“Trump’s escalating calls for revenge”

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1:02directed hostility is dangerous, and it's got to stop. Hi, everyone. It's five o'clock here in New York. I'm Alicia Menendez in for Nicole Wallace, with an unprecedented level of attacks against judges all across the country. Donald Trump is choosing to escalate his calls for revenge against those that rule against him. Here is what he said last night. The time has also come for Republicans to pass a tough new crime bill that imposes harsh penalties for dangerous repeat offenders, cracks down on road judges. We got road judges that are criminals, they're criminals, what they do to our country, the decisions that they hand down and hurt our country, and I could tell you something I've gone through it, and the decisions that these people make. I got a decision on tariffs that's going to cost our country, not me.

2:07These new demands for a legal crackdown on sitting judges comes against this dangerous environment they are now working in. ABC News reporting the quote, there has been an increasing number of threats against federal judges in recent years, according to data maintained by the US Marshal Service. There have been 314 investigations involving 202 judges since October at the agency says. But apparently Trump's revenge campaign comes above the safety of the judges and the rule of law itself. It's not the only way the administration is going after the people that hold Trump accountable. This retribution campaign against one of his perceived political enemies is also plowing ahead. My colleague, Ron Hillier reports the quote, after the Department of Justice failed to convict New York Attorney General, Leticia James on charges of mortgage fraud last year, the Trump administration's federal housing chief, Bill Pulti, has filed a new criminal referral to the department. This time, asking prosecutors to investigate James for insurance fraud, according to criminal referrals obtained by MSNOW.

3:08He sent the two criminal referrals to two Trump-nominated US attorneys, Jason Redding Kinyonis of the Southern District of Florida, and Andrew Boutros of the Northern District of Illinois. The referrals claim James made misrepresentations in home insurance filings in Florida and Illinois respectively, but how two properties associated with her would be used. James's lawyer Abby Lollblast of the attempts to revive the Trump administration's targeting of the New York AG, telling MSNOW in a statement, quote, frustrated by repeated failures were judges and grand juries have rejected their attempts to charge Attorney General James. Trump and his political and ablers keep abusing their power to pursue a vendetta against her. These desperate tactics will fail just as every previous attempt has failed, and exposes an administration that has abandoned its responsibility to the American people in favor of petty political payback. That is where we start this hour, New York Times Justice Department reporter Glenn Thrushes here, also with us, US former US Attorney and former Deputy Assistant Attorney General Harry Lipman, and former Acting Assistant Attorney General for National Security, Mary McCord.

4:14Okay, Mary, let's take this conversation in two pieces and let's begin with the threat that Donald Trump is making there this idea of legislation that would criminalize judges who do their job. Am I understanding that correctly? That's what it sounded like, and good luck with that, because not only do I think Congress wouldn't go for it, but the Supreme Court and all the courts below wouldn't go for something. I mean, the judiciary is its own equal branch of the US government. It has the responsibility, right, for saying what the law is. That is what the Supreme Court decided 100, you know, well more than 100 years ago in Marbury versus Madison, and judges cannot be criminally penalized for doing their job. You know, there are other political processes that can be taken with respect to judges, but again, only for misconduct and ruling against the president is not misconduct. It is just doing their job. But perhaps even more importantly than this ridiculous suggestion of criminalizing judges

5:20based on their opinions is what this is doing to inject an atmosphere of, you know, a threatening atmosphere against judges. These are the dog whistles that we've seen from Donald Trump's first administration. We're seeing them even on steroids in his second administration is listen to my words about, you know, who I am vilifying and expecting that people will take action. And they will take action because we've seen it before. You know, I'm glad the Chief Justice is speaking out, but this isn't just about the judiciary. People and your opening, you know, has suggested it, people across the country elected officials, people running for election, election officials, protesters, you know, people exercising constitutional rights are vilified by the president every day. And that results in threats to them and their families and real world impacts on them. Harry, to illustrate this threat environment, I want you to take a listen to what one federal judge said a few weeks ago about the threats he faced after ruling against the Trump administration

