Thinking Christian: Clear Theology for a Confusing... - Becoming Pro-Grace: A Christian Response to Abortion Beyond Politics (Angela Weszley)

0:00I'm Christi Graham, host of On the Ground with Samaritan's Purse, and I recently interviewed one of our pilots whose plane was hijacked in Africa. I encouraged myself with that reality. That at some point, this is going to end in two hours. It'll end good if I'm on the ground somewhere walking around with the testimony. It'll end great if he pulls the trigger for me. It will end great. That day, Jim, experienced the power of prayer and witnessed just how mighty the name of Jesus is. If you want to hear this full story, tune in at Samaritan's Purse.org slash listen. The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that deny God. As such, we need thinking Christian to become as natural as breathing. Welcome to The Thinking Christian Podcast, I'm Dr. James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, thinking Christian highlights the way God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now, onto today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian on Dr. James Spencer.

1:02I'm joined today by Angela Wesley. And we're going to be talking about her new book, Becoming Pro Grace, Expanding the Abortion Conversation Beyond Life versus Choice. Angela's not open the off of the book, but she's also the CEO and founder of Pro Grace. It's an organization that really facilitates transformative learning experiences from Christ followers to break through the abortion divide. So the book and the ministry kind of go hand in hand. Welcome, Angela. It's great to have you on the podcast. Great to be here, James. Well, tell us a little bit about, I always like when I have author on, I always like to understand kind of where they're coming from, what brought them to this topic. And so what, what was your life experience that brought you into writing, becoming Pro Grace? Very interesting. So as I was growing up, I grew up in a household that to be Christian was to be pro-life. I didn't really, you know, question that. I did have some tension, even as a teenager, hearing it brought up in school,

2:02different things that happened. But I didn't get involved in the issue, right? I don't think a lot of people do, right? I was just like, I feel a little tense about it. I'm not really comfortable with it. It was just mainly my view. And so I spent 10 years in Christian ministry, and then we left that ministry we were with, and started doing some different sales work and different things. And when I felt like I wanted to go back into ministry again, I found a Christian pregnancy center that was in downtown Chicago. And when I read what they did, they supported women who were pregnant. And I thought, this is great. This will be common ground. It won't be political. And so I took that position. Actually, I took a position as Director of Development. 20 years ago, in 2005, and quickly realized, oh, this organization is smack dab in the middle of the debate. I had no idea when I came in. And I had no idea how Christians were framing this issue, especially those who were in direct service work with women. So that journey basically was, I was uncomfortable.

3:06I had trusted colleagues and wonderful people working around me who weren't trying to do anything offensive. Their hearts were really for helping women. I started feeling like we are not seeing the women. Like, there's a definite agenda running through here that this is about the child. And the way we talked to donors about it, the, it's even the way we advertised on our website that we would be a certain place. And then when women came in, there was more of a persuasion model that wasn't disclosed ahead of time. Things like that made me incredibly uncomfortable because I come from a more legalistic background and I had been freed by grace of true theological understanding of the radical grace of Jesus. And I realized walking into this, this is a very legalistic way of approaching this. It's actually not aligned with the gospel of grace. And that started me with a, I really did start almost with a theological deconstructing of, of why and trying to talk to people around me,

4:08the board, other, other staff to have a different framework. And I should say this because I tried to make changes right away. So I started leading the organization about a year after I came in and I told the board, I'm going to make these changes. We need to be equally for the woman and the child. And they were like, yes. And we were all like, how hard can this be? It was incredibly difficult because what I didn't realize is to have mental models that we don't even know where they came from. They've just been with us or with our stream of Christianity for so long that when someone says something different, it's like, well, have you switched to the other side? Are you promoting a totally different approach? And so I had to go way back. I wrote an eight page paper that I was sent to the pastor of the Moody Church who was thankfully connected to our organization. And I would write back and forth and say, this is how I think Jesus interacted with people and how he would value the woman and child equally. You know, this is what I want to implement for the whole organization. But it really was theology and heart change first before we could do any type of direct service work.

5:11So where that leads me to progress today is that I really started. I wanted to see my whole team, I should say. All of us wanted to see our partner churches be welcome spaces for women who are pregnant, whether they were connecting from our organization or within that congregation. And so we thought, do we know that everywhere is safe? Again, well-meaning people, but are we safe for this conversation? And that is where I started writing with a colleague that same theology in an experiential form for anyone in the church. It wasn't just for our direct service organization anymore. I developed a passion that we as the capital C church could have a theological paradigm that is not tied to either political party, but is really rooted in Jesus. And that's why I launched Progress about 10 years ago. So talk a little bit about the progress framework that you've developed. Because I think that is really crucial. As it, again, I've had some experience in this realm

6:13and I've found it very interesting, the way very well-meaning Christians understand the abortion issue and how the Republican platforms, the democratic platforms, very much shape the discourse around this. And so I think I'm identifying some of the same things that you're identifying is what we really need as a Christian mind about this, that we can approach this issue and really have a robust theological discourse about what's going on and see the problem beyond the political conversations so that really Christ can govern this whole conversation. That's a fair way to put it. Oh, that's a beautiful way to put it. That is my heart and the whole reason Progress exists. Because, and we were talking before the show, why you named your show Christianity without compromise is that you want to see Christians living out the truth of Scripture, which is the story of Jesus, right? And his whole example, he showed us who the Father is.

