Trustless Swaps Across Bitcoin Layers | Walter Maffione SLP772

0:00Hi everyone, welcome back to Stefan Levere podcast joining me on the show today is Walter Maffi only CEO and founder or co-founder of Collider swap which is a swapping platform welcome to the show Walter. Hey, thanks for arguing me. So Walter tells a bit about yourself and now you have a little bit of a background but obviously you're a young guy people might not have heard of you. Sure, so I'm a software engineer. I had a few years of experience on the I field and then I found Bitcoin a few years ago and then three years ago I decided to work on collider swap that basically is a DEX on the lighting network. So we're going to offer a swap on the lighting network. Yeah, and as I understand you started more on the RGB side as in collider swap started on the RGB side but now you're going to expand it out. Talk to us a bit about that which layers are you going to offer? Sure, so basically yeah, we started with with RGB layer so we started with the deal to offer swaps around RGB but then we decided that probably was make sense to expand to other layers

1:02on lighting and on the Bitcoin layers and so basically right now we are building this swap provider also connecting lighting to liquid to arcade, tap up tasks and maybe other arcs that came out later and so the deal here is to have lightening as the commor rails between any of these layers from Bitcoin and so we're going to offer swaps off Bitcoin but also other assets like stablecoins or in the future for example real with assets. Interesting and so yeah just for listeners who are maybe a bit newer or trying to learn a bit more what's what's going on here is there a different let's call it last mile technologies that people are using and some of them might be on liquid and arc and spark and lightening and so and so some of these some of these things maybe they might be used in the background by the wallet or the app provider but the end user doesn't have to know he just kind of clicks a button hits sand hits receive he doesn't really think about it too much. Can you talk to us a bit about that from your perspective on colliders swap do you see do you see

2:03it being like that where maybe a lot of the businesses or like developers and APIs will kind of use you guys and then the end users will kind of use you but they won't they don't actually know they're using you. Yeah sure so basically we are building a full infrastructure here so we're going to have our own lighting service provider so our own lsp that we're going to offer lighting channels and liquidity on lighting in general as normal lsp and on top of that we're going to run our own as well provider and here basically we're going to have our own liquidity for a liquid for arcade and for other layers and you can interact with our swap provider in different ways. So the first way will be a web application similar for what bots was doing so there will be a web app where people can go there create this what they want to do pay and receive immediately with an atomic swap they're asked that they want to receive but the other way to interact does is using by using our SDK so we have our own SDK where wallet providers or exchange or any other

3:06people interested in implementing swaps can just use the and offer the user connection with other layers so for example if you don't want if you don't want to support sepulcoins for example but the merchant will accept sepulcoins a user can provide a developer can implement our SDK and people that just want to pay on Bitcoin can immediately pay the the invoice for example for where's the tea on on lighting but by just by just paying on Bitcoin by using our SDK so this is a basically different there are different ways to implement and to connect to our swap provider but yeah gotcha so as I read it then like you said there may be different uses where let's say a merchant wants to take payment and maybe that merchant he has fear builds to pay so he wants to take stablecoin but the Bitcoin payer wants to pay with lightning or Bitcoin so it's like Bitcoin and lightning in and then like maybe tether or usdt or some stablecoin out in RGB liquid, taprata sets etc so that's kind of one of the models and then I guess the other common model might be some of these

4:08wallets or apps that want to have a unified balance they just want to show you one balance they don't want to confuse the user with like oh here's your liquid balance here's your this and that they just want to have one balance and you can just pay or receive into that and then in the background there's swaps so what you're saying then is collider swap can be the swap provider for that app right yeah any layers have different needs different trade-offs so for example the unified balance is something also we are looking for to experiment a bit for example in our web extension so we built this web extension to test our our technology and here basically user can pay on lightning and then for example decide if there are not advanced users okay I want to receive on Spark or I want to receive on our kit because for example on our kit in the future there will be more advanced finance where you can put example of governance so you want to do more advanced tech or you just want to to receive on Spark because you want to pay and with with low fees and let's say immediately so yeah there are different ways where people can can use this web provider and in