6:24on birthright citizenship. Some of them are very, very ugly and very threatening. Death threats? Oh, yes. Oh, yes, dozens of them, dozens if not hundreds. I've been at this for 44 years. I have never encountered the hostility towards a judiciary that has existed in this country in the last year. And I don't think it's because we're making bad decisions. I think it's because there are people who think that they can make a lot of political hay out of criticizing federal judiciary. And then Harry, you have the president of the United States saying that Congress should step in and legislate this? Yes. Yeah, so look, 300 threats, by the way, is a stunning number. But beyond that, Trump's tirade here is not only, as Mary says, legally bankrupt, but it's also completely empty and completely dangerous.

7:25It's empty because if you look at it, there's not a single word about the law. The whole notion is they disagreed with me, therefore they are rogue criminals and hurt the country. And it's dangerous for the reasons you say. And we heard the Chief Justice say it, that is in the tonal register of a Chief Justice. So it's kind of muted. It is for him like a bullhorn at top volume and then saying it has to stop. That is from the Chief Justice as strong and strong in a warning as you can give. And yet probably it falls on deaf ears. We know it does in the White House and Trump, given that he doubled down just last night. Well, Glenn, I take both Harry and Mary's point that you shouldn't give too much credence to stupid, but let's just entertain the hypothetical of a law like this being passed that criminalizes judges doing their job. What does that then do to the relationship between the Justice Department and the judiciary?

8:25Well, it's not going to, it's not, you know, it's like three for three. This is not going to happen. Look, I love the term that Harry used, tonal register, which is an interesting turn of phrase. I just, the circumspection that the Chief Justice had in terms of him saying these things needs to be contrasted with Trump's bombast. And at some point in time, and I'm talking to you, United States Congress, some of these senators and representatives who very well know A, that such a law would be on Constitution, never vote on it. And B, don't appreciate this kind of talk because in so many instances, the federal judiciary has been ruling in Trump's favor. They don't like this, but you know, Trump is able to speak as if there is only one branch of government and only one article in the Constitution,

9:26because the legislative branch principally has not pushed back on that. You see a little bit of this happening. Senator Kennedy is somebody who's spoken out against the Senator Tillis is another one principally because he's not running for re-election. But until the tonal register, of Republicans rises to rival what Trump's tonal register is, this is just going to keep happening. And I want to throw in one other point here about personal safety. This is an administration that began by removing, as we recall, the security details of Joe Biden's family and of other officials, including John Bolton, who was getting a lot of threats from potential Iranian sources. While themselves speaking passionately about the threats that they face, you know, I reported a couple of weeks ago, Pam Bondi has moved from her apartment onto a military base in the DC area, a couple of her senior aides have done so as well, joining other senior administration officials

10:27who believe that they are being threatened. So there's very clearly a double standard in the way that this administration is handling credible threats to officials and judges. Okay, so we've talked about the president's idea that he's workshopping about the possibility of going after judges. Let's talk about the way in which he is now going after one of his perceived political enemies. I wonder, Mary, what you make of the fact that they are taking another run at his chains? Well, I mean, I don't know how far along it is. We certainly know that this is what Mr. Pulti wants and he probably does things and we have seen him do things, you know, directly to try to serve the president. This seems to be just like sort of a repackaged version of Mr. Pulti's previous accusations that did result, of course, in Trump's hand picked and from US Attorney Lindsay Halligan somehow getting an indictment, which after it was dismissed, no other prosecutor was

11:29able to replicate twice a grand jury denied inditing to James on bank fraud that seemed to be based very closely to the same things that Mr. Pulti is suggesting should be the basis for insurance fraud. fraud. This is a, this is an administration that doesn't want to give up, doesn't want to realize what they have is just not good enough. And even if it was, even if there was some new information, the directed retribution, the retaliation, the going after a person and not after a crime and digging and digging and digging to see if they could find something to possibly make a crime. I mean, that just shows the vindictive nature of this and even if there is any success in getting a grand jury to actually return any indictment, you know, yet for another try, I think we will expect to see motions to dismiss based on vindictive and selective prosecution. Let's talk, Harry, about where they are choosing to do this in Florida and Illinois. One of the