7:14And what I've realized along the way is that by defaulting to primarily political positions and for Christians to lead with I'm pro-live or I'm pro-choice and then use those same words, that same posture that is compromising our faith, is compromising our Christian witness because we have an entire canon of Scripture that shows us what God is like and neither political party is governed by that. They're not governed by what God is like. To be a political party, you have to rally your followers, right? So there has to be rhetoric, there has to be another side or sometimes even an enemy. And in this particular case, the messaging goes out that you're either for the child or for the woman, right? That's the, and actually when you think about the laws, they're viewed as a zero sum game. There's a winner and there's a loser. It's either legal or it's not. It's either better for children or better for women. And so everything around that gets framed in an either or

8:18and puts women and children in an adversarial role and then puts us as Christians, even in adversarial roles against each other, depending on which political party we are. So that's why the Progress Framework starts by stepping back and saying, what if we imagined laying that down for a second and I'm not calling anyone to not be political or to lay down political affiliation? Sure. What I'm saying is, what if we use our imagination to think how would Jesus interact with this issue? What's the actual Jesus-centered lens to view this through and make that our primary affiliation lead with that and then make our political viewpoints secondary? What would happen? I mean, it is kind of an experiment, right? Like, what would happen? So then I don't know if any questions about that before I launch into the actual theology of the Progress Framework. I don't think so. I mean, I think what I hear you saying is that really it's something that I don't know I take from Augustin,

9:19right? It's about the ordering of loves and that he's got this wonderful analogy. I've said it before on the show, but it's you take all your other loves and you throw them into the current of God's love, your love for God. And so they're immersed within that and they're then conditioned by it. They change and shift, but your love of God stays sturdy and strong. And that's basically what I hear you saying is, let's sort of nest these other things within a real deep loyalty and devotion to God. And when we do that, it's not that those things have to go away. It's that the way we interact with them is going to change because not even our first loyalty, our only loyalty is to God. We're giving him all we are and have. And because we've given all that loyalty to God, the way we interact with anything else is going to change. Yes, absolutely. And I would say there are so many thoughtful Christians on both political sides that that's their intent.

10:22We believe we're doing that, but we've only been given these two options, right? So that's where the rug comes is to really try to lay them down first and think, not just our love for God, but God's love for us. God's love for humanity really starts there. What does that look like? And that's the progress framework is rooted in these two theological points. The first is equal value, equal dignity. So that's everything we've talked about. There's a false binary. Are you going to advocate for the woman or the child where God is equally passionate about both? There's equal dignity for both. If we could just start from that posture, we start to see how so many of the political framing is not helpful because it doesn't take that into consideration. And that in itself can be a very uniquely Christian response is that we value the Amago Day in every person equally. And we're going to start all of our thinking, our conversations and our engagement from that place.

11:24That already shifts a ton. And then the second theological point is grace as the path for transformation. And so again, I do think there's a lot of judgment, there's legalism starting even within the church and how we view other people who may think differently from us or the other side politically. And I, to be honest, from my experience, even ourselves. I think a lot of this comes from not understanding grace for ourselves means that we have to pick some of these issues that we feel really Christian in, right? But when we understand that God loves us, exactly as we are and we can start from this freedom of grace and have that shape, every conversation and how we view every person touched by this issue, that then is the second piece of the framework that really starts to form this uniquely Christian response abortion and hopefully unite us as Christians around those things first, those shared values with Jesus as our model, following his example.

12:27And how do you, I mean, how do you think through, let's say you have a Republican and a Democrat, right? And they're both sort of champion in these causes. How do you think about bringing those two together other than lifting them out of a political party and back up into the body of Christ as their animating identity? Yeah. I mean, it just seems to me that the two pillars of that pro-grace framework, the Amago Day and the grace that we need to give one another, that we need to give ourselves, we need to give others. Those two really do point backwards as opposed to embedding us within any one political party. They remind us that there has to be something prior to these arrangements that really is where we should be rooting our identities in. Absolutely, yes. And so the, over the years, the community that makes up pro-grace actually are Christians who are both, who have to choose one of those political parties.

