Want more intimacy in your relationships? Conflict could help

0:00This message comes from Workday, the Enterprise AI platform with a deep understanding of your organization's context and guardrails. So every AI action is permission-aware, giving you the ability to get work done right. It's a new Workday. So I went swimming this weekend for the first time in, I want to say it was 15 or 20 years. Wow. And for a lot of reasons, I think I never really liked pools. I don't like the smell of them. They kind of grossed me out. But I've been thinking about parenthood actually. And I've been thinking I need to know how to swim if I'm going to have a kid. So finally, I went to the pool this weekend and I was so much better than I thought I would be. It reminded me that I can do things that are hard and like I can learn skills. And then to also treat swimming not as an identity, but as a skill. Yeah. Right? It's like in Spanish, there's like Sarah versus a star.

1:01Sarah is like a permanent state in a star as a condition. And like in a way, you move swimming from a star like I'm not a swimmer. Yeah. To like a star, which is like I am practicing learning to swim. Yeah, I am swimming right now. You're verbing not now. Yeah. Hey, it's Mario Cigarra. You're listening to LifeKit from NPR. And that was author and conflict resolution facilitator Priya Parker. She has a new book called The Art of Fighting. And she talks about why we need to be able to fight with the people we care about. And I promise this connects back to the swimming thing. And I've learned just like you swimming. I've learned that conflict is a skill. Yeah. And I know this because I grew up painting conflict. I am conflict diverse. Everyone in my family is conflict diverse. And I'm a conflict resolution facilitator who is conflict diverse. And I think one of the reasons those of us who are relatively effective is because we have such deep empathy

2:01for the people who want to flee in the room. And by the way, like swimming conflict is actually super physical. Not in the way we think. All conflict is physical, but within ourselves. Yeah. So when like the heat rises, right? When people when you start experiencing potential isolation or fear or you know separation. We have physical symptoms. Our hands get sweaty. Our parts are to palpitate. Our mouth gets dry. And so some of the skills for holding conflict and holding conflict with those we care about is actually just learning that those things happen and learning how to manage some of the physical signals that our body is sending us to you know to flee. Yeah, that bit of discomfort. It can feel like that means this is wrong. That means I shouldn't be doing this exactly. We assume if heat is rising and we are getting these warning signals that this must be bad. But actually the reframe is oh, there's something relevant here.

3:03I should pay attention. Take away one conflict is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, Priya argues it's necessary if we want to be in close authentic relationships. So when you have a moment of misalignment with someone, try thinking of it as a signal. There's something here to talk about. Now Priya's first book was called The Art of Gathering. And we've had her on the show a lot to talk about community and gatherings and friendship. So I told her the last thing I want to do at a gathering is fight. It's just that my inclination when I gather with people is that if people are fighting, this thing has gone off the rails. And that may be true. And this is a this is not saying that fighting is on the rails. I am interested in group life. I'm interested in what allows us despite all of the obstacles in modern life. Despite having different schedules and different beliefs and all of these things. How can we still meaningfully connect and gathering is one tool to help us get better at group life.

4:09And conflict is another tool to help us get better at group life. And in my 20 years as a conflict resolution facilitator, I've learned that healthy communities need love. But healthy communities also need heat. Yeah, you say specifically that healthy community needs healthy conflict. What is healthy conflict as opposed to unhealthy conflict? When trouble rises, we often oscillate between these two stances, which is kind of avoidance, pretending like nothing is a year folks and escalation, kind of burning the house down. There's a place between what I call unhealthy peace and unhealthy conflict, which is healthy heat or healthy conflict. And I think of that space as a place where a group or group of people are able to hold tension with care long enough to be generative or clarifying. And so when we don't know how to fight well,

5:10we end up either saying nothing at all and then it implodes or exiting. And so learning how to be what I call an artful fighter is actually an investment in community. Take away too. Healthy conflict can bring structure and clarity to your relationships. It can help you figure out your priorities as individuals, as a group, and move forward together or not. Now, how do we have those conversations? We'll talk about that after the break. This message comes from Whole Foods Market. September's always busy. Whole Foods Market can help. Their September stock up event makes it easy to load your pantry and freezer with flavorful, nourishing food. Even better, there are hundreds of sales. Get dinner going with can of soups and veggies, lean on frozen pizzas, pastas, and seafood everyone loves. In a pinch, their Build Your Own Family meal feeds four for just $35 stock up at Whole Foods Market.

