who's emotionally unintelligent that's where I've been trying to grow there I'm trying to increase my understanding in my vernacular so I know what the heck that I actually feel on the side of burnout that's what I find with your message it's help me understand oh like to go back up exhaustion I love this

54:20exhaustion cynicism that was really unique to see that cynicism it's kind of a way of how did you say that a kind of a way of off-offloading that we're not paid attention to so we're getting cynical that that's a sign that's I think that's gonna be that's profound in me I think it's gonna be profound everybody else and ineffectiveness oh my gosh I that even got me to thinking about looking at my days not just overall but today I'm going along and at some point I realize I'm just I'm kind of burnt out on the day and maybe just hey I want to read the read towel you know right now that I am I'm feeling kind of ineffective which is generally when I leave creative mode and if I still have stuff to do then I'm just gonna go to email stuff and the kind of the busy stuff that I can do not super effective take care of the busy stuff yeah but I like knowing okay that's I've hit the end of this day as far as when creative juices and and whatnot but then looking at your three phases the alarm phase the chronic adaptation phase and and what what what I did you I don't know I think we do I I do rail you before you hit the third phase what was

55:24the third phase all the way down you back down you could get exhaustion and you slide down the slippery slope of burnout all the way to ineffectiveness where it just stops you it's powerful so the unique way that your body communicates with you and you said it was your your your voice your your voice tightening so you're it's what I call all of it is the body map okay so each of us has a unique way so for me it's throat constriction and stomach turning for somebody else it could be sweating and flushing for somebody else it might be tightening of their muscles uh shallow breathing for somebody else it could be jaw clenching and headaches so it depends really where on the spectrum how quickly you pick things up or how late can I can I say different for everybody so I was just like I raised it yeah I ended up like this yeah it shoulders up my ears and I and I and I'll send I realize it and I'm going along oh my gosh just let it let it go kind of

56:28meditation yeah that's where I tend to do it though I also want to say that when I am in this place kind of a well go back to you know the chronic adaptation when I'm doing that not dealing with the undercurrent the core as you talked about the foundation it manifests in my sleep I can't it's so it's so even if I can get myself to a point of exhaustion to fall asleep I don't stay asleep and I wake up and if I wake up just to you know use the bathroom or something that my mind it takes off and I'm I'm toast I might as well get up and read or do something like that when I am in that place of well not dealing with it not getting through your cause yes yeah well you know what um let's just talk about sleep for a minute tell me there are people who think that getting things done in their external world and that to do list it's so important that they say things like I'll sleep when I'm dead yes or I'll catch up with sleep on the weekend or sleep like what a waste of time so I think sleep is a waste of time if what you're referring to is what's not getting done on your

57:34external to do list but what's much more important that I don't think people realize is your body has a whole internal to do list that must get done every night when you sleep and there's three really important items on that list when you sleep your body does physical repair both of your muscles and your immune system so if you don't want to get sick please get enough sleep if you've been working out if you've been moving your muscles if things are sore boy physical repair of both your muscles and your immune system are really really important the second thing that happens on the inner to do list when you're sleeping is memory consolidation and integration of everything that you've taken in and learned so that you can actually remember it and the third is emotional processing that someone cut you off you had that huge adrenaline rush you had a

58:38just you know maybe a conflict something went on during the day one of the most important things that happens when you sleep is emotional processing but what it requires for you to sleep is you knowing how to surrender to your subconscious and that's the piece when you say you're a doer and you want control and you're really going going going I could see how once you wake up you're like oh god I have to be I have to start solving that but what's really interesting is if you're somebody who keeps shaving off sleep as where you're going to get more time in your day your body prioritizes emotional processing over memory consolidation and immune system and physical repair so what happens is after a few nights of not sleeping so well or a week of it you get a cold you come down you're sick why are you sick and what's the first thing you want to do when you're sick

59:40sleep so this is all connected it's our emotions are connected to our ability to sleep is connected to our physical well-being and immune function so it's really I think one of the big things that I want you to know is and everyone listening wherever you start improving your energy whether it's on a physical mental emotional social and spiritual level wherever you do it it positively impacts all the others and wherever you're having a drain it's also impacts the others so there's good news and there's bad news way and in what I'm just I wrote down here's burnout that the effort here as we learn from you is to do to it in essence before it does to us because it's going to come around the body is not going to forget body keeps a score and it's going to reconcile this in some

