Thursday 7am - Why doesn't Canada have a Covid inquiry?

0:00This is the Toronto Today podcast. I'm your host, Greg Brady. Today will be day three of something called the Allison inquiry. And this is, well, it's meant to be more informal than formal and it's meant to be nonpartisan and Canadian member of parliament, Dean Allison is leading it. And he told us about it in the summer. And in essence, it's a public forum for citizens to share some personal testimony about injuries or adverse effects from COVID-19 vaccines. Maybe it was their first, maybe it was their fourth. And I'm going to sit here and make a strong argument that our governments at every level, it's been being done at other countries should kind of address what happened during the pandemic. I think there's something about it. And I can't put my finger on what it is. Have we had extreme opinions about things we did, things we didn't do. Of course we did. We've seen family members, shun other family members. That stuff is still probably not resolved in every single family. But to me, it's like, what did we get right?

1:00What did we get wrong? What did we do too much of what we do too little of? None of us were perfect. None of us had a bad at a thousand, as they'd say, in terms of what should be done and what shouldn't be done. And we sure wondered, shouldn't I get to make a decision about just me and my family and my kids and my parents or my aging grandparents? The COVID vaccine might have been incredibly important for my aging parents. I'm going to tell you psychologically, it sure was. They didn't get sick once. Would they have, if they hadn't taken it? Don't know. My father-in-law long-term care. Did I not want him to get one of the first shots available? You bet. But it might not have been something my teen boys ever needed, okay? And I refused. We had this conversation as husbands and wives do. And I said to my wife, I don't want to boost our boys. I don't want them getting a third shot. I didn't want them getting a second shot, feeling what I was feeling then. Reading about the concerns about my occurditis in young males. We've talked about this on the show. So wherever you thought you made a turn and thought, maybe the mandates aren't quite right.

2:02I mean, again, these are questions we have to ask each other about it. This is not officially government sanctioned. It is a platform to record the experiences of these individuals who felt ignored or sidelined by, in essence, public health institutions. And I don't need to tell you the lack of health that's with public, the lack of trust that's with public health institutions right now. So I want to welcome on MP Dean Allison to the show as he goes into day number three of the Allison inquiry. Thank you very much for the time, Dean. I appreciate it. Oh, Greg, thanks for having me on the show. I appreciate it. Well, tell me about this. And again, you can react to what I laid out there. That's what this is. This is informal. It is a public forum. Do I think every MP owes it and every MPP in Ontario also? So owes it to their citizens to go, at least I'm going to listen. I don't have to agree with all of your perspectives, but I should give you an ear after all I work for you. And I think that's what you provided for these people.

3:03Yeah, you know, simply what I did, Greg, was, you know, my job as an MP is many things. But two things it is for sure is to listen to my constituents and then try to advocate for them on behalf of government programs. And so, essentially, that's all I'm doing. But I'm doing it in a public forum. Everything you said was correct. You know, we're not going to have to clean up ours. We're not going to be partisan. We're not going to like, you know, discuss the technology around that. None of that stuff. You know, we could talk a lot about that stuff. People feel like their voice hasn't been heard. I think that's the most thing I come to over and over again. It's like, hey, we did what we were told. We did what we needed to do to contribute. Some people did it for different reasons. As you said, some did it because they had to keep their job. But what happened was is that it definitely not, it would have the same experience. And some people actually were injured. Some were actually injured very poorly, very badly. And so I think that they felt that they've just been abandoned and they can't even talk about it because, you know, this is still a tough topic of conversation in 2026 amongst

4:03family members, amongst friends, communities. And so we just said, let's give you permission to tell your stories publicly. I want to create a dialogue, Greg. I want people to talk and have a conversation because if people can't talk about this, then they can't begin the healing process. Why do you? Yeah, I was going to ask why you think it's still so uncomfortable. You can imagine I got to come on the radio. I started doing the show this actual time slot in fall of 21. And by that point, we were just getting into mandates in North America, provincial mandates, federal mandates, all the like. We were ways away from the truckers and the emergencies act and all that stuff. But I also go, wait a minute, everybody's getting COVID now. This is the Omicron era, not the Delta era in the summer. And I'm like, if everyone's getting it and my vaccine, Dean, if I, if I'm vaccinated and you're not, I could easily, you could still give me COVID. I could give you COVID and you could have it for the fourth or fifth time. I started to ask myself, and yes, out loud on the show, what's the point? What's the point of the mandates? That was the entire process of mandating something is if I get the vaccine, you can't get COVID.

