The Trap of Unforgiveness

0:00Welcome to the funny kind with Erica Gummany bringing heart humor and hope to every day life Laughter and love really do make a difference and Erica's here to prove it Part deep dive part stand up for the soul this show blends humor heart and real talk to help you stop believing the lies that hold you back Whether she's flying solo or chatting with guests Erica brings her signature mix of authenticity went and wisdom reminding you that growth doesn't have to be so serious So pull up a chair exhale and get ready to laugh reflect and reconnect with the extraordinary human you already are Because this is the funny kind where humor meets healing and inspiration meets action You Hello everyone Great to be with you today. I am really excited to have um back with us

1:01Our wonderful friend Jonathan Missyrian um who is a longtime friend of ours our families and just a precious human being in this world You may have listened to our discussion a while back called faith in action That was a wonderful Support for me to figure out how we can um be light in the world and Jonathan had some really great insights in that conversation. So I'll share that link um with you As well, but this discussion is going to be really interesting because if you listened or watched The last episode it was me and my friend Ali being silly and talking about gifts and all that and now we're getting into the light and breezy conversation of unforgiveness So um Jonathan. Thank you for being with us to dive into another deep talk Love it glad to be here. Love you. Love the show. Love your book Erica. Oh, thanks Yeah, so last time I made the image for our podcast episode and it was a cartoon of the two of us and it was kind of fun

2:05but this Discussion today just felt a little bit Uncartoonie. So I decided to just use our regular pictures. So You know, we're just going to be a little serious today and that's okay So uh Jonathan mentioned um the book journey from the ashes um which is a wonderful book that um Came to life uh late last year in 2025 and is making its way um to hearts to help people unlearn um the lies that have been holding them back and Each month has a theme in the book. It's a daily devotional. So um it's perfect for people like me with the World's shortest attention span With just a few paragraphs a day um to reflect on and think about So um Every month has a theme and here in March is the theme of forgiveness And we're going to talk about that today and we titled today's discussion the trap of unforgiveness And I'll go into a little bit of why but um I have the pleasure of being with a group of women called the journey circle

3:11And we started meeting this year in January and we're reading the devotional together And meeting throughout the year and it's really awesome. Okay, really great group of 25 women All trying to shed stuff that is no longer serving them. It's really wonderful And I'd like to share with you a little exercise that we started with and um Jonathan and I talked a little bit about it and he's gonna Kind of help me unpack What What happens when you hold on to this unforgiveness? So I gave everybody a box of rocks if you will okay Um, and it little bricks that we put little rocks in like this like big rocks look at my fancy ring hmm Um big rocks and little rocks. Okay, they kind of represent Things that we are holding Unforgiveness for for ourselves or for others So we kind of went through this like I had on this long table. I had all these rocks laid out on paper plates Not and and you walked by and picked them up and put them in your box

4:15And then we're caring with them all month caring them with us all month long And just talking about like the weight of unforgiveness And so I started out and used myself as an example and kind of went back to the as early as I could think of when You know some of those early wounds happened to you and you start to kind of get hurt and and Hold on to these stories Of wounds that have happened to you and not that there are stories, but things happen to us and I used some examples for my childhood And just talked about and I cried and I just talked about how you feel when someone hurts you and you're like Oh my gosh, I hate them. How could they do this to me? This is awful You know, and you remember it and it's just raw and you're like right back there and you're so justified in it And you're like yeah bunch of jerks. Yeah, right So then you put it in your brick and then you keep going or your box and you keep going and then Another person starts to hurt you and you throw them in with it and you keep going and keep going

5:18And then you start doing stuff and you're like now you're now you blame yourself because you begin to act in a way At least in my situation where you act in a way that's like All that hurt starts to kind of spoil how you see the world Outside you and you start to allow things to happen to you That you may not have if you hadn't have gone through some of those experiences if I make any sense So I kind of went through this hole and forgiveness thing had this big box of rocks heavy burden And then kind of talked about how I like to push things down And forget about them and say it's fine. It's fine. It's fine I'm fine. It's over whatever But they kind of tend to those things tend to seep out of us So I went back to the original part of the table where I started and kind of started taking these rocks out and realizing How I might be able to or thinking about how I might be able to look at these people a little bit differently