12:30referrals was sent to Jason Redding, Ken Jonas, the US Attorney in the Southern District of Florida. As you know, he has already shown his willingness to target Trump's perceived enemies, leading that grand conspiracy investigation that's a peanut combi earlier this month. In this specific way, they do know what they are doing and who is most likely to be sympathetic to carrying their water. They know who is most likely to be sympathetic there. Alicia, but that means bringing charges that they know have no purchase. So as Mary said, not only was the first one dismissed, but two other efforts. I've never seen that happen before, but you would think three strikes and you're out. But the bedrock rule is, do you have a case? And this isn't simply similar to the mortgage fraud allegations that they couldn't make happen in the Eastern the identical facts just with putting scratching out mortgage and putting insurance.

13:31Nor have they changed the theory in the different times, which of course you would do when a grand jury rejects it. So the fundamental corruption here is trying to bring cases. And as you say, Ken Jonas in particular, he's Mr. Grand Conspiracy, a term by the way that doesn't exist in general law. They're just making it up. But to try to just have another forum to do what they couldn't do three times before with no effort to, in any way, augment the case. It's not there and that itself is a grave miscarriage of justice, trying to make a case that they know doesn't hunt. Grand Conspiracy may not exist, Harry Limon, in federal law, but it certainly exists in the drags of the internet Glenn Thrush, which is where that all came from. I mean, listen, in the case of AG James, we all know this is about the process and the pain that comes with the process and the time that comes with the process and the money that comes with the process. And while everything

14:31else may not be real and may not be true, that remains real. That remains true. That is the effect and reality of his retribution campaign. Your sense, Glenn, based on your reporting on where we are in the escalation ladder when it comes to this DOJ being willing to target those who the president identifies as his political enemies. We're in a really weird liminal period here because it seemed like things were gaining some traction, middle ladder part of last year, but the wheels are coming off the bus a little bit. This is a Justice Department that is really weighed down by this Jeffrey Epstein files fiasco. And a lot of the energy that we're going into these selective prosecutions that Trump was ordering up like Ubers last year, they've fizzled out and they're having a lot of trouble finding assistant US attorneys to even bring any of these cases. So while this is still an enormously alarming set of circumstances, I think it is important to understand the degree of

15:37just fundamental dysfunction in the in the department right now. You have some of the senior leadership with the department from Pam Bondy on down. Janine Piro in DC, you have Harmi Dillon, head of the Civil Rights Division, doing direct to camera pleas for law school graduates to come work for them. We've reported about the labor shortage in the US attorney's office, not surprisingly good lawyers and even young lawyers don't want to come work for the Justice Department. That has become a profound problem. So I think while we're seeing a lot of these fireworks, and again, I've said this from the beginning, it's difficult to discern the fireworks from the artillery. And for period of time, particularly late last year and in the summer, it seemed like it was artillery. It's seeming at the moment like it's fireworks. Can Jonas essentially was placed in that position with the assistance of Mike Davis, who's this right wing provocateur who's in Trump's, Trump's year. And one last thing at one point I want to make is we got a housing crisis in this country. I covered housing for 20 years,

16:42low income housing in New York and other places. What is Bill Pultie doing about the housing crisis? The J is supposed to be doing that. Why is he spending his time on the Justice Department's front lawn? When one of the big issues in the midterm elections is affordability, particularly at time when interest rates are rising over the last couple of weeks. And young families can't afford even cheap parental housing. I know you mean it as a rhetorical question, but it is the problem with this administration top to bottom, which is an actual lack of attention to the very things that they ran on a disinterest in this question of affordability and an absolute obsession marry with going after their enemy. So I just want to throw into the dysfunction that I think blended a very good job of articulating over at DOJ, the fact that somewhere in that dysfunction, they have found time, this is according to the New York Times, they're agreeing to pay Michael T. Flynn, President Trump's former national