5:09That turned out by that point in time, certainly not to be true. Exactly. We didn't discuss things about natural immunity all these days. But once again, those are all great topics and we should probably discuss them for another day. But we have 30 countries around the world that are doing something. And we've done absolutely nothing, zero, nada. And so my thought process was give people a chance to talk and people are excited. We have over 1,400 people apply in like two or three months and the list is still growing. Now, unfortunately, we don't have like two years to be able to hear all these people. But what we did was set aside four days in Ottawa, got them to come up, got them to be in a committee room. Just like we would normally do these things on the hill, I don't think it's going to be discussed. This something should be discussed by parliament. I just don't think they're going to go there. So at the very least, we can hear their stories. We're not making recommendations. We want to hear what they have to say. And should we maybe still do an inquiry? Well, why wouldn't we? We should look at, you know, anytime we go through a major event, there should always be a bit of a post-bornum.

6:13What do we do? What do we do right? What do we do better? What can we do and change in the future? And we all know those things intuitively. But we, it's been radio silence and that stuff. And so I do not have the authority to go deep on those issues. But what I can do is I can talk to people that have been injured and signed up by a doctor. And I can let them hear their voices and make sure they know that we are listening and we do care. So they can start the healing process. But more importantly, Greg, I want to give people permission to speak publicly about the injuries. And they don't feel that they're allowed to do that. Yeah. And we would allow it with any other circumstance, I think, in the workplace and any other medical procedure. We would talk about these things. We would talk about these things. Now, now, what, how would you assess what the federal government has done? They have paid out the data I see. Over $21 million has been distributed to claimants for injuries. But obviously there's been criticism. And I think it's been fair. It's been backlogged. There's some high administrative costs that dig into some of that money.

7:15And there's some pretty strict thresholds about how to define an injury. What are they getting right and what are they getting wrong about how they're addressing those issues? Well, I just don't think they're addressing them at all. I guess that's why we're trying to do just a small piece of this puzzle, right? At the end of the day, like we just, you know, we want to, so what they did right was acknowledge that people are being injured. And they set up a program. That's a good thing. We appreciate that. But what the challenge is, and if you got a chance to hear any of the stories, the nightmare it is for people to try and navigate the system, right? So you have a system where the public, by public health numbers alone, think that over 60,000 people were injured. 11,000 seriously, 3500 people applied to the program. 3,000 were accepted only 252, 252 people actually got compensation. So what we have is a large number of people that are injured at a very huge bottleneck. And people said they lost my files. I had a refilet. So, you know, now they brought the program in house as you're probably aware.

8:18So the question is you've got a government that, you know, as mandated and supports and encourages the vaccination. But you also got them compensating. So I'm going to wait with baby breath to see what they're going to do and how they're going to handle it. And like I said, I hope that they're listening and just saying, yeah, people are having a hard time accessing the program. And we acknowledge that people are injured. But once again, this is not denials and acknowledging. This is a government of Canada acknowledging that people have been injured. So what we need to do is we just need to make sure we help and get them help and get a bit of a quicker fashion. And people understand how they can do that. And that's part of the reason for why we're doing this is to, you know, help facilitate that process. I also think your inquiry is trying, I hope it's successful to take a giant leap forward and document. Yes, public health institutions are made out of human beings and fathers and mothers and adults. And they won't always make the right decision either. Sometimes health advice changes and alters over time.

9:20And I worry that there's been such a wave away from trusting public health institutions. I get why, but I don't like to see it because then practical stuff, right? Dean, even like measles outbreak, some like these things wouldn't be transpiring in part if the public hadn't lost trust for public health. And until public health takes responsibility for some things, it's like a relationship. If you're not going to acknowledge some of the things you get wrong in a relationship, you're not going to trust the other person ever again. Well, and how do you build the relationship you have conversations and dialogue? One of the biggest challenges we've heard is that docs actually can't talk about this stuff. So the way we help people out is by having conversations. I mean, doctors by very nature are consultive. Like they talk to each other, they try and figure stuff out. You know, you talk to a specialist because a GP doesn't know everything. And we slowly shut down the conversation at every level, not just with the patient or the injured, but with the docs. And it's a full circle thing. And so if you want to build trust again, then have some transparency, have conversations,

10:24encourage debate, right? Science has never settled because it continues to evolve over time. And that's okay. We're not saying that everyone got a vaccine, got injured quite contrary. That was the case. But it's undeniable that a number of people were injured and not just injured in a small way, but significantly. And so I think by having the conversation, trying to encourage people to take this out of your basement, right, to be able to have a conversation like we talk about cancer or diabetes or dementia, all those kinds of things. Like, you know, one of my good friends, Lisa Raige has done that. Yes. And dealing with her husband, this was not a topic of conversation that Lisa decided she would deal with. This is was thrust upon her. And instead of hiding it, she has made it very public. And so all of us can understand through her eyes the jury that she's going through. And I appreciate that because now I've learned something about dementia and care and all the things she talks about. I would have no clue about if she wasn't gracious enough to share those stories with us.

