Trump’s Iran war drags on with 60 days until midterms (Pt. 2)

0:00Join MS now live in Texas for our biggest event yet with Rachel Maddo, Jen Zaki, Michael Steele and more MS now live together in Texas. September 26th, get tickets today at ms.now slash together. Today a federal judge in Massachusetts issued a ruling extending a block that will prevent the postal service from doing Donald Trump's bidding and interfering with mail-in ballots. The New York Times reports, Judge Indira Talwani had already temporarily blocked the U.S. postal service from moving forward in a ruling that was set to expire September 10th. The new order extends that block indefinitely. Like in her two previous rulings, she wrote that the rule appeared to exceed the postal services statutory authority by assigning broad authority to the service to regulate election mail beyond what lawmakers intended. She added that with each passing week, it had become increasingly unrealistic to expect

1:02states to be able to comply. Today's ruling comes as North Carolina mailed out the first ballots of the midterms today. And remember, there are just 60 days until the midterm elections. And amid Trump's meddling with mail-in ballots, there is a new warning about paying attention not just to what the president is doing with his power, but to what the rest of us are doing with ours. Sky Perryman, president and CEO of Democracy Forward titles her latest New York Times opinion piece. Our democracy is at stake. Stop waiting for a savior. Perryman, who will join us in a moment, argues that Americans cannot wait for a political hero, the courts, Congress, or a single election to do the work of preserving democracy for us. And he writes, our democracy is in danger, but we can save it. We are the only ones who ever have. Instead of waiting for a night and shining armor political candidate, hoping he or she

2:03will do the hard work for us, or worse, disengaging when a candidate or political movement disappoints us, we must continue to look at ourselves. Nothing is handed down by political leaders without the people demanding it. We must do so again. Perryman says, we must do something. And not just posting on social media or talking politics with friends, she continues. Many of us confuse consuming political news, engaging on social media and participating in group chats with doing the things that we as individuals can do to help change our country's trajectory. Instead of doom scrolling, we can organize our neighbors, work at local polling places or join community groups. We must not be satisfied with watching the decline of American democracy from our phones. That argument echoes an earlier warning from the New York Times editorial board about what happens when an elected party becomes unwilling to leave power.

3:07The editorial board writes, the surest sign of democratic collapse is the unwillingness of an elected political party to leave office. The party rewrites laws and changes election rules to prevent its opponents from gaining power. The shift often starts slowly that can ultimately end in autocracy. President Trump has taken worrisome steps down this path since returning to office in January 2025. He has demonstrated that he prioritizes his own interests over the national interests. He is often willing to defy bipartisan traditions and even act illegally. It remains unclear how far Mr. Trump will go this fall. If the president succeeds in preventing the results, he will be emboldened to take similar unconstitutional steps in 2028. And that raises another question. What happens when a president leaves? David from takes up that question in the Atlantic, saying that political power doesn't

4:09necessarily disappear when the presidency ends. From focuses on Trump's financial gains while in office and he writes, Trump has abused his office to enrich himself and his family in ways that are completely unprecedented, not only in the United States, but also in the history of almost any peer democracy. The fortunes, the fame and the following bequeath by corrupt rulers to their heirs can support authoritarian power grabs long after the corrupt ruler departs this earth. If the Trump family can keep the money, it has accumulated this term. The next generation of Trumps will be far richer than Donald Trump ever was until his 80th year. Americans traditionally let bygones be gut bygones after a president leaves office on the theory that ex-presidents rarely cause much trouble. But the money is power in politics and dirty money needs power to protect itself from the law.

5:09As much as Americans may wish to forget the Trumps and their corruption after this presidency ends, the next generation of Trumps surely understands that political power is its surest defense against legal retribution. This makes recovering the Trumps wrongfully obtained wealth not only a matter of justice, but also a matter of democratic survival. Now, of course, the White House claims the Trump family has no conflicts of interest. So there's the question of what Trump is doing with his presidential power now. There's the question of what happens when that power ends. And then there's the most literal expression of Trump's obsession in what he leaves behind. The monuments. The New Yorker calls it, quote, the architecture of autocracy and describes how a coterie of advisors, planners, and architects is enabling the president's passion project and renovating DC in his own image.