5:13general is is a needed fee things on lighting so we saw for example after both shut down that a lot of different wallets and applications they didn't have the the lighting capabilities anymore because it was one of the main let's say provider and let's say party on the lighting network so we saw nowadays that swaps are needed for a better lighting in general to connect different layers I see and so part of that is the app developers and infrastructure developers want to provide a simple user experience for the end user and that end user doesn't want us to deal with channels and you know opening and closing channels and doing all these kind of more technical things and so this swap method became very popular I would say so it's kind of like I'd say moon wallet was really popular with this in like 2022 ish and then what happened is we saw a whole slew of other wallets like aqua wallet breeze SDK and you know and others kind of using that idea but doing it with liquid or now now we're seeing a bunch of walls doing it with Spark as well like wallet

6:15of satoshi blink and you know probably others too so I guess that's kind of an example of where things are going now on the I guess on the side of doing some of these swaps you the provider obviously you have to have liquidity on both sides right you have to have like let's say you have to hold some tether on each of those chains or you have to hold some bitcoin on each of those layers let's say and then you're you're providing the swap in and out right yeah yeah exactly so we basically have to manage all this liquidity also for example rebarrence our self the liquidity when for example one of their out is out of liquidity so there are a lot of technicalities to do so that's why also for example after both shut down no one was replacing them because it's definitely not easy to run as well provider 24 seven on the latin network we are building it for a while so hopefully in one or two months we're gonna start the launching it in on the wild so we are now live on on

7:15on sig net network so we are finishing our test and this week basically we start we're gonna start testing on mainnet so we are almost out to launch yeah and so just to listen is to unfamiliar there's you know bitcoin there's mainnet which is where most of us are using there's test net there's like reg test and signet which is kind of like a testing playground area so that's where it is right now just for listeners and then let's talk a bit about the security part right so obviously bolster exchange we're undergoing some ai assisted attacks they had to take their service down i think they have now kind of sold the business to somebody some other people who are gonna take it on but obviously the question remains are you vulnerable to the exact same kinds of ai assisted attacks that they were yeah so definitely in general we i mean if you if you run as well providing lighting you are one of the central point on the like network so you receive a lot of attention from any party out there that wants to steal your money also we found in these days that a lot of vulnerabilities came out taught for example out of liquid so we saw a lot of funds that were

8:22stolen from the liquid federation also for lighting and going to be so in general at these days were definitely hard for bitcoin so it was a tough summer this year so hopefully we're gonna see that basically the tools that the defenders can use will be the same of the attackers that wasn't in let's say these days because we saw that the new Chinese models that doesn't they don't have basically guidelines to for example like the same safe guards or whatever that would stop them from solving problems for exactly so it's definitely easier to attack than to defend but we saw now the for example for the big red teams that the defenders now are keeping it hard and trying to let's say have better tools for defend themselves so for example some pipeline we're integrating in our infrastructure is daily routines where basically we track any any dependencies we have and trying to see if there are new vulnerabilities for example in the tools we are using or for

9:22example in the tech or the layers that are there so hopefully after let's say these events Bitcoin tax will become stronger and also will be we come easier to defend tools like as well providing or lighting or in general on LSP so I'm bullish that we're gonna have the same tools that the attackers are have right now and so I think in the future yeah will be easier to defend also not not only to get the tax but yeah some of my discussions with people they've mentioned that maybe the model of operating has to shift a bit because some of these because bolts dot exchange the way they did it was it was atomic maybe some of those losses were being borne by the bolts dot exchange team and then I guess obviously you guys are going to be in a similar camp right that you are going to be offering some of these atomic swaps how do you defend yourself from the attackers you know in those cases where they might try to try to griffy or actually steal your money yeah so there are different ways to defend so for example one of them

10:28can be for example get have an iron fees for having a swap like this because basically you are you are receiving the funds in a no ks away and non-castle way so I think that let's say atomic swap is something we still need because otherwise we're gonna end out with some custodial exchange so people can go on finance for example to to make a swap so I think we still need some non custodial swaps in general lighting because that's the main core of of the business because people doesn't want to to to lose their funds so I think atomic swaps are needed but for example here there things like get iron fees or for example there are other solutions like not fully open source everything of the of the tech probably this is something I mean we still have to decide if you're gonna do it or not but in general you is is harder to to attack some code or tech you you don't see but still maintaining the same feature like non custodial land and that atomicity on the swaps