11:27I think so. Hey, I'll follow up for sure. But I urge people to check out these hearings online, have an open mind about it. Again, what I've liked about what you've done here, Dean, is frustrating. Even watching the Fauci stuff last month, everybody can have their opinion about Anthony Fauci. But I see Democrats acting like the guy walks on water. And I've seen Republicans who want to put them up on a cross and execute them in public. I'm like, can we have some nuance about this? Can we find a middle ground? Because we're human beings here. Dean, good luck today. And thank you for being on. I know we'll talk again about this. I appreciate you being on. Greg, I really appreciate you having me on the show. Have a great day. All right. Dean Allison is a conservative MP. A big week next week in Toronto, everybody's getting settled right, Labor Day, getting back to normal this week. But next week provides a tremendous opportunity for investment in our country. Look, it's one thing. It's not that he shouldn't be doing this, but it's one thing for the prime minister to be flying from country to country. You've seen the videos he puts out. It's good to diversify our trade.

12:29Maybe get out of some of our old ways. And if so, be less reliant on just one country. We need the United States to have a relationship with us and vice versa. But next week's a big weekend downtown Toronto, in essence for the Canada investment summit, immensely important to unlock a lot of investment over the next several years. A person who will be involved in, and I think watching it really closely, he's the former finance minister of the province of Ontario. And with Toronto Global right now as a lead part of their team, he is Rod Phillips. It's great to have you back on the show, Rod. Thanks very much for the time today. Jordan, great, great to be on the show. You're watching it from like a lot of different lenses. I'm sure what are your hopes and what are reasonable expectations for a successful summit for investors to invest into, of course, Canada, but maybe even right in the middle of downtown Toronto. Well, great. As you know, for almost 40 years, we have had a relationship that up until the last year has been coming more and more integrated with the biggest economy in the world, which

13:33is the United States to the south. And everything that's going on there and there's a lot to say about that and a lot that's been said about that. But that has become tougher by the day, particularly as we now trade shots on sanctions. So I think the prime minister, as you said, he's been out traveling, one of the things he's been doing while doing that is setting the table for this first ever Canadian investment summit, which is going to bring hundreds of international investors and CEOs and then as well as people from Canada. But to look perhaps with fresh eyes at opportunities in Canada around things like our natural resources, clean energy, our technology sector, you know, really put a focus on other types of investment. Now, their world, no doubt, also be investors from the United States here as well. But this aligns with what he's talked about, which is 70% plus of our trade goes one way to the United States. The objective is for it to go elsewhere. Well, we also want people putting investment here and there's a lot of money around the

14:35world. And, you know, it's a big deal to have all these folks in town. Yeah, give me a sense who's coming, not necessarily name names of your life, but what businesses are these CEOs in? What are they looking for potentially from Canada in terms of a short term or a very long term investment? There's different categories of what are typically called institutional investors, but you've got pension funds. We often talk about Canadian pension funds. So there are pension funds around the world that also have hundreds of billions of dollars to invest. Sobbing wealth funds, the one that gets talked about a lot is the Norwegian Sobbing wealth fund. You know, the Norwegians were a little clever than most. They had a lot of oil and they said, let's take it a couple dollars of that and put it away. And so they've got over a trillion dollars in money that they invest internationally. You've got very, very wealthy individuals. You know, when the Prime Minister was in India, I was in with them in Mumbai, there's people like the Andani family and others who are some of the richest people in the world who themselves have investment funds, similarly in the Middle East.

15:38And then of course, you also have the major US funds. But these are all global investors. They are looking to find ways to diversify their investment portfolios. You know, they're going to look at Canada for a lot of the things that people have thought of historically when we think about our natural resources, the minds that are talked about being open up, pipelines, clean energy, but also technology and the other things that maybe people are a little less familiar with if they're not from Canada or the United States. I think one of the things, well, you were in the provincial government. Your government did well. You were a big part of that being finance minister and of course beyond that. I think the Ford government deserves substantial credit for expanding and modernizing nuclear energy. And you had to do it with some yelling and screaming from people thinking, well, that's not the way to go. It is certainly the way to go. And we're a real leader. So some of it we've talked about right with oil and gas, but our nuclear energy is massively important and it's clean.

