The Wine Makers – Jan Krupp

0:00The Radio Missfits Podcast Network. Welcome to the Wine Makers. This is Brian Casey with Danielle Langlois, Bart Hansen, Sam Couturri. Sit back, pour yourself a glass, and let's see what we're getting into. Welcome to the Wine Makers. We're here on an interesting day in Sonoma at the Tation House. September 1st. September 1st, Fields, Monsoon, and Rain. Right, we did it really? Yes, I was in it. We were picking rain to my house, but when I came down the Valley Floor was completely wet. Highway 12 was wet driving out to the University of school. It was morning puddles in front of a little puddles in front of like a Molina. I guess it just isn't rain at my house. Where I'm at. Anyway, I'm here with Sam and Jasmine, and we have Dr. Jam Crup here from Stage Colch. Go, Coach. Vineyard in Napa. And also Crup Brothers.

1:00Welcome. Thanks for the invitation, Bart. Very welcome. And we're very welcome. So we were approached by someone that you work with, that you have an upcoming book coming. Yes. But it has not been released yet, correct? Correct. It's going to be released October 27th. And could you give us the title and a little touch about what it's about and what it took to write it for you? So the book is called Forging Eden. And it's about the creation of Stage Coach Vineyard, one of Napa's biggest vineyards. And in my opinion, one of its best. I mean, isn't it the biggest vineyard? Is there something that's a larger track? I think the only thing that's close in size is Antica. Across Rector Canyon from Stage Coach. Do you know that Vineyard? Yes. That was, it used to be... With bread and... When it was Antenora, when it was first opened in the 90s.

2:03It used to be called Atlas Peak. At the peak. And then Antenora bought his partner's out, he's renamed it Antica. Okay, that's what I was saying. Okay, awesome. And so Stage Coach is at the end of like Sutter Canyon Road, right? It is. But the road to Antica's built to get to Stage Coach. I had to create a new road and come up with 25 legal... 145 legal documents to deal with 25 neighbors to get easements and road construction agreements. So that was one of the obstacles to overcome to be able to plant Stage Coach Vineyard. So the property was landlocked? It was landlocked. Yes. Wow. And we set the size of the parcel and actually how many planted acres did... Was it when you... When I... The first parcel that I bought was 750 acres. I was living on a 41 acre vineyard at the time. And by the time I got done, it's 1400 acres.

3:05And there are about 500 acres of grapes there now, 351 are Cabernet Sauvignon. So, wait a minute. I know that you... Before you bought Stage Coach, you had your state property. I did. And where is that located? That's on the other side... That's on the Southwest side of Rector Canyon. So that one is almost at the end of Sutter Canyon Road. Antenories is at the end. And, you know, I can see a lot of Stage Coach from my back porch or I could when I owned that property. But that's... That was my first commercial vineyard that I created. So, it was not planted? It was not planted. Okay. And you found it and decided this is what you were going to do. But you must have... There must have been something driving you to come to Napa and look for Vineyard Land. Yeah. Where was your... Where was your discovery of wine that led you to that? Ah, discovery was a long time ago.

4:06When I was a doctor in the public health service, doctors in the public health service have pretty reasonable hours. So, my friends and I would get together, at least once a month, we cooked for each other. We'd brown bag wines, European and American. We'd teach each other about it. We'd research the varietal. And in Phoenix, there was also a drive-up liquor shop. It's called Jacks. I've been to those before. Really? Yeah. I lived in Arizona for nine months in Glendale. And I had dreams of going to ASU. But I was destined to be in the wine business because I didn't do very well in school. Ah, was this in between the record shop in Kenwood? It was. Yeah. It was right when I graduated high school. You know, my father passed away. All my friends were going away to college. My mom came up with this scheme for me to live with a family that moved there that was one of my best friends and got a junior college and maybe helped me move along.

5:12And I just wasn't a good student. So you moved along into the wine business? Yeah, so I came back. Better forklift than ever in the US. Exactly. It seems like you've done well at that. It's a beautiful, sending bond. Thanks. Thank you very much. Anyway, I want to go back to you. Sure. So, happy to go there. Drive to Likers Park. Drive to Likers Park. So, yeah. So Jack introduced me to a lot of great wines of the world at reasonable prices, things like Muton, Rothschild, and Burgundy's. And I couldn't understand why they were so reasonably priced. Till later, I heard from a friend who stayed in Phoenix that Jack never paid his taxes. And so he ended up in jail for giving me good deals. So, wow. When I went back to the savings on of the customer. I mean, that's commendable. It was a great deal, Sam. I never would have gotten a taste of this one. That is out, I don't think. So, what year was that? So, that was in 1972 to 1974.

6:12And then after that, I went back to Stanford. And the wine industry was just taking off again in California. Maybe for the second or third time. Right. It was pretty exciting. So, I was tasting Ridge wines. I love Ridge Monabello. I found a good deal somewhere on Chateau Margo. I fell in love with that. And I said, I've always loved growing things. I would just love to be able to grow some grapes that could create wines as good as these two wines. And so, go ahead, Sam. That's the kind of thing that you aspire to if you're at Stanford. Right. I'm going to grow some Muton. I'm going to grow some Monabello. I'm going. I'm going to have to get to Stanford first. No. Sorry. That's okay, Sam. I was an odd path to get into the wine business. But for 17 years, I was a home wine maker. One of my professors at Stanford, he and I got to be good friends.

7:15And he said, you thought you had to take good care of very sick people. Now, I can teach you how to make wine that's better than most of what you can buy. That was off where I couldn't refuse, Sam, because I was already in love with wine and good food. So, I learned how to make wine in his garage with another resident at Stanford. And that continued for a long time at my home in Irrinda. Where would you get the grapes? First was in Sonoma County. Yeah, from the Taldesque vineyards. Yeah. And then got some good grapes, won some great awards, and really fell in love with the whole process of making wine. And then got some grapes in Napa in the Stags Leap Area from what was then the week's vineyard. And again, won some amazing awards. So, I figured, I can do this. Now, even if I figured that. So, as I got tired of medicine, income was declining. Paperwork was increasing. And taking care of sick people, saving them is a good thing.