13:31And so we all do with the understanding that that political party cannot contain the heart of God. I would say that is the first place. If there are Christians who really believe that their political party is the arm of God, then this is not a conversation that's going to be helpful or resonant. And I don't know how to, I wouldn't know how to talk to someone. But does that have any of Christians that I talk to default? There's this sense of, well, there's a default. I'm uncomfortable with some parts of my preferred political side. But I have to tip somewhere. That is the ideal place. That's the ideal thought process of a Christian who can say, oh, actually, this would relieve my tension that I feel about my political party. If I could have my kingdom affiliation or my Christian affiliation sit above that, that actually, and again, it doesn't mean

14:33that we aren't still a Democrat or Republican. It means we don't lead with that. We don't try to stir up conflict with that. We do set it down for the sake of being reformed and understanding how much we've been formed by political parties instead of Jesus. So I would say that's what we do all day long. And one of the tools is, I don't tell anybody how I vote. I actually don't tell anybody how I vote. And you don't have to be that way to be pro-grace. But I just found it most helpful in my position because I will not be able to talk to people if that is something I talk about. But I talk about abortion all the time and I talk about it through this theological lens and have very productive conversations. And I never ask the person I'm talking to how they vote. Now, they might volunteer it. But the second piece is to be committed to not view my sister or brother the way I've been trained through a political party to see them as different from me

15:34because they tip to one side politically. I really think, as Christians committed to the Amago Day and graced, we will have more in common with each other than we will the fringes on our political party. And that, I think, is the challenge for Christians to see ourselves as believers first seeking this unity and then our politics second or third or wherever that falls for different people. I'm Christi Graham, host of On the Ground with Samaritan's Purse. And I recently interviewed one of our pilots whose plane was hijacked in Africa. I encouraged myself with that reality. That at some point, this is going to end in two hours. It'll end good if I'm on the ground somewhere walking around with the testimony. It'll end great if he pulls the trigger. For me, it will end great. That day, Jim, experienced the power of prayer and witnessed just how mighty the name of Jesus is. If you want to hear this full story, tune in at Samaritan's Purse.org slash listen. The following is not an actor, but a real-life story from Trinity Dead Management. Every day, I speak with people who are worried

16:36and are feeling a lot of pressure because of credit card debt. That's why I'm very proud of what we do at Trinity. We just help. We give people the support they need, along with a real plan to become debt-free. Credit card bills are consolidated into a single monthly payment that is much less than what they were paying before. Most of our members end up saving thousands and even may improve their credit scores by as much as 200 points. I know from the bottom of my heart that I'm making a difference in the lives of the people we help. It just makes me really happy. If credit card debt has you down, call Trinity at 1-800-793-8548. My name is Julie and I'm a Trinity counselor. Call me and become debt-free for keeps. 1-800-793-8548. I don't want to make this all about the politics, but I think it's a big part of this. I just want to ask follow-up question on it. It strikes me that what you're talking about,

17:38if a Christian needs part of the pro-grace movement, they're really rooting their identity back in Christ, not in their political party, but they are still participating in those political parties. It seems to me that what we'd love to see happen, what I would love to see happen, is for those Christians to say, let's say you're advocating for your particular party is advocating for the rights of women, but that there would be consideration at the policy level, an advocacy for, no, it also needs to care for the child. The balance on the other side of, we really want to care for the child, but we have to recognize that there are a lot of social and economic issues that we've got to care for. If we really want to make, I always go back to something, my wife says she works in hospitals a lot, and in these high reliability environments, they say, let's make it easy for people to make the right choice. And it feels like within that political environment,

18:40that's what we would want. We'd want Christians advocating for, yes, we want to have this child protected, but we also want to make it easier for women to make the right choice. And is that sort of how this would play itself out? Am I catching the drift of it? Yeah, this is a great conversation, because you're totally understanding. I just do want to stop on a word choice. We talked about this before the podcast. Yeah, this is good. Even saying, and I get why your wife is saying it in healthcare, because that means taking care of their diabetes or whatever. But I think helping women make the right choice is still loaded politically and has been used to a way that can feel very shaming to women. This doesn't mean we don't have ethical thoughts about abortion. And we can't really talk about it. I mean, there's a lot in the book about this, because I have 50,000 words to not be misunderstood. I have an ethical view on the act of abortion.