16:40It's reliable. And there's definitely other countries really interested in what we're doing with it, right? Well, we've got a jurisdiction particularly Ontario. This is very much to the credit of Premier Ford, Stephen Luchey, the Minister of Energy and Minds, who have been promoting this opportunity of nuclear energy. And then of course the world drifted away from it, became back, but it's always been solid here in Ontario, particularly working on the area of small modular reactors, which are the new opportunity, which are smaller nuclear operations. So that's an area where Canadian technology, Canadian expertise and Canadian experience, people are going to be looking at it from around the world. Energy in general, I would say Greg, whether it's nuclear, our more traditional oil and gas sector, the clean energy sector, including nuclear, but also the others, everything is about electrons and energy empowering the economy these days. And of course, with all the uncertainty in the world, in the places where people have

17:42traditionally got the oil and gas from, that's become even more important. Position Toronto as the global financial hub, I think we'd argue it's always been, but certainly at times things can waver and we can also tighten that relationship and build. So hosting the summit in Toronto, what does that do for cementing the city status as that international debt? Look, I think we saw it even sports fans, non sports fans were like, we can put on a pretty good show. We just showed it with the world cup. It takes a lot of money, a lot of infrastructure, a lot of people's time and energy, but I think it certainly would be valuable, isn't it, to keep Toronto on this particular map. I knew you care terribly about how we look and how we're perceived because it can mean dollars in the long run. Well, and as you know, one of my volunteers is I'm the chair of Toronto Global. Our job is to bring investment into the greater Toronto area. Toronto is the number two banking center in North America, after New York, one of the leading

18:43banking and finance centers in the world. People think about banks, but it's the insurance companies. It's those pension funds that I mentioned, half of what they call the Maple Eight, which are the big eight Canadian pension funds, some of the best global investors in the world are located in Toronto. And it's a city that has a great deal of sophistication when it comes to financing the bankers, the lawyers. It's great. You mentioned the World Cup, our pen and run last year. I mean, Toronto is on the global stage. People see it often because of sports. It's just why you see it. And Toronto shows well. So the prime minister has made the obvious choice. He also comes from the finance world. He understands that Toronto is a center, but never hurts to remind people one of the biggest stock exchanges in the world. These are the sorts of things that people will see when they're here. It's always good. It's always good to be top of mind with these folks when they're looking at where to put their money. I guess we won't know till we actually see this get going in four days with this massive event, but even just from 3000 feet, you observe this relationship.

19:46You mentioned the barbs back and forth, the sanctions back and forth. I think we'll be able to do well, make good and be friends again with the United States and be great business partners as well. Maybe it doesn't happen for a couple of years, because everyone's talking about the very tough game and it feels like we're getting further apart every day. How do you view it as somebody with a business background? Can we get this back on track someday? It may take different people. Can we get this back on track? We can, but like every, every argument or dispute, sometimes you can't be in too much of a hurry. It's become very, very political now. We've got two important votes happening with our referendum in Alberta and the election coming up and go back. Obviously, people talk about the midterms in November where the president and his party are running. I think you can even see in the nature of the tariffs, some of the politics being played out. I think that's the time we're in. But you are, I would agree 100%.

20:47There is not a version of the future where we don't have a pretty deep and important trading relationship with the United States, but as I said off the top, for 40 years, we were building in one direction, but really from Brian Moroni and Ronald Reagan, citing a free trade agreement back in the late 80s, that momentum has taken us to a certain place. Now, we didn't cause the situation, but now we're being forced to say, how far do we want to go on that? I think the Prime Minister is particularly well-positioned and wants to both give himself leverage. It's not, as you know, how politics work, Greg. It is not a coincidence that this summit is happening right after the trade talks broke down. This was something that the federal government knew could happen. Obviously, if it didn't happen, that would have been better. But if it did happen, this is a plan B. And I think that's where these two pieces balance out. And that's going to be better for the economy and better for Canadians. But we got to do the hard work. We got to have a summit.

21:47Great to have a meeting. It's good to have a party, but then you got to follow up after and actually get some deals done. That's where everybody will be looking for follow-through. And that's going to fall on Canadians, Canadian business, Canadian banks, Canadian government. Yeah. So well said. Rod, thanks very much for this this morning. Speaking of following up, I hope we can after the summit concludes. And I hope it's a big success for all of us involved. Thank you very much for the time. Thanks, take care. There's Rod Phillips, former Ontario Finance Minister, former MPP out in Ajax as well for us. It's a damn good one. Are you ready to win? Toronto, we have turned the corner. And we are feeling more optimistic. We have the momentum.