17:42security adviser, $1.25 million to settle claims that he was wrongfully prosecuted for making false statements to federal agents investigating ties between Russia and Mr. Trump's 2016 presidential campaign. So just an absolute obsession with punishing enemies and what would seem like a rewarding of allies. It certainly does seem like a rewarding of allies. And remember, Michael Flynn had pleaded guilty to this offense. And the judge who was hearing his case, his then civil case after Donald Trump then are actually after William Barr, then the Attorney General came and directed the Department of Justice to dismiss the case against Michael Flynn after he had pleaded guilty. That case was dismissed. Donald Trump pardoned him. He filed a civil case seeking damages. That case was dismissed. The government was winning against Michael Flynn's efforts to get money for a righteous case that he had pleaded guilty to. And now in the midst of having

18:43had the case dismissed, Michael Flynn refiling an amended complaint, we have this settlement and this payoff. And remember, this is when we've had payoffs to Ashley Babitz family after she was killed very unfortunately during January 6th riot where she was trying to go through a window to get to where the senators and representatives were. We have Donald Trump himself with civil litigation against the Department for over $200 million. We have members of the oath keepers and crowdboys who are talking about and some have filed a civil litigation seeking massive amounts of compensation. Is this the beginning of sort of paying off those who are friendly to this president because you know the message is clear here, right? If you cross him, you will be pounded and prosecuted even for things that don't make a standard of prosecution. And if you subjugate yourself, you will be rewarded. It is impossible not to see that. Mary McCord, Glenn Thrush, Harry Lippman, thank you all so much for getting us started.

19:45When we return a mysterious flurry of activity in stock trades and prediction markets, sometimes just minutes before Donald Trump makes surprise policy announcements. That's potentially making a very select group of insiders a whole lot of money. What Democrats on Capitol Hill are doing to try to put a stop to it, that's next. Also ahead, Donald Trump's absurd excuse for why he cast a mail in valid in that state legislature race in Florida. You know, the one that saw a Democrat win right in Trump's backyard, even as he rails against mail and voting for everyone else. Deadline White House continues after quick break. Stay with us. In 2024, a truck crashed into Cannot Animal Rescue, where I work. 146 of our dogs needed homes fast. We asked for help on Facebook. Our story spread through WhatsApp messages and Instagram reposts. Immediately, people stepped up. And just six hours later, every dog was fostered. I'll never forget how our community showed up for us.

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21:52there at the best price. There's now an alarming pattern of well-time trades and bets made just moments, sometimes minutes before major policy announcements from Donald Trump. It's prompting speculation about possibly insiders being tipped off on everything from tariffs to war and getting enormous payouts in the process. A few examples, as the Wall Street Journal explains, before Trump ordered the US military to proceed with its operation to capture a Venezuelan leader Nicolas Maduro in late December and early January, a mystery trader placed about $34,000 on Venezuela-related bets, mainly on contracts that would pay off if Maduro lost power by the end of January. The final wager was placed less than an hour before Trump's order. And last month, after US and Israeli forces began to strike Iran, an analytics firm said a group of, quote, suspected insiders made $1.2 million. Most of the accounts had bet on a strike by February 28th,

22:54which turned out to be the exact date of the operation. And most recently, on Monday, a mysterious flurry of trading activity in oil and S&P 500 futures, about 15 minutes before Trump de-escalated tensions with Iran with a Monday morning post on Truth Social. And while there's no evidence that this means insiders are being tipped off, the Wall Street Journal says, quote, still, some market veterans believe news is trickling out from Trump's orbit ahead of these official announcements. Senator Chris Murphy responded to one report about a massive $1.5 billion oil stock trade just five minutes before Trump's post this week. Quote, who was it? Trump, family member, White House staffer, quote, this is corruption, mind-blowing corruption. Let's bring in Senator Jeff Merkley, Democrat from Oregon. He is introducing new legislation today that would ban prediction market bets on elections and government action. Senator, thank you for being here. Do you agree with your colleague that this is corruption? Oh, absolutely. This is not