6:09The New Yorker has documented Trump's fixation with transforming Washington from his massive ballroom replacing the White House East Wing to the proposed 250 foot arch near Arlington National Cemetery. And when a reporter asked Trump who the arch was for, Trump said, and I quote, me. It doesn't get more self-serving than that. The New Yorker writes, there is all the difference in the world between the sublimation of self into a heritage and the amplification of the ego into a monument. But here's the thing, Trump's efforts are meant to rupture the relationship Americans have with their capital. The land, its monuments and its structures don't belong to Trump. They belong to the nation. They are a reflection of us, not of him. And yet with each improvement, Trump replaces our collective, small, de-democratic values with his expressions of a golden, crusted greed that reflects his own egomania and

7:15goddess sensibilities. Georgia Democratic Senator John Asuf put it this way. He's trying to put his face on the money. Did you see that? He's building a monument to himself. But see, Atlanta, he's doing these things now because no one will honor him when he's gone. Because he's a failed president and a national disgrace. Trump was asked about that comment by New York magazine and oddly enough, he agreed with Senator Asuf saying, quote, that's true. Nobody will do it once I'm gone. When I leave here, nobody will. You think?

8:16But it's an astonishingly candid answer. Here's some American history Trump probably doesn't know. 65 years ago, another two term president, Dwight Eisenhower, offered a very different answer, a work hero with an enormous historical legacy. Eisenhower did not use his farewell address to tell Americans how history should remember him. So in this My Last Good Night to You is your president. I thank you for the many opportunities you have given me for public service in war and in peace. I trust in that in that service. You find some things worthy. As for the rest of it, I know you will find ways to improve performance in the future. You and I, my fellow citizens, need to be strong in our faith that all nations under God will reach the goal of peace with justice. May we be ever unswerving in devotion to principle.

9:19Confident but humble with power. Diligene and pursuit to the nation's great goals. That was Eisenhower's farewell address on January 17, 1961. His speech wasn't about demanding that history remember him. It was about what citizens should demand for themselves, which brings us back to sky-paramins central warning. It cannot depend on waiting on a savior. It depends on what citizens are willing to do themselves. Our democracy is in danger, but we can save it. We are the only ones who ever have. Leading off our discussion tonight is sky-paramins, president and CEO of democracy forward sky. Before we talk more about that, I want to get your reaction to a federal judge extending a block on Trump's new mail-in voting rules with the midterms just 60 days away. What should voters understand about what's at stake this November?

10:20Well, everything's at stake for ourselves, for our communities and for our democracy. To dismantle a democracy, a leader has to dismantle democratic institutions and they have to consolidate their power. And this midterm election is about making sure that this president does not consolidate his power and that the people check his power. And I think that's what you're going to see. I also say that it's not surprising that this federal judge has issued an order against what the president is seeking to do with the postal service. He simply does not have the authority to regulate elections to do what he wants to do through the postal service. And I think it's important for everyone paying attention because there's so much chaos everywhere to understand that every single federal court that has considered what this administration is seeking to do with the elections has said that it is unlawful and we saw that again today. Sky, in your New York Times opinion piece, you write, quote, waiting for a savior has led many of us not to exercise the greatest power we have, our own. What do you want Americans who are watching everything this administration is doing and

11:24feel powerless about the power they actually have? Well, the first thing that we want people to know is that they do have power. But if you're feeling powerless, there's no shame in that. There is a system and work in this country, the president and his allies with a lot of power that are trying to isolate it and alone and without power. And we have to reject that and shift our mindset away from being kind of spectators where you're just having to look at all this chaos every day and into how we can take action. Jonathan, you know, I just wrote a new book, ordinary people extraordinary times, a guy for all of us in that book has resources about what people can do to take action in this time. And of course, so many organizations out there are putting resources out. But what we want every single American to do is to make up their mind that they matter, that their community matters and that our country matters and to then to ask what is one thing? What are two things? What is one thing or two things? Small repeatable steps that you can do every day.

12:25And roll disclosure, I've read your book. We did a book event on Martha's Vineyard, gosh, was that just last week or two weeks ago? It was just last week, yeah. It was just just last week. But it really is how to guide for anybody who wants to just dip in or do bigger things with sky. What does meaningful action look like for the average American who is asking what am I to do? Well, right now we need you to first of all remember if you're not alone, that a lot of people across the country are feeling this way. And even if you feel alone, you're not alone. Secondly, we do have these elections coming up. We need you to check and make sure you are registered to vote. You can do that at vote411.org, which is a great resource that the League of Women and Voters has put together. And we need you to check because there's so much confusion going on about whether people are registered or not. So go check your voter registration, keep checking it, make sure you're registered to vote, and then do more than that. You know, encourage your friends to vote and make me know, sit right by.

