Wayback Wednesday: The Spirit Molecule

0:00The Spirit Molecule, now on a view from the bunker. The portal to another dimension may be inside your mind. Literally. Our guest today is the author of nearly 30 peer-reviewed scientific papers. He served as a consultant to the FDA VA hospitals, the Social Security Administration, and another state and local agencies. In 1984, he began a full-time academic position at the University of New Mexico, where in 1990, he began the first new U.S. government approved and funded clinical research with psychedelic drugs in over 20 years. He's a full-time writer now and also clinical associate professor of psychiatry at the University of New Mexico School of Medicine. It's our honor to welcome Dr. Rick Strassman to our program. Rick, thank you for joining us. Well, thanks for having me on your show there. And I should point out the author of the book, DMT, The Spirit Molecule, which is something

1:03that grabbed Sharon's attention. And she's the one who recommended that I get in touch with you. And of course, your name was familiar to me having seen a presentation that cited your work at a conference in Nashville, given by Dr. Michael Bennett. DMT, The Spirit Molecule, an intriguing title. And the genesis of that title. Well, it kind of harkens back to some of my original motivation in running the study in the first place, which I began even thinking about in my college years and my early 20s, late teens. I, you know, for whatever reason, became interested in the biological basis of mystical or spiritual experiences. And through around about career and studies and academics and training, I ended up studying this drug called DMT, which has for dimethyl triptamine. It's a chemical cousin of serotonin, also a chemical cousin of melatonin.

2:06And it's an endogenous compound in the human body. It's made in all of us, especially in the lung. We read blood cells as well, but especially the lung tissue makes a lot of DMT. It's also a very common constituent of plants, you know, psychoactive plants, of which there are, you know, numerous that are used in the Amazon for their psychedelic effect, spiritual effects. So when I was, you know, positioned adequately to be able to propose a study like this to the government and to the university, I chose DMT as the molecule which to, you know, focus on. It was endogenous, which means it occurs naturally. It's quite psychedelic. It's a short-acting drug. And since I knew my studies would take place in a hospital, I thought a short-acting drug would be safe for teens and, you know, say the long-aracting, you know, the long-aracting

3:09drug like LSD, which could be eight to, you know, eight to 12 hours. And you know, so we did the study. And you know, people had what, you know, some I considered to be spiritual experiences among others. And so when I was thinking about a title for the book, I was, you know, thinking, this is a molecule that, you know, seems to lead people to spiritual states of mind. So it was kind of paradox in a way, you know, molecules and spirituality, ostensibly, on at least, you know, matter and spirit are, you know, some, you know, conflict perhaps. So I was thinking, you know, I was thinking that the title would address the paradox, but at, you know, at the same time, you know, serve as a bridge to try to work towards reconfiling

4:10the two fields or the two areas of thought. Well, it's a paradox that philosophers and theologians have been wrestling with for probably 5,000 or 6,000 years at least if not longer. If not longer. Sure. You mentioned that this is something that occurs, DMT occurs naturally in plants. And has it been used then by, you know, shaman or religious figures or leaders in cultures throughout history? Well, it's especially been commonly used in Latin America where there are quite a few DMT containing plants up there. There's the Amazonian brew, which has been gradually making inroads to the west, both in North America and in Western Europe. It's called Iowaska. And, you know, there's a couple of Brazilian churches, which actually have been using it in, you know, their liturgy for, you know, 70, 80 years or so.

5:14And the two of them obtained, you know, legal permission from either the Supreme Court of the U.S. or the Oregon Supreme Court could be able to use Iowaska in, you know, in other religious ceremonies. And you know, the use of Iowaska has been going on for, I'd say, well, you know, for, you know, many hundreds of years, if not even thousands of years, in Latin America. Also, you know, there are other plants that contain DMT, you know, that the natives in Latin America use in other, in other preparations, other than Iowaska, you know, sometimes they use them as snuffs, sometimes they'll smoke, you know, the powdered leaves or the powdered seeds of the DMT containing plants. You know, so they have a long history within the context of Latin America and St.

6:19Monism. Use is part of the liturgy now. Are they then used to induce these metaphysical experiences? Yeah, yeah. Well, I've only been to one of the churches. It's called the UDV and I went to a ceremony in Brazil. Also they can operate legally in San Antonio, Mexico, so I've attended a couple of their ceremonies as well. You know, so they get together in a big room with a light on and there's a leader and it's quite, you know, Christian and orientation. There's a lot of talk about Jesus and a lot of God and compassion and humility and service and things like that. And you know, they drink Iowaska in a big, big group and they say quietly ask questions. You know, there's some singing, you know, testimonies, those kinds of things, teachings, you know, from leaders. And you know, then you break up it up at around four hours. You have some of the eat, you kind of smooth with your neighbor and, you know, in a couple

7:21hours when all of the effects have resolved, you know, then you go home. What sort of effects does this produce this, bro? Well, it's, you know, kind of a slower acting version of the intravenous DMT, which is compound I used, you know, from my study. You know, it's interesting, the Amazonian native stumbled upon this combination of plants to provide an orally active DMT preparation. If you just swallow pure DMT by itself, it's inactive because of the enzymes and the stomach that break it down. And so that's the reason that we gave it intravenously. It's smoked on the street, but smoking a drug like that in a hospital for a clinical research study just wasn't practical. So we gave it intravenously. But by some strange, you know, feet of chemistry on the natives in Latin America, they found