24:00just where there's smoke, there's fire. Like, the fire is so obvious that people are getting information right before critical decisions or actions are taken. Talk to me about the legislation that you're introducing today. Yes, this legislation says, in part, you shouldn't be voting or it shouldn't be betting on elections because that's very corrupt because people can place huge amounts through the dark money on campaigns to change the outcome of elections at the last minutes. So that's that's an unacceptable marketplace that that diminishes the integrity of our elections. It says that you can't place a bet on either military or government decisions because there are inherently there's so many people involved in those decisions. Those places where you are playing a placing a wager and there is a ratio on how much you'll receive based on how other people are betting. The insiders are going to win every single time. So it's a it's a it's a corrupt setting and it's a place where where people in government or their friends or their family are going to

25:03place these bets because they have that information. They can't resist temptation. They can place those bets with crypto and which makes it hugely anonymous. So so they feel the odds of ever getting caught are very low. The legislation that you're introducing today, you had introduced legislation earlier in the in the month that would specifically ban elected officials from using these prediction markets. I mean theoretically that should be a layup when you talk with your I know when you talk with your Republican colleagues about that. Do you do you sense hesitation resistance? Yes I sure do detect reservations or hesitation. You know over a decade ago I started campaigning to end stock trading by members because it's inherently corrupt. We know in information the public doesn't have but you can't prove insider trading so people are making trades all the time or it's also influencing that they're stock holdings or influencing what

26:04they're going to do. It's the same thing with prediction mark. I mean think of prediction markets is a massive casino where you can bet on anything. Well that's a problem and certain areas should be off limits and that's what this bill does but my earlier bill was focused directly on members of Congress not being able to place these bets. I think folks understand the corruption and folks who are able to to benefit financially from placing these bets with insider information but speak to me about what you see as the consequence of just anyone being able to bet on something as sensitive as as military strikes or Congress passing a bill. I mean what is the sociological effect of such an action? Well let's step back and think about the arena where this is happening. It's a commodity futures trading commission. That was all about being able to essentially arrange beforehand to sell or buy commodities at price. Think of park bellies.

27:06Think of wheat. Think of aluminum. Think of oil. Those are commodities. These are not commodities. So this is an enormous loophole that creates gambling on everything and with huge amounts of potential insider information flowing in ways that can never be detected. But it also can corrupt the process because say there are huge bets placed. Well let's say on whether or not the US will restore oil to Cuba and somebody says hey now that I've got millions of dollars hanging on this I'm going to use my influence to try to make sure the government acts to fulfill my side of that bet. So that's another form of corruption where pressure can be brought to bear on officials and then you have the other side where people are using insider information. So both directions no integrity shouldn't happen. We should put those off limits. In the case of both pieces of legislation, the legislation that is aimed at members of Congress, the legislation that is more

28:10broad on this question of just fundamentally what folks should be able to place wagers on, they're they're perspective. It's about what could happen in the future. I think there's still the alarming reality here that it would seem there is insider information regardless of who that insider information went to. Do you think it makes sense for Congress to use their oversight power to really get to the bottom of how this information is being shared with whom it's being shared and how it is then making its way to these markets? Oh absolutely that's a key function of Congress is oversight of the executive and it's a key function that's been absolutely missing. We have a rubber stamp Congress and they're both the House and the Senate. They have no interest in investigating these types of corrupt actions because anything associated with Trump, they are just saying we will let Trump be as corrupt as he wants, no oversight. And so that's that's where we stand. Congress

29:13is filling that mission. Senator Jeff Merkley sir thank you so much for spending some time with us today. Thank you. When we return how gullible does Donald Trump think we really are, his excuse for why he voted by mail after years of railing against it, it defies all logic, we're going to have that after short break. Instagram Tina counts automatic protections for teens. Instagram Tina counts have built in content settings now inspired by 13 plus movie ratings and limits for who can contact teens. Plus teens under 16 can't change these default safety settings without parental approval. So parents can help teens connect safely. Instagram Tina counts automatic protections for who can contact teens and the content they can see. Learn more at Instagram.com and slash Tina counts. Now finding a doctor is a little less challenging. United Health Group is investing in tools that make it easier for patients to navigate health care and pay less. These transparency tools help

