The Walk: A Devotional Podcast from Worship Leader... - Jeff Deyo: Getting Comfortable in the Uncomfortable When God Calls You Deeper

0:00Hey, you're listening to The Walk, a podcast that dives into our journey with Jesus. One story, one step at a time. This episode of The Walk is brought to you by our friends at Planning Center. A love planning center, we use them here at our church, destination church, whether you're organizing Sunday services or scheduling volunteers, Planning Center gives you the tools to build a healthy, connected worship ministry from check-ins to giving music prep to communication. This is one platform designed for every step of your church. So start building your team and streamlining your Sundays at Planning Center, Planning Center. Where ministry flows better together. Second Corinthians 5.7 says, we walk by faith and not by sight. That is the Christian life. It's not just talking in the talk, but walking the walk. My name is Curtis Parks. I'll be your host this season. He's a lead pastor of Trinity Church in Waxahatchee, Texas. He was a professor at North Central University in Minneapolis. Singer of Sonic Flood. I'm talking to the man Jeff Dio.

1:01Say what's up, man? What's up, Curtis? How you doing, man? So good to be on with you. Bro, it's so good to catch up. I got to have you on worshipology a couple of years back. And, man, all the wisdom you shared is still resonating in my head. I'm trying to figure out how to implement all of that. But, dude, it is so good to have you on the walk, man. Thanks, man. It's so cool to be here. I mean, tell us kind of like, what's your up to today? I know you are lead pastoring, which is pretty new in your world. Like, tell us where you're at. Tell us what you're up to and all that good stuff, Jeff. Yeah, let me get you caught up. So you mentioned the Sonic Flood thing. That was back in 1999 and first couple of albums with that. Incredible season. Living in Nashville in those days and then did three more worship albums with GoTi records in those days. Moved away from Nashville 2010 to be a professor at North Century University. So it was there helping with the worship program, pouring into the next generation, making recordings,

2:02writing music, all that stuff. For 14 years. And then the Lord kind of had a shift in our lives. And as you mentioned, now since August 1st, 2025, we have been, I have been leading the church here, Trinity Church in Waxahatchee, South Dallas. So right here near Nelson University, what some people would know as Southwestern, some as a God University, or Sagu. So we've been here for six months or so. And man, huge shift, as you mentioned. But at the same time, what I've realized, Curtis, is that I have always processed everything through the lens of pastoring. So whether it was leadership, doing a podcast, writing a book, preaching, teaching at the university, it was always me trying to help pastor people into God's presence so they could know him better, know his word better. And so man, even though there's lots to learn, and I've never been the lead pastor of a church,

3:03I feel like I've been doing this all my life. So it's a good fit for us. Man, that's so cool. I think you're right. You do pastor and shepherd through songs. And we got a chance to catch up in DC, where you were at the Museum of the Bible, and you were leading for the 90s worship night. And it was just such a cool night to relive some of those songs and be in your world for a little bit. But I mean, you could tell from just watching how you lead worship, that you do have a shepherd's heart. Talk to us about that. Like what does it mean to lead worship and now lead a church with a shepherd's heart? What is that to you, Jeff? Yeah, yeah. Well, I'll tell you what, Curtis, I just appreciate that you're using that term. Yeah. Because the term shepherd is not used too often. It's definitely one that is at the top of my list. I'm not like a huge fan of kind of like the rock star pastor, you know, lone ranger, kind of if he leaves the church, then the church falls apart kind of thing, you know. I'm a huge fan of New Testament Christianity, which means that we're a priesthood of all,

4:05you know, everybody is in the priesthood, right? Everybody is a part of the kingdom of heaven. So it's not just the people on the platform they're hearing from God, but it's the people, it's everybody, anybody who's a believer, that we're raising the bar. I mean, wow. You say we're unlowering the bar for what the biblical standard is, you know, is that everybody would be a part of leading being an example for the next generation, all that stuff, moving in the gifts of the spirit, you know. I think we've kind of moved into this performance and this not true of every church or anything, but a lot of times more spectator oriented church services, we come to be entertained. We come to, I like to think about it like a track meet. We come and we watch the professionals run around the track or like, oh, good job, pastor, good job, worship team. Wow, you guys are blowing my mind, you know. And I'm like, I'm the worship pastor or the pastor that's gonna go up into the bleachers, give somebody a pair of shoes and say, hey, come round with us, you know what I'm saying?