19:40Christians can have an ethical view on it. What I'm saying is when we make some of these statements that we've just been conditioned to make, it sends a signal that we still are going to be pushing people in some way, or we're not truly welcoming, or we're not without agenda. So the way I would frame it, theologically is that if we go right back to the mystery of pregnancy, and we think about God's design, he did not have to do it this way. We sit with the mystery of God. He could have done it a different way, but there is something we need to pause on that it's entrusted to women, first of all. And secondly, there's a man and a woman involved, which is also an important, I mean, you can already hear what I'm searching on, a lot of really important things. Women are entrusted to nurture another person. You know, they're intertwined for nine months. And the fact is that if you've ever been around

20:41someone who's pregnant, you understand anything we do to one affects the other, right? It is this intertwined relationship. If you want to get really meta-theologically, you can even start to think about what it says about all creation and how we're interdependent on each other, which is why I'm promoting this way of peace and reconciliation. So with that, I think going in with an equal value, equal dignity could completely refrain political discussions. And I am a dreamer. I could see that happening. I don't know how many years out, but I think it needs to start coming from Christians, like you're saying, because I think it comes from a uniquely Christian place of saying, listen, if we truly value both people, then how could we work together? Because both women and children deserve all these social structures you're talking about. We make it incredibly difficult to raise children. I mean, I don't know if we want to go into this, but we rank like 40 out of 40 countries

21:42in guaranteed maternity leave. So could Christians, from both parties, say, wait a second, enough, because of the Amago Day, we're going to step in and advocate for these policies. I looked to try and find common ground policies that had been passed in Congress. There is one that was passed about pregnancy and parenting, which was great, but it took like 10 years, because there's so little work across the aisle. And we are fighting about things that are largely irrelevant to people on the ground saying, this is all I can see to do, because of all these other factors happening. And it is one of the things that makes me the most crazy. And it's why I'd like to take attention away from the political, what we disagree on, and you hit it. There are so many policies we could work on together as believers that would show God's value and dignity

22:45for both people. And we're busy doing other things. Let me ask you this question, because this is something I've thought about, you know, Jesus at one point is confronted about divorce. And he sort of smile, you know, the Pharisees and Sadducees are asking him, like why did Moses tell us to get a certificate of divorce if God's against a force? And Jesus basically says it was because of the hardness of your heart. And what it suggests to me is that the law is there in some respects to manage human sinfulness. We often talk about it as a restraint. But obviously that it can't transform the heart and it isn't always prescribing an ideal. It's often dealing with brokenness. Right. And so I'm wondering that sort of leading for this question is how does the pro-grace framework help us recognize the limitations of the law, the limitations of the political environment, and how much, how far policy can go,

23:48I think policy is important, right? Laws are important, but they have a limit. And then that limit is where the church really needs to kick in. I go back to work by David Fitch. Maybe you're familiar with it, but the great giveaway. If you're familiar with that book, he talks about the church and how it's given away some of the things that are crucial to a witness to these different entities that are around. And I think politics and he references that too. I just happen to agree with them. We tend to lean on government like it can fix everything. Like if we just have the right laws and policies in place, like this will work. So how does the pro-grace framework help us to sort of step back and go know the church could really own this issue in a unique way without abandoning policy? But using policy supplementally and where to put it. Amazing. Well, first of all, when you put that book in the show notes, I need to read that book because I feel like we have, again, we have Jesus, the great lover of humanity as our example.

24:51And we have abdicated to these angry political rhetoric. I mean, it's exactly the whole pro-grace framework is rooted in that thought that God loves people far more than either political party. And as his followers, that love is what should be flowing out of us. And I go into a lot of detail in the book. But if you actually think about why the laws are needed, it's exactly what you're saying. They're managing people who are in a situation where they don't feel like there's any other option. And let me just give an example. Almost six out of 10 women who have abortions already have a child. So you're talking about people that value children, of course, they already have a child, but there are so many roadblocks in the way to raising that one child that they just can't see away to have another one.

25:51That is a very different framework than either political side talks about that Christians could rally around that and start asking questions. Why do we have a society that it's so difficult to raise children that this is what's happening? So that's a huge limitation of the law. It's allowing for something that a lot of people, and I know this from personal experience and interviews, a lot of people don't want. They're not growing up saying, I can't wait to have my abortion. I can't wait to exercise my right to choose. It's happening because there's pressures, there's blockages, there's societal realities, there's inequalities between the genders. I found research in the book. There's called the fatherhood premium and the motherhood penalty, and there's science behind in the workplace. Men make more money as they become dads trajectory over their whole career. Women make less when they become mothers. I mean, these are things all Christians

26:52should be deeply concerned about because we're not starting on an equal playing field in this country of having children. The second limitation of the law, I think goes back to theology, which is what is the whole gospel? And Paul talk about. The law was just in place to lead us to Christ. It can't actually change hearts. It's exactly what you said. It's a guardrail. And so just, again, owning this piece of our faith that says grace and Jesus are far surpassed the law. They're the fulfillment of the law. We've got to be thinking above laws. It's not to say laws aren't important. It's not to say we shouldn't be involved in policy, but you're exactly right to frame it as limitation and what sits higher. And that is actually caring for people. And it's the similar thought to what your wife was saying, caring for people so that they have what they need brings better outcomes than just not working together as a community