30:16patients find providers and this is the big thing. Compare costs up front. The big picture, more transparent pricing benefits everyone. These tools from United Health Group can help patients save hundreds of dollars annually. Learn more at unitedhealthgroup.com slash commitment. Donald Trump is struggling to defend his hypocrisy after casting a vote by mail in a Florida election earlier this week. Even as he rails against mail and voting and demands the government stay partially shut down over it. This was Trump's response when asked about his decision to vote by mail in that Palm Beach special election on Tuesday, which you know, a Democrat won. Take a look. Tell me about mail in balance going. You may not use the mail in balance. You probably said,

31:18yeah, I did. You know what? Because I'm president of the United States and because of the fact that I'm president of the United States, I did a mail in ballot for elections that took place in Florida because I felt I should be here instead of being in the beautiful sunshine taking. You were on Palm Beach sir the last few weekends. That's right. And yeah. And I decided that I was going to vote by mail in ballot because I couldn't be there because I had a lot of different things. But you know, we have exceptions for mail in balance. You do know that, right? So if you're away, you have an exception. If you're in the military, we have an exception. If you're in a business trip, we have an exception. If you're disabled, we have an exception. And if you're ill, if you're not feeling good. So I was away mostly in Washington DC, so I used a mail in bail. We thought this story was so outrageous. We needed to bring back voting rights attorney and founder of Democracy Dock and Mark Elias. Also with us, New York Times reporter Nick Karsante, he covers voting and elections. All right. Mark, I know we just talked about the GOP efforts

32:19to undermine election integrity, but this was just too outrageous to not bring back to you. One, talk to me about the rationale being I'm the president of the United States. And two, his lack of understanding about how these exceptions would work under his own legislation. I mean, it's just a stone-cold liar. I mean, it's time we stop acting like what he's saying is making any sense. He starts by your right just saying, I'm president of the United States, and therefore I get to do what I want, which by the way echoes in a lot of other settings where he has said when you are someone like him, you get to do whatever you want. So that's part one of his answer. Kudos to him at least for being honest there and making sense. But then when he's confronted by the reporter who says, but you were in, you've been in Florida, he just starts spewing a bunch of nonsense. I mean, the fact is he was not ill. He was not disabled. He was not in the military and he was not unavailable. He was apparently in Florida, so he could have voted by mail. And as far as those exceptions, you know, he keeps mouthing these words. But, you know,

33:22what we know is that there's no meat on the bones because Republicans in the Senate think that what he's proposing is political toxicity and death. And so they're not even putting forward, you know, this for a vote. We're stuck now in the second week of, you know, temper tantrum by the Republicans, led by Mike Lee. And in the meantime, you know, the airports remain un-staffed. And the Senate remains in session not doing the business of the American people. Nick talked to me about, I mean, the hypocrisy to the point that Marx made more, I think we're all accustomed to it. But the timing of this, right, as he's trying to strong arm the GOP into agreeing to keep the government partially shut down over the Save Act is part of why this is in such sharp focus. Yeah, and I think it's important to remember we've actually been here before. If you go back to the 2020 election, you know, Trump was rallying against mail voting then. He

34:23was saying it was corrupt. This was when it was really becoming the providence of Democrats, you know, voting by mail had long been something that Republicans relied on. It was a very efficient way to get older or rural voters out to the polls. People who had to drive a half hour no longer had to. So, you know, Republicans were able to take control of Florida in large part due to vote by mail. Georgia, when Republicans took power in 2005, one of the first things they did was pass a no excuse voting by mail law. So, this was once Republicans. Now, the 2020 election in the pandemic, when Democrats embraced voting by mail, really flipped it on its head. And that's when President Trump really got loud criticizing it. Now, in that 2020 election, he cast a vote by mail. And not only did he cast a vote by mail, he used a process that he's been calling illegal for a while, you know, having a third party return it. That was at least according to the to the Palm Beach election officials back then. So, we've been here before. And it's not necessarily surprising that