5:05Wow. So to me, and here's the other thing about that shepherd analogy for me is when I think about sheep, and in front of us, you know, I'm not a farmer, I'm not a literal shepherd, but when I feel like the Holy Spirit revealed this to me a few years ago, I think sometimes we have it wrong with the job of the pastor. And what I mean by that is when you think about a shepherd, their number one job, even though Jesus talking to Peter and he said, do you love me feed my sheep? But think about the job of a shepherd. Their number one job is not actually to feed the sheep, but to guide them to new pastures. Wow, that's really good. Which, you know, of course, if you got orphan sheep or you got sick sheep, then of course you have to bring out the bottle, you're gonna feed them, but not for long. You're gonna do everything you can to try to get them up on their own, grazing and feeding on their own. So that's my job is not to coddle the sheep, but to inspire them to push.

6:06Hey, man, you guys should take a look at this word over here. Look at this, and you guys go study it and see what it's like. You know, most people are just eating regurgitated word from their past or man. He's eating it, chewing it up, spitting it out, spoon feeding. And I know I'm going like deep past year, but you know, so my job, and according to Ephesians 4, 11, and 12, the job of the fivefold, right? You know, job of the fivefold is not to do the work of the ministry, but to equip the body or to equip the saints to do the work of the ministry. We've long gravitated to this idea that, hey, you know, we know the congregations not gonna share their faith and they're not gonna, you know, whatever. So if you guys just bring your friends to church, then a spiritual leaders will get them saved. And that's the low bar, you know. And so we're saying no. Yet, I mean, yes, bring your friends to church, yes.

7:08We'll share the gospel, but man, don't you share the gospel with the, why don't you go to your workplace and to the grocery store and interact, anyways, you know, you get it. So that's kind of my heart here. And people are a little bit like, hey, you know, they're kind of like, I don't know about this, Patrick Jeff, where you should just come in to church and, and pain are tied so we can tell, it's almost like they hired the pastor to go here from God. And you come back and tell us what he said. It is Moses back in the day, right? Yeah. Moses went up on the mountain and, and, and that day that, you know, Moses can concentrate yourself, come, the Lord wants to speak to you. But they said, no, we don't want him to speak to us. We might die, but that was a lie. Cause God didn't say I'll kill, it'll kill you if you listen to my voice. So if you step up on the mountain, then yeah, you'll die. But they refused to, they said, Moses, you talk to God for us and come back and tell us what he said. And I think we're still living in some of that Old Testament theology.

8:11Wow, man. Now I heard a pastor went say that a shepherd smells like a sheep. And, you know, I think one of the cool thing is is like, you know, not everybody is high relational. Not everybody is, you know, I'm going to go to your house and do a small group with you. You know, on the flip side of that, I was recently talking to a pastor of a very high profile church. And he said, you know, all I do right now is create content. And I hate it. Right. I wish I could go back and just shepherd and just meet with people and sit. And so let me ask you this, like, are you kind of more bent towards that, like, just relational capacity? Like you just love sitting down. Hey, I want to get some coffees on the books this week or is it kind of more, like, I want to get the most bang for my buck when it comes to time. And yeah, I mean, I don't even know, like, schedule was what that looks like. Yeah. Well, you know, of course, I'm in a church. We're about 270, 280 numbers of people, you know, and I do pay attention to numbers, but I'm more interested in spiritual growth. People forget that there's a, like, when we talk about church growth,

9:14we really didn't think about spiritual growth first. And then I believe that you pour spiritually in people that we will see the numerical growth happen. But, um, so when it comes to my schedule, you know, and I get it, things change the bigger your church gets. But here's the thing, to me, if you are not relationally wired, you have no business being in charge of a church. You might be a teacher, you might be a speaker, but you have no business because here's the thing. Even if my, even if our church goes to 3,000, you know, I can't meet with everybody, right? Right. I sure better be meeting for coffee with my leaders. I sure better be having those relationships with my high level, volunteer leaders and all that stuff and do it. So that never changes. It never goes away if all you're doing and sorry, but if all you're doing is creating content, that's your fault. You know, you bought into the library, you're here to pass through a church, and you're here to pass through a community more than you are to get Facebook and Instagram and TikTok and all. And I still do a little bit of that.