1:00:43way like you I love how you just said that it's going to force what the body needs and that's and that's always worse than that's dealing with it proactively you know I want to come back I find myself interested to come back to where I started asking about the we talked about depression and and and whatnot and purpose and and what I was asked about kind of the opposite when you look at you gave us a definition of burnout what would you say then is the opposite in essence a burnout a vibrant healthy integrated and balanced life integrated that's a great word so I think it I think integrated is huge because I think the reason burnout gets such a bad rap I think the reason why companies think it's a waste of time or money or they're just checking something off it to do less is because when someone thinks that wellness means chocolate chip cookies you know at 9 a.m. on Fridays delivered to the break room or a massage chair on Fridays or you can

1:01:49take an extra mental health day if you'd like those are and then they say look like none of this works I think to solve any complex problem we have to first look at it as me we world so the individual the environment which they're in and the system in which they are a part of me we world okay and within each of those you have to look like I was saying physical mental emotional social spiritual you have to be balanced and you have to be integrated and so the answer is not simple uh the answer is not easy but it is simple when you can break it down and you can figure out what's at the core like some people say Neha haka mutant do financial energy financial energy is people's biggest stress well when I was going through all this and the decades that I've been doing

1:02:50it for myself and others I actually think that yes in the US it's reported that 70% of people 70% of people say their primary stress is financial but when I think of financial stress I realize it goes across all of those arenas so physically there's a numerical amount something we think we need to achieve uh I don't have enough is the thoughts uh or if I have too much what if I lose it and by the way you're not immune you have too much you have too little everybody is worried about money then there's the emotions oh my god I think my self-worth equals my net worth so now people have these emotions of not being enough and you know feeling unworthy and all of this around money socially it becomes a status symbol where did you go to school what car do you drive what neighborhood do you live in all of this opportunity and spiritually um oftentimes

1:03:54actually I would say that would be the self-worth equaling your network um when people really believe that they're feeling the emotion was unworthy but the spiritual belief is somehow that that your literal self is connected to how much money you have or how successful you are and so I believe when you get those in order now you can apply them if we were an oak tree that's the trunk in the roots apply it to the branch of money if you want to if you want to talk about money apply those things heal those things in relation to money in relation to whatever the the issue is right so what I would really say is um it's simple but not always easy fair fair and I want to as I hear you again it's just such a great resonance with this my my perspective on drive

1:04:56is that our drive is authentic and it's healthy and it's true when it's in alignment to use a car term in alignment now the alignment between this is what I want and I know why and I really know why and and I'm in agreement with why that's where I see even with myself the areas of my life where I have I know what I want and I know why and I'm in agreement with it it's working in the areas where things aren't working as well if I look at I think I think this is what I want but why I may not know exactly or I think I know and it's not really what it is so alignment because when I hear you talking about burnout here you mentioned balance in that word integration which again I really like that again back to that concept of oh burnout just guy you're just doing too much that you're saying in essence agreed we could do too much of anything too much of anything you know it could be too much but it's not necessarily doing too much it's doing too much out of alignment

1:05:57yeah so now when you speak about alignment now you're in the spiritual energy section and that's about knowing what you value thank you so that's about what matters most to you there's no wrong answers what matters most to you and in what order do you prioritize them so my top five values are love integrity service beauty and play now under love I have community connection relationships leadership I have all sorts of things that I put under love so you can define these five you know top values in any way that feels right to you there might be subcategories under them and how you define it once I know what I value boy now I can make quick and effective decisions sometimes even without all the data it gives me a lot of confidence let's say let's say some of my values were health family health money in that order and let's say I was traveling and

1:07:06my you know daughter got sick and I had to make a decision do I pay out a pocket right now this seems urgent how you know what did I do if it's family health money I'm like yeah let's do it let's do it because it's more important to me and if it was something urgent of course I would need to assess that I would say yeah we need to take care of this I'm willing to pay so you have to know what you value and in what order you value it because that's how you're aligned because then when you make decisions that align with that value those values and in the priority in which you make them you have them now you feel aligned like yeah it made that decision and I know why when you want something let's say you want to be CEO by the time you're 55 okay when someone says I want

1:08:07to be CEO by the time I'm 65 I don't actually know what they value right they might value power and money they might value sane they might with value making a difference they might value changing an industry to be in alignment with the planet they might want to be in service to their community we don't know so when someone tells you what they want don't assume you know why so then it's about oh this is a desire you have this desire a desire is what do you want and why do you want it because my next question as a coach is always okay Kevin tell me what will being CEO by the time you're 55 what will it give you and now I know whether it's freedom autonomy service money right whatever it is and so alignment comes from my inner knowing of who I am what I value and in what order I prioritize those values I love it it brings me back