6:15This message comes from Charles Schwab with their original podcast, Choiceology, hosted by Katie Milkman, an award-winning behavioral scientist and author of the best-selling book How to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind people's decisions. Here are true stories from Nobel laureates, historians, authors, athletes, and more about why people do the things they do. Download the latest episode and subscribe at Schwab.com slash podcast or wherever you listen. This message comes from Northwestern Mutual. Feeling financially overwhelmed? The right time is right now to feel more confident about your money. Northwestern Mutuals personalized planning approach and comprehensive solutions are designed to give you confidence. Their financial professionals meet you where you are and ask better questions to uncover new opportunities. Get started at nm.com, the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. This message comes from ADT. One second, you're enjoying your day off.

7:17The next, your phone buzzes, a window has been broken at home, your miles away. In one second, everything can change. That's why ADT's security systems can monitor your home 24-7. They're backed by the most company-operated monitoring centers in the industry. So you're always supported during an emergency. When every second counts, count on ADT. Visit ADT.com to learn more. I understand that conflict is a part of life, but often I find myself asking, is it worth it with this person? When do you get into it and when do you just pull back or walk away without confronting? Pre-alays out some questions. We can ask ourselves in the book. Can I continue to engage meaningfully without facing? Do I care enough about this group to take this on? Do I still have longing for this group or friendship or relationship? Is this conflict touching on a core value of mine? Does the group need to reflect those values for me to be a part of it?

8:18Knowing conflict arises in every group and relationship. Are these the people I want to be in a mess with? Do I think that by saying something, I could alter the situation? Sometimes we're in situations where we have tried. We have had conversations before. You said we don't really have the power or we've known somebody for a very long time and we've seen how they behave. We're like, Antichand old dog, Nutrix, who is just who they are. I have a section in there called Seven Reasons Not to Face. One of them is it's not a rift, it's a revelation. When people show you who they are, believe them, it's a lot of that old quote. So much of what I'm trying to invite the reader to do is to actually just become curious and to build what I call the skills of group intelligence, which is to become curious and say, what's actually happening here? Why is this happening? And in modern life, our bounty and our tragedy is that we get to choose who we want to belong to.

9:20We get to choose the groups we're in. And so one of the reasons I say this is tragedy is it's also a lot of labor. It's a lot of work. And along with all of that, it's so easy to walk away from a group or a friend. It's never been easier to exit, but over the long term, you keep exiting, right? You're going to end up pretty alone. Take away three. Choose your battles. Before you really get into it with someone, air your grievances, try to work towards a solution. Do ask yourself questions like, how much do I care about this person or this group? Can I continue to meaningfully engage without facing this? And do I think that by saying something, I could change the situation. At the same time, don't shy away from a disagreement just because you're afraid. When we have decided that someone or some group is worth fighting with, I mean, where do we begin? It's a great question. So, mentor of mine, Randa Sleem, suicide us, 90% of the success of the room, of the gathering, of the fight,

10:26happens before anyone enters. I mean, I fight people in my head all the time. Exactly. Exactly. And so part of it is preparing ourselves. Part of us is preparing the other person or the group. And part of us is preparing the room. And so if a group that you're part of or a team or an association or a family member or a wedding, something happens in a group and there's a conflict or there's a reckoning. The first thing to do is to get curious. And it's just actually ask, what is the need here? What is this actually about underneath? And be curious and humble about where that might reach you. So one of the problems is so many of us are actually, we often don't have the right fight. We're having the wrong conversation. And so, I'll give you a simple example, a friend of mine. Maybe a former friend of mine, I'm not going to label it. A person I was very close to.

11:29She was somebody who we text, we joke, sometimes we'd have virtual like teas or call. We just made an effort. And one day basically, it just kind of went cold turkey. And then I basically didn't hear much from her for like six months. And I kind of like, first I was like really mad. And I was really hurt. I was confused. You know, you go through this whole cycle. And then I was like, morning, the death of my friendship. By the way, all in my own head, but still like real feelings, real emotions. Yeah. And then one day I get a text from her, like a trippy text. And it was like, hey, it's been a while. Can we catch up? You're like, what? Where you been? So part of the art of fighting is finding a way to expand our range of options. Yeah. In that moment, do I pretend nothing happened? Right. Do I let her lead? Do I say I'm really mad? What do I say? It's actually, there's actually an infinite number of possibilities if we pause.