10:15You know, we do some stuff like that. But you're right. Like I actually, it's so weird, Curtis, because again, this is even though I feel like I've been pastoring and I have a pastor's heart, shepherd's heart, as first time I'm doing this. So man, I remember the first hospital visit. I mean, right? Like some people are like, oh, I don't want to go to the hospital. And I mean, I actually think it's an incredible honor to go and visit somebody at the hospital and pray for them and their family in their greatest time of need. I mean, these people may be dying. They may be extremely sick. And you know how things are tough when you feel sick and things are you're in the hospital. You don't know what's going to happen. Man, for your pastor to be able to come in and just say, bro, I'm with you. I'm going to take your hand. I'm going to pray for you. We're going to hear, say, we bleed for miracles. And we're going to see you come out of this. You know, I mean, I love it. They pay me to go and minister to people and love on people. Now, at the same time, you may have also heard the idea

11:15that she bites. And that's true as well. Yeah, yeah. That's true as well. Nobody here at my church. Nobody at my church might. Only other churches, but I mean, that means that I think what that means is that she and they should. They challenge things. They're like, hey, what's going on here? Why does change? What's, you know, and I have a responsibility of teaching and leading them and saying, look, this is what we're going by. We're not going by what I say. We're not going by what the other pastor said before me. I unless it lines up with this, you know? So we're going to go by this and I'm a teacher. So I like to bring people along. There's, I'll tell you, we've been here for six months. We already had a couple of families like, you know, I think this is die relief for us. And it broke my heart, you know what I mean? I don't want anybody to leave. I don't, but I tell you, there's the very comment that one of the families said, you know what? Because he said this, we're going to step away.

12:15Another family said, because of you said that, we're making this our home church. Wow, there you go. So, you know, I mean, and I'm not, you know, I think Jesus obviously, Jesus was controversial. Curtis, I can say, I have not yet preached, eat my flesh or drink my blood. So I feel like I'm doing pretty good, you know? You know, yeah. Well, I'll tell you what, this is what I've learned. And you know this, I was a lead pastor for five years in Nashville, Tennessee. And so that was the season that not very easy to be in that role. I think it's, I saw something, I think it was in leadership pain by Sam Chan, where he was talking about how a lead pastor of a church is listed in the top five hardest jobs in America. And this was pre COVID, this was pre and all of the crazy, you know, just cultural things. It's got to be up there, man. But, but you know, there is something about like, when people come and they say, well, you know, I want to be a part of this church, but we need to start doing this. We need to start doing that.

13:16And it's like, hey, those are great things for you to step into. And then they're like, you know, I left my last church this and that. And it's basically like, look, I promise you one thing. If you're looking for a reason to leave, you'll find it here. You know, this is, this church stop being perfect. The moment you stepped into it and the moment I stepped into it, there's no such thing as a perfect church according to what people are looking for. But I do think there's something to wear. You're going to find a tribe of people that will buy into the vision that will like, whatever your corner in the kingdom is, like God will give you the people to do that. And I just learned, you know, through faith that like, man, when you lose somebody in your church that you're just like, no, not them. God immediately has somebody else in mind to step in to fill those shoes. And, you know, God's greatest commodity is people. And he's got your back, man. I do have to ask you this, though, you know, having been in that worship world for so long is there, are you still leading worship on a Sunday?

14:17Do you do it every now and then? Do you jump up there with the preacher's mic and be like, no, I'm singing backgrounds on this song? Like, how does that work, Jeff? Cause you can't take the worship leader out of the pastor, man. Yeah, I honestly think Curtis is one of our greatest strengths. And I mean, you know, I've seen, I've seen worship pastors start churches because they were disgruntled and that never works. No, it has to be God. And so I promised I would never start a church or go be a pastor because I was upset with lead pastors. I trust me. I've traveled the world. And I've seen so many churches. There's so many lead pastors. I've learned so many amazing things from some great lead pastors. I've also learned a lot of things not to do from some lead pastors that are controlling and resisting the spirit and all that stuff. But here's a thing Curtis, a couple of things practically. One is, for me, anybody who is a healthy pastor

15:20that has been a worship pastor in the past, man, I think they're a great help to their church because I truly believe, you know this, the true worship pastor of every church is the lead pastor. Cause he sets the ceiling and he, it doesn't matter what the worship pastor does, but nobody's going past this ceiling that the lead pastor sets the worship. So there's 10% of the people that will, of course, they'll always do whatever they want. But 90% of people are gonna be under the passion level and the freedom level of the lead pastor when it comes to musical worship. And for me, I don't see the word as the main point of the service in the sense that a lot of people are like, oh, thank you for plowing the ground with the worship. So without we can hear the word of God. You know, if you ask me which one of those two things is gonna disappear when we get to heaven, the prety of the word or the worship of the key, which one's gonna disappear?