1:09:13to your concept which is just so tangible I guess to me they have net gain verse net drain but then it requires me and you said this early on has everything does on this show I think we always on self awareness if I'm not self aware I'm out of the game I've got to be able to go through my day and yeah I've talked about this before set a timer on my watch for every whatever it is 15 minutes hour whatever it just take a pulse take it take a take a step back and go how am I doing what am I doing where am I taking a check in it's like a body check in yeah am I at a net gain right now or a net drain if I'm not aware of that I'm there's there's no hope but that takes me having self-warness which puts us back into the burnout aspect of again it may not be that you're doing too much you're doing too much that is a net drain because everybody's been out there doing something that they were so freaking excited about and they're doing it just about nonstop and it

1:10:16is just nothing but a net gain they cannot get enough no of us with that place all the time but I feel like as time has gone on and my awareness goes on I am able to stay in that place more and more even in my business you know as an entrepreneur to go the more that we can keep this is the team thing more than we can keep Kevin doing what he loves to do yeah happier everybody else if he starts doing something I get called out on this by my business managers my brother as I do don't you get out of there get out there if I start commenting on social media that's not your play round the whole way do what you do because I'm just getting drained by that stay over here as much as I can in that net gain and we've got to alter that so that puts everybody I mean it's hard as you know because if you're if everybody's listening right now and you realize I'm in a in a workplace this just from the day that starts I mean I wake up with a net drain of having to go to work or I'm in a relationship that's just a net drain from from the get go hopefully nobody well some people are going to be there I would imagine a lot of people especially those are listening to the show

1:11:19it's not that way that the day is not a net drain but you're still calling us to audit our day audit our values understanding those and how much of our day is there and if we are adding into the net drain we are headed for Bernhardt the good news is and that's what your message your book is about we can be aware of that and we can we can figure out in what category okay is it physically mentally emotionally socially or spiritually am I having the net gain and the net drain because at different points in your life at different times in your life you'll have a net gain physically and emotionally but maybe a net drain spiritually maybe you're like you know what physically I have all the time in the world I can work out I feel good you know I'm feeling pretty pretty good and you know I love my buddies at the gym where we really have a good thing going socially emotionally physically this is going really great but mentally I don't feel

1:12:23like I'm really progressing in my career and I don't feel connected to purpose and so mentally and spiritually you could be having a net drain and that might be what's pulling you down and so in the experience but then there could be somebody else who's on fire in their career and they're getting all these accolades at mentally they feel really stimulated and spiritually they're really connected to their purpose but here's the kicker they can burn out anyway even if that's the case because socially they're avoiding their relationship at home and so emotionally and socially it's a it's a drain but mentally and spiritually they're like oh but this stuff at work is so exciting and it's innovative and I'm going to throw my whole self into that down you come unbalanced and in the lack of balance you may also find yourself hitting burnout so it's about balance it's about integration it's about all of that and the way that you figure it out

1:13:24is by starting by being able to decipher the subtle more subtle and less subtle signals that come from your body so it's a big yeah it's a big but once you start doing it what I can tell you is each step you take improve everything out so it starts building on it once you learn how to interpret the signals from your body boy that helps you everywhere once you know what you value but now making decisions as easy as you're choosing who your your friends are that you want to be with and the ones you've outgrown or it becomes clear okay do I hear you saying in essence I can't outrun it meaning if I to take one of your examples if I am just loving my work man everything's just I'm killing it everything's great and yet over here I'm dying relationally or or health and wellness either

1:14:28way those are and those are two I've got to be top of the list of common things where we're devoting to work things are going there but over here we got relational carnage or or health and wellness that I can't go so far and have so much great stuff happening over here that I'm going to outrun burnout because those things are ultimately going to sabotage which is why you keep bringing up the word balance am I here and correct that you bet yeah we can't get away from we can't get it's like saying I'm not going to care about my physical health but I'm going to be on fire in my career well your body's the one supporting you yeah and so at some point if you don't say no it will okay you know what some of this I'm eager to talk in our part two on what drives you because we're going to go through some of those things I do want to I'm going to land this though can I just end by giving them the thinker feel a seer whatever and wrap up your control thing or should we leave it okay you can end there but you got to let me do this first all right I want I just want to hit