35:23this is something that the president himself has used in the past and sometimes prefers to, given its convenience, it's just the laws and the rhetoric that come out of him are certainly different. Mark, you reported that a Trump ally, save act advocate, Congressman Chip Roy, was caught on tape admitting that one of the criticisms of the save act actually happened to one of his staffers. Take a look. When Chief of Staff had to go get a new ID in Virginia, Virginia has adopted the real ID system. So, she had to go through a bunch of hoops. She's going to have to go back to DMV twice because they want the paperwork for it. That's just part of the issue with how we try to set up

36:26the ability to identify people. But there's no barriers at all to married women being able to vote. It's not internally consistent, but just give me a second because two months later Roy said this, perhaps the most absurd narrative peddled from the left, including twice-failed presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, is that the save act will somehow disenfranchise married women or anyone else who has changed his or her name for voting in federal elections. Nothing could be further from the truth. Sir, you just said the truth yourself. I mean, they know how bad this is, Mark, they just don't care. I think you put your finger on it right there. They don't care. From their standpoint, if some women don't get to vote, no problem. They're not overly concerned about the disenfranchisement of married women or, for that matter, women in general because they figure, you know what, more women vote Democratic than vote Republican. And therefore, if that has to be the way it is, then that's the way it is. As he said, his chief of staff had to go back. I think he said a couple of times, a couple of times, not once, but a couple of times in order to just sort out

37:33the differences that women who changed their last name as a result of marriage have to do. And, and sure, it's not a big deal to him. And it doesn't affect people. It affects women. And so that's why he's so quick to dismiss it and just say, you know, let's not talk about it too much. I want to zone in, Nick, on some of the reporting that you've been doing about states working to counter attacks on mail-in voting, including the potential Supreme Court ruling that would limit how late ballots can be received. You right? 18 top election officials in states and territories across the country are bracing for the possibility that the Supreme Court will require major changes to election law just months before the midterm election in November. Part of the urgency, getting the message out to voters that late arriving ballots may no longer be counted. Such a decision could affect hundreds of thousands of voters. Voters are human. And we know that one top, one message doesn't get through, said Kathy Bookvar, the former top election official in Pennsylvania. And it might take seven or ten,

38:36or 15 times with a voter hearing something to fully understand the changes. You know, in the early part of my career, I did a lot of voter engagement rock the vote, Democratic USA. This is hard work. It requires going door-to-door. It means a lot of peer-to-peer contact. How much harder do these state election officials believe it could be as soon as this midterm election? Well, there's so much going on right now, right? There's a war in Iraq. There is economic distress. There's inflation. There's gas prices soaring. There's so much that's affecting their day-to-day lives. There are minute to minute concerns that one of the last things that's going to be on their mind now in March is voting and changes to voting rules. So even if it's on the front pages of New York Times, it's leading on MSNOW. It's not something that's registering with voters yet. We're still so far away. So when this decision comes by the Supreme Court or whenever laws are passed in Congress that could change voting rules in the middle of an election, it's almost guaranteed that some voters

39:37are going to be left in the large. No matter how hard these election officials try to message to them. There's just more things going on. And as former Secretary Bookvar told me, voters are used to what they did last. If you give them the box, they're going to fill it out the same way they did. So if laws are changed, there's always going to be mistakes. We can just look at a recent election. In Texas, just a few weeks ago, there was a primary election. And in Dallas, there was a change in the way that precincts were assigned due to the county Republican party not wanting to have joint primaries. Now, there was about a six-week runway. Both parties, election officials were trying to get the word out. They were putting it on social media, really doing their best to educate voters. Still, on election day, there were hundreds of voters who were confused, who missed their opportunity to cast a ballot, all due to recent law changes. So what's going to be really hard for election officials is if some of these major changes, especially the potential Supreme Court decision to not allow lateriving ballots, where to arrive, to have voters understand