12:31So first of all, I feel my own feelings. Yeah. So then it's okay, Priya. What's the need here? I can't remember. She said catch up or debrief. Like I don't need a debrief. Like this is insulting. It's also like corporate speak. Yeah. My need wasn't to like catch up about our lives over the last six months. That I she didn't in my mind. I was like, she didn't get access to that. It's kind of like when an old boyfriend or lover comes back into your life with a you up text. Exactly. Exactly. Like these aren't our agreements. Yeah. And so I pause and I text it back something like, I don't know about you, but I felt a lot of like a huge loss in our friendship and a huge change over the last six months. I'm not sure a catch up or a debrief is what we need. I'd be more interested or up for a clearing. You know, three dots, three dots, three dots. Yeah. You know, she's responding. And we like sweating. Well, she was.

13:32I am. I'm sweating my heart. Spolvitating. No, I'm also mad. I also love her. You know, I'm like, oh. And all the feelings. And then she writes back something like, thanks for the good language. Like that's what I think a clearing is much better language. I've also experienced a big change. I'd be up for a clearing. Okay. And so what I did in that in that text exchange, what I was trying to do was ask, is this we're facing? Do I care about this enough to be honest about it? But the second thing is I was trying to set up the right fight. So in my language, I was saying a clearing versus a debrief to trust so that we wouldn't be like coming on the phone or however we chose to do it and be having two totally different conversations. Yeah. And so part of what I'm doing is I'm trying to like write the ship so that when we get when we're deciding to come together, it's nervous for both of us. Like neither one of us has this conversation who wants to fight who wants to go through this. We're actually both agreeing. It's almost like setting the terms. I mean, it's all informal. And so once we actually got on the phone, we both knew what we were getting on for.

14:34Hey, how did the clearing go? It went well as a clearing. It was a very, I think for me, a helpful, effective cathartic conversation to hear where she was coming from. And then I got to share where I was coming from. I think like so many of these clearings are so conversations like it doesn't always mean that you come back together again. The whole thing became a loosening of the friendship. Take away four. Before a fight, think about what you and the group or you and another person actually need in this moment. Do you need to repair old misunderstandings and hurts? Do you need to understand why a person behaved the way they did? To both of you need to state explicitly how you disagree on an issue and feel heard. You want to set the foundation ahead of time. So the other person knows what to expect and you end up having the right conversation. After the break, we talk about being direct and scheduling time to fight. This message comes from Whole Foods Market.

15:36September is always busy. Whole Foods Market can help. Their September stock up event makes it easy to load your pantry and freezer with flavorful, nourishing food. Even better, there are hundreds of sales. Get dinner going with canned soups and veggies, lean on frozen pizzas, pastas and seafood everyone loves. In a pinch, their build your own family meal feeds four for just thirty-four meals. Family meal feeds four for just thirty-five dollars stock up at Whole Foods Market. I was thinking about this. I would call myself a direct person, meaning that I'm just likely to mention things that are on my mind or say when I felt that an interaction was weird, try to get to the bottom of it. And sometimes that's well received and sometimes it is not. So I wonder how we can communicate across this divide if one person is more direct and one person isn't?

16:38I read a wonderful article by Raina Cohen in the Atlantic years ago and she looked at this question but from the perspective of basically couples who are married to each other, where one is, would call themselves direct. And the other one, like, wants the flee, right? It's sort of indirect. And one of the things that she found was that the couples in which they had totally different conflict styles because at some level what you're also talking about is directness, for a reason directness is also it's culturally relevant, right? It's also related to age, it's related to gender, it's related to workplace norms, it's related to all sorts of things. So one of the things that she found within couples who, one of them, you know, wanted to be direct and just get it out with all the time and the other one, like, never wanted to have any conversation, never was they scheduled their fights. That's sweet. And they described it as the same way as you go to a dentist for dental hygiene. You don't wait to go to a cavity, you're in a six months, it's sort of marriage hygiene.

17:39And though it might sound literally like getting, you know, your tooth taken out, it de-escalates it for the people who feel who fear conflict. They just know like, oh, this is just what we do. Like, he's not divorcing me. Yeah, it's having one of our, you know, scheduled meetings. And then for the person who, you know, feels like they, they, they really want to get stuff off their chest all the time, it allows them to have a container where they're not deeply frustrated. Because right, if you want to have a fight and something, your person's like not wanting to, then it adds a second layer, which is like, we can't even talk about the things that are important. Yeah. And so I, even though that's about a couple, part of why the art of fighting is actually about groups and looking at the context of a community is because I think in modern life, we actually need to create our own subcultures. Yeah. Friends do this, right? Inside jokes are shorthand for culture, right? The ways you hang out, the things you call yourself are shorthand for culture. And so in these longer term friendship relationships, family life, it's actually over time finding ways.