8:30a plant which is combined with another plant that has DMT in it. The first plant prevents the breakdown of DMT in the stomach. And it allows the DMT, you know, to be orally active. If you get intravenous DMTs, you know, the effects begin within a few heartbeats and they peak within about a minute or two and are, you know, pretty much gone within 20 to 30 minutes. And you drink Ayahuasca, you know, the effects come on in about a half hour to an hour, a peak in about, you know, in around two hours or so and are, you know, fairly much resolved at around the four hour point. You know, but qualitatively, you know, they're quite similar. It's just a time course, you know, that's so radically different. You went looking for a molecule or a substance to test to research for these effects, something

9:35that would appear to trigger these spiritual experiences. Did you look specifically for something that was already present in the human body? Well, you know, I was interested in, you know, drugs like LSD or, you know, psilocybin, you know, which is contained in, in, in, in, I am so-called magic mushrooms. You know, DMT had been studied before and it was still a pretty obscure drug. I didn't think it would, it would attract, you know, the potential amount of, you know, publicity that I'm more infamous compound on like LSD might. And you know, it's existence in the human body, you know, obviously called for, you know, further investigations too. You know, so that was, you know, one of, you know, the positive factors that induced

10:37me to look specifically at, you know, DMT. It was relatively obscure. It had been, it had been studied safely in humans in previous research and it was endogenous. And, you know, the reason for existence in the human being, you know, obviously needed, you know, to be studied. Well, you know, when people first, you know, discovered, you know, DMT in the human body, you know, I'm obviously the group, you know, that was, you know, I'm, that was most interested in if existence were psychiatrists who were looking for the cause of schizophrenia. You know, because there is, you know, you know, some overlap between mystical states and, you know, psychotic states, you know, seeing things and, you know, distortions of, you know, self-image and, you know, bodily integrity, those kinds of things. You know, so instead of looking for a potential, you know, role of DMT in spiritual states,

11:38you know, psychiatry looked for DMT's potential role in psychosis. You know, so that was kind of the emphasis up until the time all of this research ended in the early 1970s. So the presence of DMT in the body then, the theory then going in was it to consider how and whether DMT might, and just to clarify, because I think you've already alluded to this, but just to clarify the theory then, to determine how and whether DMT might be linked to what people report as mystical, supernatural experiences. Yeah. Well, you know, us, sexibly, the study was a, you know, psychopharmacological study of DMT. I got, you know, my funding, you know, from the National Institute of Drug Abuse,

12:43you know, which is a, you know, division of the National Institute of Health, you know. So the study had to be, you know, presented in a, in a, you know, fairly sober manner. You know, so am I, well, so the study proposed to just, you know, characterize as many DMT's on the effects as I possibly could, you know, from the pharmacological to the endocrinological, you know, to the, to the psychological. So in, you know, in, in, in terms of the endocrinological and the pharmacological effects of DMT, I was coming at death from the perspective of the zero-toned receptor system in the brain and on the endocrin glands, you know, from the psychological point of view, I developed a new rating scale

13:45to quantify the effects of DMT. And also I took very careful notes on everybody's experiences, which is something that the short duration allowed me to do. I was able to write on everything that's said and every, on every move they made and on everything that went on in the room during that half hour period. Yeah, which again, with a longer duration drug like LSD would have made it very impractical and possibly even a little more dangerous to, to do as the, the CIA's experimentation with the drug and the search for the mentoring candidate has shown. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. And you know, if you have an eight hour drug or ten hour drug in a little hospital room, you're asking for trouble too. So, you know, this is over and a half hour. It was in an outing, you know, no time at all. And, you know, so in terms of the psychological effects, that's obviously, you know, where the majority of my interest lie. And, you know, I was looking, you know, I was looking

14:49for experiences from the volunteers, you know, that were similar to those, you know, that would be reported by what I believed would be spiritual types of experiences. So, what were some of the common experiences that people reported as part of the study you conducted at the University of New Mexico? Well, I gave a number of different doses of the drug. You know, so let me just kind of talk about the higher doses of the drug because, you know, where the action was. Yeah. Well, as I mentioned earlier, it begins very quickly within a few heartbeats. And there's this internal pressure that builds up at the same time as a high pitched, you know, kind of a whining sound, screeching sound. And as this, you know, sound builds up, and it kind of, you know, reaches a crescendo, kind of a climax as it were.

15:53And then people burst out of their bodies, or, you know, their consciousness, you know, seems to dissociate from their physical bodies. You know, as they're entering into the state, there's quite a kaleidoscopic display of colors going on either with their eyes open or their eyes closed. It was a little distracting for people to open up their eyes in the beginning of the experience. You know, so I had to encourage people to keep their eyes closed. And actually, after a few months of getting things underway, we actually encouraged people to use black eye shades, you know, to cover their eyes. So if they did open their eyes reflexively, you know, they'd be reminded to keep their eyes closed. You know, so I had to add about the one minute point or, you know, the half minute point, you know, people's consciousness would kind of leave their bodies. And they would be disembodied consciousness, you know, perceiving this on a very ecstatically, emotionally laden world of light.