13:26I'm going to make them check their registration and to make sure that they're registered to vote. And then of course, if you're able, you can get information about how to be a poll worker. The elections in this country, even though the president doesn't want them to be, they are run by the people. They are run by people in communities. And so we're encouraging everyone to get engaged if you can. But of course, make sure that you're registered to vote and voting. At Democracy Forward, the organization, as you know, I lead. We have 100 days of action hub. People can go to democracyforward.org. You can see all the different actions that you can take to plug in. Not everybody has to do everything, but all of us have to do something and there's something for each of us to do. They're the quote from your grandmother. Basically, don't just stand there. Pick up a shovel. Pick up a shovel. Pick up a shovel. Pick up a shovel. Sky, there was a major development today in the lawsuit. Democracy Forward File Against the Administration over the Trump's $1.8 billion anti-weaponization fund, a federal magistrate judge ordered the Trump administration to reveal the identities

14:27of the people who devise the plan. So what's the reaction to that order and what do you want? What do you want to know about the people behind this proposal? Well, first of all, we want to make sure this proposal stays blocked. If it is blocked, the slush fund is blocked, and that's because of brave clients and our lawyers that went to court to block it. We are also challenging the president's attempt to be immune from IRS scrutiny in the same lawsuit. But it's really important that the American people understand what's going on and what their government is doing and who is behind these schemes. You talked in your opening about the importance of accountability and accountability, not just right now, but accountability also in the future. We want to send a message that if you're going to aid in a debt, a corrupt administration that is seeking to harm the American people, your name is going to be revealed. You can't hide in this time. We're all out there. And what we have to do is decide what we are going to do in this time. And I think that you see the courts continuing to help the American people shine a light on

15:29what is going on. We are going to help and continue to litigate this case to make sure that slush fund remains blocked. It is not only corrupt, but it is also very dangerous because these are people who, in many instances, have pled guilty to violent crimes that the president wants to line their pockets in order to go after his political enemies or people that he does not care for. That is un-American. It's on Democratic. The courts have blocked it and we're going to continue fighting. Sky Perryman, thanks for joining us tonight. Thank you. Coming up. All the ways Trump is making life cost more. It's making the economy worse here in America. And now our allies are starting to worry about the effect Trump's economy is having globally. That's next. Now, you can watch Ali Velshi five nights a week in prime time on MS now as he takes command of the 11th hour. The breaking news in the last hour. The 11th hour with Ali Velshi, weeknights at 11 PM Eastern on MS now.

16:37Today, Donald Trump threatened to stop trading with countries where the United States runs a trade deficit unless the federal reserve cuts interest rates. The threat came in response to what was by nearly every measure some actual good news in America's economy for a change. The US economy added 162,000 jobs in August. That's more than triple what economists had predicted for August job numbers. The unemployment rate held steady at a historically low 4.1%. Trump celebrated that report before demanding the Fed quote, and this is all caps, lower the rate or I'll stop trading with countries with which we have a deficit. The federal reserve is looking at that strong jobs report very differently. Fed officials have indicated that inflation will be a key factor in deciding whether to raise interest rates at their meeting later this month. There are already new warning signs about where prices could be headed. Gas prices ticked up another penny overnight to $4.15 a gallon compared to $2.98 before

17:44the war with Iran. Today diesel hit a record high $5.85 a gallon nationwide nearly 60% higher than a year ago. And some of America's closest allies are increasingly warning that US policies are creating new economic uncertainty. At this week's G20 meeting, officials from Europe and Canada raised concerns about the economic fallout from Donald Trump's war in Iran and the administration's ongoing tariff disputes. Germany's vice chancellor warned that those trade conflicts are eroding trust in global trade. Quote, the past few months have shown that uncertainty is poisoned for economic growth. The Iran war, the ongoing tariff disputes with the US and distortions of competition like we are experiencing from China, all of this leads to instability. Joining us now, Heather Long, chief economist at Navy Federal Credit Union, Heather, great to see you here.