18:41I'm almost like agreements of like, can we have this conversation? Take away five people have different levels of comfort with confrontation or even mild disagreement. Some of us are more direct, some of us hold things in for longer. One way to bridge the gap is to schedule time to fight. Another way to put that is schedule time to check in on what's going well and what's going less well. Where you could support each other better or basically what grievances you have with each other. Then it becomes a practice and it gives everybody an opening to share. By the way, not every fight has to be a big deal. When somebody did something that rubbed you the wrong way, it is possible in a healthy scenario for you to tell them and them to say, I'm sorry and you both to just move on. It's like when you step on somebody's foot, right? They say, out and you say, I'm so sorry. I didn't see you there. And that's that. You know, I wonder if when we feel the impulse to fight with someone or we feel that a fight is needed.

19:43Does that always mean that they did something wrong? I can say from my experiences as a facilitator, not necessarily. I introduce this term, a meter check. And so a meter check is to actually go in and check to see if there's still actually electricity in the lamp. And so if you, if somebody is on something to you and you're not totally sure if I need to go and fight about it, like get a meter check, meaning ask someone else who you respect, who you love, not in a gossipy way to be like, Hey, like this happened. What do you think? Yeah. I guess what I'm thinking is that I like the idea of creating a space where two people can think different things, be in the world differently, have different levels of sensitivity to something. And neither one of them is like a bad person. Absolutely. A wonderful book on this is called Stibblings without rivalry. And in the prologue of this book, the author is right, something like your job is not to make your children best friends.

20:46Your job is to help teach them how to build a bridge between the islands of their different identities. So that even after they leave your home, your house, they know at any point in their life, they always know like the path to each other. And that's to me, that's all relationships. And in some cases, I may alter you because of what I said and you may think of something totally different. And in other cases, we may agree to disagree. And then we have to decide, can we still, you know, be in this friendship with being this relationship? Like closeness is a spectrum. It's not either where friends or we're not friends, right? A friend of mine has a mentor who offers tells her you can be in relationship with anyone at the right distance. And it's your job to figure out what the distance is for that person. So it's not saying everyone's your best friend or everyone's your enemy, right? It's also this is again, fortunately, unfortunately, these are skills that will help us in modern life. Priya, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. Okay, y'all time for a recap.

21:47Take away one conflict, not necessarily a bad thing. Priya argues it's actually necessary if you want to be in close and authentic relationships. When you have a moment of misalignment with someone, think of it as a signal. There's something here to talk about. Take away two healthy conflict can bring structure and clarity to your relationships. Take away three, choose your battles before you really get into it with someone. Ask yourself questions like how much do I care about this person or this group? Can I continue to meaningfully engage without facing this? And do I think that by saying something, I could change the situation. At the same time, don't shy away from a disagreement just because you're afraid. Take away four before a fight. Think about what you and the group or you and another person actually need at this moment. You want to set the table ahead of time. So the other person knows what to expect and you end up having the right conversation. And take away five people have different levels of comfort with confrontation. Some of us are more direct, some of us hold things in.

22:50One way to bridge the gap is to schedule time to fight. Also, remember just because you're upset with someone or they're upset with you, doesn't mean that one of you is a bad person or even that one of you did something wrong. Sometimes that's the case, but sometimes you're just two different people with different ways of being in the world. And you get to decide how close you want to be. That's our show. If Life Kit is a part of your weekly ritual, why not make it official on the NPR app? You'll hear about every episode the moment it's ready. Just turn on notifications and we'll handle the rest. See you there. Download the NPR app today. This episode of Life Kit was produced by Kayla Latimore. Our digital editor is Monica Grieb and our visuals editor is CJ Ricalon. Megan Cain is our senior supervising editor and Lauren Gonzalez is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Andy Tagle, Margaret Serena and Sylvie Douglas. Engineering support comes from Peter Alina. I'm Mary Elstegarra. Thanks for listening.

23:56This message comes from Mint Mobile. If you're tired of spending hundreds on big wireless bills, bogus fees and free perks, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop plans at MintMobile.com slash switch. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. This message comes from Northwestern Mutual. Their financial professionals ask better questions to uncover blind spots and new opportunities you may not have considered. Get started at nm.com, the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. This message comes from Charles Schwab with their original podcast, Choiceology. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind people's decisions. Download the latest episode and subscribe at Schwab.com slash podcast.