27:55and then just trying to limit everything with laws. It's why we care for people who can't afford food. What if people were breaking into grocery stores and we were like, oh, we really got to legislate around that? It's like, well, let's just make sure everybody has food. If we look at that first, the human condition, what's happening for people, much better outcomes than just legislation, so. No, it's really an interesting problem. And I will say I've shared this story with others, but my wife and I, when we were, when she was pregnant with our first child, the doctor ended up being a misdiagnosis, but diagnosed him with a genetic condition and actually referred us to a hospital where we could get an abortion. Yeah. We were at a Catholic health care system and kind of sent us over to a different place. We obviously opted not to do that and our son was fine. But I will say like we had, we felt that pressure. And I think one of the things as we've reflected back on it has been,

28:55you know, number one, you know, we're calling people to pray. We're asking questions. We're investigating as much as we can about what could be. But we also had a social network of people. My wife was studying to be, you know, she was working as a pharmacist at the time. So she had a professional career. You know, I was pursuing advanced degrees in theology. We knew we had sort of a social structure that we were going to be okay. Our finances were in order. Like we knew this would be hard no matter where it went. But we felt we had what we needed to actually do it. And I think as I've reflected back on that, I would say back and say, I can't imagine the immensity of the stress and pressure for someone who doesn't have those other pieces in mind. Yes. I would also just be honest and say, I think it's a horrible way for me to even be thinking through it because you start to start like kind of putting your faith in the stuff that you have as opposed to recognizing that just it's the wrong theological way to think about it.

29:57It's a factor. Sure, God has provided you with these things. But I think it's a really bad way for us to start those conversations. But either way, my personal connection with that suggests that we do need to look a little bit more broadly and think about how we can support people going through this. So they don't have to look at their own personal finances, their own personal capacity. And is this possible for me personally? It would be great if we had like a folk, you know, takes a village, right? To sort of support people. And so I'm wondering how you, how does the pro grace sort of framework and your ministry in particular? How does it, does it create that sort of broader community? What is it like? What does that look like? That's a great question. And by the way, you're basically describing the early church. So again, we have very rich theology for caring for people. So thank you for that. So so much in what you said.

30:58So I want to put a I want to put a bookmark in how pro grace helps facilitate those communities for sure. Can I ask you something first? Can you remember how you felt getting a diagnosis for a pregnancy that was so altered from your wife's and your dreams, your even your own reproductive story about yourself? Can you talk about the feelings that you felt in that time? Oh, yeah, I was completely confused, completely frustrated, completely angry because and it was a buddy of mine. I called him up and I kind of told him what was going on and he just told me he said, this thing sticks with me, right? He said, you need to mourn the life of the child that you thought you were going to have and embrace the life of the child that God is giving you. And that sort of changed everything for me. Not just, you know, it wasn't just advice that I was given that changed,

31:59you that would have changed had my son been born with a problem. It actually changed the way I thought about my son, period. I think it would, I think I would have been like a devil dad who wanted to live I curious through through my son had I not had that early experience with it. So I think it was a time just the advice you have to mourn it. There's a mourning that takes place a deep, deep sorrow about what's going on, amidst all of the pressure and confusion and stress and everything else. So you're kind of a big ball of lament at that point. Yes, you're a huge ball of emotions. And this is another limitation of the political debate is it's not the weights of the emotional impact of getting pregnant, raising a child is not talked about enough. And so that's why there are all these practical things. You touched on this deep emotional dark night of the soul piece.

33:00And we've done four bodies of research of women who faced unintended pregnancy. Now, when these women made all three different choices, parenting, adoption, abortion, either with this pregnancy or other ones, you know, in the study. And it was qualitative interviews to really get to the emotional reality. This doesn't say it's the emotional reality for everyone. But these results, and it's been over 10 years, these four different bodies of research. They were so consistent that the folks conducting the research were like, we can say that this is the primary emotional experience for a lot of people. And those, the three emotions are panic, incredible panic. You described it as confusion, but right would panic also be. Yeah. The second for them is isolation. So it's an incredibly isolating experience. Don't feel like they can tell their, their support system. So their parents, their partner, it's incredibly like, I'm alone with the weight of this, whether they are or not, it feels that way.