11:32so yeah I mean it will be hard to to defend itself but we will try our best to do let's see here and then in terms of the atomic swaps as you're offering them so if you listen to atomic bit of a it's an industry term or it gets thrown around I mean it's it predates this industry obviously but the point is that both legs of a trade are locked to the same secret so it might be a pre-image pre-image of a hash you reveal the secret and then both sides claim it or if it stalls so the ideas you might they might have entered the kind of they might have said I'm going to enter this trade but then it stalls out and then the ideas that are refunds back out after a time out that's kind of like the loose generalized understanding can you talk to us a bit about how you are implementing atomic swaps yeah so basically that's the thing so there is this shadow secret that that can be for example the lighting pre-image of a payment that basically wraps both leg of a swaps so for example a summary swaps have a bitcoinscript where you have this ash of a secret and the secret

12:36is the is the pre-image of a lighting swaps so basically when you when you pay an invoice for example lighting you reveal the pre-image but you you basically cannot the pay your the people you you are sending the funds cannot settle the funds until you reveal the pre-image and when you reveal this pre-image basically you can it can settle the other legs so for example you can get the funds on chain by using that pre-image so basically there is this share the secret that locks the funds until a payment arrives or you can get the funds back if the payment don't arrive basically yeah and then there are different layers involved here right because it's liquid spark arc RGB and I guess each of those has a slightly different flavor of how it works right so I guess obviously Bitcoin to lightning that's one thing because it's all you know that all either is on chain in bitcoin or it can go on chain but in the case of some of these others it's a little different isn't it so yeah for for RGB is almost the same because RGB works like can work on chain or on

13:42lighting so use the same primitives of Bitcoin on chain and Bitcoin lighting so for RGB is basically the same scripts for liquid is a little bit different but even liquid have the same primitives of of Bitcoin so you can use Bitcoin scripts even on liquid so also there there is more complexity for for example confidential transaction but in general yeah that's the same primitives while on arcade is different scripts so because arcade have its own new viewtics and weird politics are script so you can you can build back their track there because you have more feature you you can experiment but let's say the primitives are almost the same so there is always the same let's say some of these bobs technology that bots were using so basically what we are doing is expand a little bit the tech from from balls by adding other layers and also supporting the different assets so what we are what we are trying to do also we're gonna open source our protocol

14:42because we think the idea here is to have a common tech a common spec that other people can implement themselves because we think that a standard is something needed on lighting for for as well provider so for example what we are also searching a bit is for example using bold 12 for having bold 12 as a standard and having assets inside a bold 12 offer so for example you just see an offer but if you support for example RGB you can also see the metadata that encodes the RGB assets inside the the bold 12 offer so also that is something we we're gonna look for and yeah the the protocol is something multiple providers can implement themselves and for example if we speak the same language a wall let's can see multiple providers seeing for example offers and decide for example I want to use this provider because it has better fees or I want to use that provider because I know them and I know that they are doing the the tech really great and this is also similar on what arcade is doing with the new intents they released so they basically released this new way to

15:46implement this bobson arcade after the bots shut down and basically similar to what we are following so there are multiple providers they are for example discovering themself on Noster so they're using Noster as these for for wallet as well providers to publish themself publish their fees and the wall let's can see multiple offers from different providers and they decide basically which one they want to swap with yeah interesting there's a lot in there so let's try to unpack a little bit of that so what you're talking about there is not Noster as the kind of the decentralized Twitter it's Noster more like for let's say discovery or connecting and understanding oh that's Walter you know let's let's say that's Walter's n pub that's his Noster idea that Stefan's n pub and then what you're also talking about there is like I guess this idea of bolt 12 as a way to then understand okay let's say I'm doing a trade with you I try to you know open your bolt 12 ID and then inside of that it might say oh hey my first preference is RGB so if you can pay me RGB pay me on that but if you

16:51can't pay me on RGB okay how about liquid this kind of is that loosely yeah people can use Noster for for example you want to say okay I want to swap a ten-USDT for Bitcoin so you send this message on Noster and the this wall providers can offer your fees so they all receive this message you say okay these are the fees that you you can receive by offering these wops and here is my bolt 12 offer you can pay me so I can receive on different layers so you decide where to want to receive and basically you can use this bolt 12 as standard for encoding their multiple multiple assets so also for example people that want to receive funds they can say okay I prefer to receive to receive Bitcoin on lighting but if you don't have Bitcoin on lighting you can receive Bitcoin on liquid or you can receive USB to your RGB and all of all of this information can be encoded in a single bolt 12 offer and so with this bolt 12 offer you basically can can receive anything on lighting yeah and so again because this podcast is for the more intermediate and