18:45I'm the last word in person. So 162,000 jobs added in August unemployment, holding at 4.1%. What does today's job support tell you that we didn't know yesterday? When it tells us, it looks a little bit better on the hiring front. Honestly, June and July were really weak and there was a lot of concern that all of these tariffs and all of these high costs were really weighing on the labor market. And I think there was a big sigh of relief today. A lot of people saying wow, when they saw that 162,000 job number, there was a big, but I see it more, not as like a sign that the economy is booming. It was more of a rebound from the week, June and July. If you look at what really drove that good number today, it was a rebound in hiring at bars and restaurants, which were surprisingly weak during the World Cup period and a rebounded teachers going back to school this fall, which were really weak in July.

19:45So that's what I'm seeing. Because of you, Heather, I'm always, when I hear the jobs numbers, I'm like, yeah, but what about the revisions? What were the revisions like? And for months, the revisions of previous jobs numbers have always been reduced, but that wasn't the case this go around. That's right. The revisions were positive and added about 55,000 more jobs. It took the July number from a negative number to a slightly positive number. But really, the number that stood out to me most, Jonathan, was the wage number. Wage growth is the lowest in five years, 3.1%. And what that means is Americans are hurting because inflation is wiping out all of wage gains right now. Inflations at 3.5%, wage growth at 3.1. And it's been like that since April. And that's why you see the polling really strained for the president right now. And that's why you see a lot of families cutting back on groceries.

20:48Walmart, CEO, can CFO came out and talked about people they're seeing aren't even able to fill up their full tanks. And so there's a lot of these signs of serious strain for the middle class and lower income folks. Donald Trump looked at today's jobs report and demanded that the Fed cut interest rates. But doesn't this labor market potentially give the Fed more room to do the opposite? Especially if next Friday's inflation report comes in hot. Exactly. Why did Wall Street fall today? It was because immediately when the jobs report came out, everybody said, wow. And then they said, look, the Fed's going to hike in September. The number one problem in the US economy is inflation. It's due largely to the war in Iran, but there's no sign that this is ending. We only got the record high and the diesel price as you pointed out. And so that's why the pressure is on the Fed. And if you're going to hike at some point this year, you might as well get it over with and start in September.

21:48And that looks like what they'll do. They do get one more big inflation read around September 11. So that could change their mind if it's really mild. But it's hard to believe it's going to be mild with the numbers we're seeing. The problem. I had one more question. We ran out of time. You're that good, Heather. But real fast because I'm going to get in trouble. But this Trump's threatening to stop trading with countries that have a deficit with the United States if that Fed doesn't cut rates. Does that make any sense? Is that really a thing? Obviously it makes zero sense. It's always going to hurt more and causing more inflation, causing more economic chaos, causing the bond yields to go higher and the borrowing costs to go up more. And honestly, I don't think it's going to have a lot of effect even if he did it on the Fed. Economist, Heather Long, thanks for joining us tonight. Thanks Jonathan. I'm coming up with less than two months until the midterms voters aren't happy. And they're letting this president know more on the damage Donald Trump is doing to his

22:51party ahead of the November elections. Next. Hey everybody, it's Rachel Maddo here. I wanted to tell you that more than a dozen of us from MSNOW are going to be in Texas. On Saturday, September 26th, I'm going to be there. Lauren Sodon will be there. So we'll Jen Socky. A whole bunch of us are all going to be there in Texas. Tickets started just over 30 bucks each. And if you buy a ticket, you will get access to our new MSNOW membership free for a year. Tickets for Texas are on sale now. You can learn more at ms.nail slash together. Hope to see you in Texas. It is now less than two months until election day and it really does seem like Donald Trump is doing everything he can to make things worse for his party leading into November. Voters are noticing and they're ticked off. In the latest orders polling, only 13% of Americans strongly approve of the job Trump is

23:54doing with another 20% saying they somewhat approve. On the flip side, 12% somewhat disapprove of the job Trump is doing while 51% more than half strongly disapprove of the job Donald Trump is doing. On the issues, 65% disapprove of Trump's handling of the economy and 70% 70% disapprove of Trump's handling of the cost of living. On Iran, 61% disapprove of Trump's handling of things. And while those numbers are clarifying, they don't quite give us the raw emotion some voters are feeling. That's where we rely on MSNOW's Alex Tabit who's been on the road for months in the lead up to this election talking to voters. Here's what some Trump voters told him this week. We're here at this gas station. I've seen $3.94 at the GALAN as around 310 a year ago here in Florida.