6:21And then I started to cry and have more compassion for people So that's kind of what's the was the Is the symbolic thing that I'm doing with this group for March and I just thought it was a really powerful Thing to think about unforgiveness being a weight we carry So with that enough babbling on my part. So Jonathan after I said all that what What do you see about the weight of unforgiveness Even deserved if that makes sense That's a great question Erica because here's the reality I think the reality is all of us have been hurt To varying degrees right? I'm not saying that all those hurts are the same But all of us have been hurt on some level and like if we're really honest probably all of us also hurt somebody else And we'll obviously easily focus on the first part of that statement and kind of minimize the second part to some degree

7:23But What I want to do is I think it's important for us to process like the reality when we have been hurt Especially by a parent or a spouse or a loved one or someone that you know, we're really close to I mean these feelings of anger and resentment and rage and justice and vengeance. That's normal That's I think that's all part of the being created in the image of God These are the emotions that God has given us and those things are are normal So I just want to validate that first of all. I think the challenge where you're trying to open up the door is at what point are Those Normal feelings Cross the line into that rock that's weighing us down and how do we know You know the difference between hey, we're just upset not just but we're upset because of what that other person has done And now it's crossed the line into unforgiveness and so I have some thoughts for us and You know and just some easy points that we can talk through To the degree that you want to but I love that image of the rocks that we carry

8:26Sometimes we enjoy carrying those rocks that we can be really honest because it empowers us especially when we've been on the receiving end of Violence or abuse this gives us some agency to give us some ownership sometimes And while that can be healthy on a very very short-term level long-term. It's unhealthy for us It's unhealthy for our families. It's unhealthy for our desire to move forward So one of the things that really hit me when it comes time to talking about unforgiveness is that unforgiveness really It imprisons us More than it does the person who did the offending to us like we're the ones That are trapped in a sense In our world of hey, we need justice and this person has to have you know these types of consequences and stuff like that And in some ways when we carry that spirit of unforgiveness We're the ones That are imprisoned by it. Yeah, it's

9:27I so I so feel that I still just to just to add on to that from a from a You know it for me like like forgiveness is easy when somebody stops hurting me You know like they're passed away or If we broke up or I'm not working there anymore or whatever But when somebody is actively injuring you You know That is really difficult and I had it we were but we went through a situation A couple years ago with someone and it was very difficult I'm a lover not a fighter You know, I'm not really great never really you know, not the best conflict management person. So Oh, it was just really really difficult and I was writing about this forgiveness stuff and I had this image of A trap like a foothold trap one of those silver ones that like has those you know Like blades on it that snaps down on somebody's leg and it's all gooey and gross and disgusting and steps coming out

10:32blah blah blah and I imagine myself sit might me sitting in this like abandoned like Deserted dusty dreary place. I'm a ground with this trap on me and I looked across and there's this person that I'm actively Dealing with and I see them in the trap and I'm like yeah That's right. You deserve it. Ha ha ha jerky face glaring at each other. Uh, you know, and I looked out and I'm like hold on I'm sitting here So that trap thing is so true and and it it feels so justified When it's somebody else, but boy when I want forgiveness I'm just like can you please take off this trap right away and Mm-hmm. I'm sorry and God's like oh, I forgive you and you're like great all forgotten. Thank you But oh hard to do with someone else That that trap

11:33Often is instant airing us versus, you know, penalizing the other person I think the other thought I have I curious to get your thoughts on this is Unforgiveness keeps the past alive. Oh my gosh Like when we refuse to release What happened then like it still controls us today? Does that make dude? Yeah, I you know um my sister my sister passed away a couple years ago and um We had you know, not a super great childhood and we used to sit together and relive it a lot and go over it and go over it and It's like It just it there is you get a high from it in a way like it's it's like some and and this book is called journey from the ashes When I was first writing it like ashes in this is represented to be the things done to you the things done by you