16:20Now, that doesn't diminish the word, right? That doesn't diminish the word. The reason we won't need the prety of the word is cause we'll have the person of the word standing right there. We won't need any further revelation, right? So the point of the word is to create worshipers. Now, that doesn't mean singers only, right? Worshipers, followers of Christ, passionate, good fathers, good mothers, good husbands, wives, all that stuff. So I am intensely, now I have my own time with the Lord and I've danced and I've shouted and I, so I don't bring anything to the service that I don't do in my private time with God. So, but I've worshiped expressively down front. Wow. You asked me if I get involved in the worshipment. We've got a really good worship pastor. That's cool. And, you know, he's getting used to, cause he was there for the last five years and the church has changed a lot. So he's kinda getting used to my MO and me going, okay, let's add a little more spontaneous. Let's go a little longer.

17:21You know, you used to three songs and exactly like the tracks and all that stuff and I'm like, let's expand. Let's listen to the Holy Spirit. So, about 96% of the time, I'm not involved in the worship at all. I'm just powering. I'm cheering on my guy, going, dude, you're awesome. Keep going, hey, work on this, hey, change this and stuff. Now, when we have our altar times and stuff like that, sometimes I'll leave on my pastor mic, you know, my little biggie and I'll sing quietly, sing some harmonies. I have only led on a Sunday morning. No, no, it was either Sunday morning, it was Christ's eat. Oh. Our worship pastor got sick, his voice was trashed. I'm like, you know what, I'll step in and I'll do it. And people were, it was kind of fun. People were like, oh my God, you know, one of you would leave it in worship, you know. Which is cool, you know, but I have done a little bit on Wednesday nights because my worship pastor

18:21will help out with the youth worship and I really want that youth worship to be strong. Yeah. We had some men's Bible studies and men's Bible studies last fall until I would lead a song for about 15, 20 minutes for the men. And you know, and I'm trying to, trying to stir up the heart of worship in our men, you know what I'm saying? Like, manly, like, let's go after God. Let's not hold that with shout. Let's, you know, and so we're trying to develop that culture. So, but I feel really good about being in the role that God's called me to be in. I don't need to, and I think that's one of the reasons I realized that I've always been pastorate is because if I had to do the worship to feel good about myself and to have my identity stroked. Wow. Then I don't know that I, but that's what gives me peace because I know, man, I actually don't have this, now I love doing it still. You know, I still travel a little bit and lead worship. I'd love worship for youth conferences fall, you know?

19:21Nice. Nice. Oh man, leading worship, but the North Dakota youth convention, you know? Wow. How to blast, you know? But so I think it's important for me, in fact, I'll tell you one more thing about that. There's a lady in our church who is very passionate, worshipper and expressive. She actually helps with our worship transitions sometimes. So after the worship, so come up and pray and stir things and maybe we'll go back into the chorus or whatever, you know? She just told me Wednesday night, she's like, Pastor Jeff, I am not used to having somebody who can dance as much as I do and who can worship, like, you know, I was like, all right, well, you know? Welcome to your new pastor, you know? She's like, I love it, it's so great, you know? So, you know, I just, I feel like I've worked out a lot of just freedom in my own time with the Lord. So it becomes authentic and it's not me trying to show people that I'm this or that or whatever,

20:21but I just, I, I'm like, man, I want to be free in my expression to God. I didn't grow up like that. Wow. I don't know if you know, but I mean, like I grew up in a very conservative church. We did two hymns, standing up, two down, stances one, two and four. I mean, it was, no, there was no dancing, there's no clapping. We thought if somebody raised their hand, they had a question, you know? Hey, nice. That's amazing, man. Well, listen, I got to ask you this because like, I think, you know, the ability to recognize what season you're in and what season God's calling you to is a huge, it's huge. Just when you get to that place in life, how did you recognize that, hey, I think this opportunity to be a lead pastor is definitely the next step that God has for me and to leave what was familiar to step into the unknown because that's a big deal. Yeah, no, you're 100% right and I'll give you one word that I'll explain. Pain, pain, I love it, I love it.

21:24You know, you're like, oh, man, you're just going from Nashville to professor to pastor that's just glory to glory, right? Well, I'll tell you this, man, and I love my north central piece. It was there for 14 years, but our school has struggled some in downtown Minneapolis. Wow. Looking for a simple way to stay rooted in God's word every day, the Daily Bible Devotion App by Salem Media gives you morning and evening devotionals designed to encourage, inspire, and keep you connected with scripture. Plus, you'll enjoy Daily Bible trivia and humor, a fun way to learn and share a smile while growing in your face. Get the Daily Bible Devotion App for free on both iOS and Android. Start and end your day with God's word. Search for the Daily Bible Devotion App in the App Store or Google Play Store and download it today. And our numbers, and I really believe that there's going to be a resurgence here. So, but our numbers have gone down a lot over the last 10 years.