22:48Now we have to keep that momentum going. And let's choose to keep moving forward and keep building a Toronto. We love together. Let's see incumbent mayor, 69 year old Olivier Chao. That's a savvy politician. I don't think people quite get it. I think she's got some durability because she's been savvy. This is her superpower. She makes you feel good when you talk to her. Now that doesn't mean that the policies work out for the city. I think we're in a worse spot on a lot of fronts than we were three years ago. But to say she's not a savvy political operator. Of course she is. A lot of her core progressive base hasn't liked a lot of what she's done. And they've accused her of well, you didn't stand up enough on bike lanes, Ontario place, the Ontario Science Center. You promised us you would do that. And we are already well aware. No mayor, no mayor can go to war against Queens Park, the Ford government, the McGinty

23:50government, whomever. So you got to use your political capital where you can bring other people in. There are definitely federal liberals endorsing Brad Bradford. There are liberals sitting this out that I think are going to support Olivier Chao. It's all quite fascinating. Somebody who gave Olivier Chao a good go, certainly. And was I think the most impressive surprise of the last mayoral election that we had in the summer, 23 finished fourth was way ahead of city counselors Brad Bradford and Josh Matlow and a few others. That's for sure. Anthony Fury joins us now on Toronto today. I play that about Chao and I'm sure somebody will think, Oh, it's Greg Brady and Anthony Fury talking Olivier Chao. They're just going to use her as a punching bag. Policy aside, what impresses you about how she campaigns and how she politics? Yeah. Good morning Greg. It's so key what you said about Olivier Chao being being really smart and experienced in politics. People may say, Oh, I think she's dancing too much on camera and poke fun and then social

24:50media and so forth. And whatever one thinks about that, you can't underestimate the fact that this is a person who was first elected to office, first one in election 40 years ago in the city of Toronto. In 1991, a lot of people don't know this or remember this Jack Layton, her husband, Jack Layton ran for mayor in 1991. He came in second and there is a slate of candidates for council as well. Olivier Chao is on that slate. He got in to city council as part of Jack running for mayor and then they went on to become NDP MPs and and Jack being leader of the opposition, of course, but but this is sort of their original organizing grounds, their original stomping grounds and arguably the original prize, the Toronto mayoralty. So her victory the other year really was decades in the making and this is also not a prize that both Olivier Chao and her NDP friends are going to give up easily. So they are going to be very serious about reclaiming the seat and the reelection. I think what we saw last night and first of all, we can talk about this part later as well.

25:53It's interesting that she's managed to hold the campaign until after Labor Day. It's actually going to be a short campaign. The Toronto mayoralty is one of the longest campaigns in Canadian politics. But what she did last night, her slogan is a safe, affordable and caring seat. I think she's really pivoting to the center in all of this. Safe, affordable. I saw her give a speech a few months ago before she was actively campaigning but she was clearly testing out campaigns. Logan is at the Scarborough Business Association dinner where she went on about decreasing 911 response times, talked about the need to keep taxes low, to help businesses and to help residents. And I thought, wow, this is almost sounds like a bit of a center rights page. Now she's raised taxes incredibly high over the past few years. But the fact she's saying this now tells you that the strategy is a pivot to the center. I don't know how you observed this pivot. I'm sure not as dialed in then as I am now. But the 14 mayoral election was such an odd one right.

26:55You had Rob getting ill, couldn't run again. Doug steps in and runs for him. We can't envision a three time majority government winning premier and Doug for it. We just had different Doug Ford in 2014. But John's Tory steps back into politics after a couple crushing defeats. Olivia Chow steps in as well. But Anthony like she got dummy. She was a distant third in that race among the three well known candidates. And I thought, well, that's it for Olivia Chow in politics. And as you know, first hand, and I know nine years later, she rolls right in. And there was very much as you know, you announced your campaign early. And there was a she gonna run as she not gonna run. I'd heard from a very reliable person on a Sunday afternoon, but a week before she put her that she decided not to. But there must have been a big push to get her back in. And the timing was right for her to win. So you're right that she was out of politics for about 10 years. But I'll never forget there was a feature in one of the newspapers prior to her announced in Marilty. This is back a few years ago in the election that I ran in talking about how

27:56one of the things that she had been doing over the past 10 years was having small gatherings with young progressive activists around the city about political organizing and how to get the vote out. And you go, wow. So we haven't been seeing this lady necessarily on television and press conferences. But she has been going around and meeting with the small groups of a very passionate and involved young people to teach them how to politically organize and get out the vote. And as you and I who have had our political experiences learn, that actually can count for a lot more than getting your name in the newspaper a couple of times. So again, a very savvy operator. What are you seeing right now in the race? Some of the poll numbers are strange. I don't need to tell people who are observing. Child will get a higher percentage of votes than the 37.1 she got last time out whether she wins or loses, but they're just aren't the candidates. You split the vote. Mark Saunders, obviously Anna Bailau almost Peter. And then I mentioned the other city council to I'm sure they've come on the show.