8:16But after a while, it can burn you out. So, I started looking for vineyards. I started in Sonoma County. Vascular surgeon I worked with, really great surgeon. He said, you know, Jan, I've tasted your home wine. It's not bad. I've got a vineyard in Hildesburg. I'd love to sell you. So, I took a care of a look at it. So, I took a care of a look at it. But the economics of it didn't seem to work. I had another friend who was a radiologist at the little hospital I worked at, who had started a really terrific vineyard in Stags Leap in Napa. And he said, you know, Jan, the prices are much better for Napa Cab than Hildesburg's in. And Gowl is cutting some of those contracts. So, maybe ought to look in Napa. So, I looked in Napa. And I've been doctor of internal medicine. So, comfortable living, but not rich. The vineyard seemed pretty pricey to me. I looked in Stags Leap. What year was this? That was back in the late 80s I started looking.

9:18Yeah, I remember that. That was time when the prices, those prices would have been hard. I mean, high. High, if you didn't come with a fortune. And my wife at the time said, well, you're just an internist, Jan. You better forget this dream. I really didn't want to forget it, although paying $40,000 a acre back then was for a shardnave vineyard on the flats in Stags Leap that needed to be completely replenished. I couldn't see how I could make that work. So, it's about to give up. And then one day I saw an ad in the San Francisco Chronicle. It was for 41 acres. And I couldn't believe it. It was under 10,000 an acre. So, I started hiring smart farmers, Sam, like your dad. I didn't hire him at the time, but I have known him. He wasn't a politician of for now. I didn't do it in the late 80s. I took up more years. It would have been a little rough. At any rate, the farmers I found to look at it thought it would be a really good vineyard.

10:21It was up at the end of Atta's Peak Road almost. If my kids would survive the drive up and down the road. So, I said, if we can find water, we're going to buy it. And we found a lot of water. And I started planning it. I said, this is a lot of fun. So, it was raw land. It was partially clear. It was very rocky. Yeah, very rocky up there. Yeah, too rocky. And my first nine tons, I was a doctor, not a real accomplished bit of a culture like you or your dad. It was hard to sell it. I made 50 cold calls. Knocking on doors or calling on the phone. Glenn Sabah, who ran antonore's vineyard, said he could make the wine for me. We'd sell the bulk. He said it was a bad market for Cabernet. But that didn't seem to make sense either. You were this first crop this first time? The first crop was in 1993. Yeah, yeah.

11:21You remember, huh? Right through the great vintage. Yeah. So, finally, Brown Hill was looking for grapes. And Charlie Abella interviewed me and his wine maker Mark came up. And they decided to take a chance. So, the first nine tons went to Brown Hill. And then, people that had looked at it, and were a little late to pull the trigger, like Mike McGrath at Con Creek, and were like, oh, just admire it looked at it. They were like, I was going to say we should be giving some dings for that host. Sorry about that. That's how we, that's how we, that's how we acknowledge the two of us. Super good, super good. That's important, man. They're important guys. And so, the next year, when I had a lot more tons, those guys wanted back in. And Mike McGrath took some for Con Creek. I found out that, when you're asking, you needed more grapes. So, I invited Warren up. He picked the grape that Justin wanted. So, I didn't get to sell this. How much is it?

12:21How much is it you're getting a ton at that point? At that point. I think there's a blow people's mind. Is that good question? That was, I think around 3,500 to ton, boy. Yeah. And isn't it amazing what it got to? It is amazing. Yeah, it is really nice. Sorry, go ahead with your thought. Okay. So, anyway, Warren was a lot of fun. I was anxious to sell to him, because he had won the judgment in Harris. Right. And he looked at the vineyard, and he found it appealing. And he said, you know, Jan, this looks pretty good, but if you can't give me a sample of grapes made from, wine made from your vineyard, I'm not in. Call me again next year. I said, well, round hill, my grapes to round hill went into a blend, but, you know, I've got a barrel in the basement. I'd like to make home wine. He said, okay, that'll do. So, I brought up a sample from the basement. And he and his wine maker and Randy Pace all tasted it. Warren looked at me and said, you know, Jan, this is an epiphany. He said, it's like when I tasted Nathan Fays' home wine,

13:24I decided to settle in Stag's Leap. He says, I'll take that block right in front of your house. So, that was fun, and the grapes were selling. I thought it good prices. And the farm I had was efficient, so it wasn't that pricey to run the vineyard. I started looking for more land. And then one day I saw an ad on the telephone pole at the top of my driveway, which said 750 acres. Okay. And it was like 2.4 million. I said, this is really cheap compared to what I was looking at at Stag's Leap. I'm going to call the realtor I bought the place I live on, and have him call this guy, and we'll investigate it. So, other kind of more seasoned ventures, like Jess Jackson and Bob Miner and Warren, in my company, looked at it and decided it wasn't going to work. But, you know, being a naive doctor

14:25who thought I could make anything work, because I could save almost everybody. I decided I would give it a try. So, I hired Rick Aldin, who was the viticulture for Stag's Leap, and we rented a giant backhoe, and a step on Yama, who was my farmer at my little vineyard. We all went out there, and the realtor I guess is a big backhoe. And we dug 76 pits. And Rick climbed down on all the pits and did three levels of soil samples. And when we got Donnie said, you know, Jan, if you can deal with the rocks and the scrub, I think these will be some of the best grapes in the world. So, that was encouraging. So, I showed it to other people, and some said, no, why don't you do something in the valley? It's not easier. This is crazy to take another rocky vineyard. But again, I like to knock my head sometimes. So, I gave it a try. And there are some real obstacles, Sam, to making this work.

15:27One of them is that property was landlocked. So, I had a very good lawyer, Sonoma County lawyer, Jay Bimke, who created 145 legal documents with 26 neighbors so that we would have a legal way in and out. And, foolishly, I guess, my brother and I and my dad, we had closed on the property before we had that. We had found water, which was another obstacle. My lawyer told me, you know, Jan, it's illegal to landlock a property. So, you know, Bart and I decided to go ahead. It was mostly Bart's money at that time. And he talked my dad into it. Only later, Bart's my brother. Only late and Bart's here too. So, only later. We're not upload your mind. We've been holding out his whole time. You know, Sam, only later, we learned that you couldn't landlock a property, but you couldn't necessarily create a huge vineyard and drive all sorts of great trucks.