24:58Talk to me about these gas prices. How's it impacting your life right now? It's affecting our business extremely. The prices are through the roof. And I'm a diesel user with multiple vehicles and at 565 a gallon, I believe now. I'm going to run up almost $2.00, I believe, in a year. So we're seeing very significant changes in our income because of it. If you could talk to him directly about this war, about these prices, what would you tell him? Keep your promises that you made to the people. Does America feel great again? No. Not even close. He's focused on trying to make him greater himself greater instead of the American people graders. He ran on make America great again, but he's trying to make Donald Trump great again. I think does America feel great again? I don't think so now right now. I wanted to share one more with you. Here's Kathy Graves from Lakeland, Florida.

26:00She did not vote for Trump in the last three elections, but she still has a message for him. If you could talk to directly to President Trump right now, what would you tell him right now? I do want to know. I do want to know. I would actually tell him to go. To tell him to get his head out of his ass, stop being a little too year old, and grow up and be a man. I don't get how much money he has. He's no better than anybody else. Wow. Wow. Coming up. How do we get Elon Musk to go to Mars and never come back? The answer is next. If you're headed out for one last speech weekend this long Labor Day, we have the perfect book for you. Kurt Anderson, who has been making fun of Trump since his day as a tabloid hound in the 1980s,

27:01has written two nonfiction bestseller's examining the collective insanity and quote evil geniuses that helped put Trump in the White House twice. But Kurt Anderson's new book is a fictional imagining of America 30 years from now. Spoiler alert, you will love what he imagines for Elon Musk. Lawrence says it's his favorite new book. You can't get a better recommendation than that. You can't even say that about mine. Lawrence talked to Kurt Anderson recently about taking on Trumpism and the craziness of our current timeline in fiction. A one of a kind book that only this writer could produce. That's what the Chicago Tribune is calling Kurt Anderson's brilliant new novel The Breakup. The book takes us 20 years into the future to see how a politically divided country has decided to break up. Americans have been strange bedfellows in a mixed marriage for a long time.

28:02We grew apart. We stayed together, but finally came to find each other impossible. We fought. We had irreconcilable differences. We finally split in a world where half the marriages unravel or rot or die of thirst or blow up. A cliched question about America since I was a kid concerned our national political fever if and when it would ever break. The fever broke, along with our beautiful, uncomfortable, brittle, breakable, antique national governing arrangements now being rebuilt and refurbished. It could be worse. A national divorce occurs in the breakup instead of an all-out 19th century style civil war. Like many divorces, it begins angrily and in the later negotiations becomes more practical and understanding and not so bad. In this imagined American future, Chris Murphy is the Senate Majority Leader, Abigail

29:05Spanberger is the chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, now dealing with the USA's closest neighboring country, the free American Republic, which includes half the land of the United States, but only about one-fourth of the people. Pete Buttigieg is the Disunion Commission Chair, the national divorce mediator of sorts trying to sort out the future of social security and Medicare and Medicaid in the breakaway states. Alyssa Slokken is the Vice President of the United States and Alexandria Cassio-Cortez is President. Purely fictional characters populate the leadership of the free American Republic, where, according to news reports, 20 years from now, some secession remorse is taking hold among people who are watching their hospitals close and are now living in a country with an economy one-seventh the size of the remaining United States of America, which includes all of the biggest

30:06and richest blue states. Some states like Montana go back and forth about leaving the Union, but in the end, 39 states vote to stay. In the novel, we tour the disconnected landscape with the parents of a high school student doing what has become, by that time, an old-fashioned college tour, visiting campuses in both countries. And we learn much of the new etiquette of the mid-21st century, including where to stand on an elevator with robots. We had training sessions last month to practice what will happen when the robots start riding along with the rest of us instead of in robot-only elevators. The main lesson was about their default positions at the front of cars, because some people feel uncomfortable with robots behind them, and on the left side, particularly the tall walkers, since robots communicate with the elevator via ultra-wide band and don't need