29:00Council, Matlow, Council Bradford, they're like, oh, I got smoked. I like a will like I didn't do nearly as well as I thought because there were so many choices. What do you see in what's, let's call it a two and a half person race adding Chris Alexander into this mix? So I have felt for a while that the polling numbers are a snapshot in time when Olivia Child has not been campaigning. So last night she launched the campaign, but until then Greg, we haven't really known how is she defending her record? What is she saying she's going to do next? And what are the sort of talking points that that her, her proxies and her supporters are pushing out there? There's, there's kind of been a void. So I think everything changes this week as she gets out there and says, you know, who she is now, Councillor Bradford, who's been very aggressively campaigning these past few months has been, you know, we're looking to, looking to frame the narrative and frame Olivia Child's record. We'll see if that sticks. But I do think the campaign numbers, you know, she was doing very well, not

30:00campaigning. Now she's going to be out there campaigning and her team is going to be on full force pushing out their message and also giving her supporters messages to amplify. So I do think it's, it's to her advantage. Unless she doesn't read the moment and at least, and unless she, she says a message that the people are not going to gravitate to. And debating. I listen, I don't, I had people tell me this, they love the people, the people that told me this adore Olivia Child, they said, you know where she won't be good? Front facing in a crisis. And I'm like, well, that crisis, she landed on Toronto after October 7th and the reaction to the Hamas terrorist attacks. Of course, I think she's handled that miserably, terribly, apathetically. But I, I, Anthony, I don't know how many times like it was documented. She didn't show up at the Jewish Lawyers Association. She takes her, her canning for that from a lot of people. And then guess what? It's out of the news cycle and people move on. So I, I wonder what weak spots you see that you'd advise, I guess the Bradford

31:02campaign to go keep poking away at this. Well, I think the main weak spots is, is your, or now, than it was three years ago? Is it easier to move around the city or is it more difficult? Do you feel safer or do you feel less safe? Do you feel that you can pay the bills more easily than three years ago? And the answer to all those questions is no. You know, Greg, I, I love this city. I'm raising three children here. I'm invested here. I want to keep going with it. But we know that life is, is not trending in the right direction. So I think that's the main, main point one wants to get across if you want to push for a change in leadership. Yeah. I think that factors in last thing for you. I don't know. I, we, I feel like we've got every politician at every level, weighing in on the American midterm elections. But you were recently there in the same state I was visiting my awesome uncle and add a few weeks ago. You went a couple weeks later to Ohio.

32:02I just don't think anybody's going in and pulling that lever in any midterm election and going my biggest issue is how things are going with Canada right now. There's no way it might be one of the periphery ones in Ancona be the biggest one. So the other day I bought the new issue for in a fairs magazine. It's just this collection of essays by American think tank people and former senior bureaucrats. It's generally sort of like a centrist Democrat type of lined publication. Interesting to see what everyone's saying with the consensus thinking. Certainly not a pro-Trump publication. You know, I like to read these perspectives. Very internationalist. And I would say very aligned with like the, you know, the Mark Carney, Christie of Freelin view of international affairs. How many mentions of Canada are in this new publication? Zero. I was recently reading a Long Reuters report on international trade and US trade. Situation not written by Canadian Reuters correspondent, but by someone in Washington. How many mentions of Canada? Zero.

33:03We got to be careful, you know, what we're doing here in terms of to your point, Greg. How much do we actually occupy their thinking when Trump puts out one of those craft memes, the littleing, you know, Mark Carney or what have you? Is he spending eight hours thinking over that meme or is he spending eight seconds doing it and flippantly posting it? As the other meme, the kids say, are we living rent free in his head situation? Or maybe I got that wrong. I never get it that one. I think you have it. I think you have it. We're not paying rent. That's for sure. I mean, you get what I'm saying here that we end is Mark Carney and the other politicians. Are they just doing this for domestic political reasons? Anyway, fully knowing that the Americans don't aren't as invested in this as we are, but it's good for public perception here. We just don't want to be walking away from deals or doing deals that farmers more because of our own domestic political situation. That'll be really unfortunate. That's, no, that's well said.