22:26More than cut in half. Wow. And so there's a, there can't point where they had to lay off some people. And we, I was a part of a group of 10 faculty that had to be laid off. And boy, that's fine, right? You're like, what? I mean, they're laying off Jeff D.O. Like, who do they think? No, they know who I am. No, I'm just kidding. But you know what I mean? It's a hard season. So, and there was kind of a long rant to the point where we thought, well, maybe this is going to happen. And then when the announcement was made, I remember my son, who was a student at North Central at the time, who came to me and said, Dad, this isn't fair. And he kind of listened about the things. And I just felt the Hoy Spirit speaks to me and say, hey, when it's not fair, it's me. Oh. I've got like the Hoy Spirit said, I put your name on that list. The board was sitting in there going, you know, you can just imagine this meeting. Okay, guys, we got to make cuts or this boat's going down. So, they're going through different names.

23:26Should we cut this first? Should we cut this? And they get to my name, right? And they're like, what about Jeff D.O.? And Hoy Spirit's like, do it, do it. Wow. Wow. I'm just like, I'm like, thanks a lot, Lord. Thanks, I appreciate that. Oh, my. Jeff, Jeff, I got something else for you. I need you right now. I need you to get off this boat. I got something else that I have for you that has been stirring in your soul and in my heart for years. You may not realize it right now. So, about two months later, I was in the process of getting my, some as a God, credentials. Okay. Which was something I had never done with I should have done. But at this point, I'm like, okay, I need to prepare because it feels like something stirring. And even at that point, I did not know. I kind of assumed, I mean, I had a good job lined up as a potential professor at another university. There's worship pastor jobs, big churches, there's all kinds of possibilities. But none of that was the thing. And so our former superintendent came to me

24:30and had to credential interviews. He said, Jeff, would you ever consider being a lead pastor? Why? And it was like the sky opened up in that moment. I was like, I literally said to him, yes, I would. But I think it's the hardest job ever. And he goes, nah, you could do it. I'm like, oh, wake up. And so from that point, man, I couldn't get it out of my heart. Like it was like, that's the key. I think this is it. I think this is what God wants. Now, did it happen right away? No. Did I have to go through four or five different interviews and get rejected? And then it also turned down some possibilities? Yeah. And was I a little nervous? Like, how's this going to work? Am I going to be able to pay my bills? Where's it going to be? And then when I got the text message that I could make from a friend of mine about this opportunity, the last thing I want,

25:31I mean, I got four kids. And so I got a 15 year old, I got a 13 year old, boy and a girl, and I got two older ones graduated from North Central and married. And then one's finishing up at North Central. So that means we may have to leave the oldest two kids in Minnesota. So man, that's tough to process that and pray through that. It's still one of the hardest parts about being here in Texas. But we filled God's hand on this. Man, he has just breathed on us. And I was going to say this earlier, I think this is so key. Because if it's true, this whole thing, somebody's going like, how hard can it be to be a pastor? We're like, trust me. But if it's true, then it's top five hardest jobs, I would say my response to that is, man, I better lean into the spirit of God. And that's what I do. I mean, there's two of three sponsors. You can go, I mean, I'm going to manhandle this or I don't know what I'm doing that you freak out.

26:33But I'm not going to do either one of those. I'm just going to go, God help. God help. I know that you call me to this. And I know that your power lives in me. I don't know what I'm doing at times. But at the same time, I do know what I'm doing because you put it in my heart. So I just lean into the spirit. And I mean, I was crying out to him this morning in my time at the border of my Lord. There's people, a couple of families leaving the church, help me understand, help me to pastor a few, there's more families coming to the church too. So all that stuff just requires that I lean the harder the job, the harder the assignment, I got to lean that much harder on the spirit of God. Man, I love what you said when it's not fair, it's me, Holy Spirit. You know, it's like that needs to be on a t-shirt Jeff because I think so many of us have this complex of like whenever things don't go according to our plan, well, that can't be God, you know, because God always gets in line with my plan, right? And I think the funniest thing is God often will call us into uncomfortable places because it's in those places