17:54advanced listeners but for it this could sound confusing for like an end user or beginner but the idea is it's kind of for them it's going to be more like scan and just pay it right it might just be like this number of sets pay it and in the background all this stuff is happening you know swapping this and swapping to this layer and that or to tether or back or into stablecoin and this and that but it's kind of the end user a lot of it can be abstracted away so I think that's that's kind of an interesting quality of this method exactly it's basically you can pay whatever you want and receive whatever you want and all this tech is basically used for let's say having a universal way to receive funds and also to pay so you don't need to let's say support all these layers or know about how arcade works or how liquid works you just need basically to implement or the wallet providers just have to implement this SDK and basically they're gonna have all these features integrated in the wallet so you're gonna be able to pay whatever you want aside as I said it speaks Bitcoin tech so it can be on Bitcoin on lighting or whatever the

18:59main thing is that it's gonna be on Bitcoin interesting and then the other thing obviously the kind of elephant in the room is tons of people use tether and I don't know the exact number but just colloquially I think most of the tether usage nowadays is still on Ethereum and Tron so what happens there like is there a way that those users can swap and so let's say people you know is that something you would offer like a swap in from USDT Ethereum or USDT on Tron so that they can then take Bitcoin or tether liquid tether or something else so connection to a web Tron or Solana is not something we're gonna offer right now so here is we say we are different aside what bots was doing so we're gonna focus only on Bitcoin layers but for example for on our web extension we are using a flashnet for having connection with a web and this kind of stool so basically you need to put a three flashnet then. Exactly so for example people can deposit for for example USDT

20:03from polygon or from Tron and receive immediately Bitcoin on Spark by using a flashnet here but the idea basically is that there are other providers that gonna offer tools for connection for example for Ethereum to RGB so for example Texas is the company that is gonna provide the stablecoins tether on RGB and they are building this bridge where people can go there deposit USD on Ethereum and immediately get USDT on RGB so we're gonna basically use them for as a tool for letting people's whoops from these layers to Bitcoin so I think we're gonna have USDT on RGB is basically you can you can use a tether on Bitcoin on Tron or decide to also use it on lighting and that's let's say what we change everything because on lighting you benefit of the privacy of the lighting network and also the faster cheaper yeah yeah yeah gotcha so I guess simple answer is you will have

21:04there will be other players in the ecosystem who are supporting that whether that is flashnet on the Spark side or UTexo on the RGB side and then they will kind of have the other change support and then that's how users can kind of interoperate a little bit and swap it in and swap around to whatever wallet they want if they want to do an RGB wallet or if they want a lighting wallet or if they want to have a whatever else yeah we just focus single on Bitcoin layers so we don't want to touch solidity or Solana I don't know about that tech I want to focus on Bitcoin only and so that's why we decided to focus on that and expand to let's say other companies they need for that yeah and then from a clitus swap perspective from your company talk to us a bit about so are you going to have a wallet and then you so you got you mentioned the SDK are you going to also have your own wallet and then are you also going to do I think you mentioned a web extension as well so talk to us a bit about the the product suite from your side yeah so we also have our own product suite so we started originally with a desktop application that was basically built as an

22:09interface to an RGB lighting node because basically we started as we said for on RGB and on RGB basically you can run a lighting node that support RGB assets is basically a fork of LDK that is one of the implementation of the lighting node is basically not written in the last language and we built this desktop app for let's say connecting to to this node and the desktop application is connected to our as well provider so there are people basically can receive new channels makes whoops on lighting for example Bitcoin to stablecoins is still on testnet because RGB lighting is still on testnet but that is one of the the product we built and is is going to be live on mainnet and let's say tether and RGB lighting is going to go live on mainnet so that's one product and then we have other two products that is one the web extension that is currently already live on mainnet because basically it supports multi layer to wallet so right now on the extension that is in in a cross beta but it's going to be public as let's say web store on on Chrome so it will be

23:13extension similar to metamask but focusing on your bitcoin layers is supporting spark network liquid network bitcoin on chain RGB on chain and arcade so these are right now the layers are already live people can just compile a form and get a link to download the extension so is in close beta but it's going to be both open source and public in the stores and the extension is basically similar to alby wallet so people can use the extension to receive funds or lighting or connect the extension for example to web application for trading or for example I don't know decentralized application like dApps or a prediction market whatever so it's like the interface of a layer choose for web application and with the same text so basically with the web application we build this SDK for a wallet so we have two SDKs one is the swap SDK and one other is the wallet SDK so you can use both two SDKs and combine them together to build