16:59You know, it could be on, you know, some of the visual images could be more, you know, simply unformed geometric patterns. But oftentimes, these patterns coalesce into images of beings, in fact, like, plant-like, serpentine-like, angelic, you know, sometimes human, you know, sometimes machines, you know, sometimes, you know, some combination thereof. And if there was an exchange of information between the volunteer and these beings, there was a tremendous amount of elation and astonishment at being, you know, transported to this completely independent, you know, seemingly free-standing realm of reality, you know, so instantly. So, you know, there was an exchange of information, there was an exchange of, you know, feelings, you know,

18:04sometimes there was predictions of the future, other times, you know, healings took place. You know, healings, genuine physical conditions were affected during these altered states? Well, not physical, you know, healings, but psychological structures. Okay. You know, healings working through, for example, you know, post-traumatic stress or, you know, depression or, you know, creative blocks, you know, those kinds of things. The beings, how, was this a consistent experience during the tests, encountering other entities? Yeah, it was quite common. You know, I gave close to 60 different people, almost, you know, 400 different doses of the drug over the space of the study which occurred between 1990 and 1995. And I would say over half the people in the study encountered these, you know, kinds of beings.

19:10Were there consistencies in the description of these beings or did it really depend on the individual? You know, it really depended on the individual. You know, some, you know, one thing that was, you know, kind of common was an insect motif, like a bee or just a generic insect, it was hard to describe or praying, or, you know, something like a, you know, praying mantis. Other times, it was like a plant, one guy had an experience of these big, siguro-cactuses interacting with them. You know, sometimes they're humans, you know, either Indians or Mexicans or, you know, everyday, you know, kinds of North American types. You know, sometimes they're a machine, computers, you know, sometimes they're angels. You know, one guy's experience was that he was in the middle of an apartment, you know,

20:12that was sentient, intelligent and was alive. You know, so, you know, as time went on and I was trying to understand and, you know, make some sense of people's experiences and the individual nature of the quality of these beings, it began to, you know, dawn on me that these were, you know, specific, you know, kinds of information that was being transmitted in some form or another. And, you know, the image, you know, set these forces, you know, took on, you know, seemed resonant with the type of information, you know, that was being exchanged. How consistent were the messages, the information that the subjects reported receiving or exchanging with these beings that they encountered? Well, that's a good question, you know. I think it would, you know, kind of depend on the

21:18level of development of the person himself or herself. If the person was kind of mired in their own psychology, you know, I was quite careful to screen at anybody with any, you know, major psychological problems or any drug abuse problems. You know, so it was a, it was a, you know, psychologically healthy group of volunteers, you know, you know, but nevertheless everybody has got their problems. And, you know, the ones, you know, that were, you know, that there were more concerned on an everyday kind of basis with their own issues, their own stories, their own problems, their own interpersonal conflicts. In those cases, the information was oftentimes, you know, psychological in nature. For the ones who had done more inner work, more spiritual oriented, had, you know, had worked through a lot of their psychological, you know, conflicts previously. And those individuals, you know, the messages were more cosmic, more spiritual, more, you know,

22:23well, yeah, I suppose that's a, you know, you know, those are, you know, good descriptions, you know, more cosmic, more spiritual, you know, more, more oriented, you know, towards divinity and, you know, what to do with their lives, those kinds of issues. What was the, out of phrases, theological or philosophical orientation of the group? I mean, did you screen for, say, people who came in convinced that we were being visited by extra terrestrials or convinced that, well, any particular, you know, political or, or banter or philosophical banter, or we, did you pretty much just focus on a looking for people who seem to be in your opinion well grounded and, and, and, and fairly stable? Yeah, well, the bottom line was that everybody had experience with these drugs before and some, you know, some former or another.

23:30You know, in, you know, it was the first such, it was the first such, better you like this in a long time in the States. And I was extremely, you know, concerned about safety and form, consent, those kinds of things. And so, you know, first screening question, I asked any prospective volunteer was if, you know, they had experience with these drugs before. And, you know, then I would ask what kind of experiences and if, you know, they seem to be hand, you know, and if the perspective, you know, volunteer, you know, seemed to be able, you know, to handle the responses to these drugs. You know, and, you know, so after that, I just screened them for psychological and, you know, physical health. You know, the maturity, I would say almost all of the volunteers were interested in anything like meditation, your religion, you know, Buddhism, those kinds of things.

24:30And actually, I was coming at it, you know, from that perspective too, from a, you know, from the theological point of view. I was raised Jewish, but you know, kind of abandoned it in my teens and then in my early, in my late teens and early 20s, I became interested in, in, in, in, I'm in Zen Buddhism, which I pursued. You know, fairly rigorously for over 20 years after that. You know, there weren't any, you know, devout either to use or Christians in my study. You know, there were some pagans, you know, some followers of the Wicken religion. You know, I'm often asked if the whole UFO alien thing was implanted in them, you know, because of the larger cultures, interest in abductions and so on. But, you know, my studies took place in the early 90s, you know, before, you know, much of this thought and, you know, interest in UFOs and entities and beings was all that popular.