27:36where we have to be dependent on Him. And, you know, I think you're in that season right now where it's like just kind of incredible to hear some of the stories and the ministry that you're doing right now. Now, do you still get to, I mean, you just led worship for a youth conference? How often is that happening where you're kind of going out and doing some more travel, speaking and leading these days? You know, I mean, I did a ton of it over the last seven or eight years. Right now, I'm being very judicious about what I'm doing and where I'm going because I don't wanna be gone a lot here. I do think it's healthy for me to travel some and to get out and get perspective and some guests come and speak. A lot of the events that I can do though would be like kind of Thursday Friday or Friday Saturday all on Sunday, there's certainly opportunities to do Sundays as well. So I do enjoy doing that. I think there's gonna be more of a season for two or three years

28:38just as we kind of set the foundation for this church. I'm gonna do a little less of that. There's still, you know, I've written two books, and a third, a children's book. There's a couple more books in me that I feel like are gonna come over the next two or three years. And I think some of that is gonna again stir up travel. But for me, this other than if God just changes things, all I can see right now is He's called us to this right now to put our 100% focus in this church, you know. He might change it. It might be 20 years, it might be 20 days. I don't know or anything in between. But right now, here's the thing I've always said. I just encourage everybody who's listening in this. I've always said this. I said, Lord, I'm gonna plant so deeply, whether it's marriage, whether it's, well, and God doesn't call us to leave marriage, but whether it's a job, whether it's a city, whether it's just anything, I'm gonna plant so deeply in what I'm doing.

29:39Put my roots down, so deep that nobody can uproot me except God. So God's the only one that not pain, not circumstance, not struggles, it has to be God who's gonna uproot me. I'm gonna be faithful, I'm gonna stick to it, I'm not gonna give up, I'm not gonna quit. So right now, I did the same thing in Minneapolis, you know, we uprooted from Nashville, we planted, and I said, Lord, take you uproot me. So he clearly uprooted me, he kicked me out. And so now we're planting here, and we're planting as deep as we can with the fact that nobody else is gonna be able to tell us unless God says we're done here. Wow, that's so interesting because we do live in a day and age where I feel like so many people in ministry are like, when the going gets tough, I get going, you know, it's like, that's right. And I think you're right, like, you know, I had a pastor friend once tell me, like, people cannot bloom unless they're rooted. And if you're always just going wherever the wind blows,

30:39the roots can't get down deep, you know, and at the first warning of, you know, rough waters, if you're out of there, you're not gonna be able to see the fruit on the other side of that. Talk to us a little bit about that because there's something there, Jeff, you know, and that faithfulness season and stand rooted. Yes, I think so. I think you're right. Whether it is marriage or a job or a church, those things, we just kind of keep up, but whatever we, you know, just, oh, if this didn't work out, but man, God does not like that. So if you find yourself doing that, you are not moving in the character of God. Like God is, that doesn't mean that God doesn't change seasons. There are plenty of examples in the Bible where God moves something from there to there. Right. But I guarantee you, there's not too many examples where they're like, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, you know, it's more like, he's calling us to plant somewhere and be faithful. And so we just cannot find ourselves jumping shit, whether it be your church, whether it be certainly

31:40not your marriage, whether it be your relationship with God, whether it be your job. Just because, as you said, just as things get difficult, I'm a man of stuff is so, it's so basic, but we miss it. The whole point of this thing is there is going to, there are going to be trials. There are going to be difficulties. And if you jump ship every time God's trying to bring trials or allow things to come in your life, he's trying to grow you. Wow. And you, I mean, you know, we got to cliche, you can't, you can't grow on the mountain top because nothing grows on the mountain. You know, I'm from Colorado. I know about the tree line is 11,000 feet. Nothing but a little bit of tough of weeds, a little grasses grows above 11,000 feet. So nothing grows on the mountain top, you grow in the valley. It's cliche, but it's true. That's where the real growth happens. And it doesn't just mean you got to have a difficult situation to grow, it's that you're giving difficult situations so that you can see with the power of the Holy Spirit

32:42that you can come out on the other side, victorious and overcome. He's not trying to make our life hard, but if he didn't give us situations that require faith, we would never, we would never grow in our faith, right? You have to have a situation that requires another level of faith in order to grow in your faith. So I, I feel like people jump ship and they miss the growth opportunity. They miss the lesson, I've learned so many things through hard times, man. Learn some, most of what I've learned is through hard times. You know why? Because what happens in hard times? You get on your knees. Wow. What happens in the difficult, you cry out to God. And then that was the thing from the beginning, right? Yeah. So I just encourage people, now obviously there are situations that call you to leave. Hey, if you're in abusive marriage, okay, well that, no. I mean, God's not calling you to stay. Now, who knows, he can still bring healing, but you gotta get out to get that healing, right?