31:10to push buttons. In the future, 20 years from now rendered in the breakup, Donald Trump is no longer with us, and although we have a collection of trillionaires, not all of them completely bad, Elon Musk is no longer among them, having, quote, overdosed on route to Mars. Joining us now is Kurt Anderson, the author of the New York Times best-selling nonfiction books, Fantasy Land and Evil Geniuses, and now the author of a movie worthy work of fiction titled The Breakup, which is now available online and in stores. Kurt, thank you very much for joining us tonight, and thank you so much for this book. I told you, in sack of the other night, this is what I've been reading. To feel, actually, among other things, the import of these election nights that we're having right now, that so much is at stake in the present, as we imagine what the future might be. You've taken this imagination all the way up to 2046, and it is just beautifully told,

32:15and told in the shape of a divorce, the kind of story we've seen people go through, fearing the worst at the beginning, finding ways that turn out, maybe to be practical ways of co-existing. What got you on this path? Well, I started with this idea that I wanted to write really a book about the future, America. You know, I read these two nonfiction histories that you mentioned. I decided that the way to do that future is what I've done for previous times, which is to say fictionally, with a novel. Because thinking about it, I realized I could write a book saying, oh, this could happen, this could happen, this happened in Yugoslavia, whatever. But to me, the future of the United States of anywhere is is fiction. You know, it's all speculative, and until it happens, it's fiction. So that was the way to go. Yes, I decided I wanted to see how this went down and how life exists in the aftermath

33:23of the breakup in the Civil War through the eyes of two people, two people I hope are sympathetic characters living through it and having their own issues with their 23-year-old marriage that has political issues in their conflict, but other also incredible conflicts over technology, which has as we suggest, is progressed as it will in 19 years. And she grew up in Tennessee, Natalie. He grew up in Los Angeles, suburbs of Los Angeles. She was working class. So they began with differences as in that passage you read, sort of America. So it does America, and that's part of it, of course, magnificence. I love just a futurist's alone should have an interest in this, whether they, even without caring about the politics, you don't have to care about the politics to be just swept away with this book. It is, you're just holding a great movie in your hands, and the pages turn themselves.

34:25But on the framing of it, in terms of divorce, what I find so fascinating about it was that what people discover in divorce is painful as an idea, as it might sound at the beginning, and they discover it might be years down the road. It's very common for the discover. Oh, it wasn't so bad. And or in many cases, oh, it was definitely the right thing to do, and everyone is better off. And so we're only about 10 years into the workings of the divorce in this book at 2046. Do you imagine that in this, in the next volume of this story, in 2066, that people would be feeling, you know, it was probably the right thing to do under the circumstances. Well, I left it, as you know, ambiguous about what happens. And it seems as though that possibility is very much there. And certainly the husband in this marriage is, hey, this is great. And when there was a Civil War, and then when there was this movement to break up the

35:26United States, unlike in the Civil War 170 years ago, there was not the pushback to save the Union at all costs, which was Lincoln and the Union's desire back then. This is like, okay, good riddance. And so, and it is painful, and it would be horrible, peaceful or violent. But as you say, in the end, you know, many divorce couples find, in one of the things, it's better for the kids in the long run. And so I think that could well be the case in our national, in a sense. It is a great read, and it doesn't matter whether you think it is likely or possible. That isn't the point of a novel like this. It is a wonderful work of the imagination, Kurt. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. This has been a delight for me. It's just been the summer read, and I'm urging it on everyone. Thank you so much. Coming up before Jeffrey Epstein called Donald Trump his closest friend of 10 years.

36:28It was McCarthyite and Mafia lawyer Roy Cohn, who referred to Trump as his best friend. And we're enduring the fallout from that relationship every day of the Trump presidency. That's next. Be careful of the company you keep. With that old adage in mind, we remind you of the close company Trump has kept in his life. A convicted child sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein said, quote, I was Donald's closest friend for 10 years. And before Jeffrey Epstein, there was Roy Cohn, famous for being Senator Joe McCarthy's counsel during the witch hunts for columnist sympathizers in the 1950s. He was known in New York City as the mafia's most reliable legal gun. In his 40s, he was friendly with Richard Nixon and mentored the young Donald Trump. He called Trump his best friend, claiming the real estate developer called him a dozen

37:30times a day. That is from the remarkable new book, American Scoundrel. Roy Cohn's dark journey from Joe McCarthy to Donald Trump by Kai Bird. Here's how Donald Trump and Roy Cohn first met in 1973 as told in American Scoundrel, which notes that Trump's own account of their encounter was likely fabricated in the ghost written art of the deal to flatter Trump. Quote, more plausibly, the then virtually unknown 27 year old Trump introduced himself and nervously explained that he needed some legal advice. The government has just filed suit against our company, Trump, saying that we discriminated against blacks. What do you think I should do? Tell them to go to hell and fight the thing in court and let them prove you discriminated against a cone snapped. Trump thought this was splendid advice. There is a straight line from what Trump learned during the next two years to what Trump