12:35In this pile of ashes, you know, and and it's your it's your work to get to move away from them But you could sit there and stare at them and it's it's like the ashes are alive like just after you dump a grill You know like it's still burning and It's still hot and it's smoking and I almost imagined that it's It there it's alive and it's calling to you and it's beckoning you and it's evil And it's like don't don't leave me stay. How could they? Oh, they're terrible. Oh, yeah, you should do that. Oh, it's like And then I feel like I don't want to do that anymore. I don't want to talk about it anymore. I'm sick of talking about it Yeah, I want to follow forward I think one of the other challenges is I think about unforgiveness and again these Using your illustration of those rocks that we carry around. I think one of those rocks that we can carry around

13:40That when we don't forgive it really changes almost like distorts our view of God Our view of others our view of ourselves. It's almost like we're putting on those glasses And then everything we see is through the lens of that bitterness maybe almost and like again Be justified Like where the victims were the ones that had maybe some parents or spouses or whatever it is bosses or things like that That's all legit But if we don't release it then that bitterness just shades our view of every significant relationship that we have in life Mm-hmm. And do you feel like For me anyways as I look back and I was able to all right, you know, I'll always be working on stuff you know until I take my last breath and I'll be like wait, I figured it out you know But I think about I lost my trap. What was I saying? What was I saying? I think about when

14:44And Other like because of those glasses that you talked about and I It's almost like when I'm attracted or magnetized to other people that may treat me similarly And I'm like yep, that feels right That feels right and I say one of them. I don't know if it's I don't know if I came I doubt I came up with it I probably stole it from somebody along the way, but we teach people how to treat us which is someone wise said And then it's like how low is your line? You know like what is your line? Because you're allowing it not to say that Of course I'm being sensitive that not always are you doing that but For me anyways, I started to really look at that and say I am the child of God This is not okay. I don't think you understand. This is not okay talking to myself So yeah, I think And and so forgiveness is like a trap a tricky trap

15:48Yeah Forgiveness does is that it frees us up then Seagod in the way that he truly is and the depth of his love for us and the way that he truly cares for us and we're able then to see others Probably a more holistic sort of way not just two-dimensional all evil All vile type of people. Yes, they are evil and there are some vileness but Most of the abuse or the difficult situations we go through life are also from real people who probably have had real trauma themselves who have not dealt with that I'm saying that to justify it Yeah, yeah, and it that that that has helped me a lot to be able to stop and to You know look at people how God might look at how I want God to look at me And I want him to say oh honey. I'm so sorry that happened of course that of course You know, I understand why you did that honey. It's okay It's all right and I took I want to talk to myself that sweetly

16:52But my voice goes much lower you know so when you when you Have experienced that kind of forgiveness and you have been able to allow God in I don't know what the opposite of distort is To clear to clarify With greater clarity. Yeah, on how you see other people. How has that changed you in the relationships with people That you've had You know give you a great example is for me it was my father who was a abusive Religious leader of use of husband Abuse of parent and after my parents divorced he became mentally ill criminally mental ill Needitis strange from the family and Was just recently I remember forgiving him 26 years ago and very clearly feeling that freedom But it wasn't until like just a few months ago when I was working with my spiritual director Who challenged me and said hey, what's something positive you can say about your father?