34:02And then the final is shame. And that's a very identity shattering. Almost like I have to mourn the person I thought I was. I'm no longer that person going forward. And it's not what people think about like, oh, that's selfish. They're not going to be able to do what they thought they could do without a child. It's an actual identity because there is so much shame of a single person raising kids or different things in our narrative. We don't even realize. It's like, I didn't think I would be, my life is over. I have to reimagine who I am. I have to think if I can provide a future for this child. And it all has to happen by myself in an incredible emotionally shut down stage. Within a matter of a couple weeks. And I think to hold the reality of that experience and to step into that as Jesus did with empathy and compassion and understanding for what that is like, can pull us out of our political sides and say, what do we have as Christians

35:06to listen? So that is one piece of what people who are living out and working out the progress framework is a much higher sensitivity to the reality for people with a lived experience. And the problem is in politics that can turn into an issue. We can talk about it like it's an issue. And the fact of the matter is, you know, it's one in four women will have an abortion in their lifetime. So chances are we're spouting this stuff to someone who had this experience directly or their child did or their partner did. And we're just shutting people out. They can't bring this experience because we're talking about it up here at the head level instead of living where Jesus does with this reality. So I just wanted to point that out since you had that experience. No, it's really helpful. And it was just a clarification on the studies. Were they primarily of women? Because I could see that the emotional response being drastically different between male and female. Because no matter how you slice it, I was a supporter in that whole thing.

36:13For nine months, I was going to be a supporter. I wasn't feeling any of that my wife was. And so I could definitely see women responding in even almost a deeper way because it's happening to them in their own bodies. So was the research mostly on women or did it look at women and men? I'm Christi Graham. Host of On the Ground was Samaritan's Purse. And I recently interviewed one of our pilots whose plane was hijacked in Africa. I encouraged myself with that reality. That at some point, this is going to end in two hours. It'll end good if I'm on the ground somewhere walking around with the testimony. It'll end great if he pulls the trigger for me. It will end great. That day, Jim, experienced the power of prayer and witnessed just how mighty the name of Jesus is. If you want to hear this full story, tune in at Samaritan's Purse.org-flashlisten. The following is not an actor, but a real-life story from Trinity Dept Management. Every day, I speak with people who are worried and are feeling a lot of pressure because of credit card debt.

37:14That's why I'm very proud of what we do at Trinity. We just help. We give people the support they need, along with a real plan to become debt-free. Credit card bills are consolidated into a single monthly payment that is much less than what they were paying before. Most of our members end up saving thousands, and even may improve their credit scores by as much as 200 points. I know from the bottom of my heart that I'm making a difference in the lives of the people we help. It just makes me really happy. If credit card debt has you down, call Trinity at 1-800-793-8548. My name is Julie, and I'm a Trinity counselor. Call me and become debt-free for keeps. 1-800-793-8548. Great question. This research was all on women. I have another, I've been involved in understanding another study that did involve men as well, and so two just really short interesting things about this.

38:17One is in the study of all women, they didn't even mention the partner at all. Even when they talked about being pregnant, it was almost like they got pregnant by themselves, because they made this horrible decision themselves. It was really heartbreaking, so that's that isolation. Not only is she carrying more, she feels like he's, it's her, and that's this cultural narrative that it's all on the woman. In the studies that the other organization did, the men are feeling their own version, like you said, panic, isolation, confusion, and there's this wall then, because she's feeling like she has to carry it all. He wants to support her, but doesn't know how. And so in most cases, it created a divide between the couple, which is we don't, again, we don't have a framework, and there's an essay in the book by a psychologist who says, we have no framework for men to process their grief over reproductive issues. And so they're much slower to process it, where the women are much faster.

39:17And so again, there's just this divide between the genders that I would argue could also be healed by Christ, if we would just pay attention to the emotional reality. And I know it's challenging for a lot of women to think about inviting men into this conversation. I get that, and I'm sure you get that. Men have done some incredibly horrible things around not listening to women, or every time I watch a movie where the woman is ostracized for the pregnancy and the man is just living his life. Right? I mean, there's just so much baggage going on. At the same time, we can respect that and hold that and understand when that's hard. I think two truths can be true. It's also true that we won't see the healing we want as the body of Christ unless both genders are welcomed into the conversation. And I think men can do it with a real sense of humility and respect. And not you're not taking it personally right now, I said it's hard for men and you're hosting this podcast. You are modeling exactly what men can do to bring a healthy framework.

40:21You're listening to women. You're wanting to understand, but we need to be advocating together for this understanding. So yeah, no one I think it's interesting because I mean, even as my wife is going, so we've had three biological children, the second two were twins. And so it's all as fun when my camera does that. We're just going to leave that on. Yeah, AI fun. But we've had, so we've had, you know, she's gone through two pregnancies and I could always escape. Like if it got too stressful, I could leave and I got to go to work. And I, you know, I still got to go work out or whatever it was. My body wasn't changing the way hers was. And so it was just different. It was very, very different. And to process some of those things, I got to be isolated from it. Even if I'm just sleeping in the same bed with her, I'm isolated from it. She's got something, you know, growing inside of her