16:29So, Bart and I didn't realize but we were really at risk at that time, you know, his money and my time. But, eventually, we got all the neighbors to agree to these easements, which provided us the opportunity to bring another partners with lots of money, and three little banks joining in a consortium. And we were able to plant the first 200 acres. Wow. What is the elevation change on Steve's coach? Well, the latest property I bought goes up to about 2,700 feet, and the property down by Rector Canyon is about 900. Most of the grapes are between about 1,400 and 1,800 feet in that window. Most of them. And planted primarily to Cabernet, you said? Yeah, Bart. Out of the 600, 500 acres I planted on that vineyard, 350, one were Cabernet, so in your own.

17:29So, I know that I've tasted B&A, Marston, Rousseau, the Sera, the Grinache. You've tasted all those from Steve's. Yeah, Jeff Cohn, I've tasted a lot of Jeff's wines. I've also tasted the kale wines. Other ones excat me, but those are the ones that come to mind for me. Yeah. There's, how many varieties total? 17. 17, okay. So, one of the first difficulties in establishing the vineyard was getting all your neighbors on board, getting investors on board. And then you started planting, you planted 200 acres. How bad were the rocks? The rocks were bad, Bart, but even before getting that easement, finding water was really hard. I was easy, sorry to digress, but as easy as water was on my 41 acre vineyard, on the other side of that canyon,

18:30nobody had found good water. And that's one of the reasons Jeff Jackson passed. He was sorry later, Bob Minor passed, and later Warren passed when I wanted to become an investor. So, water was a big obstacle. And being trained in science, even before medicine, I figured, well, I'm going to hire the best geologist I can find. And he came out and he said, drilling these five spots to 300 feet. And if you don't find water, you better work more weekends at your hospital. We didn't find water, but I didn't want to work more at the hospital. I was getting sick of it. I probably shouldn't say that on your podcast. Okay, we won't tell anybody about that. Good, don't tell anybody. So, it's only parts of my mind. Good to know. The well-trial I worked with, I said to Dave Best, I said, Dave, the geologist is struck out, what would you do? And he said, you know, Jan, there's this young man that's had a really high batting average

19:32at witching wells. I would call him. So, he came out and he spent a day, you know, dodging ticks and poison oak and mountain lions and rattlesnakes. And he called me that night. And he said, Jan, you need to come out tomorrow with your well-driller. I think I found an underground river. So, I looked at him when I got out there. I thought he was crazy, but I didn't have much to lose. The well-driller was reasonable for test tolls. So, we went down to the 300 feet where the geologist told us to stop because of hard pan. And the well-driller said, you want to go further? I said, this is my last chance to do something I love and leave medicine at least partially. So, we went further. At 430 feet, we found an underground stream, not the river of the water, but kind of like a river. And so, we went back to the five spots the geologists love. Jilled them all to 500 feet and they all had water. And now there's 16 wells up there.

20:33And a lot of acres that you can keep, almost happy in a heat spell. That's amazing. Yeah. It's amazing. Because water witching, I've never understood it, but it's amazing. It's like a weedee board. If you believe, it'll lead you to where you need to go. Yeah. I mean, really. Yeah, a little bit of luck. A little bit of luck. There was a guy who used to work for Enterprise. I mean, I don't know if I would have put drilling a 500 foot well into his hands, but he would be able to find pipes in the ground when he was ripping. He'd know where the... He'd go and... And he'd watch it, like in his hands, his two metal rods. And if he was walking over the pipe, all of the sudden the rods were crossing. I think, all right. It didn't work when it was in my hands, but it works. It works about a third of the people saying, I had a patient who was a road builder and a site preparer for big developments.

21:34And he had that talent. And he showed me that it works. It does work. It works. It's well. So you farmed the vineyard. At some point it started to become profitable. Yes. That would imagine. Yes. At how many acres did it take you to plant? How many years? How many years? That's a good question. Do I really remember? So we started planting a 95. And I think by... For sure, by 2000 it was profitable. Maybe even a 99, but in 2000 for sure. And that was partly due to my error, Bart. I didn't really know what I was doing. I wasn't a bit of culture, it's like Sam. And so it was a cool year. And my customers had loved the crop in 99. And so I left too much fruit on the vines in a cool year. And I don't know if you remember 2000 if you've been at this that long.

22:34But all of a sudden the big rains came. And all my 90 winery customers, maybe I didn't have 90 at that time, but a lot. They all wanted to pick the day before the rain. So we went crazy. We were picking and sending trucks out at midnight. And then everybody wanted to pick after it dried up a little as soon as they could. So then we were getting tractors stuck in the mud. I was going down the hill for coffee and burgers to keep the pickers working. And it was just a nightmare. And I learned my lesson then that you can't over crop in a cool year. And maybe you should never over crop if you have good customers. I got into it. I've learned a lot. And then I also learned partly from my brother Bart, your name's sake, that one of the things you should do is always have more tractors, more forklifts, more trucks than you think you'll need. Because if something goes wrong, you can do it. That's, yeah, that's great.

23:37That's great. Who was, who were some of the first wine makers to really buy in and work with you? Like really kind of tell you what they wanted. And you had enough confidence in them that you would, that you knew you wanted to work with them. Look, Chris Howell, the cane was an early fan. And Warren Warroski was an early fan. Jess Jackson's wine makers at one point, Marco de Julio and Charles Thomas. And the third one Greg Upton, I think he passed away. Yeah, he, I think you're right. Yeah, I think anyway, they came up and they thought these would be some of the best grapes in the world. So listening to those guys and seeing Warren finally want to invest. And Chris was a big supporter early on and really educated me that some blocks were worth more than others and stuff. I had one price for everything.