17:55And I just sat there and I I honestly couldn't And after the call I realized oh, man, I've got a lot of work to do that in an entire 60 something years of life like I I couldn't find one thing positive and I'm and that positive doesn't outweigh all those Negatives doesn't remove the hurt or make it make sense But it forces me to grow and mature in ways and maybe I didn't want to I'd rather stay in my unforgiveness and just see him as a two-dimensional all evil person Versus a fully-orbed human being that had difficult parents Himself who barely spoke the language and all sorts of troubles and trials and life like that. So I think a real life recent example on my side of things Yeah, I Go ahead I like

18:56Yeah, you got another rock I got you don't you only have one rock that's impressive. I feel like I have so many so many of my friends that did this They're like I don't think I'm gonna need another box for all my rocks I like I like what you said where 26 years ago you thought you had a taken care of it's like this is a process And so I like what you're saying that That's really good about being able to say something positive What are some other ways that you might know That you haven't fully forgiven somebody Just thinking yeah, I think Well, that's a great I mean, that's a great question I think one of the things is like just what is that natural instinctual reaction when that person's name comes up where that situation arises Like it's oh, you know, there's a there's a false statement that we say you have to forgive and forget and I think that's a horrible thing

20:00I think remembering past her is actually a super helpful thing And can actually prevent us from falling into that same trap in the future so Just because we remember a pastor Doesn't mean that we have you know are still in the process of forgiving or we have unforgiveness Our memory is actually a guide that God's given us to help us However, if that memory then draws out in us Those emotions and we start to ruminate or for me it just flips me back to being a child and being scared or something like that Those are good signs that and I've got some more work to do to kind of adjust On to my life I think another way is if you have somebody in your life who really cares about you They're able to see Sometimes clearer than you are right like they're able to see Hey, I think every time we talk about this or every time this situation comes up you kind of react this way Sometimes our trusted friends Spouses co-workers in life might see in us even our kids

21:04That we're still someone for goodness I know for me for so long I harbored such resentments toward resentment towards my mom like really intensely And I remember it was like you know mother's day or something like that We would always joke how difficult it was to get a card for her you know And now when I tell Stories which are not stories like true true Things that happen but stories makes it seem like I'm At least stories how I remember them things that happen in the way that I remember them I can't I have a harder time doing it now Because I and I want to apologize before I do and say mom I'm telling this to help somebody else I hope you know I love you and I forgive you whereas before I'd be like Let me just tell you yeah Because I got and you know we joke about like those of us with really good stories man We can do it verbatim We can go through the whole story and with all the little pauses and all the little

22:06blah blah blah's But it's like I don't I don't think of her like that anymore. I remember when she passed away and the beautiful Moment of her Death and the you know Jesus coming to her and it was this most beautiful experience that she had in her passing From my perspective I was with her. It was beautiful from my perspective and it was a lovely time of of Connection with her and I think of her now In heaven and fully restored and you helped me with that all those years ago of You know healing doesn't always happen on this side of things, you know, and I see her now Who she who she was meant to be you know all of the stuff that she did It's like a it's because of these boxes that we hold on to and build from in this foundation That I that it feels like the enemy is just you know Piling on to us and the next thing you know 40 years later

23:07There we are and Replicating those things sometimes because we haven't done the hard work of working through it This is what I appreciate about what you're doing Erica. This is why I think I appreciate your book even as well as that it It's that challenge for us to do that difficult work So that we can be the women and men that God has created us and designed us to be It's a little too easy to stay in the rut Then it is to do the whole to get out of that rut and to make those significant In our life Right like tell stories man. We can all do that. I can list you the way all of my family my wife everyone I've ever worked with how they've hurt me Right, but like for me to have that same list of what I've done to other people or however other people That doesn't exist right. We don't want to play that we don't want to have that podcast. Let's do the other one Yeah, let's one up. Yeah, well, let's want to be each other and what's happened to us But not let's one up each other and what we've done for sure. Oh my gosh And and I think for the unforgiveness that I carried for myself

24:10And like the shame that I would carry for things that I've done very similarly like Who do you think you are trying to be better? You know the the beating of myself and that you know when I make a mistake even now I'm more thanks to therapy and a lot of you know your help and Reading God's word and being around amazing friends and all the good things And my husband and just all the support that we have in our life because we now know we deserve it to have that kind of relationships in our lives but it's like you know I just I just don't have time for that anymore I don't I don't but but sometimes a memory will come back and it's like, you know, you just kind of like whoa Yep Yeah, you just go ahead. I think that is now as in that memory comes back It doesn't trigger us into that spiral. It's a pause We acknowledge it. We see where it's coming from and we recognize it. Yep