41:21that she's dealing with. So I think, you know, overall, when I look at the landscape of this relationship between men and women, I get the complexities of it. I don't know, surely I'm guaranteed. I'm not the one to solve it. But I understand the complexity of it. And I could see why. It seems a lot of times like men may be being callous about it. When really, they're probably just trying to figure out how to do it. Yeah. You know, I'm a one of them, I callous, but anyway, I need to recognize that. And to again, going back to God's design, he designed women to do this. We are very strong in an amazing way that we can do it. We do go through a lot. And he didn't design us to do it alone. So he designed it to do it within family, within community. And when that's not there for women, to your earlier point, what type of community is the church of Jesus going to be? So when you asked about the progress,

42:22approach of the progress community, where we have landed is it our calling, our mission is incredibly narrow. It's to help Christians have a different paradigm, to think differently, to talk differently. And then what flows out of that is Christians starting to engage differently naturally, in their family, where it comes up. But wanting to engage more, which is fantastic, we need more Christians engaging in the issue. So we partner with and refer to trusted direct service organizations who are already doing that work. So what I found is there's a lot of Christians seeking to make our society more just for pregnant women before, during and after pregnancy. There's a lot of people doing that in a lot of different organizations. And I was part of one of them. After we switched the pregnancy organization, I should say, that's the end of the story. We changed the entire approach to be one of listening, advocacy, equal value, no politics.

43:23And I love that type of work. And we work with other organizations that do that. They're part of our learning community. But then we also refer to trusted organizations that we know are doing this work in a non-political, Jesus-centered way. Because I believe when we unlock the way Christians think and talk, we're going to see so many more Christians wanting to engage. And I want to keep connecting them to these organizations that are always doing that, already doing that great work, because our plate is full with the paradigm shift. And then I think the paradigm shift will lead to so much fruit. Again, I'm a dreamer. So I feel like I can see all these things that could happen. But I'm not going to be the one to do them. We're going to lock arms with other people and churches as well. We've had some incredible churches. There was a group meeting at one church that had the church had a school. This is when I was at the pregnancy organization. We would have churches run these support groups, which is a great model in their organizations doing that.

44:24But this particular church wanted to figure out a way to really be with and for the women. And so they were scholarshiping them to their school, their daycare and their school. Like, what do you think a Christian church can do? And that's why it looks different for every church. But the progress framework was actually awakened out of having these support groups for women in churches of the women we were working with at the pregnancy organization, watching what was happening as they were welcomed in. So the whole dream started with that happening, women being welcomed and these needs being met. But our calling is way upstream with, hey, let's get the Christians community acting more like Jesus. And then those things will flow out of us. They absolutely will. Yeah, I love that. I mean, I think it's actually the right approach because on some level, we have to have the up, you know, this has to bubble up from the bottom and come down from the top, right? It has to be sort of a multi-angle kind of thing

45:26because I can envision the conversations you have about pro-grace with people. And I mean, I'll say even, you know, just the comment you made about, you know, don't use the right choice language. It's like, I hear that and I appreciate it and I understand what you're saying. And I can see how we could sort of explain that sort of deep theological understanding of pregnancy and, you know, birth and union between man and woman. And then I sit back and I say, what's really a deeply sort of ingrained conviction of mine, right? Then I'm expressing there. And so how, you know, I can only envision the difficulty you have going into someone and saying, hey, we've got this new pro-grace framework. I can almost see some people going, we're already doing that. Right. Right. Yeah, and so how do you what do you find as the most challenging aspect of your work?

46:27And, you know, give listeners an idea of how they can rethink toward the pro-grace framework. Here's we kind of come to a close. No, that's what a loaded question. Wow. And one thing would be, you know, one difficulty would be being misunderstood because I wasn't saying with your language change that you can't hold these convictions. It's more just that that's not sacred language. Like that didn't come from the Bible. So it's just like, let's just take out all the language that can be misunderstood. And let's communicate our conviction in the same way. So that is one challenge is being misunderstood with that. And people thinking they have to, I'm that pro-grace is asking them to change. Either their ethical view on abortion or their political view. Yeah, we aren't. We're inviting. And this is hard for people. There's no framework for this. Because again, this such a strong mental model. You either are pro-life or you are pro-choice.