38:34is doing right now. Fast forward to 1975. The idea of settling drove me crazy Trump later claimed in his art of the deal, but that's exactly what he did. Finally, signing in June 1975, virtually the same consent decree he could have signed in 1973. The Justice Department described the decree as one of the most far-reaching ever negotiated. The Black-owned New York Amsterdam News headline proclaimed, minorities win housing suit and told its readers that qualified blacks and Puerto Ricans now have the opportunity to rent apartments owned by Trump management. Trump and Cone nevertheless held a press conference and declared victory. Joining us now pull the surprise winning biographer and journalist Kai Bird, his new book, American Scoundrel Roy Cone's Dark Journey from Joe McCarthy to Donald Trump is out today.

39:34Mr. Bird, welcome to the last word. Congratulations. Thank you. Your latest triumph. There is so much that happens in the first fight. Trump and Roy Cone versus the Justice Department over discrimination that takes place over two years. Tell us about that. I gave folks a little bit of it. Well, it was their first encounter. Donald Trump at age 27 really liked this advice. He, Roy, was teaching him that he should flout the rules, ignore the federal judiciary, and just declare victory in a public forum. So what was most important to Roy was just the public fight. And his rule was always denied, denied, denied, never apologize and attack, attack, attack. And he had an opportunity for 13 years as Donald Trump's main lawyer to mold this young

40:39man and teach him how to deal with the courts and the judiciary and the press, the gossip columnists. And you see what we have today. Right. I mean, most Americans knew Cone from the early days, which are, McCarthy, New Yorkers knew him as the big, as the big mafia lawyer. You quote a New York Times reporter in the 1970s who said, and this is, guess what you were just talking about. Roy Cone worked with a three-dimensional strategy, which was one, never settle, never surrender. Two, counterattack, counter sue, immediately. Three, no matter what happens, no matter how deeply into the muck you get. Clean victory and never admit defeat. Those would appear to be the exact lessons that Trump is employing now, aren't they? Exactly. Same-leaf lessons. You know, there was an incident that happened during that two-year court battle over racial discrimination in the Trump organization's apartments and queens.

41:41They were blatantly discriminating. But in one point, in one of the court proceedings, Roy stood up and blatantly accused the assistant prosecutor of calling up witnesses and threatening them, blackmailing them if they refused to testify against Trump. And this was an outrageous allegation. He had no evidence against this young woman who was a, became a future respected judge in California. Her name was Donna Goldstein. And her career was, you know, on the line. The judge, though, had to order a recess and took two weeks to sort of figure out how to handle these allegations. Roy comes in at, on the crucial date and has no evidence. The judge says, well, I think, Mr. Cone, you should withdraw your allegations. Roy stood up and said, well, I think the young girl has learned her lessons.

42:42I was thrilled. Right. Yeah. It's sort of like we're being today. The process is the pain in the process is sort of a victory here. I'm getting you on one more thing before we run out of time. You write about Roger Stone meeting the 34 year, then 34 year Donald Trump with Cone. And he thought Donald Trump sounded like Roy using the same idioms and tough language. Roy would always say, if you want to know the truth or I can tell you, Trump picked up on those phrases and made them his own when Roy was about to tell a big lie. He'd say, to be absolutely frank. And then you'd know he was about to say something untruthful. We see that today. We see that today. This is the language of the mafia that Roy adopted. He loved his mafia clients. He thought them loyal and honorable men. And he began talking like them. And now we hear the same phrases coming out of our current president's mouth. The new book is American scoundrel Roy Cone's dark journey from Joe McCarthy to Donald Trump

43:48available everywhere. I can do it here everywhere today. Kite Bird, congratulations on the new book. Mr. Bruce, thank you very much. Thank you, Jonathan. That is tonight's last word. I'll see you tomorrow morning on the weekend starting at 7 a.m. Eastern right here on MS now. And coming up next here at 9 p.m. Eastern, a special encore of Rachel Maddo presents Burn Order, which has now been honored with a 2026 Edward R. Murrow Award. That starts right now. Texas, September 26th. Get tickets today at ms.now slash together.