40:41that is just such a tall task. Thank you so much for that example, because it is a great reminder that none of this is theoretical. And it's not something that is going to just happen in the future. It is something that is happening right now. All right, no one's going anywhere. I got to sneak in a quick break. We're going to be right back. We are back with Mark Elias and Nick Korsanti. I am curious about the fact that the president of the United States shows not to attend CPAC Mark Elias, but I am also even more curious about the fact that a DOJ official Todd Blanche did choose to attend, and that in his remarks at CPAC, he seemed to endorse the president's idea of having ICE agents show up at polling places. What does that tell you about how far they are going to normalize this idea? So they've normalized it. I mean, at least from their standpoint, they have. We've seen the same progression here that we see on a whole host of issues with Donald Trump. First, he tells a bit of a lie, and it's kind of easy to dismiss because it doesn't seem

41:45more than important. Then people around him deny, deny, deny, and then eventually they're like, oh, yes, well, of course, that's the truth. And you're kind of left being like, wait a second, how did we get here? And so originally, there's no reason why we would send ICE to the polls, we have no plans to send ICE to the polls. And now it's like, well, what's wrong with sending ICE to the polls? And you're right. It's coming not from someone who is a political operative in the White House. It's not coming from someone like Steve Bannon, who, by the way, predicted this, like he actually said this on his podcast weeks ago. But it's coming from one of the top DOJ officials. I mean, talk about normalizing. I mean, we used to say that no one at the Department of Justice could attend a reception if it had a partisan veneer to it. When Bill Clinton ran across Loretta Lynch on the tarmac when he was no longer the president and exchanged pleasantries,

42:45that was treated as a potential scandal. And now we have the White House dictating who gets currently prosecuted. We have the people at the senior members of the Department of Justice giving political, you know, going to CPAC, you know, political events to give speeches about deploying federal agents at the polling places. And, you know, to the last story you covered about, about, you know, the mail in ballots. I mean, I'm not giving up hope that we're going to win this case in the US Supreme Court. But let's not forget, you know, it's not all up to the voters. It's not all up to the election officials. I mean, does anyone think Donald Trump's not going to slow down the mail? I mean, you could tell voters, you know, your ballot has to be in by election day. But that's not up to the voter. I mean, the voter still just puts it in the mailbox. I mean, Lord Knowser Republicans have been banning ballot drop boxes that would do away with the problem. What's the stop Donald Trump from just saying, you know what, the mail, no more first class mail treatment for ballots, no more free postage for ballots, no more election mail at all going through the mail. And so, so, you know, I hope this Supreme Court is listening to this and

43:49recognizes that that what's at stake here is not, you know, whether it's one date or another date and and some voter education. This is a different kettle of fish. This is a weaponization of government against voting from top to bottom. And nothing is off the table when it comes to Donald Trump. Merkel, I thank you so much for coming back, Nick Corsoniti. I've been saying your last name wrong my entire life. Thank you so much for being with us. I appreciate your time. I'm going to take another quick break. We'll be right back. Reminder this week's guests on the best people podcasts is none other than the journalists who has been at the forefront of covering the Epstein story for years. Miami Herald investigative reporter Julie Kay Brown. Listen to what she told Nicole about why the release of the Epstein files is such a game changer. Sometimes people have this distrust of journalists and or anybody even on these public platforms. You can actually go in and you can look at these files and that is huge

44:51because the public can see with their own eyes and they're looking at these files and they are saying, oh my god, they're seeing this stuff themselves. So I think that that is huge because it's no longer being filtered that anybody can go in there really. And you know, it is a lot of work to sort through them like looking for a needle in haystacks sometimes. But you could put Trump's name in there and you can just look and see what comes up and you can get lost in them. But I do think that it is a good thing. Listen to Nicole's entire conversation with Julie Kay Brown. Just scan the QR code on your screen or download the best people wherever you get your podcasts. You're going to take another break. We'll be right back. Thank you for spending part of this Thursday with us. I'm going to be back in one hour alongside Michael Steele and Simone Sanders Townsend for the weeknight.