24:37Yeah, those, those guys were really helpful. So North of you, South of you is Pritchard Hill. Correct. North of you is Atlas Creek Peak or the other way around. The other way around. Yeah. When you were, when you first bought the property and planting it, were those areas heavily planted? No. You, you guys were fairly early up on those bridges. Yeah, for instance, continuum didn't exist and the one that silver rope that Shapelay's been there a lot longer than I was. That's probably the first. I think the long zone, some of that property and I don't know if they had started their wineries when I started. But the Oakville Ranch, I mean, it's not the top of Pritchard Hill, but just below. Just below the stage, you can see it. You can see it. You can see it. And Oakville Ranch from that. And I was inspired by it because I knew how much Dave Miner like the grapes there. I knew your dad was farming it and I learned some things from him about Cabernet Frong selections.

25:40Yeah, I could see it. And there was an old historic road from the 1800s, 1870s, something that used to go from stagecoats all the way down to the Oakville Ranch and then out to the Dala Bala gate there. And the original farmers from 1870 or so German immigrants used to take their grapes down that way by horse and wagon. And when I asked one of their descendants how they maintain the road, I said, did you use your horses for that? He said, no, they were too valuable. We used wheel barrels. So the name stagecoach came because of that road. And because of Soda Canyon Road, which stagecoach is used to come up and they would there was a town up there way back. Did I hear a story somewhere along the way that I remember that Black Bart, the outlaw Black Bart was known to me. Yeah, I remember three on Brian's list of questions.

26:40The Black Bart like to say the land history includes the 1800s stagecoach robberies of Black Bart. Brian was like working really hard, maybe chat GPD. I was that rugged outlaw era past influence the character of stagecoach is a white man. All right, Brian, let's be real. Talk about the whole thing that Black Bart was is he was a gentleman, robber. He was a gentleman outlaw and he would he would write a note explaining why he was robbing you. Because that's where the money was. And the notes were poetic. And he'd only take the Wells Fargo strong box because Wells Fargo had done them wrong. He never would take a person wallet. And he would get to these robberies on foot if you can believe. And he never had to fire a gun. And then I don't know if you know how they caught him, but he he liked to dress well. So he used to take his clothes to a Chinese laundry in San Francisco. And then one of the robberies he dropped a small garment.

27:41I don't know what it was that had that ticket on it. And that's how they caught him. It's it's rumored that when he got out of jail Wells Fargo hired him to teach him how to avoid stagecoach. But I don't know if that's true or sad. That's a good one. All right. What else is Brian? He's very poetic. From ICU to vineyard you traded busy medical practice for rocky waterless 750 acres of man's side in Avelle. You know, I don't know if he gave this to us and then he thought he or I'm definitely trying to, you know, burn him a little bit on this. What was the first medical diagnosis? You made about the land and how did that guide your plan? Dehydration. The hydration was fun. Rocks in my belfry was another one. And I really wasn't qualified to make that diagnosis until I hired people like Rick Aldean, the viticulturist for Stagsleap.

28:44Now he works for Agajanian vineyards, which you might deal with. And a stab on that who had managed the vineyards at Antenora's place until they really told me what they thought until I brought some other people up like my radiologist friend who had a great vineyard in Stagsleap out of a rocky mountain. I couldn't really make, I needed a lot of consultation before I could make a good diagnosis. I mean, what was that land prep like with those rocks up there? I've seen it in properties in the tops of mountains with the size of those tractors that you need to rip that up and move those rocks and try and find some soil. It was very difficult, Sam. At first I started with 10 wheel dump trucks and I broke so many of those that eventually my heavy equipment mechanics said, why don't you buy some rock trucks? And we started with a 977, which obviously was inadequate for the job.

29:46So I rented two D8s and they would struggle with some of the big rocks. So eventually my friend, the road builder, found me a D9 and it had been completely rebuilt and one too pricey. Eventually we got into excavators and then at a certain point I had to learn how to use dynamite. You know the mines we planted on the south side of Richard Hill, we used a lot of dynamite. They were so rocky and those were very expensive to plant. So Sam, to make states that happened I took out a million tons of rocks, about 2 billion pounds. And then you probably know I sold it to Gallo in 2017 and they've taken out more rocks. They wondered why I didn't do more rippings. Have they planted more of the redeveloping up there where they redeveloped? They have a permit to plant more in the acres I bought before I sold it. So there's a lot more, I shouldn't say a lot more plantable ground but maybe 70 or 80 acres more.

30:52That's quite a good. Especially in this market. And this market, but this Gallo. Even in the 25 years, 30 years that you were planting that the cost of planting 70 acres on the top of the mountain of gun. Yeah. Way up, way up. And you know there's way more rules around it and you know the erosion control and all of the things that you have to put into doing it. According to the rules of Napa Valley, Napa County. Probably double those costs from when you started doing that a lot more. More than that. Especially because the new acres are in a very rocky section. You know, so the first land I planted had been farmed by the German immigrants in the 1800s. And they gave up at Prohibition and deer, a lot of deer. So that land was pretty easy relatively because they didn't have big heavy equipment. They had horses, you know, and plows. So you know, I think those first acres. They only cost me maybe 40 or 50,000 a acre.

31:54Because they planted where the dirt, where there was soil. That was dirt. Right. And then by the time I got to that side of Pritchard Hill, I mentioned, I'm embarrassed to say maybe 250,000 a acre. Sounds about right. Yeah. And the land that Gallo has a permit for is just as rocky as the last land I planted. Right. It is on the south side of Pritchard Hill, which is southwest side. So that's valuable stuff, but not cheap to plant. And even those German immigrants, I mean, we've talked about this in regards to Montereyso a lot. You know, a manual Goldstein. What it would have been like to plant a vineyard on the top of a mountain in the 1800s. Yeah. You know, horse drawn equipment. Yeah. I mean, it's still an insane undertaking. Right. I mean, doing it with tractors was hard enough for me. Parts been telling me about the state hospitals. Maybe if you guys could have insane, I'm not going home. Well, the one in Sonoma is closed. I don't know. I don't know.