33:45So there's some exceptions to that rule. So don't hear me saying that wrong, but man, guys, we gotta stay true, let God do the work. I'll say one last thing about this. You missed that word comfortable. I have taught worship leaders this for years. And I would say now I think anybody who's a leader, I said, please, don't ever use that word. Wow. And you used it in a good way. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No, no, no. Don't ever use that word comfortable from the platform. Don't ever tell somebody, hey, if you feel comfortable, lift your hands. Because you might as well say, if you feel comfortable, love your enemies. If you feel comfortable, carry your cross. If you feel, I mean, it's not like in the kingdom, that's comfortable. If it's convenient. Yeah. I mean, dude, the only thing that God and the Holy Spirit's teaching me this stuff, right? So he's like, Jeff, the only place that I want you to use that word is I want you to become comfortable

34:48in the uncomfortable. Wow. Welcome to it, man. Like the better you can understand how to be comfortable in the uncomfortable, the more you're going to thrive in what God's called you do. Because it's always going to be a tax in the enemy. Yeah, I read a book, I read a book called, From Brother Young, called The Heavenly Man. Heavenly Man, Heavenly Man, one of my favorites. So good. Bro, my wife and I always, there's a lot of things I learned from that, but this guy's persecuted as a Christian in China. I mean, tortured. I mean, just unbelievable pain, struggle for years. Just finally escapes and gets to the United States and is disheartened as he should be with the American Church. He's like, what do y'all do it over here? Play in, you know, play a church? And one of his comments was, you know, it feels like everybody in the American Church were so driven to get back to comfort. He's like, you know, what if he changed your prayer language

35:51from God, lighten the burden, lift the load to God, strengthen my back. Wow. Like, that's a different prayer, right? Man, that's so good. And not that we shouldn't pray for healing and we shouldn't ask God to help us with the load. But what if instead of take it away from me, Lord, a strength in me, help me stand up in the struggle and let me realize that you have made me strong. You have given me strength in my weakness. Man, I think you're dead on because in the American Church we are way too obsessed with safety and comfort and convenience and what part of carry your cross speaks to any of that, you know, it's like, and so if we're following after Jesus, we need to expect the unexpected, we need to get comfortable in the uncomfortable and I think you did on it. I love what you said about safety. A lot of people are like, well, is it safe for us to go on the mission's trip?

36:51Well, no. I mean, it's not safe to live in certain cities in America right now either. I mean, but God has, he hasn't called us to safety. Now, will he protect us? Will he take care of us? Absolutely, but isn't it called us to safety? Like, Jesus didn't live a safe life, you know? It's like, so we're like, oh, if it's not safe then we shouldn't go. No, trust the Lord. So that's what builds trust, no doubt about it. I've got to ask you this, like, what are you doing right now? Are you songwriting? Are you recording any albums right now when on the music side? Because let's not kid ourselves. You got the gift. You've had some great songs. And I mean, getting into CU lead worship again at 90s worship night. I was like, yeah, he hadn't lost the step, man. So I just wanted to ask you, like, you know, is there still music projects in you being burst now? Or is it kind of like, you know, hey, that season we've hit pausing that for right now? Tell us about that, Jeff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what's funny is what I'm doing right now

37:53is I'm remodeling our church. Oh, snap. You are, it's my wife. You got the chip and Joanna Gaines bug, man. We seriously, we're down there in Texas. We literally just repainted stuff up this and re-did all the baseboards, re-did the flooring. I mean, I'm literally in there in my youth fascist office working on the flooring. And that's why I was late, call it in. But so as far as the song thing, you know, I did, as you mentioned, the 90s worship thing has been a little thing to keep me going. North Century University recording and riding with our students, we put out a lot of music. That really scratched that itch for me as well. I don't know if you remember this, but when you visited North Century years ago, and you actually started a thing in us, you talked about creative Fridays. Creative Friday, yep. You guys used to do it your church. We started doing creative Fridays at university so that we could do songwriters.