34:03Look, I think every incumbent is frustrating the non-incumbence, even though there's not going to be a federal provincial election anytime soon, just they're dining out. Trump talking, Trump criticizing Trump, the littleing Trump is rocking. Speaking of chow, like, come on, wouldn't you love to be on the debate stage with Olivia Chow when she says Donald Trump's responsible for the high price of eggs in downtown Toronto. And you're like, flesh that out a little bit for me. Like, no, like not at all, but it works for her. It's where it's apparently some people are believing it, right? Well, I, but to your point, I don't know if I would want to be on that debate stage because I think a lot of people are feeling that energy right now. So I don't see the connection, but I think a lot of people are, that's the moment we're in right now. I hear you. Anthony, great chat is always, man. Thank you very much for the time. Thanks so much, Greg. Anthony Fury with us on Toronto today. That's a really good election analysis of where it's at. And again, yeah, like you can disagree with somebody. You generally can disagree with, with ideology and policy, but then you document just how good they are.

35:08I can't tell you how many liberal and NDP, provincial liberals, provincial NDP MPP, they sometimes opposition leaders and they're like, how does Doug Ford keep doing it? How does and then something happens? He connects tells a story, some kind of stunt happens and they're like, oh, that's why. And I'm like, exactly that's why. So I've always told those parties if they're like, you want, you want my objective advice? Stop talking about him and just start talking about the policy. You try and make Doug Ford the villain. The public's decided for years on end now. They don't think he's a villain. They don't think he's a horrible person on mass. They think he'd be a fun guy to have his your neighbor on your slow pitch team or having a beer with. They decided that in three straight elections, you're not going to win that way. But keep, keep banging your head against the wall of you. So choose one of the more poignant stories as we'll have obviously a lot of poignancy. And I feel it to us living in the States at the time on the air in Detroit coming on at nine o'clock

36:09when the second plane hit the North Tower. But one of the more remarkable stories, I suppose of survival, but I'm awfully glad he's willing to talk about his experience is Brian Clark. Brian Clark was in the South Tower of the World Trade Center when the North Tower was hit in the North Tower was the first tower that was hit by American Airlines flight 11. He's one of the people that we can speak with that survived from above the impact zone in that South Tower. And Brian Clark is kind of to join us now. So thank you very much for the time this morning. I appreciate it. Good to be here. People want to talk to you about your story, but but all ask is the story cathartic is it is every day a blessing 25 years later that you don't mind explaining to people how, how close you came to not having this conversation or any conversations. Yes, no, I'm I'm fine talking about the events of my day. And all I'm left with really a sadness of a little event, but I, but I don't think about 9 11 on a daily basis.

37:14You know, you, you move to the world the future, you know, that's a better place to aim for living in New York at the time. I don't know what your next several days again with your close call with being in a tower of the World Trade Center. I'm sitting in, you know, suburban Detroit, Michigan going on the air every morning, but we all wonder, didn't we? When will it be okay to like, like literally smile again? We'd come home at night one night. I just burst into tears looking at all the photos of all the missing people. Right. And all the relatives and the boyfriends and girlfriends and husbands and wives that were looking for their loved ones. I'll never forget that. That's what I've been reminded of all week. Like I like just couldn't have felt normal for you for weeks or months on end. Well, that's true. We were, you know, in recovery mode, both emotionally and structurally or business and so on. But we got on with it and the fact that we had so many people in it. Well, I'll just frame it this way. We had 250 employees on the 84th floor and that day we lost 61 of them.

38:17Now, a lot of people left early to get out of there thinking, you know, who knows what's going on? I'm going home and everybody was fine with that. But there were some folks that lingered up there, including me. And about 50 of our people were killed up there that day at that time. I didn't see any of that carnage. So I didn't have that memory to deal with. But as a group of people, the remaining employees, you know, round numbers, one hundred and ninety of us got back on the horse together. And that was, I think, what made us go forward successfully. There was some emotional moments, but we all had a focus on getting the company back together. So that that that was a great relief. Brian, oh my goodness. Together. Of course, Brian Clark is our guest on Toronto today with Greg Brady. He escaped the World Trade Center South Tower. The North Tower crashes at 846. You're in your office on the 84th floor. What do you remember about the minutes after that with you reacting?

39:19Obviously, to something you never ever thought you'd see. Absolutely unprecedented. That's right. There was this loud at 846. I was typing away at my keyboard and boom, boom. The lights flickered. This was the building getting hit next door. Lights flickered. Peripheral vision caught something in the window. I spun around and 84 floors in the air flames going by my window, swirling flames against the glass. I had volunteered after the 93 bombing to be one of our fire safety guys. Grab my flashlight, got people moving. Thank goodness. A number of people left immediately. But also a whole bunch of us went to the North Windows, looked up nine floors saw a ring of fire around the 93rd floor next door and really didn't know what had happened. We just got on with the rest of our few moments. I called my dad in Toronto called my wife in New Jersey. And then at 903 boom, we got hit.