32:54If I'd be welcome. Sam is monorosal very rocky like stagecoach. It has parts that are very rocky, but you know, in the same sort of way. I mean, I think that when those folks in that time were looking for vineyards on the mountains, they found the places that had some pockets of soil. Uh-huh. You know, there's that red soil. Yeah. Yeah. And all around it is insanely rocky. You know, the new vineyards that were pre-encame in and, you know, the carbonate property. Right. The carbonate where they were using dynamite to, you know, clear rocks in the 70s is right next door. So, you know, they, one of the, it's one of the values of the old vineyards is those places that they chose when they could choose anywhere. Um, are usually pretty good sites. Yep. Yep, I agree. So how has the partnership been with Gallo? I mean, I, I feel that Gallo's been with their acquisitions and things that they've done in the business.

33:58They seem like a pretty good company to deal with. Yeah, they've been great. But they've been, um, were they buying grapes from you before? They were for the martini property for that high end wine they make there. Uh-huh. So, so I already had a relationship with them. They knew the grapes were good. Um, and yeah, they've been, they've been really good to deal with. And the negotiations to sell it to Gallo, they were very fair. And we had a lot of discussions. But I thought it worked out pretty well. I mean, isn't it great that you were able to sell to a company that understands farming as opposed to a venture capital thing or, you know, something like that? It's, I agree, Bart. And that turnie I knew said, well, why don't you syndicate it? Why sell it to a big company? I said, no, this is, I really like Joe Gallo. I like Roger Nebidi and their good people to deal with. Um, and have been ever since, you know, they want to keep me involved in the stage coach tastings. They probably shouldn't say that on the year, but they often offer me some really good blocks for my own wine.

35:04And at reasonable prices, it's been a great relationship. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about crop brothers. So crop brothers, you know, I started as a home wine maker, even though I had done vegetables and fruit trees. So, one stage coach was going really well, and I could see it was going to be profitable in 99. So Bart and I decided we'd make a small test lot of Cabernet, and we did. And we've gradually expanded. And like a doctor without an MBA, I was in, I was intrigued by all the wonderful varietals I've planted. So you probably know we've made a Sera and a Tempernillo blend and a couple of cabs and Shardinay, B&A, Sauvignon Blanc. I've had a lot of fun with it. I think we've made a lot of really good wines. I've worked with some talented wine makers. Shout them out. Who are those wine makers that you've worked with? Jay Bunn, Kristianny was really great. Aaron Pot, really terrific.

36:08Julian was good. Julian Payard? Yeah. And then my current wine maker, Desiree, started as part time. And she's been terrific. It's been so much fun to blend with her. She takes an interest in the vineyards, sees things when I'm not walking. She walks more, sends me pictures, has had some good ideas about coopers, experiments with new barrels. And she's found some amazing coopers. So I assume when you started, you did custom crush somewhere else because we did. And but now you've purchased a winery a few years back? Yeah, we started 99 doing custom crush and then after selling stagecoats, my brother and I thought, oh, we'd like to have a winery. We can make better wines with our own wine. And so we did that and we remodel it. Kind of a state of the art, little winery. And where's that located? That's in Napa, right.

37:09Next to the Coonsville lines, kind of between Coonsville and Oak Null. And we've been pleasantly surprised by how good the grapes are there. When fires came and people were fused the grapes, we figured what do we have to lose. So we made wine and we cleaned out the smoke tank. And we're really impressed. So we use a lot of those grapes plus stagecoats grapes now for our own wine. And do you still have the 41 acre home ranch? No, no. My wife talked me into moving to civilization when Siri Tired is a teacher. She found it was pretty isolated up there. So that's when I bought the 13 acre home ranch that I live on now. So the original 41 acres never went into, it was never part of Crop Brothers? No, not on that personally. Awesome. No, also we got more of Brian's well-constructed, well thought out.

38:09Because he's going to listen to it and be critical. I hope he does. We talked about the water challenge. What did that teach you about problem solving? Dig deeper. Okay, well let's take this one I want to get into. The three setback story we talked about the wells, talked about the neighbor issues with all the, you know, everything. The vandalized bulldozer. Yeah, that was early on. We just had that little 977, you know. And it was doing good work. And I don't really know who vandalized it. But when a step on called me and said, hey, doctor, your bulldozers up in flames. I said, well, can we fix it? He said, I don't think so. So at that point it was early in stage coaches life. And I said, God, if the neighbors really hate this much that they burn up a bulldozer. Do I really want to continue? But I did. I kind of suspected that someone who's kind of a wild guy and I had hired his son to run a backhoe.

39:13And his son was an incompetent backhoe driver, dangerous. And about two weeks after I fired this kid, that's when the book, but I have no proof that right. Right. But you're saying that you weren't surrounded by a bunch of like-minded people it sounds like. You were an outsider coming in and, yeah. And probably the scale of it they didn't like either? No. And were they vocal to you about it? Yes. Some of them said, you know what you're doing to the mountain and the wildlife and the wildlife and flora and fauna. And one of them was going on to become a supervisor at Napa. Her parents really didn't particularly like it. And then another guy who wasn't guy, but he was upset about it. And the only people that were really hospitable when I got up there was Antenori's crew. Glenn Salva, as you pointed out, Antenori didn't own at all at that point. But yeah. Just out of curiosity, the vocal opponents did they have vineyards of their own already?

40:18That's a good question. No. No. Do they now? You know what? When I built that road and got those easements, at least along the road, most of them sold for many multiples of what I was going on. One of the neighbors does have a vineyard now. Yeah. What are some of this? Since we're talking about struggles and things like this, what do you see some of the struggles that Napa Valley has in its future? Well, I think the struggles are there right now, Bart. I'm sorry to say that in all the years I've worked there since 1990, even. I've seen several down cycles and managed to fancy foot around them. But I've never seen unpicked grapes before. And this is kind of the third year in a row when people can't sell their grapes. They've even offered to give me grapes.