1:15:30on no as simple as that and no we come to this so often but I want to hit on that we've done series on boundaries we've done a couple of them we did one with Nedger a Glover to Wob we didn't we'll carry coal on boundaries and say no it is still one of the most uncomfortable things for me now and when I looked at that as I was reading your book I was doing again just my own notes that sometimes because when I say no I initially think about it towards people that's the hardest place for me too but I also realized sometimes I need to say no and this is just my own writing I need to say no to the next seems like a good opportunity I just need to say no to it I need to say no to wasting time on you know social media I may need to say no to being soccer coach from my kid it may seem like it's great but right now I need to say no say no to overtime or volunteering or it's interesting one of my kids little their their kiddo had their kiddo my great kid it was a second birthday party and it was all this hubbub around it and I'm also like dude I've had a bunch of kids the second birthday the kid doesn't remember anything they're not gonna read anything past

1:16:35why don't you do something I'm gonna get you a gift I did this for my daughter I'm getting you a gift you go to the spa and you have a second birthday because the kids I gotta re squat why don't you just let that one go it you know playing with it but again this aspect of saying no still feels like it's one of the things we've all heard it everybody on this show has heard it I have heard it and yet and and here you are and you expounded on it in your book on burnout there's got you've got to say and yet it still feels like a cultural killies heal yeah what I what I think people don't realize is ever since we were young we've been making a trade off between do we want to stay attached to the person in front of us that's family or do we want to be authentically ourselves and say what we really need extra little in turn we're back to it again yeah my little internal and the way Gabura Mata talks about it is we choose attachment over authenticity right and I think the most important thing is that every time you say

1:17:41yes to something you're saying no to other things and I think when we say no we don't really think about what we're saying yes to and so if I say no if you say hey Neha can you cover my shift this weekend if I'm gonna say no to you I need to realize what I'm saying yes to I might be saying yes to a really good night's sleep I may you know be saying yes to family time and connection but whatever it is there's a couple different ways that we say no we might say no you want to pay attention one more time just like I told you when someone says that they want something right that CEO at 55 example when someone says they want something it doesn't tell you why they want it and so my know what I'm gonna challenge people to is when you say no I want to know what's inspiring that no is it a frustrated you know a frustrated fearful no is it a no that is about

1:18:51you know I'm just so exhausted like I can't take one more thing on my plate like no no no because I said so that's why no is it a that frustrated no is it a fearful no because something happened to me in the past and I have a reflexive no not that no you can't you can't do that but it's coming from my own fear from the past that has not been resolved so now I'm just saying no is it a protective no because with children we're trying to give them kind of guardrails to only give them the experiences that they can grow but not become traumatized so we want to kind of protect them is it that kind of no or is it an inspired no is it an inspired no a no where you know what you value you know what's most important to you and so when you Kevin offer me something an opportunity

1:19:51a way to help whatever it is what I do is I call this my values filter test I told you my values highest values love integrity service beauty and play yeah okay so something comes to me the first thing I do as I pay attention I'm like does that pass my values filter test if it does the next thing I check in on is is this giving me energy or is this draining me of energy does this scene like something uh that I'd be inspired by or is this something I'm obligated by so the second thing I do is check into does this offer give me or drain me of energy right and I think that's a good place to start because if you start paying attention we all have to sometimes do things that we feel obligated to do sure but how many times you're saying yes when you really mean no please start keeping track because if that's your M.O. you may be in that sealer category where

1:20:52you're just so afraid of being rejected that you're giving up yourself in order to keep that relationship but here you are now you're you're choosing attachment over authenticity and that is not sustainable either so it's not just about no it's about what kind of a no are you saying and do you realize that even when you say yes it means you're saying no to many other things we just don't think about it that way okay that is maybe the best testimony to this or definition of saying no I've heard now honestly because when I hear that say what you're saying yes to something you're saying notice something else and I think right there my conscious mind goes no I know I can do it too I know I can do it too yeah I know I could do it but the dueling would probably sabotage some of my bean I could do it but I'm gonna be bit so I'm not taking that in no count one and I also love you saying if I say no what am I saying yes to and I think I'm very often not aware and that's why