24:18whatever app you want so for the future probably we're going to use this SDKs to also build the mobile app because the interface is the same the code will be almost the same between the web extension and the mobile application so for the future we're going to try also to have this mobile application share almost the code with the extension but you can also you have the same experience on on a mobile phone so this is the full let's say architecture of Kalaytazoo yeah and then on the wallet SDK is that designed as like Bitcoin lighting plus all of the other layers that you have like so liquid and arc and spark and RGB all in one like wallet is that the goal or is it more like I guess you can use it to do that but the developer can choose which ones he wants to enable if he only wants it if you want or two or three of those yeah exactly is the second one so you can decide whatever you want so for our application we basically decide okay we're gonna let's say use all of them but what I think the the best user experience will be to basically decide based

25:19on the user so the user at the beginning we're gonna respond some of you questions so are you advanced user or are you a light user or let's say junior user based on this basically you can design the interface so if you if you are not familiar with all these layers choose so you don't know how to how it works arcade or or liquid you're gonna have one single wallet with one single balance and you're gonna receive only on light ring but for example there is just whopping between so it's a really easy interface well if you're an advanced user and you want to manage your own channels or for example you want to decide where to want to receive funds or you want to receive on light ring but on the arcade balance for example you're gonna be able to do this store this is what I think is the best thing because any user have different needs and so by just responding on a few questions you're gonna have an user experience based on the user needs yeah now agentec payments right this is the other kind of big obviously AI is like the super hot

26:23topic nowadays everyone's talking about it everyone's investing in it what is your view on agentec payments is that something you will enable on the cloudless website yeah so I have experience on the I so I studied the computer science on the I so I think the the connection between Bitcoin and I is something that is really interesting and is always a passionate me in general yes this is something we already were looking for and we are ready experimental bit so for example on the SDK there is already some MCPs libraries where basically you can ask Claude or your own AI to basically for example connecting or buying new liquidity from an LSP so you just chat with your bot and asking to buy a new channel for you or make a swap for you so this is something we are ready support and it's already live so for example in the in the desktop application there is a section already defined for for this section and also in the SDK in our docs there is all the documentation for this so this is something so basically let your wallet being able to

27:25use from a chat experience or from your voice but the other things that is in my opinion is really interesting is the self-sauve and AI so basically we participate to the kuba cacaton so kuba is this tools and SDK built from from TETER that basically let people and developers to run their own models in their own device so for example you can run smaller models like 8 billion parameters LLMs or 16 billion lMs and basically you can use these LLMs in your own hardware for doing the financial application you want so for example instead of asking Claude or open AI to make a swap or to pay a friend you can just ask your own AI locally since these are simple task smaller model can manage it and so in the future we see like also some area where we can expand these for example fine tuning these models because we by experimenting with these models we find out

28:25that for example the real real is more modern are not capable to understand the difference for example from satoshi's to bitcoin or understand what's a lightning in voice so by fine tuning a model with some bitcoin data you can let's say have a smaller LLMs that is really capable and I can understand the really well what's Bitcoin what's lightning what are these Bitcoin layers and then you can use this model whatever you want so for example you can run on your own smartphone or there is also for example for Cuba Cuba Caffeeshru where the model can run in let's say an hardware like your own laptop and so the inference is in the laptop that is that have better capabilities more RAM more CPUs more GPUs and you connect from your own mobile phone through the laptop so basically that you can ask questions from the phone for example saying can you pay Bob 10 sets and their inference is run locally in your laptop and then give back the answer to the

29:26phone so these are all areas we are looking for and for example we made a few videos of this so on our mobile application that we build for an hackathon there is a red disintegrated so there is a voice feature implemented where the user can talk to his own wallet and all the inference runs locally on the phone or you can delegate to the desktop application and for example you can pay friends on on not sir you can generate invoice and whatever so I think AI and Bitcoin are definitely something they're gonna join together and for sure agentic payments for the future will be something so giving what let's possibility to to receive funds so AI can pay it and whatever I think is something really cool for the future yes one of those things that there's tons of talk about it maybe it's not quite reality yet for a lot of people but I think it's definitely coming it's the question of what does it look like right I think as an example even with personal agents today right whether it's open-claw, urmers, meta, muse or grokbot right that seems to be like