41:18We don't need any more expensive than free grapes. Don't you think? I think part of it's pricing. I think Napa has been an expensive place to develop and make wine. And I think Napa wines have gotten pretty expensive, even the ones that aren't special. I think part of it's that. I think the challenge is that you're probably facing. We are too in Napa. The GLP1 inhibitors, people drink less. The health recommendations seem to have flipped. I'm not sure that they're right this time, but they're not as positive as they were when the days of the French paradox. Younger people, not drinking wine as much. I don't know if they'll eventually start drinking wine. I truly do think that they will. If we can make it available to them and we don't do what we've done in the past, which is, you know, make people afraid of wine. I mean, they want to...

42:18You could say that they don't drink as much. That's fine. But they drink things other than just beer. They're into ready-during cocktails. They're into all sorts of things. Different classifications of beer, natural wine, all those things. They just need to find themselves traditional wine that tastes good. I agree. It's affordable. It's affordable, yes. I thought that was the given. It tastes good, affordable. And I think some of the wineries seem to really be changing their social media. My daughter showed me what Spots was doing. Really short video clips on Facebook and TikTok. And very appealing, really well done. And I think, you know, I'm not a marketing expert at all, but I think there are ways to reach young people that maybe are different than reaching baby boomers. Are there some other family members involved in crop brothers, children, and grandchildren?

43:19Yeah. My daughter does our marketing and runs our wine club. She's the only one. Is there a tasting room at crop brothers? There is. There's a tasting room in downtown Napa on First Street. And the winery itself has two tasting rooms. Okay. And how, if you shout out the website and how people make arrangements to come see or you open by appointment only? Good question, Bart. The website is cropbrothers.com. The tasting room. Yes. Okay. Are you P.P.? Yeah. Thank you, Sam. The people can just walk into the tasting room if they want. The winery you need to call or email and make an appointment. I think we're listed on talk as well as just going to the website sending an email. Okay. Awesome. Let's see what else. Let me talk about the book a little bit more. Yeah. Which is sort of the why. You know, what was the inspiration to sit down and sort of take this story and write it down and put it out to the world?

44:26And what surprised you about the story and that process that you know, you didn't, wasn't like the thing that you didn't know. And like the thing that while it was happening, maybe it was the most important thing but going back to it and revisiting that history that sort of struck with you. So I guess the main motivation is I wanted people to know how important great grapes are to making good wine. And I think stagecoach has a lot of wonderful fruit. And I wanted people to learn about it. And at the same time, I wanted to let them know that it wasn't a slam dunk. You just couldn't go out to some land in the Central Valley and plant a lot of grapes and have wonderful wine. So I think that was a main motivation. I do feel like the journey I went through was a little bit heroic. You know, I feel like Don Quixote tilting at Lindell sometimes. And I wanted to let people know about the journey as well as how good the fruit was and how important good fruit has been to so many wineries.

45:29When I own stagecoach, we sell grapes to about 90 different wineries. And often as you guys know, the vineyard doesn't always go on the label. Right. And so I wanted to give stagecoach some credit for wines that produced. Do you think a stagecoach could be built today? Do you think that is anything out there that's left that could be? Is there even the political or, you know, economic will to do what you started doing? I don't think so. Sadly Sam, I don't think so. I don't know if you know Hall, Winery at all. But they bought a really nice parcel in Wooden Valley. Big parcel too. I don't know the exact acreage. And I think they spend 10 years and a lot of money trying to get it approved and they end up donating it to the land trust. They just gave up. Wow. And they have lots of resources to do it, you know, and they know about wine making in viticulture.

46:33So I don't think you could do it today. Yeah. The county has gotten really difficult, you know, and the permits take forever. My last permit to plant 90 acres, I think, took me eight and a half years and a lot of money and the Hall spent a multiple of what I spent. And never got it through. Never got it through. So yeah, it's hard. I mean, I think that's for me one of the important parts of this story is that it's sort of the end of that part of the Napa history. You know, those vineyards aren't getting, going to get built or developed anymore. No. Sort of what's there is what's there, you know. I think Sam, even when people got through the county, often the neighbors say not in my backyard, a neighboring suit. And that slows it down. When I sold my home vineyard to, I guess, accolade investors from China, they finally, after many years, got a winery permit.

47:39And then the neighbor sued and I think I don't know that it'll ever be built. Right. Yeah, yeah. It's not my backyard thing is a real thing, isn't it? It is. Bart, I mean, Leslie Hoops, right? Yeah. You know, they're struggles with their neighbors, the politics behind me. Right. Yeah. And there are restrictions in Napa that you guys are Sonoma experts, but it just seems like you can have weddings and more stuff that we can't in Napa except that are a few places. So the county's made it very difficult, I think, for wineries to thrive. And then, you know, for young people trying to break into the business, right? It was, you know, people came to Sonoma because Napa had gotten too expensive and then people went to pass a rubble because, you know, in there for a while, pass a, I don't think it took anything to open a winery. You just needed building and a plan. Right. And you could do it. And, you know, and I'm sure now that's getting more expensive and more difficult.

48:39Well, I will say, Solano County, it's a lot easier than Napa County. We have that green valley ranch, which you drive through Coombsville to get to. Right. It's Napa Valley access. Right. But technically you cross the county line and all the sudden, all the red tape and, you know, all the restrictions fall away. And it's a lot easier to get something in the ground and, you know, build things. Yeah. And it's just, you know, just over the border. I mean, could the two of you talk to this, this is a question I had, is there's something that goes on like for vineyards that go left un-affarmed abandoned vineyard. Right. Will the county come after you and find you for that? They're supposed, I don't know about Napa County, but I suppose when Sonoma County they can and can find you. I mean, this is the iron and I think I said it on the show a few times. I'm a brother quoted of property in Sonoma about $5,000 an acre to pull the vineyard at.

49:43Your average farming costs are about $5,000 an acre these days. And the county fines for not farming can be up to $5,000 an acre. So, you know, there's this sort of like. Nowhere to go. Yeah. Yeah. And you have to get a permit to pull that vineyard. You have to get a permit to pull the vineyard. And then can you go right back into the ground with it? Or is that another layer of animal? No, it's easier to go right back in than just to not to just let it go foul. If you let it go foul for too long, you have to reapply for a permit to put a vineyard in there. Wow. That was, we'll buckling right into that, you know, that whole field that gets covered of the mustard every year. And the hill there. The hill there, just north of the B.R.C. And then the tree was on, he had pulled that out with the intent of planting it again at some point. And then the permit expired and the county was being the county. And he left it for people to go get ticks and put some mustard bushes on their Instagrams.