1:21:58it feels so bad if I said you know what honey or you know kiddo or whatever I'm gonna I'm gonna say no because I'm going to say I'm gonna say no to doing that thing so I'm gonna safeguard being bitter to you I want to I want to have an open heart to you and I think I would be bitter to do whatever that is I'm not clear on what the yes is what the benefit I think I think what you would you would really be thinking and saying is I'd love to say yes to spending time with you at the birthday party of our two-year-old grandson or whatever it is and what I know right now is that my body needs rest no and I want to be able to spend the weekend with the family and what that's gonna entail is me saying yes to a good night's sleep and it's great that's great and it's with love that we do it and it's it's the ultimate way of drawing boundaries and I'm not perfect at this and I wrote books on it boy I am learning every day but the ability to draw healthy boundaries

1:23:03and do it with love comes from a place I have found of the clarity of my values the priority in which they land and my awareness of the entire context me other right how is that all playing out and then can I say it with compassion and mean it because sometimes people who who don't say no early enough at some point you say hey could you bring cookies over when you come and they're like no like I don't know who always does it right and it's it's like a thud yeah what that is is somebody has been holding in holding back holding back holding back saying yes when they really met no and now we'll hear it comes you know so it's it's an interesting topic because it's a dance it's beautiful thank you that was that was worth the price of admission for me I thought I've gotten that at many times or okay I want to let you though finish up the segment that you wanted to

1:24:03before we go on to move to the part two sure well you had you had mentioned about being a doer and how change and control how control plays into being a doer yeah and what I talked about was doers like to be in control they like to be the boss actually and if they're not the boss they want the boss to live at least three thousand miles away yes they they like the autonomy and just trust me I'm gonna get it done okay don't don't question the how don't like or manage me just let me go absolutely so in this control um what they do is they're saying so busy that they don't have to feel so what their controlling is no vulnerability full control trust me I'll get the job done and I just want you to be really proud of me that I did it okay and that's how I love you by the way that's like the p-s that nobody writes or says but it's like the unwritten this is my way of loving you okay that I get all these things done for you then there's the thinkers and the thinkers are the

1:25:09ones who solve complex problems they move slower but they want to do it once do it right where they want control is they want you not to rush them they want time they want space they want to be able to think through everything and get it just right so they're controlling time they're right and so they're really uh they want enough time to think through things so when unexpected things happen they start feeling flooded by emotions so that's what they have in common with the doers the doers and the thinkers they don't like emotions they like this and they like hands be do okay but they're very different paces now when you when you talk about the seers and you talk about control they feel very trapped if there's involuntary changes occurring so they like possibility openness at like freedom you make an unvoluntary change like how we did hybrid work or come back into the office

1:26:13a lot of people are trying to get people back in the office now your seers your creative thinkers your innovators they are not going to like it if they are mandated because that's where they would be losing control and it would be a problem and they certainly don't like it if you say something like this is a way we've always done it well let's keep doing it this way they're like yeah no so the feelers right um the way they get control is like this feeling that we're close me and you like we have the sense of closeness right so as a doctor I'm a feeler and when I was told that my time with patience was going to go down to x many minutes and I was going to be tracked the feeler and me that's me losing control and I don't like it when you do it with the thing that matters to me right which is the relationship now you've taken away my time to build that relationship

1:27:16so I just want you to know that it can show up differently for different people and I think part of burnout becomes when we are in a system that doesn't align with what we value and it's changing in a way that removes what gives us meaning goodness I you're bringing me back again to do I'm sorry for the reference or maybe not of bernay brown's atlas the heart understand emotions that your book that's what it strikes me as I've been going through there it's the atlas of the heart for avoiding burnout which that's what this series is about okay now I'm so I'm eager to create this today so if I am some parodid any way to pronounce well I'll take it so I really admire why if anybody wants to compare me I'm good with that analogy all right well I'm eager to get more into the values as we're going to do in in part two I'm grateful for everybody tuning in to this series with us the book again is powered by me from burn out to fully charged

1:28:23at work and in life and connect with connect with their intuitive intelligent ink dot com intuitive intelligent ink dot com that's where you teller jets so intuitive intelligence gain that you thank you that kind of once where you'll find uh Neha and if you appreciate this podcast and want to share it with others folks give us a rating on Spotify or Apple and give us a review and mention this specific show said yeah he had on dr. Neha and it was just incredible help me with burnout mention that it's great to get the feedback there you can see this whole episode on YouTube or lots of clips on social media find me at Kevin Miller CEO and if you want to learn how to master your own interdrive of course get my book what drives you on amazon and until next time folks stay driven thanks for joining us in the discussion that again is dr. Neha song one and the book is powered by me from burned out to fully charged at work and in life until next time here's to you and me making

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