25:42And I'm actually a number of volunteers. I'm after they had these experiences were quite surprised and thought, well, you know, I have no interest in this stuff, you know. Am I having these kinds of experiences? If I'm not interested, I've never, you know, read anything about beings. But, I think, you know, that these things have to take some kind of form, you know, you know, they have to put on, you know, some kind of garments, you know, for us to be able to see them. So, I think that they were taking on whatever form, you know, the person was comfortable with, you know, seeing or was, you know, kind of constructed out of, you know, bits and pieces of their unconscious to be able to, you know, manifest in, you know, some way that, you know, they were visible and, you know, perceptible. Well, let me ask you this, then, do you think that what these people were seeing were constructs of their own minds or were they actually seeing something that was, as you say, putting on a form that would be recognizable to the human consciousness in order to communicate?

26:51Well, you know, I think it's kind of a combination. You know, I spent a lot of time thinking and, you know, discussing with colleagues, you know, whether, you know, you know, concerning the location of this realm and the inhabitants or, you know, the components of, you know, the D&T world. And, you know, and, you know, so despite all of my scientific training and even Buddhist, you know, and even Buddhist, you know, training, which, which regards these sorts of phenomena as mental constructs as well. I ended up on the, you know, side of, you know, believing that they're independent things, you know, they're not in our minds. You know, they're being perceived in our minds, but they're external to us.

27:53And, you know, because they have to be, you know, feeable, you know, then our own minds kind of, you know, generate, I suppose, the clothing or the garments or the, or, you know, the actual, or, or, you know, the actual, you know, form that they take. You know, it's fascinating that you would say that what kind of reaction has it had, have you received? How has it affected you professionally to come out and say that publicly? I mean, you make reference to your scientific training and I think it's safe to say that something that can't be observed and measured or quantified through our physical senses, even aided by, you know, certain devices, but something that we cannot physically observe with our natural senses, it by some means is usually dismissed by the scientific, but by, you know, the scientific method.

28:58So, how has that affected you professionally, personally? Yeah. Well, you know, to answer the question or to even, you know, kind of address the question of, you know, subjective experience, you know, being, you know, being the topic of, you know, scientific study. I mean, everybody dreams and everybody, you know, believes that there are dreams, but, you know, nobody has ever, you know, seen anybody else's dream. You know, nobody has, you know, measured, you know, somebody else's dream on a machine and recorded it for, you know, somebody else to look at. You know, so that's a good example of a, you know, common subjective experience, which is still, you know, subject to, you know, scientific scrutiny and scientific study. You know, the contents of the dream aren't obviously, you know, studyable in the same, you know, manner that, you know, scans of the brain and, you know, cheese can be, but still, I mean, everybody acknowledges that there is a dream state, everybody dreams.

30:06You know, so I'm, you know, kind of proposing in a way, but I guess it's a slightly more radical, you know, because everybody believes that dreams are generated, you know, from within the brain or within the mind. And I'm, you know, more proposing, you know, that this is just a, you know, mental, you know, perception of, you know, something that is out there as opposed to being internally generated. You know, well, I can answer both questions, you know, it also, you know, could be the case in a few hundred years that we are able, you know, to photograph, you know, somebody's dreams or, you know, we are able, you know, to photograph what's going on in the, in the DMT state. You know, so we can, you know, turn it into, you know, some objective data, but, you know, on our scientific, you know, technology is incapable on at this point of being able to record those kind of data. And, you know, in terms of the professional, you know, fallout, you know, from the book, I kind of catch my bets in the DMT book, which I wrote in the late 90s.

31:18I stopped working at the university in 1995. I had just given too much DMT and I wasn't able to understand what people were going through. And, you know, on the ads, you do, well, you know, I first began studying a group of friends and colleagues and then as time went on, I was recruiting, you know, people that I really didn't, you know, know that well. And, you know, so even though nobody, you know, really had a terrible time, I was still, you know, increasingly concerned that I might not have been, you know, been doing all that much, you know, bit for people because I couldn't really understand what it was they were going through. You know, was this their brain on drugs, was it some kind of, you know, was it some kind of psychological aberration, were people being thrust into some alternative dimensions of reality that, you know, somehow, you know, compound was allowing access to, you know, so I was getting confused as to, you know, what exactly I was doing and, you know, what it all meant.

32:31And so, you know, by the time, you know, my grants, you know, were about done, there were, you know, number of other, you know, more personal and, you know, familial issues that also had to be, you know, taken care of at the time. So, I stopped working at the university and, you know, packed up shop with the research effort in around 1995. You know, so since then, I've either been just, you know, doing clinical psychiatry in a practice or else I've been writing, I don't have any, you know, permits or any grants, you know, from the government at this point, I'm not doing any clinical research anymore. You know, so I have a lot more, you know, latitude and, and you know, freedom, you know, to speculate about some of these findings and, you know, some of their implications. Now, the study at the university in New Mexico between 1990 and about 1995, is that correct?

33:35Right. Okay, so that was pre-ex files. So maybe the cultural indoctrination or however you want to phrase it into alien grays, maybe not as strong as pervasive as it is today. No, no, I don't think so. And, you know, strangely enough, of all those entities that my volunteers, you know, saw, you know, not one of them was your typical, you know, little gray. You know, with a small mouth and, you know, the large head. Well, what was it that led them to conclude or at least speculate that these were alien entities that they were encountering? Oh, well, you know, alien entities is, you know, it's a convenient term. It's a catch-all phrase, right? Yeah, it's, you know, it's kind of like a guy or a gal, you know. It's an easy description, you know, to capture something that could be, you know, fairly subtle.