30:32kind of more the retail focus like a lot of normal people like if normal people use Facebook then maybe they'll use meta muse and that would be their personal agent that they use to I don't know make a booking for a restaurant for their family or paid for the gym membership or you know whatever and then maybe that's how they're going to coordinate some of those payments on the let's say the retail side of the house and then maybe on the business side it's more like you know it's multimedia enterprises who are setting up agentic payments and you know I guess the question is what is the shape of this gonna be right what is it what is the practical way that it's gonna happen for a lot of people for the you know for the masses yeah so I think in general there are different ways here you can you can have so I think one great user experience is to for example being able to end a wallet with your voice or let's say experiment a bit for example for for lighting in general so lighting is complex for example based on the user if you are a lighting not a lighting not

31:33the runner that is not the masses but of course it's something really difficult to do you can use the eye for for this and it will definitely help you if you are a normal bit-cane user that you just want to use a bit-cane wallet AI can help you to for example understand what you are doing or pay your friends with your voice so there are different UX improvements for for the users in general but as a main things for let's say book your flights with with bitcoins I think that is more an enterprise and institutional level integration where basically we we are seeing now that there are new standards coming out for payments for example the new alpha-2 protocol so in general it wasn't used before Bitcoin and then now with AI it came out also in the standard fee at word out there so I think alpha-2 for example is something where Bitcoin companies working with enterprise can integrate a lot and so Bitcoin will be another payment rails on top of that so

32:35there will be needs for example for payment providers so to integrate Bitcoin to these rails because agentic payments or AI will use these tools for making payments so I add a bit-cane on top of that is definitely something needed for having it's payments on on a and there is there will be the wallet interface where basically you need to interact and connect with this protocol so there are different ways here where we should interact with the fee at word yeah so I guess is what from a collider to what perspective what is the agentic payments thing going to look like is it an MCP thing is it something else like what thing are the agentic payments you know the models are they going to call from the collider swap side to do the swaps or payments yeah so it will just basically be a plugin to the SDK where basically wallet providers instead of manually understanding the PI's or managing the PI can use the AI plugin

33:35where basically they just have these MCPs or for example some skills MD so you can teach your own AI how to use the SDK and basically they're going to be able to for example have an interface for the user where they want to make swaps or they want to receive USDT payments instead of having bit-compayments or connecting with each other and basically being able to connect via chat interface or via voice interface so basically there are plugins to connect to our infrastructure and to our swaps provider but not only the IPIs but also via voice or via chat so these are one of the main thing and in the future there will be the the focus on save software and AI because also that is something an opinion will be really interesting because also financial data is really important and you don't want to give all your information about your payment to open an i or cloud or ontropic so by maintaining your own AI infrastructure that understands Bitcoin is something we we're going

34:36to focus on the future because that also is another step for being a full-size software individual so you maintain your own swaps your own liquidity your own assets but also your own AI yeah fascinating to see where that stuff's going and you know how quickly the open-weight models are kind of keeping up with the closed frontier lab models and things like this obviously that's a very hot competition and it's kind of very quickly changing so that's so that's all there I guess in terms of final few questions for you give people an idea on the fees people pay to use collider swap swaps so they're going to be the same of what they are used to when there was both so depending on their out where we still need to decide each pairs each because on each layers you for example also as we have to balance up on channels or making splicing so also depending on the on-chain fees but it will be around 0.5% or on 1% if we in code source for example stable coins on it but it depends we still have to decide looking at the market and they say but

35:41we'll be up to 0.5 to 1% ish is the range and then and then you know it's a win so you mentioned earlier like main net so give people a timeline of when they can see a collider swap on main net so there are different architectural here that are going to arrive on different timelines so for example the extension we're going to arrive sooner probably next month is going to be live and open source so people can already download the web application and using it while for this world provider we are at let's say starting now to test the domain net so the info is fully ready on on signal networks so hopefully in november we're going to start launching on on main net and we're going to launch with a few wallets that we already talked with that they're going to support our swap provider and then the for example web application we're going to launch probably in December or in the coming days so we're going to start first with a few wallets that start implementing

36:42swaps with us and then launching the web application for the full users out there okay so it's basically over the next one to three months you've got a bunch of things coming out so yeah I think we'll leave it there so listen and check it out it's a swap provider for swapping in Bitcoin and Lightning but it's various Bitcoin players and lastly working people find you what's the website yeah so the website is colliderswap.com there you can find all the products we we've all grown now we also have a telegram community at t.me slash colliderswap so yeah if you have questions or want to try our tools our software just let us know also we are on next at Caledoswap so yeah reach out and we are happy to talk about what you are doing excellent all right listen check it out there's Walter from colliderswap thanks for joining me thank you very much