40:23It was just like, okay, I knew in a split second that it was terrorism. The room fell apart. I had had a flashlight from being a fire, her safety warden. And I let a few people into the stairway and we started down. Just remarkable. That conversation with your dad here in our city in Toronto. Quick one, emotional one. How does that go? Well, it was not emotional because, you know, high dad turned on the TV. Something's happened next door, the other tower. But I want you to know that, you know, our company and me, I'm fine. Nothing's happened here. But there's something going on. There's a, I remember using the phrase, there's, you know, there's an unraveling story about to come forward, not knowing that we'd suddenly be involved. You have to, you have to understand it was so unprecedented. Nobody was anticipating our building having the same trouble. In fact, there was an announcement in our building, not on just our floor and the whole building

41:28as people were starting to go down. Your attention, please, ladies and gentlemen, building to the South Tower, building to a secure. You may return to your offices using the stairs and the elevators. Repeat. Building to a secure. And in about five minutes, you know, this was five to nine, let's say, and at nine oh three is when we got hit. How long from the time you got out of the South Tower, how long did you, how long was the period of time you get out of the tower and then the South Tower collapses? What's the difference in time there? I'm estimating only just because I know the travel. I was with one other person that we ran south and got on the south side of Trinity Church. The two of us have estimated about seven minutes from leaving the complex till when it came down. And I'm glad that you have referenced this person. You met a man named Stanley. Your friends with him, apparently, to this day, a quarter century later, never met each

42:30other before. And I, you know, you may be humble about this, but the concept seems to be you saved his life. Well, as I got to the 81st floor with a group of seven or eight people, me leading them because I had the flashlight, a woman was coming up the stairs and she stopped us. And she said, no, no, you can't go down. There's flames and there's smoke. And you know, she was insistent. And none of us did pass her. She was, she was, you know, like a lineman and just wouldn't let us pass. And in the midst of the debate, should we go up or down? I heard a banging inside the 81st floor and went in and the other people all went up and all died that day. But I went in on that floor to find this stranger. And it got him out of the debris and we came back to the steps and I just had this strong feeling that down was a better test than hoping for help up top. And we dug through a lot of debris and smoke and so on and about the 74th floor.

43:32We got into normal conditions, a little when I say normal being fresh air coming from below and the lights on in the stairway. Again, you're, if I'm reading this right, you went to Thornhill High School, you went to secondary school, you went to U of T, you're a Toronto guy through and through. What's your connection with the city of New York? We all became, I will say this. I know we're all tense right now, but we're all honorary New Yorkers. The weird thing was Brian, I say this with a smile on my face. We all chaired for the New York Yankees and the World Series and many of us thought we'd never thought we'd see that, but we wanted that for the city of New York. What is your connection to the city 25 years later? Emotionally, I mean. Emotionally, I mean. Emotionally, I mean. Our company got put back together and we were, I stayed with the company for six years after that and then retired. I stay in touch with all those workers. In fact, Saturday, the day after tomorrow, we're having a big reunion. I'm going to a memorial service tonight organized by Caterfits Sherrill's who lost even more

44:36people, 658 people in the North Tower, but they, we merged with their company about five years after 9-11, so I'm connected to those people. Yeah. Once you have raised children in an area, that becomes your community. So we've got lots of friends and neighbors where we live and at our church and, you know, I do volunteer parts short times a month at a food bank. So you get into the community that way. I don't. You know, we're still happy living here. I'm still just a Canadian citizen on a green card, but nonetheless, this is, I'm coincidentally, my birthday is July 4th. I'm putting my parents, but it's kind of wasted on a Canadian. I don't think so. Well, there are Americans born on July 1st, I'm told. I'm going to try and get that confirmed in the next month. I'm so glad I'm talking to you. Again, thank you for this.

45:38And I know, again, busy memorial tonight, reunion tomorrow. I know how much it means, but I think our listeners appreciate you sharing your story. Thank you so much. You're quite welcome. I enjoyed the conversation. Thank you. It's great to have you, Brian Clark, a Canadian survivor of the 9-11 Terror attacks. 18 people got out of those two buildings after impact. He was one of them. Thanks for listening to the Toronto Today podcast. We drop the highlights of the Daily Show every weekday morning. Don't forget, you can hear the entire show on the radio at home on your smart speaker ask Alexa or say, hey, Google, play 640 Toronto or Toronto today. You can hear us on between 530 and 9 weekdays on 640 Toronto. Have a great day.