34:35You know, so people really didn't call them aliens, all that much. You know, they called them plants or bees or insects or machines or those kinds of things. And when I was writing the book, I was struggling about, you know, what to call them. And I ended up just calling them beings. And that was the most generic, you know, term I could come up with. Did they give any kind of indication as to their nature or their origins? Well, you know, when they did talk about it, you know, they did refer to being from, you know, some other place, you know, some other planet, some other solar system, you know, some other distant, you know, celestial body. You know, that wasn't all that common though that they actually, you know, said this is who we are. You know, they were more, you know, kind of interested in, you know, doing things or, you know, getting certain points across as quickly as they could, you know, because the time was limited just a few minutes in real time.

35:44Because of the quick acting nature of the DMT molecule. Yeah, yeah, you know, in terms of clock time, you know, you know, the meat of the experience took place probably just over the space for that, you know, maybe 10 minutes or less. Subjectively to the people in the experiment, how long did that 10 minutes feel? Well, it felt, you know, for hours and hours for some people, you know, some people even, you know, work in events, you know, that they had died and, you know, had come back. And, you know, so in that, you know, the white light kind of death state, you know, they just, you know, kind of hovered, you know, for how I'm ever long, you know, seemed to be, it became timeless in, you know, those cases. What's the connection, you know, it was interesting. Oftentimes, you know, people would open up their eyes and, you know, they would ask, you know, how much time had elapsed? And I'd say, well, 20 minutes or so, it's like 20 minutes, it's, you know, seemed like hours and hours and hours.

36:49Yeah, so that was a, you know, fairly common reaction. Huh. What's the connection between the DMT molecule and the pineal gland? Well, the pineal gland, you know, obviously has been an object of curiosity and even veneration, you know, for thousands of years. It's, you know, the only unpaired organ in the brain, you know, the catalysts and, you know, the Hindu esoteric physiology system. They both place a lot of merit in the spiritual power of, you know, the location of the body where the pineal resides, you know, kind of, you know, fontanel of the skull and the human. You know, so they've speculated that it's, you know, the location of the highest spiritual states, which people are capable of attaining. You know, the pineal gland, it was just kind of a curiosity, you know, of, you know, for medicine up until the 1940s or so, at which time melatonin was discovered as, you know,

38:05skin, skin, you know, lightning agent in, you know, certain, you know, lizards. And then it was, it was then studied more carefully in, you know, mammals and it was discovered, you know, to have reproductive, um, effects. And, you know, to preserve the anesthesia and the breathing, you know, kinds of issues. And it was still unclear for, you know, for quite some time, you know, what the role of vitameloatonin is in humans. And, you know, obviously, I was interested in the pineal gland as a possible, you know, source or as a location of spiritual experience. And so in my library reading, I was able, you know, to determine that there were quite a few interesting, you know, coincidences that have to do with a pineal gland.

39:14And it's, you know, possible in a role in spiritual experience. It has quite high concentrations of, you know, serotonin, which is one of the steps in the, you know, formation of DMT. It has a number of enzymes, which are, you know, required for the synthesis of DMT. And even one, and even one small study quite a few years ago demonstrated if you use pineal, you know, tissue in a, you know, test tube. And you mix it in with a number of different chemicals. You can get a, you know, DMT-like, you know, chemical, you know, that's produced in the test tube. But despite all of this, we still, you know, really haven't, you know, determined if the pineal gland makes DMT or not.

40:16You know, I, you know, do, in the DMT book, I do marshal quite a bit of, you know, circumstantial evidence for a, you know, potential, you know, pineal, you know, location of DMT. But it's still remains to be determined. You know, even if, even if, you know, the pineal gland, you know, doesn't have anything to do with DMT. I don't think it would, you know, it would necessarily impact, you know, the role or, you know, the significance of naturally occurring DMT in, in naturally occurring spiritual states. Especially, you know, if, if, well, as, you know, because the lung is capable of, you know, making, you know, so much DMT quite easily.

41:17But the body seems to regulate the level of DMT in the bloodstream and keeps it to a, I guess, manageable level. Yeah. Well, that's a very interesting, you know, thing is in the 19, in, in the 1970s. There were a couple of Japanese studies that demonstrated that the brain expands energy, getting, you know, DMT into its confines, which is a rare, you know, thing. You know, the brain is extremely sensitive, you know, to what's in it. And it has this thing which protects it called the blood brain barrier. And it is quite, and it can be extremely difficult for, you know, things to get into, into the brain through the blood brain barrier.

42:20And, you know, for some crucial, you know, components of, you know, brain function, you know, the brain actually expands energy, you know, you know, kind of pumping it across into the brain through the blood brain barrier. And actually, these Japanese studies demonstrated on, on that the brain expands energy in getting DMT into itself. You know, so it's almost as if DMT is required for, you know, normal brain function. And there's only a few amino acids that the brain expands energy, you know, to get into itself, you know, glucose, you know, the brain's fuel is transported across the blood brain barrier. You know, so DMT is as well. And it, you know, obviously, you know, it, you know, kind of raises the question, you know, why is this the case? So it, you know, it, you know, could be on the DMT is, you know, kind of acting as a, you know, kind of reality thermostat for the brain.