38:55So I would call any musicians any songwriters, anybody want to come together every Friday, you would meet for two or three hours in the afternoon and write song. So thank you for that. So all that stuff, you know, 90s worship, all who are thirsty, kind of remaking that song. And then I released a song this last summer called, there's a fire that I wrote, it's original song from me a worship song. So people can check that out, there's a fire. I am still writing, but right now, I think there is a kind of a pause. I'm writing more sermons and more books than I am writing music. It's still in there, like you can't take it out of me. There are days where I'll sit down, just play the piano and sing out and stuff like that. I still have all my notes on my phone. I have my voice memos. And so I occasionally do some of that stuff and there's hundreds of them in there, in some point. I think at some point, I will do another album. It would just have to be God and His timing

39:57and the resources and time and all that stuff. I do think there would be another season for another album, we'll see, we'll see. I hope so, but I am focused on writing books and sermons. I will share two that I just put out. Let's go. Kids book, Rollie Paulie and the Quincy Central Quest. I'll allow. I finished a second book of this as well. It'll come out next year. So there's that kind of stuff going on and wrote the two worship books too and stuff. So there's creativity in me. Right now, it's mostly being funneled to the sermons and the messages and books and stuff, but that'd be more music coming out. That's awesome, man. Now, do you get to kind of dictate where the sermon series are going and you guys are putting all that together? And I've got to ask, are you doing worship series or are you teaching on worship a lot? You know, so I had my plan for the whole year, right?

40:57So I've kind of ironed out. I like doing like series of like three to five sermons, messages, weeks. Yeah. And you wouldn't be surprised by this. So I didn't start with worship. I started with relationship, which they hand in hand, but also different because it wasn't about, I didn't start out with the seven Hebrew words for praise. Okay. I didn't start out with teaching on lifting your hands or shouting or any of that stuff. Now, I did do that at the beginning of January. So five months in, it took me five months. Now, I didn't do a worship series. I still haven't actually done a worship series. I did some little one-off things and stuff. But I started with relationship with God. This spring, what we're doing, I did a whole, my January has been freedom. So the series is just freedom. So, freedom to hear the voice of God,

41:58freedom to obey, and I did freedom to worship. Wow. Free-ly. Yeah. And so I did a little one-off there on worship. But it was more about freedom and relationship than it was about music. Yeah. And then we're about to move into a series called God Who, which is really a study on God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit, and helping us understand that they have the same goal but they have different roles. Wow. I think a lot of times in this world that we live in, and please hear me right when I'm saying this, I feel like sometimes we might overemphasize Jesus or we might overemphasize the Holy Spirit depending on our, and I don't really think you can overemphasize Jesus or the Holy Spirit, but maybe under-emphasize the Father. Wow. And man, there's some teaching that God's put in my heart, some Bible verses that I had never seen before about the supremacy of God that blow your mind.

43:00So not this week, but next week, I'm going to be teaching on God the Father and trying to help people understand that the Spirit of God and Jesus, they have one goal, and that's to get us to the Father. John 146, Jesus said, I am the way, the truth of life, and He said, no one comes to the Father, which is the goal of life, except through me. So anyways, talk about some of that stuff, and then I'm going to do a series on suffering as we approach resurrection Sunday, and leading up to then the refining process that God allows us to go through suffering, like refined like silver, and counted all joy that James won, you know, how ridiculous is it that we should be excited about trials that are coming our way and stuff. So those are some of the things we're focused on. Dude, that's awesome. Well, I can remember when I was in that season of lead pastoring, falling in love with the Bible over and over again, every week I got to preach,

44:00I was reconvenced of the gospel. I was reconvenced that Jesus is the way the truth in life. And, you know, there's just a different lens that you start to look at everything through. You look at, you know, as a worship pastor in my time in DC before lead pastoring, and of course, now I'm worship pastoring again, but, you know, it was like everything was about music. Everything was about the worship team, and what are we doing? But when you step into that lead pastoral, you're like, no, kids, kids, family ministry matters, greeters matter, parking lot matters, is the coffee good or does it suck? That matters. Everything environment matters. And I think you just get this massive perspective on all things church, all things ministry, and God does a work in your heart to just unroot anything that may have been unhealthy, like idealistic towards music and worship in another self. And I'm excited for you, man. I can't wait to hear the books that come out of this and what God does next in your season, man. So, Jeff, bro, always good to catch up with you, man. Thanks for taking a walk with us today.

45:01Absolutely. Thank you, Curtis. It's so good to see you again. Just to connect again. I appreciate you. I appreciate the walk. I appreciate all that you're doing, and hopefully this impacts a lot of people. Encourages a lot of people out there. I know it will. So, we're going to put some links to Jeff's books, and that new song, there's a fire. I'm going to go check it out as soon as I hang up here, because I love the title, man. That's great, dude. Thank you. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Hey, you've been listening to the walk, a podcast that dives into our journey with Jesus, one story, one step at a time. This episode has been brought to you by Planning Center. Whether you're organizing Sunday services or scheduling volunteers, Planning Center gives you the tools to build a healthy, connected worship ministry. Make sure you go and check them out at planningcenter.com. Planning Center, where ministry flows better together. The love of God is immeasurable.

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