47:28You're with me or you're against me. There is no mental model for an invitation to gently lay those down and just imagine how would Jesus be interacting if you were here. That is probably the most difficult thing. And with that, I would also say, part of our mental model is, oh great, how do I go help other people? You know, this whole idea of direct service is also a very strong mental model. There are people who are very close to me who still think after 10 years that pro-grace works directly with women experiencing pregnancy. And I can't, and I can't get the model of that mental model. Like, you know, because that is what we think. And so getting people to understand the church matters. What matters is the church acting like Jesus that the goal of a pro-grace approach is to look more like Jesus. Full stop. And for people to really trust that, well, first to understand why it's important. But to also trust that, that when, you know, it's like,

48:29do you have a secret? That's kind of why I just mentioned right choice because there are progressives or people on the left who would hear that and think, oh, pro-grace has an agenda. Because she just agreed with him that there's a right choice. And it happens on both sides, right? People think there's an agenda. But for people to really believe, no, all that pro-grace is doing is inviting people in twist-based where we can ask, how can we be more like Jesus? It does take people a while to get it, to trust us, to kind of process it. And so that's why I wrote a book was to have a longer form and we have a court as well. Because it is hard. Even, we've had 40 minutes of great conversation. I'm sure people still have questions. So, yeah, I just have to be patient. I'm not patient. That's the hardest thing about my work is I have to trust that it's God working. And if we just keep saying this over and over, people do eventually say, oh, my gosh, I've been waiting for this. Thank you. But it can sometimes take a while. So. I think it's sort of what you're talking about, resonates that I did. I mentioned I did a lot of work on politics

49:30over the last couple of years. And one of the things that I had trouble with is sort of what you're describing. When people would hear me talking about, look, we need to back this up, nest it underneath our vocation to point to and glorify God. And that may mean that we set down our political tools occasionally, exercise restraint, you know, all these different things. People heard me saying, don't participate in politics. Right. But that wasn't what I was saying. And so when I was sort of, I had a, I don't, I wouldn't call it a debate, but it was kind of a debate. And the gentleman across the table was saying, you know, if you're saying you shouldn't participate in politics, that's crazy. And I just said, I look, I go, look, my wife and I just adopted. Have you adopted? And he's kind of like, no. And I'm like, I'm not sitting here telling you you should. I'm just not. I wouldn't. That's crazy. So why are you doing it to me? Wow. Like there's an individual discernment that we have to go through on some of these things.

50:30And I think that's really part of what you're saying is. Like let's get to that point where we can reimagine things and we don't have to be red or blue. Right. You like, let's just pull it back. And now we're discerning. Now we can come up with maybe different actions that we can't see right now, because we're so blinded, you know, we're standing behind the elephant and the donkey and we just can't see it. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. And the thing that the elephant and the donkey keep us from from talking about is this Amago Day that Christians could unite it around. But if we keep thinking that our brother and sister who's on the other side is either anti-child or anti-woman and we don't start extending the benefit of the doubt that every thoughtful Christian values the Amago Day and everyone, you know, that's the problem here is the actual, it's not just that it's politics, it's the way the politics are framed up. Keep us from understanding each other and make us think the worst about each other. When again, I really do believe

51:31like you and I have the same commitment to the Amago Day. We don't have to tell each other how we vote. There's so much that we can, and I think this is what we're just trying to call people into. It's not just an invitation to be wishy-washy, there's these core theological tenants that run through the middle, but it's asking God to be bigger. We're trying to make God bigger into how He could creatively help us solve some of these problems to your point, acting like a Christian first, not a red or low, so. Yeah, yeah. I love that. Great. The discipleship will open up opportunities for us, and I was go to that verse in Ephesians, God can do abundantly more than we could ever ask her think. That's what I think discipleship opens up for us. It opens us up to the opportunities God provides for us to participate in building his kingdom in ways we can never ask her think. Amen. And it's through his power that works within us. So there's this partnership that he's calling us into.

52:32That's beautiful. And it's actually how I close the book, that passage from the message. So I love it too. That is the dream. Yeah, we're on the same page. Well, Angela, this has been great. We're kind of up on time. I want to respect your time. Give people where they can find the book and also learn about progress, your ministry. Absolutely. So progress is at prograce.org and the book is there. It's also on Amazon. And I will just say, if you are an Amazon purchaser, that's the only way you can review it. Is it people purchase it? So if people want to like get exposed to more people and they're thinking about buying it, you can buy it there and review it. But go to prograce for different ways you can enter the conversation because we have a lot of different resources. Not everyone wants to take a course or read a book. But there's a way to start the conversation and wherever you're at, wherever your curiosity level is. So thank you. I'll include those in the show notes and just a reminder for everybody, I want you to go to Amazon and review the book after you've read it. But I also want you to purchase this off IVP.

53:33They give us a 20% discount and so you can use the code in the link. So buy it off IVP press and then head over to Amazon and give it a review. Yeah, head over to Goodreads. So you can go to Goodreads without progressing it. There you go. Buy it from IVP. I love IVP. I didn't realize they did that. So yay. They're really cool that it's been awesome to have IVP authors on. And so anyway, Angela, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate you coming on talking about this. Appreciate your ministry, great deal. And just excited to see what the future holds for you. So thanks for being on. Thanks, James. I love what you're doing. All right, everybody. We'll take care and we'll see on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Take care, everyone. Just want to take a second to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to LifeAudio.com, you'll find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.