43:25It, you know, is required for, you know, perceptual, you know, homey of stasis as it were, you know, too much, you know, DMT in the brain and, you know, and, you know, things become extremely psychedelic and very strange. And, you know, it, you know, could be the case that not enough DMT would lend itself to kind of a flattening and a grain of, you know, the perceptual world out there. That's an interesting thought. Yeah, yeah, it's a weird one isn't it? Yeah, well it is. I've been a sci-fi fan for many, many years and write a little bit and that's, you know, just, it prompts all kinds of little, little nubs of story ideas. But the, the question that presents itself, if, what these people are seeing when the DMT levels are elevated through the intervenious application or the DMT level, the intervenous application or, you know, injection of, or introduction of DMT into the bloodstream intravenously.

44:30You mentioned that for the most of the participants, you had them close your eyes because it was very distracting. Were they, they still seeing the physical world of the hospital room, the test setting and this heightened perception and overlaid this other reality on top of it? Yeah, well, the, you know, the contents of, you know, the DMT world were overlaid on the hospital room. Yeah, yeah, so that was really a bit too much. And it was a lot easier if they just kept your eyes closed. Wow. So was there any interaction between the DMT world and the natural world? Well, I'm like, what do you mean? I mean, from the viewpoint of someone under the influence of DMT, were they seeing anything in that physical interaction, of course, but did the, I don't know if you want to call them occupants of this other realm, the DMT world?

45:37Did they seem to be aware of the occupants of the, the natural world? Oh, I see. Where they were the entities of the beings, I'm aware of what was of the room itself. Right, right. Yeah, what they were, you know, well, they told the volunteers oftentimes in, you know, their own ways that they were glad that, you know, they had, well, they were glad. They, we had stumbled upon this technology. And, you know, they felt or, you know, relayed to the volunteers, you know, that they were there all the time. And, you know, separated from us by an extremely thin membrane, obviously, if, if, just within a few heartbeat, you know, they were there, right in front of the volunteers, you know, consciousness as it were. And, you know, sometimes the beings, you know, refer to us as the experimenters or, you know, the research, you know, scientists.

46:47And, you know, they would make, you know, comments about us. But, you know, that was a small percentage of, you know, the content which, you know, was exchanged. You know, so, you know, so they didn't say, oh, you know, Rick is picking us nose right now. Or, you know, you know, there's an ee, or, you know, there's a cardiogram, you know, that's walking down the hall. Or, you know, you know, like an EKG machine, you know, that's going down the hall. So they didn't make, you know, you know, comments like that. Any reports of information exchange that would be considered paranormal. I mean, for example, things that these entities shouldn't have known, or there was no explanation for how they could know information. Like, say, you know, Dr. Strassman has $13.47 in his pocket or something like that. No, no, no. Oh, no, as far as I can recall, no. No, you know, the volunteers were, you know, so blown away.

47:49And, you know, just kind of had to hold onto their seats. You know, to keep their eyes open as it were, to understand what it was that was going on. And, you know, to remember as much as possible, and to keep their cool. You know, they, you know, oftentimes, you know, they just weren't able to ask these beings any questions. And, you know, kinds of things that the beings were, you know, saying or, you know, doing, you know, they weren't that mundane. You know, they were more personal or more, you know, cosmic in nature. Yeah, not resorting to cheap card tricks, in other words, to impress the participants. No, no, there were no cheap card tricks. Although, you know, they had, you know, mischievous air about them on the list, you know, sometimes or, you know, some of them did. So, you know, that's an interesting thing. You know, if you look at these entities or these beings as, you know, representative of, you know, pixies, annals, and angels that people have been reporting for thousands of years, you know, oftentimes, they're described as, you know, having, you know, particular, you know, personality, you know, features, you know, on like being, you know, mischievous.

49:03Or, you know, playful, you know, those kinds of characteristics. Yeah, I've read reports online from people who have taken this, have taken DMT, you know, out in the field, presumably smoked. And elves are a common theme, you know, people reporting, you know, seeing the elves, meeting the elves and so forth. Yeah, you know, on a lot of that, I think, you know, could relate to Terrence, McKenna's popularizing of, you know, DMT, and, you know, the mid, you know, 1990s or so. Because he spoke very clearly and, you know, and quite persuasively, you know, I'm about the, well, regarding the astonishing aspects of, you know, the DMT experience and the importance of, you know, looking into it.

50:03And sometimes, you know, DMT experiences were those of elves. So I think by the time the mid, you know, 1990s rolled around. And you know, Terrence is, you know, descriptions of his own DMT experiences became, you know, more popular. I think it was the case that, you know, more people started, you know, seeing these elf life. You know, we had no elf, you know, or, you know, I don't think any of our, you know, volunteers actually, you know, described elves. You know, you know, at the time our studies were taking place with Terrence's stories hadn't gotten, you know, much popularity. Well, you know, that's an interesting point that the people in the field might have been, that their visions might have been affected by the suggestions from Mr. McKenna. And you mentioned how you selected volunteers for the study based on some, having some experience with psychedelic drugs, which probably precluded the, say, devout Christians or Jews from any devout Christians or Jews participating in your study.