50:45It is interesting, like, you know, we have our own issues in Sonoma County, obviously. Well, and you know, I will send this shout out to our Chamber of Commerce, Mark Bowen, Hammer. He's working now. We're going to have a meeting with the State Senator from here. Cab, Cab, Lebladon. I think I voted for him, but I can't pronounce his name. Calabodon, you know, I'm talking about. Yes. Yeah. And the, it is reaching the halls of Sacramento that the rules restricting the building of vineyards, the selling of wine, you know, the way that we have to operate within this, you know, fairly archaic system is part of the, not the only reason, but part of the reason that, you know, the wine industry is in the state that it's in. And hopefully they can work on some things and change some things quickly enough to, you know, bring some real changes and real relief. Yeah, I was wondering, like, free the grapes working on, you know, different shipping laws.

51:47And for other states, is there something like that for, like, lobbyists specifically for this region, you know, joining together? And because it's getting really prohibitive. Yeah. And there's already so much against you, let alone what Mother Nature is going to bring you every year. So it's, you know, you don't need the ABC making a more different. Oh, no. You're right, Jason. It's like, come on, man. It's enough. Just trying to put something on the table. Should we, should we go to Brian's last question since he's not here and we can make fun of him. Okay, doctors toolkit in the vineyard. As a former internist, you applied analytical skills and inquisitive to vineyard work. Did he read the, did he give you the red, the PDF? I don't. I didn't do it. I didn't make you read the book. Okay, we got a little reader. We, you know, we got a little screener from, from Jan and his people. But I did not. Did you? I, I, I looked at it and I intend to buy the book and maybe read the book.

52:48I'm a, in my hand. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to maybe download it. So what medical style approach to approach you use in the vineyard that other wine makers might not think of? But let's, let's get Brian on this one. Yeah, what do you think, and you talked about it a little bit with your science background. Right. But what if your, your background in medicine bring to both the development of the vineyard, the making of the wine? But actually, I, I have a theory that probably the thing that worked to your advantage the most was a little bedside manner with all those cranky wine makers. You're probably right, Sam. Yeah. In addition to that, which you're right is the most important having a successful vineyard. Treating disease in the vineyard, you know, a lot of the principles in medicine apply to, to the vineyard, you know, testing, getting experts to take a look, getting recommendations on treatment, what to do.

53:49You know, I had a lot of smart viticulturists consulting mostly, but also on staff eventually. And I learned from all of them. But I did bring an understanding of disease to the vineyard. And then they filled me in on what's different about a disease in a grapevine than in a human, because it's not quite the same. The other thing is an internist. I've been a doctor of internal medicine. I don't practice anymore. One of my skills is to look at a patient's blood work and kind of figure out what they've got or what to do next or who to send them to. And I find the same thing with pedios in the vineyards. Every year we do them twice a year and you look at what's going on with the nutrition. So I think those two things. Twice a year of pediosamples on a 500 acre vineyard. That's like a last hour work. A lot of people with green thumbs. We should probably tell people what pediosamples are. Okay, since you've asked me, we've done it. Yeah, so trying to figure out what the status or health of a vineyard you'll go out and you're going to pick the stem across from where a grape will grow.

54:59But you've got to remove it from the branch and take off the leaf as fast as you can because all the nutrients will disperse to the leaf. And you just want that little stem. You'll have lots of bags of stems. Back of stems and green stained fingers. Yeah, and hopefully not snake bites and be bites. And yeah, some of those fornosh vineyards were kind of scary. Like, please be a burdenest. So when you meet people and they ask you what you do, do you say that you're a doctor or do you say you're a grape prower? Pretty much say I'm a grapegoer and I own a winery. Yeah, but if they have a medical question, I'll help them answer it. I'll send them to the right place or I'll use my medical AI tool. Give me a better answer than I... Yeah, no, I identify myself mainly as a grower and a wine maker, but... Well, congratulations. Thank you, bro. Sounds like you've had a good life and enjoyed yourself along the way a little bit.

56:03A lot. A lot, yeah. So what are you drinking at home? Like when you reach for a bottle, what are you picking up? Not crop brothers. Right, not crop brothers. And you don't have to name a variety growing area, whatever, whatever fancies you. It really depends on what I'm eating. Or, you know, like last night I cooked a pork tenderloin in orange juice, sliced, and rosemary. So for that, I would either select a pin on a wire or perhaps a subtle white burgundy, you know, or California shardinay. I think of having a flay tonight and for that, I'll probably pick one of the cabs in my cellar from somebody like Aaron Pot or John Hofliger, you know, an Alpho Omega. They've aged really well. So depending on what I'm eating, it really... Awesome. But I'm going to think of what I can do with your shenanbunk.

57:05I said you have with a grand ashtray in there, both of those things. Alright, well. So the book is at October 27th. You can pre-order it now from Amazon. Either the online or the book, yeah. And the title once again is forging Eden. Forging Eden. How was the book writing? How did you do it? Difficult. Sitting right every day. Did you? Yeah. Well, whenever I had some quiet time, it wouldn't be every day, but frequently. And I got done, and I didn't like what I had written. I mean, it told the stories, but it didn't talk about the suspense and the adventure. So I hired a ghost writer. Really nice guy from England. And I started sending samples to my daughter, who was trained in journalism, working at, or my wife, who's smart and reads a lot, and to another friend. And they all said, this is lousy.