25:12That's because of those past hurts and then I affirm nope I work through that I moved on and now I continue going forward and you know The beautiful thing with what you're doing as well is that you're using all those past hurts stories your mom or sister To like make a positive difference for other people in that sense these memories aren't There's a line in a book that says memories are just dead men making trouble And it's a beautiful imagery of almost like these dead people coming out of the grave just causing disruption But what is more than that right these are memories that are designed or you're using them God's allowing you now to change the course for other people's lives And that's yeah for sure and and I know for me I used a lot of Ways to try to numb myself in those feelings when I would get those Emotions those intense emotions. I was a very good number Whether it was eating or drinking or working or busyness or whatever whatever it was I had a very hard time really

26:19being comfortable Feeling the discomfort of all of this stuff and um My my therapist just told me about something and I can't remember it's a poem of some sort But it's basically welcoming in these feelings and saying come on in Have a seat I'd like to hear from you What do you want to talk of what he and I was just like that's so cool because if you try to push him down and shove him down Which I was a queen at I was so good at it And it just doesn't it doesn't work that way but once you open up and talk about it and feel it and feel the terrible They and bring the light into the darkness which I do mention a lot in this book of like hiding in the corners And feeling really comfortable there And being like I don't want anybody to see this in here, but that's where Oh, you got to get in there you got to shine the light and there you got to clean it all out And then it doesn't have any power over you anymore ironically when you really talk about it. Oh my gosh Well, maybe that's a beautiful thing of having a discussion like this where

27:22Let's talk about that tough side of unforgiveness and like super honest and real This is what it looks like in our lives. This is what it looks like When we fold onto it and it's an encouragement for us then to like do that hard work of seeking that forgiveness of giving ourselves that forgiveness of freeing ourselves Of being able to live the lives that are the fullest lives that God wants us to live Yeah Well, I feel like you know all of you that are watching you know if you have any rocks like this that you're hearing around We we we welcome you to think about that and and work on releasing them and That you that you can and that you God is with you when you do that that and You know, we could probably talk about this for hours But I just feel like this is such a gift To be able to be free from the stories that have held us back for so long and that

28:25The world needs us all to be activated and moving forward To make the world a better place and so enough of this nonsense now And let's let's keep going is kind of how I'm feeling um I just I was reading the page in the book that talked about that the trap of unforgiveness and it's like Take that Satan you will hold us captive no more So I ended it and I just I I just want us all to feel that way and feel that like Not today Satan you're we're done playing this game with you now So Thank you Jonathan for being with us. I always feel like we could talk for like three hours I'm sure you have lots of notes and lots of suggestions for people If you are in the southeastern Wisconsin area and you're looking for a church home Southburg church is a beautiful place Will include information about that church Jonathan has amazing sermons. There are so many great places out there for you to get the support and love that you need

29:27You're not alone If you're going through these things. I know that this can be a very difficult Topic so if this triggered something for you if you feel um That you just need some port support ask for help. There's so many resources out there. We'll share some with you But there is help out there and you are not alone and you heard this for a reason and god loves you so much So Don't you give up So on that note We'll see you again on the next episode of the funny kind Thanks Jonathan I'll go and thanks Erica Thanks for tuning in to the funny kind with Erica Gummini where humor meets healing and inspiration meets action If this episode made you laugh think or become inspired Be sure to like share and tell a friend who could use a dose of heart and humor today And don't forget to tune in to the funny kind right here on transformation talk radio for more real talk

30:29big laughs and light bulb moments Want to connect with Erica and learn more about turning your pivotal moments into powerful growth Visit your pivotal point calm Until next time keep laughing keep loving and keep spreading a little bit of funny and a whole lot of kind