51:18Maybe less likely one would assume to have experimented with those types of drugs. How did that affect, do you think, the experiences that they did that, that your volunteers reported? I mean, was there a, do you think a, let me rephrase that would the experiences reported, do you think, might have been different if you had had devout Christians, Jews or Muslims in the study? Yeah, I'm not sure. And, you know, one of the reasons that I've actually become interested in the concept of Old Testament, you know, of the descriptions of the experiences of the Old Testament prophets is, you know, is, you know, because on the nature of the experience, that, you know, that my volunteers, you know, had on DMT, were not consistent with, you know, with the kinds of expectations, you know, that I had. And, you know, that the volunteers had coming from the perspective of Eastern religions, especially, you know, Buddhism.

52:40You know, they were expecting, and I was too, you know, more unitive kinds of, you know, mystical experiences, you know, you know, the, you know, the dissolving of the ego and into the white light, you know, the, you know, the law that becoming one with the universe, that sort of thing. Yeah, you know, the unitive kinds of merging experiences. But instead, almost everybody in my study, you know, had relational experiences, you know, they kept their identity, they were themselves interacting with these things that were out there, which was, you know, completely different than either, you know, the my expectations or, you know, the vast majority of the volunteers expectations. So, you know, so after the study was done, and I was looking, you know, you know, and I was looking for some model to explain the spiritual responses, you know, to this drug.

53:46I, you know, I, I, you know, I looked quite carefully at the, you know, Buddhist, you know, paradigmatic spiritual experience of enlightenment, and compared it, you know, to my volunteers experiences. And it just, you know, there just, you know, there wasn't much overlap or, you know, similarities. So I then started looking, you know, for other systems of spirituality, you know, that took into account the relational nature of the spiritual world. And also it's external free standing reality basis too. So that's, you know, so that's when I started, you know, to look into the Old Testament as, you know, the scripture, you know, the sacred scripture, you know, from my own background. And then as, you know, time went on in the whole, you know, the concept of the prophetic state, you know, began.

55:03To a urge as a good model to explain and contain and even kind of, you know, build upon the, you know, the results of my work. So you're saying then and please correct me if I'm wrong because I don't want to misrepresent your position here or your, your, your analysis. But you found that the Old Testament model of the interaction of the prophets with angels and perhaps demons, but which are, you know, angelic beings of a different allegiance to be more consistent with the experiences of your volunteers under the influence of DMT, then sort of the mystical experience of enlightenment that you had thought you'd find. Yeah. That's a good way to, you know, to summarize it. That's exactly that's a, that's a pretty powerful statement.

56:10And when you read some of the apocalyptic prophecy of writers like Ezekiel or, or, you know, John the revelator. Yeah, I, you can really see that. I guess Daniel too and some of the things that he saw. And I, and Zachariah. Yes. Yes. I'm sure I'm right. It, I mean, all of them had extremely psychedelic experiences in interactive, emotionally trying. You know, they were blown away. They couldn't make sense of it. You know, they quaked and they shivered and they moaned and they didn't, you know, it was inconsistent. They fell on their faces right. Yeah, just didn't know how to process what they were seeing. Yeah. Right. I know. There you go. Wow. That's, that's a pretty amazing statement. And again, I have to ask this again. What sort of response do you get from fellow academics when you put this idea out there? Yeah. Well, you know, I'm out of the academic world. You know, to a large extent. You know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I

57:18I, I, but I'm not, you know, doing clinical research anymore, and I'm going to meet you on, I'm going to meet you on, I'm not doing clinical research anymore, I don't know the meetings. I don't know any, I don't know any, I don't have you know, I don't have much of a stake in the, you know, so called scientific world view, and I'm a little more free to kind of, you know, Rome, you know, where the data takes me. So, you know, in the DMT book came out in, you know, 2000. I, I, you know, get responses from kids, mostly, you know, from 18 to 20, who have tried DMT or they've been interested in trying it or they're trying to understand their own experiences. The academic community has been respectfully silent, more or less, that interested in having really made all that much of a commotion. I think as a result of the current book that I'm working on right now, kind of tying

58:25in my DMT work with Old Testament material, I think I'm going to lose a few readers and the hardcore materialistic psychedelic and the same time I hope to interest on a whole other group of readers, especially those who have got an interest in the Bible as a spiritual text. Yeah, and that's why my wife felt so strongly that needed to get in touch with you and once I realized that again, your book DMT The Spirit Molecule was a significant part of the presentation, a very eye-opening presentation I thought at the last day's conference in Nashville regarding the possibility of a portal to other dimensions, spirit dimensions, inside our own heads.

59:31There is a small group within evangelical Christianity that would appreciate your work and look at your research as rather groundbreaking. Most of the rest of the Christian community thinks we're nuts, frankly. Welcome to the dark side. But I suppose in the context of your research and the nature of the work that you've been doing, you're kind of used to stepping out where others fear to tread. Well, yeah, I think that's just my nature. I like to break ground and then kind of once it's broken, I kind of look around and kind of wonder where the next area that needs some groundbreaking work done in it.