58:05So I let that ghost writer go. We parted amically, and I hired a much better ghost writer. But then it had to be edited several times. My daughter did a really nice job on the last edit. Yeah, it's taken a lot longer. What? How many did you start it? About three years ago. I don't know. It's staggering how long it's taken. It's like playing a vineyard. Yeah, you're right. It doesn't happen overnight. It doesn't happen overnight. At least not in my hands. And you're going to harvest an October. It's perfect. It is perfect. It is perfect. Even if it rains, the harvest will go well. Yeah, exactly. You can't rain on a book publishing. Anything else? Yeah, we got shout outs. Shout outs. Yeah, go for it. What do I say real quick? Jan, any shout outs or any events that you're going to be at or something going on at the winery, you want to shout out to our listeners? I might be busy. Yeah, good. September 19th, we're doing a barbecue with a water witch.

59:07The last water witch that I worked with at stage coach, a man named Thompson. I think everybody's going to get some divining rods and get a chance to draw. And we'll pair the barbecue with some of our delicious wines. That should be fun. Awesome. Sounds, that's something different. Yeah. That's great. Thank you. Yeah, awesome. All right, go for it, Jasmine. So if you didn't get early bird tickets for DTC already, we, that's all over. So, but you can still buy tickets. If there's just not going to be early bird anymore, golf for sums are definitely selling really quickly. So if you would like to golf while we're at the DTC wine symposium in Monterey, I would get those now. We also have some aquariums. Be the white maker's pie. I know we need to do that. Oh wait. Yeah. But we're going to, we're going to take a pretty solid handicap. And make sure to get tickets for the aquarium. That was super fun last year, having cocktails and looking at sharks and all the things.

1:00:08And sorbet Monterey. And sorbet Monterey. Yeah, we are getting 12 of our students. 12 of our Sonoma organic regenerative biodynamic wineries together. We're coming out to Monterey and we're going to do a little taste of sorbet at Taste of Monterey. Yeah. Yeah. I'm still having a hard time wrapping my taste of Monterey in the name of the place. Yeah. It's just a name of a business. Yeah. Taste Sonoma lines at the Taste of Monterey. One night only that one night only. Yeah. Hopefully they buy something. Keep it there. And they'll have a Sonoma set. We've got our industry party at 1600 September 18th. September 18th. Yeah. Okay. So you can go back. We can still go to the, okay, with the water which. Yeah. Absolutely. And coastas tacos will be here. I think Brian's getting a DJ. I don't know. Oh no, we got laid back Zach. Oh, laid back Zach.

1:01:08Who will lay back Zach? Tom, I'm going to say. Yeah. It's dope. Yeah. Another Brian busking in front of Oliver's discovery. Man, that's the best. The greatest recruitment tool. The man, the myth, the legend Brian Casey. He did better on this show than he does when he's actually on the show. That's pretty funny Sam. And we've got vintage festival right, Bart? We have vintage festival coming up. And I think tickets are selling quickly for the grand tasting on Saturday night. I know there's still plenty of tickets available for the taste or the dinner on the plaza and the horseshoe. But that will start selling quickly now as it gets close. And it's, they're doing a lot more PR on it. It's going to be out there. So yes, that's all going on the daytime festival. Come, you know, throw potatoes at Salamis. Time out to do something. Yeah. And take home a salami.

1:02:08Funny we were said sausages last week. Well, you know, I mean, that's a sausage. It's a cured sausage. Anyway. So yes, the vintage festival is coming. Of course, the vintage festival is ending up with an unofficial official harvest party. If you say it's official, you're the president. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not getting under that bus. The unofficial closing of the vintage festival is the harvest party at the barn on Denmark Street. Ronald Sunday. Who's the band? Crossby Collective. Jason Crosby and a list of off-stars to Alan Greg Lessiano, a bunch of other people. Jason Crosby is, he was, you know, in son of no relation, no relation, no relation. But just super talented keyboardist, he's played with a bunch of people, you know, he was in the Phil Lash and Friends and that world.

1:03:09Jackson Brown, tons of stuff. Yeah. And crazy talented. So his and his crossby collective sets are these awesome mashups. You know, he's the guy who's taken a friend of the devil and then Bloom from the Irvana and made it one song. Wow. He does like, slime the family stone stuff. It's going to be, can we really great show and then we got Tony Saunders and Keystone revisited. Sort of keeping it in the Garcia family to open up. So that's the opener and swim club making food tickets on sale. Awesome. Awesome. Keystone revisited. That was a live show. I can picture that album. Yeah, the Keystone was a club in San Francisco. I think it was in Berkeley. Berkeley, yes, sure. And it was, you know, Marl Saunders, Tony's dad and Garcia would go there all the time. Sort of, you know, build and not build. Sometimes they just show up and jam in this little place.

1:04:09It wasn't a whole lot bigger than this tent, I don't think. But there were, then they put out albums from it. Yeah. And, yeah, so this, you know, that's kind of where the Legion of Mary stuff sort of grew out of things like that. So that, you know, sort of R&B jammed out blues. Right. Garcia guitar. Yeah. Land. And so that's the 27th. So the end of vintage festival weekend. Yeah. Tickets are available on the website. And the harvest might be over by then. The harvest would be over by then. Yeah. I mean, you know, say that and it's 65 degrees in cloudy. So maybe there'll be some cabernet. How much more fruit do you have to bring in? Most of it. Yeah, we picked Tempernillo this morning and V&A last week. And Suburnion Blanc last week. But the cabernet is hanging out there. No, we know that every year the harvest is perfect in Napa. So I'll give you the opportunity to say that.

1:05:11Like you're, you like the vintage so far? I do. I think the slow ripening will make really good wines. Yeah. The rains have to hold off to make a perfect bar. But given that, it should be a good vintage. It was humid up there. Yeah. This is weird, man. The whole country is having this crazy weather. It is crazy. Just, you know, but it's not, it's not, I mean, I made. We know that for sure. Sad tongue and cheek. Yeah, I have relatives that tell me that. All right, everybody. Thank you very much for listening, subscribe, review, be nice when you review. You can have critical things to say, but be nice. And we will see you next week. Because we don't read the reviews, but Parks Mom does. And, you know, if you wouldn't want somebody's mother reading what you said about them, then they don't write it down. We'll see you next week.

1:06:11And by the book. And by the book. Thank you. Thanks very much. This was fun. Thank you.