1:00:31So I've just been kind of following the reports of my volunteers and it just was not consistent with the Buddhist point of view and explaining it purely from the brain chemistry point of view seemed a little just kind of short-sighted. I think the content of these dates are spiritual to a large extent. And I think there ought to be some contextualizing of those experiences from a spiritual perspective that people can relate to and that keeps to the facts or to the data anyway of the descriptions of people's experiences. Based on what you saw and what you've read since your research concluded at New Mexico back in 1995, what is your view of attempts to contact the spirit realm? Well, you know, you have to be careful what you asked for.

1:01:33And, you know, yeah, well, you know, people are always asking me about, you know, I'm about how to get DNT or, you know, they want to take it and, you know, they want me to give them, you know, some advice about how to take it. And, you know, and, you know, some, you know, some, my standard answer is, you know, it's an illegal drug. I only gave it in a, you know, in a proof hospital setting with all my permits in order. I don't think anybody ought to take drugs. You know, so, you know, that's kind of my pet reply. So, you know, that being, you know, said, you know, people are going to take drugs. So, and, you know, they are, you know, and it is tempting to storm heaven as it were. You know, sometimes, you know, these drugs, you know, can you kind of push you into spiritual states,

1:02:37but, you know, you have to really do your homework and you have to be prepared and you have to get as much in a work, you know, done as you can and you have to understand, you know, the kinds of things that you might be encountering and, you know, kind of, you know, think about how you're going to deal with them. And, you know, so that's, you know, kind of, you know, one of the conclusions of this, of, of, of the book that I'm currently, you know, working on, is if you want to understand your experience as I'm these drugs and you want to, you know, kind of go in with framework and a rudder, you know, and, if you come from, you know, Judeo, Christian point of view, or, you know, culture, even, you know, that the Bible is a good place to start, you know, if you want to, you know, make them, if you want to understand your psychedelic experiences and, you know, make the most of them, you know, then it, to be the case, you know,

1:03:45that, you know, that learning about the Bible and the, you know, teachings of the prophets would be, I'm a lot more, you know, would, be more helpful than, you know, learning about, you know, Buddhism and, you know, some of their ideas. So, and I know our time is running short here, but just as a working theory then, is it your view that, this perception of this other realm, experienced by the prophets, and perhaps, if one accepts the, the creation story literally, Adam and Eve, who walked with God and conversed with Him on a regular basis, that, this molecule, the DMT molecule was, shall we say, designed as part of our operating system to facilitate that communication? Well, yeah, I do actually, and, you know, if it's not DMT, it's, you know, some other compound in the brain, but, you know, there's got to be some, you know, biological correlate that, you know, that's taking place.

1:04:55It isn't the cause, but it's just, you know, kind of how it works. So, you know, it might be DMT, you know, I think as, you know, time goes on, you know, there, you know, there were going to be discovering all kinds of, you know, psychedelic, you know, compounds that the brains are making all the time. So, if it's not only DMT, or if it's not, you know, DMT, there's going to be other, you know, similar compounds there. But, yeah, I think, you know, you know, the God designed the brain for it to be able to communicate with spirit realms, and, you know, these are, you know, the mechanisms by which, you know, that communication takes place. Rick Strassman and Dr. Rick Strassman is the author of DMT, the Spirit Molecule, published by Park Street Press. How can people get a copy of your book? Oh, you know, if they go onto my website, you can order it from me, and I can sign it, you know, for them. It's a little more expensive, you know, than on Amazon. You know, but it's also carried on Amazon and Barnes and Noble, and, you know, oftentimes, you know, the big, you know, bookstore chains, I've got it to like borders, and, you know, what have you.

1:06:00And the website is Rick Strassman, that's stras, ASMRN.com. I'll put a link to that in the show notes at vftb.net. And Rick has been a fascinating hour of conversation. Please keep in touch, and let us know as you get close to publication of your new book, because that sounds like a fascinating work. And certainly want to talk to you about it and read it when it's available. Okay, yeah, you know, I'm kind of, you know, getting into the more difficult material with the book right now, but I think it ought to be done by springing out by the summer or you know, the fall next year. We'll definitely look forward to talking with you again. Rick Strassman, thank you very much for joining us today on View From The Bunker. Okay, thanks, Derek. It was a pleasure. Look for a link to Dr. Strassman's website in the show notes, which you'll find online at vftb.net. Monday night, that is August 2nd, 2010, Sharon and I will be live, pid radio live on blogtalkradio.com slash pid radio. That's Monday night, August 2nd, at 7pm Eastern time, GMT minus 5, we'll be discussing more 6, 12 stories, the, where the rubber meets the road in the spiritual war in which we find ourselves.

1:07:07Welcome to the battlefield. We appreciate your interaction via chat room and the telephone, as you can call in the program as we're on the year and live, blogtalkradio.com slash pid radio. Monday, August 2nd, at 7pm Eastern time. Coming up Friday, what if the Bible gives us a template of history, a pattern, which we can use to predict future events? It's not Bible codes. It's something different. It's called The Template of Time, which is the title of a new book by Tom Paine. And we'll talk to Mr. Paine Friday night on View from the Bunker Live on blogtalkradio.com slash pid radio, Friday night 10pm Eastern time. That's GMT minus 5. Again, blogtalkradio.com slash pid radio. We welcome your comments, questions and guest suggestions via email, send those to radio at peeringintodarkens.com. And until next time, thanks for listening. I'm Derek Gilbert and this is A View from the Bunker.